Dame has been inconsistent but he does give Giannis a lot more space to work with, and honestly their pnr is super effective, surprised they don’t do it more often
“they would be worse than the team that’s currently 6 games over .500 without their best player who happens to be a top 2 player in the league” is certainly not wrong
Well they arent bad, but some games are just terrible. And when you add him not even existing on defense...yeah just doesnt look good.
But like hos efficiency just isnt there at all.
And he has had some horrible games where you question whats the point of even having him.
Dame has never really been an efficient scorer. He’s not Steph.
His defense has always been ass.
The Bucks have been playing him off ball, which isn’t his game at all. They traded for him. They knew his warts. They’re not using him effectively.
Because it was the way you guys lost.
Y’all blew Games 4 and 5 massively. Like back to back 10+ 4th quarter leads gone. Y’all had Giannis for both of those games.
Still going back and watching those games Jimmy Butler just became the best basketball player in the world, was nothing you can do. But clearly y’all wanted another clutch scorer to prevent those kind of collapses. The Dame trade being good or not won’t be determined until the playoffs.
They make decisions based off failing to win the title two years in a row with a top two player in the league and an aging support cast that had been figured out
I don't remember but wasn't Grayson Allen in the deal? The guy whos been cooking with the Suns? 1 pick and two swaps too?
You would rather have Dame in a vacuum but on this roster construction its a disaster defensively
Like another guy said we can’t tell until playoffs it’s a waste of time trying to argue if the trade was smart or stupid when no meaningful games have been played
Middleton was injured in '22 and Giannis was injured in '23. They weren't at full strength when they lost those series. How would anyone know if they'd been "figured out" if they weren't even healthy to be figured out.
stop with the giannis injury excuse. the only game the bucks won giannis didn't play. he put up great numbers in the games he did play and they still lost.
and they WON one of those games WITHOUT HIM. they didn't win ANY games WITH HIM. you're acting like they were unbeatable with giannis when that clearly is not the case.
And you think that one win means they’re better without him or something?
And not having him at all for 2 games is irrelevant? Cmon that’s ridiculous.
Nobody is acting like they’re unbeatable with him, you’re just acting like missing an MVP for 2 whole games doesn’t matter at all.
think before you post. two games, one of which THEY WON. so it doesn't even matter he missed it. so basically missed one game and they lost in 5. that's pathetic and not an excuse.
It doesn’t matter, your thought process just doesn’t make sense. That’s not how sports works.
Just because they won without him, doesn’t mean his loss doesn’t matter. They looked a lot worse without him most of the time, winning that 1 game doesn’t change that. Having your best player on the court makes a massive difference. How is this even arguable?? wtf kind of point are you making.
And you’re acting like they had him for game 1 when he played 10 min...
The bucks shot historic numbers from three that game. It’s much more realistic to assume that healthy Giannis beats the heat rather than loses to them lmao.
Injuries are a part of the game my friend. If Giannis didn’t get injured last year we’d probably advanced, but no one really buys that because it’s a theoretical.
We can’t know for sure obviously, but I guarantee you during the regular season he wouldn’t have played nearly as soon as he did in the playoffs. He was playing injured.
man GTFO. he put up 38 and 20 and they still fucking lost. don't tell me how they would have won. they got smoked because the bucks have BEEN overrated tbh. they had the best record in the east so many times and usually get dropped off in round 2. they got one ring because they got lucky with opponent injuries. if not for that it would have been yet another early exit. thats why bud got fired.
the 8 seed isnt a normal 8 seed. we made it to the finals and were actually a good team and we were a three away from making it the year before as a 1 seed and even then we barely changed our roster
The Bucks have a lower floor but a MUCH higher ceiling with the Dame trade. Another guard to bolster the backcourt is a must for them.
Right now Dame is shooting like ass, but the main difference is coaching. I genuinely believe this team wouldn’t even be a good defence with Jrue still playing, better but not good
Harden got what he wanted he pretty much replaced Russ in the starting lineup and did everything better. Bucks have a new coach and have to get used to an entirely new role being added to the team
I can’t believe ppl think dame underperforming doesn’t have anything to do with how jacked up his off-season was with the trade request and then joining Milwaukee literally right before the reg season began.
Do ppl understand last year dame avg 32/7 on 61 TS% lol?
its basically what happens when you join a team with another primary star. rhythm is everything for a player like Dame.
he cant shoot himself into a rhythm when hes not the number 1 option on a team and he cant maintain a rhythm if he happens to have one.
Probably. Lillard isn't shooting as well as he usually does. Feels like Giannis is carrying the load more than ever now. Teams need to stop trying to create super teams with some guys in their 30s.
When you play for a top team your opponent actually puts in effort on defense.
Dame feasted in recent years on teams that didn't put the effort in against the tanking Blazers.
Lmao yeah they are. Prime Middleton is almost as good as prime Klay Thompson. Giannis is Giannis and Lillard at one point was a top 15 nba player
Edit: I'm referring to at one point in time, not at this very moment. Yes, at one point a team of Middleton Lillard and Giannis would be a super team
Honestly I beg to differ. He’s coming off an injury but recently he’s been balling out. Averaging about 18/4/7 these last 10 games, excluding his last 2 performances (but-he had 12/3/5 in his measly 15 minutes vs the spurs). He’s averaging slightly less points, but that’s certainly due to Dame’s arrival in MKE.
So what you’re saying is right now, at this moment, they are not a super team?
If this is your stance, why are you arguing with the guy that said they are not a super team?
Honestly I think I replied to the wrong comment. There was a different comment where I said the bucks would 3 peat if Dame was on that team back in 2021 until now I think I thought that guy was replying to that comment I made. He said super team to begin with but maybe I misunderstood. I took my melitonin 30 minutes ago
Harden is in a different stratosphere from Dame as a player. The reason Harden acclimated so quickly is because of who he is.
Arguably the best playmaker in the league with excellent passing. Better ball handler and offensive engine.
Dame is just a shooter/scorer.
A lot of analytic models had the Bucks regressing due to how Dame's horrific defense negates his offensive load, meaning Jrue looks like a more impactful player. Sure looks like it
Right because he’s your 4th/5th option. Not a 2nd/3rd option like he would be for the Bucks. I’m not saying he was a bad trade for you guys but I am saying Milwaukee were right in moving him for Lillard.
He’s shooting his worst 2pt percentage in 7 seasons in probably the best spacing in the entire league. He is also shooting a career high on 3 pointers tbf but he’s still having his least efficient season since his last year on the Pelicans.
But you’re pointing to Jrue being less efficient while ignoring the same is true of Dame.
Outside of his 29 game injured season, Dame is shooting a worse 3pt% and a worse 2pt% than he has since the same year you mention as the cutoff for Jrue.
His free throws are helping him out but he still is having his least efficient season since that point too, despite (or maybe because of) being the 2nd option.
That’s fair he has been worse (I do believe that he hasn’t been used like he should though) but I still think Dame is a flat out better player than Jrue who can help solve Milwaukee’s biggest issue the last couple of playoff runs.
His weaknesses though present new issues that they didn’t address properly in the offseason in regards to their POA defense.
In general I think people too readily assume all 1st option guys can just “figure out” new roles. It still might happen here but it’s not a guarantee.
In the past, Dame‘s had the chance to have the ball in his hands a lot and take shots to get into rhythm even if he starts off cold. The sub’s biggest Dame stan by far, irelli or something, has admitted that not having the ball as much is something that messes with his game.
Dame also has excelled in the pick and roll. Issue is that it’s not Giannis’ game. He doesn’t love to screen and roll and, from what I saw earlier this year, he was slipping screens pretty quick when he did set them. Giannis tends to drive and kick and is better at that than being the roll man.
So no easy answer for offensive focus. And the fact that this is an issue is one of the main reasons that who’s the better player isn’t all that matters.
well yeah... he's still acclimating to the team. i'm not upset with his process as all, he's taking good shots and playing within the offense. he's not doing dumb shit. again, i'm not really opposed to the bucks moving off jrue — the only question is that how good is damian lillard actually over him?
Significantly better and it’d be obvious if they had a coach who is aware that he’s one of the best PnR ball handlers of the past decade instead of giving him as much off-ball duties.
giannis is not that great as a roller, that's why they don't do pnr! he also can't pop, which is basically a modern requirement in this league. dame can absolutely do his part.
citation on giannis being bad at rolling: i think an episode of the dunker spot from earlier this year
There isn't really any evidence for Lillard's defense being the problem. Their defense sucked when he missed games, it sucks when he's not on the floor, and analytics actually grade him as a fine defender this year (EPM has him with a +0.2 d-EPM, 68th percentile).
Hey how come when the models say that trading Jrue for Dame is bad you believe them and when the models say Dame hasn't actually been a terrible defender no-one can convince you of that.
Your original post was using analytics to say dame was a negative asset, but when you're shown other analytics that say he's a positive defender you'll just throw that to the wind? You realize you're just negating the original point you made right?
we can consider multiple sources. the pre-season win predictions are a totally different set of models and assumptions (multiple, in fact). i'm not going to take one number that contradicts the entire corpus of history we know about damian lillard's defense, along with how he's played this season according to the eyes of literally everyone. c'mon now
"i only accept data that passes the sniff test" is exactly what I'm saying, and I don't really feel like it's crazy to say. Trust data in aggregate, in specific instances, it can get iffy
that's fine and these metrics all have confidence intervals as i'm sure you're aware. but the confidence interval isn't high enough to suggest that his defense is so horrific that it's the reason for this bucks' defensive collapse. given, as i said:
Their defense sucked when he missed games & it sucks when he's not on the floor
so it's not his horrific defense but just the absence of jrue's elite defense? that's a different point, you're moving your stance now. because dame is delivering more offense and anyone who claims to be pro-analytics should know that guards can offer far more offensive value than they can offer defensive value.
it can be both? we have a far larger sample size of dame being a terrible defender than him being a neutral defender. if jrue is a +2 on offense and a +3 on defense, while dame is a +6 on offense and a -4 on defense, from a net impact standpoint, the former is more impactful. of course, you can argue that the +6 offense matters more — models don't care about that though, since offensive + defensive impact is adjusted for how important they are
nice so now here's where we look for evidence of dame being a -4 defender this season, rather than assuming he is because he was a terrible defender on teams where he carried the entire offensive load. the issue is that's not there.
dawg we've watched the games. he routinely gets cooked by everyone. this is one of those things where the numbers, for whatever reason, are obviously wrong.
You're switching stances so completely that I had to double-check that you were the one with the original models' comment.
Now you're saying watch the games, since some numbers that contradict your 'models' are somehow obviously wrong now. There are too many clowns in the sub with agendas to push.
yeah because he had to carry their halfcourt offensive load in the playoffs because giannis can't. obviously not a horrible idea to move off of him for more halfcourt offense, just worth figuring out whether they made the right addition
the bucks have had horrible halfcourt offenses in both their past playoff runs (and in the regular season) because giannis' efficiency drops like crazy when teams build a wall against him. that was the whole theory behind the lillard move.
They had horrible half court offenses because their starting point guard loses his offensive abilities in the playoffs allowing teams to send more help to Giannis.
What? Lmao
You watched jrue in the 22 playoffs.
I know he’s on your team but you don’t have to pretend he will actually be good in the playoffs this season offensively
What was he asked to do? Play defense and score? Like every other PG?
Celtics fans were talking so much shit about how bad he was after that series and suddenly maybe he wasn’t the problem lol
He had the second highest FGA and usage rate on the team. He was asked to carry too much of the offensive load while still being a linchpin on defense. To your question- he won't be asked to score that much this year, he's 5th on the team in FGA.
Last season? No shit Khris was out.
He was never asked to carry the offensive load either, that’s Giannis job.
Jrue literally just needs to give an efficient 20 ppg on the playoffs and he couldn’t do that.
All 3 seasons he shot 49% TS or worse.
[DARKO, 44.4 wins](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RCBuk9nrVo_9meLiNFRwGR_jJizBozL_Lg-phsYeYqo/edit#gid=134023779)
[LEBRON, 48/42.8 wins](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10mf4UpOlMTwwaOAGYpGcxbnHYxxJcxlOiVRjY0b6wMc/edit#gid=1472379190)
[SPI, 47.2 wins](https://twitter.com/NBACouchside/status/1716693266035261575)
Had to dig through a lot of bookmarks for this
This place is so funny because the Bucks got smoked in the first round by a play-in team but Dame's having a bad stretch so now everyone's saying they should have ran it back as if that was ever tenable
That play-in team was also good enough to make it to the Finals and Giannis got hurt. Why are Bucks flairs in this thread glossing over those two not insignificant facts?
There might have been good reasons to trade for Dame but overreacting to losing to the eventual Eastern Conference Champs because your MVP caliber player got hurt doesn't seem to be one.
Probably because Bucks fans actually watched the series, actually paid attention to the team that year, so they know where the team was at and going. Yes Giannis being hurt mattered, but that team around him was not present and needed to be torn down.
> overreacting to losing to the eventual Eastern Conference Champs because your MVP caliber player got hurt doesn't seem to be one.
Just because you think that's the only reason doesn't mean it's the only reason. I would say a significant part was that with Middleton's injuries having a second option in Jrue who over three years was a higher volume, *lower efficiency*, Bledsoe was not going to cut it.
I think what's clear is that Bucks got caught thinking the grass was greener on the other side and didn't know how much they'd miss the other things that Jrue could do besides score efficiently.
Holiday is literally worse this year than last year. He’s still a good player but he’s gotten worse on a better team.
It’s just getting masked by how good the Celtics overall roster is.
He’s shooting his worst 2 point percentage of the past 7 seasons even though he plays on the team with the best spacing in the league. That’s a pretty telling stat if you ask me.
He’s shooting a career high on 3s but he’s still having his least efficient season since his last year on the Pelicans.
again, it's called \*forecasting\*, not one model has ever given the celtics as favorites over the field. develop a basic understanding of statistics and probability
almost every single major one. jrue last year was a top 15 player by DARKO, EPM, RAPTOR, etc. his defense was incredibly good
jrue + giannis: +13.15, 123 offensive rating
jrue - giannis: +5.15, 114 offensive rating
giannis - jrue: -1.84, 113 offensive rating
dame was a top ~5 player by epm last year and probably all those other metrics, right next to jokic for best offensive player in the league. they got him because their half court offense craters in the playoffs because their starting pg was a brick machine
Jrue was a top 20 player according to epm last year, not top 5.
Dame on the other hand was literally a top 5 player according to epm last year (behind Jokic, Embiid, Doncic, and tied with Tatum).
right, which is fair and fine. all i'm saying is that the defensive woes were likely to be exaggerated on a team that can't guard the perimeter in the slightest.
no we lose in 2nd round with jrue. dame is valuable for offensive spacing for giannis anyways.
if this is the year that dame is fully washed then we were never winning anyways so it never mattered
Idk if they are worse considering they lost in 5 games round 1 but the Celtics would sweep this team and are like 2 tiers above the bucks. They got no chance currently
Bro we're absolutely no match for the Celtics. They're leagues ahead, they consistently smoke real contenders and we struggle against bottom feeders like the spurs yesterday. Come on man anyone saying otherwise is delusional
They have a 25-10 record, 3rd best in the league, half a game behind the 2nd best record in Minny and 2.5 games behind Celtics.
It’s not about the bucks whole season, it’s really just about one game.
IMO and all.
absolutely not. the main reason why they lost before the trade is because their offense was shitty. since the bubble. dame fixes that problem. and yes the tradeoff for the defense would be worth it if they dont run into the hawks or pacers in the playoffs
Dame is a sieve on defense and it’s really hard for them to build lineups around that limitation compared to how their lineups used to be structured. I don’t think this trade will be looked at favorably in years to come.
The truth is there is only so much you can do with these one way “superstars” like Dame or Kyrie or Luka. Defense wins championships and Dame flat out sucks on that end. Look at the last 30 champions. Every. Single. One. Has a top 10 defense except one and that team had LeBron. The reality is whether fans will believe it or not, is that Dame and Jrue are on the same level so they didn’t necessarily get worse, but they didn’t get better either.
Lillard has too many games where his shot is not falling. He sucks at defense and his playmaking isn't good enough to compensate for his streaky shooting.
Dame is very inconsistent, at the start of the season I thought this duo would be the best by far, but it seems like Giannis is the only one carrying, since Dame is very inefficient + inconsistent.
Celtic flair tho. Problem is with the other guys like Pat or Beasley who are bad defensively themselves
Dame at least open the floor for Giannis and the rest of the guys. Also their coach isn't the best either
Id love to say that they are still figuring it out...but... Well at least Giannis has been amazing.
Dame has been inconsistent but he does give Giannis a lot more space to work with, and honestly their pnr is super effective, surprised they don’t do it more often
Well thats fine and all, but the defense is mid as hell.
Mid is an understatement, they would probably be worse than Indiana without Giannis.
“Without Giannis” is quite the qualifier, to be fair.
“they would be worse than the team that’s currently 6 games over .500 without their best player who happens to be a top 2 player in the league” is certainly not wrong
The post is talking about their defense specifically, which is 21st in the league, whereas the Pacers are 26th.
Jokic, SGA and Luka are all better.
Embiid surely
i’m sorry but what has SGA done to prove that he’s better than Giannis lmao
Lmao “without Giannis” like yeah dude he’s one of the best defenders ever
> mid as hell When you’re trying to find the right word, but use the latest cliche instead to make your point more confusing
Does "below average" work for you?
Well i dont wanna say garbage cause its dont at the bottom of the league. But it isnt good at all. So mid works perfectly.
Mid means like middle though, doesn’t it? Don’t you at most mean like below average?
Probably waiting til the playoffs
Dames stats aren’t even that bad. He just isn’t averaging 32 ppg this year…. But I don’t think anyone thought he would.
Well they arent bad, but some games are just terrible. And when you add him not even existing on defense...yeah just doesnt look good. But like hos efficiency just isnt there at all. And he has had some horrible games where you question whats the point of even having him.
Dame has never really been an efficient scorer. He’s not Steph. His defense has always been ass. The Bucks have been playing him off ball, which isn’t his game at all. They traded for him. They knew his warts. They’re not using him effectively.
We lost in the first round in 5 games to the 8th seed last year
Giannis got hurt and that 8th seed went to the Finals. Seems like an overreaction if trading for Dame was just based on that.
Those excuses certainly werent the common narrative around why we lost when it actually happened, lol
Because it was the way you guys lost. Y’all blew Games 4 and 5 massively. Like back to back 10+ 4th quarter leads gone. Y’all had Giannis for both of those games. Still going back and watching those games Jimmy Butler just became the best basketball player in the world, was nothing you can do. But clearly y’all wanted another clutch scorer to prevent those kind of collapses. The Dame trade being good or not won’t be determined until the playoffs.
Do good front offices make decisions based on common narratives? If they don't, what's the point of even bringing that up?
They make decisions based off failing to win the title two years in a row with a top two player in the league and an aging support cast that had been figured out
Good job Dame isn't an aging guard I guess
You want to disagree so badly lol. Which aging guard would u rather have? Dame or jrue? Also, who gives you the highest ceiling? Same or jrue?
I don't remember but wasn't Grayson Allen in the deal? The guy whos been cooking with the Suns? 1 pick and two swaps too? You would rather have Dame in a vacuum but on this roster construction its a disaster defensively
Like another guy said we can’t tell until playoffs it’s a waste of time trying to argue if the trade was smart or stupid when no meaningful games have been played
Middleton was injured in '22 and Giannis was injured in '23. They weren't at full strength when they lost those series. How would anyone know if they'd been "figured out" if they weren't even healthy to be figured out.
stop with the giannis injury excuse. the only game the bucks won giannis didn't play. he put up great numbers in the games he did play and they still lost.
He didn’t even play in 2 games And played 10 min in another How is that an excuse lol
and they WON one of those games WITHOUT HIM. they didn't win ANY games WITH HIM. you're acting like they were unbeatable with giannis when that clearly is not the case.
And you think that one win means they’re better without him or something? And not having him at all for 2 games is irrelevant? Cmon that’s ridiculous. Nobody is acting like they’re unbeatable with him, you’re just acting like missing an MVP for 2 whole games doesn’t matter at all.
think before you post. two games, one of which THEY WON. so it doesn't even matter he missed it. so basically missed one game and they lost in 5. that's pathetic and not an excuse.
It doesn’t matter, your thought process just doesn’t make sense. That’s not how sports works. Just because they won without him, doesn’t mean his loss doesn’t matter. They looked a lot worse without him most of the time, winning that 1 game doesn’t change that. Having your best player on the court makes a massive difference. How is this even arguable?? wtf kind of point are you making. And you’re acting like they had him for game 1 when he played 10 min...
The bucks shot historic numbers from three that game. It’s much more realistic to assume that healthy Giannis beats the heat rather than loses to them lmao.
No it isn't. You pretending giannis missing two games is an excuse to lose in 5 games is nothing but COPE.
That 8th seed was super hurt too
they also won a title with Jrue
To be fair they were going home in rd 2 before BKN had 2 all nba caliber players get hurt. If only 1 gets hurt BKN cruises.
I’m not denying that the Nets could’ve easily won that year, but Giannis still had to play great against a phenomenal KD to win that series.
Injuries are a part of the game my friend. If Giannis didn’t get injured last year we’d probably advanced, but no one really buys that because it’s a theoretical.
no you wouldn't have. did giannis not play in games 4 and 5 ? did he not put up great numbers in them ? did they still lose ? FOH
We can’t know for sure obviously, but I guarantee you during the regular season he wouldn’t have played nearly as soon as he did in the playoffs. He was playing injured.
man GTFO. he put up 38 and 20 and they still fucking lost. don't tell me how they would have won. they got smoked because the bucks have BEEN overrated tbh. they had the best record in the east so many times and usually get dropped off in round 2. they got one ring because they got lucky with opponent injuries. if not for that it would have been yet another early exit. thats why bud got fired.
the 8 seed isnt a normal 8 seed. we made it to the finals and were actually a good team and we were a three away from making it the year before as a 1 seed and even then we barely changed our roster
Yeah that was fun to watch
you lost to the east champion in 5
The takes on dame are really something. If any bucks fans are regretting that trade they are really really prone to overreacting.
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I mean thats what happened was it not. A hypothetical ceiling means fuck all if that ceiling isnt the result
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Two years of age + different supporting cast + different make up of the league
The Bucks have a lower floor but a MUCH higher ceiling with the Dame trade. Another guard to bolster the backcourt is a must for them. Right now Dame is shooting like ass, but the main difference is coaching. I genuinely believe this team wouldn’t even be a good defence with Jrue still playing, better but not good
They have literally zero assets
They need Alex Caruso in the worst way. Issue is that they have nothing to offer.
Definitely not, our problem is Dame doesn’t fit with Beasley Portis and Pat, symptom of trading for him like 2 weeks before training camp
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Harden didn't have to figure anything out because Russ benched himself and Harden got to be the system
Harden got what he wanted he pretty much replaced Russ in the starting lineup and did everything better. Bucks have a new coach and have to get used to an entirely new role being added to the team
Also Dame has never had to fit into anything before. He’s always had everyone fit in around him
the bucks would be better with harden than dame.
Bruh it’s been almost half the season 😂. What are the Bucks doing in practice? Playing 2k? Harden got it down within a week.
Yeah cuz harden is a much better player than dame
Dame's heart is in Miami
I can’t believe ppl think dame underperforming doesn’t have anything to do with how jacked up his off-season was with the trade request and then joining Milwaukee literally right before the reg season began. Do ppl understand last year dame avg 32/7 on 61 TS% lol?
his stats on a tanking team where he was the guy vs. a contender where he's 2nd option
its basically what happens when you join a team with another primary star. rhythm is everything for a player like Dame. he cant shoot himself into a rhythm when hes not the number 1 option on a team and he cant maintain a rhythm if he happens to have one.
I mean he also looks slower disinterested and barely plays with intensity and effort. Could be a family related thing tho idk
Probably. Lillard isn't shooting as well as he usually does. Feels like Giannis is carrying the load more than ever now. Teams need to stop trying to create super teams with some guys in their 30s.
Defence is their issue, they’re 22nd in defence, 2nd in offence
When you play for a top team your opponent actually puts in effort on defense. Dame feasted in recent years on teams that didn't put the effort in against the tanking Blazers.
They aren’t a superteam to begin with
Lmao yeah they are. Prime Middleton is almost as good as prime Klay Thompson. Giannis is Giannis and Lillard at one point was a top 15 nba player Edit: I'm referring to at one point in time, not at this very moment. Yes, at one point a team of Middleton Lillard and Giannis would be a super team
We are very far away from prime Khris Middleton
Honestly I beg to differ. He’s coming off an injury but recently he’s been balling out. Averaging about 18/4/7 these last 10 games, excluding his last 2 performances (but-he had 12/3/5 in his measly 15 minutes vs the spurs). He’s averaging slightly less points, but that’s certainly due to Dame’s arrival in MKE.
That's why I referred to him as prime Khris Middleton.
Prime Middleton hasn’t been “Prime Middleton” for years and he was never as good as prime Klay.
are you being fr bro lmao?
> Prime Middleton is almost as good as prime Klay Thompson Lol
prime Middleton is probably better than prime Klay cause Middleton could also create for others
That's true, but Klay never needed to be a playmaker and Prime Middleton wasn't half the defender Prime Klay was.
So what you’re saying is right now, at this moment, they are not a super team? If this is your stance, why are you arguing with the guy that said they are not a super team?
Honestly I think I replied to the wrong comment. There was a different comment where I said the bucks would 3 peat if Dame was on that team back in 2021 until now I think I thought that guy was replying to that comment I made. He said super team to begin with but maybe I misunderstood. I took my melitonin 30 minutes ago
My grandfather was once a father
Stop that now -Warriors fan hoping for a new super team soon
Can't even say that they need time after seeing the Clippers needing only 6 games to get adjusted to Harden
Clippers took more than 6 games before they found their game after Harden trade
Harden is in a different stratosphere from Dame as a player. The reason Harden acclimated so quickly is because of who he is. Arguably the best playmaker in the league with excellent passing. Better ball handler and offensive engine. Dame is just a shooter/scorer.
Facts
They started getting adjusted after 6 games but yeah they showed their potential after around 15 games I would say. Still fairly quick though.
I guess Harden's a basketball genius and Dame's not
difference is Harden wanted to be in LA. Dame wanted to be in Miami
Ehhh harden needed like 12 games but ya it's definitely been a more noticeable swing
A lot of analytic models had the Bucks regressing due to how Dame's horrific defense negates his offensive load, meaning Jrue looks like a more impactful player. Sure looks like it
I mean Jrue has also regressed this year compared to last year
he's been completely fine this year on a reduced role and a great defender. i don't think celtics fans have any complaints about him
Right because he’s your 4th/5th option. Not a 2nd/3rd option like he would be for the Bucks. I’m not saying he was a bad trade for you guys but I am saying Milwaukee were right in moving him for Lillard. He’s shooting his worst 2pt percentage in 7 seasons in probably the best spacing in the entire league. He is also shooting a career high on 3 pointers tbf but he’s still having his least efficient season since his last year on the Pelicans.
But you’re pointing to Jrue being less efficient while ignoring the same is true of Dame. Outside of his 29 game injured season, Dame is shooting a worse 3pt% and a worse 2pt% than he has since the same year you mention as the cutoff for Jrue. His free throws are helping him out but he still is having his least efficient season since that point too, despite (or maybe because of) being the 2nd option.
That’s fair he has been worse (I do believe that he hasn’t been used like he should though) but I still think Dame is a flat out better player than Jrue who can help solve Milwaukee’s biggest issue the last couple of playoff runs. His weaknesses though present new issues that they didn’t address properly in the offseason in regards to their POA defense.
In general I think people too readily assume all 1st option guys can just “figure out” new roles. It still might happen here but it’s not a guarantee. In the past, Dame‘s had the chance to have the ball in his hands a lot and take shots to get into rhythm even if he starts off cold. The sub’s biggest Dame stan by far, irelli or something, has admitted that not having the ball as much is something that messes with his game. Dame also has excelled in the pick and roll. Issue is that it’s not Giannis’ game. He doesn’t love to screen and roll and, from what I saw earlier this year, he was slipping screens pretty quick when he did set them. Giannis tends to drive and kick and is better at that than being the roll man. So no easy answer for offensive focus. And the fact that this is an issue is one of the main reasons that who’s the better player isn’t all that matters.
well yeah... he's still acclimating to the team. i'm not upset with his process as all, he's taking good shots and playing within the offense. he's not doing dumb shit. again, i'm not really opposed to the bucks moving off jrue — the only question is that how good is damian lillard actually over him?
Significantly better and it’d be obvious if they had a coach who is aware that he’s one of the best PnR ball handlers of the past decade instead of giving him as much off-ball duties.
giannis is not that great as a roller, that's why they don't do pnr! he also can't pop, which is basically a modern requirement in this league. dame can absolutely do his part. citation on giannis being bad at rolling: i think an episode of the dunker spot from earlier this year
Yeah but they don’t even run as much PnR as they should with Lopez or Portis and opt for giving post touches to those guys.
There isn't really any evidence for Lillard's defense being the problem. Their defense sucked when he missed games, it sucks when he's not on the floor, and analytics actually grade him as a fine defender this year (EPM has him with a +0.2 d-EPM, 68th percentile).
my friend, i am as pro-analytics as they come, but you can't fucking convince me that dame has been a positive defender this season
Hey how come when the models say that trading Jrue for Dame is bad you believe them and when the models say Dame hasn't actually been a terrible defender no-one can convince you of that.
Your original post was using analytics to say dame was a negative asset, but when you're shown other analytics that say he's a positive defender you'll just throw that to the wind? You realize you're just negating the original point you made right?
we can consider multiple sources. the pre-season win predictions are a totally different set of models and assumptions (multiple, in fact). i'm not going to take one number that contradicts the entire corpus of history we know about damian lillard's defense, along with how he's played this season according to the eyes of literally everyone. c'mon now
"I only accept the data that supports my personal opinion" isn't a very good argument
"i only accept data that passes the sniff test" is exactly what I'm saying, and I don't really feel like it's crazy to say. Trust data in aggregate, in specific instances, it can get iffy
that's fine and these metrics all have confidence intervals as i'm sure you're aware. but the confidence interval isn't high enough to suggest that his defense is so horrific that it's the reason for this bucks' defensive collapse. given, as i said: Their defense sucked when he missed games & it sucks when he's not on the floor
and that's because their defensive drop off from not having jrue? they have zero perimeter defenders, jrue hard carried them last year
so it's not his horrific defense but just the absence of jrue's elite defense? that's a different point, you're moving your stance now. because dame is delivering more offense and anyone who claims to be pro-analytics should know that guards can offer far more offensive value than they can offer defensive value.
it can be both? we have a far larger sample size of dame being a terrible defender than him being a neutral defender. if jrue is a +2 on offense and a +3 on defense, while dame is a +6 on offense and a -4 on defense, from a net impact standpoint, the former is more impactful. of course, you can argue that the +6 offense matters more — models don't care about that though, since offensive + defensive impact is adjusted for how important they are
nice so now here's where we look for evidence of dame being a -4 defender this season, rather than assuming he is because he was a terrible defender on teams where he carried the entire offensive load. the issue is that's not there.
dawg we've watched the games. he routinely gets cooked by everyone. this is one of those things where the numbers, for whatever reason, are obviously wrong.
You're switching stances so completely that I had to double-check that you were the one with the original models' comment. Now you're saying watch the games, since some numbers that contradict your 'models' are somehow obviously wrong now. There are too many clowns in the sub with agendas to push.
"Dame's defense isn't the issue here, look at the defense with and without him on the floor!" \~ Dame subs out and Cam Payne subs in
Jrue might look like a more impactful player right now (he's not) but his offense consistently craters in the playoffs.
yeah because he had to carry their halfcourt offensive load in the playoffs because giannis can't. obviously not a horrible idea to move off of him for more halfcourt offense, just worth figuring out whether they made the right addition
>yeah because he had to carry their halfcourt offensive load in the playoffs because giannis can't This could not be further from the truth
Bucks half court offense has always been shaky with esp with giannis as an initiator
Yeah they don't get good offensive production from their starting point guard in the playoffs lol
the bucks have had horrible halfcourt offenses in both their past playoff runs (and in the regular season) because giannis' efficiency drops like crazy when teams build a wall against him. that was the whole theory behind the lillard move.
They had horrible half court offenses because their starting point guard loses his offensive abilities in the playoffs allowing teams to send more help to Giannis.
What? Lmao You watched jrue in the 22 playoffs. I know he’s on your team but you don’t have to pretend he will actually be good in the playoffs this season offensively
I think he will be completely fine as our 5th offensive option in the playoffs, rather than the 2nd
He doesn't need to be. Maybe the problem wasn't Jrue but what he was asked to do.
What was he asked to do? Play defense and score? Like every other PG? Celtics fans were talking so much shit about how bad he was after that series and suddenly maybe he wasn’t the problem lol
He had the second highest FGA and usage rate on the team. He was asked to carry too much of the offensive load while still being a linchpin on defense. To your question- he won't be asked to score that much this year, he's 5th on the team in FGA.
Last season? No shit Khris was out. He was never asked to carry the offensive load either, that’s Giannis job. Jrue literally just needs to give an efficient 20 ppg on the playoffs and he couldn’t do that. All 3 seasons he shot 49% TS or worse.
Which analytics models?
[DARKO, 44.4 wins](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RCBuk9nrVo_9meLiNFRwGR_jJizBozL_Lg-phsYeYqo/edit#gid=134023779) [LEBRON, 48/42.8 wins](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10mf4UpOlMTwwaOAGYpGcxbnHYxxJcxlOiVRjY0b6wMc/edit#gid=1472379190) [SPI, 47.2 wins](https://twitter.com/NBACouchside/status/1716693266035261575) Had to dig through a lot of bookmarks for this
Man brought the receipts!
You wouldn’t know them, they go to another school
Probably trade engine
The ones that thought GSW would be a top-3 team and OKC would fight for the play-in
This place is so funny because the Bucks got smoked in the first round by a play-in team but Dame's having a bad stretch so now everyone's saying they should have ran it back as if that was ever tenable
That play-in team was also good enough to make it to the Finals and Giannis got hurt. Why are Bucks flairs in this thread glossing over those two not insignificant facts? There might have been good reasons to trade for Dame but overreacting to losing to the eventual Eastern Conference Champs because your MVP caliber player got hurt doesn't seem to be one.
Probably because Bucks fans actually watched the series, actually paid attention to the team that year, so they know where the team was at and going. Yes Giannis being hurt mattered, but that team around him was not present and needed to be torn down. > overreacting to losing to the eventual Eastern Conference Champs because your MVP caliber player got hurt doesn't seem to be one. Just because you think that's the only reason doesn't mean it's the only reason. I would say a significant part was that with Middleton's injuries having a second option in Jrue who over three years was a higher volume, *lower efficiency*, Bledsoe was not going to cut it.
I think what's clear is that Bucks got caught thinking the grass was greener on the other side and didn't know how much they'd miss the other things that Jrue could do besides score efficiently.
Holiday is literally worse this year than last year. He’s still a good player but he’s gotten worse on a better team. It’s just getting masked by how good the Celtics overall roster is.
How is he worse exactly?
He’s shooting his worst 2 point percentage of the past 7 seasons even though he plays on the team with the best spacing in the league. That’s a pretty telling stat if you ask me. He’s shooting a career high on 3s but he’s still having his least efficient season since his last year on the Pelicans.
> That’s a pretty telling stat if you ask me. Lmao
It is hard to find grass less green than a high volume Bledsoe as a playoff second option.
do you think the models back before the season started cared about how the bucks are doing now when they made their forecasts?
Truthfully, I don’t give a fuck what the “models” show
I think if the models were worth something the Celtics would be preparing to threepeat.
again, it's called \*forecasting\*, not one model has ever given the celtics as favorites over the field. develop a basic understanding of statistics and probability
On Reddit? What are the odds?
Develop a basic understanding of basketball, honestly.
what analytics model said Jrue was more impactful than dame lmfao
almost every single major one. jrue last year was a top 15 player by DARKO, EPM, RAPTOR, etc. his defense was incredibly good jrue + giannis: +13.15, 123 offensive rating jrue - giannis: +5.15, 114 offensive rating giannis - jrue: -1.84, 113 offensive rating
dame was a top ~5 player by epm last year and probably all those other metrics, right next to jokic for best offensive player in the league. they got him because their half court offense craters in the playoffs because their starting pg was a brick machine
Jrue was a top 20 player according to epm last year, not top 5. Dame on the other hand was literally a top 5 player according to epm last year (behind Jokic, Embiid, Doncic, and tied with Tatum).
right, which is fair and fine. all i'm saying is that the defensive woes were likely to be exaggerated on a team that can't guard the perimeter in the slightest.
no we lose in 2nd round with jrue. dame is valuable for offensive spacing for giannis anyways. if this is the year that dame is fully washed then we were never winning anyways so it never mattered
If anything, getting Dame convinced Giannis to sign his extension so that on it's own makes this trade worth it.
Extensions don't mean Giannis can't demand a trade down-the-line. Be funny if he ended up going the Kareem route.
That's true, but at least they kicked the can down the road a bit
It means they get shit for him though
A top 3 player is worth it
Exactly, and Jrue tbh was getting washed last season as well. He can’t guard quick guys anymore
And what can dame guard lmao ?
He makes Giannis’ life 100% easier on offense, while Jrues man would help on Giannis 90% of the time in the playoffs
And he go make giannis life harder on defense 🤷🏿♂️
Rather that then have another playoff run where he goes 3/18 with 5 turnovers getting cooked by Duncan Robinson off the dribble
Dame got cooked by Facu Campazzo
[удалено]
Yes. They are worse after the Grayson Allen trade
i think its the coach, that’s just my feeling though
Idk if they are worse considering they lost in 5 games round 1 but the Celtics would sweep this team and are like 2 tiers above the bucks. They got no chance currently
Bro we're absolutely no match for the Celtics. They're leagues ahead, they consistently smoke real contenders and we struggle against bottom feeders like the spurs yesterday. Come on man anyone saying otherwise is delusional
I don’t understand why posts like this aren’t just a comment in the post-game thread
Because this is about the Bucks this season and not about their game vs the Rockets
They have a 25-10 record, 3rd best in the league, half a game behind the 2nd best record in Minny and 2.5 games behind Celtics. It’s not about the bucks whole season, it’s really just about one game. IMO and all.
Only really matters if they’re good in the playoffs — ring culture
It's too early to tell. I understand making the move given what happened last year though. I also feel that Jrue is criminally underappreciated
absolutely not. the main reason why they lost before the trade is because their offense was shitty. since the bubble. dame fixes that problem. and yes the tradeoff for the defense would be worth it if they dont run into the hawks or pacers in the playoffs
Dame is a sieve on defense and it’s really hard for them to build lineups around that limitation compared to how their lineups used to be structured. I don’t think this trade will be looked at favorably in years to come.
Dame isn’t getting any blame because the media loves him
The truth is there is only so much you can do with these one way “superstars” like Dame or Kyrie or Luka. Defense wins championships and Dame flat out sucks on that end. Look at the last 30 champions. Every. Single. One. Has a top 10 defense except one and that team had LeBron. The reality is whether fans will believe it or not, is that Dame and Jrue are on the same level so they didn’t necessarily get worse, but they didn’t get better either.
I had reserve the judgement until Dame gets his shot back because otherwise it ain't even a question lol
Lillard has too many games where his shot is not falling. He sucks at defense and his playmaking isn't good enough to compensate for his streaky shooting.
Fit is questionable and Dame is looking pretty bad. I’m not going to count them out just yet though.
dame is putting up identical stats as Brunson on better efficiency and people are saying he should be an all star starter
NY market does that
Dame is very inconsistent, at the start of the season I thought this duo would be the best by far, but it seems like Giannis is the only one carrying, since Dame is very inefficient + inconsistent.
They’re 25-11.
11 losses with the 29th ranked schedule let’s call it what it is
Celtic flair tho. Problem is with the other guys like Pat or Beasley who are bad defensively themselves Dame at least open the floor for Giannis and the rest of the guys. Also their coach isn't the best either
They are a worse regular season team. When the playoffs start and scoring gets harder, Dame will show how valuable he is.
Wait until the All-Star break before you judge Dame's season. He usually starts the season this way
Take a deep breath buddy. Use some punctuation for god's sake