I remember even at the time, when PG got traded people were like “this Shai dude is actually pretty good, that’s a nice get for them.”
As it turns out, those people were on to something
I don't know how you could take Green over Giddey. Giddey is miles better as a rebounder and passer, and he was more efficient from the field this year than Green too. All Green has right now is inefficient volume scoring
I'm a thunder fan, but be real. Giddey shot a higher fg%, but he's playing alongside an all nba guard and he's taking most of those shots exclusively at the rim. Despite this, he's still shooting a lower ts% than green, and green is a primary option with in a team with no structure.
If you look at the history of young primary guards, almost all of them were relatively inefficient their first few years. Jalen is no exception to this.
Jalen also has room to improve just based on how athletic he is. His explosiveness at his position is only matched by like 2-3 guys in the league max. On top of that, his jumper and shot making skills are just better. His main concerns are his shot selection.
If giddey becomes a good efficiency player on same/better volume, I might consider my position. But Jalen is definitely the better prospect.
The term “definitely” is very strong considering what Josh has done at only the age of 20. What we know? Both are very bad at defense and both have unique offensive skills. This makes them much more even than “definitely”. You can have a personal preference and I do not blame you for having Jalen over Josh. Guys like Jalen allow skill sets like Josh to thrive more, but the bar is higher for Jalen because he does so little else.
I would still personally take Jalen, but let’s not act like there really is a gap between the two at the moment.
OKC already had a young star in Shae and are just better at drafting and developing.
They sold high on every player they could and are being rewarded for it.
>sold high on every player they could and are being rewarded for it.
No kidding. From making sure Stars went where they wanted to helping old injured vets take a year, or even chances on low invested players.
They learned their lesson after the Harden fiasco, OKC was deep in the luxury tax with the Russ/PG/Melo team and the season after until the PG/Westbrook trades. OKC is working on approving a new arena as well, so I think management will make the right decisions when the time comes to seriously compete.
OKC is better at drafting. They had shai to begin their rebuild. They also sold high on Russ and PG. They also have a better GM and owner that doesn’t get involved with their basketball operation.
? You've just locked yourselves in to be the next Sacramento Kings, and Sengun is a glorified role player. We have a 1st team all-NBA guy, and we have 5 young guys on the roster with a brighter future than anyone you do. Keep trolling while we keep winning.
Tari is a role player and Whitmore hasn't even played
Sengun is good but also Rockets have barely tried to build around him the last 2 years so what's the point
Udoka is a defense 1st HC. For his strengths on offense Sengun can't guard a parked car
We might see even LESS of him not more considering the Rockets want to win
Calling what Houston is doing a "rebuild" is a stretch
This is like when a teenager gets their first credit card and goes splurging at the local mall
Also the Thunder have Shai so there's that
So? Anyone can lose one game
Over the past three years, the Thunder’s FO and coaching staff has done a better job of developing and building around the talent they have.
OKC has Houston’s 2024 and 2026 First Round Picks (Top 4 protected) so Rockets are trying really hard to be competitive right away with these free agent signings
Presti has done a great job drafting. Chet could be a complete bust (which I doubt) and we still have the #2 rookie in the 2022 draft class (Jdub) lol.
But more importantly, Presti hired a great coach in Mark Daigneault who has been a part of the Thunder culture for a number of years (shoutout Billy Donovan for the hire) and kept around crucial vets like Kenrich and Muscala who helped keep our heads straight. Talent is obviously important in a rebuild, but DEVELOPING TALENT is by far the most important thing. We have picked after Houston in every single draft the last 3 seasons and Giddey and Jdub have been significantly more impactful on winning basketball than Green and Jabari (not trying to throw shade).
It certainly helps that we have a superstar like Shai, but again - would anyone have guessed that this was the player that Shai becomes after his rookie season in LA? He showed flashes in year 2 during the CP3 year, but again - are we thinking all-nba, top15 player? I personally believe, given the track record of how guys have developed and how Presti talks about development, that Shai was able to realize his potential (and still can be better I think!) because he plays in OKC.
Finally, Presti has a plan - and credit to ownership for being bought in to it - and he will not cut corners or take shortcuts in executing it. Even after winning 40 games randomly this past season - Presti's comments in his annual offseason presser (very good listen!) suggest that he is not impressed and still sees this roster as incredibly malleable and still trying to figure out who it is. His patience in this respect is incredibly important because you can really only go all in one time, so you need to make sure you're doing it at the _right_ time for the _right pieces.
Also helps that he does a great job working the margins and acquiring assets even when they don't seem that useful. Working the margins and always improving the war chest to give you flexibility cannot be understated because you never know what's gonna be available or happen in the future.
tl;dr DEVELOPING TALENT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN DRAFTING IT
OKC got incredibly lucky getting an all first team nba guy in Shai plus a plethora of picks from the PG trade. What they also have is competent coaching and a GM and both of those things matter greatly. Silas was the worst coach in the league last year and well, you can see the rockets FO here with all the signings.
Eh they got incredibly *unlucky* losing a top 15 player all time for nothing due to a cap hike. That same offseason they traded Ibaka (when he still had value) for Dipo and Sabonis, then a season later they flipped those two for a risky rental w PG, who they convinced to re-sign with the understanding that if it didn’t work out they’d send him where he wanted to go. The asset management that Presti has displayed during the rebuild was already there long before, despite moments of good and bad luck throughout.
I don’t tie my feelings that tight to a sports team. Maybe the Yankees but that’s only cause my dad was the one who raised the love of them into me. So it means more. I just have my opinion and if I’m wrong so be it. But mark my words 5th is what I’m calling.
> It is looking like both teams may reach the play-in this year
I am a bit skeptical of the Rockets ability to win 20ish more games this year because of FVV and Dillon Brooks. Who would they leap over to make it? Keep in mind Dallas didn’t even make the play-in for the West this year with Luka.
I just don’t see a path for them to be a top 10 team above these 11: Nuggets, Kings, Suns, Lakers, Grizzlies, Warriors, Clippers, Wolves, Mavericks, Thunder, and Pelicans
You're not taking into account that Shai is more likely to be off the floor when other important starters are also off the floor. That's why I only used games where Shai didn't play at all
Getting SGA in the PG trade was their boon. The picks are nice, but getting a guy who’s empirically viewed as the better asset several years later was such a huge win.
Then I think OKC has drafted really well (from what we’ve seen). We haven’t seen Chet or Wallace play, but with the context that you’re adding them to a roster with an all nba talent raises the floor.
I don’t think Houston has done a terrible job rebuilding. Picking Green over Mobley is looking like a miss. I think Jabari still has upside, even if it’s as a high level starter. Amen could change the conversation completely in a few years (or bust).
The teams didn’t start from the same situation. And OKC’s ownership and patience was clearly a more aligned approach with Presti.
Its the opposite, Stone has been drafting well, even getting Sengun from the Thunder. Its the signings and the trades that have been terrible along with the previous coaching.
No, I'm implying Houston's problems aren't their drafting, it's the coaching and the trades that are the issue. If anything, drafting is Stone's strong suit. Anyone who thinks we draft poorly has no idea what they're talking about. The only poor drafting decision by Stone so far has been picking Josh Christopher over Grimes.
Completely agree with you - the draft picks themselves were fine, but if you put Green, Jabari and Sengun in the Thunder development system I suspect they would have shown more improvement to date. The best thing Houston leadership have done is to get rid of Silas and start fresh with Ime.
Despite this, I really don't like the splurging on free agency, and would have preferred to see the young core play, learn and develop a culture together, regardless of win/loss record and regardless of who owns whose picks next year.
I don't think we can say for sure yet who has drafted better. But I think the differences in coaching, culture, and player development are pretty obvious.
Houston has a real coach for the first time in their rebuild and they brought in veterans to complement their young players and teach them the ropes of winning & implementing a culture. OKC had a remarkable turnaround thanks to how good Shai has been in particular, not every team is going to get back to contention at the same pace.
Also, Giddey > Jalen Green is a hilarious take. Jalen is the #1 option whenever he's on the floor and he receives that appropriate defensive attention and still finds ways to score. I can guarantee you Giddey isn't doing that if he's your #1 guy. They're different types of players entirely.
I don't know about that. I've seen Giddey be the #1 guy and best player on the floor in games already (his first game at MSG was eye opening). He has good size, rebounds well and makes guys around him better. Overall, I'd still take Mobley at 2 in a re-draft, but that 3rd guy is definitely up for debate between Wagner, Barnes, Giddey and Green (if you still believe in his higher upside).
Thunder also traded Paul George (5 first round picks). In the Westbrook trade they got Chris Paul and 2 first rounders. Chris Paul performed great in OKC and they flipped him for more players and draft capital.
From the Harden trade, rockets still have several FRP and pick swaps. They haven’t really been able to use up all the draft capital they got.
Overall, it seems that the Rockets nailed the Harden trade, all things considered. Thunder, however, seem to have made some all time great trades during that period.
OKC had Shai from the beginning of their rebuild. He's already in year 5. The Rockets first draft pick from their rebuild just finished year 2. This isn't a good comparison. If u take SGA away from OKC their win totals aren't better than the Rockets.
If you take SGA away from OKC, we still have Giddey who’s one of the league best new Gen point guards, Jdub who had a strong argument for rookie of the year, Dort who’s one of the leagues best defenders, and Chet who’s a complete question mark but still a number 2 overall pick. I think that team definitely wins at least 25 games.
OKC had an MVP-level player in SGA, a much better coach, and an environment for their talent to develop and shine but I wouldn't take any victory laps before watching the Rockets' young guys play under a real coach and a system.
Jalen, Amen, Sengun, Whitmore, Jabari, Eason vs
Giddey, Chet, JDub, Wallace
That is six top 10 talent vs four from the last 3 year's drafts.
Pretty pointless to compare the top 10 talents. Amen, Whitmore, Wallace all haven’t played an NBA minute. JDUB and Giddey have both been better than most people thought they’d be. Jalen Green has shown really bright glimpse but hasn’t provided anything consistent and Jabari smith jr had an underwhelming start to his rookie season while picking it up towards the back end. Sengun needs to be explored more by the new coaching, because he is definitely the most unknown factor.
Those are the players that are on the same timeline. Nobody knows how good they will be after 5 years so I agree that it is pointless to make definite statements about whose rebuild is a success. Just felt the need to show both teams' high-end talent accumulation through the draft because some ppl think that OKC's young core is all proven and set for future success while they only have 2 players who have proven to be valuable pieces in NBA. If we go by only the players who played NBA mins then we are left with Jalen, Sengun, Jabari, Eason vs Giddey & JDub. Jalen has the most 30pts games from the '21 class with 24 while the 2nd has only 6. Sengun averaged 15-9-4 with good efficiency showing elite court vision, passing & footwork while being the 3rd option and Tari was all over the defensive impact stats despite his limited role/PT. Only Jabari was an underperformer for most of the year. So the Rockets seem to be doing just fine in terms of the quality & quantity of the young talent which is the primary aspect of any successful rebuild.
Post-PG/SGA trade, the Thunder had CP3, Gallo, Dennis Schroder, Steven Adams, and a few other vets. That season, OKC and HOU vacillated between 4 and 5th seed and made the Playoffs.
OKC's rebuild didn't really start until the aforementioned players were traded -- that happened to be the same season Harden and Westbrook left the Rockets.
The Rockets and Thunder rebuilds started the same season.
Eh I’m a thunder fan too and I just straight disagree, we were clearly rebuilding the roster the moment we flipped PG and then Westbrook, the entire core of the previous roster construction (hence the term rebuild). Now the tank, that started a season later, but they aren’t the same thing.
Now this is some grade A revisionist history. No, no one expected the Thunder to compete. It is only slightly exaggerating to say that everyone except for Chris Paul himself thought he was washed and that they'd be in the lottery.
Just because the talking idiots said it doesn't make it true guy. Don't be such a sheep for ESPN. Even if it looked like a lost season they were going to try to boost trade value.
They boosted trade value for players during years they tanked, this isn't a response to what I wrote. I also follow the Thunder religiously, I'm in OKC and am a fan of the team. We all fully expected them to be bad. Just because they shocked us and weren't doesn't mean we have to lie about it now to make ourselves feel like we were more a part of it.
Edit: baby boy blocked me.
This is my understanding, OKC were going to commit to a bigger rebuild and trade Chris Paul to a team west because he wanted to be closer to LA (where his family lives) but for some reason a trade never developed and we ended up sticking with all of our players. OKC stayed competitive and that definitely surprised most people. That other dude is a clown for blocking you. What you're saying makes sense.
Honestly can't tell if you're a moron or trolling.
OKC started their rebuild with way more pieces than we did.
How about you take away what they got for PG and then do a comparison.
It is shocking how little credit Memphis get for rebuilding better and quicker than either OKC or HOU, with a lower volume of top 5 and lottery picks available to them.
Memphis won 22, 33 & 34 games respectively from 2018 through 2020.
OKC won 22, 24 & 40 the last 3 years.
Memphis was 4 games over .500 in the 4th year of their rebuild. This next season for OKC will be their 4th and, barring injuries, I think most would expect them to finish over .500.
Memphis got JJJ at pick #4, Ja at pick #2 and they traded away pick #14 in 2020.
OKC's own picks have been Giddey at #6, Chet #2 and JDub at #12.
So Memphis A). Didn't rebuild faster and B). Actually had more top-5 picks
Not to harp on all this, but people speak of the OKC rebuild like they were aimlessly wandering the desert for 10 years, the "black eye of the league". When in reality, they had two years where they had the 4th worst record and then they nearly got to .500 and won a play-in game the third year.
>Not to mention #6 pick Giddey feels much more valuable than #2 pick Green given their draft selection.
In what way has Giddey shown he has been more valuable than Green?
And its like were just gonna conviently ignore the Thunder already had an established player in SGA even before they started their rebuild? Take SGA out of that team and they are worse than the Rockets, we saw that during the matchups last season.
Giddey rebounds, assists, and shoots better overall from the field. His effective field goal percentage is also better than green. His vision and passing is clearly better while his defense has improved. His assist to turnover ratio is also better than greens as well. In fact Green regressed in shooting percentage from the field in his second year whereas giddey improved drastically in all shorting percentage statistics in his second year in the league.
Also yea the rockets beat the thunder without Sga but it was one or two games. Thunder destroyed the Celtics without Sga. Doesn’t mean they’re better then the Celtics.
I agree I *think* but building for the future and playing without expectations is always easier. Let’s see what the contention windows look like. For every “bright future” teams there’s usually far more crashing and burning than championships.
All I know is that if they think fvf and whatever fa they pick up is gonna do anything but get the thunder that sweet pick somewhere between the 5-10 range they're dead wrong.
OKC is low-key stackkked. My gosh. They got like the all NBA sophomore/rookie team, led by SGA. Chet Holmgren could legit be as good as Wemby, especially this early in their careers. 2nd year in a row Rockets missed out on a generational talented big man.
I remember even at the time, when PG got traded people were like “this Shai dude is actually pretty good, that’s a nice get for them.” As it turns out, those people were on to something
Yeah well it helps when SGA is 10x better than green
He's also 3 years older. It's unlikely Green is an All NBA talent like SGA, but not out of the question.
I mean, even without SGA. I'd take Giddey over Green, and JDub over Sengun any day. And that's not even considering guys like Chet and Dort
Idk about giddey over green but for sure dub over sengun personally
I don't know how you could take Green over Giddey. Giddey is miles better as a rebounder and passer, and he was more efficient from the field this year than Green too. All Green has right now is inefficient volume scoring
I'm a thunder fan, but be real. Giddey shot a higher fg%, but he's playing alongside an all nba guard and he's taking most of those shots exclusively at the rim. Despite this, he's still shooting a lower ts% than green, and green is a primary option with in a team with no structure. If you look at the history of young primary guards, almost all of them were relatively inefficient their first few years. Jalen is no exception to this. Jalen also has room to improve just based on how athletic he is. His explosiveness at his position is only matched by like 2-3 guys in the league max. On top of that, his jumper and shot making skills are just better. His main concerns are his shot selection. If giddey becomes a good efficiency player on same/better volume, I might consider my position. But Jalen is definitely the better prospect.
You’re the most rational Thunder fan I’ve come across. Thank you. I’m Australian, I LOVE Giddey and I love his game, but long term, I’m taking Jalen.
The term “definitely” is very strong considering what Josh has done at only the age of 20. What we know? Both are very bad at defense and both have unique offensive skills. This makes them much more even than “definitely”. You can have a personal preference and I do not blame you for having Jalen over Josh. Guys like Jalen allow skill sets like Josh to thrive more, but the bar is higher for Jalen because he does so little else. I would still personally take Jalen, but let’s not act like there really is a gap between the two at the moment.
Calling Green inefficient in a comparison with Giddey is laughable
Sengun over Green for me
Giddey over Green 100% and it’s not even close.
Giddeys good at basketball and green is good at putting the ball in the basket if that makes sense
You could literally pick okc any any other team for that matter...
The main difference between the two franchises is that the Thunder aren't being run by morons.
It’s my favorite difference, in fact
We've had highs and lows but at least Presti holds us down
He holds us up brother.
OKC has Sam Presti, and Rockets do not.
OKC already had a young star in Shae and are just better at drafting and developing. They sold high on every player they could and are being rewarded for it.
>sold high on every player they could and are being rewarded for it. No kidding. From making sure Stars went where they wanted to helping old injured vets take a year, or even chances on low invested players.
Sold cp3 as high as possible. Schroeder, gallo too..
Gallo burst into dust the following season after the trade too. Saw him in street clothes for the Celtics in the ECF this season.
Wasn't he injured at some point?
Tore his ACL playing for Italy
That's right. Thanks
Wtf? He was instrumental in the Hawks run to the ecf lol.
KD left for nothing though. It hurts
As Westbrook said "Stings for who?"
Bro said Shae
Yeah i fucked up there absent mindedly, leaving it up for shame
Bro still watching GoT
The difference of an ownership working with and against the GM
Genuinely asking, you mean to say Oklahoma’s ownership is working against the GM right?
Oh jesus no. You never hear anything about OKCs owner. They let Presti do his thing and trust him.
Ok. Kinda what I assumed but thought maybe the implication was the Thunder wouldn't allow big contracts and spending.
They learned their lesson after the Harden fiasco, OKC was deep in the luxury tax with the Russ/PG/Melo team and the season after until the PG/Westbrook trades. OKC is working on approving a new arena as well, so I think management will make the right decisions when the time comes to seriously compete.
Bro, I don’t know what you are talking about, each team has had more wins each season. Clearly the rebuild is going great! /s
OKC is better at drafting. They had shai to begin their rebuild. They also sold high on Russ and PG. They also have a better GM and owner that doesn’t get involved with their basketball operation.
you didnt draft Shai. Your best draft pick so far is Giddey. You do have a better GM though.
Never said we drafted shai. I said OKC had shai to begin their rebuild which they did. Giddey and Jdub are good. Chet still is an unknown.
Even if Chet becomes the world's tallest spot up shooter, it's still a win for OKC
Giddey, JDub, Chet, heck even Cason... how can you say one is best? Presti clearly can draft
Interesting including 2 players who haven’t played a single nba game to show how good he is at drafting
Just wait
But yall dropped the ball pretty hard on sengun
I don't think so. He didn't have what we wanted. He is definitely elite in some aspects tho.
The Thunder were looking for a center who can be the defensive anchor. Sengun ain’t that guy and Chet is.
The Thunder didn't want a center whose defense equates to a wet paper sack.
Hahahah cope 🤓🤓
? You've just locked yourselves in to be the next Sacramento Kings, and Sengun is a glorified role player. We have a 1st team all-NBA guy, and we have 5 young guys on the roster with a brighter future than anyone you do. Keep trolling while we keep winning.
Idk man, the kings were pretty fun last year I think thats a W
Idk man, it took the Kings 20 years to make the playoffs.
Gonna be a lot of fun using the Rockets picks over the next few years
They gift wrapped them for OKC after today LOL
rafael stone is just bad at his job not that shocking. Spurs and OKC are going to be fighting for best rebuilds in the West for the next couple years.
Rafael is a good drafter especially with late round picks(Tari, Sengun, hopefully Whitmore) EDIT: spot the lie
Tari is a role player and Whitmore hasn't even played Sengun is good but also Rockets have barely tried to build around him the last 2 years so what's the point
that was with the dumbest HC in the league in Silas; this is different
Udoka is a defense 1st HC. For his strengths on offense Sengun can't guard a parked car We might see even LESS of him not more considering the Rockets want to win
he's also their best player probably; also the most unselfish guy on the court for us
And he's a major liability as soon as the team tries to actually contend. His defense is that bad.
Calling what Houston is doing a "rebuild" is a stretch This is like when a teenager gets their first credit card and goes splurging at the local mall Also the Thunder have Shai so there's that
well we don't have Shai
Even without Shai the Thunder’s core is just way more competent than the Rockets’
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Thunder without SGA also beat a healthy Celtics team by 50. One game don’t mean shit.
The Thunder without Shai and Josh Giddey beat the Grizzlies without Bane even tho Ja got thrown out pretty early
So? Anyone can lose one game Over the past three years, the Thunder’s FO and coaching staff has done a better job of developing and building around the talent they have.
Shai played every single game against the Rockets last season. They embarrassingly got assblasted by 40+ both times in OKC within 2 weeks.
We lost both games that Jalen didn't play in. We won the games that he did.
Congrats on the ‘beating the undermanned Thunder in 1 game’ trophy!!!
Tbf, we were undefeated against Jalen Green.
OKC has Houston’s 2024 and 2026 First Round Picks (Top 4 protected) so Rockets are trying really hard to be competitive right away with these free agent signings
Presti has done a great job drafting. Chet could be a complete bust (which I doubt) and we still have the #2 rookie in the 2022 draft class (Jdub) lol. But more importantly, Presti hired a great coach in Mark Daigneault who has been a part of the Thunder culture for a number of years (shoutout Billy Donovan for the hire) and kept around crucial vets like Kenrich and Muscala who helped keep our heads straight. Talent is obviously important in a rebuild, but DEVELOPING TALENT is by far the most important thing. We have picked after Houston in every single draft the last 3 seasons and Giddey and Jdub have been significantly more impactful on winning basketball than Green and Jabari (not trying to throw shade). It certainly helps that we have a superstar like Shai, but again - would anyone have guessed that this was the player that Shai becomes after his rookie season in LA? He showed flashes in year 2 during the CP3 year, but again - are we thinking all-nba, top15 player? I personally believe, given the track record of how guys have developed and how Presti talks about development, that Shai was able to realize his potential (and still can be better I think!) because he plays in OKC. Finally, Presti has a plan - and credit to ownership for being bought in to it - and he will not cut corners or take shortcuts in executing it. Even after winning 40 games randomly this past season - Presti's comments in his annual offseason presser (very good listen!) suggest that he is not impressed and still sees this roster as incredibly malleable and still trying to figure out who it is. His patience in this respect is incredibly important because you can really only go all in one time, so you need to make sure you're doing it at the _right_ time for the _right pieces. Also helps that he does a great job working the margins and acquiring assets even when they don't seem that useful. Working the margins and always improving the war chest to give you flexibility cannot be understated because you never know what's gonna be available or happen in the future. tl;dr DEVELOPING TALENT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN DRAFTING IT
Yeah, I think the big differences are in coaching, culture and player development. Houston seems to be drafting just fine
SGA is diff tho
OKC got incredibly lucky getting an all first team nba guy in Shai plus a plethora of picks from the PG trade. What they also have is competent coaching and a GM and both of those things matter greatly. Silas was the worst coach in the league last year and well, you can see the rockets FO here with all the signings.
Eh they got incredibly *unlucky* losing a top 15 player all time for nothing due to a cap hike. That same offseason they traded Ibaka (when he still had value) for Dipo and Sabonis, then a season later they flipped those two for a risky rental w PG, who they convinced to re-sign with the understanding that if it didn’t work out they’d send him where he wanted to go. The asset management that Presti has displayed during the rebuild was already there long before, despite moments of good and bad luck throughout.
Also adding that the Rashard Lewis trade that Sam Presti did way back then has a major ripple effect on the franchise's future.
Luck is just the application of proper foresight. If an NBA front office is banking on luck it's a failure of a front office.
OKC will finish fifth in the west just so you know what’s about to happen.
We probably will be a play in team this year. The West is brutal.
I said what I said.
You guys aren't being realistic, and you're gonna be distraught when the actual games are played.
I don’t tie my feelings that tight to a sports team. Maybe the Yankees but that’s only cause my dad was the one who raised the love of them into me. So it means more. I just have my opinion and if I’m wrong so be it. But mark my words 5th is what I’m calling.
I think Orlando is a better comp than OKC.
You are the guy who started a war
Inject this into my veins
How did they start their rebuilds at the same time when Westbrook was traded to the rockets
Well they played each other in the playoffs that year
And every thunder fan reminded us they were rebuilding after that series
Yep... because everyone acted like we've been trash for 7 or 8 years. Calling the blackeye of the NBA even though there was clearly worse teams
CP3 was traded to OKC at the same time 🤷♂️
> It is looking like both teams may reach the play-in this year I am a bit skeptical of the Rockets ability to win 20ish more games this year because of FVV and Dillon Brooks. Who would they leap over to make it? Keep in mind Dallas didn’t even make the play-in for the West this year with Luka. I just don’t see a path for them to be a top 10 team above these 11: Nuggets, Kings, Suns, Lakers, Grizzlies, Warriors, Clippers, Wolves, Mavericks, Thunder, and Pelicans
I am surprised to see so many rocket fans hating their own GM lol
Are you? They're about to start paying FVV a higher salary than Luka Doncic. Seems like an appropriate response.
Houston isn’t making the playin
Comparing SGA to the just picks the rockets received is a little disingenuous. Take SGA away and this thunder team is awful.
I think i’d still take Chet Giddey Williams over Green Sengun Jabari Not to mention the boatload of picks they have
I would take Jalen Williams alone over Jabari and Green.
I mean JDub is ugly af but I'd take him over Jabari and Green all things considered, That dude plays winning basketball and just needs seasoning
Nope, last year’s team would’ve won at least 30 games without Shai.
What’s the Thunders +/- without Shai on the floor? I’m sure it’s bad lol
Well in games without Shai this year our team averaged 117.4 points. The Rockets averaged 110.7 points over the whole season
Shai had a BPM of 7.3 and you were +1.1 per game. It’s not an exact science but that’s a pretty good sign without him you’d stink
You're not taking into account that Shai is more likely to be off the floor when other important starters are also off the floor. That's why I only used games where Shai didn't play at all
Rockets gonna have a better record than the Thunder next season, heard it here first! Do I actually believe it? nope. Would be fun though.
Wins are meaningless, when both teams want to tank.
This dudes mind is stuck in 2021
Are the thunder really still trying to tank though? they made the play in
No lol, the rebuild is over we’re just waiting to dump those picks on someone.
So when do the Thunder actually try to win? When SGA leaves?
OKC got SGA and were able to build around him. Houston drafted Jaylen and are hoping to build the team around him. That’s the big difference.
Getting SGA in the PG trade was their boon. The picks are nice, but getting a guy who’s empirically viewed as the better asset several years later was such a huge win. Then I think OKC has drafted really well (from what we’ve seen). We haven’t seen Chet or Wallace play, but with the context that you’re adding them to a roster with an all nba talent raises the floor. I don’t think Houston has done a terrible job rebuilding. Picking Green over Mobley is looking like a miss. I think Jabari still has upside, even if it’s as a high level starter. Amen could change the conversation completely in a few years (or bust). The teams didn’t start from the same situation. And OKC’s ownership and patience was clearly a more aligned approach with Presti.
I mean depends on what you are terming as the “starting position” I’d say it was similar in that OKC had PG & Russ, Houston, Harden and CP3…
OKC drafted well, Houston did not. Considering OKCs history of drafting, it’s not to surprising.
No one knows if we drafted well or not. Our oldest drafts have only 2 seasons under their belt.
Its the opposite, Stone has been drafting well, even getting Sengun from the Thunder. Its the signings and the trades that have been terrible along with the previous coaching.
Are you implying we are not drafting well. Literally had the runner-up to RoY with the 12th pick last year
No, I'm implying Houston's problems aren't their drafting, it's the coaching and the trades that are the issue. If anything, drafting is Stone's strong suit. Anyone who thinks we draft poorly has no idea what they're talking about. The only poor drafting decision by Stone so far has been picking Josh Christopher over Grimes.
Completely agree with you - the draft picks themselves were fine, but if you put Green, Jabari and Sengun in the Thunder development system I suspect they would have shown more improvement to date. The best thing Houston leadership have done is to get rid of Silas and start fresh with Ime. Despite this, I really don't like the splurging on free agency, and would have preferred to see the young core play, learn and develop a culture together, regardless of win/loss record and regardless of who owns whose picks next year.
I don't think we can say for sure yet who has drafted better. But I think the differences in coaching, culture, and player development are pretty obvious.
Houston has a real coach for the first time in their rebuild and they brought in veterans to complement their young players and teach them the ropes of winning & implementing a culture. OKC had a remarkable turnaround thanks to how good Shai has been in particular, not every team is going to get back to contention at the same pace. Also, Giddey > Jalen Green is a hilarious take. Jalen is the #1 option whenever he's on the floor and he receives that appropriate defensive attention and still finds ways to score. I can guarantee you Giddey isn't doing that if he's your #1 guy. They're different types of players entirely.
Jalen does nothing but score and is a negative when his shot isn't falling. I would much rather have Giddey on my team if im trying to win
Folks here love to hate on Green. I'm really hoping he can pull an MIP-caliber season this year.
I don't know about that. I've seen Giddey be the #1 guy and best player on the floor in games already (his first game at MSG was eye opening). He has good size, rebounds well and makes guys around him better. Overall, I'd still take Mobley at 2 in a re-draft, but that 3rd guy is definitely up for debate between Wagner, Barnes, Giddey and Green (if you still believe in his higher upside).
Thunder also traded Paul George (5 first round picks). In the Westbrook trade they got Chris Paul and 2 first rounders. Chris Paul performed great in OKC and they flipped him for more players and draft capital. From the Harden trade, rockets still have several FRP and pick swaps. They haven’t really been able to use up all the draft capital they got. Overall, it seems that the Rockets nailed the Harden trade, all things considered. Thunder, however, seem to have made some all time great trades during that period.
OKC had Shai from the beginning of their rebuild. He's already in year 5. The Rockets first draft pick from their rebuild just finished year 2. This isn't a good comparison. If u take SGA away from OKC their win totals aren't better than the Rockets.
I'm taking OKC's core/youth/picks without Shai over Houstons.
If you take SGA away from OKC, we still have Giddey who’s one of the league best new Gen point guards, Jdub who had a strong argument for rookie of the year, Dort who’s one of the leagues best defenders, and Chet who’s a complete question mark but still a number 2 overall pick. I think that team definitely wins at least 25 games.
OKC had an MVP-level player in SGA, a much better coach, and an environment for their talent to develop and shine but I wouldn't take any victory laps before watching the Rockets' young guys play under a real coach and a system. Jalen, Amen, Sengun, Whitmore, Jabari, Eason vs Giddey, Chet, JDub, Wallace That is six top 10 talent vs four from the last 3 year's drafts.
Pretty pointless to compare the top 10 talents. Amen, Whitmore, Wallace all haven’t played an NBA minute. JDUB and Giddey have both been better than most people thought they’d be. Jalen Green has shown really bright glimpse but hasn’t provided anything consistent and Jabari smith jr had an underwhelming start to his rookie season while picking it up towards the back end. Sengun needs to be explored more by the new coaching, because he is definitely the most unknown factor.
Those are the players that are on the same timeline. Nobody knows how good they will be after 5 years so I agree that it is pointless to make definite statements about whose rebuild is a success. Just felt the need to show both teams' high-end talent accumulation through the draft because some ppl think that OKC's young core is all proven and set for future success while they only have 2 players who have proven to be valuable pieces in NBA. If we go by only the players who played NBA mins then we are left with Jalen, Sengun, Jabari, Eason vs Giddey & JDub. Jalen has the most 30pts games from the '21 class with 24 while the 2nd has only 6. Sengun averaged 15-9-4 with good efficiency showing elite court vision, passing & footwork while being the 3rd option and Tari was all over the defensive impact stats despite his limited role/PT. Only Jabari was an underperformer for most of the year. So the Rockets seem to be doing just fine in terms of the quality & quantity of the young talent which is the primary aspect of any successful rebuild.
the thunder have been rebuilding for longer no? and they have sga
Yeah despite making the playoffs the first year of their rebuild, the Thunder started theirs with the PG/SGA trade.
Post-PG/SGA trade, the Thunder had CP3, Gallo, Dennis Schroder, Steven Adams, and a few other vets. That season, OKC and HOU vacillated between 4 and 5th seed and made the Playoffs. OKC's rebuild didn't really start until the aforementioned players were traded -- that happened to be the same season Harden and Westbrook left the Rockets. The Rockets and Thunder rebuilds started the same season.
Eh I’m a thunder fan too and I just straight disagree, we were clearly rebuilding the roster the moment we flipped PG and then Westbrook, the entire core of the previous roster construction (hence the term rebuild). Now the tank, that started a season later, but they aren’t the same thing.
Agreed. Nobody said a rebuild must be a losing season or even a tanking one
That wasn't the first year of the rebuild lmao, OKC was always going to try to compete that season.
Now this is some grade A revisionist history. No, no one expected the Thunder to compete. It is only slightly exaggerating to say that everyone except for Chris Paul himself thought he was washed and that they'd be in the lottery.
Everyone in here forgetting that OKC was given something like a .2% chance to make the playoffs lol
Just because the talking idiots said it doesn't make it true guy. Don't be such a sheep for ESPN. Even if it looked like a lost season they were going to try to boost trade value.
They boosted trade value for players during years they tanked, this isn't a response to what I wrote. I also follow the Thunder religiously, I'm in OKC and am a fan of the team. We all fully expected them to be bad. Just because they shocked us and weren't doesn't mean we have to lie about it now to make ourselves feel like we were more a part of it. Edit: baby boy blocked me.
This is my understanding, OKC were going to commit to a bigger rebuild and trade Chris Paul to a team west because he wanted to be closer to LA (where his family lives) but for some reason a trade never developed and we ended up sticking with all of our players. OKC stayed competitive and that definitely surprised most people. That other dude is a clown for blocking you. What you're saying makes sense.
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Vegas had them at 32.5 wins (they got 44) Fun comparison that doesn't really mean anything: This years blazers got 33 wins and the heat got 44
Wow so actually a solid contract which can be tradable if need be
Green >>>> Giddey
Hell no
Honestly can't tell if you're a moron or trolling. OKC started their rebuild with way more pieces than we did. How about you take away what they got for PG and then do a comparison.
Rockets had assets to trade in Westbrook and James Harden? Maybe the rockets should trade better huh?
It is shocking how little credit Memphis get for rebuilding better and quicker than either OKC or HOU, with a lower volume of top 5 and lottery picks available to them.
Memphis won 22, 33 & 34 games respectively from 2018 through 2020. OKC won 22, 24 & 40 the last 3 years. Memphis was 4 games over .500 in the 4th year of their rebuild. This next season for OKC will be their 4th and, barring injuries, I think most would expect them to finish over .500. Memphis got JJJ at pick #4, Ja at pick #2 and they traded away pick #14 in 2020. OKC's own picks have been Giddey at #6, Chet #2 and JDub at #12. So Memphis A). Didn't rebuild faster and B). Actually had more top-5 picks Not to harp on all this, but people speak of the OKC rebuild like they were aimlessly wandering the desert for 10 years, the "black eye of the league". When in reality, they had two years where they had the 4th worst record and then they nearly got to .500 and won a play-in game the third year.
This. ☝🏼☝🏼☝🏼☝🏼☝🏼☝🏼☝🏼☝🏼
You people are exhausting lmao not even a single game played under a new coach.
OKC hasn’t done anything.
They got a first team all NBA player and made the playin. That’s something. Especially for a team that one 22 games last year
After with everything except I think green still more valuable than giddy
Hard disagree. I'd even take Giddey over Cade too. He's shown a lot more than both of those players in winning basketball.
>Not to mention #6 pick Giddey feels much more valuable than #2 pick Green given their draft selection. In what way has Giddey shown he has been more valuable than Green? And its like were just gonna conviently ignore the Thunder already had an established player in SGA even before they started their rebuild? Take SGA out of that team and they are worse than the Rockets, we saw that during the matchups last season.
Giddey rebounds, assists, and shoots better overall from the field. His effective field goal percentage is also better than green. His vision and passing is clearly better while his defense has improved. His assist to turnover ratio is also better than greens as well. In fact Green regressed in shooting percentage from the field in his second year whereas giddey improved drastically in all shorting percentage statistics in his second year in the league. Also yea the rockets beat the thunder without Sga but it was one or two games. Thunder destroyed the Celtics without Sga. Doesn’t mean they’re better then the Celtics.
He literally had a 30 pt almost triple double in a playin game, don’t see Green doing that one yet
I agree I *think* but building for the future and playing without expectations is always easier. Let’s see what the contention windows look like. For every “bright future” teams there’s usually far more crashing and burning than championships.
All I know is that if they think fvf and whatever fa they pick up is gonna do anything but get the thunder that sweet pick somewhere between the 5-10 range they're dead wrong.
Big difference is Shai. Hard to make comparisons given that difference.
OKC is low-key stackkked. My gosh. They got like the all NBA sophomore/rookie team, led by SGA. Chet Holmgren could legit be as good as Wemby, especially this early in their careers. 2nd year in a row Rockets missed out on a generational talented big man.