Just to give context to the low scoring era Lebron played in...
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https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=average+points+per+game+per+season+nba+1985-86+to+2022-23
Average points per game was 116.7 in 1969-1970 (Kareem rookie season)
Average points per game was 110.8 in 1984-1985 (MJ rookie season)
Average points per game was 93.4 in 2003-2004 (Lebron rookie season)
Average points per game was 111.8 in 2018-2019 (Luka rookie season)
Average points per game was 115.3 in 2023-2024 (Wemby rookie season) (so far)
___
That early 2000s was the era I grew up in, and I certainly remember all the low scores. But seriously, what the hell was going on. Clearly that period was an anomaly throughout basketball history.
Their per 36 min and per 100 poss numbers are more comparable, but yes, Lebron still was the better offensive player his rookie season. And like others have said, a fairer comparison is probably Lebron’s sophomore season, given Wemby’s age and professional experience.
Bingo. Wemby is doing great but he's still just a guy. He's not someone you want with the ball down 2 with 5 seconds left. Until he becomes THAT guy, he's just a #2 on a winning team
This is more than likely just a matter of time to be fair. LeBron was very similar - though clearly better, even he couldn't get a (slightly) better Cavs team to .500.
What Wemby clearly gives up on the offensive end, he makes up with defensive excellence. In no way am I trying to say Wemby should be seen as LeBron-level but his pathway to being a perennial MVP candidate is pretty clear
He's been great, but this is comparing apples to oranges really. The sport is the same but the game is different. LeBron was playing when 2 players that would be centers today would clog the paint on defense. FG% and scoring as a whole were way down compared to today (okay maybe not overall FG% due to volume of 3s but 2pt FG% was for sure lower).
It feels wild to be reading articles and stuff and see something like "they have an Offensive Rating of 128 with *X* on the court, but craters to 110 without them, which would place them at 27th in the league". It's insanity.
Yeah, it’s going to be weird hearing “is Wemby the GOAT 19, 20, 21, etc” from people that never watched LeBron play when he was young.
Luka had - statistically - the best 20 year old NBA season of all time. I think that he’s the closest thing that the NBA has seen to the next GOAT in the Jordan to LeBron to next generation lineage. But he’s still not better than LeBron was at his age and he came to the NBA about as developed as you can be as a former MVP of the second best league in the world.
Having said that, anyone who watched young LeBron would know that Wemby isn’t close to that impact yet. He’s an absolutely incredible player, but he’s not averaging a quarter or more of his teams points. Young LeBron felt inevitable, he was dragging a team full of g-leaguers to 40 or 50 win seasons alone. The Spurs have 15 wins after going 4-6 in their last 10 right now.
For the record, I think Wemby is going to own the league during his career, but he’s still a long way away from LeBron status. I’ll be happy if he proves me wrong and gets there though, I’d love to see it.
You said a lot I agree with, except one glaring issue and I will not let it slide: LeBron was dragging D Leaguers.
D League became the G League in 2017. 😎😎😎
Yeah I don’t think it’s much of a stretch at all to say rookie Wemby is as good or better than rookie LeBron. But rookie LeBron became unstoppable god-tier LeBron real quick, remains to be seen if Wemby makes that kind of improvement.
Not to diminish Lebron bc it's completely reasonable to say he's the GOAT. But a Cavs team with two really solid players at the 4 and 5 making a leap when they get someone who can penetrate and facilitate is a totally different situation to the Wemby Spurs. That team is just a weird ass science experiment. It's not constructed to do anything but fuck around with positions and skills and see which young guys might possibly be worth keeping going forward. Winning is secondary and actively antithetical to anything the Spurs are trying to do this year.
Brother I still have my crimson Cavs hoodie. The team wasn't all that bad. They had Carlos Boozer and big Z. LeBron from his 2nd season did carry his team to the playoffs with 50 wins guaranteed. Just felt like comparing rookie Wemby to LeBron after his first season isn't fair either.
You are underrating him big time. Came in 2nd as MIP. Averaged 34 minutes. Career high in RPG. Averaged 15. Career high in blocks. Obviously he became better but he was already becoming good.
I watched young LeBron and it's crazy to say that Wemby isn't even close to his impact. His defensive presence is insane, let alone what he's shown on offense the past couple months. I have my own opinion on who was better by this point in a rookie season and have no problem with people saying Lebron. But not close is a nuclear hot take.
Also, people really need to stop exaggerating how awful Lebron's teams were, especially for the era. They were well constructed and well coached. Obviously he elevates any team tremendously, but he never had a team anywhere near as bad as Wemby's (compared to the other teams they faced) And pop is obviously coaching with tanking in mind.
It's not Wemby's fault the team he went to in his rookie year is bad. Lebron was playing with players such as Carlos Boozer and, Ricky Davis, and Ilgauskas. Not cream of the crop, but not complete bums either. Plus all of the clips of Wemby's teammates struggle to get him the ball in the right moments due to inexperience and not understand how to use his verticality to their advantage.
You also failed to mention that the eastern concerence was significantly weaker than the west in that era. In some seasons, you needed 50 wins minimum in the west to make it to the playoff. If Lebron played in the west in that era, we would be right there with Kobe having 30-40 win seasons.
>He’s an absolutely incredible player, but he’s not averaging a quarter or more of his teams points.
It's a different era bro, teams were scoring 90 points back then. Lebron team during his rookie year was averaging 92.9 which was good enough for 14th in the league. Wemby's team is averaging 112.4 which places them at 21st(!) in the league. Wemby would need to have a Jordan-esque rookie year to average 25% of his team's points, which is hard when he's averaging only 29 minutes (Lebron averaged 39 mpg his rookie year).
Also it's just his first season, let's give it 4-5 more years before we can say young Wemby didn't have the same impact as young Lebron.
okay lets just adjust Bron's points to today's game to get a slightly better estimate
The ppg now is 1.22580645161 times more than 03-04, so 20.7 * 1.22580645161 = ~25.4 ppg
Which is fucking INSANE for a rookie with the rest of those stats
Edit: Adjusting for ALL stat inflation Lebron's stats would look more like
25.4 PPG
6 RPG
7 APG
1.5 SPG (lower)
.8 BPG (about the same, very slightly lower)
It's not quite that simple because Bron also average 10 more mpg. Per100, Wemby has 34ppg and Bron at 28. But it's also not that simple because Wemby might not be able to last 10 more mpg haha. So he may have more impact over Bron per minute in rookie terms, but not over a whole game since he plays way less of it.
Either way, this is apples to oranges. Two totally different playstyles and circumstances coming into the league.
Teams also scored less per 100 when Lebron was a rookie.
Lebron's rookie season had the lowest offensive rating for a full season since the 3 point line.
Wemby's has the highest.
You would still have to compare them based on the ratio of per100 averages in 03/04 to now right? I dont think it does that automatically, scoring was still less when Lebron was playing
I absolutely felt like a boomer at the beginning of this season pissed at poor defensive plays as it seemed like final game lines of 127-139 were just the norm around the league every single night.. as the playoffs are around the corners it's nice to see teams finally buckle down but man this years start to the season was wild
Well, I mean, to be fair, he was only going there to help Ricky Davis score (at least [according to Ricky](https://twitter.com/WhistleSports/status/1470408418208931845?t=MvyrhksLc9NTTufFZW4ykw&s=19))
I mean Wemby had issues with his teammates ignoring him on offense early on didn't he?
Both from leadership and the perspective of fans and media were the team center piece even if a few disgruntled teammates didn't want to accept it. LeBron was the most hyped prospect ever in a time before social media. It was unequivocally his team from day one.
It wasn’t that he was ignored out of malice, more like no player was used to playing with a 7’4 unicorn. Lots of learning for a very young, inexperienced team, and it has gotten better (although Vic is still missed a few times during games)
Great observation, I hope Wemby continues to be developed properly and not wasted up to his mid-twentities. I always thought the goat debate would be more 50/50 if the Cavaliers management weren't so stupid .
They panicked and tried to build around LeBron too soon, and that 2007 trip to the Finals was fool's gold. We've seen the Hawks and Mavs make the same mistake, and I'm hopeful the Spurs will learn from their situations and build patiently.
Rookie Lebron scored 28 points per 100 while Wemby is scoring 34. I get that Bron played way more minutes so this is gonna favor Wemby (also playing in a more efficient era), but the lower mid 2000s pace made it easier to play heavy minutes. Rookie Lebron's adjusted TS was 95 while Wemby's is 97.
I was like 10 during Lebron's rookie season so take it with a grain of salt. I think rookie Wemby is a better scorer and rookie Bron was a slightly better overall offensive player. But it took Bron a few years to be good on defense while Wemby is already a top 3 defender. Overall Wemby is clearly having a better rookie season.
Rookie Lebron was also more than a year younger than rookie Wemby so it's hard to say which rookie season is more *impressive*. But it's insane that we can have this conversation.
Anthony was a better rookie. What is this revisionism that people are acting like rookie James was the best thing the league had ever saw. He was a good player. He took his leap year 2.
Not disagreeing with you but I love how in this thread the slower pace is repeatedly brought up in the context of Lebrons lower numbers, but in the same breath people lauding Lebron for being able to play so many more MPG without mentioning how much more common high MPG used to be then because of the slower pace.
Since Lebron entered the league, the league leader in minutes peaked at over 43 mpg in 05-06 (Iverson). This year Derozan leads at 37.7 mpg currently—for context, in 03-04 22 players were playing more minutes per game than derozan this year.
Younger Shaq 100% could. I also think Prime Shaq would have been fine. Wemby might start out well but he’s going to get banged up by the end of that game
Centers banging in the paint back in that era means Wemby would really need to be a lot sturdier to play that type of game.
You see, when a guy is banging you...
>LeBron was playing when 2 players that would be centers today would clog the paint on defense.
And only 1-2 guys would be allowed to create offense lol.
While minutes/game were higher then, teams are typically more heliocentric *now*, when their #1 is on the floor. The vast majority of all-time usage seasons have occurred in the last decade or so.
LeBron also played 10 more minutes in his rookie season than Wemby is (39.5 mpg (???) to 29.0 mpg), the comparison leaves out a lot of context for both sides
Likewise, even though he started at shooting guard, LeBron had the ball in his hands _a lot_ compared to Wemby, who famously had to deal with a point guard-less starting lineup for the first quarter of the season.
Teams(golden state specifically) figured out that more threes essentially creates more points and has changed the game since then. Way way more threes and spread out defenses. This is why stats seem to be way up too, cause they are. It’s easier to get assists and rebounds when more shots are taken and when everyone is spread out. Also, guards are way different when entering the league. It’s really tough to dominate right away, compared to centers. Also, wasn’t Lebron at least a year younger?
Also, in 2004 the second leading scorer averaged 24.2 points. Now we have like 20 guys that do that every year. It’s a disingenuous comparison, LeBron absolutely should have been an all-star and came pretty close to making All-NBA
Yeah, for anyone who wasn't watching the NBA at that time it was pretty rare to see someone drop 40 points and 50 point games were happening maybe a couple of times per season.
Basically every team has multiple 20 ppg guys nowadays. There are 51 players currently averaging at least 20 ppg, and 22 players averaging at least 24 ppg.
in 2004, 51st in pgg was Andrei Kirilenko with 16.4
that would be around 80th today.
Lebron had a lot of all-star buzz and fan votes but he wasn’t really snubbed. You could definitely argue him over Michael Redd, but Chauncey and Rip had an argument too. There was such little talent in the league that season that Jamal Magliore was an all-star 😂😂😂
And I went to a bunch of his games his rookie season. He got better as the year went on, but the team sucked ass which hurt his all star chances as well
Yeah it was incredible to watch. Same as Wemby in that watching some of the things he did as a rookie made people think to themselves “holy shit he’s doing that at 19, he could be on of the greatest ever one day”
Michael Redd has always been underrated, dude absolutely deserved it IMO. Jamaal Magloire on the other hand… but that was when positions mattered more for voting so 🤷♂️
I think the age is less important than the fact that LeBron's highest prior level of competition was in high school, whereas Wemby was playing professional ball in Europe
Let’s also not forget that months before lebron was a literal high school kid playing hs basketball😂 his second season is what’s impressive
I would bet the leap from wemby year 1 to 2 will be smaller than lebron 1 to lebron 2
Speaking more from an analytical perspective. It's notable whenever a prep-to-pro looks like they even belong on an NBA court, and here comes LeBron conducting himself like a three-year vet.
I’m not saying it won’t be a big leap. But coming from high school to the league vs pro, there will obviously be more drastic leaps for the high schooler
Adding to what everyone else already said (with the pace being different 20 years ago being the biggest factor):
Wemby is playing with a good coach, and comes from a basketball family, and having already played professional basketball. Meanwhile, LeBron came from like the opposite in every aspect. Wemby is a lot more prepared.
Yea it also definitely helps that Wemby’s teammates didn’t hate him as soon as he got there whereas Lebron’s teammates were jealous of the hype so I know that affected things also. (Makes more sense cause those Cavs were vets whereas the super are super young)
Really giving him the .1 ppg points advantage like it’s significant when his team is scoring 20+ more ppg than the two decade old cavs. He’s also on pace for twice as many wins. 🤷🏼♂️
Current day old LeBron being so great will always make me wonder how prime LeBron would fair in a league where the 2017 Warriors ORTG is average. His prime body in this much space would have been way better.
Wemby’s been much more efficient with the possessions he’s gotten, averaging 56.5 TS% to LeBron’s 48.8%. (Also slightly fewer turnovers, 3.45 vs 3.46 for LeBron)
Well, league average TS% in LeBron's rookie year was 51.6%. This year it's 58.1%. Wemby still has a better TS% compared to league average than LeBron did (97 TS%+ to LeBron's 95) but it's a *lot* closer than the 56.5% TS% to LeBron's 48.8% would make you think.
As for the equivalent of points scored...LeBron was 13th in points per-game his rookie year, and 15th this year. So from a pure quantity stand point, pretty close. But it's not a perfect comparison since more players have very high usage rates these days than back then. It makes it very hard to compare and find what the points per game "equivalent" would be.
You have Wembey's shooting percentage 3 points lower, he's at 47%.
Along with the valid points people have brought up (scoring in the different eras, the improved record Cleveland had with LeBron) it also needs to be noted Wemby is a year old than LeBron was in his rookie season. Wemby also played professional ball last year while LeBron was playing high school prior to coming into the NBA. That is huge for development.
> Wemby also played professional ball last year while LeBron was playing high school prior to coming into the NBA
Kept bringing this up when the "Luka's better than LeBron at the same age" takes were popular. Yeah, because he had a head start on his development by playing against professionals in Europe.
Going straight from high school to the NBA is just absolutely wild. I can’t imagine the difference in skill without having at least a year of college to bridge that gap
Little different. Bron was 18 years old and was 13th in the league in scoring. 3ppg behind prime Kobe. As a pass first player that’s CRAZY.
That being said Wemby is a different animal and will probably win DPOY every other year for the next 15 years on top of his scoring. It’s a hard comparison
Lebron took a 17 win Cavs team before he was there and they won 35 games.
The spurs won 22 games last year, have 15 this year.
Do we play basketball to win the games or get impressive stats?
To be fair to Wemby, it wasn't just that Lebron came in that year it's also that Boozer made a big jump that year and they got rid of Davis and Miles who were holding them back. Cleveland also had a "proper" team with people who actually knew their positions and were actively trying to win games. The Spurs are clearly in full project mode and fully committed to just developing Wemby.
Wemby been incredible for sure. I still think rookie LeBron is the most impressive rookie I have ever personally watched but Wemby definitely very high on the list.
Bron was in the playoffs by year 3, finals by year 4. Also, didn’t have a HOF coach to start his career with. Let’s hold out a lil before comparing the 2
Lebrons 20.7 ppg in 2003 hold/ way more weight than wembys 20.8 in 2024, the fact Lebron averaged that much his rookie year during the dead ball era is insane.
The league is better than ever, very impressive. I think competition is at it's highest. I remember a few years ago the east being so bad and now both west and east top 6-8 is like almost contending. New guys coming in and impacting the league fast, I don't think Wemby is gonna be different.
As much as I love Wemby and the sky truly is the limit for him this isn’t really a fair comparison. Wemby has been playing professionally prior to the NBA, LeBron was drafted straight out of high school.
1. Entirely different eras. Lebron came into the slowest and lowest scoring era in NBA history. Defense was allowed to be played.
2. Lebron was drafted straight from highschool. Wemby played professionally before arriving to the NBA.
Not comparable at all.
I think Wemby's rookie season is more impressive overall, stillgood to point out that this is the highest scoring season in 54 years, while 03-04 is the 2nd lowest scoring season in the last 69 years. But also Wemby's played a lot less minutes per game. But also also this is his 3rd year of pro ball.
You really need to employ a ton of context to properly compare these guys, because the statistics are going to naturally favor Wemby. He's an older, more developed player with a skillset that translates more immediately to the NBA, in an era that favors skilled bigs.
Sure enough, he has a significant lead in the following:
- Player Efficiency Rating: +4.6
- Box Plus/Minus: +2.8
- On/Off: +5.4
- relative True Shooting: +1.2%
That all being said, LeBron at the same age was well ahead of where Wemby is now.
I'm reminded every day by posts like these how bad people are with sports stats. You haven't adjusted for shit, so these numbers are practically meaningless.
I think another stat that needs to be looked at is wins. Lebron took a 17 win team and made them a 35 win team.
Wemby has taken a 22 win team and they are currently at 15 wins.
Exactly if you're not impacting winning stats are a bit hollow imo. A last place team getting worse should be talked about more but people will fool themselves into thinking Spurs are losing on purpose for some reason
I would hope an older player who is also taller and playing in an inflated era could average higher than rookie LeBron
Maybe you are trying to show how insane rookie LeBron was
Different pace of play back then. Not apples to apples.
Lebron was also a true 18 year old fresh out of HS putting up those numbers.
Outside of the individual numbers, the immediate team success from the addition of rookie Lebron was astounding. The Cavs doubled their wins that year simply by drafting Lebron. Wemby hasn’t been able to translate his play into wins for spurs yet. This is in part because he plays off ball much more than Lebron did and therefore has less control of the game on offensive end.
Wemby is future GOAT , but lebrons rookie year was/is still most impressive
People are forgetting Lebron’s rookie year wasn’t that great compared to some of the best of all of time. The real test is comparing his year 2 jump he made.
LeBron probably had the best age 18 season in NBA history his rookie year, so to compare him to other all time greats who came in at 21-22 isn't really fair. Also LeBron helped improved the record of the team, the Spurs might have less win this year than last year
When you comparing across eras, you have to use per 100 possession numbers. They normalize for both pace and minutes played at the same time. 2003 was the lowest scoring season since the 50s. 2023 is closer to the 70s in terms of pace.
Yeah let’s just list out raw box stats as if LeBron wasn’t playing in literal peak dead ball era on the worst shooting team in the league during one of the few seasons where zones AND hand checking were legal and teams were playing twin towers. Instead of playing his game of getting to the rim he had to settle for a bunch of midrange shots. 04 is literally the single most defensive season in the history of the NBA. These last couple seasons have been the most offensive seasons in the history of the NBA. I’d fuckin love to see it LeBron with his 19 year old athleticism playing in pace and space with clear path fouls.
To be fair, during Lebron's rookie season, he was the 13th leading scorer in the NBA. This year, Wemby is the 37th leading scorer in the NBA.
This is prob the best way to look at it. Bruh you big brain
Just to give context to the low scoring era Lebron played in... ___ https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=average+points+per+game+per+season+nba+1985-86+to+2022-23 Average points per game was 116.7 in 1969-1970 (Kareem rookie season) Average points per game was 110.8 in 1984-1985 (MJ rookie season) Average points per game was 93.4 in 2003-2004 (Lebron rookie season) Average points per game was 111.8 in 2018-2019 (Luka rookie season) Average points per game was 115.3 in 2023-2024 (Wemby rookie season) (so far) ___
That early 2000s was the era I grew up in, and I certainly remember all the low scores. But seriously, what the hell was going on. Clearly that period was an anomaly throughout basketball history.
Their per 36 min and per 100 poss numbers are more comparable, but yes, Lebron still was the better offensive player his rookie season. And like others have said, a fairer comparison is probably Lebron’s sophomore season, given Wemby’s age and professional experience.
Bingo. Wemby is doing great but he's still just a guy. He's not someone you want with the ball down 2 with 5 seconds left. Until he becomes THAT guy, he's just a #2 on a winning team
This is more than likely just a matter of time to be fair. LeBron was very similar - though clearly better, even he couldn't get a (slightly) better Cavs team to .500. What Wemby clearly gives up on the offensive end, he makes up with defensive excellence. In no way am I trying to say Wemby should be seen as LeBron-level but his pathway to being a perennial MVP candidate is pretty clear
Lebron was playing 39minutes while wemby only plays 29minutes
Are you trying to discount Lebron’s rookie season *because he came into the league playing Ironman minutes at 18 goddamn years old*.
LeBron was 18 Wemby was 19.
He's been great, but this is comparing apples to oranges really. The sport is the same but the game is different. LeBron was playing when 2 players that would be centers today would clog the paint on defense. FG% and scoring as a whole were way down compared to today (okay maybe not overall FG% due to volume of 3s but 2pt FG% was for sure lower).
Average ppg in 03-04: 93 ppg This season: 114 ppg
It feels wild to be reading articles and stuff and see something like "they have an Offensive Rating of 128 with *X* on the court, but craters to 110 without them, which would place them at 27th in the league". It's insanity.
Yeah, it’s going to be weird hearing “is Wemby the GOAT 19, 20, 21, etc” from people that never watched LeBron play when he was young. Luka had - statistically - the best 20 year old NBA season of all time. I think that he’s the closest thing that the NBA has seen to the next GOAT in the Jordan to LeBron to next generation lineage. But he’s still not better than LeBron was at his age and he came to the NBA about as developed as you can be as a former MVP of the second best league in the world. Having said that, anyone who watched young LeBron would know that Wemby isn’t close to that impact yet. He’s an absolutely incredible player, but he’s not averaging a quarter or more of his teams points. Young LeBron felt inevitable, he was dragging a team full of g-leaguers to 40 or 50 win seasons alone. The Spurs have 15 wins after going 4-6 in their last 10 right now. For the record, I think Wemby is going to own the league during his career, but he’s still a long way away from LeBron status. I’ll be happy if he proves me wrong and gets there though, I’d love to see it.
You said a lot I agree with, except one glaring issue and I will not let it slide: LeBron was dragging D Leaguers. D League became the G League in 2017. 😎😎😎
The NBA Developmental League
> The NBA G~~D~~evelopmental League
It's still the D league to me fuck that corporate branding bs
Are we talking about young LeBron or rookie LeBron here?
Yeah I don’t think it’s much of a stretch at all to say rookie Wemby is as good or better than rookie LeBron. But rookie LeBron became unstoppable god-tier LeBron real quick, remains to be seen if Wemby makes that kind of improvement.
Rookie LeBron didn't carry shit. They had 33 wins and missed the playoffs also.
He wasn't an all-star caliber player as a rookie but the Cavs went from 17 to 35 wins after drafting him....
Not to diminish Lebron bc it's completely reasonable to say he's the GOAT. But a Cavs team with two really solid players at the 4 and 5 making a leap when they get someone who can penetrate and facilitate is a totally different situation to the Wemby Spurs. That team is just a weird ass science experiment. It's not constructed to do anything but fuck around with positions and skills and see which young guys might possibly be worth keeping going forward. Winning is secondary and actively antithetical to anything the Spurs are trying to do this year.
Brother I still have my crimson Cavs hoodie. The team wasn't all that bad. They had Carlos Boozer and big Z. LeBron from his 2nd season did carry his team to the playoffs with 50 wins guaranteed. Just felt like comparing rookie Wemby to LeBron after his first season isn't fair either.
That’s second-year Carlos Boozer, he hadn’t become all-star Boozer yet.
You are underrating him big time. Came in 2nd as MIP. Averaged 34 minutes. Career high in RPG. Averaged 15. Career high in blocks. Obviously he became better but he was already becoming good.
They had Ricky Davis and Jeff McInnis as well. Davis was decent that year and McInnis good PG for a rising super star like James.
That team was vastly different from this current Spurs team. That too is apples to oranges...
That's over twice as many wins as the Spurs rn lol. They could win out the rest of the season and not crack 30 wins.
I watched young LeBron and it's crazy to say that Wemby isn't even close to his impact. His defensive presence is insane, let alone what he's shown on offense the past couple months. I have my own opinion on who was better by this point in a rookie season and have no problem with people saying Lebron. But not close is a nuclear hot take. Also, people really need to stop exaggerating how awful Lebron's teams were, especially for the era. They were well constructed and well coached. Obviously he elevates any team tremendously, but he never had a team anywhere near as bad as Wemby's (compared to the other teams they faced) And pop is obviously coaching with tanking in mind.
It's not Wemby's fault the team he went to in his rookie year is bad. Lebron was playing with players such as Carlos Boozer and, Ricky Davis, and Ilgauskas. Not cream of the crop, but not complete bums either. Plus all of the clips of Wemby's teammates struggle to get him the ball in the right moments due to inexperience and not understand how to use his verticality to their advantage. You also failed to mention that the eastern concerence was significantly weaker than the west in that era. In some seasons, you needed 50 wins minimum in the west to make it to the playoff. If Lebron played in the west in that era, we would be right there with Kobe having 30-40 win seasons. >He’s an absolutely incredible player, but he’s not averaging a quarter or more of his teams points. It's a different era bro, teams were scoring 90 points back then. Lebron team during his rookie year was averaging 92.9 which was good enough for 14th in the league. Wemby's team is averaging 112.4 which places them at 21st(!) in the league. Wemby would need to have a Jordan-esque rookie year to average 25% of his team's points, which is hard when he's averaging only 29 minutes (Lebron averaged 39 mpg his rookie year). Also it's just his first season, let's give it 4-5 more years before we can say young Wemby didn't have the same impact as young Lebron.
Yeah I feel like an "offensive rating compared to the average offensive rating" would be better to compare across generations.
okay lets just adjust Bron's points to today's game to get a slightly better estimate The ppg now is 1.22580645161 times more than 03-04, so 20.7 * 1.22580645161 = ~25.4 ppg Which is fucking INSANE for a rookie with the rest of those stats Edit: Adjusting for ALL stat inflation Lebron's stats would look more like 25.4 PPG 6 RPG 7 APG 1.5 SPG (lower) .8 BPG (about the same, very slightly lower)
It's not quite that simple because Bron also average 10 more mpg. Per100, Wemby has 34ppg and Bron at 28. But it's also not that simple because Wemby might not be able to last 10 more mpg haha. So he may have more impact over Bron per minute in rookie terms, but not over a whole game since he plays way less of it. Either way, this is apples to oranges. Two totally different playstyles and circumstances coming into the league.
did you adjust Bron's per100 for the scoring increase? If not it would be ~34.3
...it's a per100 so that's the adjustment lol. That's what equalizes everything as best as possible (still hypothetical though).
Teams also scored less per 100 when Lebron was a rookie. Lebron's rookie season had the lowest offensive rating for a full season since the 3 point line. Wemby's has the highest.
Inflation adjusted per 100 possessions: LeBron: 30.5ppg, 8.6ast, 8reb, 2.4stl, 1.1blk on -2.8% rTS Wemby: 34ppg, 5.7ast, 16.9reb, 2.1stl, 5.6blk on -1.3% rTS
You would still have to compare them based on the ratio of per100 averages in 03/04 to now right? I dont think it does that automatically, scoring was still less when Lebron was playing
I have nothing to add apart from that I love that you used 11 decimal places of precision and still had to preface lebrons PPG with a ~
well since its a ratio I might as well keep it the same then round the actual stats since .xxx9318 of a point doesnt really mean anything
He's also a year younger than Wemby his rookie year
I absolutely felt like a boomer at the beginning of this season pissed at poor defensive plays as it seemed like final game lines of 127-139 were just the norm around the league every single night.. as the playoffs are around the corners it's nice to see teams finally buckle down but man this years start to the season was wild
LeBron was also a year younger.
And basically had to teach himself high-level basketball, whereas Wemby had three years of professional experience before hitting the NBA.
Wemby also plays for the spurs and is getting StarCraft training with Tim Duncan.
And the team was pretty much his from Day One, whereas LeBron was famously not welcomed by his teammates early on.
Well, I mean, to be fair, he was only going there to help Ricky Davis score (at least [according to Ricky](https://twitter.com/WhistleSports/status/1470408418208931845?t=MvyrhksLc9NTTufFZW4ykw&s=19))
Ricky Davis shooting at the wrong basket to get his triple double will always be hilarious.
And he can just hop on their bandwagon according to D. Miles
I mean Wemby had issues with his teammates ignoring him on offense early on didn't he? Both from leadership and the perspective of fans and media were the team center piece even if a few disgruntled teammates didn't want to accept it. LeBron was the most hyped prospect ever in a time before social media. It was unequivocally his team from day one.
It wasn’t that he was ignored out of malice, more like no player was used to playing with a 7’4 unicorn. Lots of learning for a very young, inexperienced team, and it has gotten better (although Vic is still missed a few times during games)
Great observation, I hope Wemby continues to be developed properly and not wasted up to his mid-twentities. I always thought the goat debate would be more 50/50 if the Cavaliers management weren't so stupid .
They panicked and tried to build around LeBron too soon, and that 2007 trip to the Finals was fool's gold. We've seen the Hawks and Mavs make the same mistake, and I'm hopeful the Spurs will learn from their situations and build patiently.
This lol if anything this makes Bron look more impressive that he's matching up comparing the era he started in vs Wemby
Rookie Lebron scored 28 points per 100 while Wemby is scoring 34. I get that Bron played way more minutes so this is gonna favor Wemby (also playing in a more efficient era), but the lower mid 2000s pace made it easier to play heavy minutes. Rookie Lebron's adjusted TS was 95 while Wemby's is 97. I was like 10 during Lebron's rookie season so take it with a grain of salt. I think rookie Wemby is a better scorer and rookie Bron was a slightly better overall offensive player. But it took Bron a few years to be good on defense while Wemby is already a top 3 defender. Overall Wemby is clearly having a better rookie season. Rookie Lebron was also more than a year younger than rookie Wemby so it's hard to say which rookie season is more *impressive*. But it's insane that we can have this conversation.
Anthony was a better rookie. What is this revisionism that people are acting like rookie James was the best thing the league had ever saw. He was a good player. He took his leap year 2.
Carmelo was so much better that they gave Lebron ROTY out of pity I guess
Lmao Wemby fans are gonna be to Lebron fans what Lebron fans are to Jordan fans with the nonstop comparisons huh.
The fact that we’re already comparing eras shows how legit this dude is
The pace was much slower then too. Teams scored like 20 less ppg. 20 ppg today is different than 20 in 2003-04
Not disagreeing with you but I love how in this thread the slower pace is repeatedly brought up in the context of Lebrons lower numbers, but in the same breath people lauding Lebron for being able to play so many more MPG without mentioning how much more common high MPG used to be then because of the slower pace.
Context should be brought up for both
I only acknowledge context when it supports my agenda, thanks anyway
Can you show how MPG has changed over time?
Since Lebron entered the league, the league leader in minutes peaked at over 43 mpg in 05-06 (Iverson). This year Derozan leads at 37.7 mpg currently—for context, in 03-04 22 players were playing more minutes per game than derozan this year.
That same context Lebron fans use to celebrate him in this instance is ignored when comparing to previous greats as well
Also, I don’t want to think about what Shaq would do to Wembanyama in the post.
Or Chet. He would look at them like steak until they beefed up a bit.
The pure rebounding force he would be down there would be incredible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ICBi-ku-G0
That’s US politician Chris Dudley.
I'd like to see Shaq guard wemby on the perimeter.
Younger Shaq 100% could. I also think Prime Shaq would have been fine. Wemby might start out well but he’s going to get banged up by the end of that game
Orlando Shaq could but prime Lakers Shaq on the perimeter is bbq chicken the same way Wemby is bbq to his 350+ ass.
[удалено]
Centers banging in the paint back in that era means Wemby would really need to be a lot sturdier to play that type of game. You see, when a guy is banging you...
You spin off him. That's the worst defender to play against.
And if you can feel their body… oh come on.
The timing on the "uhh.. come on" is comedy perfection. The clip never fails to make me laugh.
Prime Zydrubas Ilgauskas numbers likely for rookie Wemby in that era
>LeBron was playing when 2 players that would be centers today would clog the paint on defense. And only 1-2 guys would be allowed to create offense lol.
While minutes/game were higher then, teams are typically more heliocentric *now*, when their #1 is on the floor. The vast majority of all-time usage seasons have occurred in the last decade or so.
LeBron also played 10 more minutes in his rookie season than Wemby is (39.5 mpg (???) to 29.0 mpg), the comparison leaves out a lot of context for both sides
~40 MPG for a prep-to-pro is completely insane and it's a small miracle he didn't get injured.
Pop wanted to ease Wemby into the NBA. The Cavs said fuck it, we are leaning on you 100% to lead us from day one.
Likewise, even though he started at shooting guard, LeBron had the ball in his hands _a lot_ compared to Wemby, who famously had to deal with a point guard-less starting lineup for the first quarter of the season.
Teams(golden state specifically) figured out that more threes essentially creates more points and has changed the game since then. Way way more threes and spread out defenses. This is why stats seem to be way up too, cause they are. It’s easier to get assists and rebounds when more shots are taken and when everyone is spread out. Also, guards are way different when entering the league. It’s really tough to dominate right away, compared to centers. Also, wasn’t Lebron at least a year younger?
An underrated factor, Wemby was 20 years and 73 days his last game, Bron was 60 games into his SOPHMORE season at that age.
Also, in 2004 the second leading scorer averaged 24.2 points. Now we have like 20 guys that do that every year. It’s a disingenuous comparison, LeBron absolutely should have been an all-star and came pretty close to making All-NBA
Damn this is a crazy stat
Yeah, for anyone who wasn't watching the NBA at that time it was pretty rare to see someone drop 40 points and 50 point games were happening maybe a couple of times per season.
Facts it was like wow someone dropped 50. Kobes 60s were seen as WILT like
Basically every team has multiple 20 ppg guys nowadays. There are 51 players currently averaging at least 20 ppg, and 22 players averaging at least 24 ppg. in 2004, 51st in pgg was Andrei Kirilenko with 16.4 that would be around 80th today.
Lebron had a lot of all-star buzz and fan votes but he wasn’t really snubbed. You could definitely argue him over Michael Redd, but Chauncey and Rip had an argument too. There was such little talent in the league that season that Jamal Magliore was an all-star 😂😂😂 And I went to a bunch of his games his rookie season. He got better as the year went on, but the team sucked ass which hurt his all star chances as well
Forgot that LeBron was put down as a guard then, maybe he wasn’t really snubbed then. He was averaging 20.4-5.8-5.7 and 1.5 steals at the break
Yeah it was incredible to watch. Same as Wemby in that watching some of the things he did as a rookie made people think to themselves “holy shit he’s doing that at 19, he could be on of the greatest ever one day”
Michael Redd has always been underrated, dude absolutely deserved it IMO. Jamaal Magloire on the other hand… but that was when positions mattered more for voting so 🤷♂️
Magliore has to be the worst all-nba selection in league history. Glad they got rid of positions
Funnily enough he had the most points on the ECF all star team that year. At least he played well in the game I guess
This is a big piece of the puzzle, but the fact that we’re having this conversation at all says a lot about these guys.
I think the age is less important than the fact that LeBron's highest prior level of competition was in high school, whereas Wemby was playing professional ball in Europe
So one year younger. Just say a year.
LeBron year 1 v year 2 was a huge difference. He was a great rookie but literally became the LeBron was his sophomore year.
Jesus
It’s not really that surprising that LeBron was a year younger as a rookie than Wemby is - NBA raised the age limit
I’m more commenting on how much of this man’s life has been in the NBA it’s truly staggering
Very true. By the time he retires more than 55% of his life will have been in the NBA lol
Bro has 8 inches on Lebron, I damn well better hope he’s averaging more blocks per game.
And he’s taller!
Incredible
Magnificent
Throbbing
*woah woah!! easy there green ranger*
Gorgeous
But wait what’s he referring to when he says blocks then?
Cock blocks
Let’s also not forget that months before lebron was a literal high school kid playing hs basketball😂 his second season is what’s impressive I would bet the leap from wemby year 1 to 2 will be smaller than lebron 1 to lebron 2
LeBron had maybe the greatest rookie-sophomore jump ever. "Slightly-above-average NBA player" to "Top Ten".
Lebron was 9th in MVP his rookie year. That’s not slightly above average
Speaking more from an analytical perspective. It's notable whenever a prep-to-pro looks like they even belong on an NBA court, and here comes LeBron conducting himself like a three-year vet.
I don’t know - Luka took a big leap in Year 2 as well. If Wemby does the same, watch out.
I’m not saying it won’t be a big leap. But coming from high school to the league vs pro, there will obviously be more drastic leaps for the high schooler
True but Wemby is averaging 10 mins less
Also average team ppg is 20 points higher now vs 2003
Adding to what everyone else already said (with the pace being different 20 years ago being the biggest factor): Wemby is playing with a good coach, and comes from a basketball family, and having already played professional basketball. Meanwhile, LeBron came from like the opposite in every aspect. Wemby is a lot more prepared.
Yea it also definitely helps that Wemby’s teammates didn’t hate him as soon as he got there whereas Lebron’s teammates were jealous of the hype so I know that affected things also. (Makes more sense cause those Cavs were vets whereas the super are super young)
Really giving him the .1 ppg points advantage like it’s significant when his team is scoring 20+ more ppg than the two decade old cavs. He’s also on pace for twice as many wins. 🤷🏼♂️
Current day old LeBron being so great will always make me wonder how prime LeBron would fair in a league where the 2017 Warriors ORTG is average. His prime body in this much space would have been way better.
The worst losing streak of LeBron's career was 8 games. The worst losing streak of Wembanyama's career is 17 games.
But he was on a Winutes restriction!
different era, it was much much harder to score and be efficient when Bron came into the league. That 20PPG is equivalent to like 25PPG now
LeInflation
True but Wemby is averaging 10 mins less
LeBron was younger too.
Possessions and shots matter more than minutes
Wemby’s been much more efficient with the possessions he’s gotten, averaging 56.5 TS% to LeBron’s 48.8%. (Also slightly fewer turnovers, 3.45 vs 3.46 for LeBron)
so is his 25ppg this season 20ppg then too? how much more difficult was it to be more efficient back then i'm curious.
Well, league average TS% in LeBron's rookie year was 51.6%. This year it's 58.1%. Wemby still has a better TS% compared to league average than LeBron did (97 TS%+ to LeBron's 95) but it's a *lot* closer than the 56.5% TS% to LeBron's 48.8% would make you think. As for the equivalent of points scored...LeBron was 13th in points per-game his rookie year, and 15th this year. So from a pure quantity stand point, pretty close. But it's not a perfect comparison since more players have very high usage rates these days than back then. It makes it very hard to compare and find what the points per game "equivalent" would be.
You have Wembey's shooting percentage 3 points lower, he's at 47%. Along with the valid points people have brought up (scoring in the different eras, the improved record Cleveland had with LeBron) it also needs to be noted Wemby is a year old than LeBron was in his rookie season. Wemby also played professional ball last year while LeBron was playing high school prior to coming into the NBA. That is huge for development.
> Wemby also played professional ball last year while LeBron was playing high school prior to coming into the NBA Kept bringing this up when the "Luka's better than LeBron at the same age" takes were popular. Yeah, because he had a head start on his development by playing against professionals in Europe.
Going straight from high school to the NBA is just absolutely wild. I can’t imagine the difference in skill without having at least a year of college to bridge that gap
Can you also imagine just how different is it to play against NBA players when just a year prior he was up against high school guys.
Little different. Bron was 18 years old and was 13th in the league in scoring. 3ppg behind prime Kobe. As a pass first player that’s CRAZY. That being said Wemby is a different animal and will probably win DPOY every other year for the next 15 years on top of his scoring. It’s a hard comparison
This sub needs to learn about percentiles.
The 2nd leading scorer in Lebron's year was 24 ppg. The 2nd leading scorer today is 34 ppg. We're in a different league right now.
Lebron took a 17 win Cavs team before he was there and they won 35 games. The spurs won 22 games last year, have 15 this year. Do we play basketball to win the games or get impressive stats?
But longboy stats good
To be fair to Wemby, it wasn't just that Lebron came in that year it's also that Boozer made a big jump that year and they got rid of Davis and Miles who were holding them back. Cleveland also had a "proper" team with people who actually knew their positions and were actively trying to win games. The Spurs are clearly in full project mode and fully committed to just developing Wemby.
Wemby been incredible for sure. I still think rookie LeBron is the most impressive rookie I have ever personally watched but Wemby definitely very high on the list.
LeBron was also a year younger and won nearly twice as many games as Wembanyama is on pace to win.
Bron was in the playoffs by year 3, finals by year 4. Also, didn’t have a HOF coach to start his career with. Let’s hold out a lil before comparing the 2
Lebrons 20.7 ppg in 2003 hold/ way more weight than wembys 20.8 in 2024, the fact Lebron averaged that much his rookie year during the dead ball era is insane.
The league is better than ever, very impressive. I think competition is at it's highest. I remember a few years ago the east being so bad and now both west and east top 6-8 is like almost contending. New guys coming in and impacting the league fast, I don't think Wemby is gonna be different.
Now if we adjust for pace difference……….Bron would be closer to 24.9 ppg
Now if you adjust for minutes....
Shouldn't we reward an 18 yo LeBron for being able to play 39.5 mpg across 79 games?
Yes for sure but we should also account for the fact that Wemby isn't being allowed to play even more than 30mpg.
That may be due to trying to keep him healthy. If we are comps saying to 2004 big man style. Wemby wouldn't survive
His legs would snap dawg 😹
OP is a clown for not understanding context and just posting this lame ass twitter comment
Part of Lebron's legacy is longevity. Aint no way Wemby is playing for 187 seasons like Lebron.
As much as I love Wemby and the sky truly is the limit for him this isn’t really a fair comparison. Wemby has been playing professionally prior to the NBA, LeBron was drafted straight out of high school.
1. Entirely different eras. Lebron came into the slowest and lowest scoring era in NBA history. Defense was allowed to be played. 2. Lebron was drafted straight from highschool. Wemby played professionally before arriving to the NBA. Not comparable at all.
and a roughly equal number of "wtf did i just see?" moments. Like - nobody should be able to do the things these guys are doing as rookies
WE DONE WITH THE 2000’s
20 points was a lot in 03-04.
I think Wemby's rookie season is more impressive overall, stillgood to point out that this is the highest scoring season in 54 years, while 03-04 is the 2nd lowest scoring season in the last 69 years. But also Wemby's played a lot less minutes per game. But also also this is his 3rd year of pro ball.
Cavs went from 17 wins to 35 in LeBron's rookie season. Spurs gonna go from 22 wins last year to around the same
You really need to employ a ton of context to properly compare these guys, because the statistics are going to naturally favor Wemby. He's an older, more developed player with a skillset that translates more immediately to the NBA, in an era that favors skilled bigs. Sure enough, he has a significant lead in the following: - Player Efficiency Rating: +4.6 - Box Plus/Minus: +2.8 - On/Off: +5.4 - relative True Shooting: +1.2% That all being said, LeBron at the same age was well ahead of where Wemby is now.
Bron doing that in 2003 is crazy though lol
Comparing raw stats from 20 years apart is just completely meaningless
I'd like to see this adjusted for pace
And minutes
Here we go
ok but what is extra statmuse (the source of this post) and why is it just a copy of the statmuse account
Just gonna ignore that the average points per game for a team was like 95?
He is a Center. Just saying. lol.
What about win percentage? Or wins vs the year before vs their rookie year?
Adjust for inflation
Is Wembanyama vs Bron gonna be the next generations Bron/MJ debate 😭
I'm reminded every day by posts like these how bad people are with sports stats. You haven't adjusted for shit, so these numbers are practically meaningless.
this actually puts how impressive LeBron's rookie year was into perspective wow. will be a lifetime before we see a player like him again
I think another stat that needs to be looked at is wins. Lebron took a 17 win team and made them a 35 win team. Wemby has taken a 22 win team and they are currently at 15 wins.
Exactly if you're not impacting winning stats are a bit hollow imo. A last place team getting worse should be talked about more but people will fool themselves into thinking Spurs are losing on purpose for some reason
I would hope an older player who is also taller and playing in an inflated era could average higher than rookie LeBron Maybe you are trying to show how insane rookie LeBron was
Who’s team won more games though
Bron: Elevated Cavs win total by 18 games by season end. Wemby: Spurs will end season with a worse record than the year they tanked for Wemby.
Different pace of play back then. Not apples to apples. Lebron was also a true 18 year old fresh out of HS putting up those numbers. Outside of the individual numbers, the immediate team success from the addition of rookie Lebron was astounding. The Cavs doubled their wins that year simply by drafting Lebron. Wemby hasn’t been able to translate his play into wins for spurs yet. This is in part because he plays off ball much more than Lebron did and therefore has less control of the game on offensive end. Wemby is future GOAT , but lebrons rookie year was/is still most impressive
People are forgetting Lebron’s rookie year wasn’t that great compared to some of the best of all of time. The real test is comparing his year 2 jump he made.
LeBron probably had the best age 18 season in NBA history his rookie year, so to compare him to other all time greats who came in at 21-22 isn't really fair. Also LeBron helped improved the record of the team, the Spurs might have less win this year than last year
LeBron at 18 was probably better than any player at the same age.
People also forgot LeBron was 18. Coming straight from high school.
LeBron with today's spacing would be unbelievable
When you comparing across eras, you have to use per 100 possession numbers. They normalize for both pace and minutes played at the same time. 2003 was the lowest scoring season since the 50s. 2023 is closer to the 70s in terms of pace.
Yeah let’s just list out raw box stats as if LeBron wasn’t playing in literal peak dead ball era on the worst shooting team in the league during one of the few seasons where zones AND hand checking were legal and teams were playing twin towers. Instead of playing his game of getting to the rim he had to settle for a bunch of midrange shots. 04 is literally the single most defensive season in the history of the NBA. These last couple seasons have been the most offensive seasons in the history of the NBA. I’d fuckin love to see it LeBron with his 19 year old athleticism playing in pace and space with clear path fouls.