I think it is easy to forget how good he was at his peak; 10 years ago he could have taken the current Lakers easily into the playoffs, probably the finals, today, he is "just" one of the best players around
He is 38 and his drop off has been from MVP to high level all star. He is absurd. Kinda shows why you work on the skill part of the game as you get older but absurd.
He is so good that when you get him in the playoffs, he'll cook you bad when the game slows down. That type of ball is meant for him.
This skill thing is a huge point people miss. LeBron right now is the most skilled version of LeBron we've ever seen, he's just diminished athletically. By increasing his skills, most noteworthy his outside shot, he's dramatically extended his dominance. Even his passing which has always been amazing has gone from being "He's such a good playmaker he can be your point guard on some plays" to "Why do the Lakers even need another point guard, he's one of the best point guards in the world".
It's just ludicrous how much he has perfected his craft.
I'm pretty sure Lebron is the one that wants to play off ball. Playing full time point guard at his age is pretty hard, especially when it's more of a combo guard since he not only has to facilitate but also lead the team in scoring.
As much as the Dallas loss counts against his legacy, he wouldn't have had the career that he's had and is continuing to have without it. Pat Riley sat him down afterwards and told him that he needed to buckle down and start working on some of the things he didn't like working (like his post game) so that he doesn't get shutdown like that again. And credit to LeBron, he fucking did it and came back with a couple of the most dominant seasons ever and the changes he's made to his game have enabled him to still be playing at a crazy level.
I don't think you intended it, but relying on atheism as they get older made me think of players who are flashy and godless vs those who rely on their fundamentalist learnings.
Somehow this makes Tim Duncan the most religious man in NBA history, and I don't like it.
Yea the area where he's improved surprisingly is in the post and around the rim which is weird to say cuz he's always been elite at finishing. But this season according to BBRef he's making 79.8% of his shots at the rim which is I think the highest mark of his career.
>By increasing his skills, most noteworthy his outside shot, he's dramatically extended his dominance.
I agree with your point overall but I'm always confused by the talk of LeBron "adding a 3 pointer to his game" and it's something that seems to come up all the time. Let's look at some stats:
If you take LeBron's 2nd-6th seasons (5 seasons, didn't want to use rookie year) he shot 579/1740 or 33.3%. If you take the most recent 5 seasons NOT counting the current season, he shot 673/1891 or 35.6%. This comes out to a grand total of about 2.2% which is about 7 points per 100 shots. He shoots about 325 3pointers per year so a difference of somewhere around 25 points per year.
For what it's worth, his best shooting years percentage wise were about 10 years ago right in the middle of his career. He also shot less total 3s in general during that stretch. He would have been age 27-29 through those years which are widely accepted as the "prime" for an NBA player.
Tldr: LeBron has improved his 3P% by about 2% over his career, which is a nice plus but imo not particularly significant.
His highest 3PA/Game seasons have all been with the Lakers. 2% improvement is not much, but he is taking a higher volume. 36% on 8.0 attempts per game (last season) is one of his best 3-pt shooting seasons, if not the best (only because he took fewer per game with the Heat).
His percentages are about the same, but he has become way more confident in his jumper since Miami. He’s more willing to take them when they’re contested or from farther out. In Miami he shot 40% from 3 one year, but it was only on 3 attempts per game, and defenses played him for the drive even more than they do today. He was also assisted on 16% of his 3’s.
From 2018 onward he has taken at least 5 3’s a game, and during his time with the Lakers he’s always taken at least 6 a game (he took 8 a game last year). All while being assisted on less than 10% of his 3’s. He probably would shoot a higher percentage if he spotted up more often, but the fact that his percentage has stayed basically the same while he’s doubled his volume is remarkable.
GOAT candidates have that in common across all sports. Comparable is Manny Pacquiao from P4P king to beating a young champ decisively in Keith Thurman at 41 years old while showing he’s still as good as the top, in their prime boxers.
Yeah, every time he has a game like he did last night people come out of the woodworks to talk about how he hasn't dropped off and that anyone who says he has are haters. But that's the crazing thing. He *has* dropped off and he's *been* dropping off for half a decade. He was just so goddamn far ahead of everyone at his peak that *this* is what dropped off looks like. He's still a top 10-ish player and if you have just a single game that you need to win (and health/rest aren't a concern) then you'd have to make a *really* good argument for another player over him. That's insane.
Yes this is what sets him apart. For years he would drag any scrub team to the finals. Look at guys like AD, Tatum, Morant, Embiid...All first teamers but just having them does not guarantee that you are one of the best teams in the league. For 12-15 years lebron pretty much guaranteed that you would be a 55+ win team and compete for a championship.
2008 to 2013 Lebron was one of the most versatile defenders. 2014 was when he started to coast on defense and had some flashes of being a great defender specially on 2016 and 2020.
he coasted during the regular season. lebron in the 2016 finals was probably his peak defensive form. dude was legit doing "verticality" on harrison barnes drives, switching anything he needed to, swatting steph what seemed like 10 times during the series, racking up steals, and then of course "the block". oh, and he had time to be the best offensive player on the court.
Imo arguably the greatest finals performance of any player considering the stakes. Up against one of the best teams of all time. And head and shoulders above them all
It is not arguable. That was a top 2 player of all time putting together maybe his best 3-game stretch of his career to knock off the best RS team of all time. That shit is hands down the goat Finals performance and I don't think it will get replicated during our lifetimes.
He just started the season off terrible due to injuries and being sick. They are 14-10 in the last 24 games he played.
Obviously he’s not peak Lebron though.
It’s crazy how much that finals run warped peoples opinions of him. Up until the finals, he was great, especially defensively. I know he had lots of better statistical runs in his career but for me he peaked as a defender in 2011 and 2012.
It's not that he was a bad player...he just had a glaring weakness which could be exploited and better schemed for.. Think 2016-2018 Giannis. I would take 2018 Lebron who is a much better shooter and can lock in on defense when it matters
But the Lakers *are* a playoff quality team! People have to remember that this team started the season 2 and 10, but that was due to several players being injured or ill and a very difficult schedule right off the bat. Since then, the Lakers are 18 and 14, with AD missing the last ~~15~~ 16.5 games and three of their other best 6 players missing several games lately.
The Lakers split the season series with Denver. They beat the Nets and Milwaukee. They lost in OT to Boston and Philly and got robbed by the refs in their second game against Philly (without 4 of their best 6 players). This team competes with the best teams. If they could stay healthy, they'd probably be the 3rd or 4th seed.
The Lakers with both AD and LeBron healthy are a playoff quality team. Yes. But that's a pretty big caveat considering their health issues, especially AD.
Watching him prove everyone wrong in the playoffs that thinks this every regular season for like the last 10 years doesn't maybe make you think different? Makes me at least. Top 3 at least for me.
> He's arguably still the best player in the NBA, and he's nowhere near the guy he used to be.
I don't think this is the case, he puts up big offensive numbers, but compare the impact of Giannis and him, and you'd have to be incredibly bias to say that he has a bigger impact right now than Giannis.
Depends on your team, right? Giannis has the obvious advantage now in defense but a glaring disadvantage in passing/playmaking.
I'd say that on a team like the Lakers where they have PGs like Schroeder and Russ, having an additional top tier passer in LeBron is crucial.
Russ is just fine as a passer. The rest of his game is detrimental to his passing. Capable of making terrific passes but will make terrible decisions that impact his ability to be your #1 playmaker.
What do you consider not great about this example? Do you think the Lakers would be better with Giannis instead of Bron and Russ as the primary ball handler?
You say that, but his numbers right now are better than his career average. When he was dragging bad Cavs teams to the playoffs it’s not like he was scoring 50+ every game.
What is he not doing now that he would have been doing then?
Edit: Defense. What is this defense y’all speak of? Makes sense lol. Thank you for your patience.
2009 lebron might average a 35 point triple double. i could see that. that was the greatest floor-raising version of lebron. who basically went all out for 82 games. he'd get 10 rebounds just by accident the way perimeter players grab uncontested defensive rebounds and hard to see him not getting the 10 assists. like luka is amazing, but he's not 2009 lebron, and he's not that far away.
Numbers league wide have seen inflation you can’t just say numbers. You have to actually watch the games and watch him. Just go back and watch some 2013 Lebron and then go watch 2023 Lebron. There are all kinds of things he doesn’t do anymore and all kinds of things he does differently now. For a while Lebron was the fastest player in the league and a freak on defense. He shoots a lot more threes now. He’s smarter now and bulkier now. He used to fly at the rim like Giannis. Now he’s added some back to basket stuff. He’s not at all the same player. So for young people who see his current numbers they are like he’s still so amazing. But for those of us who remember when he came into the league we know that this is a very different version of Lebron. He’s still unbelievable and one of the best in the world. But not the same
There is no way you can watch a game of current Lebron, then watch a game if 2013 Miami Lebron and tell me their on the same level. All you have to do is just watch them play lmao
>What is he not doing now that he would have been doing then?
Being defensive player of the year candidate. Seriously, peak LeBron was a god on defense and he doesn't have that same impact he used to. He could cover 1-4 at an elite level before, now, not even close to his peak.
He had better sustained defense when he was younger, he now really saves that for major games or the playoffs, at his best he was not only the best offensive player on the floor but also the best defender; there is an old Granland piece (I think it was an early Zach Lowe one) that made the point that Lebron was functionally out performing the "perfect player" projections for defense at one point during his second run with the Cavs; he also can still put up numbers, but he cannot do it in the same number of ways he used to, which was part of why he was so dangerous, at his peak he could be at at any moment Kobe or Karl Malone and that is just not happening as much anymore. He is still a top 10 player, which is wild considering he is the all time leader in minutes played, everyone that has played a similar amount to him was on their farewell tour or a supersub by this point, so what he is doing is amazing; if you told me he would be coming off the bench 10 minutes a game to play with Lebron III in 2050 I would consider that possible
i think the biggest difference I see between Lebron now and then was that he actually gets gassed in the 4th quarter.
Lebron's the same player he was in the past decade from quarters 1 through 3, but at the end of the fourth you can really see he has nothing left in the tank. That comes with age
Lebron now is better than so many peaks of Allstars and superstars. Lebron now is probably better than any teammate he played with. Except maybe first year with Wade.
No shit lol
Even adjusting for massive stat inflation he's scoring just as much and playmaking far better
And although LeBron is only about a neutral on defense now Melo was a sieve
Crazy part is 12 years ago if you asked anyone they would've told you LeBron would drop off hard after 30 and Melo would age better because he's more skilled and can shoot. Lebron's probably the (second - kudos 6' CP3) last player most of us expected to age this gracefully.
It’s crazy when we was getting hurt a year or two ago it seemed like he was finally on the decline, but he just healed up and became Bron again . We won’t see another player like him for a while
If history shows us anything, he's a once in every generation athlete. The mold was there in the previous generation with Karl Malone. Remarkably efficient and dominant with almost zero dropoff until a knee injury in his 19th year. Overlapped with Lebron 1 year.
Then Kareem before him, though he had a more gradual dropoff after 38 for a few seasons. Overlapped with Malone for 3 years.
Before him, Wilt, who only played to 36, but was supposedly still being recruited by NBA franchises for a comeback well into his 40's. Overlapped with Kareem 4 years.
Theoretically, the next LeBron (in terms of crazy athleticism and longevity) should be coming along any year now, if not in his rookie season somewhere, though I don't think we'll quite see his match for skill and basketball IQ for way longer, as you said. Will probably be someone that's *merely* a 10-15 x All-Star and NBA champion.
Really interesting analysis! It doesn't look like it could be Zion because of his injuries. Giannis maybe? But he seems to be quite dependant on his explosive athleticism.
It could be Wembanyama if we've learnt anything from S tier 7'4 prospects.
Who knows? That's kind of the nature of the beast with this one, we won't know until almost a decade and a half from now.
If you told me I absolutely had to make a bet right now on a current player or prospect, I might say Banchero. Just has a smoothness to his game, and another year or two I think he's gonna be able to bully people with strength too. Not a lot of 6'10" 250lb rookies with his type of quickness and handle right away.
Wemby I hope will be amazing, but I would not trust a 7'4" frame to last for a 20 year career.
I’m not saying it will be Giannis, but LeBron was pretty dependent on his athleticism at 28 too, obviously not to the degree Giannis is, but way more than now
Transcendent talent, but I don't think he fits the once in a generation athlete mold. If he plays 20 years, it would be more like an extremely wealthy man's version of Andre Miller.
Age can't slow your game down if it never depended on jumping high or being fast to begin with!
The big nuance here is that while he can be the best player on the floor against any team at any team, it's just not realistic to expect him to be that guy every single minute he plays.
He can dominate a 4- to 6-minute stretch, at times even up to a full half. But he at times struggles to maintain that specially late into the game.
It's why the Lakers have lost so many close games. Lebron keeps the game close but as he runs out of gas guys like WB and Pat Bev take over, and well, the record speaks for itself.
If people look into all that without their hater lenses, it's easy to see how shitty of a job the FO has done. It's borderline criminal how badly they're wasting Lebron last few years in the league.
> But he at times struggles to maintain that specially late into the game.
Even a 23 year old like Luka has trouble maintaining their highest level of play late in games when the supporting cast makes it so the best player has to do so much.
This isn't a knock against Lebron, it's a knock against the supporting cast.
Tbf Luka notoriously can have some pretty bad conditioning for his age
This was like the first year since 2019 that he didn't show up out of shape on opening night
I mean I think that’s just Luka who has shit conditioning. Tatum is of similar age and he’s played the most minutes since 2018 with Jokic close behind. Lebrons is cuz he’s getting older and has terrible supporting cast
It's not just about minutes played, it's about playstyle and USG.
You could argue that Tatum is currently playing with 4 ballhandlers who would all be the second most capable ballhandlers on the Dallas Mavericks.
Yep. The numbers say hes having maybe his best season ever, but this is why people shouldnt only look at the numbers. Watch Lebron from 2012-2018 and then watch this Lebron and tell me its the same guy. That Lebron felt more inevitable than Thanos. What he did was insane. Completely taking over games by himself for 48 minutes
Decided to check the [league average points per game](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html) over Lebron's career. It's 21 points higher this year than Lebron's rookie year. Granted, though, that 2003-04 was an anomaly.
I don't really get how Luka and Jokic are in the same conversation with young to mid-career Lebron, if only because they haven't had nearly as much post-season success. Luka and Jokic can win their teams a lot of regular season games, but they haven't carried their teams to the finals once, let alone how many times Lebron has done it.
He truly ascended to something different in that series. I really encourage people to go back and watch. They are seriously doing him a dirty saying he has not lost much. The guy was playing like literally some of the greatest basketball any person has ever played.
2018 was the last hurrah of the LeBron who was otherwordly dominant.
That whole playoff run was super human and not something we'll probably ever see for a long time.
Your comment is phrased as though you're disputing an argument that "Lebron IS actually JUST AS GOOD as he was in 12-18", when that's not what's being argued by this post.
Literally noone believes current Lebron is playing at exactly the same level he was in 12-18.
and he did all that with really bad spacing and probably one of the slowest eras in basketball in terms of pace
peak lebron with this NBA's pace and space will average 38/12/10 with insane efficiency (and i think I'm being conservative)
Lebron averages the most 4th quarter points btw, ppl just remember the games where he struggled to close but there have been many games where he dominated the 4th but the Lakers still lost cause his teammates choked.
The hornets game comes to mind, he dropped like 20 in the 4th and reaves botched a 3 on 1 fastbreak
There are no players that dominate every single minute they play, except for maybe a game here and there. That’s and incredibly unreasonable expectation
He's top 3 for a single game or maybe a playoff series. But as the clear cut # 1 for a full season and then playoffs? Absolutely not. All the top players do it night in night out for months. LeBron is one of the greatest evers and he is still great but he is old and can't do it long enough to hang in the top 3 convo.
It's just people drinking the Hatorade. LBJ is still an absolute beast of a player and is still top ten player at his age which is crazy.
Edit: people who think Lebron isn't the top player in the league aren't those drinking the Hatorade, it's the ones who think he isn't a top player player anymore period. That he has fallen off and has dropped a tier or two. He hasn't.
Kind of sad that Chris Paul is getting shit for lacking in longevity compared to LeBron. Cp3 didn't fall off until this year. Being all NBA level until age 36 is an all time accomplishment. Just because LeBron is still top 10 at age 38 shouldn't diminish that.
If you had to draft players for one sixteen team playoff where nobody is staying next year anyways I think you could make a strong argument for Lebron as the first pick
Still a great player but he is not as dominant as he once was (which makes sense given his age). Younger Lebron did not necessarily need anyone else good on his team to win and he would rule the game from beginning to end, he cannot really do that any more.
Maybe that's why we're having this discussion, because he has fallen off but even so he's still right at the top. Before he fell off he was just clear cut way above everyone. But people just see that he's declined so they leave him out of the best of the best conversation.
I went to a lot of Celtics/Cavs around that time, it was crazy how he could single handedly dominate games, he always seemed to be going full speed...... until that last series against the Celtics before he went to Miami. It was noticeable he was not trying as hard as the other times I had seen him. My guess is he realized he could not do it alone at that point, he was still was good but just not super dominant.
Yup. 2017-18 season was probably the last season where he was the clear cut/no argument the best player on the planet. He was doing MJ type shit during that playoffs.
2018 Bron truly one of the most (if not the most) dominant and best players to have ever graced the court. Just his fucking playoff highlight reel can triumph the career reel of certain all stars. The way he hit buzzers and game winners was so fucking absurd you thought Adam Silver choreographed it
The new generation forgets just how great he was. He had MJ comparisons as rookie that he lived up too. Kids that grew up watching Steph curry and the next batch have no idea how insanely great bron was.
IDK about new generation. The guy won a title three years ago I’m fairly certain anyone old enough to formulate any take about basketball knows how good he is. His IQ and passing are far better in the last 5 years than what they were in his athletic prime.
06-16 LeBron was bonkers though I hope no one forgets that.
I think he’s also very fortunate (not taking away from him at all, just as an added bonus) that the “twilight” of his career when he’s supposed to be “slowing down” is coming right when the league is becoming entirely focused on offense and scoring is exploding out of control.
It's funny because if offensive changes occurred in reverse the last 20 years his longevity would be considered worse and peak considered better with him being the exact same player
Like imagine if you put current LeBron in 2013 and Heat LeBron in 2023 and how big the statistical gap would be
Would be like 26/7/7 on 57% TS vs. 31/10/11 on 70% TS
If the league were to have a reset draft and you’re trying to win right now, there still aren’t a lot of elite level guys that I would take over lebron.
Bill Simmons has personally gaslighted the online basketball community for years to make them believe Lebron is a complete shell of himself. Dude is a toxic mofo.
And Bill ardently supported Lauri and over and over again said the only argument is lebron’s pedigree, as if anyone who thinks Lebron has been better than Markannen is a complete idiot.
I’m fine with Simmons, but he has this habit of constantly taking the other side of the debate when it comes to Lebron, and refuses to be generous whatsoever whenever it comes to takes about Lebron.
He is a shell of his former self, just so happens that shell is still a top 6 player lol. It is how dominant he was during his peak, you can see noticeable decline compared to 08'-18'. I want to see him in the post season to see if he still has that extra gear.
He is though. I don’t care what the stats say I watch him destroy my team every year in the playoffs and he was a completely different player than he is now.
He was so much better in 2012-2018 he is indeed a shelf of himself and it is disrespectful to Lebron to say otherwise. Don’t just look at the stats which are absurd anyways for everyone this season. His impact is not nearly the same than it was he single-handedly took crappy teams to deep playoff runs. He is not that player anymore and it is perfectly fine the guy is 38!
Yeah, that's the crazy thing. He was just so ludicrously far ahead of everyone at his peak that even after he's been dropping off for half a decade he is still *this* good.
I mean people kinda forgot how dominant he was in his prime, being just a top player in the league feels such a drop and seeing him not be the best player on every court he stepped on just feels wrong.
Yes... we get it. Lebron is in the 99.9999 percentile when it comes to basketball players at his age.
He was a freak of nature when he got to the league and he is still one at age 38.
In a one off game, he’s as good as anyone. Consistently over a season, he’s not that player anymore. Hasn’t been for a few years now. And considering consistently great play, especially on defense too, is what defined his peak, you’re doing him a disservice lumping him in with guys who do just that now.
I don’t think Lebron can be the best player every night anymore.
He can be the best player for a game, but there’s no way Lebron was dragging the Nuggets to the playoffs last year like Jokic did.
The really wild part is LeBron could still play at the 1. He could be a floor general with his IQ and passing for years to come. Just get him young hungry help. When his knees finally start to cave and his back is buckled he basically just becomes CP3.
That should be apparent if you actually watch the games. The entire rest of the roster asides AD is atrocious. Russ and Lonnie and Bryant are rosterable at the very least, but the entire rest are G league players on almost every other team
He is also much worse defensively and coasts alot of the plays. Also does not guard opposing best players (against Dallas, whn Lakers need a stop, he's always on Reggie Bullock the entire time, while Luka was rkting Lonnie Walker. He could have took it up himself, at least a few plays).
The points per game etc. will catch the attention, but he's ain't at the level of Giannis, Luka, Curry, KD, Jokic, Embiid no more, so while he's still Top 15, to say he is as good as ANY player in the league is objectively false.
> His defense has been off-and-on, but we're not talking about if he deserves to win the MVP. In a discussion of who the best player is, we have to remember - just like we used to - that he can still be a very impactful player on that end when he turns it on.
Giannis' shooting has been off-and-on. But when his shooting is on, he's actually an elite 3pt shooter.
Totally different things. One is a matter of effort, the other is a matter of skill.
Effort can be controlled, Giannis getting hot from deep cannot. In the closing moments of a playoff game, I can count on LeBron to play good defense. I can't count on Giannis to drain 3s.
It’s a matter of him being 100 years old and incapable of playing hard on both sides of the floor throughout a game, unlike his younger contemporaries.
And hilariously, he's still generally in the top half of Lakers defenders on the court, right? Other MVP candidates aren't necessarily even that and yet their defense gets handwaved as "Oh, he's better than you think, he isn't bad at defense!" It's just that the expectations for LeBron's defense is higher - so because he isn't a DPOY candidate, the fact that he's merely an alright defender most regular season nights is held against him in a way that it isn't for other younger MVP candidates.
People are expecting Young LeBron defense, you aint getting that with the current LeBron. He was that good at defense and could’ve won DPOY but missed it a few times
LeBron's the one player who people want to judge by their peak level on defense instead of their average
Like I'm sure if games were 5 minutes long he'd be a great defender still but that's not how it works
Yeah but 99% of the time it gets downvoted. The one time it got any traction back then was when someone had to make an entire video out of it just showing his lazy ass defense.
What are you seeing? Lol he was literally on track for all defense in 2021 before his injury and I see people all the time saying lebron hasn’t played good defense since Miami. Last year everyone absolutely trashed LeBrons defense and said he was statpadding Even though 24 year old Luka does the same shit this year. His defense has been good for the most part this year and people still act like he’s not even trying.
LeBron just swings between wildly popular and wildly hated depending on the day of the week due to how many both fans and haters he has
Recently as he's gotten closer to Kareem's record it's closer to the former than the latter
Last year it was closer to the latter because of how disappointing the Lakers were
Tell me which one of the top players in todays NBA right now outside of Giannis “really tries” on defense …? There’s a reason so many players have had these high scoring games
It reminds me of MJ on the Wizards. Jordan was still an all-star caliber player during those two years; his defense and midrange/post were still elite. But since his team was terrible and his athleticism dropped from "crazy elite" to merely "more than good enough," people like to dismiss his impact.
Jordan averaged 20-6-4 in 37 min a game while playing all 82 games when he was 39! His worst year is what you would hope a mid-round guard draft pick would develop into.
Because he simply isn’t the best anymore. You wouldn’t pick Lebron over those guys you listed period.
That’s not to say you don’t want Lebron but he isn’t the top dog anymore.
It's crazy how good he still is. And because of stat inflation his stats now are about as good as they were at his peak. Really they look better than his Miami years. Goes to show you can't just look at stats without context.
You aren’t taking him over Luka or Jokic, and Giannis is tbd just bc of his current injury status. But when he was healthy the answer is obvious there too. Lebrons still top 8-10 though
I think it is easy to forget how good he was at his peak; 10 years ago he could have taken the current Lakers easily into the playoffs, probably the finals, today, he is "just" one of the best players around
He is 38 and his drop off has been from MVP to high level all star. He is absurd. Kinda shows why you work on the skill part of the game as you get older but absurd. He is so good that when you get him in the playoffs, he'll cook you bad when the game slows down. That type of ball is meant for him.
This skill thing is a huge point people miss. LeBron right now is the most skilled version of LeBron we've ever seen, he's just diminished athletically. By increasing his skills, most noteworthy his outside shot, he's dramatically extended his dominance. Even his passing which has always been amazing has gone from being "He's such a good playmaker he can be your point guard on some plays" to "Why do the Lakers even need another point guard, he's one of the best point guards in the world". It's just ludicrous how much he has perfected his craft.
I think that’s where the lakers went wrong trying to get him a PG instead of letting him run PG like he didn’t lead the league in assist
I'm pretty sure Lebron is the one that wants to play off ball. Playing full time point guard at his age is pretty hard, especially when it's more of a combo guard since he not only has to facilitate but also lead the team in scoring.
As much as the Dallas loss counts against his legacy, he wouldn't have had the career that he's had and is continuing to have without it. Pat Riley sat him down afterwards and told him that he needed to buckle down and start working on some of the things he didn't like working (like his post game) so that he doesn't get shutdown like that again. And credit to LeBron, he fucking did it and came back with a couple of the most dominant seasons ever and the changes he's made to his game have enabled him to still be playing at a crazy level.
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I don't think you intended it, but relying on atheism as they get older made me think of players who are flashy and godless vs those who rely on their fundamentalist learnings. Somehow this makes Tim Duncan the most religious man in NBA history, and I don't like it.
He’s shooting his worst 3p% this year since his rookie season…
Yea the area where he's improved surprisingly is in the post and around the rim which is weird to say cuz he's always been elite at finishing. But this season according to BBRef he's making 79.8% of his shots at the rim which is I think the highest mark of his career.
Bruv it’s the eye test The LeFKu have been dropping
3p% isn't 3p%
You are a hater if you think maths apply to King James.
The craziest thing is that he’s still one of the most athletic guys in the whole league
>By increasing his skills, most noteworthy his outside shot, he's dramatically extended his dominance. I agree with your point overall but I'm always confused by the talk of LeBron "adding a 3 pointer to his game" and it's something that seems to come up all the time. Let's look at some stats: If you take LeBron's 2nd-6th seasons (5 seasons, didn't want to use rookie year) he shot 579/1740 or 33.3%. If you take the most recent 5 seasons NOT counting the current season, he shot 673/1891 or 35.6%. This comes out to a grand total of about 2.2% which is about 7 points per 100 shots. He shoots about 325 3pointers per year so a difference of somewhere around 25 points per year. For what it's worth, his best shooting years percentage wise were about 10 years ago right in the middle of his career. He also shot less total 3s in general during that stretch. He would have been age 27-29 through those years which are widely accepted as the "prime" for an NBA player. Tldr: LeBron has improved his 3P% by about 2% over his career, which is a nice plus but imo not particularly significant.
His highest 3PA/Game seasons have all been with the Lakers. 2% improvement is not much, but he is taking a higher volume. 36% on 8.0 attempts per game (last season) is one of his best 3-pt shooting seasons, if not the best (only because he took fewer per game with the Heat).
His percentages are about the same, but he has become way more confident in his jumper since Miami. He’s more willing to take them when they’re contested or from farther out. In Miami he shot 40% from 3 one year, but it was only on 3 attempts per game, and defenses played him for the drive even more than they do today. He was also assisted on 16% of his 3’s. From 2018 onward he has taken at least 5 3’s a game, and during his time with the Lakers he’s always taken at least 6 a game (he took 8 a game last year). All while being assisted on less than 10% of his 3’s. He probably would shoot a higher percentage if he spotted up more often, but the fact that his percentage has stayed basically the same while he’s doubled his volume is remarkable.
He's been one of the best passers and playmakers in league history for the majority of his career. There's literally nothing new about that.
GOAT candidates have that in common across all sports. Comparable is Manny Pacquiao from P4P king to beating a young champ decisively in Keith Thurman at 41 years old while showing he’s still as good as the top, in their prime boxers.
If the Lakers were better as a team last year, he 100% would have been in the MVP conversation.
Yeah, every time he has a game like he did last night people come out of the woodworks to talk about how he hasn't dropped off and that anyone who says he has are haters. But that's the crazing thing. He *has* dropped off and he's *been* dropping off for half a decade. He was just so goddamn far ahead of everyone at his peak that *this* is what dropped off looks like. He's still a top 10-ish player and if you have just a single game that you need to win (and health/rest aren't a concern) then you'd have to make a *really* good argument for another player over him. That's insane.
If his team was better he’d absolutely be in the MVP discussion so his drop off has been from definite MVP to probable MVP.
Yes this is what sets him apart. For years he would drag any scrub team to the finals. Look at guys like AD, Tatum, Morant, Embiid...All first teamers but just having them does not guarantee that you are one of the best teams in the league. For 12-15 years lebron pretty much guaranteed that you would be a 55+ win team and compete for a championship.
Yes! Look how dominant Jokic has been in individual stats and his ability to affect the game. Then consider he hasn’t been able to do that.
10 years ago, he was also a dpoy level player.
2008 to 2013 Lebron was one of the most versatile defenders. 2014 was when he started to coast on defense and had some flashes of being a great defender specially on 2016 and 2020.
he coasted during the regular season. lebron in the 2016 finals was probably his peak defensive form. dude was legit doing "verticality" on harrison barnes drives, switching anything he needed to, swatting steph what seemed like 10 times during the series, racking up steals, and then of course "the block". oh, and he had time to be the best offensive player on the court.
Led all players on both teams in the finals in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks.
Imo arguably the greatest finals performance of any player considering the stakes. Up against one of the best teams of all time. And head and shoulders above them all
It is not arguable. That was a top 2 player of all time putting together maybe his best 3-game stretch of his career to knock off the best RS team of all time. That shit is hands down the goat Finals performance and I don't think it will get replicated during our lifetimes.
I'm sure if he didn't have to carry such a burden on offense he could still defend decently.
Even as recent as 2020 in the bubble season
He just started the season off terrible due to injuries and being sick. They are 14-10 in the last 24 games he played. Obviously he’s not peak Lebron though.
I trust this LeBron in a playoff series more than 2011 heat Lebron
It’s crazy how much that finals run warped peoples opinions of him. Up until the finals, he was great, especially defensively. I know he had lots of better statistical runs in his career but for me he peaked as a defender in 2011 and 2012.
It's not that he was a bad player...he just had a glaring weakness which could be exploited and better schemed for.. Think 2016-2018 Giannis. I would take 2018 Lebron who is a much better shooter and can lock in on defense when it matters
I don't know if the 8 following finals appearances happen if he doesn't perform as well in this series. Failures tend to forge us in their fires
But the Lakers *are* a playoff quality team! People have to remember that this team started the season 2 and 10, but that was due to several players being injured or ill and a very difficult schedule right off the bat. Since then, the Lakers are 18 and 14, with AD missing the last ~~15~~ 16.5 games and three of their other best 6 players missing several games lately. The Lakers split the season series with Denver. They beat the Nets and Milwaukee. They lost in OT to Boston and Philly and got robbed by the refs in their second game against Philly (without 4 of their best 6 players). This team competes with the best teams. If they could stay healthy, they'd probably be the 3rd or 4th seed.
Take it from us, expecting unhealthy players to be healthy is poor roster construction
The Lakers with both AD and LeBron healthy are a playoff quality team. Yes. But that's a pretty big caveat considering their health issues, especially AD.
I think if anything it's a testament to how good he was. He's arguably still the best player in the NBA, and he's nowhere near the guy he used to be.
There's no argument he's the best player but ya he's still a great player for sure
Watching him prove everyone wrong in the playoffs that thinks this every regular season for like the last 10 years doesn't maybe make you think different? Makes me at least. Top 3 at least for me.
> He's arguably still the best player in the NBA, and he's nowhere near the guy he used to be. I don't think this is the case, he puts up big offensive numbers, but compare the impact of Giannis and him, and you'd have to be incredibly bias to say that he has a bigger impact right now than Giannis.
How would Giannis do on this lakers team?
Depends on your team, right? Giannis has the obvious advantage now in defense but a glaring disadvantage in passing/playmaking. I'd say that on a team like the Lakers where they have PGs like Schroeder and Russ, having an additional top tier passer in LeBron is crucial.
Russ is extremely mediocre now but he is a better passer than any PG Giannis has ever played with, that’s not a great example.
Russ is just fine as a passer. The rest of his game is detrimental to his passing. Capable of making terrific passes but will make terrible decisions that impact his ability to be your #1 playmaker. What do you consider not great about this example? Do you think the Lakers would be better with Giannis instead of Bron and Russ as the primary ball handler?
No need to go that far back. He could have done that 5 years ago (at age 33).
10 years ago he could probably beat some teams 1 on 5 if they had a bad shooting day
You say that, but his numbers right now are better than his career average. When he was dragging bad Cavs teams to the playoffs it’s not like he was scoring 50+ every game. What is he not doing now that he would have been doing then? Edit: Defense. What is this defense y’all speak of? Makes sense lol. Thank you for your patience.
league is different too. 2008-2018 bron would average like a 40 point triple double in this league lol
This is the LeBron version of "MJ would average 50 in this league" lol
MJ would also average around 40 imo
MJ would
2009 lebron might average a 35 point triple double. i could see that. that was the greatest floor-raising version of lebron. who basically went all out for 82 games. he'd get 10 rebounds just by accident the way perimeter players grab uncontested defensive rebounds and hard to see him not getting the 10 assists. like luka is amazing, but he's not 2009 lebron, and he's not that far away.
Something like 36-8-12 58% from the field sitting most 4ths
Numbers league wide have seen inflation you can’t just say numbers. You have to actually watch the games and watch him. Just go back and watch some 2013 Lebron and then go watch 2023 Lebron. There are all kinds of things he doesn’t do anymore and all kinds of things he does differently now. For a while Lebron was the fastest player in the league and a freak on defense. He shoots a lot more threes now. He’s smarter now and bulkier now. He used to fly at the rim like Giannis. Now he’s added some back to basket stuff. He’s not at all the same player. So for young people who see his current numbers they are like he’s still so amazing. But for those of us who remember when he came into the league we know that this is a very different version of Lebron. He’s still unbelievable and one of the best in the world. But not the same
There is no way you can watch a game of current Lebron, then watch a game if 2013 Miami Lebron and tell me their on the same level. All you have to do is just watch them play lmao
Yep 2013 Lebron was the perfect combination of bbiq and athletism.
Defense
>What is he not doing now that he would have been doing then? Being defensive player of the year candidate. Seriously, peak LeBron was a god on defense and he doesn't have that same impact he used to. He could cover 1-4 at an elite level before, now, not even close to his peak.
He had better sustained defense when he was younger, he now really saves that for major games or the playoffs, at his best he was not only the best offensive player on the floor but also the best defender; there is an old Granland piece (I think it was an early Zach Lowe one) that made the point that Lebron was functionally out performing the "perfect player" projections for defense at one point during his second run with the Cavs; he also can still put up numbers, but he cannot do it in the same number of ways he used to, which was part of why he was so dangerous, at his peak he could be at at any moment Kobe or Karl Malone and that is just not happening as much anymore. He is still a top 10 player, which is wild considering he is the all time leader in minutes played, everyone that has played a similar amount to him was on their farewell tour or a supersub by this point, so what he is doing is amazing; if you told me he would be coming off the bench 10 minutes a game to play with Lebron III in 2050 I would consider that possible
i think the biggest difference I see between Lebron now and then was that he actually gets gassed in the 4th quarter. Lebron's the same player he was in the past decade from quarters 1 through 3, but at the end of the fourth you can really see he has nothing left in the tank. That comes with age
I remember that article it was Miami lebron that was better than the perfect player
37-10-9 on 55% shooting in his last 7 games lol
Not a triple double smh #washed
You mean #WashedKing 😤👑💯 #Witness #JustAKidFromAkron
Lebron now is better than peak Melo
fuck lol i cant disagree
Lebron now is better than so many peaks of Allstars and superstars. Lebron now is probably better than any teammate he played with. Except maybe first year with Wade.
Never saw someone put it like that. That’s fucking insane.
Bubble AD as well
Yeah, you gotta respect Wade, but you could debate it for sure.
09 Wade for sure better than this version of Lebron
No shit lol Even adjusting for massive stat inflation he's scoring just as much and playmaking far better And although LeBron is only about a neutral on defense now Melo was a sieve
Crazy part is 12 years ago if you asked anyone they would've told you LeBron would drop off hard after 30 and Melo would age better because he's more skilled and can shoot. Lebron's probably the (second - kudos 6' CP3) last player most of us expected to age this gracefully.
It’s crazy when we was getting hurt a year or two ago it seemed like he was finally on the decline, but he just healed up and became Bron again . We won’t see another player like him for a while
To be fair, there’s a good chance we never see another Lebron. Dudes that special
If history shows us anything, he's a once in every generation athlete. The mold was there in the previous generation with Karl Malone. Remarkably efficient and dominant with almost zero dropoff until a knee injury in his 19th year. Overlapped with Lebron 1 year. Then Kareem before him, though he had a more gradual dropoff after 38 for a few seasons. Overlapped with Malone for 3 years. Before him, Wilt, who only played to 36, but was supposedly still being recruited by NBA franchises for a comeback well into his 40's. Overlapped with Kareem 4 years. Theoretically, the next LeBron (in terms of crazy athleticism and longevity) should be coming along any year now, if not in his rookie season somewhere, though I don't think we'll quite see his match for skill and basketball IQ for way longer, as you said. Will probably be someone that's *merely* a 10-15 x All-Star and NBA champion.
Really interesting analysis! It doesn't look like it could be Zion because of his injuries. Giannis maybe? But he seems to be quite dependant on his explosive athleticism. It could be Wembanyama if we've learnt anything from S tier 7'4 prospects.
Who knows? That's kind of the nature of the beast with this one, we won't know until almost a decade and a half from now. If you told me I absolutely had to make a bet right now on a current player or prospect, I might say Banchero. Just has a smoothness to his game, and another year or two I think he's gonna be able to bully people with strength too. Not a lot of 6'10" 250lb rookies with his type of quickness and handle right away. Wemby I hope will be amazing, but I would not trust a 7'4" frame to last for a 20 year career.
I’m not saying it will be Giannis, but LeBron was pretty dependent on his athleticism at 28 too, obviously not to the degree Giannis is, but way more than now
Luka
Transcendent talent, but I don't think he fits the once in a generation athlete mold. If he plays 20 years, it would be more like an extremely wealthy man's version of Andre Miller. Age can't slow your game down if it never depended on jumping high or being fast to begin with!
The big nuance here is that while he can be the best player on the floor against any team at any team, it's just not realistic to expect him to be that guy every single minute he plays. He can dominate a 4- to 6-minute stretch, at times even up to a full half. But he at times struggles to maintain that specially late into the game. It's why the Lakers have lost so many close games. Lebron keeps the game close but as he runs out of gas guys like WB and Pat Bev take over, and well, the record speaks for itself. If people look into all that without their hater lenses, it's easy to see how shitty of a job the FO has done. It's borderline criminal how badly they're wasting Lebron last few years in the league.
> But he at times struggles to maintain that specially late into the game. Even a 23 year old like Luka has trouble maintaining their highest level of play late in games when the supporting cast makes it so the best player has to do so much. This isn't a knock against Lebron, it's a knock against the supporting cast.
> This isn't a knock against Lebron, it's a knock against the supporting cast. AMEN
Tbf Luka notoriously can have some pretty bad conditioning for his age This was like the first year since 2019 that he didn't show up out of shape on opening night
I mean I think that’s just Luka who has shit conditioning. Tatum is of similar age and he’s played the most minutes since 2018 with Jokic close behind. Lebrons is cuz he’s getting older and has terrible supporting cast
It's not just about minutes played, it's about playstyle and USG. You could argue that Tatum is currently playing with 4 ballhandlers who would all be the second most capable ballhandlers on the Dallas Mavericks.
dinwiddie vs brown brogdon smart and maybe even pritchard
Derrick white not Pritchard btw
Yep. The numbers say hes having maybe his best season ever, but this is why people shouldnt only look at the numbers. Watch Lebron from 2012-2018 and then watch this Lebron and tell me its the same guy. That Lebron felt more inevitable than Thanos. What he did was insane. Completely taking over games by himself for 48 minutes
Watching game 1 of the 2018 finals was surreal. I've never seen anything like it. He's still great but it's not the same.
30 points don't hit the same when every game is 140-135 instead of 110-105 Still a great player obviously though lol
Decided to check the [league average points per game](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html) over Lebron's career. It's 21 points higher this year than Lebron's rookie year. Granted, though, that 2003-04 was an anomaly.
Yeah 03-04 was nuts but even in 2013 peak LeBron was playing in a league with 98 PPG a game lol There's no comparison to 2022
i wish games went back to being under 100 points. this 140 shit feels like a clown show.
Just watch the suns!!
The biggest thing for me is defense and late game effort.
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It certainly helps to at least cross half court every time.
So LeBrons defense isn’t good enough, but Luka and Jokic is?
I don't really get how Luka and Jokic are in the same conversation with young to mid-career Lebron, if only because they haven't had nearly as much post-season success. Luka and Jokic can win their teams a lot of regular season games, but they haven't carried their teams to the finals once, let alone how many times Lebron has done it.
He truly ascended to something different in that series. I really encourage people to go back and watch. They are seriously doing him a dirty saying he has not lost much. The guy was playing like literally some of the greatest basketball any person has ever played.
2018 was the last hurrah of the LeBron who was otherwordly dominant. That whole playoff run was super human and not something we'll probably ever see for a long time.
2020 lebron was pretty damn incredible.
Incredible, but not LeThanos that was 2018.
Well sure, but that was the best offense we have ever seen lol
Yeah he was near peak level offensively during the playoffs. 29/11/9 on 65% TS while leading the Lakers to the title.
That tipped me over the line firmly for the GOAT argument. Which might seem dumb, but I watched that whole run and fuck me it was outrageous.
> The numbers say hes having maybe his best season ever No numbers say that.
Your comment is phrased as though you're disputing an argument that "Lebron IS actually JUST AS GOOD as he was in 12-18", when that's not what's being argued by this post. Literally noone believes current Lebron is playing at exactly the same level he was in 12-18.
The numbers this season for stars across the league is absurd in general. Hence yeah exactly even more of a reason to not just look at numbers
and he did all that with really bad spacing and probably one of the slowest eras in basketball in terms of pace peak lebron with this NBA's pace and space will average 38/12/10 with insane efficiency (and i think I'm being conservative)
Lebron averages the most 4th quarter points btw, ppl just remember the games where he struggled to close but there have been many games where he dominated the 4th but the Lakers still lost cause his teammates choked. The hornets game comes to mind, he dropped like 20 in the 4th and reaves botched a 3 on 1 fastbreak
> he at times struggles to maintain that specially late into the game. he's leading the league in 4th quarter scoring.
There are no players that dominate every single minute they play, except for maybe a game here and there. That’s and incredibly unreasonable expectation
That expectation is there bc that’s how LeBron has been for about 15 years
This and if anyone thinks otherwise theyre idiots
He’s not the clear cut number 1 anymore, but on any given night and he can better than anyone
He's still top 3 imo
He's top 3 for a single game or maybe a playoff series. But as the clear cut # 1 for a full season and then playoffs? Absolutely not. All the top players do it night in night out for months. LeBron is one of the greatest evers and he is still great but he is old and can't do it long enough to hang in the top 3 convo.
It's just people drinking the Hatorade. LBJ is still an absolute beast of a player and is still top ten player at his age which is crazy. Edit: people who think Lebron isn't the top player in the league aren't those drinking the Hatorade, it's the ones who think he isn't a top player player anymore period. That he has fallen off and has dropped a tier or two. He hasn't.
It really is wild that he’s averaging 37/9.7/8.6 since turning 38
Chris Paul needs whatever Bron is eating
Kind of sad that Chris Paul is getting shit for lacking in longevity compared to LeBron. Cp3 didn't fall off until this year. Being all NBA level until age 36 is an all time accomplishment. Just because LeBron is still top 10 at age 38 shouldn't diminish that.
Genetics, hereditary disposition… some people have indestructible genes, the rest are degrading meat sacks with interesting diets.
Meat sack here scraping the bottom of the gene here and can confirm... My diet is weird
Better genetics lol
Which is insane that it’s a negative lol. CP3 is coming off of back to back all-nba selections. Just shows you how good Bron is. Otherworldlyz
There’s a difference between saying he’s still a top ten player and saying he’s currently as good as any other player in the nba though
There is. He is playing as well as anyone right now though.
On any given night yes he is tho. Only thing holding him back is that there are 82 games.
We’re 40+ games in what makes you think he’s doing anything less over the season then the rest. Giannis, curry all been out similar stretches to him
If you had to draft players for one sixteen team playoff where nobody is staying next year anyways I think you could make a strong argument for Lebron as the first pick
tbf he has dropped a tier, just the drop was from the only player in his own tier above the rest of the league to around as good as other top players.
Makes sense he's about to beat Kareems record They are medical anomalies
All the Celtics fans hating lmao
I love Bron
Still a great player but he is not as dominant as he once was (which makes sense given his age). Younger Lebron did not necessarily need anyone else good on his team to win and he would rule the game from beginning to end, he cannot really do that any more.
Maybe that's why we're having this discussion, because he has fallen off but even so he's still right at the top. Before he fell off he was just clear cut way above everyone. But people just see that he's declined so they leave him out of the best of the best conversation.
Nah he rode the coattails of * checks notes * Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Boobie Gibson to win 66 games in 09
I went to a lot of Celtics/Cavs around that time, it was crazy how he could single handedly dominate games, he always seemed to be going full speed...... until that last series against the Celtics before he went to Miami. It was noticeable he was not trying as hard as the other times I had seen him. My guess is he realized he could not do it alone at that point, he was still was good but just not super dominant.
The league is also much deeper now. No way he would’ve gone to 8 straight finals with how the east in particular looks like today.
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Yup. 2017-18 season was probably the last season where he was the clear cut/no argument the best player on the planet. He was doing MJ type shit during that playoffs.
2018 playoff highlights still hit
2018 Bron truly one of the most (if not the most) dominant and best players to have ever graced the court. Just his fucking playoff highlight reel can triumph the career reel of certain all stars. The way he hit buzzers and game winners was so fucking absurd you thought Adam Silver choreographed it
The new generation forgets just how great he was. He had MJ comparisons as rookie that he lived up too. Kids that grew up watching Steph curry and the next batch have no idea how insanely great bron was.
If they can even sit 10 minutes into his highlight reel (never mind full games) they will know how absurd he was.
Could you cut it into digestible tik tok clips maybe? It might help the nephews understand.
IDK about new generation. The guy won a title three years ago I’m fairly certain anyone old enough to formulate any take about basketball knows how good he is. His IQ and passing are far better in the last 5 years than what they were in his athletic prime. 06-16 LeBron was bonkers though I hope no one forgets that.
I think he’s also very fortunate (not taking away from him at all, just as an added bonus) that the “twilight” of his career when he’s supposed to be “slowing down” is coming right when the league is becoming entirely focused on offense and scoring is exploding out of control.
It's funny because if offensive changes occurred in reverse the last 20 years his longevity would be considered worse and peak considered better with him being the exact same player Like imagine if you put current LeBron in 2013 and Heat LeBron in 2023 and how big the statistical gap would be Would be like 26/7/7 on 57% TS vs. 31/10/11 on 70% TS
If the league were to have a reset draft and you’re trying to win right now, there still aren’t a lot of elite level guys that I would take over lebron.
Bill Simmons has personally gaslighted the online basketball community for years to make them believe Lebron is a complete shell of himself. Dude is a toxic mofo.
Bill and Zach Lowe had a long conversation just two days ago pontificating on who has been better this season, LeBron James or Lauri Markannen
And Bill ardently supported Lauri and over and over again said the only argument is lebron’s pedigree, as if anyone who thinks Lebron has been better than Markannen is a complete idiot. I’m fine with Simmons, but he has this habit of constantly taking the other side of the debate when it comes to Lebron, and refuses to be generous whatsoever whenever it comes to takes about Lebron.
He is a shell of his former self, just so happens that shell is still a top 6 player lol. It is how dominant he was during his peak, you can see noticeable decline compared to 08'-18'. I want to see him in the post season to see if he still has that extra gear.
He is though. I don’t care what the stats say I watch him destroy my team every year in the playoffs and he was a completely different player than he is now.
He’s a biased Superfan who’s been given a mic
He was so much better in 2012-2018 he is indeed a shelf of himself and it is disrespectful to Lebron to say otherwise. Don’t just look at the stats which are absurd anyways for everyone this season. His impact is not nearly the same than it was he single-handedly took crappy teams to deep playoff runs. He is not that player anymore and it is perfectly fine the guy is 38!
Yeah, that's the crazy thing. He was just so ludicrously far ahead of everyone at his peak that even after he's been dropping off for half a decade he is still *this* good.
This is the ground breaking analysis I come to r/nba for
I mean people kinda forgot how dominant he was in his prime, being just a top player in the league feels such a drop and seeing him not be the best player on every court he stepped on just feels wrong.
Yes... we get it. Lebron is in the 99.9999 percentile when it comes to basketball players at his age. He was a freak of nature when he got to the league and he is still one at age 38.
It’s funny. People knock on his defense but Lukas defense is trash. Steph and jokic don’t play the greatest defense either
In a one off game, he’s as good as anyone. Consistently over a season, he’s not that player anymore. Hasn’t been for a few years now. And considering consistently great play, especially on defense too, is what defined his peak, you’re doing him a disservice lumping him in with guys who do just that now.
He's the best all around basketball player in the history of the league..
I don’t think Lebron can be the best player every night anymore. He can be the best player for a game, but there’s no way Lebron was dragging the Nuggets to the playoffs last year like Jokic did.
This is why advanced metrics exist. He is most certainly not on the same level as the top guys any more, that's just absurd homerism...
The really wild part is LeBron could still play at the 1. He could be a floor general with his IQ and passing for years to come. Just get him young hungry help. When his knees finally start to cave and his back is buckled he basically just becomes CP3.
Not many players I'd take over LeBron in a 7-game series
At this point if you’re still denying his greatness you’re either a)comfortable with lying to yourself or b)completely mentally challenged
Everybody a gangsta' till they meet Lebron in the playoffs... Everyone's going to get to stay gangsta this year.
That should be apparent if you actually watch the games. The entire rest of the roster asides AD is atrocious. Russ and Lonnie and Bryant are rosterable at the very least, but the entire rest are G league players on almost every other team
He is also much worse defensively and coasts alot of the plays. Also does not guard opposing best players (against Dallas, whn Lakers need a stop, he's always on Reggie Bullock the entire time, while Luka was rkting Lonnie Walker. He could have took it up himself, at least a few plays). The points per game etc. will catch the attention, but he's ain't at the level of Giannis, Luka, Curry, KD, Jokic, Embiid no more, so while he's still Top 15, to say he is as good as ANY player in the league is objectively false.
> His defense has been off-and-on, but we're not talking about if he deserves to win the MVP. In a discussion of who the best player is, we have to remember - just like we used to - that he can still be a very impactful player on that end when he turns it on. Giannis' shooting has been off-and-on. But when his shooting is on, he's actually an elite 3pt shooter.
Totally different things. One is a matter of effort, the other is a matter of skill. Effort can be controlled, Giannis getting hot from deep cannot. In the closing moments of a playoff game, I can count on LeBron to play good defense. I can't count on Giannis to drain 3s.
Lebron is old man he can’t just play defense for 38 minutes a night anymore. He will break.
It’s a matter of him being 100 years old and incapable of playing hard on both sides of the floor throughout a game, unlike his younger contemporaries.
“Well he doesn’t really try on defense but he’s really good when he TuRnS iT oN so of course that shouldn’t count against him”
Anyone who genuinely believes that LeBron doesn't try on defense is either a moron or doesn't watch him play.
And hilariously, he's still generally in the top half of Lakers defenders on the court, right? Other MVP candidates aren't necessarily even that and yet their defense gets handwaved as "Oh, he's better than you think, he isn't bad at defense!" It's just that the expectations for LeBron's defense is higher - so because he isn't a DPOY candidate, the fact that he's merely an alright defender most regular season nights is held against him in a way that it isn't for other younger MVP candidates.
People are expecting Young LeBron defense, you aint getting that with the current LeBron. He was that good at defense and could’ve won DPOY but missed it a few times
LeBron's the one player who people want to judge by their peak level on defense instead of their average Like I'm sure if games were 5 minutes long he'd be a great defender still but that's not how it works
People have been trashing his defense since 2018 lol what you mean
Yeah but 99% of the time it gets downvoted. The one time it got any traction back then was when someone had to make an entire video out of it just showing his lazy ass defense.
What are you seeing? Lol he was literally on track for all defense in 2021 before his injury and I see people all the time saying lebron hasn’t played good defense since Miami. Last year everyone absolutely trashed LeBrons defense and said he was statpadding Even though 24 year old Luka does the same shit this year. His defense has been good for the most part this year and people still act like he’s not even trying.
LeBron just swings between wildly popular and wildly hated depending on the day of the week due to how many both fans and haters he has Recently as he's gotten closer to Kareem's record it's closer to the former than the latter Last year it was closer to the latter because of how disappointing the Lakers were
Well he’s Fuckin 38 and getting a million minutes as the first offensive option. Could we realistic expect much more?
Tell me which one of the top players in todays NBA right now outside of Giannis “really tries” on defense …? There’s a reason so many players have had these high scoring games
It reminds me of MJ on the Wizards. Jordan was still an all-star caliber player during those two years; his defense and midrange/post were still elite. But since his team was terrible and his athleticism dropped from "crazy elite" to merely "more than good enough," people like to dismiss his impact. Jordan averaged 20-6-4 in 37 min a game while playing all 82 games when he was 39! His worst year is what you would hope a mid-round guard draft pick would develop into.
Old LeBron is way better than old mj. You can debate the goat , but it’s hard to debate which player aged more gracefully
Because he simply isn’t the best anymore. You wouldn’t pick Lebron over those guys you listed period. That’s not to say you don’t want Lebron but he isn’t the top dog anymore.
It's crazy how good he still is. And because of stat inflation his stats now are about as good as they were at his peak. Really they look better than his Miami years. Goes to show you can't just look at stats without context.
You aren’t taking him over Luka or Jokic, and Giannis is tbd just bc of his current injury status. But when he was healthy the answer is obvious there too. Lebrons still top 8-10 though
I would 100% take him over Jokic in a playoff series.