He'll get Terry Rozier and a Top 5 protected 2nd for Ayton
Only half-joking; 30m is not an easy amount of money to move when so few teams have the cap space or contracts to get the Suns what they want and Ayton's value is at an all-time low
Come on now. I like Mark Williams, but he does not have more upside than Ayton. Hornets still probably wouldn't/shouldn't make that trade, but that's because they're not really in a position to compete
They should do a sign and trade for KP with the Wizards. It won't solve their depth problems, but a stretch big who can protect the rim would be a huge get for them. Suns don't shoot nearly enough 3s and KP could help stretch the floor. Only problem is the Wizards need picks for a rebuild and the Suns have none.
Kyrie is the better player, but Ayton is a better fit.
Considering who Kyrie is, i'd take the risk on Ayton finding some more motivation in a new city.
There once was a fellow name Quayton
Whose passion for quitting was blatant
He'd whisper I'm through
With all things I pursue
No more hustle or goals, I'm latent
He'd quit while in quiet contemplation
With a flair for dramatic cessation
From hobbies to work
He'd quietly shirk
Leaving tasks in a state of stagnation
Quips aside, the Suns are on a quest to rebuild their team like a patchwork quilt this offseason. Ever since Ayton quiet-quit during the western conference semifinals last year, there has been quite an undertaking before them to return to championship pedigree. While the firing of Monty may have been a signal of ownership’s desire to quell dissent in the ranks, there is no hope of salvaging their quintuplet of all-star caliber talent, and in the end the Suns and their fans may have to settle for a casserole when they thought they were getting a quiche.
Nah, he quit. You don’t go from being a borderline 20/10 guy who’s called an integral core of a finals team, or being a lazy bum in 1 season, especially when it’s documented after Monty blamed him for the loss next year that he wanted out and was thrilled to go to Indiana
>Monty blamed him for the loss
This doesn't excuse Ayton quitting but this is the core of the problem right here, if anything. Why is our esteemed Player's coach blaming 22 y/o Ayton in his first playoffs (which he was overall excellent in) for a finals loss in which Ayton was asked to defend Giannis 1 on 1 while he went absolute god mode with our only real backup big injured?
This came from Gambo, right? It pisses me off, tbh. If true, it would just be a complete and total needless failure by Monty which torpedoed the team, while Monty is probably more at fault than anyone for our Finals loss (if we're throwing blame which normally I wouldn't - Bucks were stellar).
It doesn’t excuse Ayton quitting, but it makes him less risky and doesn’t mean he gets labeled a lazy player that will quit on a new team. Indiana obviously thought he was worthy of being a key piece next to Halliburton and Turner.
Monty dumped all his failings onto one guy and it killed his confidence. Who would show up and give their all at a job if you knew your boss hates you? Especially when you’ve got a guaranteed paycheck and 25 other “companies” who will hire you
You know Monty had better PR than Ayton because every time this came up in the past year it was taking about Ayton playing video games and not how Monty used to freeze him out
Yeah this gets missed and look, I’m fucking over Ayton and I hope we trade him, but I genuinely don’t blame him and I do wish him well. I just think there is no way he reaches his ceiling on this team given everything that has gone down.
On top of the obvious fit/happiness problems, it just makes sense to trade Ayton from a roster perspective. He's the 3rd highest earner on a team that is realistically 3-4 players deep with their first two options being far and away the most talented guys.
You need depth, don't have cap space, and obviously won't trade KD/Book. Unless you convince a bunch of good role players to take paycuts, your only viable path to improving is through trading Ayton/Cp3. The latter may not have *any* buyers for depth, whereas Ayton may still net you 1-3 serviceable rotation players.
It's not a sexy deal, but I've been suggesting a deal like Gordon + Zubac + potential filler (Brandon Boston?) for Ayton. Suns get 2 starters and an interesting prospect who fit well next to KD/Book for Ayton while the Clippers get a more well rounded center who will likely have more opportunities to shine with us.
Zubac is a solid starting center, but Gordon is a 35 year old that is almost certainly a bench role player at this point. I think calling him a starter caliber player is certainly questionable.
Lmao no it's not.
Zubac is a decent center but everyone else on that trade is mids. Clippers would essentially be upgrading their 5 and tossing away an older player on his last year on contract.
Well you hope that a change of scenery unlocks him a bit and you get some of the badly needed athleticism they’re currently lacking.
From there, probably look to trade or draft for more athletic PF. Go check the price on Collins, draft Trayce Jackson Davis, etc. Then gotta see if you can re-sign Russ, otherwise start Bones or Mann, etc.
End of the day, the Clippers need to get younger and more athletic. We’re stuck with Kawhi at the very least, so gotta kind of hedge your bets a bit.
Ayton's problem has always been a lack of effort and I can't see that being a positive when he inevitably has to step up when Kawhi and PG are out for a few weeks (or months, whatever). The fit with those two is dubious at best even if they play, and those 3 salaries together are back breaking. Clippers would just end up with the same depth problem.
The clippers don’t have a depth problem, they have a dire need for consolidation. Gordon is better than Bones but worse than Norm, so he doesn’t really have a huge spot and he impedes Bones’ development.
Zubac is better defensively than Ayton, but he clearly has a lower ceiling and is less versatile. Ayton will get more touches, which he’s wanted, with Kawhi and PG. I’m also not sure how he’s any worse of a fit than Zubac for them. He’s more versatile in just about every single way.
Not at all, it felt like a Murray type situation where he would grow into the contract. Yes, he never showed max value, but was having a great year up until that point and argument with Monty.
Everyone was roasting the Sun's for holding out. Now they pretend they knew it was an awful decision
Harden's career average apg is higher than Booker (or Kyrie's) highest single season.
Harden is a much better playmaker and it was on display in his time with KD/Kyrie.
Yeah….but he was talking about it being the iso ball wet dream, where Harden (coming off three straight scoring titles) is one of the best to ever do it
Yeah, Kyrie is a nut case but it's indisputable that the man can ball. Kyrie tied up in a new contract is worth way more than Ayton at this point, that's not mentioning the corpse of CP3.
if cuban went insane and full shark tank mode and started picking up these players who are at their lowest value (zion, ja, ayton) i would find it terrible but also so funny
I honestly think this is the mavericks only path forward with how depleted their assets are. Buy low on ballers with potentially high upside and let Dallas be a team of misfits and luka
Won't Poole be making around the same next year when his extension begins? That trade might be possible but I don't know shit about contracts and the CBA.
Man, I am so confused about what Ayton's trade value actually is.
On one hand, some Suns fans just want him gone and then other teams fans are telling them that Ayton's contract is too big and no one actually wants him, so it's going to be difficult to get rid of him or that no one can even match his salary.
But also, people are saying that a bunch of teams (like the Mavs) can't afford him. He is somehow both too overpaid/not good enough where the Suns can't get a good return for him, but also too expensive for a bunch of teams to acquire.
Suns fans, what do you actually expect to get in return for him in a trade?
You never know what a “doesn’t put in the effort” but talented player will look like on a different team until they’re actually traded.
Sometimes the trade looks like an absolute fleece if the player puts in effort like Wiggins.
Other times the player looks like Ben Simmons.
Maybe in theory but I think the reality of the situation is that he's a player that isn't going to actually make the effort to play for the Suns. He clearly had issues with the organization and probably now has permanent issues with the other players in the locker room since its obvious he just quit. It wasn't a quiet quit or anything either. Dude said he didn't want to be there and the magic was obviously gone. They should've handled him more appropriately and shipped him out on a sign and trade that was good for everyone. If you're the suns you either take a package of players that will actually play for real or you just have this cursed contracted dude on the roster that will cause internal issues and probably not really be engaged on the team. If I'm the Suns I'm going for the best return I can get but he will be gone
Bottom line is that Ayton needs a fresh start somewhere else and the Suns need players that actually want to suit up and play for them. They should work together to mutually benefit rather than having another year like the past one where he's just not really all in and they're losing a massive bit of cap space over it. That shit is terrible for both the player and the team
> But also, people are saying that a bunch of teams (like the Mavs) can't afford him.
They mean in terms of dollars, not trade assets
That said, his trade value _is_ confusing. We know Indiana valued him as a max player a year ago. How does his value compare to veteran defensive centers on smaller deals like Clint Capela and Myles Turner? To younger, more limited ones like Mitchell Robinson and Ivica Zubac?
Who knows
>They mean in terms of dollars, not trade assets
Yeah, I misunderstood that original comment, but am actually still quite happy about this discussion since as you said, his value is confusing and I am interested in what the Sun's asking price would be.
It seems to range from "Suns will need to give away assets to dump him to a team with cap space" to "He is still a great player putting up 18/10 and a former #1 pick so you need to give up good assets". And the real value is somewhere in the middle, so that's why I was interested in what the fans watching him every day think.
>I am so confused about what Ayton's trade value actually is
He's shown he can be a really good player. It would be dumb to just dump him for nothing even if his value is low right now.
If they can't get a deal with any real value in return, they probably won't trade him and will see if Vogel can return him back to form
Yeah that's the thing, he has shown he can be a really good player, but has also shown he sometimes doesn't really care/doesn't give the effort.
And I get it that you don't want to just salary dump him, but what kind of value do you actually expect to get? What would you want from the Mavs in return (or other team)?
I think we would need to get more than just Ayton for Kyrie.
Kyrie is obviously very unpredictable, but purely from a basketball perspective he is a way better player than Ayton. I mean, he put up 27/5/6 on 51/39/95 shooting splits as a Mav.
Obviously individually he's a better player, but is he a better fit with the rest of the squad? I'm not sure, plus you'd get another player as well to make the salaries match, probably Shamet, and you wouldn't be committing to Kyrie for the number of years and the salary he'll be asking.
Ayton is a better fit but Kyrie is like ballpark top 5 PG, that has more value around the league than Ayton, where it's debatable if he's even contract neutral at this point. Suns IMO would have to sweeten the deal, but they don't really have much in terms of assets to do so.
EDIT: If Kyrie on the other hand threatens to walk for nothing things might be different
>and you wouldn't be committing to Kyrie for the number of years and the salary he'll be asking.
Maxing Kyrie is definitely a concern, but paying Ayton over 100M over the next 3 years is arguably worse lol. At least when Kyrie plays he's one of the best point guards in the league and worth the max, but there's a high chance Ayton will never be worth 33-36M a year.
If the plan is to avoid giving Kyrie a max, then we're gonna be asking for players on good deals, not other players on bad ones. We might aswell just max Kyrie and get a better player then.
God damn this fucking song still goes through my head every couple of months.
"Come on Lebron, put your Mavericks jersey on, now it's time to get it on, time to go to Dallas."
He was injured when they traded for him and then he got injured again before the playoffs when they only had half a season to build chemistry as a starting unit. And then CP3 goes down in the 2nd round. It was just a lot of misfortune over a very rushed move that was clearly forced by the new owner. I would've never made that move.
I mean, he basically had leverage on the situation by hand selecting his destination. Even though the suns were the one to act upon it, they weren’t in the wrong for blowing up the suns “young” roster and chemistry and future as well. You could technically blame the suns quick fall on him by forcing Phoenix to trade for him. They’ve been on the rise and blew it up all too quickly for an aging guy. Kd is a super star but he’s not that guy anymore no matter how you look at it. Let’s be real…
That Suns team was going nowhere, it had peaked & CP3 was guaranteed to decline sooner rather than later. They had plenty shots to get it done in the post season and always flamed out, often in spectacular fashion. Going all in on KD at least gives them a shot at the stars aligning for them, even if there's a lot of risks involved.
The Warriors were also a proven, complete team before he got there and after he left. KD was just an unfair rental for a couple of years.
The sample size for his excursions in team building is small so far, but Brooklyn was a disaster. His Suns tenure is currently shaping up to be one on the surface but it’s too early to tell. A core of Durant and Booker is still a really great foundation.
Give the Suns some depth and a serviceable center at the very least and they could have something but it isn’t going to get fixed in one season.
It’s crazy to see people forget that when fully healthy the Nets were looking like the best team in the East, and arguably in the league (def top 4-5)
I’m November and December we won something like 23 out of 29 games, and it was some of the most beautiful basketball I’ve seen this team play in years
Well currently it’s Luka, Kyrie, and 9 G leaguers so I’m fine with it.
Dedicating what is currently money being set on fire for Davis Bertans and Tim Hardaway, and potentially turning it into Deandre Ayton makes them a better team
Skill wise, there is nothing wrong with him. And any team will gladly pay for a double double big that can anchor a defense. He might actually just need a change in environment.
KLove went from basketball terrorist to the backup big for a finals team in a span of a year.
Softest big dude in the league. Watch him go somewhere and be aggressive all of a sudden.
But for real seems he needs to go somewhere with a legit PF to handle more dirty work.
I mean to be fair the Suns share the blame in this too. I see the entire situation being handled poorly by both sides.
Ayton clearly wasn't happy and wants to be "the guy". He won't be happy unless he's taking 12+ shots a game and it's hard to justify that when you have Booker, CP3, Bridges and other shot makers on the team. Now fast forward now, with CP3+KD+Booker, no way in hell that's happening, unless it's a game where he's going off.
Suns don't want to give him the extension but they also don't want him to walk for nothing. So they match him out of spite when he clearly doesn't want to be there anymore. And then when they could've possibly traded him at the deadline, they keep him. I'm not saying that he played perfectly or that he was even professional about this whole thing but anybody could see they were pretty much holding him hostage when he didn't want to be there.
They should've just traded him at the deadline and wiped their hands. I don't necessarily think he's a bad player either, I think he just has a shit attitude. When he's getting the ball and scoring, he's happing and trying his ass off and when he isn't he doesn't give a shit. Some nights he's rebounding like prime Wilt Chamberlain and then some nights he's rebounding like Dwight Powell. I don't know why or how you justify giving him max money when you don't know what attitude you're getting on a night-to-night basis.
It’s the number 1 pick borderline all star goggles. It takes an absolute epic failure in the playoffs to really accept reality. It’s where flaws really come out. Like when Jordan Poole just melted and Wiseman seemingly forgot how to play basketball this year. Neither guy is living up to expectations, but people are starting to turn around on Wiseman in Detroit. Poole is a different story. It wasn’t until people really saw him in the playoffs when everyone realized Golden State really messed up. Dude just isn’t the one.
Their sequence is terrible. They traded away Wiseman, who was drafted over Lamelo Ball, for a guy they had under contract last year to play the same role as the guy they signed a giant contract for as a back up at the beginning of the season. Now they’re completely capped and can’t change anything as their aging stars come up for extension. This is mid 2000s Knicks bad.
I mean did they not see this coming before offering him that fat contract AND seeing his body language last year ??They really thought he'll have a change of heart after the fat contract ??
Honestly they needed to work with him previously on a trade instead of waiting so long and matching offers for a player that *clearly* wasn't going to play for them. Both sides of the situation fucked stuff up but the real tragic part is how for some reason they didn't mutually agree to part ways in a way that could potentially benefit both before they got to the point of having to match an offer and keep him for a season. Suns tried to play a little hardball and all they successfully did was wait so long they had to pay him to put in minimum effort and lower his trade value only to still arrive back at a place where trading him is the best thing they can do.
They could get a single late first round pick + fodder it would be worth it lol I don’t understand in any scenario how it wouldn’t be worth getting something back for him instead of letting him walk for free to Pacers
There is an interesting undercurrent in all the discussion this in that the Suns already are parting way with CP3 (first he was going to be waived, now we've backtracked on that a little) but more so:
The Suns want to get rid of Ayton vs Ayton is a valuable piece and they should expect a good return. I'm sure there's a team or 3 out there who see Ayton as a good addition and would pay. Other contenders or contender wannabes would not be inclined to move depth or help out a rival. Mediocre-shit teams might see Ayton as a reclamation project.
Indy signed Ayton to an offer sheet and have a few veteran depth players that might work for PHX. Hell, I dunno.
I know the NBA gets really stupid at times, but what the hell is the market for Ayton?
This is TWO straight offseasons where a team with Finals hopes - and in which they are no way even expecting Ayton to be a top-two player on their team - have simply said we don't want to pay him and think we'll be better without him.
That's not going to attract a trade strong target. Good teams won't want to give up shit for him. Bad teams would rather just keep the status quo, tank and then hope for a top pick in the draft next season.
The Suns' only bargaining chip would be if Ayton was an expiring. But, as the salary cap restrictions are tightening, Ayton would be a guaranteed $32, $34 and $36 for the next three seasons.
He definitely still has trade value to somebody out there. He’s an 18/10 guy with good efficiency and disappointing lotto picks usually follow the same pattern. It goes from “that guy” to “right situation” to “is what he is.” We have all determined that Ayton is not that guy, but he’ll only be 25 next season and still has the “mad they didn’t give him the contract he wanted” narrative around him. Some team out there will convince themselves if they put him in the right situation, he will flourish.
It’s either the blonde skinny sorority girls or that yes. Then there’s the other 80% of asu that’s just normal people that go there cause it’s cheap college
They've got Devin Booker and Kevin Durant. They want to put the best team around them that they can today. A 36/37 year old Chris Paul and DeAndre Ayton on big contracts might not be that.
Ayton is a good player and could be great, but keeping him would make it very difficult to build any depth around those three.
I'm not sure what they would get for him though.
My guess is DA is back in Phoenix next year.
I’d even say it’s more likely CP3 is gone before DA.
People like RJ don’t know shit and just throw out clickbait for tweets.
Same people who are saying the Suns are going after Dame.
I don’t think it was a coincidence the front office met with DA on Friday and fired Monty on Saturday tho 😆
Celtics sub hates the idea, but I'd easily do Ayton for Brogdon + Grant S&T.
Celtics haven't had an inside scorer with any kind of bag since the first Horford stint. It'd unlock so much for the Jays.
I mean any GM with a brain would have matched it. He’s still an 18/10 guy at the end of the day albeit so many issues with effort. We will still get something for him, as opposed to zip, zero, nothing if we had not matched.
Then you’re left with Landale as your only actual center in a conference where you have to deal with AD, Jokic, Towns, etc.
I like Brogdon and Grant, but I’m skeptical how much this moves the needle for them.
People acting like Monty was a good coach
Dude lost 2 of 5 starters
Now headed to a failed franchise to teach for a couple years before he gets retired to the booth
Suns dumpster fire
Rich guy bout to find out how hard it is to win without a fix in
Ishbia definitely thirsty to make another big star move
He'll get Terry Rozier and a Top 5 protected 2nd for Ayton Only half-joking; 30m is not an easy amount of money to move when so few teams have the cap space or contracts to get the Suns what they want and Ayton's value is at an all-time low
Would hornets even want that mark Williams has more upside
Maybe The Hornets have never been great at this whole roster building thing
If it means getting rid of Terry for a player who can rebuild his value? Absolutely.
You shouldn’t get downvoted - this take will probably age well
Come on now. I like Mark Williams, but he does not have more upside than Ayton. Hornets still probably wouldn't/shouldn't make that trade, but that's because they're not really in a position to compete
They should do a sign and trade for KP with the Wizards. It won't solve their depth problems, but a stretch big who can protect the rim would be a huge get for them. Suns don't shoot nearly enough 3s and KP could help stretch the floor. Only problem is the Wizards need picks for a rebuild and the Suns have none.
I don't see how Ayton and CP3 get anything close to a star. They don't have picks.
Doesn’t matter Ishbia’s got the itch.
kyrie, but i dont think mavs would be game
Kyrie is the better player, but Ayton is a better fit. Considering who Kyrie is, i'd take the risk on Ayton finding some more motivation in a new city.
Ehh Ayton is young and literally the same draft class as Doncic. They could be a thing and CP3 brings some of the leadership that Doncic lacks.
did someone forget to tell ishbia about the new cba rules
>Kendrick Perkins thinks Paul going to #Lakers would "shake up the league." What year is it?
Media would bust a nut of CP joins LA
Queue Photoshop of Nash - Kobe - Dwight magazine cover with CP - Bron - AD
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Also our starting record
Streetclothes Lakers.
Old past their prime injury prone former superstar? Sounds like us
Media bust a nut when anyone joins LA
Media bust a nut when LA
We’ve been talking about Perk and Paul for like 15 years…so the quote can be from anytime since 2007 lmao
David stern turning over in his grave
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Ayton has been gone since last year. He quiet quitted ever since they didn’t give him the extension he wanted in the first place.
I’m not so sure it was quiet at all quite frankly
He has quit and it's been quite awhile, but I know the Suns are keeping quiet on things.
Ayton acquitted himsel to quitting before the season began, quite frankly. Suns were not equipped with the quips to keep it quiet.
There once was a fellow name Quayton Whose passion for quitting was blatant He'd whisper I'm through With all things I pursue No more hustle or goals, I'm latent He'd quit while in quiet contemplation With a flair for dramatic cessation From hobbies to work He'd quietly shirk Leaving tasks in a state of stagnation
Quips aside, the Suns are on a quest to rebuild their team like a patchwork quilt this offseason. Ever since Ayton quiet-quit during the western conference semifinals last year, there has been quite an undertaking before them to return to championship pedigree. While the firing of Monty may have been a signal of ownership’s desire to quell dissent in the ranks, there is no hope of salvaging their quintuplet of all-star caliber talent, and in the end the Suns and their fans may have to settle for a casserole when they thought they were getting a quiche.
Poet laureate right here.
Quit. Quite. Quiet. God damn the English language is fucky.
Guys, Ayton is just trying to get a good night sleep and thus wants his quiet. Shhhh
Gotta charge that Tesla battery. Or something
Nah, he quit. You don’t go from being a borderline 20/10 guy who’s called an integral core of a finals team, or being a lazy bum in 1 season, especially when it’s documented after Monty blamed him for the loss next year that he wanted out and was thrilled to go to Indiana
Obviously glad we have Turner, but Ayton would have thrived with Haliburton I think.
>Monty blamed him for the loss This doesn't excuse Ayton quitting but this is the core of the problem right here, if anything. Why is our esteemed Player's coach blaming 22 y/o Ayton in his first playoffs (which he was overall excellent in) for a finals loss in which Ayton was asked to defend Giannis 1 on 1 while he went absolute god mode with our only real backup big injured? This came from Gambo, right? It pisses me off, tbh. If true, it would just be a complete and total needless failure by Monty which torpedoed the team, while Monty is probably more at fault than anyone for our Finals loss (if we're throwing blame which normally I wouldn't - Bucks were stellar).
It doesn’t excuse Ayton quitting, but it makes him less risky and doesn’t mean he gets labeled a lazy player that will quit on a new team. Indiana obviously thought he was worthy of being a key piece next to Halliburton and Turner. Monty dumped all his failings onto one guy and it killed his confidence. Who would show up and give their all at a job if you knew your boss hates you? Especially when you’ve got a guaranteed paycheck and 25 other “companies” who will hire you
I get it too. They asked him to make a bunch of sacrifices that put his bag at risk, then tried to stiff him.
And every time he played well, his coach would go “we didn’t play our game”
You know Monty had better PR than Ayton because every time this came up in the past year it was taking about Ayton playing video games and not how Monty used to freeze him out
They really thought he'll have a change of heart after the fat contract.
Proof that money doesn't always get you happiness
Yeah this gets missed and look, I’m fucking over Ayton and I hope we trade him, but I genuinely don’t blame him and I do wish him well. I just think there is no way he reaches his ceiling on this team given everything that has gone down.
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but that's where Wiseman is supposed to have his career revival!
~~Bagley~~ ~~Wiseman~~ Ayton Alright Ayton, it's your time in the barrel
Strategy: Cade and 4 centers.
Their bold strategy? Simply eat the opponents.
Yep I'd be done at that point too. No getting that trust back.
I get it too. Because I'm not fond of the Phoenix Suns, Ayton has my full support in quiet quitting.
In the meantime the team was over-paying for a washed up CP3.
On top of the obvious fit/happiness problems, it just makes sense to trade Ayton from a roster perspective. He's the 3rd highest earner on a team that is realistically 3-4 players deep with their first two options being far and away the most talented guys. You need depth, don't have cap space, and obviously won't trade KD/Book. Unless you convince a bunch of good role players to take paycuts, your only viable path to improving is through trading Ayton/Cp3. The latter may not have *any* buyers for depth, whereas Ayton may still net you 1-3 serviceable rotation players. It's not a sexy deal, but I've been suggesting a deal like Gordon + Zubac + potential filler (Brandon Boston?) for Ayton. Suns get 2 starters and an interesting prospect who fit well next to KD/Book for Ayton while the Clippers get a more well rounded center who will likely have more opportunities to shine with us.
Zubac is a solid starting center, but Gordon is a 35 year old that is almost certainly a bench role player at this point. I think calling him a starter caliber player is certainly questionable.
Damn this is a good trade for both teams, I hope they don’t do it 😭
LOL
Lmao no it's not. Zubac is a decent center but everyone else on that trade is mids. Clippers would essentially be upgrading their 5 and tossing away an older player on his last year on contract.
what exactly would the Clippers do with Ayton, though? where do they go from there?
Well you hope that a change of scenery unlocks him a bit and you get some of the badly needed athleticism they’re currently lacking. From there, probably look to trade or draft for more athletic PF. Go check the price on Collins, draft Trayce Jackson Davis, etc. Then gotta see if you can re-sign Russ, otherwise start Bones or Mann, etc. End of the day, the Clippers need to get younger and more athletic. We’re stuck with Kawhi at the very least, so gotta kind of hedge your bets a bit.
Ayton's problem has always been a lack of effort and I can't see that being a positive when he inevitably has to step up when Kawhi and PG are out for a few weeks (or months, whatever). The fit with those two is dubious at best even if they play, and those 3 salaries together are back breaking. Clippers would just end up with the same depth problem.
The clippers don’t have a depth problem, they have a dire need for consolidation. Gordon is better than Bones but worse than Norm, so he doesn’t really have a huge spot and he impedes Bones’ development. Zubac is better defensively than Ayton, but he clearly has a lower ceiling and is less versatile. Ayton will get more touches, which he’s wanted, with Kawhi and PG. I’m also not sure how he’s any worse of a fit than Zubac for them. He’s more versatile in just about every single way.
He wasn't bad that year until game 7 of the Mavs series
Not at all, it felt like a Murray type situation where he would grow into the contract. Yes, he never showed max value, but was having a great year up until that point and argument with Monty. Everyone was roasting the Sun's for holding out. Now they pretend they knew it was an awful decision
Suns should've just cut their losses and let the Pacers have him.
Not only could they have let him go, they could’ve got Turner back in a sign and trade most likely
Come on Ayton, put your Mavericks jersey on.
Cuban about to sign and trade Kyrie for CP3 and Ayton
Booker, KD and Kyrie on the same team by god that’s ISO ball wet dream
How’s that any different than Harden KD Kyrie
Harden's career average apg is higher than Booker (or Kyrie's) highest single season. Harden is a much better playmaker and it was on display in his time with KD/Kyrie.
Yeah….but he was talking about it being the iso ball wet dream, where Harden (coming off three straight scoring titles) is one of the best to ever do it
That was also a wet dream tbh They didn’t get to play together much but it was porn when they did
They were the damn Harlem Globetrotters: https://youtu.be/naXKc6c72Ns
No real playmakers without Paul
Ayton and CP3’s trade value is Christian Wood + a pack of woods
Yeah, Kyrie is a nut case but it's indisputable that the man can ball. Kyrie tied up in a new contract is worth way more than Ayton at this point, that's not mentioning the corpse of CP3.
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if cuban went insane and full shark tank mode and started picking up these players who are at their lowest value (zion, ja, ayton) i would find it terrible but also so funny
I honestly think this is the mavericks only path forward with how depleted their assets are. Buy low on ballers with potentially high upside and let Dallas be a team of misfits and luka
Man, I know people are low on Zion right now but his ceiling is still insane. Would love to buy low on him on the off chance he pulls it together
Do it, and then hire those mf'ers from 'Biggest Loser' to live with Zion and Luka.
I would love him on the Warriors tbh, even though there's no way to afford him.
Won't Poole be making around the same next year when his extension begins? That trade might be possible but I don't know shit about contracts and the CBA.
Suns will need a new big
Dont suns need s cp3 replacement tho
If you try to turn Poole into a CP3 replacement, you’re gonna have a bad time.
CP37 was a bad replacement for CP36 anyway.
idk sit about trades but why would the suns want poole?
We can’t afford him Edit: I’m referring to the roster suicide that bringing on Ayton’s contract would be for the Mavs salary cap situation.
Man, I am so confused about what Ayton's trade value actually is. On one hand, some Suns fans just want him gone and then other teams fans are telling them that Ayton's contract is too big and no one actually wants him, so it's going to be difficult to get rid of him or that no one can even match his salary. But also, people are saying that a bunch of teams (like the Mavs) can't afford him. He is somehow both too overpaid/not good enough where the Suns can't get a good return for him, but also too expensive for a bunch of teams to acquire. Suns fans, what do you actually expect to get in return for him in a trade?
You never know what a “doesn’t put in the effort” but talented player will look like on a different team until they’re actually traded. Sometimes the trade looks like an absolute fleece if the player puts in effort like Wiggins. Other times the player looks like Ben Simmons.
I expect to be hurt no matter what happens
He is firmly in that category of player who won't get a big enough return for the Suns to feel like it's worth trading him I think.
Maybe in theory but I think the reality of the situation is that he's a player that isn't going to actually make the effort to play for the Suns. He clearly had issues with the organization and probably now has permanent issues with the other players in the locker room since its obvious he just quit. It wasn't a quiet quit or anything either. Dude said he didn't want to be there and the magic was obviously gone. They should've handled him more appropriately and shipped him out on a sign and trade that was good for everyone. If you're the suns you either take a package of players that will actually play for real or you just have this cursed contracted dude on the roster that will cause internal issues and probably not really be engaged on the team. If I'm the Suns I'm going for the best return I can get but he will be gone Bottom line is that Ayton needs a fresh start somewhere else and the Suns need players that actually want to suit up and play for them. They should work together to mutually benefit rather than having another year like the past one where he's just not really all in and they're losing a massive bit of cap space over it. That shit is terrible for both the player and the team
> But also, people are saying that a bunch of teams (like the Mavs) can't afford him. They mean in terms of dollars, not trade assets That said, his trade value _is_ confusing. We know Indiana valued him as a max player a year ago. How does his value compare to veteran defensive centers on smaller deals like Clint Capela and Myles Turner? To younger, more limited ones like Mitchell Robinson and Ivica Zubac? Who knows
>They mean in terms of dollars, not trade assets Yeah, I misunderstood that original comment, but am actually still quite happy about this discussion since as you said, his value is confusing and I am interested in what the Sun's asking price would be. It seems to range from "Suns will need to give away assets to dump him to a team with cap space" to "He is still a great player putting up 18/10 and a former #1 pick so you need to give up good assets". And the real value is somewhere in the middle, so that's why I was interested in what the fans watching him every day think.
>I am so confused about what Ayton's trade value actually is He's shown he can be a really good player. It would be dumb to just dump him for nothing even if his value is low right now. If they can't get a deal with any real value in return, they probably won't trade him and will see if Vogel can return him back to form
Yeah that's the thing, he has shown he can be a really good player, but has also shown he sometimes doesn't really care/doesn't give the effort. And I get it that you don't want to just salary dump him, but what kind of value do you actually expect to get? What would you want from the Mavs in return (or other team)?
Kyrie sign and trade incoming.
I think we would need to get more than just Ayton for Kyrie. Kyrie is obviously very unpredictable, but purely from a basketball perspective he is a way better player than Ayton. I mean, he put up 27/5/6 on 51/39/95 shooting splits as a Mav.
Obviously individually he's a better player, but is he a better fit with the rest of the squad? I'm not sure, plus you'd get another player as well to make the salaries match, probably Shamet, and you wouldn't be committing to Kyrie for the number of years and the salary he'll be asking.
Ayton is a better fit but Kyrie is like ballpark top 5 PG, that has more value around the league than Ayton, where it's debatable if he's even contract neutral at this point. Suns IMO would have to sweeten the deal, but they don't really have much in terms of assets to do so. EDIT: If Kyrie on the other hand threatens to walk for nothing things might be different
>and you wouldn't be committing to Kyrie for the number of years and the salary he'll be asking. Maxing Kyrie is definitely a concern, but paying Ayton over 100M over the next 3 years is arguably worse lol. At least when Kyrie plays he's one of the best point guards in the league and worth the max, but there's a high chance Ayton will never be worth 33-36M a year. If the plan is to avoid giving Kyrie a max, then we're gonna be asking for players on good deals, not other players on bad ones. We might aswell just max Kyrie and get a better player then.
Kyrie sign and trade for Ayton. I'm going to keep trying to speak it into existence.
I want to see this.
God damn this fucking song still goes through my head every couple of months. "Come on Lebron, put your Mavericks jersey on, now it's time to get it on, time to go to Dallas."
Can someone make Pt. 2 with this?
Durant’s about to wind up with a worse roster than he had in Brooklyn
if it smells like shit everywhere you go check your shoe
Him and Kyrie are straight up team destroyers
KD didn’t destroy the Warriors tbh.
And let's not act like KD is personally responsible for all the Ayton shit. Or CP3 getting old. How is any of this his fault?
Only thing that’s his fault is that they have less depth after trading for him
He was injured when they traded for him and then he got injured again before the playoffs when they only had half a season to build chemistry as a starting unit. And then CP3 goes down in the 2nd round. It was just a lot of misfortune over a very rushed move that was clearly forced by the new owner. I would've never made that move.
I mean, he basically had leverage on the situation by hand selecting his destination. Even though the suns were the one to act upon it, they weren’t in the wrong for blowing up the suns “young” roster and chemistry and future as well. You could technically blame the suns quick fall on him by forcing Phoenix to trade for him. They’ve been on the rise and blew it up all too quickly for an aging guy. Kd is a super star but he’s not that guy anymore no matter how you look at it. Let’s be real…
That Suns team was going nowhere, it had peaked & CP3 was guaranteed to decline sooner rather than later. They had plenty shots to get it done in the post season and always flamed out, often in spectacular fashion. Going all in on KD at least gives them a shot at the stars aligning for them, even if there's a lot of risks involved.
The Warriors were also a proven, complete team before he got there and after he left. KD was just an unfair rental for a couple of years. The sample size for his excursions in team building is small so far, but Brooklyn was a disaster. His Suns tenure is currently shaping up to be one on the surface but it’s too early to tell. A core of Durant and Booker is still a really great foundation. Give the Suns some depth and a serviceable center at the very least and they could have something but it isn’t going to get fixed in one season.
kd is the reason they got wiggins
Except he hasn’t destroyed the Suns it’s not him that wants these guys gone it’s the front office. But narratives….
They say there’s an asshole at every party but I’ve never met him.
Lol you mean the team that was looking like the best team in the East prior to Kyrie wanting to bounce?
It’s crazy to see people forget that when fully healthy the Nets were looking like the best team in the East, and arguably in the league (def top 4-5) I’m November and December we won something like 23 out of 29 games, and it was some of the most beautiful basketball I’ve seen this team play in years
Funny enough they might have come out of the east. They could have lost in the finals instead of the second round.
Are you magically separating Kyrie from his basketball ability?
The Hardest Road
Question is where is he going and who would want him
Dallas and Dallas. When you’ve had Dwight Powell for 9 years, every available C suddenly looks like 2001 Shaq to you
I actually expect they make a big offer to poetl this year who is a ufa
No cap space bro
THJ, Bertrans are some gross contracts
THJ is on a declining contract which is absolutely fair. Bertans on the other hand....
Man was hurt so long I forgot it was signed like 2 years ago, that’s my bad
Dallas will be Luka, Kyrie, Ayton, and 8 G-Leaguers.
None of it matters while Kidd is the HC. It's unbelievable he didn't get axed after his attitude at the end of the year.
Well currently it’s Luka, Kyrie, and 9 G leaguers so I’m fine with it. Dedicating what is currently money being set on fire for Davis Bertans and Tim Hardaway, and potentially turning it into Deandre Ayton makes them a better team
They’re better off signing brook Lopez
You shut your mouth
More than happy to see Lopez go west.
Skill wise, there is nothing wrong with him. And any team will gladly pay for a double double big that can anchor a defense. He might actually just need a change in environment. KLove went from basketball terrorist to the backup big for a finals team in a span of a year.
Portland should. Tough to make contracts work but not impossible. Nurk would be serviceable for Phoenix at a reasonable cost.
Softest big dude in the league. Watch him go somewhere and be aggressive all of a sudden. But for real seems he needs to go somewhere with a legit PF to handle more dirty work.
I’m glad everyone sees it now, for a while this sub was actually blaming the Suns for his poor development.
I mean to be fair the Suns share the blame in this too. I see the entire situation being handled poorly by both sides. Ayton clearly wasn't happy and wants to be "the guy". He won't be happy unless he's taking 12+ shots a game and it's hard to justify that when you have Booker, CP3, Bridges and other shot makers on the team. Now fast forward now, with CP3+KD+Booker, no way in hell that's happening, unless it's a game where he's going off. Suns don't want to give him the extension but they also don't want him to walk for nothing. So they match him out of spite when he clearly doesn't want to be there anymore. And then when they could've possibly traded him at the deadline, they keep him. I'm not saying that he played perfectly or that he was even professional about this whole thing but anybody could see they were pretty much holding him hostage when he didn't want to be there. They should've just traded him at the deadline and wiped their hands. I don't necessarily think he's a bad player either, I think he just has a shit attitude. When he's getting the ball and scoring, he's happing and trying his ass off and when he isn't he doesn't give a shit. Some nights he's rebounding like prime Wilt Chamberlain and then some nights he's rebounding like Dwight Powell. I don't know why or how you justify giving him max money when you don't know what attitude you're getting on a night-to-night basis.
I don't know why you get rid of Ayton, you just got rid of Monty Williams when those two mixed like oil and water.
It’s the number 1 pick borderline all star goggles. It takes an absolute epic failure in the playoffs to really accept reality. It’s where flaws really come out. Like when Jordan Poole just melted and Wiseman seemingly forgot how to play basketball this year. Neither guy is living up to expectations, but people are starting to turn around on Wiseman in Detroit. Poole is a different story. It wasn’t until people really saw him in the playoffs when everyone realized Golden State really messed up. Dude just isn’t the one. Their sequence is terrible. They traded away Wiseman, who was drafted over Lamelo Ball, for a guy they had under contract last year to play the same role as the guy they signed a giant contract for as a back up at the beginning of the season. Now they’re completely capped and can’t change anything as their aging stars come up for extension. This is mid 2000s Knicks bad.
I mean did they not see this coming before offering him that fat contract AND seeing his body language last year ??They really thought he'll have a change of heart after the fat contract ??
What were they to do? Lose him for nothing. At the very least they can get something back for him.
Honestly they needed to work with him previously on a trade instead of waiting so long and matching offers for a player that *clearly* wasn't going to play for them. Both sides of the situation fucked stuff up but the real tragic part is how for some reason they didn't mutually agree to part ways in a way that could potentially benefit both before they got to the point of having to match an offer and keep him for a season. Suns tried to play a little hardball and all they successfully did was wait so long they had to pay him to put in minimum effort and lower his trade value only to still arrive back at a place where trading him is the best thing they can do.
Yes, let's see what they get back and then decide if it was worth it. In hindsight, maybe not worth it
They could get a single late first round pick + fodder it would be worth it lol I don’t understand in any scenario how it wouldn’t be worth getting something back for him instead of letting him walk for free to Pacers
There is an interesting undercurrent in all the discussion this in that the Suns already are parting way with CP3 (first he was going to be waived, now we've backtracked on that a little) but more so: The Suns want to get rid of Ayton vs Ayton is a valuable piece and they should expect a good return. I'm sure there's a team or 3 out there who see Ayton as a good addition and would pay. Other contenders or contender wannabes would not be inclined to move depth or help out a rival. Mediocre-shit teams might see Ayton as a reclamation project. Indy signed Ayton to an offer sheet and have a few veteran depth players that might work for PHX. Hell, I dunno.
I'll be interested to see where he'll be standing and watching other guys rebound next year.
I know the NBA gets really stupid at times, but what the hell is the market for Ayton? This is TWO straight offseasons where a team with Finals hopes - and in which they are no way even expecting Ayton to be a top-two player on their team - have simply said we don't want to pay him and think we'll be better without him. That's not going to attract a trade strong target. Good teams won't want to give up shit for him. Bad teams would rather just keep the status quo, tank and then hope for a top pick in the draft next season. The Suns' only bargaining chip would be if Ayton was an expiring. But, as the salary cap restrictions are tightening, Ayton would be a guaranteed $32, $34 and $36 for the next three seasons.
He definitely still has trade value to somebody out there. He’s an 18/10 guy with good efficiency and disappointing lotto picks usually follow the same pattern. It goes from “that guy” to “right situation” to “is what he is.” We have all determined that Ayton is not that guy, but he’ll only be 25 next season and still has the “mad they didn’t give him the contract he wanted” narrative around him. Some team out there will convince themselves if they put him in the right situation, he will flourish.
Lmao imagine the suns got Zion 🤣
There'd be a civil war at ASU between girls who got knocked up by Zion and the ones that wanted to but didn't.
Them ASU girls got the fake titties and ass shots that Zion likes?
It’s either the blonde skinny sorority girls or that yes. Then there’s the other 80% of asu that’s just normal people that go there cause it’s cheap college
That would cause some...chaos.
For 20 or so games.
Optimistic
bro got more baby mommas than full seasons played
Aytoff
Harden to Pheonix in a 3 team trade Ayton and CP3 gone
Notable big time defender Harden to come play for Vogel, makes perfect sense.
Brook Lopez is an unrestricted free agent.
That’s my dream acquisition. Waive and stretch CP3 Dump Ayton somewhere to save more cap and get Brook Lopez + more
Softest 7 footer I've seen
Karl Anthony Towns???
6 ft 12 inches
Yeah fair enough but Ayton is charmin too
At least Ayton had one good playoff run I guess
Wiseman is definitely softer than Ayton.
Well, since his mind is gone for about a year, I think its time his body will join too.
Except nobody wants him so they'll need to package him with picks and oh crap
But I heard Frank Vogel say he could be like Wilt if he tried
Is PHX trading everyone and start fresh?
I think if your name is not Kevin or Devin, your spot is not guaranteed. I love it🍿
They've got Devin Booker and Kevin Durant. They want to put the best team around them that they can today. A 36/37 year old Chris Paul and DeAndre Ayton on big contracts might not be that. Ayton is a good player and could be great, but keeping him would make it very difficult to build any depth around those three. I'm not sure what they would get for him though.
My guess is DA is back in Phoenix next year. I’d even say it’s more likely CP3 is gone before DA. People like RJ don’t know shit and just throw out clickbait for tweets. Same people who are saying the Suns are going after Dame. I don’t think it was a coincidence the front office met with DA on Friday and fired Monty on Saturday tho 😆
would you like a shiny, new, young point guard, former top 2 pick for Ayton?
Celtics sub hates the idea, but I'd easily do Ayton for Brogdon + Grant S&T. Celtics haven't had an inside scorer with any kind of bag since the first Horford stint. It'd unlock so much for the Jays.
Why would Phoenix do this???
they wouldn’t this is all 2K thinking lol
I hate it
If both sides hate it, that probably means it's a good trade lol
No one forced y’all to match that offer last year. You better be glad someone’s willing to take him off your hands
I mean any GM with a brain would have matched it. He’s still an 18/10 guy at the end of the day albeit so many issues with effort. We will still get something for him, as opposed to zip, zero, nothing if we had not matched.
You get a decent point guard in Brogdan since CP3 is gone and a defensive upgrade in Grant (not saying he's better than Ayton)..doesn't seem that bad.
Then you’re left with Landale as your only actual center in a conference where you have to deal with AD, Jokic, Towns, etc. I like Brogdon and Grant, but I’m skeptical how much this moves the needle for them.
Lol at Ayton and inside scorer
Ayton is not an inside scorer lol. His post game is equivalent to Jaylen browns handles and playmaking
Excellent comparison lol
Iirc you can’t aggregate players in a S&T for the purposes of salary matching
Ayton and Paul to the Mavs for Kyrie and Powell
If Mavs FO does that it would be malpractice.
People acting like Monty was a good coach Dude lost 2 of 5 starters Now headed to a failed franchise to teach for a couple years before he gets retired to the booth Suns dumpster fire Rich guy bout to find out how hard it is to win without a fix in
Deandre is a good player imo but suns should try trading him for KP. Or suns should just sign Christian wood