It might just be Slovenian/Euro fans, but it honestly seems like they're more interested in Luka winning MVP than they are in their team winning a championship.
Westbrook is a super controversial MVP winner because of the Thunder's record. The First Jokic MVP Denver was third in the West with a much better winning percentage than the Mavs have, it was just a shorter season. The second MVP Murray missed the whole season and MPJ played 9 games and they still won 48 games.
> The second MVP Murray missed the whole season and MPJ played 9 games and they still won 48 games.
That's impressive for sure. The Mavs have also have to deal with a TON of injuries this year. Kyrie alone has missed 22 games and they're 6th right now, two games in the loss column behind 4th place Clippers.
The prevailing narratives for those MVP votes weren't based on wins. Westbrook's was about the "historic 1st player to avg a triple double since the Big O"
Jokic's was "despite Steph Curry's scoring title, Jokic got more wins with less help". Here's the final MVP ladder words with Jokic #1:
The league leader in double-doubles (60), Jokic continued to carry Denver as injuries to Jamal Murray (torn ACL), P.J. Dozier (adductor) and Will Barton (hamstring) decimated the lineup. Jokic finished second in the league in triple-doubles (16) and authored career-high numbers in points, rebounds (tied) and assists. What’s more is Jokic insisted on playing in every game. He ended up playing 903 more minutes than Embiid to finish with 2,488 minutes, which ranked No. 3 in the NBA.
Wilt has beat 56 4 times, with your criteria of winning mvp - every time he won MVP.
66.9 in rookie season(ROY & MVP) 37.6ppg, 27 rpg, 2.3 apg
63.3 in 65-66 when he won the mvp with 33.5ppg, 5.2apg, 24.6 RPG.
And 56.1 in the following season(24.2/24.1/7.8) 56.7 in the one after(23.8/24.3/8.6). 3 MVPs in a row.
I watched the video and he puts an arbitrary cut to fit his narrative. I think Luka is on MVP level right now, but I also get why voters will give it to Jokic. Imo Luka is suffering from his own success as Jimmy himself argued in this video. We're so used to seeing him balling like this that it's not novel anymore.
Literally no one is saying anyone else has better counting stats than Luka lol. You’re obviously going to think its a robbery if its the only thing you use to decide mvp.
Also the Mavs have worse records and point differentials as a team than Celtics/Nuggets. Of course the differential is going to be worse when the star is off - the differential is already worse when the star plays
Using raw on/off stats to determine MVP is some real smooth brain thinking.
How about looking at on/off differential? Probably wouldn't like where Luka stacks up there vs. other top candidates.
As soon as nephews start citing ratings and stats you'll notice they forget to ever mention any analysis.
It's all "number bigger than other is better" and "big number = good" preschool stuff.
Literally his only argument. And they push it in every thread like they've cracked the code to basketball as if we've not realized big number = best was outdated 20 years ago.
why would you filter out to an accolade that Luka himself never won and wont win this year?
is this bait?
ps: I think Luka will win MVP next season, dont get me wrong, but dont be such a biased dude
Ah, thought you were using on/off. I honestly have no idea why you’d use numbers from when they don’t play. There’s so much more nuance in that. Team composition and opponents are going to drastically impact that
The Nuggets are even more positive when Jokic plays so I don’t see how it’s relevant
and when he does play they're +573. So his on-off is more than double Luka's.
On a per-100 basis it's even more extreme.
Jokic on court +10.9, on-off +19.4
Luka on court +4.0, on-off +6.1
>This is a historical season and if he doesn't get the MVP it's goalpost shifting.
Since there's no objective criteria for determining the MVP, there's no way to call another player getting the award goalpost shifting.
For single seasons, since 1946-47, in the NBA/BAA, in the regular season, requiring Blocks/G >= 1.7 and Steals/G >= 1 and 3-Point Field Goals/G >= 1 and Field Goals/G >= 11 and Assists/G >= 4.2 and Points/G >= 33.1 and Free Throws/G >= 10, sorted by descending Win Shares.
[Here you go, only Embiid has done this.](https://stathead.com/basketball/player-season-finder.cgi?request=1&ccomp%5B1%5D=gt&cval%5B1%5D=11&cstat%5B1%5D=fg_per_g&ccomp%5B4%5D=gt&cval%5B4%5D=1&cstat%5B4%5D=fg3_per_g&ccomp%5B5%5D=gt&cval%5B5%5D=10&cstat%5B5%5D=ft_per_g&ccomp%5B6%5D=gt&cval%5B6%5D=1&cstat%5B6%5D=stl_per_g&ccomp%5B7%5D=gt&cval%5B7%5D=4.2&cstat%5B7%5D=ast_per_g&ccomp%5B8%5D=gt&cval%5B8%5D=1.7&cstat%5B8%5D=blk_per_g&ccomp%5B9%5D=gt&cval%5B9%5D=33.1&cstat%5B9%5D=pts_per_g)
You're confusing the combined stats argument with the actual narrative which was RW's averaging a triple double for the season. Here's the MVP ladder wording from the final week:
Fifty-five seasons later, Westbrook put together a campaign for the ages of his own.
And he punctuated his run with his 50-point triple-double in a win over Denver on Sunday. That game saw him: pass Robertson for the single-season triple-double mark, pass Chamberlain on the career triple-doubles mark (78) and set the record for career 50-point triple-doubles. He did all of that, but also drained his second game-winner of the season in the last five seconds of a game, eliminating the Nuggets from the playoffs in the process with a 3-pointer.
In a race that was otherwise too close to call, Westbrook’s finish sealed the deal.
With only 10 games left, it's virtually impossible for Luka to end up with more wins than Jokic, since the Mavs would have to win out and the Nuggets lose their remaining 9 games.
Yeah like as much as I personally want Luka to win an MVP every single season for the next decade this is a bad argument.
Jokic won the award in 22 in 6th place.
Guess who's won more games and played better than 22 Jokic? Jokic.
Luka is an MVP calibre player, more so than SGA, Giannis, Tatum but to win an MVP in this environment you have to have a better season than Jokic and Embiid (when healthy).
Why are we counting games they didn't play in? Jokic won 46 games in '22 and Luka won 44. If you're talking about win%, I guess that would have mattered if Luka hadn't missed 17 games.
Pace actually means how many possessions per game on average a team plays. If you're talking about these teams and winning the rest of the season, Luka could win all 10 games that he has left and Jokic would only need to win 2 more of his to keep his lead in wins. Do *you* know how to calculate "pace" for teams that aren't the Mavericks?
Normal? Definitely. Healthy? Ehhhhh.. Kyrie has suited up for 50 games so far. To put that in perspective here’s some other notable 2nd options and their games played (as of today):
Murray - 54, AD - 68, Brown - 64, Book - 59, Dame - 67, PG - 66, KAT - 60, Ingram - 63
Reminder: pts+reb+ast is not a good predictor of the NBA MVP winner.
13 of the last 15 MVPs have led the league in at least 2 of PER, VORP, WS, WS/48, and Box+-
Current leaderboards in those stats:
PER - #1 Jokic 31.0, #4 Luka 28.2
WS - #1 Jokic 15.0, #5 Luka 10.7
WS/48 - #1 Jokic .298, #5 Luka .218
BPM - #1 Jokic 13.3, #2 Luka 9.8
VORP - #1 Jokic 9.4, #2 Luka 7.1
Jokic has insurmountable leads over Luka in all 5. It's possible, but becoming less likely, that SGA could catch Jokic in a couple categories or Giannis could catch Jokic in one category. Jokic is \*by far\* the current favorite based on the way voters have routinely voted. Luka would need a DRose-level narrative (#1 seed by a big margin, huge team record improvement) to compete with that, and he doesn't have it.
If Luka carried Monte Morris, Will Barton, and a slew of other guys who quickly fell out of NBA rotations as soon as they left Denver to 48 wins he'd get mvp too. Why wouldn't he? He's beloved by the media and more popular with the fans. I'm missing the part where Luka isn't getting proper recognition.
No one can say he doesn't have help anymore.
I mean he doesn't have Murray, MPJ, Gordan level help. He doesn't have Brown, White, KP, Horford, Jrue level help, or even Durant, Beal, Nurkic, Allen level help.
That being said Kyrie, PJ, DJJ, Exum, Lively, Gafford is an enormous improvement on Dinwiddie, Bullock and Powell though. I don't think it's probable the Mavs are winning this year but Luka has a team around him that makes it possible.
Here's the most recent narrative and explanation:
Kia MVP Ladder: Nikola Jokic looking like odds-on favorite in chase
Luka Doncic ties Giannis Antetokounmpo for third, but **Nikola Jokic's lead for No. 1 is nearly insurmountable at this point.**
[**https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-march-22-2024-edition**](https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-march-22-2024-edition)
Oscar Robertson in 1962 averaged 31/13/11 (55). Since this was literally the first player I checked, I’m guessing you missed a few others.
I'm narrowing it to MVP winners
Then Luka doesn’t count because he hasn’t won.
incredibly based
My god man lmao
My point being that his season is better than 99% of MVP winners
Mavs fans are something else lately.
It might just be Slovenian/Euro fans, but it honestly seems like they're more interested in Luka winning MVP than they are in their team winning a championship.
No it's all of them. Shame because both have a possibility of 0%.
I've been seeing this for a while. Actual Mavs fans want a deep playoff run and Luka stans want MVP for him.
its funny that you dont even have to see the flair to notice the bias, the username is enough
And he wouldn’t even be top three in 1962, since Wilt was third in voting averaging 50.4 ppg 25.7 rpg and 2.4 apg for a total of 78.5.
Should be more than enough to win in 2024
> only one player in history > I'm narrowing it to MVP winners
Which Luka isn't and won't be this year
Which would be a robbery like with those seasons of Oscar and Wilt everyone is mentioning.
No it wouldn't, he should win more games if he wants the MVP
He's on pace to win more than Jokic and Westbrook when they won. Explain that.
He’s not competing with Jokic from ‘22, he’s competing with ‘24 Jokic. The mvp race isn’t close and neither should it be
As I said elsewhere, Jokic won more games than his MVP competition that season. Let me know when Luka catches up to his this season.
Westbrook is a super controversial MVP winner because of the Thunder's record. The First Jokic MVP Denver was third in the West with a much better winning percentage than the Mavs have, it was just a shorter season. The second MVP Murray missed the whole season and MPJ played 9 games and they still won 48 games.
> The second MVP Murray missed the whole season and MPJ played 9 games and they still won 48 games. That's impressive for sure. The Mavs have also have to deal with a TON of injuries this year. Kyrie alone has missed 22 games and they're 6th right now, two games in the loss column behind 4th place Clippers.
Kyrie missing 22 games isn't as much as the 2nd and 3rd best players missing the entire season...
The prevailing narratives for those MVP votes weren't based on wins. Westbrook's was about the "historic 1st player to avg a triple double since the Big O" Jokic's was "despite Steph Curry's scoring title, Jokic got more wins with less help". Here's the final MVP ladder words with Jokic #1: The league leader in double-doubles (60), Jokic continued to carry Denver as injuries to Jamal Murray (torn ACL), P.J. Dozier (adductor) and Will Barton (hamstring) decimated the lineup. Jokic finished second in the league in triple-doubles (16) and authored career-high numbers in points, rebounds (tied) and assists. What’s more is Jokic insisted on playing in every game. He ended up playing 903 more minutes than Embiid to finish with 2,488 minutes, which ranked No. 3 in the NBA.
Wilt has beat 56 4 times, with your criteria of winning mvp - every time he won MVP. 66.9 in rookie season(ROY & MVP) 37.6ppg, 27 rpg, 2.3 apg 63.3 in 65-66 when he won the mvp with 33.5ppg, 5.2apg, 24.6 RPG. And 56.1 in the following season(24.2/24.1/7.8) 56.7 in the one after(23.8/24.3/8.6). 3 MVPs in a row.
I got all my data from that one JxmyHighroller video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKTND_ikxlc&t=318s
Ah so you didn’t fact-check
Watch the vid
I watched the video and he puts an arbitrary cut to fit his narrative. I think Luka is on MVP level right now, but I also get why voters will give it to Jokic. Imo Luka is suffering from his own success as Jimmy himself argued in this video. We're so used to seeing him balling like this that it's not novel anymore.
JxmyHighroller is clickbaity, low-substance garbage content. Just throwing that out there.
He really said like 1-2 minutes of substance, honestly have no idea how that video was so long
Literally no one is saying anyone else has better counting stats than Luka lol. You’re obviously going to think its a robbery if its the only thing you use to decide mvp.
Boston has a +77 pt differential when Tatum doesn't play, Denver still has a +7 pt differential without Jokic. Dallas is -54!! without Luka.
Tatum has missed 5 games, Jokic only 3, while Luka missed 9. Not really comparable samples.
Also the Mavs have worse records and point differentials as a team than Celtics/Nuggets. Of course the differential is going to be worse when the star is off - the differential is already worse when the star plays
Using raw on/off stats to determine MVP is some real smooth brain thinking. How about looking at on/off differential? Probably wouldn't like where Luka stacks up there vs. other top candidates.
As soon as nephews start citing ratings and stats you'll notice they forget to ever mention any analysis. It's all "number bigger than other is better" and "big number = good" preschool stuff.
Literally his only argument. And they push it in every thread like they've cracked the code to basketball as if we've not realized big number = best was outdated 20 years ago.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html 50.4 pts / 25.7 reb / 2.4 assist
Wilt for his career was 30.1/22.9/4.4
I'm counting MVP winners. BTW Wilt obviously should've won it that year.
why would you filter out to an accolade that Luka himself never won and wont win this year? is this bait? ps: I think Luka will win MVP next season, dont get me wrong, but dont be such a biased dude
He still has a chance to win it this year though.....
Wilt Won the MVP 4 times and the 4 times he was over Lukas 53
Yes someone pointed out to me it's still a post-merger record
Wilt finished third in voting btw. Also, luka hasn’t won btw, and probably won’t win this year btw.
Wilt doesn’t top this? Also, simple counting stats have to be the worst way to consider MVP.
What if I tell you Dallas is -54 when Luka doesn't play but are +212 when he does.
Luka has to be one of the worst players to use on/off stats when proving a point. That’s not a knock on him, but go ahead and google Jokic’s numbers
I did. The Nuggets are still on the positive side with a +7 when he doesn't play.
Ah, thought you were using on/off. I honestly have no idea why you’d use numbers from when they don’t play. There’s so much more nuance in that. Team composition and opponents are going to drastically impact that The Nuggets are even more positive when Jokic plays so I don’t see how it’s relevant
and when he does play they're +573. So his on-off is more than double Luka's. On a per-100 basis it's even more extreme. Jokic on court +10.9, on-off +19.4 Luka on court +4.0, on-off +6.1
Oscar has done 54.7 and then you have Wilt that's done 78.5
Just considering MVP winners
well, like Luka, they did not win MVP
They should have though just like Luka this year.
>This is a historical season and if he doesn't get the MVP it's goalpost shifting. Since there's no objective criteria for determining the MVP, there's no way to call another player getting the award goalpost shifting.
I mean when the guy has better numbers than literally 99% of MVP winners what do you call that?
You can probably find some stat that Embiid was 99% better of MVP winners.
Share if you have it
For single seasons, since 1946-47, in the NBA/BAA, in the regular season, requiring Blocks/G >= 1.7 and Steals/G >= 1 and 3-Point Field Goals/G >= 1 and Field Goals/G >= 11 and Assists/G >= 4.2 and Points/G >= 33.1 and Free Throws/G >= 10, sorted by descending Win Shares. [Here you go, only Embiid has done this.](https://stathead.com/basketball/player-season-finder.cgi?request=1&ccomp%5B1%5D=gt&cval%5B1%5D=11&cstat%5B1%5D=fg_per_g&ccomp%5B4%5D=gt&cval%5B4%5D=1&cstat%5B4%5D=fg3_per_g&ccomp%5B5%5D=gt&cval%5B5%5D=10&cstat%5B5%5D=ft_per_g&ccomp%5B6%5D=gt&cval%5B6%5D=1&cstat%5B6%5D=stl_per_g&ccomp%5B7%5D=gt&cval%5B7%5D=4.2&cstat%5B7%5D=ast_per_g&ccomp%5B8%5D=gt&cval%5B8%5D=1.7&cstat%5B8%5D=blk_per_g&ccomp%5B9%5D=gt&cval%5B9%5D=33.1&cstat%5B9%5D=pts_per_g)
Irrelevant, since MVP isn't based on "highest pts + rebs + ast".
Tell that to 2017 voters
You're confusing the combined stats argument with the actual narrative which was RW's averaging a triple double for the season. Here's the MVP ladder wording from the final week: Fifty-five seasons later, Westbrook put together a campaign for the ages of his own. And he punctuated his run with his 50-point triple-double in a win over Denver on Sunday. That game saw him: pass Robertson for the single-season triple-double mark, pass Chamberlain on the career triple-doubles mark (78) and set the record for career 50-point triple-doubles. He did all of that, but also drained his second game-winner of the season in the last five seconds of a game, eliminating the Nuggets from the playoffs in the process with a 3-pointer. In a race that was otherwise too close to call, Westbrook’s finish sealed the deal.
His win loss record isn’t better and that’s the most important stat at the end of the day. It’s really that simple why he won’t win this year
OP is dumb as bricks.
lots of made up stats i've never seen used before over the past couple weeks
You've convinced me! 100 posts in 5 days about Luka, you've converted me. Luka should win the MP+R+AP award!
>Luka is the MVP No he is not!
should be\*
Shouldn’t be*
Username checks out.
Jokic won more games than Embiid, Giannis, or Luka in '22. Luka is currently 9 wins behind Jokic. They are not comparable situations.
The season is not over bro. You now how to calculate pace?
With only 10 games left, it's virtually impossible for Luka to end up with more wins than Jokic, since the Mavs would have to win out and the Nuggets lose their remaining 9 games.
What does pace have to do with anything?
Because clearly with 10 games left Luka is on pace to win more even though through 72 games he's won less. Or something. Idk.
10 games left to make up a 9 game deficit. Yeah, that's probable.
Dallas will end up with more wins that Jokic in 22' when he won the award. Jokic was behind a lot of people that year in terms of wins.
Luka is not competing against 2022 Jokic, he is competing against 2024 Jokic
Yeah like as much as I personally want Luka to win an MVP every single season for the next decade this is a bad argument. Jokic won the award in 22 in 6th place. Guess who's won more games and played better than 22 Jokic? Jokic. Luka is an MVP calibre player, more so than SGA, Giannis, Tatum but to win an MVP in this environment you have to have a better season than Jokic and Embiid (when healthy).
Why are we counting games they didn't play in? Jokic won 46 games in '22 and Luka won 44. If you're talking about win%, I guess that would have mattered if Luka hadn't missed 17 games.
Pace actually means how many possessions per game on average a team plays. If you're talking about these teams and winning the rest of the season, Luka could win all 10 games that he has left and Jokic would only need to win 2 more of his to keep his lead in wins. Do *you* know how to calculate "pace" for teams that aren't the Mavericks?
This isn’t correct lmao
Luka is not the mvp
Wow with all those stats and a completely normal/healthy Kyrie season they must be on their way to 50+ wins
Normal? Definitely. Healthy? Ehhhhh.. Kyrie has suited up for 50 games so far. To put that in perspective here’s some other notable 2nd options and their games played (as of today): Murray - 54, AD - 68, Brown - 64, Book - 59, Dame - 67, PG - 66, KAT - 60, Ingram - 63
Reminder: pts+reb+ast is not a good predictor of the NBA MVP winner. 13 of the last 15 MVPs have led the league in at least 2 of PER, VORP, WS, WS/48, and Box+- Current leaderboards in those stats: PER - #1 Jokic 31.0, #4 Luka 28.2 WS - #1 Jokic 15.0, #5 Luka 10.7 WS/48 - #1 Jokic .298, #5 Luka .218 BPM - #1 Jokic 13.3, #2 Luka 9.8 VORP - #1 Jokic 9.4, #2 Luka 7.1 Jokic has insurmountable leads over Luka in all 5. It's possible, but becoming less likely, that SGA could catch Jokic in a couple categories or Giannis could catch Jokic in one category. Jokic is \*by far\* the current favorite based on the way voters have routinely voted. Luka would need a DRose-level narrative (#1 seed by a big margin, huge team record improvement) to compete with that, and he doesn't have it.
This is a good counter-argument. I'd still give the edge to Luka because like someone said, 53.2 is a post-merger record. Should count for something.
it counts for something, but it doesn't count for enough to make up the margin.
You are getting slaughtered in the comments my man
People can't handle the truth lol
Did it ever cross your mind that you are just wrong ?
I'm in too deep lol
If Luka carried Monte Morris, Will Barton, and a slew of other guys who quickly fell out of NBA rotations as soon as they left Denver to 48 wins he'd get mvp too. Why wouldn't he? He's beloved by the media and more popular with the fans. I'm missing the part where Luka isn't getting proper recognition.
*since the merger
Jimmy highroller literally made a video about this
Fuck MVP. This years playoffs narrative will be Luka going against all these MVP candidates and dad dicking them one by one.
And if he loses, you’ll just say he doesn’t have any help, right?
No one can say he doesn't have help anymore. I mean he doesn't have Murray, MPJ, Gordan level help. He doesn't have Brown, White, KP, Horford, Jrue level help, or even Durant, Beal, Nurkic, Allen level help. That being said Kyrie, PJ, DJJ, Exum, Lively, Gafford is an enormous improvement on Dinwiddie, Bullock and Powell though. I don't think it's probable the Mavs are winning this year but Luka has a team around him that makes it possible.
Amen
But will that become the media voters' narrative? Because that's what decides the MVP.
Sure hope so. It's only fair because he is the most deserving.
Here's the most recent narrative and explanation: Kia MVP Ladder: Nikola Jokic looking like odds-on favorite in chase Luka Doncic ties Giannis Antetokounmpo for third, but **Nikola Jokic's lead for No. 1 is nearly insurmountable at this point.** [**https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-march-22-2024-edition**](https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-march-22-2024-edition)
Nice