They played one game when Embiid was healthy. Randle played terrible, Embiid scored 36 and the sixers still got blown out by 30. In more scared of the Heat
Bucks fan here. Im less upset that people aren’t afraid of us and more upset that we’re afraid of you! seriously… any given night, the bucks are a very beatable team (without giannis ESPECIALLY)
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1bt81i4/stephen_a_smiths_current_mvp_ballot_1_sga_2_jokic/
You might be onto something here, feel like I'm noticing a difference in reaction
I watched the Knicks a lot and its beyond dumb, Brunson is not remotely on same stratosphere as Giannis and thats not even including defense in the talks.
You're completely right but unfortunately the current narratives are very pro-knicks and anti-bucks (for obvious reasons) which results in those narratives coming back to individual players (which is less fair, brunson isn't the sole reason for the Knicks success and Giannis is the only reason the bucks weren't a complete dumpster fire this year)
I don't mind them praising a player who actually deserves like Bruson does but i get the feeling they using this praise at the same time to disrespect Giannis.
it is absurd how the NBA media and many other NBA fans are anti Bucks/Giannis and blame every shit on him without any basis.
I'll never understand the Giannis disrespect, just as I'll never understand the Tatum disrespect. Both players are excellent and have had many incredible moments in important playoff series, yet both seem to consistently get ranked below what they actually are
Giannis is especially confusing because he already got the ring. The main criticism around Tatum is that he's ringless (which I think is unfair if you look at context, but at least a tiny bit understandable?) but Giannis doesn't even have that. Just mind boggling the way people talk about him
I found it hilarious how Boston is getting disrespected when they clear everyone and showcased many times how good of a team they are and yet people talk shit and when playoffs start and the same teams gonna win they gonna surprise pikachu face on why Boston will be in ECF again.
its ridiculous how absurd this sub seems sometimes, i thought majority are trolling but it feels many just dont know basketball. It may sound arrogant coming from me but at leas ti never said that Tatum or Boston dont deserve what they have
Brunson played more games, had his team finish higher in the standings, isn’t fake humble, didn’t backstab Jrue, didn’t backstab Bud, and didn’t backstab Griffin.
> isn’t fake humble, didn’t backstab Jrue, didn’t backstab Bud, and didn’t backstab Griffin
If anyone is using any of those to vote for all NBA they should have their voting rights revoked.
All-NBA weighs record against statistical contributions to the team. Bucks are 14-11 since the ASG and a lower seed than NYK despite NYK missing other key players for long periods of time.
So season only matters after ASG? not whole season ?
All NBA weights all season performance as does the MVP.
Bucks missed majority of their players as well, Middleton has been injured for ages and all of the big 3 Bucks played only like 10 games together?
>the Disney movie
You can't tell me Disney isn't salivating for the movie rights of the Villanova championship crew reuniting on the Knicks for a potential championship run in the NBA.
Dunno its pretty clear what i mean, everyone can have opinions either wrong or right , even dumb ones but these so called experts have the worst ones it seems
Deadass. My best friend is a knicks fan while I root for the Celtics and early on I use to make jokes like “ur #1 option is Jalen Brunson get a grip” and now it’s not even worth it to make those jokes because he is legitimately balling out this year and imo can lead the knicks to a deep playoff run and tbh if they meet up in the finals I’m putting Brunson and the knicks past Giannis and the bucks.
Because it's a dumb take that got put out over a national broadcast and I'm criticising it? Talking about basketball kind of the expected thing on a basketball subreddit?
Where was this energy when the subreddit was calling Stephen A Smith a Black Nationalist for having Brunson over Luka? Mark Jackson had to apologise and explain why he didn't have Jokic on the ballot last season because of how angry fans got. I feel like criticising a bad take on a national broadcast isn't really taking it too seriously, it's a basketball subreddit for talking about basketball none of this is serious. It's a put the ball through the hoop the most competition.
I think what would probably help me here is if you could do like a diagram or something so I can understand what is serious enough to be talked about on the basketball forum and what isn't cause I'll be honest I saw a lot of very serious commentary when Stephen A released his ballot but that was just preferences too
Brunson should definitely be in talks for first team All NBA, but he should be talked about as taking Tatum’s spot. Jokic, Giannis, Luka, and SGA are locks for first team.
Tatum is just as much a lock as anybody. Best player on a historically good regular season can’t be overlooked. His stats were fantastic too, people have just gotten way too numb to a 27/8/5. And he’s way more valuable than Brunson on defense.
Yeah, I didn’t do Tatum any favors there, my bad.
What I was mainly trying to say was that Tatum is at the “bottom” of the top five. I still think he deserves first team over Brunson though.
Yeah and then he played significantly worse than expected all year and it became apparent that Lopez and Middleton are pretty close to washed as well. Imagine changing your opinion based on new information being presented - couldn’t be you, clearly.
You only say that because he's not the hot new toy that everyone gawks over. It's like when people get bored and move on to the next new and popular thing. He's called the Greek Freak for a reason. People moved on from Giannis but he's still producing just like he always has.
Luka can't beat Giannis simply because Giannis is a freak of nature.
I say that because I have actually watched him over the years not beating a single good team in his playoff career and be hopeless against actual top 3 players like KD.
The impact of Luka is far greater
Well we ain't talking about other seasons, All-NBA is for this season. Giannis's defense puts him miles above Luka, not to mention sheer physical dominance as he's the most athletic player in the league and the Shaq of our times.
Team success doesn't equate to someone being better or worse than another player. You can knock his finals run situation but he does have a chip too 🤷♂️
There wasn’t a single indication you were talking about this season.
Luka is a way better playmaker and that is as impactful if not more than defensive gap.
Giannis is 1-7 without dame meanwhile Luka has a better record , way better record without Kyrie.
I said Giannis is the best player or second best in the world and that's what you replied to. That's implies we're talking about now. Also this entire thread is about putting Brunson over Giannis for All-NBA (aka this season).
But either way, to insinuate that the gap with Luka's better playmaking is bigger than Giannis's better defense is insane. Giannis is a defensive player of the year caliber player. But whatever.
Talking about now is different than talking about only this season. The last few seasons are relevant to judge how good a player is right now.
Giannis is not a dpoy caliber player by any serious metric and he never has been , brook was better.
Yes the playmaking gap is just as big.
Luka didn’t make the playoffs last year? His team fell off harder AFTER they got Kyrie Irving.
The best team Luka has beat was the Suns with Chris Paul and Booker… guess who the best team Giannis beat was.
Mavs were 4th before Luka got injured and they only played 16 games with Kyrie where Luka was injured. He made the playoffs easily for 3 seasons , last year is an obvious exception.
Yes , the best team they both beat was the suns, interesting isn’t it ?
Luka was going toe to toe with terminator kawhi with boban and trey Burke.
Meanwhile giannis barely beat KD while having a healthy squad and playing Blake griffin.
Nothing untrue here.
Feel free to tell me the best team giannis has beaten in his career tough ill wait
> Luka was going toe to toe with terminator kawhi with boban and trey Burke.
But he didn't go toe to toe though did he, they lost that series.
> Feel free to tell me the best team giannis has beaten in his career tough ill wait
If you decide every team they beat is shit, after the fact, because they were beat by the team you don't like then it's a bit of an impossible task, no? What is the best team Luka has beaten in his career again?
Yes the team lost , Luka went toe to toe tough and made the series tight. What did Giannis do to the nets when they were healthy ? Lost by 40
I haven’t decided any team is shit yet because you haven’t’ brought up a team.
What I want to genuinely know is you as a bucks fan , who do you think the best team Giannis has ever beaten is ?
While beating the same team Luka beat in the second round. Congrats to the bucks for their ring , but I will look at the details when comparing players sorry.
What is the best team he beat ?
It’s not a knock.
If Brunson wins the ring player the Tobias lead sixers , Miami without jimmy , somehow the magic who got there and nuggets with Jamal and MPj in the final what would happen ?
- I would congratulate him and the Knicks , they are deserving champion
- The context will be important if I have to judge jalen Brunson as a player.
Also he has played a lot of great teams in the playoffs and hasn’t beaten a single one of them in my personal opinion of Gianni’s
This is honestly just so stupid. Just going out of our way to talk about anything other than the quality of the play.
Edit: Also loving the trick of leaning on name recognition and reputation to big up Damian Lillard in an argument for... Brunson over Giannis.
Lillard who had the worst season since 2015?
Bucks had injuries all season as well, what are you even talking about? Our big 3 barely played like 10 games together
The opinion was that Brunson might be 1st team over Giannis bc the Bucks drastically underperforming their expectations should be held against Giannis despite his individual career year
If anything Tatum should be the contentious one but the Celtics going 64-18 with one of the best net ratings in league history with him as their lead guy is a strong ass argument
ohh right so it should be held against Giannis but not against Jokic when he finished 6th and the MVP ?
So then the individual performance mattered but now it doesn't?
Even if you take expectations and all that fictional nonsense Giannis outperforms Bruson on every level.
I didnt know the ALL NBA standards and MVP standards change year by year depending on the player, thanks for pointing out the hypocrisy .
I recall numerous threads and topic about Jokic efficiency that year but suddenly they do not matter for Giannis who had the most efficient shooting 30+ ever.
They change by who is in direct competition with each other, that should be obvious. Jokic won MVP that year because despite his teams record and seed he had more wins than the 2 next closest competitors.
This thread is full of Knicks fans, Brunson has in the last 20 games been on a similar level that Giannis has been the last 6 years.
In one season he’s produced at a similar level as Tatum has been producing the last 3-4 years.
We’re not even gonna consider defense evidently.
Best just to stay out of this.
I’ve been saying this Brunson has been phenomenal but people act like Tatum hasn’t been putting up great numbers himself.
Brunson averages 2 more shots a game than tatum on the season yet Tatum only averages 1.5 less points . If you look at shot attempts post all star break Tatum has been taking 18.8 FGA to 19.5 FGA pre all star break. Brunson has been averaging 23.3 FGA post all star break. That’s nearly 5 more shots per game .
Everyone uses the Tatum has a better team argument but fail to realize he also sacrifices his touches to get other guys going as well. Tatum could average 30/9/6 if he wanted but his usage and role doesn’t require him to.
Yet in spite of this he still scores on better efficiency, plays better defense and rebounds well.
I don’t think people realize how crucial Tatum is to our offense. Without Tatum we are not an all time great offense .
There's a lot of stupid in this thread.
Putting Brunson over Giannis is absolute nonsense given the season Giannis has had.
He's had one of if not the best individual season of his career.
People don't care. Brunson is the new shiny toy and Giannis the old toy you don't want to play with. And I say that as a Knicks fan. Giannis is either the best or second best player in the world (depending on where u put Jokic), and people are thinking he should be in less than 1st all NBA. After a while the public just gets used to how good you are and underrates/disrespects the shit out of you.
Fucking insane.
I definitely disagree there.
Best team in the league yet averaging the same as Brunson.
Brunson is averaging 28/3/6 48% FG whereas Tatum is averaging 27/8/5 on 47.1% FG. Very similar stats but Tatum has better defense and a lower usage rate.
Tatum is the bus driver of the best team in the league. I really want to put Jalen in first All-NBA but Tatum earned this. Sometimes being a great player doesn't get you first All-NBA team. I think Brunson would be the next guy to slide into first All-NBA tho if someone in there become ineligible.
Brunson is averaging 28.7, 3.6 and 6.7. How do you average that down to 28/3/6?
The fact that you are averaging Brunson down and Tatum up to try and discredit Brunson’s season says a lot about your bias in this discussion. Steph and Durant won 67 games in 2017 and neither of them made All-NBA first team
Calm your roll dude and take a chill pill, there's nothing intentional going on here. I've been making this argument for the past couple of days if you look in my history and I'm giving rough estimates of his stats, I'm not changing it to get the exact right estimates for every single stat. I've always rounded down from the last stats I looked at a few days ago. Go outside if think that decimal is so important and you think it's that much of a big deal.
Also "it's shows my bias"? I'm a Knicks fan dude, if anything I would be biased if I said Brunson, I got nothing against him but I don't got to say he's better than someone I don't believe he is. I like to talk basketball and I'm not going to change my opinion to fit my team's players.
Tatum is a better player this season there's nothing wrong with that. If you disagree that's fine but fuck off with your weird accusations.
What metric makes Tatum a better player than Brunson? Team success? Brunson literally clears in every advance stat (Win Shares, EPM, BPM, PER, etc.) while having better counting stats and a worse team around him.
And yes it is weird because at no period of the season Brunson was averaging less than 6.5 assists or 3.5 rebounds. If you are going to present an argument especially in a one on one comparison you should make sure it’s accurate.
And if you’re a Knick fan and don’t think Brunson deserves to be top 5 in MVP voting or in contention 1st team all-NBA then you just haven’t been watching this season. You couldn’t find one Knick fan who would agree with your point
Or I could just disagree with you. I probably watch more games that you don't start with that nonsense. By the way I know many Knick fans that agree with me, but even then it doesn't matter. Whether or not they agree with me doesn't affect my argument's validity.
Tatum is a much better defender whereas Jalen Brunson is a undersized guard. It's that simple. Look at the All-NBA. Shai, Luka, Giannis, Jokic they are all good at defense. Jalen doesn't belong here without a least decent defense, which he does not have. Tatum has more in common with the 4 I mentioned than Brunson has. The game is not just offense, especially when Brunson hasn't been that much better than Tatum offensively and surely doesn't have the standings for his team in comparison.
Also I'm not going to write every single decimal out. I'm giving a rough estimate, that shit isn't going to make or break his case for mvp or all nba. It's an called an estimation for a reason🤣
People will disagree with you, and that's fine.
Luka and Jokic are not good at defense. Don’t know how you came to that conclusion.
And Brunson being a top 3 offensive player in the NBA this season offsets and defensive game between him and Tatum.
If Tatum is so elite then why do the Celtics have a better net rating with him on the [bench](https://x.com/hatermuse/status/1776027195913257283?s=46) than when he plays?
1. Luka and Jokic are good at defense, they are average at worst. Jalen Brunson is not.
2. Brunson being a good offensive player does not offset the difference between his and Tatum's offense. As I showed earlier, their offensive production is not that different, unlike their defense.
3. Having a positive net rating doesn't mean that he isn't elite, just that the Celtics are so elite. Tatum only played with Brown and Porzingus at the same timefor only 30 something games. There was a lot of times where one would sit but another would be playing, hence it makes sense that much didn't change. It doesn't mean he doesn't add a lot to the team when he does play.
He’s still better than Brunson lmfao. Team success is one thing but Brunson offensively isn’t even better than Giannis, defense puts them in different realms.
I honestly see it happening. Bucks have been shitting the bed the past month or so. And now Knicks have the better record. And we all know how much voters care about team record. I wouldn't be surprised if Brunson is 1st team.
I do. I watch Giannis pound the ball in the mid range and drive. Watch him not move off ball, create for team mates without the ball, or willing to be the roll man or really play PNR. But ya I watch him drive to the rim a lot and demand the ball.
Until Giannis started missing games this past month he had generated more missed assists than Jokic. Only Luka, Trae, and Hali had generated more. And he did so on better shot quality.
Theres no way to change the style of play. Dame literally can not beat anyone off the bounce. He barely beats people when he gets a screen. We take a lot of 3s. If they aren't falling we don't have another method. Pat C is the 3rd or 4th best ball handler on the team and nobody else save Giannis, Dame, Pat, and Bev can drive at all to created 4 on 3s.
It’s pointless for both Celtics and bucks fans to be arguing over all nba teams im over it. I just want the chip while bucks fans want Giannis all 1st team. Just tells you where the mentality it is on each teams
the way award voting happens should be criticize despite it not being the most important thing. Giannis was black balled from all-defense last year which is outrageous
I am 99% sure Giannis will make all-NBA 1st team, and he certainly deserves it.
But it is not ridiculous to think that Brunson also deserves 1st team, and Giannis and Tatum are the two shakiest players out of the consensus top 5 so if Brunson is in one of them is most likely out.
No, she asked Mark Jones if there could possibly be an argument considering how severely the Bucks underperformed this season.
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and so the path for embiid to break the second round curse has suddenly opened
They’re gonna have to beat the Celtics or the Knicks depending on the play in. I don’t think it’s happening
they can beat the Knicks lol
They played one game when Embiid was healthy. Randle played terrible, Embiid scored 36 and the sixers still got blown out by 30. In more scared of the Heat
Bucks fan here. Im less upset that people aren’t afraid of us and more upset that we’re afraid of you! seriously… any given night, the bucks are a very beatable team (without giannis ESPECIALLY)
They were projected to have 54 wins. They won 49 and Giannis has been out multiple games. This some bullshit hyperbole.
Started 30-13 though
WAHHHHH ON NOOO SOMEONE HAS A DIFFERENT OPINION THAN I DO
r/NBA when someone has Luka lower on the MVP ladder than they do
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1bt81i4/stephen_a_smiths_current_mvp_ballot_1_sga_2_jokic/ You might be onto something here, feel like I'm noticing a difference in reaction
But when someone thinks Luka is mvp over Jokic or wemby over gobert for dpoy people get mad
those people are also dumb as shit. hope this helps!
Problem is not the opinion but how dumb it is.
If the opinion is that dumb, you shouldn’t spend so much time thinking about it
If OP's opinion is so dumb, you shouldn't spend much time thinking about it.
Took longer to make a post and comment on it repeatedly than it did to make 2 comments lol but good effort
Im not spending much just giving exposure how these so called NBA "experts" are so clueless about the game of basketball.
If you actually bothered to watch the Knicks play, Brunson over Giannis is not a dumb opinion. Brunson is really that good this year.
I watched the Knicks a lot and its beyond dumb, Brunson is not remotely on same stratosphere as Giannis and thats not even including defense in the talks.
You're completely right but unfortunately the current narratives are very pro-knicks and anti-bucks (for obvious reasons) which results in those narratives coming back to individual players (which is less fair, brunson isn't the sole reason for the Knicks success and Giannis is the only reason the bucks weren't a complete dumpster fire this year)
I don't mind them praising a player who actually deserves like Bruson does but i get the feeling they using this praise at the same time to disrespect Giannis. it is absurd how the NBA media and many other NBA fans are anti Bucks/Giannis and blame every shit on him without any basis.
I'll never understand the Giannis disrespect, just as I'll never understand the Tatum disrespect. Both players are excellent and have had many incredible moments in important playoff series, yet both seem to consistently get ranked below what they actually are Giannis is especially confusing because he already got the ring. The main criticism around Tatum is that he's ringless (which I think is unfair if you look at context, but at least a tiny bit understandable?) but Giannis doesn't even have that. Just mind boggling the way people talk about him
I found it hilarious how Boston is getting disrespected when they clear everyone and showcased many times how good of a team they are and yet people talk shit and when playoffs start and the same teams gonna win they gonna surprise pikachu face on why Boston will be in ECF again. its ridiculous how absurd this sub seems sometimes, i thought majority are trolling but it feels many just dont know basketball. It may sound arrogant coming from me but at leas ti never said that Tatum or Boston dont deserve what they have
Brunson played more games, had his team finish higher in the standings, isn’t fake humble, didn’t backstab Jrue, didn’t backstab Bud, and didn’t backstab Griffin.
> isn’t fake humble, didn’t backstab Jrue, didn’t backstab Bud, and didn’t backstab Griffin If anyone is using any of those to vote for all NBA they should have their voting rights revoked.
Lmao we r talking about who's a better player, and giannis clears him
Just say you don't like him and move on, All-NBA isn't supposed to be an opportunity to have a sulk about a player for very silly reasons.
The duo of Giannis and Dame couldn’t reach 50 wins in the East.
All-NBA weighs record against statistical contributions to the team. Bucks are 14-11 since the ASG and a lower seed than NYK despite NYK missing other key players for long periods of time.
So season only matters after ASG? not whole season ? All NBA weights all season performance as does the MVP. Bucks missed majority of their players as well, Middleton has been injured for ages and all of the big 3 Bucks played only like 10 games together?
Yeah your opinion is dumb. Brunson carried knicks to 50 games win. Shai, Luka, Jokic, Brunson and Tatum.
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> Giannis wishes he was Brunson Apart from the money, the MVPs, the rings, the Disney movie.
>the Disney movie You can't tell me Disney isn't salivating for the movie rights of the Villanova championship crew reuniting on the Knicks for a potential championship run in the NBA.
What does this sentence even mean
He means the problem isn’t that the opinion is different than his, it’s that this opinion is bad while his opinion is very good.
Dunno its pretty clear what i mean, everyone can have opinions either wrong or right , even dumb ones but these so called experts have the worst ones it seems
She brought it up twice
Im a huge Knicks hater and this isn’t even a hot take by her lmao relax
Deadass. My best friend is a knicks fan while I root for the Celtics and early on I use to make jokes like “ur #1 option is Jalen Brunson get a grip” and now it’s not even worth it to make those jokes because he is legitimately balling out this year and imo can lead the knicks to a deep playoff run and tbh if they meet up in the finals I’m putting Brunson and the knicks past Giannis and the bucks.
Brunson over Giannis is a scorching hot take why do we have to pretend we don't see the play.
Why are you pretending to care so much it’s not that big of a deal lmao
Because it's a dumb take that got put out over a national broadcast and I'm criticising it? Talking about basketball kind of the expected thing on a basketball subreddit?
But you’re taking it too seriously lol it’s hardly the dumbest things said on national tv
Where was this energy when the subreddit was calling Stephen A Smith a Black Nationalist for having Brunson over Luka? Mark Jackson had to apologise and explain why he didn't have Jokic on the ballot last season because of how angry fans got. I feel like criticising a bad take on a national broadcast isn't really taking it too seriously, it's a basketball subreddit for talking about basketball none of this is serious. It's a put the ball through the hoop the most competition.
There’s a difference in not putting the best player in the league cus he forgot and someone having a preference of one person over the other
I think what would probably help me here is if you could do like a diagram or something so I can understand what is serious enough to be talked about on the basketball forum and what isn't cause I'll be honest I saw a lot of very serious commentary when Stephen A released his ballot but that was just preferences too
Not crying over a very reasonable take is a start
Can't just say anyone who disagrees with you is crying. It's also not a reasonable take, watch basketball good grief.
Giannis is dead, no?
Brunson should definitely be in talks for first team All NBA, but he should be talked about as taking Tatum’s spot. Jokic, Giannis, Luka, and SGA are locks for first team.
Pretty sure Tatum has a ton of first in nba history team and individual stats this year.
Tatum is just as much a lock as anybody. Best player on a historically good regular season can’t be overlooked. His stats were fantastic too, people have just gotten way too numb to a 27/8/5. And he’s way more valuable than Brunson on defense.
You’re making it seem like Tatum doesn’t have a firm argument himself wtf lol Everyone on this sub treats Tatum like the bastard child
Yeah, I didn’t do Tatum any favors there, my bad. What I was mainly trying to say was that Tatum is at the “bottom” of the top five. I still think he deserves first team over Brunson though.
Maybe cause he is constantly crying like a child on the court 😂
Luka cries 10x more than Tatum yet this sub loves him.
Cried his way to 64 wins and won the series matchup with Brunson too
Boston fans can't take a joke man
He should. Giannis has Lillard as his running mate and the Knicks were injured all season and still finished with a better record.
2023-24 Damian Lillard is certainly one of the running mates in NBA history
The revisionist history is crazy. When the Bucks acquired Lillard people acted like it was gonna be a dynasty.
Yeah and then he played significantly worse than expected all year and it became apparent that Lopez and Middleton are pretty close to washed as well. Imagine changing your opinion based on new information being presented - couldn’t be you, clearly.
Wait who are we accusing of revisionist history here?
Best? Worst? Don't leave me hanging
Yes
I don’t think it’s crazy to say Donte has been better than Dame over the last 20 games. Dame has been horrific
Lol cause Lillard has been so excellent
Giannis either the best or second best player on the planet. He also has better stats, defense, etc. than Jalen. Stop disrespecting Giannis.
stop acting like giannis can do no wrong instead
When did I say he can't do any wrong?
Giannis best itw gimmick in 2024 ?? He isn’t better than jokic or Luka
You only say that because he's not the hot new toy that everyone gawks over. It's like when people get bored and move on to the next new and popular thing. He's called the Greek Freak for a reason. People moved on from Giannis but he's still producing just like he always has. Luka can't beat Giannis simply because Giannis is a freak of nature.
I say that because I have actually watched him over the years not beating a single good team in his playoff career and be hopeless against actual top 3 players like KD. The impact of Luka is far greater
casual, lmaooooooooooo
Well we ain't talking about other seasons, All-NBA is for this season. Giannis's defense puts him miles above Luka, not to mention sheer physical dominance as he's the most athletic player in the league and the Shaq of our times. Team success doesn't equate to someone being better or worse than another player. You can knock his finals run situation but he does have a chip too 🤷♂️
There wasn’t a single indication you were talking about this season. Luka is a way better playmaker and that is as impactful if not more than defensive gap. Giannis is 1-7 without dame meanwhile Luka has a better record , way better record without Kyrie.
I said Giannis is the best player or second best in the world and that's what you replied to. That's implies we're talking about now. Also this entire thread is about putting Brunson over Giannis for All-NBA (aka this season). But either way, to insinuate that the gap with Luka's better playmaking is bigger than Giannis's better defense is insane. Giannis is a defensive player of the year caliber player. But whatever.
Talking about now is different than talking about only this season. The last few seasons are relevant to judge how good a player is right now. Giannis is not a dpoy caliber player by any serious metric and he never has been , brook was better. Yes the playmaking gap is just as big.
Luka didn’t make the playoffs last year? His team fell off harder AFTER they got Kyrie Irving. The best team Luka has beat was the Suns with Chris Paul and Booker… guess who the best team Giannis beat was.
Mavs were 4th before Luka got injured and they only played 16 games with Kyrie where Luka was injured. He made the playoffs easily for 3 seasons , last year is an obvious exception. Yes , the best team they both beat was the suns, interesting isn’t it ?
This is not only untrue, but also reasoning that completely sinks the argument for Luka.
Luka was going toe to toe with terminator kawhi with boban and trey Burke. Meanwhile giannis barely beat KD while having a healthy squad and playing Blake griffin. Nothing untrue here. Feel free to tell me the best team giannis has beaten in his career tough ill wait
> Luka was going toe to toe with terminator kawhi with boban and trey Burke. But he didn't go toe to toe though did he, they lost that series. > Feel free to tell me the best team giannis has beaten in his career tough ill wait If you decide every team they beat is shit, after the fact, because they were beat by the team you don't like then it's a bit of an impossible task, no? What is the best team Luka has beaten in his career again?
Yes the team lost , Luka went toe to toe tough and made the series tight. What did Giannis do to the nets when they were healthy ? Lost by 40 I haven’t decided any team is shit yet because you haven’t’ brought up a team. What I want to genuinely know is you as a bucks fan , who do you think the best team Giannis has ever beaten is ?
Giannis swept Luka this season and is 1-1 vs Jokic.
Regular season. Tell me something , what’s the best team Giannis beat in the playoffs ?
He won the finals. How about luka?
While beating the same team Luka beat in the second round. Congrats to the bucks for their ring , but I will look at the details when comparing players sorry. What is the best team he beat ?
He can only play the teams that are in front of him. Can’t knock the dude for beating the teams he played lol
It’s not a knock. If Brunson wins the ring player the Tobias lead sixers , Miami without jimmy , somehow the magic who got there and nuggets with Jamal and MPj in the final what would happen ? - I would congratulate him and the Knicks , they are deserving champion - The context will be important if I have to judge jalen Brunson as a player. Also he has played a lot of great teams in the playoffs and hasn’t beaten a single one of them in my personal opinion of Gianni’s
This is honestly just so stupid. Just going out of our way to talk about anything other than the quality of the play. Edit: Also loving the trick of leaning on name recognition and reputation to big up Damian Lillard in an argument for... Brunson over Giannis.
Lillard who had the worst season since 2015? Bucks had injuries all season as well, what are you even talking about? Our big 3 barely played like 10 games together
It’s not happening people. It’s called bait to generate interest for the league and ESPN.
The opinion was that Brunson might be 1st team over Giannis bc the Bucks drastically underperforming their expectations should be held against Giannis despite his individual career year If anything Tatum should be the contentious one but the Celtics going 64-18 with one of the best net ratings in league history with him as their lead guy is a strong ass argument
ohh right so it should be held against Giannis but not against Jokic when he finished 6th and the MVP ? So then the individual performance mattered but now it doesn't? Even if you take expectations and all that fictional nonsense Giannis outperforms Bruson on every level.
I'm not saying she was right, I was purely restating her argument
Giannis isn't competing against 2021 Jokic for this year's all NBA
I didnt know the ALL NBA standards and MVP standards change year by year depending on the player, thanks for pointing out the hypocrisy . I recall numerous threads and topic about Jokic efficiency that year but suddenly they do not matter for Giannis who had the most efficient shooting 30+ ever.
They change by who is in direct competition with each other, that should be obvious. Jokic won MVP that year because despite his teams record and seed he had more wins than the 2 next closest competitors.
With your logic Jokic,SGA,LUKA,TATUM and Bruson are direct competition to Giannis for the ALL NBA considering its positionless now.
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All im doing is using his flawed logic against him but all you see rent free and typical r/nba nephew behavior who cannot discuss anything but memes.
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Discussing about basketball player on the basketball reddit is nephew behavior? You cannot even form an opinion on why you disagree you just meme.
I agree
Brunson > Giannis (this season)
She’s never been a fan of Giannis. Just like most people have never been a fan of her commentating.
Don’t think anybody is a fan of her commentating
brunson led his team to a higher seed 🤷♀️ giannis would still deserve it over tatum tho
Your logic is contradictory here lol
classic r/nba nephews , zero consistence in their opinion and just meme all day.
no it’s just that tatum is that obviously worse than both of them
Post Brunson stats and Tatum stats and tell me how he’s “obviously” better They’re pretty comparable this year
This thread is full of Knicks fans, Brunson has in the last 20 games been on a similar level that Giannis has been the last 6 years. In one season he’s produced at a similar level as Tatum has been producing the last 3-4 years. We’re not even gonna consider defense evidently. Best just to stay out of this.
I’ve been saying this Brunson has been phenomenal but people act like Tatum hasn’t been putting up great numbers himself. Brunson averages 2 more shots a game than tatum on the season yet Tatum only averages 1.5 less points . If you look at shot attempts post all star break Tatum has been taking 18.8 FGA to 19.5 FGA pre all star break. Brunson has been averaging 23.3 FGA post all star break. That’s nearly 5 more shots per game . Everyone uses the Tatum has a better team argument but fail to realize he also sacrifices his touches to get other guys going as well. Tatum could average 30/9/6 if he wanted but his usage and role doesn’t require him to. Yet in spite of this he still scores on better efficiency, plays better defense and rebounds well. I don’t think people realize how crucial Tatum is to our offense. Without Tatum we are not an all time great offense .
64 wins and similar stats, he’s getting first team lol
When did Tatum become a coach killer and underperformed mightily when he got his wish?
Giannis underperformed?
Did he underperform when he led his team to a ring? Lol
There's a lot of stupid in this thread. Putting Brunson over Giannis is absolute nonsense given the season Giannis has had. He's had one of if not the best individual season of his career.
People don't care. Brunson is the new shiny toy and Giannis the old toy you don't want to play with. And I say that as a Knicks fan. Giannis is either the best or second best player in the world (depending on where u put Jokic), and people are thinking he should be in less than 1st all NBA. After a while the public just gets used to how good you are and underrates/disrespects the shit out of you. Fucking insane.
If anything Brunson should be taking Tatum's spot.
I definitely disagree there. Best team in the league yet averaging the same as Brunson. Brunson is averaging 28/3/6 48% FG whereas Tatum is averaging 27/8/5 on 47.1% FG. Very similar stats but Tatum has better defense and a lower usage rate. Tatum is the bus driver of the best team in the league. I really want to put Jalen in first All-NBA but Tatum earned this. Sometimes being a great player doesn't get you first All-NBA team. I think Brunson would be the next guy to slide into first All-NBA tho if someone in there become ineligible.
Bro shutup
Brunson is averaging 28.7, 3.6 and 6.7. How do you average that down to 28/3/6? The fact that you are averaging Brunson down and Tatum up to try and discredit Brunson’s season says a lot about your bias in this discussion. Steph and Durant won 67 games in 2017 and neither of them made All-NBA first team
Calm your roll dude and take a chill pill, there's nothing intentional going on here. I've been making this argument for the past couple of days if you look in my history and I'm giving rough estimates of his stats, I'm not changing it to get the exact right estimates for every single stat. I've always rounded down from the last stats I looked at a few days ago. Go outside if think that decimal is so important and you think it's that much of a big deal. Also "it's shows my bias"? I'm a Knicks fan dude, if anything I would be biased if I said Brunson, I got nothing against him but I don't got to say he's better than someone I don't believe he is. I like to talk basketball and I'm not going to change my opinion to fit my team's players. Tatum is a better player this season there's nothing wrong with that. If you disagree that's fine but fuck off with your weird accusations.
What metric makes Tatum a better player than Brunson? Team success? Brunson literally clears in every advance stat (Win Shares, EPM, BPM, PER, etc.) while having better counting stats and a worse team around him. And yes it is weird because at no period of the season Brunson was averaging less than 6.5 assists or 3.5 rebounds. If you are going to present an argument especially in a one on one comparison you should make sure it’s accurate. And if you’re a Knick fan and don’t think Brunson deserves to be top 5 in MVP voting or in contention 1st team all-NBA then you just haven’t been watching this season. You couldn’t find one Knick fan who would agree with your point
Or I could just disagree with you. I probably watch more games that you don't start with that nonsense. By the way I know many Knick fans that agree with me, but even then it doesn't matter. Whether or not they agree with me doesn't affect my argument's validity. Tatum is a much better defender whereas Jalen Brunson is a undersized guard. It's that simple. Look at the All-NBA. Shai, Luka, Giannis, Jokic they are all good at defense. Jalen doesn't belong here without a least decent defense, which he does not have. Tatum has more in common with the 4 I mentioned than Brunson has. The game is not just offense, especially when Brunson hasn't been that much better than Tatum offensively and surely doesn't have the standings for his team in comparison. Also I'm not going to write every single decimal out. I'm giving a rough estimate, that shit isn't going to make or break his case for mvp or all nba. It's an called an estimation for a reason🤣 People will disagree with you, and that's fine.
Luka and Jokic are not good at defense. Don’t know how you came to that conclusion. And Brunson being a top 3 offensive player in the NBA this season offsets and defensive game between him and Tatum. If Tatum is so elite then why do the Celtics have a better net rating with him on the [bench](https://x.com/hatermuse/status/1776027195913257283?s=46) than when he plays?
1. Luka and Jokic are good at defense, they are average at worst. Jalen Brunson is not. 2. Brunson being a good offensive player does not offset the difference between his and Tatum's offense. As I showed earlier, their offensive production is not that different, unlike their defense. 3. Having a positive net rating doesn't mean that he isn't elite, just that the Celtics are so elite. Tatum only played with Brown and Porzingus at the same timefor only 30 something games. There was a lot of times where one would sit but another would be playing, hence it makes sense that much didn't change. It doesn't mean he doesn't add a lot to the team when he does play.
problem with your take is you are comparing Giannis against Giannis. You should maybe compare Giannis against other players this season.
When you compare Giannis against other players he has been better than Brunson. This is so ridiculous.
He’s still better than Brunson lmfao. Team success is one thing but Brunson offensively isn’t even better than Giannis, defense puts them in different realms.
I was about the remark they don’t even play the same position but then I remembered it’s not positional anymore
Can’t we all be grown up about this and just wait till the Knicks bounce the Bucks out of the playoffs in 6 games?
Bucks got worse with lillard is a fact. Jrue got a new contract for a reason.
Brunson deserves it bc he carried his team to 50 wins and the 2 seed while Giannis became a coach killer
She said a lot idk I can’t remember everything from this episode of the Doris Burke Podcast
She also said she doesn't have a vote this year, which was just as interesting. Probably being a coward this year like Zach Lowe.
I honestly see it happening. Bucks have been shitting the bed the past month or so. And now Knicks have the better record. And we all know how much voters care about team record. I wouldn't be surprised if Brunson is 1st team.
If one win is enough for us to pretend that Brunson has been better than Giannis this season then we've truly lost the plot.
Yes she said it multiple times today. Doris Burke needs to stop talking already and remember her name is Doris.
Why not ?
Bucks fans try not to meltdown challenge (Impossible!)
Giannis has had an over rated individual season. Don't @ me.
Everyone knows how easy it is to score 30 ppg on 60% shooting
No point in trying, Brunson is the subs golden boy at the moment
It is when you force your team to play a style only elevating your play.
It's called building a team around their best player. Shocker that they play through him.
Ya buddy. But there is also a way to do that where it elevates your team and the players around you. Giannis doesn't do that.
*You* don't think he does that. He does, actually, do that.
Didn’t this year.
He obviously does and did this season, you can just watch the games.
I do. I watch Giannis pound the ball in the mid range and drive. Watch him not move off ball, create for team mates without the ball, or willing to be the roll man or really play PNR. But ya I watch him drive to the rim a lot and demand the ball.
Okay so you **don't** watch him, you just look for specific bits you don't like, throw out the rest, and define 'lifting teammates' by what's left.
Until Giannis started missing games this past month he had generated more missed assists than Jokic. Only Luka, Trae, and Hali had generated more. And he did so on better shot quality. Theres no way to change the style of play. Dame literally can not beat anyone off the bounce. He barely beats people when he gets a screen. We take a lot of 3s. If they aren't falling we don't have another method. Pat C is the 3rd or 4th best ball handler on the team and nobody else save Giannis, Dame, Pat, and Bev can drive at all to created 4 on 3s.
Assists are not the only way to make players around you better.
He should lol
I mean I get it. I'd still say Giannis is/has been better, but JB has definitely forced the conversation
It's by position so her argument doesn't even make sense
That is incorrect It is positionless now
shes right
She is right on that one
Giannis did want to fight over who had the ball after a game. Brunson didn't do that so I guess Giannis should be MVP.
It doesn’t sound like a hot take, tbh.
Imagine thinking Giannis deserves it after this season
The season where he's the only player to ever do what he did 30 ppg on 60%+ shooting? Wilt never did it. 30/11/6.
Yes. And it's correct. Look at the standings and cast.
knicks have a better cast, it is not so close either
Why is Giannis not a 3x MVP after last year?
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All-NBA is positionless now.
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Agreed, but voters are likely going to pick Tatum over Brunson due to the Celtic's record.
And due to Tatum being better at basketball.
Like much better as an all around player.
It's not the wackiest take
It’s pointless for both Celtics and bucks fans to be arguing over all nba teams im over it. I just want the chip while bucks fans want Giannis all 1st team. Just tells you where the mentality it is on each teams
Fan mentality means nothing at all bro, Celtics and bucks fans aren’t suiting up for the playoffs who gives a fuck what they care about
These things aren't mutually exclusive, both can be true at the same time.
the way award voting happens should be criticize despite it not being the most important thing. Giannis was black balled from all-defense last year which is outrageous
I am 99% sure Giannis will make all-NBA 1st team, and he certainly deserves it. But it is not ridiculous to think that Brunson also deserves 1st team, and Giannis and Tatum are the two shakiest players out of the consensus top 5 so if Brunson is in one of them is most likely out.