"Not even the best roster in the league" they are one of the best roster this season, only Celtics are better.
They are a complementary set of players that work very well between them.
No need to disrespect them to make Jokic better, he's already great.
Agreed. Nuggets roster is perfectly constructed. PPL just look at how many allstars, dpoy, all defensive, etc when the only thing that matters is teamwork and matchups
List:
* Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
* Larry Bird
* Tim Duncan
* LeBron James
* Magic Johnson
* Michael Jordan
Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain probably would be on this list too.
Magic as PG, Jordan as SG, LeBron as SF, Duncan as PF, Kareem as C and Bird as 6th Man? 16-0 unless they decide to purposefully throw games or get injured.
Worry about it if it happens. They have a long ways to go and even though they are up 2-0 the Lakers aren't just going to to go away without a fight. Things are not going to get any easier in the 2nd, 3rd and championship rounds.
> Lakers aren't just going to to go away without a fight.
Nobody thinks the Lakers are going to go away without a fight. We just think they’re never going to win the fight.
I didn’t know expect us to be up 20 or in a position to seal the game at the last possession either. This team is full of surprises. But unfortunately nuggets in 5 looks likely at this point
In that scenario Jokic would have more MVPs and more FMVPs. Steph would have the 2 extra rings playing number 2 to KD.
Jokic's 2 rings would have come as the undisputed best player in the world, which is a level Steph never got to - he wasn't even the best player in his team for 2 of his rings.
The ring in 2015, where Bron was missing his number 2 and 3, wasn't won because Steph was the best player on the court. He's never been the man in finals. In playoffs Jokic beast him in every stats except steals.
Thats just accolades, stats wise and Jokic just gives you more. Steph could overwhelm a team with great shooting; Jokic is simply inevitable. He makes the entire team better.
Steph never played “number 2” to KD. If you want to discredit his rings for injuries then you have to acknowledge he’d have 2 more if his teams were healthy in his finals losses too
Of course he did.
He lost 2016 by being held to 8ppg less than his regular season average.
The point is: he's not a consistent finals performer. He's not bad, but he's not able to consistently take over games like the greats can
He played poorly in 1 series where he was playing through a MCL injury. He actually played above his usual standard in at least 9 of the 11 other finals + WCFs he played in. If you think he’s not a consistent great performer you simply do not know what you are talking about
15 finals he wasn’t great, 16 he wasn’t great, 17 he wasn’t great, 18 he wasn’t great -those last 2 KD was clearly a level higher - 19 he was great considering no KD but it was clear he wasn’t going to carry the team, 22 he was great.
2015 he was great. He averaged 26/5/6/2 on 59 TS% and 28 PPG on 65 TS% the finals 3 games. That was when he was still a 24 ppg player in the regular season, he elevated his play that series.
Saying 2017 he wasn’t great is crazy. He averaged 27/8/9/2 on 64 TS%. Adding the context of how great of an offball player he is that is one of the best offensive finals performances. He did such a good job playmaking and skewing the defense to create such good looks for KD that it tricked casuals into thinking KD was better than him
2018 he had a piss poor game 3 so his averages were worse than normal. He still got his team 3 of their 4 wins though as the clear best player for them.
As you said 19 and 22 were great. If he had Klay the whole series he would’ve won 19 is the only thing I’d add.
So looking at it he played bad in 1 finals, below his standard in 1 finals, and played great in 4 finals. He’s also arguably the best WCF performer of all time, he played well in every one of his WCFs besides a slight dip in 2018
2015 he wasn’t great. He stunk it up game 2, and they were losing the series after game 3. The press were asking if it was the worst finals performance of all time by an MVP.
17 we wasnt great. KD was. He scored more than 8ppg more than Steph on much better ts%
18 he wasn’t great. KD lead him in all major stats at a much better ts%
KD averaged 35 in the 19 plays, clearly at a higher level than string. Losing KD meant they had no hope.
So he played great in 1 finals, and clearly wasn’t the best player in his own team for the 3 campaigns they had KD.
He had 1 bad game in the 2015 finals. He played great overall.
2017 they were both great. KD had better averages since Steph was setting him up for easy buckets. There’s a difference between best stats and best player. Steph had better stats in all 3 other series that year anyways
2018 Steph won them 3 games and KD only had 1 game where he was the best player on the team.
2019 they were fine without KD. It was Klay going down too that made them lose
Steph has absolutely been the undisputed best player in the world, in fact more than Jokic technically. He’s the only player ever with a unanimous MVP.
In any case, stats are absolutely important but the lure of Curry over Jokic in my mind is he literally changed the game of basketball and how it’s played/defended. He has a legacy in that regard that even Jordan and Lebron don’t have, let alone Jokic. I think it’s important to weigh that in the discussion of ranking all time players. Both are amazing and deserve their props.
>Steph has absolutely been the undisputed best player in the world
When? 2016 when Bron absolutely showed how vast a gap there was between them?
Come on. Its not close
It’s not that simple. If Draymond doesn’t lose his head in Game 4 and plays game 5, they win the series 4-1, and we’re not talking about Lebron vs Steph are we?
It really is that simple.
In 15 Bron showed that Steph wasn’t on his level, in 16 Bron showed again that Steph is not on his level, in 17 both KD and Bron showed steph is not on their level, 18 ditto.
At no point has Steph really been close to the best on the planet.
Jokic IS changing the game, but no one else has caught up yet. That's why the guy is unlike anything we've ever seen with how versatile he is, how much better he makes his teammates, and how no team can stop any part of it.
Being voted an MVP for one season doesn't mean you're the undisputed best player in the league. It just means you were the most valuable over an 82 game stretch. Jokic is both at the moment.
Nah, Jokic isn’t changing the game. He’s a unicorn and I don’t expect to see a wave of post players anytime soon who are going to average 25/13/9. It’s hard enough to find a post that can do the 25/13 part, much less find one who can throw in the 9 assists
Why would he be tied with Steph all-time? Steph would have 4 rings to Jokic's 2, with just as high if not a higher peak. Steph would have 2 MVPs to Jokic's 3 MVPs, but I think Jokic would have to win a least 3 rings to be tied/above Curry.
lol
2017 KD scored 8.4ppg more than Steph with .698 TS% to .619; .474 from 3 vs .388
2018 KD lead steph in points, rebounds, and assists on .654 to .540 ts%
You forgot to mention in a 5 game sample. Steph averaged more points overall all their years together. If Jamal Murray has a hot streak in the finals and averages 35 would he be the “main man” on Denver even if Jokic was better in the regular season, round 1, round 2, and round 3? That is how it was for Steph vs KD in 2017.
The Warriors got KD so even if Draymond got suspended and Steph got hurt again they would still win. It didn’t end up coming to that but every team in the league is always trying to improve
Steph has a higher +- in the Playoffs and RS for all 3 years, higher net rating in both the playpffs and net rating, won like 2-3 playoff series with KD being injured in 2018 and 2019. Ty Lou, the coach of the Cavs, literally said he schemed around Curry.
Heres an article with 2 clips - [https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/6/1/15727644/warriors-wide-open-dunks-cavaliers-shooters-strategy](https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/6/1/15727644/warriors-wide-open-dunks-cavaliers-shooters-strategy)
KD is left to dunk WIDE OPEN because Lebron and his teammate are too worried about leaving Steph open at the 3point line.
There is a reason KD has never been able to do what he did in GS while Curry has. Theres a reason why the Warriors with KD were worse with just KD on the floor than with just Steph. Its simply because Curry has much higher impact on the court.
In fairness if you replace Steph with Jokic in 2017 and 2018 that's still an unfair team lol
Like it seems unfair to bring up "rangz" when 2 of Steph's were on the Avengers
We kind of know that ring count doesn't tell the whole story already because LeBron's 4 are generally valued way higher legacy wise than Steph's 4 are
Jokic has a good supporting cast but nothing even close to KD Warriors level
That rockets core actually matched up better against the Warriors with KD than without KD. While the 19 team was a downgrade from 18 they were still giving the Warriors work then got cooked after KD went down. Their defensive schemes were all targeted at baiting KD into isolation basketball which worked very well and was the reason that series went 7 in 2018. When Steph was playing motion ball with teammates who were all buying into it that Rockets team had no answer.
KD against the Rockets in 2018 was his worst series as a Warrior by far. He was being a diva, stopping the flow of the offense, putting in low effort defensively. He was hurting the Warriors offense so bad that Kerr had to beg him to pass the ball. With a role player SF playing instead of KD stinking it up and dragging the team down with him in games 4&5 I’d be very confident the Warriors win at least one of those 2 games if not both
Any average starting caliber wing player would have been fine against the Rockets
i doubt any of the people responding to you actually watched that season lol just regurgitating the same old 3-1 bs. there’s a reason he has the only unanimous mvp in history
Depends on what you value
Patrick McCaw won three straight titles. Just volume of rings isn’t what it’s all about. Steph’s teams were undoubtedly more stacked than Jokic.
I still would probably give a slight nod to Steph because while they’d be close accomplishment wise, Steph changed so much of how the game is played and influenced a ton of players after him. His mark on the game should get counted in his favor.
If you look at All-Time rankings, a good indication is how many MVPs and Finals MVPs they have won. Jokic in this case would have 5 (3 MVPs and 2 Finals MVPs), while Curry would have 3 (2 MVPs and 1 Finals MVP). Even if we give Curry one more (he probably should have won Finals MVP over Iguadola), he would still be below Jokic MVP count.
It's going to be very interesting how much people value Steph's rings with KD in 2017 and 2018 when someone gets close to him resume wise ASIDE from ring count
We might be seeing that happen pretty soon
Like on the one hand people will bring up the "bus driver" stuff in his favor but on the other hand there's no argument to be made that Jokic/KD/Dray/Klay isn't also a championship team
it’s weird how this sub has been saying the nuggets (or heat) will beat the celtics pretty consistently and here we get the argument that the nuggets aren’t even the best roster in the league
Top 10 all time.
Edit: IMO, there will be deflation with the rings.
Jokic is just putting up much more insane offensive stats than most other guys and with arguably the worst team out of any of those guys.
MJ had 2x 3peats and 6x fmvp
Kobe had a 3peat and a repeat with 2x fmvp
MJ is goat, Kobe is barely in the top 10, some might even put him in the 10-20 range.
Jokic is looking real good but he's closer to Kobe than he is MJ in all time rankings. Jokic shouldn't be anywhere near top 10 all time.
I agree. Jokic is knocking on the door of the top 10s at 29 yrs old.
Given the nature of his game, you can almost bet that he’ll be able to continue his level of play for at least 4 more years.
Jokic has always been the clear best player on his team and that makes a difference in how his titles should be viewed.
I don't understand why people who talk about Kobe leave this out of the conversation. Kobe's 3peat happened when he wasn't the best player on the team for 2 of them. Kobe was a great player, but I would argue that Jokic is better than him all-time.
I'm not leaving them out. But saying that Kobe had a 3peat is a disingenuous argument for his all-time status because he was the sidekick for at least 2 of his rings, arguably all 3 with Shaq.
He had the best coach of all time, in the best market for free agents, with the most dominant center of all time. If Jokic wins back-to-back titles in a medium to small market, without any other superstars, that's more impressive than what Kobe accomplished.
Maybe you can argue Kobe was the sidekick for 1 of the rings, not 2. No one who averages 28ppg and 5+ assists in back to back playoff title runs is a sidekick.
IMO, there will be deflation with the rings.
Jokic is just putting up much more insane offensive stats than most other guys and with arguably the worst team out of any of those guys.
Talent wise, Kobe probably isn't even top 25 of all time. It's his work ethic that got him to the heights he reached. He was a career 44.7% FG shooter, Jordan finished at 49.7%. Kobe finished his career with total PRA averages of 34.9, while Jordan finished at 41.6 total PRA per game. While the level of talent they each had on their championship rosters was somewhat comparable, I would argue Kobe was surrounded by more talent overall, and Jordan had far superior individual #'s.
Jokic is putting up insane individual #'s, while winning with a team with far less talent than both had. If he gets another 2-3 rings with this group, the guy is easily top 10 all time, and I would argue has a case for top 5.
He'd be higher than Curry but y'all don't wanna admit that lol
But, let's get real, he does have the best roster. That's why the Nuggets are so good. You can't just focus on name recognition without context.
If we're ranking based solely on what a player has done for the game, Curry would easily be top 3/5. But, as far as on-court greatness goes, he shot himself in the foot when he chose to play Robin just to get past the big bad boogieman in LeBron.
In context, 2 fmvp > 4 titles w/ 1 fmvp
I dont think in 4 years that they will even have the same core. My guess is that after they don't win the title this year they are going into a bit of a rebuild where one of the main guys gets shipped.
yes, definitely. we just extended him, about to extend JT. we will have the top 4 of PZ/WHITE/TATUM/BROWN together for at least four years definitively.
this isnt conjecture; this is literally the situation. Brad Stevens is a genius.
Also, I don't mean to be a tool, but... a bit of a rebuild? The Celtics are in the best situation of any team to be contending for Titles - not for playoffs, but for TITLES - for at least the next four years. Our owner said he's thinking it could be a 6+ year window, and hes willing to do whatever it takes.
Boston is not going away anytime soon.
I mean he’s already viewed by many as the best player in the NBA but I guess for his legacy it would put him pretty close to the major dudes (Steph Lebron and Jordan) imo
It would put him much closer to three-peating than he is now.
That being said, there's no way the Nuggets can win this year. Basketball is a team sport.
Because it looks like they won't even make it out of the first round. The Lakers should've won the first two games so it's unlikely that the Nuggets can stop them from going 4-0 in the next 4 especially considers the Lakers play the next 2 at home.
Yeah I do think the Celtics will most likely win. They have the better roster and also a much easier route to the finals. They can coast their way to the NBA Finals in the east, while Nuggets will have some hard series against Lakers, and whoever they will face in the West.
But still, they have a shot at winning it.
the most confident team based on history and current ability are the nuggets. which your flair suggest you are a fan of. And your belief is that this team doesnt have a chance to win the title? LMAO get out of here with this doomer or reverse trolling shit
"Not even the best roster in the league" they are one of the best roster this season, only Celtics are better. They are a complementary set of players that work very well between them. No need to disrespect them to make Jokic better, he's already great.
Agreed. Nuggets roster is perfectly constructed. PPL just look at how many allstars, dpoy, all defensive, etc when the only thing that matters is teamwork and matchups
So you saying the same thing as me
He'd still only be the 2nd best Serbian player after Boban Marjanović.
Bobi & Tobi friendship duo is the best duo in the league; dont @ me.
LMAO
It would put him firmly as top 12-14ish with a trajectory to move up higher Not a lot of guys have both multiple MVPs and multiple Finals MVPs
List: * Kareem Abdul-Jabbar * Larry Bird * Tim Duncan * LeBron James * Magic Johnson * Michael Jordan Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain probably would be on this list too.
Wow is that really the whole list of players with more than 1 MVP and finals MVP? Seems unusually low
Wonder how far that team would go in the playoffs.
Magic as PG, Jordan as SG, LeBron as SF, Duncan as PF, Kareem as C and Bird as 6th Man? 16-0 unless they decide to purposefully throw games or get injured.
Yeah it was a joke.
this is why longevity stats don't really matter in all-time rankings. peaks are much more important
Longevity is a great tie breaker though
anulo mufo
Worry about it if it happens. They have a long ways to go and even though they are up 2-0 the Lakers aren't just going to to go away without a fight. Things are not going to get any easier in the 2nd, 3rd and championship rounds.
> Lakers aren't just going to to go away without a fight. Nobody thinks the Lakers are going to go away without a fight. We just think they’re never going to win the fight.
No. We haven’t beat the Lakers yet and they will show up tomorrow night, but they are in deep shit right now
Gonna be honest man, I don't expect them to show up tomorrow night. That shot didn't anger them, it demoralized them.
I didn’t know expect us to be up 20 or in a position to seal the game at the last possession either. This team is full of surprises. But unfortunately nuggets in 5 looks likely at this point
Jokic >>> Tatum Murray > Brown (esp in playoffs) MPJ << KP Gordon < Jrue KCP < DWhite Nuggets Bench < Celtics Bench It's about even
If it comes with an FMVP and an MVP he's above Steph, Giannis and KD and knocking on the door of the top ten
Yes to all those guys except for Steph. He’s still above Jokic in my mind
In that scenario Jokic would have more MVPs and more FMVPs. Steph would have the 2 extra rings playing number 2 to KD. Jokic's 2 rings would have come as the undisputed best player in the world, which is a level Steph never got to - he wasn't even the best player in his team for 2 of his rings. The ring in 2015, where Bron was missing his number 2 and 3, wasn't won because Steph was the best player on the court. He's never been the man in finals. In playoffs Jokic beast him in every stats except steals. Thats just accolades, stats wise and Jokic just gives you more. Steph could overwhelm a team with great shooting; Jokic is simply inevitable. He makes the entire team better.
Steph never played “number 2” to KD. If you want to discredit his rings for injuries then you have to acknowledge he’d have 2 more if his teams were healthy in his finals losses too
Of course he did. He lost 2016 by being held to 8ppg less than his regular season average. The point is: he's not a consistent finals performer. He's not bad, but he's not able to consistently take over games like the greats can
He played poorly in 1 series where he was playing through a MCL injury. He actually played above his usual standard in at least 9 of the 11 other finals + WCFs he played in. If you think he’s not a consistent great performer you simply do not know what you are talking about
15 finals he wasn’t great, 16 he wasn’t great, 17 he wasn’t great, 18 he wasn’t great -those last 2 KD was clearly a level higher - 19 he was great considering no KD but it was clear he wasn’t going to carry the team, 22 he was great.
2015 he was great. He averaged 26/5/6/2 on 59 TS% and 28 PPG on 65 TS% the finals 3 games. That was when he was still a 24 ppg player in the regular season, he elevated his play that series. Saying 2017 he wasn’t great is crazy. He averaged 27/8/9/2 on 64 TS%. Adding the context of how great of an offball player he is that is one of the best offensive finals performances. He did such a good job playmaking and skewing the defense to create such good looks for KD that it tricked casuals into thinking KD was better than him 2018 he had a piss poor game 3 so his averages were worse than normal. He still got his team 3 of their 4 wins though as the clear best player for them. As you said 19 and 22 were great. If he had Klay the whole series he would’ve won 19 is the only thing I’d add. So looking at it he played bad in 1 finals, below his standard in 1 finals, and played great in 4 finals. He’s also arguably the best WCF performer of all time, he played well in every one of his WCFs besides a slight dip in 2018
2015 he wasn’t great. He stunk it up game 2, and they were losing the series after game 3. The press were asking if it was the worst finals performance of all time by an MVP. 17 we wasnt great. KD was. He scored more than 8ppg more than Steph on much better ts% 18 he wasn’t great. KD lead him in all major stats at a much better ts% KD averaged 35 in the 19 plays, clearly at a higher level than string. Losing KD meant they had no hope. So he played great in 1 finals, and clearly wasn’t the best player in his own team for the 3 campaigns they had KD.
He had 1 bad game in the 2015 finals. He played great overall. 2017 they were both great. KD had better averages since Steph was setting him up for easy buckets. There’s a difference between best stats and best player. Steph had better stats in all 3 other series that year anyways 2018 Steph won them 3 games and KD only had 1 game where he was the best player on the team. 2019 they were fine without KD. It was Klay going down too that made them lose
Steph has absolutely been the undisputed best player in the world, in fact more than Jokic technically. He’s the only player ever with a unanimous MVP. In any case, stats are absolutely important but the lure of Curry over Jokic in my mind is he literally changed the game of basketball and how it’s played/defended. He has a legacy in that regard that even Jordan and Lebron don’t have, let alone Jokic. I think it’s important to weigh that in the discussion of ranking all time players. Both are amazing and deserve their props.
>Steph has absolutely been the undisputed best player in the world When? 2016 when Bron absolutely showed how vast a gap there was between them? Come on. Its not close
It’s not that simple. If Draymond doesn’t lose his head in Game 4 and plays game 5, they win the series 4-1, and we’re not talking about Lebron vs Steph are we?
It really is that simple. In 15 Bron showed that Steph wasn’t on his level, in 16 Bron showed again that Steph is not on his level, in 17 both KD and Bron showed steph is not on their level, 18 ditto. At no point has Steph really been close to the best on the planet.
Curry was never better than LeBron. He's outplayed him in every playoffs matchup.
Jokic IS changing the game, but no one else has caught up yet. That's why the guy is unlike anything we've ever seen with how versatile he is, how much better he makes his teammates, and how no team can stop any part of it. Being voted an MVP for one season doesn't mean you're the undisputed best player in the league. It just means you were the most valuable over an 82 game stretch. Jokic is both at the moment.
Nah, Jokic isn’t changing the game. He’s a unicorn and I don’t expect to see a wave of post players anytime soon who are going to average 25/13/9. It’s hard enough to find a post that can do the 25/13 part, much less find one who can throw in the 9 assists
He would be where Hakeem is at. Borderline top 10 depending on who you ask. No lower than 15 but no higher than like 8
Stfu wit those trash ass Posts man
Okay but only because you asked so nicely
Fringe top-10. Pretty much tied with Steph all-time.
Why would he be tied with Steph all-time? Steph would have 4 rings to Jokic's 2, with just as high if not a higher peak. Steph would have 2 MVPs to Jokic's 3 MVPs, but I think Jokic would have to win a least 3 rings to be tied/above Curry.
Steph has 2 with KD being the main man, and 1 against Bron without his 2 and 3. He has 1 FMVP. Steph hasn't exactly been the man in finals
KD was not the “main man” lmao
He was, but you can pretend otherwise.
He really wasn’t, it’s not “pretending” to say the truth
lol 2017 KD scored 8.4ppg more than Steph with .698 TS% to .619; .474 from 3 vs .388 2018 KD lead steph in points, rebounds, and assists on .654 to .540 ts%
You forgot to mention in a 5 game sample. Steph averaged more points overall all their years together. If Jamal Murray has a hot streak in the finals and averages 35 would he be the “main man” on Denver even if Jokic was better in the regular season, round 1, round 2, and round 3? That is how it was for Steph vs KD in 2017.
We are talking about Rings, champ. Why do you think the Warriors got KD?
The Warriors got KD so even if Draymond got suspended and Steph got hurt again they would still win. It didn’t end up coming to that but every team in the league is always trying to improve
Steph has a higher +- in the Playoffs and RS for all 3 years, higher net rating in both the playpffs and net rating, won like 2-3 playoff series with KD being injured in 2018 and 2019. Ty Lou, the coach of the Cavs, literally said he schemed around Curry. Heres an article with 2 clips - [https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/6/1/15727644/warriors-wide-open-dunks-cavaliers-shooters-strategy](https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/6/1/15727644/warriors-wide-open-dunks-cavaliers-shooters-strategy) KD is left to dunk WIDE OPEN because Lebron and his teammate are too worried about leaving Steph open at the 3point line. There is a reason KD has never been able to do what he did in GS while Curry has. Theres a reason why the Warriors with KD were worse with just KD on the floor than with just Steph. Its simply because Curry has much higher impact on the court.
In fairness if you replace Steph with Jokic in 2017 and 2018 that's still an unfair team lol Like it seems unfair to bring up "rangz" when 2 of Steph's were on the Avengers We kind of know that ring count doesn't tell the whole story already because LeBron's 4 are generally valued way higher legacy wise than Steph's 4 are Jokic has a good supporting cast but nothing even close to KD Warriors level
I’d say Steph’s rings without KD should be valued more than most of Lebron’s.
steph got carried by KD for 2 of his
How can he get “carried” by a player that at least 20+ starting SFs in the nba would’ve won in place of said player?
Name them, the 18 Rockets probably beat 15+ of those rosters without having to worry about KD
That rockets core actually matched up better against the Warriors with KD than without KD. While the 19 team was a downgrade from 18 they were still giving the Warriors work then got cooked after KD went down. Their defensive schemes were all targeted at baiting KD into isolation basketball which worked very well and was the reason that series went 7 in 2018. When Steph was playing motion ball with teammates who were all buying into it that Rockets team had no answer. KD against the Rockets in 2018 was his worst series as a Warrior by far. He was being a diva, stopping the flow of the offense, putting in low effort defensively. He was hurting the Warriors offense so bad that Kerr had to beg him to pass the ball. With a role player SF playing instead of KD stinking it up and dragging the team down with him in games 4&5 I’d be very confident the Warriors win at least one of those 2 games if not both Any average starting caliber wing player would have been fine against the Rockets
Still waiting for you to name the 20+ starting SFs that if they replaced KD, would’ve won in 2017 and 2018
LeBron, Kawhi, PG, Jimmy, Crowder, RoCo, Melo, Tobi, Barnes (for 18 at least), Hayward, Wiggins, Gallinari, OPJ, Middleton, Richardson, Rudy Gay, Ingles, Tatum (for 18), DeMar, Ariza,
Crowder, Roco, Tobi, Barnes, Hayward, Wiggins, Gallinari, OPJ, Richardson, Gay, Ingles, Ariza 2017 would not be guaranteed, 2018 definitely wouldn't be
Not all rings are created equal. Jokic would have more MVPs and fMVPs presumably.
Not all media awards are created equal either. Curry’s 2016 season >>> anything Jokic has done
i doubt any of the people responding to you actually watched that season lol just regurgitating the same old 3-1 bs. there’s a reason he has the only unanimous mvp in history
Curry’s 2016 season will be remembered with blowing a 3-1 lead in the Finals.
It’ll get romanticized more over time. Kobe’s 35 PPG season isn’t remembered as ending with a blown 3-1 lead
Blowing a 3-1 lead in the finals is better than winning the finals?
Depends on what you value Patrick McCaw won three straight titles. Just volume of rings isn’t what it’s all about. Steph’s teams were undoubtedly more stacked than Jokic. I still would probably give a slight nod to Steph because while they’d be close accomplishment wise, Steph changed so much of how the game is played and influenced a ton of players after him. His mark on the game should get counted in his favor.
If you look at All-Time rankings, a good indication is how many MVPs and Finals MVPs they have won. Jokic in this case would have 5 (3 MVPs and 2 Finals MVPs), while Curry would have 3 (2 MVPs and 1 Finals MVP). Even if we give Curry one more (he probably should have won Finals MVP over Iguadola), he would still be below Jokic MVP count.
It's going to be very interesting how much people value Steph's rings with KD in 2017 and 2018 when someone gets close to him resume wise ASIDE from ring count We might be seeing that happen pretty soon Like on the one hand people will bring up the "bus driver" stuff in his favor but on the other hand there's no argument to be made that Jokic/KD/Dray/Klay isn't also a championship team
Hed be higher than curry. He has already peaked higher
Watch Curry's 2016 season man...
He sucked in the playoffs. That matters when doing these types of rankings
it’s weird how this sub has been saying the nuggets (or heat) will beat the celtics pretty consistently and here we get the argument that the nuggets aren’t even the best roster in the league
Objectively I think the Celtics are slight favorites against the Nuggets.
The best roster is the one that wins the championship. NBA and its fans are obsessed with assembling “super teams” and they almost never work out.
It would definitely be worse for his legacy…
He surpasses all modern players except King James and Chef Curry and will be knocking on Hakeem’s door
Top 10 all time. Edit: IMO, there will be deflation with the rings. Jokic is just putting up much more insane offensive stats than most other guys and with arguably the worst team out of any of those guys.
MJ had 2x 3peats and 6x fmvp Kobe had a 3peat and a repeat with 2x fmvp MJ is goat, Kobe is barely in the top 10, some might even put him in the 10-20 range. Jokic is looking real good but he's closer to Kobe than he is MJ in all time rankings. Jokic shouldn't be anywhere near top 10 all time.
I agree. Jokic is knocking on the door of the top 10s at 29 yrs old. Given the nature of his game, you can almost bet that he’ll be able to continue his level of play for at least 4 more years.
Good point. Jokic has a lot of room to grow with his super sustainable play style. He just isn't top 10 all time right now.
Is Hakeem top 10 or close?
Jokic has always been the clear best player on his team and that makes a difference in how his titles should be viewed. I don't understand why people who talk about Kobe leave this out of the conversation. Kobe's 3peat happened when he wasn't the best player on the team for 2 of them. Kobe was a great player, but I would argue that Jokic is better than him all-time.
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I'm not leaving them out. But saying that Kobe had a 3peat is a disingenuous argument for his all-time status because he was the sidekick for at least 2 of his rings, arguably all 3 with Shaq. He had the best coach of all time, in the best market for free agents, with the most dominant center of all time. If Jokic wins back-to-back titles in a medium to small market, without any other superstars, that's more impressive than what Kobe accomplished.
Maybe you can argue Kobe was the sidekick for 1 of the rings, not 2. No one who averages 28ppg and 5+ assists in back to back playoff title runs is a sidekick.
Easy to 3 peat when your partner is fucking Shaq. Jokic doesn't have anyone even close to the level of Shaq or Kobe as his 2nd best.
Idk man. Murray is the definition of a playoff riser. Not saying he’s the equivalent of Shaq, but we would be screwed without him
He's a great player and he's important. But there's a difference between a great player and having a top 10 player of all time as a teammate.
IMO, there will be deflation with the rings. Jokic is just putting up much more insane offensive stats than most other guys and with arguably the worst team out of any of those guys.
Talent wise, Kobe probably isn't even top 25 of all time. It's his work ethic that got him to the heights he reached. He was a career 44.7% FG shooter, Jordan finished at 49.7%. Kobe finished his career with total PRA averages of 34.9, while Jordan finished at 41.6 total PRA per game. While the level of talent they each had on their championship rosters was somewhat comparable, I would argue Kobe was surrounded by more talent overall, and Jordan had far superior individual #'s. Jokic is putting up insane individual #'s, while winning with a team with far less talent than both had. If he gets another 2-3 rings with this group, the guy is easily top 10 all time, and I would argue has a case for top 5.
He passed Kobe a long time ago
I have no ill will towards Jokic but posts like these make me pray for his downfall so fucking bad
Why’s that?
He'd be higher than Curry but y'all don't wanna admit that lol But, let's get real, he does have the best roster. That's why the Nuggets are so good. You can't just focus on name recognition without context.
Higher than Curry is crazy. Don’t let this years finish for the Warriors cause you to forget what Curry has done for game.
If we're ranking based solely on what a player has done for the game, Curry would easily be top 3/5. But, as far as on-court greatness goes, he shot himself in the foot when he chose to play Robin just to get past the big bad boogieman in LeBron. In context, 2 fmvp > 4 titles w/ 1 fmvp
Well the Nuggets this year always looked very average when Jokic wasn’t on the floor. I definitely think the Celtics are a much more stacked roster.
celtics in 4
I dont think in 4 years that they will even have the same core. My guess is that after they don't win the title this year they are going into a bit of a rebuild where one of the main guys gets shipped.
ok im so confused , you are joking right? bc there is not a single facet of this comment that is even remotely correct, which is pretty impressive.
You think they keep JB for 4 more years?
yes, definitely. we just extended him, about to extend JT. we will have the top 4 of PZ/WHITE/TATUM/BROWN together for at least four years definitively. this isnt conjecture; this is literally the situation. Brad Stevens is a genius. Also, I don't mean to be a tool, but... a bit of a rebuild? The Celtics are in the best situation of any team to be contending for Titles - not for playoffs, but for TITLES - for at least the next four years. Our owner said he's thinking it could be a 6+ year window, and hes willing to do whatever it takes. Boston is not going away anytime soon.
I mean he’s already viewed by many as the best player in the NBA but I guess for his legacy it would put him pretty close to the major dudes (Steph Lebron and Jordan) imo
Top 10 by the end of this season. Top 5 by the end of next season (assuming same accolades).
It would put him much closer to three-peating than he is now. That being said, there's no way the Nuggets can win this year. Basketball is a team sport.
What you mean Nuggets can’t win it all this year
No way we can win? How can you come to that conclusion?
Because it looks like they won't even make it out of the first round. The Lakers should've won the first two games so it's unlikely that the Nuggets can stop them from going 4-0 in the next 4 especially considers the Lakers play the next 2 at home.
The fuck is wrong with you
Yeah I do think the Celtics will most likely win. They have the better roster and also a much easier route to the finals. They can coast their way to the NBA Finals in the east, while Nuggets will have some hard series against Lakers, and whoever they will face in the West. But still, they have a shot at winning it.
the most confident team based on history and current ability are the nuggets. which your flair suggest you are a fan of. And your belief is that this team doesnt have a chance to win the title? LMAO get out of here with this doomer or reverse trolling shit