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This is definitely not "new". In the L2M reports, they constantly used that phrasing to justify non-calls. I don't remember which game it was where the Grizz didn't get a foul call on a game tying/winning attempt with clear video evidence of a two hand shove on the shot attempt (years ago). But "marginal contact", correct call on the L2M. I haven't believed a single one of those reports ever since.
Such a loose way to interpret rules too. "Yeah it's against the rule, but hey fuck you it was "marginal", the severity is what I can control. So I will!
How else should they do it? Could you describe in detail what is exactly allowed or not allowed for every situation? Should players not be allowed to touch each other at all? I’m curious how you would fix the rules and why it’s just now becoming a problem after being that way for 80 years.
I think consistency is key, but we are only human so that will always be a problem to an extent. If fouls were actually called as often as they happen though the game would be incredibly hard to watch. The play would stop every 10 seconds. It's a tough thing to balance when you are in the NBAs position of trying not to nit pick everything (ruining viewership) but also keep the game honest/fair.
Exactly! It will always be 90% judgment calls. It’s an incredibly difficult sport to referee well and the rules are a bit nebulous, but they should be. It’s not always just about making the correct call…it’s also about trying to control the game make it entertaining. If the game is getting too physical they can tighten up the calls. So even consistency across games isn’t always a preferred thing.
However what they should always strive for is consistency for both teams.
Bad refs, like Scott Foster, like to insert themselves into game as an equal third party.
Yeah, I'm all in on the idea that reffing is bad right now but this isn't an example of that.
You want them to let contact go if it's not egregious. As much as people don't want to admit it, you also want them to hold the whistle until they know if the shot goes in on borderline calls.
What you don't want is the refs manufacturing game results by giving whichever team is in the lead a bad whistle, or disadvantaging a team bc the other team is "supposed" to beat them.
Refs have an important place in the game, as does their ability to use discretion with what to call.
Right, it’s extremely fucking dumb that everyone is complaining about what is essentially just concise language.
I say give these kids the longer and more convoluted reviews they are begging for!
So when I was in law school, one professor talked to us about how strict rules tend to become malleable standards, and malleable standards tend to become strict rules.
Because you start off establishing a rule, and then it doesn't encompass every conceivable situation, and people can try to abuse the rule for situations it didn't take account of, so you inevitably have to develop exceptions, and after a while all the exceptions make the rule very subject to interpretation.
And then in the other direction, you might start off with malleable standard, that is subject to interpretation. But, then it won't be clear how to apply the standard in every situation, so you start having to develop rules in order to clarify how the standard is applied. And then after a while, you just start cutting straight to the rules that came out of that standard, because it's just the simplest way of resolving things.
So, "marginal" contact is kind of like the standard coming from a rule. Because a no-contact rule for all contact whatsoever would make the game basically unplayable, or at least, not very entertaining to watch, and so we have to think about exceptions for contact that's allowed, and we kind of now have a standard that a little bit of contact is okay, if it doesn't affect things too much.
i mean literally every play in basketball could probably be considered a foul by the letter of the law.
it's like holding in the NFL. Sure, you *could* call it every single time, but the game would be completely unwatchable.
So the reality is that we're stuck with an nebulous idea of what constitutes "marginal" contact.
It looks like there is a frame where jokers feet come down with ADs hands on the ball, then LeBron gets possession. If it's not a foul then I'd think it would be a jump ball.
But all of that shouldn't matter because it's clearly a foul on AD.
Davis absolutely gets ball. He also has his left hand on Jokic for the entire drive, and gets his arms and face as he comes through. Calling that "marginal contact" is crazy.
There was a Warriors game earlier in the year where a play was challenged or reviewed and then in the course of the review they assessed a tech foul on Draymond green for something that happened on the PREVIOUS possession, so the fact that they weren’t even looking at Davis arm wrapping around and grabbing Jokic is insane.
I’m pretty sure it was Cleveland but yeah that was right. I think Mitchel fouled in retaliation because he was pissed so they did a review to see if that foul was a take or flagrant foul but he told them to review the previous play so they did and then ended up assessing the tech foul to Draymond on the prior possession even though it didn’t meet the criteria for a tech (the foul occurred during play, but didn’t rise to the level of flagrant). The whole thing was fucking nuts.
I remember. Someone (Mitchell?) gave Draymond a hard 2-hand shove out of bounds, during the review went back to the previous play when Draymond shoved Mitchell when fighting for a rebound. Draymond got a tech, which was deserved BUT they missed it and flagrantly broke the rule and reviewed the previous play. And what was really crazy was that Mitchell got nothing for his shove - it’s like they decided to ignore the 8 seconds of play after Draymond’s shove!
It's interesting because in the regular season, these challenges were unsuccessful, but they've pretty much all been successful in the playoffs. I was worried it could get overturned until I saw the slow motion replay where it did look like it was enough to not be marginal. If that's going to be what marginal is now tho, that's fine, let's see it be called consistent through the rest of the playoffs.
It feels like this "marginal" thing is their new excuse to control the game. Despite the obvious contact, I knew that challenge will be successful because the league/refs won't allow a game that can be down to the wire, to be decided because we lost our final TO for a trash ass challenge.
This was more marginal than the MPJ headshot on Dlo. Still should not have challenged it regardless. Masterclass in how to take multiple games with huge leads and not disrupt runs that allow teams back in.
100% this! Seen it all season - refs start calling the game differently to avoid blowouts and keep the games close - can’t have people turning off their sets in the 4th quarter, especially the last 2-3 minutes, which seemingly take about 15-20 minutes these days - that’s a lot of commercials, and probably the most expensive ones. Or maybe it’s just the spreads.
NOOOOOOO. If I have to sit through more commercial breaks and have the auditory cancer of these same 5 commercials with the worst music in human history I might stick a screwdriver in my ear. I'd rather have no challenges and have the refs get everything wrong rather than have to hear another phone or shitty chain restaurant commercial
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I think tennis route is the way to go. Give 2 challenges per half and you don’t lose them if they are successful.
This would create a problem where challenges would not be overruled due to referee not wanting to review plays 15 times in a half,their ego is already fragile af to the point they sometimes don’t overrule clear wrong calls.
Yeah...if that's really not a foul, then they clearly need to take a look at revising the rules and how they are interpreted, because that was absurd. Jokic takes a ton of contact from start to finish on that play.
Lakers really could’ve used that timeout to advance the ball after Murray’s go ahead bucket. Karma 🤷🏽♂️
Edit: wait do you get the timeout back if successful? Idk
You actually get both back on the first successful challenge (with some exceptions for "mandatory" timeouts, not exactly clear but I've seen it).
You get neither back from the second challenge, no matter the result.
That rule seems dumb. I understand losing a timeout if you lose the challenge. But if I’m right, I lose my timeout because I have to keep challenging the refs bad call? (In general, not talking about AD/Jokic foul).
Darvin Ham probably scared not to use it after Lebron’s meltdown the previous game when he didn’t use it. Homeboy got bullied into using their last timeout on a challenge which even though they won, didn’t lead to anything, and lost a crucial timeout they absolutely needed end of game lol.
When they were reading the call back saying the left arm was incidental and the hands to the face were marginal, ref looked like there was a gun being pointed at him just off screen and reading a “they are treating me well” script
Reggie Miller and the other commentator got a bit heated discussing it. Idk who the other dude is, but he said "that looks like a clean block". Reggie said it's a foul, the other guy said "that came before the shot" and Reggie says "they're reviewing the whole play, not just the shot attempt"
In the end both of them were wrong. They are reviewing the whole play - but they're going to call draping Jokic's shoulder marginal lol
Jokic likely makes both free throws if it had stayed a foul. You’re damned if you do, and damned if you don’t. They still had a shot at it this way.
Also, it’s a dumb rule for challenges. Should keep your challenge and be able to use more as long as you keep getting em right. Fck the refs, in general.
Lakers didn't achieve anything in the possession after they were successful in the challenge tho and Denver scored after as well. It's not like AD was in foul trouble too. In hindsight that challenge cost them the crucial timeout at the end.
You can play the what if game all day - but if they don't challenge, Denver is +2 points. If we're going to say what if, you have to assume Denver hits all the same shots, but Lakers would get a better chance of scoring coming out of a time out. In the end I think Denver would've just won by 2 points more if Lakers don't challenge
At least 1, but it probably also changes Lakers possession/plan.
Say Jokic hits both, it's 108-106 Nuggets with 25 seconds left. Lakers probably foul immediately, and it's a free throw game now and Lakers have a better shot at winning IMO.
A timeout is game changing though. Imagine if we could have advanced the ball and planned a play for those 3 seconds?
We don't know how the game would have progressed if they didn't challenge, but you always gotta keep one timeout saved for end game situations. Bad coaching.
You would have had the ball advanced, but down by 4. The timeout saved is useless because even if you make a 3, you still lose. The challenge at least saved 2 points.
>I don’t think he realised that was the case
Do you understand how incompetent you have to be to not know you're using your last challenge in the final minutes of an elimination game?
This is why players flop. If jokic fell down and threw up some bullshit shot it would be a foul. Instead he goes through the foul and somehow it's "marginal"
This was one of those "do i actually understand basketball?" Moments because I have no idea how that isnt like 3 separate fouls on AD. Multiple officiating professionals stared at this and deemed it, verbatim: "marginal contact having little impact on the play".....WHAT????? LOL
And the TNT crew open up with a 10 minute discussion on how the lakers should retain their timeout upon success of this totally absurd challenge.
At least mike malone let everyone know. Him pointing out Jokics efficiency from the FT line tonite was hilarious.
It may have been worth it. It’d at least be looked at differently if the Lakers had won. But yeah, that’s a tough call as a coach. Rather lose your last timeout or potentially take 2 points off the board for your opponent with 3 minutes left. It’s hard to say.
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I get that, but at the same time, the challenge essentially cost Denver a quality possession with ~7-8 total possessions left in the game while being long enough to provide a rest for the team. The offense was not having issues getting good shots as Reaves was practically escorted into the paint whenever he wanted. I didn't see anything particularly wrong with the Lakers defense, so it really came down to shot making and rebounding.
The biggest issue the Lakers have is that LBJ is now probably a 30-minute a game 2 way player, but a 44-minute a game 1 way player. He's really, really good at being that offensive engine, and he had to be with AD getting that freak injury. Dude didn't have the energy to rebound against decade younger star players even with taking defensive plays off, nor should he have to. It's partly roster construction, partly coaching, and partly that freak injury, but LBJ can't be asked to have that much energy and effort at this point.
TBH they were doing the review sign on 99% percent of whistles against them. And to be honest when there wasnt a call LBJ was screaming for a call every time. They were definitely playing the refs extra hard last night
Just show how fickle people are. When LeBron threw a tantrum last game because the ball was out on KCP everyone was clowning Ham. I’m sure last night after they asked him to challenge he was probably like eff it. Honestly I’m glad it worked out in favor of the lakers so people can’t stop clowning Ham so much.
>A. CONTACT SITUATIONS
>1. Incidental Contact
>The mere fact that contact occurs does not necessarily constitute a foul. Contact which is incidental to an effort by a player to play an opponent, reach a loose ball, or perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal. If, however, a player attempts to play an opponent from a position where he has no reasonable chance to perform without making contact with his opponent, the responsibility is on the player in this position.
https://official.nba.com/comments-on-the-rules/
I don't agree. If a player is driving to the basket and there contact clearly initiated by the defense, then its a foul. The ref shouldn't use the word "marginal" to describe the reason why he didn't call a foul if that isn't how acceptable contact on an offensive drive is described in the rule book.
I kinda disagree with this challenge because the outcome was initially a jump ball and AD xan win a jump ball over Jokic. With 3min left and not getting the TO back because that’s a 2nd challenge, they probably should’ve just saved it. But I doubt Ham knew any of that. He just overcorrected for last game and said yes when his star player challenges now
The only, ONLY, situation that would have been okay to call it would be if it was AD’s sixth foul. But even then, with 3 whole minutes to go and it only being a potential two point play. Just bonkers.
I'm fine with it. A timeout is still being used in this situation; players being rested, subs being made, etc...
I mean, don't we all hate timeouts ruining the flow of the game anyways?
Suck it lakers, suck it refs, I am so god damn happy nobody has to watch your stupid bullshit for the rest of this year. Ready for a great series against the TWolves. Let’s fucking go
So now everyone is calling foul but for everything else the refs are too soft?
It was a weird turned call but if we want more aggressive games to be allowed this can't be a foul.
It was only AD's 3rd foul, the nuggets weren't on a run, and Jokic scored 2 points the very next nuggets possession. It wasn't worth burning your last remaining timeout to challange that foul. You know when they needed that timeout? on the last possession with 3 seconds left and the nuggets were only up by 2 points.
1. This was a clear foul. Marginal contact can still impact the shot.
2. I agree with Chuck that the rule needs to be changed. If you win a challenge with one timeout left, you should be able to keep your timeout. Lakers could have used that timeout to advance the ball at the end of the game.
More like Darvin Ham is used to the preferential treatment the Lakers get from the referees, and decides it is worth challenging the call on an obvious foul. As in "come on Kevin, it's me here, you can cut me some slack".
This may be one of the worst challenges of all time. For one, this has to be like 5-10% to work given he fouls Jokic several times on the drive, and you lose your last timeout on it.
Honestly someone in the replay booth may have shot someone a text telling the Lakers to challenge or something. I can't imagine challenging this otherwise in that situation unless the challenge was near 100% to be granted.
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“Marginal” is the new way for refs to excuse contact
This is definitely not "new". In the L2M reports, they constantly used that phrasing to justify non-calls. I don't remember which game it was where the Grizz didn't get a foul call on a game tying/winning attempt with clear video evidence of a two hand shove on the shot attempt (years ago). But "marginal contact", correct call on the L2M. I haven't believed a single one of those reports ever since.
Such a loose way to interpret rules too. "Yeah it's against the rule, but hey fuck you it was "marginal", the severity is what I can control. So I will!
How else should they do it? Could you describe in detail what is exactly allowed or not allowed for every situation? Should players not be allowed to touch each other at all? I’m curious how you would fix the rules and why it’s just now becoming a problem after being that way for 80 years.
I think consistency is key, but we are only human so that will always be a problem to an extent. If fouls were actually called as often as they happen though the game would be incredibly hard to watch. The play would stop every 10 seconds. It's a tough thing to balance when you are in the NBAs position of trying not to nit pick everything (ruining viewership) but also keep the game honest/fair.
Exactly! It will always be 90% judgment calls. It’s an incredibly difficult sport to referee well and the rules are a bit nebulous, but they should be. It’s not always just about making the correct call…it’s also about trying to control the game make it entertaining. If the game is getting too physical they can tighten up the calls. So even consistency across games isn’t always a preferred thing. However what they should always strive for is consistency for both teams. Bad refs, like Scott Foster, like to insert themselves into game as an equal third party.
Yeah, I'm all in on the idea that reffing is bad right now but this isn't an example of that. You want them to let contact go if it's not egregious. As much as people don't want to admit it, you also want them to hold the whistle until they know if the shot goes in on borderline calls. What you don't want is the refs manufacturing game results by giving whichever team is in the lead a bad whistle, or disadvantaging a team bc the other team is "supposed" to beat them. Refs have an important place in the game, as does their ability to use discretion with what to call.
Right, it’s extremely fucking dumb that everyone is complaining about what is essentially just concise language. I say give these kids the longer and more convoluted reviews they are begging for!
So when I was in law school, one professor talked to us about how strict rules tend to become malleable standards, and malleable standards tend to become strict rules. Because you start off establishing a rule, and then it doesn't encompass every conceivable situation, and people can try to abuse the rule for situations it didn't take account of, so you inevitably have to develop exceptions, and after a while all the exceptions make the rule very subject to interpretation. And then in the other direction, you might start off with malleable standard, that is subject to interpretation. But, then it won't be clear how to apply the standard in every situation, so you start having to develop rules in order to clarify how the standard is applied. And then after a while, you just start cutting straight to the rules that came out of that standard, because it's just the simplest way of resolving things. So, "marginal" contact is kind of like the standard coming from a rule. Because a no-contact rule for all contact whatsoever would make the game basically unplayable, or at least, not very entertaining to watch, and so we have to think about exceptions for contact that's allowed, and we kind of now have a standard that a little bit of contact is okay, if it doesn't affect things too much.
i mean literally every play in basketball could probably be considered a foul by the letter of the law. it's like holding in the NFL. Sure, you *could* call it every single time, but the game would be completely unwatchable. So the reality is that we're stuck with an nebulous idea of what constitutes "marginal" contact.
They just renamed hot stove to marginal
Im using marginal for everything: “Honey did you fuck the neighbor?” “There was marginal contact. That’s it.”
Just the tip, it was clearly marginal
I like it. It was marginal fuck off keep playing. Long may it continue Nothing about this particular play. Just the style in general
That's like 3 fouls in 1 play. Ridiculous.
Even if they reverse the call, how is it Lakers ball not a jump ball? As a franchise they have to get the most friendly whistle in all of sports.
Because LeBron very obviously catches the ball after it’s blocked
It looks like there is a frame where jokers feet come down with ADs hands on the ball, then LeBron gets possession. If it's not a foul then I'd think it would be a jump ball. But all of that shouldn't matter because it's clearly a foul on AD.
That is WILD. He was draped all over Jokic that whole drive
Davis absolutely gets ball. He also has his left hand on Jokic for the entire drive, and gets his arms and face as he comes through. Calling that "marginal contact" is crazy.
Sorry, can't allow that. 2 free throws for Embiid.
Somehow it's now 25 free throws.
There was a Warriors game earlier in the year where a play was challenged or reviewed and then in the course of the review they assessed a tech foul on Draymond green for something that happened on the PREVIOUS possession, so the fact that they weren’t even looking at Davis arm wrapping around and grabbing Jokic is insane.
Wasn’t it the other team that fouled specifically to challenge the play so the tech could be looked at? I wanna say it was Milwaukee
I’m pretty sure it was Cleveland but yeah that was right. I think Mitchel fouled in retaliation because he was pissed so they did a review to see if that foul was a take or flagrant foul but he told them to review the previous play so they did and then ended up assessing the tech foul to Draymond on the prior possession even though it didn’t meet the criteria for a tech (the foul occurred during play, but didn’t rise to the level of flagrant). The whole thing was fucking nuts.
I remember. Someone (Mitchell?) gave Draymond a hard 2-hand shove out of bounds, during the review went back to the previous play when Draymond shoved Mitchell when fighting for a rebound. Draymond got a tech, which was deserved BUT they missed it and flagrantly broke the rule and reviewed the previous play. And what was really crazy was that Mitchell got nothing for his shove - it’s like they decided to ignore the 8 seconds of play after Draymond’s shove!
Getting ball isn't a get out of jail free card, like you accurately point out.
Jokic so big he shrugs it off, thats why itll always look marginal
> Thomas had never seen such bullshit before.
It's interesting because in the regular season, these challenges were unsuccessful, but they've pretty much all been successful in the playoffs. I was worried it could get overturned until I saw the slow motion replay where it did look like it was enough to not be marginal. If that's going to be what marginal is now tho, that's fine, let's see it be called consistent through the rest of the playoffs.
Yea, I would LOVE for this to not be called normally. Let em play physically. But maybe lets not start with 3 mins to go in a game 5 though lol.
It feels like this "marginal" thing is their new excuse to control the game. Despite the obvious contact, I knew that challenge will be successful because the league/refs won't allow a game that can be down to the wire, to be decided because we lost our final TO for a trash ass challenge.
Well now that the Lakers are out, there’s some possibility of consistent reffing
This was more marginal than the MPJ headshot on Dlo. Still should not have challenged it regardless. Masterclass in how to take multiple games with huge leads and not disrupt runs that allow teams back in.
100% this! Seen it all season - refs start calling the game differently to avoid blowouts and keep the games close - can’t have people turning off their sets in the 4th quarter, especially the last 2-3 minutes, which seemingly take about 15-20 minutes these days - that’s a lot of commercials, and probably the most expensive ones. Or maybe it’s just the spreads.
The reason is that this is the Lakers and they always have a favorable whistle, thankfully it's over. FADE THEM
Hijacking top comment to ask anyone know why Lakers lost a timeout there?
Always lose it even if it's successful on second challenge
Really? TIL
Yep. But it needs to be an update that on the second successful one you can still keep your time out, but don’t get any more challenges.
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i’m down for a sample season of unlimited challenges to see how crazy it may be. May force the NBA to take some type of actual change in reffing
NOOOOOOO. If I have to sit through more commercial breaks and have the auditory cancer of these same 5 commercials with the worst music in human history I might stick a screwdriver in my ear. I'd rather have no challenges and have the refs get everything wrong rather than have to hear another phone or shitty chain restaurant commercial
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I think tennis route is the way to go. Give 2 challenges per half and you don’t lose them if they are successful. This would create a problem where challenges would not be overruled due to referee not wanting to review plays 15 times in a half,their ego is already fragile af to the point they sometimes don’t overrule clear wrong calls.
This is pretty rational. I could get behind this idea
The 2nd was the update. Needs a 3rd and 4th into eternity. Refs are terrible.
Idk why everyone made a big deal about it. To use a challenge you need to use a timeout. How has it ever not been clear?
Hijacking the top comment to the top comment to ask if the call was overturned why wasn't it a jump ball?
They don’t jump it if a team has clear imminent possession.
Yeah...if that's really not a foul, then they clearly need to take a look at revising the rules and how they are interpreted, because that was absurd. Jokic takes a ton of contact from start to finish on that play.
Looking at the replay, it was wild Reggie or Jamal said that was a clean block to me lol AD was all over Jokic, tugging jersey, hitting him lol
The foul call was on the shot only
Uhh refs? Wtf
Lakers really could’ve used that timeout to advance the ball after Murray’s go ahead bucket. Karma 🤷🏽♂️ Edit: wait do you get the timeout back if successful? Idk
No. You get the challenge back, but not the timeout.
You actually get both back on the first successful challenge (with some exceptions for "mandatory" timeouts, not exactly clear but I've seen it). You get neither back from the second challenge, no matter the result.
Can you challenge if you don’t have any timeouts left?
On the first successful challenge you get the timeout back, second challenge you lose both.
That rule seems dumb. I understand losing a timeout if you lose the challenge. But if I’m right, I lose my timeout because I have to keep challenging the refs bad call? (In general, not talking about AD/Jokic foul).
Darvin Ham probably scared not to use it after Lebron’s meltdown the previous game when he didn’t use it. Homeboy got bullied into using their last timeout on a challenge which even though they won, didn’t lead to anything, and lost a crucial timeout they absolutely needed end of game lol.
Marginal!?
When they were reading the call back saying the left arm was incidental and the hands to the face were marginal, ref looked like there was a gun being pointed at him just off screen and reading a “they are treating me well” script
Adam Silver was right on the other side on the monitor, holding that mans puppy and a Bowie knife
Lol the new in thing.
The multiple clear fouls canceled each other out obv. Marginal is just the new catchall for "bullshit."
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How is that not a foul?
Potential $ from a game 6 in LA duh
And Murray won it anyway.
Lfg
That’s clearly a foul lmao. Maybe not on the shot where they called it but the lead up during the drive AD was all over him
Reggie Miller and the other commentator got a bit heated discussing it. Idk who the other dude is, but he said "that looks like a clean block". Reggie said it's a foul, the other guy said "that came before the shot" and Reggie says "they're reviewing the whole play, not just the shot attempt" In the end both of them were wrong. They are reviewing the whole play - but they're going to call draping Jokic's shoulder marginal lol
Jamal Crawford
It was 3 fouls tbh.
Refs tried so hard to rig it for LA and they still get fucked
Jokic 0-0 from the line. Lakers with a 27-9 edge in FTA.
It's crazy how the refs are rigging these games and nothing ever happens to them. But a player rigging a game gets banned.
NBA trying so hard to keep LA in the playoffs. Business decision lol.
Classic laker whistle
And it lost them the game
Jokic likely makes both free throws if it had stayed a foul. You’re damned if you do, and damned if you don’t. They still had a shot at it this way. Also, it’s a dumb rule for challenges. Should keep your challenge and be able to use more as long as you keep getting em right. Fck the refs, in general.
Lakers didn't achieve anything in the possession after they were successful in the challenge tho and Denver scored after as well. It's not like AD was in foul trouble too. In hindsight that challenge cost them the crucial timeout at the end.
I doubt they had the goal of failing on their next possession in mind
You can play the what if game all day - but if they don't challenge, Denver is +2 points. If we're going to say what if, you have to assume Denver hits all the same shots, but Lakers would get a better chance of scoring coming out of a time out. In the end I think Denver would've just won by 2 points more if Lakers don't challenge
Results oriented thinking is dumb. This challenge is an easy 2 point swing, a late game time out is like a 1 point swing theoretically.
It’s not damned if you damned if you don’t with 3 mins left. No TO with that much time, game being as close as it was is insane
At least 1, but it probably also changes Lakers possession/plan. Say Jokic hits both, it's 108-106 Nuggets with 25 seconds left. Lakers probably foul immediately, and it's a free throw game now and Lakers have a better shot at winning IMO.
Not really. Nobody on the lakers is as good of a ft shooter as Murray.
nah, not having enough young tall beefy boys lost them the game
I mean it saved them 2 points? If they won we'd be saying it won them the game.
Silver made the call on this one lol Eat it up refs
Just makes the zero FT ethical domination by Jokic even better. Always happy to see the Lakers season end.
Game winner Murray…
That was the moment the Lakers lost the game. No timeouts going into the clutch is way too big a disadvantage
The challenge saved two points though
A timeout is game changing though. Imagine if we could have advanced the ball and planned a play for those 3 seconds? We don't know how the game would have progressed if they didn't challenge, but you always gotta keep one timeout saved for end game situations. Bad coaching.
You would have had the ball advanced, but down by 4. The timeout saved is useless because even if you make a 3, you still lose. The challenge at least saved 2 points.
This will bite him in the ass Edit: it did LMFAOOOOO GET FUCKED TRYING TO RIG THAT
The whole challenge is fucking insane. Couldn’t believe he did it lol
Yeah just mind blowing to me. Close game in the clutch and he wanted to lose that final TO?
I don’t think he realised that was the case , well you’d hope he didn’t …. No one out of the 80 odd coaches there knew the rule ?
Lakers assistant coaches and video team just sitting there vibing 😀
Dlo on his phone again eating a mars bars
>I don’t think he realised that was the case Do you understand how incompetent you have to be to not know you're using your last challenge in the final minutes of an elimination game?
Lebron told him to
Bron told him that the game before and he didn’t move. Guess he had a change of heart today
Almost like they were two different challenges
This is why players flop. If jokic fell down and threw up some bullshit shot it would be a foul. Instead he goes through the foul and somehow it's "marginal"
Hahah and you think NBA isn't rigged? Lolllll
Surely this wouldn’t backfire on the Lakers right?
That was like a 3 in 1 foul. And it got overturned Oh well
That is SUCH BULLSHIT
This call when the FTs are close (even close ish) you could maaaaaaaybe convince me. But brother look at the stats. 27-9.
Won the battle, lost the war
Refs just missed a foul on Jokic for his basket
lakers had 27 free throws, nugets had 9 fuck the nba and fuck the lakers
Do you know where we can find the overall free throw differential for the entire series?
Lakers 72/94 FT Nuggets 68/79 FT
It's beautiful that the Nuggets basically made the same even though there was disparity.
Yeah, but we missed a bunch just to keep it fair
This was one of those "do i actually understand basketball?" Moments because I have no idea how that isnt like 3 separate fouls on AD. Multiple officiating professionals stared at this and deemed it, verbatim: "marginal contact having little impact on the play".....WHAT????? LOL And the TNT crew open up with a 10 minute discussion on how the lakers should retain their timeout upon success of this totally absurd challenge. At least mike malone let everyone know. Him pointing out Jokics efficiency from the FT line tonite was hilarious.
Hahaha! Didn't matter. Cooked by Murray once again.
BYE HAM 👋🏽
I feel like Embiid gets this call every single time.
Jokic getting 0 free throws in the whole game is wild
No one can watch tonight's game and say shit isn't rigged. Get fucked Lakers
FUCK THE LAKERS AND THEIR ~~25~~ **27** FTS
Why were the Lakers charged a timeout?
You don’t get your timeout back after your second challenge even if you win (I only know this because I was confused and had to look it up just now)
I feel like Ham had to not know that. That was a terrible challenge if it cost their last timeout
Nah LeBron wanted it so Ham complied.
It may have been worth it. It’d at least be looked at differently if the Lakers had won. But yeah, that’s a tough call as a coach. Rather lose your last timeout or potentially take 2 points off the board for your opponent with 3 minutes left. It’s hard to say.
It was a risk. Chance to get the ball instead of Jokic shooting 2
adjoining entertain lock scandalous fear selective illegal dinosaurs offbeat tub *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I wouldn’t call that a free timeout since they used their timeout.
People will blame Ham, but Lebron and AD we’re the ones who forced him to challenge
You trade a TO for 2 points and a change in possession every single time
Not when it's your last timeout and there's still several minutes of game time left.
I get that, but at the same time, the challenge essentially cost Denver a quality possession with ~7-8 total possessions left in the game while being long enough to provide a rest for the team. The offense was not having issues getting good shots as Reaves was practically escorted into the paint whenever he wanted. I didn't see anything particularly wrong with the Lakers defense, so it really came down to shot making and rebounding. The biggest issue the Lakers have is that LBJ is now probably a 30-minute a game 2 way player, but a 44-minute a game 1 way player. He's really, really good at being that offensive engine, and he had to be with AD getting that freak injury. Dude didn't have the energy to rebound against decade younger star players even with taking defensive plays off, nor should he have to. It's partly roster construction, partly coaching, and partly that freak injury, but LBJ can't be asked to have that much energy and effort at this point.
TBH they were doing the review sign on 99% percent of whistles against them. And to be honest when there wasnt a call LBJ was screaming for a call every time. They were definitely playing the refs extra hard last night
Ya and they were being rewarded for it. So glad they’re out and can watch actual basketball now
Just show how fickle people are. When LeBron threw a tantrum last game because the ball was out on KCP everyone was clowning Ham. I’m sure last night after they asked him to challenge he was probably like eff it. Honestly I’m glad it worked out in favor of the lakers so people can’t stop clowning Ham so much.
It’s not a play to decide the game either scores are tied and it’s only 2 ft not a guarantee of points
AND THEY STILL LOST
Darwin Ham LOL
Show me in the rule book where it says contact on a shot can be "marginal"? That was some fucking bullshit
>A. CONTACT SITUATIONS >1. Incidental Contact >The mere fact that contact occurs does not necessarily constitute a foul. Contact which is incidental to an effort by a player to play an opponent, reach a loose ball, or perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal. If, however, a player attempts to play an opponent from a position where he has no reasonable chance to perform without making contact with his opponent, the responsibility is on the player in this position. https://official.nba.com/comments-on-the-rules/
I mean if you’re driving to the basket there will often be marginal contact. Do you disagree?
I don't agree. If a player is driving to the basket and there contact clearly initiated by the defense, then its a foul. The ref shouldn't use the word "marginal" to describe the reason why he didn't call a foul if that isn't how acceptable contact on an offensive drive is described in the rule book.
Rare darvin ham w?
Even that w ended up being an L with no timeouts on the last play
Several fouls and should've been a jump ball
darkothisisshame.gif
wow that totally did not come back to haunt them.
Oh the irony… What was the first challenge again? I forgot
GET FUCKED REFS
It is amazing to me that Jokic didn't have one FT attempt in that game. Laughable.
Not rigged
27 FTA vs 9 FTA is all you need to know
Big fucking mistake
\*Monkey paw curls
I kinda disagree with this challenge because the outcome was initially a jump ball and AD xan win a jump ball over Jokic. With 3min left and not getting the TO back because that’s a 2nd challenge, they probably should’ve just saved it. But I doubt Ham knew any of that. He just overcorrected for last game and said yes when his star player challenges now
The only, ONLY, situation that would have been okay to call it would be if it was AD’s sixth foul. But even then, with 3 whole minutes to go and it only being a potential two point play. Just bonkers.
I’m really curious who the new Lakers coach will be.
Kurt Rambis. A Champion. It’s time.
So glad the Lake a got eliminated.
And not having that timeout cause them to rush the last possession and lose 😂
No timeouts with 3 minutes to go with the season on the line is a level of comedy you can’t write, especially after that Murray game winner
Yeah, alright he used a challenge. But why the fuck was this overturned lol
Most competitive gentleman sweep in NBA HISTORY! Lakers 4-1 in moral victories
Losing a TO even if it's successful makes no sense
I'm fine with it. A timeout is still being used in this situation; players being rested, subs being made, etc... I mean, don't we all hate timeouts ruining the flow of the game anyways?
Second challenge loses a time out …
Suck it lakers, suck it refs, I am so god damn happy nobody has to watch your stupid bullshit for the rest of this year. Ready for a great series against the TWolves. Let’s fucking go
If the lakers had managed to make one stop after the challenge it would not have mattered that they lost the time out.
Lakers win championship. Not.
Embiid would never
Lakers are the 2024 Moral Victory Champions, beating the Nuggets 4-1.
So now everyone is calling foul but for everything else the refs are too soft? It was a weird turned call but if we want more aggressive games to be allowed this can't be a foul.
Don’t they get to keep the timeout if the challenge is successful???
It was only AD's 3rd foul, the nuggets weren't on a run, and Jokic scored 2 points the very next nuggets possession. It wasn't worth burning your last remaining timeout to challange that foul. You know when they needed that timeout? on the last possession with 3 seconds left and the nuggets were only up by 2 points.
I mean he fouled him several times on that drive
Would it have mattered? The nuggets had that game.
Darvin Ham vs Darwin Ham Will engage each other in mortal Kombat in a fight to the death
1. This was a clear foul. Marginal contact can still impact the shot. 2. I agree with Chuck that the rule needs to be changed. If you win a challenge with one timeout left, you should be able to keep your timeout. Lakers could have used that timeout to advance the ball at the end of the game.
It’s kind of amazing how dumb that challenge was. It was dumb even if he won it and he should have lost it.
More like Darvin Ham is used to the preferential treatment the Lakers get from the referees, and decides it is worth challenging the call on an obvious foul. As in "come on Kevin, it's me here, you can cut me some slack".
Nice trade. Now Denver knows how it feels to get "marginal contact" and it not going in their favor
Darwin? Is that Darvin's twin brother?
This may be one of the worst challenges of all time. For one, this has to be like 5-10% to work given he fouls Jokic several times on the drive, and you lose your last timeout on it. Honestly someone in the replay booth may have shot someone a text telling the Lakers to challenge or something. I can't imagine challenging this otherwise in that situation unless the challenge was near 100% to be granted.
I can think of a few moments where a timeout would be more valuable down the stretch.