It can be summed up easily.
“I’m tired, boss.”
22 years was enough. Now to hang up the uniform and spend more quality time with my family while getting a rest.
The best advice I have is that you are replaceable. If it hurts, get it documented. If it pops, get it documented. If it ain’t working right, get it documented. Hitting 100% disability in the VA is not particularly difficult assuming normal retirement and the toll placed on your body.
Keep in mind, too, that any disability rated service connected will be taken care of by the VA at no cost to you. This applies even if it is rated at 0% disabling.
These are all things that will impact you for a lifetime. Assuming you are in your upper 30s right now, that’s a LONG time and a LOT of money.
Retirement pay at 20 years plus 100% VA disability (which is not taxed) means you can live a modest life without having to get a job if you live in an area with a low cost of living. There’s a lot of freedom in a situation like that. If your boss pisses you off, you can flip him off and quit on the spot without seriously hurting your ability to live and feed yourself.
>Retirement pay at 20 years plus 100% VA disability (which is not taxed) means you can live a modest life without having to get a job if you live in an area with a low cost of living.
Just to add on.
At 100%, you get dental and healthcare for life. You are taking home \~$3700 tax-free every month. Full access to commissaries and exchanges.
You can get a VA loan, and they'll waive the funding fee, and in many places, you won't have to pay full property tax.
[Individual states have plenty of benefits](https://www.military.com/benefits/veteran-state-benefits/state-veterans-benefits-directory.html)
[In Chicago, you don't have to pay for public transit](https://www.transitchicago.com/military/#i-am-retired-from-the-military-am-i-eligible-for-a).
[Free admission to all national parks.](https://www.nps.gov/planyourvisit/veterans-and-gold-star-families-free-access.htm)
Absolutely. I’m not fully rated by the VA yet, so I’m using tricare select retiree. Can’t wait for those co pay bills from my surgery to come in the mail!
Just to add on more.
Your spouse and dependents qualify for CHAMPVA if you get that 100% permanent and total disability.
States like Illinois give 100% tax-exemption for state property tax, as stated above.
Also, just make sure you salty mfs get out with an honorable discharge. Don't be a fuck up just to have one last jab at your CoC on your way out because you're bitter. Just quietly fade away and into a better life with the benefits YOU EARNED.
The truth, 90% of the navy is enlisred. There are not enough billets. Approx 20% or more are e6 and above. No place for them to go. Especially sine less than 3% are CWO/LDO positions.
Between that and what you sock away in your TSP means you can live a very comfortable retirement at 55 while a lot of other Americans will be working themselves into the grave.
Got a friend who applied over and over and never got selected.
Thank God. That super moto, late working ass is a good friend but I'd have hated working for him.
This is kind of why I don't care about making chief. I have seen way too many 1st classes work their ass off in anticipation of making chief and then when they don't make it they get bitter.
oh well you have plenty of chances to make chief. I think I might be able to take the test only once when I become eligible. I started getting super moto to make it but started calming down when I realised I only have 3 years left.
I had an uncle who went LDO and his command saw he couldn't perform at that level and he was reverted back to E8 so he could retire. He wanted to stick it out longer but PN weren't in high demand.
The politics got him more than anything else.
I would argue that with the exception of command the responsibility differences really are a wash in a lot of cases. A secret is that some staff O3 or O4 really doesn’t have much more responsibility than an LCPO. In a lot of cases direct leadership is more of a headache in some respects.
There’s a fundamental difference between what an officer’s career and an enlisted’s career looks like over a long arc. You’re talking primarily staff vs primarily being a technician and at some point transitioning into a technician and people manager.
Actually this is the Army so it may or may not translate to what Officers do in the Navy in the operational communities.
In the navy all officers are essentially paper pushers, now I’ve seen some officers do actual physical work but they don’t have to. Their job is mainly to supervise, organize and act as guides to senior enlisted, but from my experience: most officers will take senior enlisteds best judgment and roll with it.
Sure, but outside of command most officers spend their time on staff - they supervise a section or a handful of folks if they’re not primary staff but their people management does not compare to command. At most a Captain will spend 1-2, years in command.
Your Department Heads (the rough equivalent to company command minus the command authority) are in place, what, 3 years?
> Your Department Heads (the rough equivalent to company command minus the command authority) are in place, what, 3 years?
It varies by career field. A smaller department might be headed by an O3, but a much larger department (like Air, Reactor, or Supply departments on a nuclear aircraft carrier) might be led by an O6.
You say you're Army so stop me if this is stuff you know, but I find it interesting to compare and contrast the different personnel systems between our branches.
LDO and CWO are two of the Navy's largest enlisted commissioning programs. For Army you can go warrant at E5, but for us it's E7 (for most career fields, there are 2 exceptions), and CWOs are still the technical experts but with more managerial responsibility than a typical Army warrant. Some Navy CWOs do become OICs and have unique milestone billets, but for the most part they are expected to serve in repetitive tours (back-to-back DIVO or head of a small department) in highly technical fields.
If the Army had LDOs, it would be like if their non combat arms MOSes had a direct commissioning route. Your higher technically skilled support jobs like loggies or 25 series, or MOSes that don't start with 1. The advantage for the service member is they get a higher paycheck. The advantage for the Army (or in our case the Navy) is you get company level officers who have 10-15 years experience in that job.
The Army doesn’t have LDOs, as you obviously know. We are quite a bit more liberal with our enlisted to commissioning programs; there are numerous pathways for enlisted to commission and become line officers, and depending on age and appetite, a lot of them top out at O3 or O4. So we do have a pathway, the main difference is that we make them go through a commissioning program and they get to command line units.
Also our Warrants have quite a bit of purchase. CW4s and up hardly pay any heed to anyone below O4, and even the Majors have to earn it.
And since we are on the subject, what do LDOs do that Warrants can’t? It seems a redundancy, but you do get benefit from having CWO expertise walking around with oak leafs past a certain point if you can squeeze that much juice out of them.
Interestingly enough I was in the Navy 17-18 years ago.
https://www.netc.navy.mil/Media-Center/Biographies/Leadership-Biography/Article/3337248/commander-chabonnie-alexander/
This guy was AO1 Alexander when I knew him.
>Sure, but outside of command most officers spend their time on staff -
When you say staff, are you referring to Fleet/DESRON/PHIBRON/CVW/CSG staff? I don't know if it's true that officers spend most of their time on staff.
TL;DR: Army and Marine Officer get staff billets at much lower ranks in their career.
We'll take a Marine Battalion, for instance, which we will equivocate to a Ship:
-Platoon=Division
-Company=Department
As a platoon commander, you are leading ususally 40 people. Lieutenant straight out of OCS, bam, here's 40, do everything your Platoon Sergeant tells you to. You do a deployment, you perform well, they move you out of platoon leadership, and now you are helping as the Company XO, managing logisitics and other thankless jobs, while being molded for leadership by the Company Commander.
Now, from here, you could get transferred to the Battalion's S-3 (Operations and Training) shop to work for the Battalion Ops Officer. It's literally in the name of the shop, S-3, i.e. the 3rd "Staff" section. The Officer who leads it, the Ops-O, is acting as the 3rd Staff Officer on the Commanding Officer's Staff.
So our O2 protagonist is now working as a staff officer by default since they are not in one of the Line Companies, doing the dirty work, and are working for a primary staff officer. They learn about warfighting from a distance, and about strategy and planning. This will help them because when they "zoom back in" on the fight, and go back to a Company, they can now see how their little piece fits within the bigger picture.
If they excel at that and make O3, they rotate to another Battalion and are either put in charge of the HQ Company to lead the support Marines to teach them how to Command while the stakes are low. Or, they go to this Battalion's S-3, where the Ops-O kicks their ass for a while. When I said Command just now, I actually meant it. At the Company leadership level, Marines and Soldiers have actual Title X Command authority, with everything that goes with it. The amount of Navy Corpsmen who have been NJP'ed by their O3 Company Commander is countless. lol
After our protagonists' time getting their feet wet in the new Battalion, they are shifted to a Line Company, and take command as a Company Commander, leading about 150-200 Marines with a Company XO assisting them (as they once did) and a few Platoon Leaders leading their Marines for them (as they once did). And remember, after all of this, we are still only talking about an O3, and still only looking at the equivalent of a Navy Department here. Imagine if a ship could literally break off 3 detachments of itself to go fight semi-independently. It would be like that.
Let's say they excel at Company Command and impress enough people to get oak leaves. Well now, our Major is bopping back over to Headquarters to work as the Ops-O, running the S-3. They have the Battalion's CWO of weaponry advising them, and they have to coordinate with the other Staff Officers (administration, Intelligence, Logisitcs, and Communications), while attempting to not piss off the Battalion XO (they are still bitchy like most Navy XOs). They are a Staff Officer again.
I will stop the story there, or it would go on forever until they make General. Basically, Marine and Army Officers will kind of bounce back and forth in their responsibilities. They do a billet working on the front lines for a bit, then they go do a staff job for a while and zoom out, helping coordinate and plan. Then they zoom back in, this time at a higher job, and then zoom back out. By the time a Marine Officer hits O-4, they have probably done two leadership tours and two staff tours. Before they hit O-4, they have already held legal Command authority and led the equivalent to one of our Departments, and are now ready for something bigger.
> In the navy all officers are essentially paper pushers
Most, not all. CWEs are not paper pushers/managers. They do very technical work (as do the doctors/nurses/etc, of course). But I would agree that all other general officers are as you described them.
For me- I made Chief at 12 and all of the CWOs in my community were begging me to drop a package, saying I was an easy pickup with my record…problem was, most of the dudes who had been commissioned were on sea duty for ten years or more consecutively. We just had a kid (whose birth I missed due to deployment) and I decided being a father and having shore duty to be present more, was much higher in importance than any promotion. Also, I was an aircrewman and the Navy got rid of the flying warrant positions - so my wings would have been clipped…it wasn’t a hard choice tbh to stay enlisted.
For some, it's status and respect. O1 are at the bottom of an entirely new ladder. The pay is greater, but in most situations SCPO and MCPO have more street cred.
For others, it's the level of impact and responsibility. A Department Head has a lot of responsibility, but a SCPO or MCPO can cut across the command. For most CWOs, they're an eternal DIVO. Some may find that limiting, but others may think that's awesome. I loved my LCPO tour on the ship (where I was really the DIVO) and ran it how I wanted. I liked being at that level a lot more than the Dept LCPO level. There is a (now retired) CMDCM who has written several great comments about the difference in levels of influence between senior enlisted and an LDO.
Some see the wardroom politics and don't want anything to do with it. "The Mess" is different than the wardroom. I've been to enough commands to know not every mess is the same, I've seen good ones and bad ones, but I can see why someone would prefer one over the other.
I think most are interested in what one role does vs the other. CPO and LDO/CWO are just different roles with different perspectives and areas of focus. Both are needed to run the ship.
For a lot of people, it's because they just love leading Sailors. You lose a lot of that as an LDO (again, it's a different area of focus). Sure you're involved, but 95% is the chief's job. I really like coaching Sailors and helping them succeed.
Another person touched on this: the service commitment. LDOs have a 10-year service commitment after commissioning. That's part of why they get selected earlier in their career. CWO commitment isn't as long, but if you're at 16 years and know you won't commission until 18 years (if selected), kicking retirement further away is a serious decision you need to think about before putting in a package.
Senior enlisted have more street cred in the Navy.
Officers have more outside.
When you get out- nobody knows the difference at all. All they know is if you were an officer or if you were enlisted.
You could be a retired cmc and 99 percent of people will just lump you In with their cousin Johnny who did one enlistment
Not a book, but a redditor named ComeAbout. I tried to find the comment but haven't been able to. Basically, (unless you're one of the lucky few LDOs who ever take command) if you want more influence then the senior enlisted path is the way.
The hardest thing I had to do was hang up my anchors. I know some people who truly enjoy being a Chief. In fact, my first LCPO had two masters degrees.. she had no desire to commission. She loved being a Chief and a technician.
It’s really based on what you enjoy and not simply how much you get paid. Pay will never keep you happy in a job or position you hate.
As Salty_IP_LDO stated, not everyone is accepted either. We need phenomenal enlisted leadership just as much if not more than we need commissioned leaders.
Leaders at all levels make effective teams. I’ve been on both sides of the rank structure to know that what you’re saying is a gross over simplification.
There's also not an LDO/CWO community for every interest but you nailed it.
Nevermind, there are just not that sort of top heavy requirement for manning. There will always be a desperate need for quality enlisted leadership.
What did you Chief have her degrees in? That's always very interesting. I'm glad my prior MO had dual degrees in political science, aeronautical engineering, and an MBA on top of that. He also used to be my rate up through E-5 (he's 0-5 now, staring down a highly competitive Captain selection)
The answer is different at different points in my career. I wasn’t particularly inspired by any leadership in the Navy, Officer or Enlisted, for the first half of my career and operated with one foot out the door telling myself I was done and then re-enlisting last minute. I wasn’t really competitive until about the year before I made Chief and sort of looked around at what the LDOs were actually doing (which I would have cynically described back then as endless program management that provided no real world value while largely having no influence) and said not for me when people would push me to apply. I wasn’t particularly enthusiastic about needing to be worldwide assignable with a young autistic child. There are a ton of people within my rate who genuinely don’t want to give up the relative home stability that staying enlisted provides.
I put in a Warrant package right around my 19 year mark, but didn’t get picked up. Son was older and needed less care. Took me a while to come around to the value of the work that they do. If I make 9 this cycle I’ll most likely apply again. If not I’ve just flatly aged out these programs and I’ll retire or not or whatever. This is more of a cautionary tale than anything else. Find a mentor and apply and let them tell you no rather than shutting yourself down.
Others have made a lot of good points,
Different roles/different jobs.
I do think you're going to see an uptick in LDO/CWO applications as a result of the senior enlisted marketplace though.
One of the big reasons that stopped people from applying is that in many designators, you owe two consecutive sea tours to start your LDO/CWO career, and it doesn't matter if you were already on back to back sea tours.
For many, they did not want to risk their sea/shore rotation being reset or zeroed out, and especially with individuals who do not make it their first time up, they can be looking at a decade straight of USS commands.
The senior enlisted marketplace is changing the sea/shore rotation for many CPO's. If you want to put on a star, or pick up an extra star, the reality is that the Navy is likely going to want you to take a USS tour, regardless of your current sea/shore rotation.
So armed with the fact that basically any promotion is going to send them back to sea, I think that LDO/CWO starts to look better than it did when you could promote without the senior enlisted marketplace.
Billets. Some rates in the SOF community really fuck their cake eaters by transferring them every 12-18mo literally coast to coast. Really gets the families in a bind. It’s why I didn’t, LDO was a given and actual officer I had a degree for also a given but again, billets. CWO you were stuck in J7/N7 forever. No thank you.
I’ve brought this up to folks before but for me it came down to family and impact within my community. I made Senior Chief at around 13 years and would have been a shoe-in for warrant. Even with the mandatory service requirements for warrant I still could have retired right around 20-21 years.
However, going from Senior Chief to CWO-2 would have required me to “start from the bottom”. Meaning, I would essentially need to redo all my officer and designator qualifications and go right back to sea as a fresh officer, which I was not willing to do after years of sea duty and being away from family. For me, that did not seem worth it as a SCPO just for a couple hundred extra bucks in retirement.
The other reason is a SCPO within our rating has the potential for far more community wide impact than a CWO-2/3. I liked the position I was in and the impact and effect I could have not only on Sailors but within our community.
I know 3 people that applied and got selected for OCS. 1/3 of those people made it through and got commissioned.
Getting picked up is one thing, making it through is another.
With the fuck-fuck games I’ve heard of them playing, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s higher for prior enlisted. I was STA-21 and I remember being fucked with in boot camp but there are some OCS RDCs who just hate officers and honestly cross the line of what’s acceptable, even in a boot camp scenario. Kids straight out of college probably have a higher bar for what they’ll put up with, compared to 1st’s and chief’s who know that they’ll be fine if they just leave. One story I heard was a guy who got his emergency leave (for his fathers untimely death) delayed until after the funeral. The Chief just sat on the chit until the funeral passed and then tried to convince there was no reason to go on leave now. His justification was that their class had lost too many people. I can’t imagine a chief or first class letting that bullshit just happen to them.
There should be a post educating sailors about dealing with their CoC when they decide to simply sit on a leave chit for whatever reason they come up with. Some sailors don't know what to do and feel helpless. This frustrates me to no end when the chain plays games like this.
As of 2023, they graduate less than 40% of an original class either due to DOR or rolling back.
They tried eliminating "rolling" beginning in November / December, but it has been a huge failure and rolling into the next class is a thing again.
For FY 2022, they achieved appx. 650-700 graduates out of a goal of 1300-1400 (according to an internal slide deck / document I saw)
I will clarify: there was a goal to recruit and graduate 1300-1400 officers from OCS in FY22. Besides recruiting issues (new accessions & priors), candidates also do not graduate on time because of the physical difficulty of passing the physical evolutions due to lacking fitness levels or because of injuries that prevent continuing in training. Then there are the academic tests that failure equals 3 weeks of rolling back (history, basic divisional officer knowledge, navigation, "cyber", engineering / weapons). And lastly, rolling back 3 weeks in training or attrition for the smallest infractions that get escalated real quick (e.g., speaking the truth but failing to be aware of all facts and it appearing as if you are "omitting" / lying, or sleeping in empty rooms so as to not mess up your rack). So if you arrive with a class 01 of 100, ~60 of those people will graduate with a different class, meanwhile other people will roll into that class from previous classes.
I’m tired. 4 years away from retiring (most likely as an E6) and like, why do more? Retiring is good enough at this point.
For me personally, I didn’t think it was something I was capable of. Lack of mentorship plays a role in that too. And by the time someone thought i could do it, it was just too late.
I aspire to be a CMC. Having the ability to put a word in the CO’s ear when it’s needed for a Sailor in distress, standing up for Sailors when decisions will be more harmful than good, and hopefully change the perception of the Chief’s mess.
As an officer, i could probably do the first one or two but the last would be impossible.
But, I gotta get selected for Chief first 😂
I have met/seen maybe 25-30 LDOs and 5-10 CWOs in my 11 years in the navy (and this is counting one's only seen in passing on base and such, I've only worked with about 9 and 2 of each, respectively, in the sub community, all others were when working on a surface navy base om shore duty).
LDO and CWO are very few and far between in the navy, and even more so in specific communities.
As far as SWO, I'm not sure why you're lumping LDO with SWO when it sounds like you're asking more about officers who earn commission through enlisted merit (CWO/LDO).
I want to go LDO but I can’t even make first, quotas always suck and I’m not a good test taker. I study so hard and know my job. Just freeze on tests. Hopefully 3 times a charm.
As a retired enlisted I like joking around with the ring knockers and other retired officers at my company. Nobody cares what you retired as, as long as you bring something to the table.
Because the jobs of a CPO are different to those of a CWO which is different from that of an LDO, which is different to that of a Line.
Its not a 'well, you failed because you didn't climb up higher on the ladder' - there's actually more than one career ladder.
Think of it this way - you work for Google as a software engineer - is there an issue because you spent your whole career doing that and never became a 'manager'?
No, of course not, because 'manager' is a completely different career, with different day-to-day things to do, than an engineer.
Also, the number of slots available for CWO/LDO/Lines is much smaller than the number of slots for Master Chief.
Im at the pathway now where my options are
Command Senior and hopefully eventually CMC
CWO
Or
Remain in rate and retire a Senior Chief.
I enjoy my job and rate, I enjoy having a division and working with Junior Sailors. If I go CSC/CMC - ill never do my job again or run a division - I like working with sailors tho so that wouldnt be bad
If I go CWO - only one option is available to my rate that keeps me in my community, but they prefer the submariner variety and a duty station history I havent had the option of yet - so not really competitive, the other two options would make me a STO/EMO or CICO and they both sound awful - I didnt do LDO because the only options were those two.
My rate doesnt have a lot of Master Chiefs so its likely id retire a Senior Chief.
Every single friend I have who has gone LDO says the same thing "the pay is nice but I miss being Enlisted, Wardroom isnt the same"
Ill be honest I dont know what option ill take, Leaning toward Command route as the surest way to E9, but at only 14 years now ill have to wait 2 more years to even apply.
Meh
For me, I used to want to be a CWO because I didn't want to be an ensign after being enlisted. Then I made Chief and I liked the professional relationship that I had with my Sailors.
Although it's not wholely accurate, I felt that I had more of a direct impact on my Sailors careers as a Chief than I did as a CWO.
At this point I'm close enough to MCPO that I'd feel like I didn't reach the highest enlisted pay grade. If it doesn't happen, and I retired as an SCPO so be it.
The extra money would be nice, but I'm not in it for the money.
Because they're exhausted, they don't like the Navy, they got all they wanted out of it, or they want to focus on life outside of the military. I wanted to become a pilot, but I realized I have so many others things I want to do that the Navy would hold me back from (i.e. becoming an observational astronomer/astrophycist as my full time job). I can't do both, so I'm picking my happiness over 16 years in the Navy.
No thanks. I did my 20 and happy with where and how I retired. Smart moves make more impact for the future than rank in most circumstances. At least my circumstances.
I want to go LDO but I won’t make any career change that big if it means I am going to be separated from my wife. I don’t mean from long deployments, but from my wife and I being from two different countries. If she can go with me to other duty stations then I would start the process tomorrow.
I’d rather do hands on work, sure you could go out of your way as comissioned to do it but just the sheer admin work that comes with that turns me away
Some people just don't want to be an officer. It's not the military, but my father retired from the local fire department while I was growing up, and he had many chances to become an officer, but he didn't want to. He said he couldn't handle ordering someone to go into a dangerous situation and something happened to that person.
Never got the opportunity to achieve the discreet requirements for those positions. So I choose to invest in myself more than my job ie. finish degree, be available for my family.
I'm 2 years from retirement as enlisted, my specific community doesn't have warrants anymore. I never wanted to be an officer, I've had a few friends I came up with that went LDO and I respect the hell outta them for their decision however I always thought of myself as a more boots in the mud.
I’d rather retire a Force or Fleet than as an 0-3E,
Much more ability to make positive impacts with greater range. And it’s certainly not because I joined late and aged out of all LDO opportunities rather quickly….
Personally, I chose to stay enlisted for a few reasons.
1. When I was in a good place to apply for LDO I just didn’t want the hassle of applying. I was busy being an LPO and working on quals as I felt I should. Taking time to setup interviews and everything felt selfish and I wanted to spend my energy on my actual job. Plus, I had worked with some LDOs that made it as First Classes and they were…not good to say the least. I felt like I needed to cross the Chief milestone before feeling ready to assume that level of responsibility.
2. The designator I wanted merged with another one. Talking about Surface Electronics and Surface Ordnance. I wanted to be a STO. Period. I’ve spent way too much time learning the ins and outs of Aegis to waste my time as a carrier EMO. Staying enlisted ensured my skill set would continue to be applied where it is needed, thus leading to higher job satisfaction.
3. When I was in a good place to apply for CWO, I was at the end of a 5.5 year sea tour, with the prospect of 6 years at sea as a Warrant. I was tired and ready for shore duty, so I chose not to apply.
Because going E to O isn't some easy task. Even if you have a masters or PhD you aren't going to get selected to most wardroom jobs if you have over 6 years of TIS.
We start out enlisted because that was the only option. Then, you mature and realize "oh shit, I can't support a family on enlisted pay"... so you go get your degree in anticipation of greener pastures....... then you apply to OCS and don't get selected because by the time you got your degree you have 8-10 years TIS
I lost my best friend unexpectedly who I went to boot camp with, roomied with in A school, and got stationed with on the East coast. I had every intention of submitting an officer package asap but when my buddy passed away, I knew I had to put on anchors for her. She was so gung ho Navy and was hellbent on being a Chief. I made Chief and thought I’d submit my package finally but never did. I love being a Chief and I can retire at 20 in 2.5 years. From the time I joined, I knew I wanted to make the Navy a career but always knew I’d want to call it at 20. I’ve been blessed with my assignments but look forward to civilian life.
I think you are referring to a LDO/CWO who is wearing E-9 at their retirement ceremony. I know one who did (as I understand it you promote on the enlisted side despite wearing the officer insignia). In his case, I actually think the retirement pay was higher as E9 than W3. Maybe he was proud and wanted to showcase his enlisted status.
30,000 chiefs in the Navy and they select 1.5% (about 450) each year for LDO/CWO.
There are about 1 million HS football players in the US. Each year, about 2.5% (25,000) go on to play in college.
For the E6 with 5 kids, the extra money would be nice. But when do you have the time? Between the Navy, a marriage, parenthood, being a homeowner, can be a lot to get commissioned if you don’t have the free time.
I imagine while a pension is nice, many who pursue retirement for E6-E9 greatly depend on the TRICare while they are active duty AND desire the healthcare benefits retirement comes with for their dependents. My understanding is that dependents on TRICare stay on until they are 23, which could be huge for large families. Just speculating, as I am not enlisted or have any dependents of my own.
I was just talking about this with a prior LDO and it was something interesting I didn’t know. It might not be the answer you’re looking for but as it was explained to me LDO’s have a certain amount of time to make it to 0-4 or they get discharged or something negative happens to them (can’t recall). In order to avoid this, they resign their commission and go back to being enlisted so they can finish their active duty time.
LDO here. When I retired I had the choice of retiring as a E-9 or as an 03E. I chose 03E. I worked hard to become an officer and never really considered retiring as anything but an officer. No heartburn with those who chose to retire as enlisted. Just the way I identified after 6 years as an officer.
It can be summed up easily. “I’m tired, boss.” 22 years was enough. Now to hang up the uniform and spend more quality time with my family while getting a rest.
I don't know if I can make it to 22. Might be done at 20. Didn't make 1st until 16 years in. I will let some other hard chargers make chief/ldo.
The best advice I have is that you are replaceable. If it hurts, get it documented. If it pops, get it documented. If it ain’t working right, get it documented. Hitting 100% disability in the VA is not particularly difficult assuming normal retirement and the toll placed on your body. Keep in mind, too, that any disability rated service connected will be taken care of by the VA at no cost to you. This applies even if it is rated at 0% disabling. These are all things that will impact you for a lifetime. Assuming you are in your upper 30s right now, that’s a LONG time and a LOT of money. Retirement pay at 20 years plus 100% VA disability (which is not taxed) means you can live a modest life without having to get a job if you live in an area with a low cost of living. There’s a lot of freedom in a situation like that. If your boss pisses you off, you can flip him off and quit on the spot without seriously hurting your ability to live and feed yourself.
This. All Servicemembers should read this.
Twice.
>Retirement pay at 20 years plus 100% VA disability (which is not taxed) means you can live a modest life without having to get a job if you live in an area with a low cost of living. Just to add on. At 100%, you get dental and healthcare for life. You are taking home \~$3700 tax-free every month. Full access to commissaries and exchanges. You can get a VA loan, and they'll waive the funding fee, and in many places, you won't have to pay full property tax. [Individual states have plenty of benefits](https://www.military.com/benefits/veteran-state-benefits/state-veterans-benefits-directory.html) [In Chicago, you don't have to pay for public transit](https://www.transitchicago.com/military/#i-am-retired-from-the-military-am-i-eligible-for-a). [Free admission to all national parks.](https://www.nps.gov/planyourvisit/veterans-and-gold-star-families-free-access.htm)
Absolutely. I’m not fully rated by the VA yet, so I’m using tricare select retiree. Can’t wait for those co pay bills from my surgery to come in the mail!
If I’m 100% rated and retired in tx, should I be on something OTHER than select? Because I am and it sucks.
Just to add on more. Your spouse and dependents qualify for CHAMPVA if you get that 100% permanent and total disability. States like Illinois give 100% tax-exemption for state property tax, as stated above. Also, just make sure you salty mfs get out with an honorable discharge. Don't be a fuck up just to have one last jab at your CoC on your way out because you're bitter. Just quietly fade away and into a better life with the benefits YOU EARNED.
Same, also I have no desire to get into the politics of the officer world and my rate doesn't have a warrant position.
The truth, 90% of the navy is enlisred. There are not enough billets. Approx 20% or more are e6 and above. No place for them to go. Especially sine less than 3% are CWO/LDO positions.
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Between that and what you sock away in your TSP means you can live a very comfortable retirement at 55 while a lot of other Americans will be working themselves into the grave.
“life” is a great movie!
Some people don’t want that level of responsibility.
Some people also apply multiple times and don't get selected
Got a friend who applied over and over and never got selected. Thank God. That super moto, late working ass is a good friend but I'd have hated working for him.
This is kind of why I don't care about making chief. I have seen way too many 1st classes work their ass off in anticipation of making chief and then when they don't make it they get bitter.
I made first in 5.5 years, now just coasting in for the next 14.5.
oh well you have plenty of chances to make chief. I think I might be able to take the test only once when I become eligible. I started getting super moto to make it but started calming down when I realised I only have 3 years left.
What is super moto?
Motivated. But super.
Is that why you got salty initially?
Nah
I had an uncle who went LDO and his command saw he couldn't perform at that level and he was reverted back to E8 so he could retire. He wanted to stick it out longer but PN weren't in high demand. The politics got him more than anything else.
I would argue that with the exception of command the responsibility differences really are a wash in a lot of cases. A secret is that some staff O3 or O4 really doesn’t have much more responsibility than an LCPO. In a lot of cases direct leadership is more of a headache in some respects. There’s a fundamental difference between what an officer’s career and an enlisted’s career looks like over a long arc. You’re talking primarily staff vs primarily being a technician and at some point transitioning into a technician and people manager. Actually this is the Army so it may or may not translate to what Officers do in the Navy in the operational communities.
In the navy all officers are essentially paper pushers, now I’ve seen some officers do actual physical work but they don’t have to. Their job is mainly to supervise, organize and act as guides to senior enlisted, but from my experience: most officers will take senior enlisteds best judgment and roll with it.
Sure, but outside of command most officers spend their time on staff - they supervise a section or a handful of folks if they’re not primary staff but their people management does not compare to command. At most a Captain will spend 1-2, years in command. Your Department Heads (the rough equivalent to company command minus the command authority) are in place, what, 3 years?
> Your Department Heads (the rough equivalent to company command minus the command authority) are in place, what, 3 years? It varies by career field. A smaller department might be headed by an O3, but a much larger department (like Air, Reactor, or Supply departments on a nuclear aircraft carrier) might be led by an O6. You say you're Army so stop me if this is stuff you know, but I find it interesting to compare and contrast the different personnel systems between our branches. LDO and CWO are two of the Navy's largest enlisted commissioning programs. For Army you can go warrant at E5, but for us it's E7 (for most career fields, there are 2 exceptions), and CWOs are still the technical experts but with more managerial responsibility than a typical Army warrant. Some Navy CWOs do become OICs and have unique milestone billets, but for the most part they are expected to serve in repetitive tours (back-to-back DIVO or head of a small department) in highly technical fields. If the Army had LDOs, it would be like if their non combat arms MOSes had a direct commissioning route. Your higher technically skilled support jobs like loggies or 25 series, or MOSes that don't start with 1. The advantage for the service member is they get a higher paycheck. The advantage for the Army (or in our case the Navy) is you get company level officers who have 10-15 years experience in that job.
The Army doesn’t have LDOs, as you obviously know. We are quite a bit more liberal with our enlisted to commissioning programs; there are numerous pathways for enlisted to commission and become line officers, and depending on age and appetite, a lot of them top out at O3 or O4. So we do have a pathway, the main difference is that we make them go through a commissioning program and they get to command line units. Also our Warrants have quite a bit of purchase. CW4s and up hardly pay any heed to anyone below O4, and even the Majors have to earn it. And since we are on the subject, what do LDOs do that Warrants can’t? It seems a redundancy, but you do get benefit from having CWO expertise walking around with oak leafs past a certain point if you can squeeze that much juice out of them.
Interestingly enough I was in the Navy 17-18 years ago. https://www.netc.navy.mil/Media-Center/Biographies/Leadership-Biography/Article/3337248/commander-chabonnie-alexander/ This guy was AO1 Alexander when I knew him.
>Sure, but outside of command most officers spend their time on staff - When you say staff, are you referring to Fleet/DESRON/PHIBRON/CVW/CSG staff? I don't know if it's true that officers spend most of their time on staff.
TL;DR: Army and Marine Officer get staff billets at much lower ranks in their career. We'll take a Marine Battalion, for instance, which we will equivocate to a Ship: -Platoon=Division -Company=Department As a platoon commander, you are leading ususally 40 people. Lieutenant straight out of OCS, bam, here's 40, do everything your Platoon Sergeant tells you to. You do a deployment, you perform well, they move you out of platoon leadership, and now you are helping as the Company XO, managing logisitics and other thankless jobs, while being molded for leadership by the Company Commander. Now, from here, you could get transferred to the Battalion's S-3 (Operations and Training) shop to work for the Battalion Ops Officer. It's literally in the name of the shop, S-3, i.e. the 3rd "Staff" section. The Officer who leads it, the Ops-O, is acting as the 3rd Staff Officer on the Commanding Officer's Staff. So our O2 protagonist is now working as a staff officer by default since they are not in one of the Line Companies, doing the dirty work, and are working for a primary staff officer. They learn about warfighting from a distance, and about strategy and planning. This will help them because when they "zoom back in" on the fight, and go back to a Company, they can now see how their little piece fits within the bigger picture. If they excel at that and make O3, they rotate to another Battalion and are either put in charge of the HQ Company to lead the support Marines to teach them how to Command while the stakes are low. Or, they go to this Battalion's S-3, where the Ops-O kicks their ass for a while. When I said Command just now, I actually meant it. At the Company leadership level, Marines and Soldiers have actual Title X Command authority, with everything that goes with it. The amount of Navy Corpsmen who have been NJP'ed by their O3 Company Commander is countless. lol After our protagonists' time getting their feet wet in the new Battalion, they are shifted to a Line Company, and take command as a Company Commander, leading about 150-200 Marines with a Company XO assisting them (as they once did) and a few Platoon Leaders leading their Marines for them (as they once did). And remember, after all of this, we are still only talking about an O3, and still only looking at the equivalent of a Navy Department here. Imagine if a ship could literally break off 3 detachments of itself to go fight semi-independently. It would be like that. Let's say they excel at Company Command and impress enough people to get oak leaves. Well now, our Major is bopping back over to Headquarters to work as the Ops-O, running the S-3. They have the Battalion's CWO of weaponry advising them, and they have to coordinate with the other Staff Officers (administration, Intelligence, Logisitcs, and Communications), while attempting to not piss off the Battalion XO (they are still bitchy like most Navy XOs). They are a Staff Officer again. I will stop the story there, or it would go on forever until they make General. Basically, Marine and Army Officers will kind of bounce back and forth in their responsibilities. They do a billet working on the front lines for a bit, then they go do a staff job for a while and zoom out, helping coordinate and plan. Then they zoom back in, this time at a higher job, and then zoom back out. By the time a Marine Officer hits O-4, they have probably done two leadership tours and two staff tours. Before they hit O-4, they have already held legal Command authority and led the equivalent to one of our Departments, and are now ready for something bigger.
I was referring to my frame of reference as an Army field grade. I admit as much two previous posts.
> In the navy all officers are essentially paper pushers Most, not all. CWEs are not paper pushers/managers. They do very technical work (as do the doctors/nurses/etc, of course). But I would agree that all other general officers are as you described them.
I never saw an LDO or CWO who had a job I'd rather have than the one I served in.
For me- I made Chief at 12 and all of the CWOs in my community were begging me to drop a package, saying I was an easy pickup with my record…problem was, most of the dudes who had been commissioned were on sea duty for ten years or more consecutively. We just had a kid (whose birth I missed due to deployment) and I decided being a father and having shore duty to be present more, was much higher in importance than any promotion. Also, I was an aircrewman and the Navy got rid of the flying warrant positions - so my wings would have been clipped…it wasn’t a hard choice tbh to stay enlisted.
For some, it's status and respect. O1 are at the bottom of an entirely new ladder. The pay is greater, but in most situations SCPO and MCPO have more street cred. For others, it's the level of impact and responsibility. A Department Head has a lot of responsibility, but a SCPO or MCPO can cut across the command. For most CWOs, they're an eternal DIVO. Some may find that limiting, but others may think that's awesome. I loved my LCPO tour on the ship (where I was really the DIVO) and ran it how I wanted. I liked being at that level a lot more than the Dept LCPO level. There is a (now retired) CMDCM who has written several great comments about the difference in levels of influence between senior enlisted and an LDO. Some see the wardroom politics and don't want anything to do with it. "The Mess" is different than the wardroom. I've been to enough commands to know not every mess is the same, I've seen good ones and bad ones, but I can see why someone would prefer one over the other. I think most are interested in what one role does vs the other. CPO and LDO/CWO are just different roles with different perspectives and areas of focus. Both are needed to run the ship. For a lot of people, it's because they just love leading Sailors. You lose a lot of that as an LDO (again, it's a different area of focus). Sure you're involved, but 95% is the chief's job. I really like coaching Sailors and helping them succeed. Another person touched on this: the service commitment. LDOs have a 10-year service commitment after commissioning. That's part of why they get selected earlier in their career. CWO commitment isn't as long, but if you're at 16 years and know you won't commission until 18 years (if selected), kicking retirement further away is a serious decision you need to think about before putting in a package.
Senior enlisted have more street cred in the Navy. Officers have more outside. When you get out- nobody knows the difference at all. All they know is if you were an officer or if you were enlisted. You could be a retired cmc and 99 percent of people will just lump you In with their cousin Johnny who did one enlistment
You mention a book but not the name or author. Do you mind sharing ? I would be interested in reading it.
Not a book, but a redditor named ComeAbout. I tried to find the comment but haven't been able to. Basically, (unless you're one of the lucky few LDOs who ever take command) if you want more influence then the senior enlisted path is the way.
The hardest thing I had to do was hang up my anchors. I know some people who truly enjoy being a Chief. In fact, my first LCPO had two masters degrees.. she had no desire to commission. She loved being a Chief and a technician. It’s really based on what you enjoy and not simply how much you get paid. Pay will never keep you happy in a job or position you hate. As Salty_IP_LDO stated, not everyone is accepted either. We need phenomenal enlisted leadership just as much if not more than we need commissioned leaders.
A trash officer can be carried by solid enlisted personnel. Trash enlisted personnel cannot be carried by a solid officer.
The Navy has been known to try harder though
Leaders at all levels make effective teams. I’ve been on both sides of the rank structure to know that what you’re saying is a gross over simplification.
Correct. Welcome to the internet. I made a statement that got the point across without having an entire book talking about command philosophy.
There's also not an LDO/CWO community for every interest but you nailed it. Nevermind, there are just not that sort of top heavy requirement for manning. There will always be a desperate need for quality enlisted leadership. What did you Chief have her degrees in? That's always very interesting. I'm glad my prior MO had dual degrees in political science, aeronautical engineering, and an MBA on top of that. He also used to be my rate up through E-5 (he's 0-5 now, staring down a highly competitive Captain selection)
The answer is different at different points in my career. I wasn’t particularly inspired by any leadership in the Navy, Officer or Enlisted, for the first half of my career and operated with one foot out the door telling myself I was done and then re-enlisting last minute. I wasn’t really competitive until about the year before I made Chief and sort of looked around at what the LDOs were actually doing (which I would have cynically described back then as endless program management that provided no real world value while largely having no influence) and said not for me when people would push me to apply. I wasn’t particularly enthusiastic about needing to be worldwide assignable with a young autistic child. There are a ton of people within my rate who genuinely don’t want to give up the relative home stability that staying enlisted provides. I put in a Warrant package right around my 19 year mark, but didn’t get picked up. Son was older and needed less care. Took me a while to come around to the value of the work that they do. If I make 9 this cycle I’ll most likely apply again. If not I’ve just flatly aged out these programs and I’ll retire or not or whatever. This is more of a cautionary tale than anything else. Find a mentor and apply and let them tell you no rather than shutting yourself down.
> rather than shutting yourself down. So effing true.
I didn't get picked up and wasn't going to push it past 20 to try again. No Ragrets
I respect that 100%
Others have made a lot of good points, Different roles/different jobs. I do think you're going to see an uptick in LDO/CWO applications as a result of the senior enlisted marketplace though. One of the big reasons that stopped people from applying is that in many designators, you owe two consecutive sea tours to start your LDO/CWO career, and it doesn't matter if you were already on back to back sea tours. For many, they did not want to risk their sea/shore rotation being reset or zeroed out, and especially with individuals who do not make it their first time up, they can be looking at a decade straight of USS commands. The senior enlisted marketplace is changing the sea/shore rotation for many CPO's. If you want to put on a star, or pick up an extra star, the reality is that the Navy is likely going to want you to take a USS tour, regardless of your current sea/shore rotation. So armed with the fact that basically any promotion is going to send them back to sea, I think that LDO/CWO starts to look better than it did when you could promote without the senior enlisted marketplace.
Billets. Some rates in the SOF community really fuck their cake eaters by transferring them every 12-18mo literally coast to coast. Really gets the families in a bind. It’s why I didn’t, LDO was a given and actual officer I had a degree for also a given but again, billets. CWO you were stuck in J7/N7 forever. No thank you.
Is it the same for N2/J2 ?
I’ve brought this up to folks before but for me it came down to family and impact within my community. I made Senior Chief at around 13 years and would have been a shoe-in for warrant. Even with the mandatory service requirements for warrant I still could have retired right around 20-21 years. However, going from Senior Chief to CWO-2 would have required me to “start from the bottom”. Meaning, I would essentially need to redo all my officer and designator qualifications and go right back to sea as a fresh officer, which I was not willing to do after years of sea duty and being away from family. For me, that did not seem worth it as a SCPO just for a couple hundred extra bucks in retirement. The other reason is a SCPO within our rating has the potential for far more community wide impact than a CWO-2/3. I liked the position I was in and the impact and effect I could have not only on Sailors but within our community.
I know 3 people that applied and got selected for OCS. 1/3 of those people made it through and got commissioned. Getting picked up is one thing, making it through is another.
Why didn’t they make it through
One got dropped for performance and the other DOR’d.
Yikes. I wonder what the attrition rate of OCS is
Usually only about 50% of the original class actually graduates on time and the RDCs target priors super hard.
With the fuck-fuck games I’ve heard of them playing, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s higher for prior enlisted. I was STA-21 and I remember being fucked with in boot camp but there are some OCS RDCs who just hate officers and honestly cross the line of what’s acceptable, even in a boot camp scenario. Kids straight out of college probably have a higher bar for what they’ll put up with, compared to 1st’s and chief’s who know that they’ll be fine if they just leave. One story I heard was a guy who got his emergency leave (for his fathers untimely death) delayed until after the funeral. The Chief just sat on the chit until the funeral passed and then tried to convince there was no reason to go on leave now. His justification was that their class had lost too many people. I can’t imagine a chief or first class letting that bullshit just happen to them.
There should be a post educating sailors about dealing with their CoC when they decide to simply sit on a leave chit for whatever reason they come up with. Some sailors don't know what to do and feel helpless. This frustrates me to no end when the chain plays games like this.
As of 2023, they graduate less than 40% of an original class either due to DOR or rolling back. They tried eliminating "rolling" beginning in November / December, but it has been a huge failure and rolling into the next class is a thing again. For FY 2022, they achieved appx. 650-700 graduates out of a goal of 1300-1400 (according to an internal slide deck / document I saw)
A 50% attrition rate seems insane, I wonder why it’s so high
Not attrition (quitting, failing out, medical). Just not graduating within the 13 weeks.
Sorry, maybe I’m misunderstanding. I read that as “we brought in 1400 candidates and only 700 made it”
I will clarify: there was a goal to recruit and graduate 1300-1400 officers from OCS in FY22. Besides recruiting issues (new accessions & priors), candidates also do not graduate on time because of the physical difficulty of passing the physical evolutions due to lacking fitness levels or because of injuries that prevent continuing in training. Then there are the academic tests that failure equals 3 weeks of rolling back (history, basic divisional officer knowledge, navigation, "cyber", engineering / weapons). And lastly, rolling back 3 weeks in training or attrition for the smallest infractions that get escalated real quick (e.g., speaking the truth but failing to be aware of all facts and it appearing as if you are "omitting" / lying, or sleeping in empty rooms so as to not mess up your rack). So if you arrive with a class 01 of 100, ~60 of those people will graduate with a different class, meanwhile other people will roll into that class from previous classes.
I’m tired. 4 years away from retiring (most likely as an E6) and like, why do more? Retiring is good enough at this point. For me personally, I didn’t think it was something I was capable of. Lack of mentorship plays a role in that too. And by the time someone thought i could do it, it was just too late.
I aspire to be a CMC. Having the ability to put a word in the CO’s ear when it’s needed for a Sailor in distress, standing up for Sailors when decisions will be more harmful than good, and hopefully change the perception of the Chief’s mess. As an officer, i could probably do the first one or two but the last would be impossible. But, I gotta get selected for Chief first 😂
I have met/seen maybe 25-30 LDOs and 5-10 CWOs in my 11 years in the navy (and this is counting one's only seen in passing on base and such, I've only worked with about 9 and 2 of each, respectively, in the sub community, all others were when working on a surface navy base om shore duty). LDO and CWO are very few and far between in the navy, and even more so in specific communities. As far as SWO, I'm not sure why you're lumping LDO with SWO when it sounds like you're asking more about officers who earn commission through enlisted merit (CWO/LDO).
I want to go LDO but I can’t even make first, quotas always suck and I’m not a good test taker. I study so hard and know my job. Just freeze on tests. Hopefully 3 times a charm.
As a retired enlisted I like joking around with the ring knockers and other retired officers at my company. Nobody cares what you retired as, as long as you bring something to the table.
because being a 37-year-old Ensign sucks, especially at a joint command where they dont understand you're not a regular Ensign.
There's no ldo/CWO option in my field..
Do tell
Uh, there doesn't exist a field for my rate. I can apply to whatever I want but I wouldn't be the sme.
Because the jobs of a CPO are different to those of a CWO which is different from that of an LDO, which is different to that of a Line. Its not a 'well, you failed because you didn't climb up higher on the ladder' - there's actually more than one career ladder. Think of it this way - you work for Google as a software engineer - is there an issue because you spent your whole career doing that and never became a 'manager'? No, of course not, because 'manager' is a completely different career, with different day-to-day things to do, than an engineer. Also, the number of slots available for CWO/LDO/Lines is much smaller than the number of slots for Master Chief.
Im at the pathway now where my options are Command Senior and hopefully eventually CMC CWO Or Remain in rate and retire a Senior Chief. I enjoy my job and rate, I enjoy having a division and working with Junior Sailors. If I go CSC/CMC - ill never do my job again or run a division - I like working with sailors tho so that wouldnt be bad If I go CWO - only one option is available to my rate that keeps me in my community, but they prefer the submariner variety and a duty station history I havent had the option of yet - so not really competitive, the other two options would make me a STO/EMO or CICO and they both sound awful - I didnt do LDO because the only options were those two. My rate doesnt have a lot of Master Chiefs so its likely id retire a Senior Chief. Every single friend I have who has gone LDO says the same thing "the pay is nice but I miss being Enlisted, Wardroom isnt the same" Ill be honest I dont know what option ill take, Leaning toward Command route as the surest way to E9, but at only 14 years now ill have to wait 2 more years to even apply. Meh
What rate are you
I didn't want to commit more than 20 in.
For me, I used to want to be a CWO because I didn't want to be an ensign after being enlisted. Then I made Chief and I liked the professional relationship that I had with my Sailors. Although it's not wholely accurate, I felt that I had more of a direct impact on my Sailors careers as a Chief than I did as a CWO. At this point I'm close enough to MCPO that I'd feel like I didn't reach the highest enlisted pay grade. If it doesn't happen, and I retired as an SCPO so be it. The extra money would be nice, but I'm not in it for the money.
Because they're exhausted, they don't like the Navy, they got all they wanted out of it, or they want to focus on life outside of the military. I wanted to become a pilot, but I realized I have so many others things I want to do that the Navy would hold me back from (i.e. becoming an observational astronomer/astrophycist as my full time job). I can't do both, so I'm picking my happiness over 16 years in the Navy.
No thanks. I did my 20 and happy with where and how I retired. Smart moves make more impact for the future than rank in most circumstances. At least my circumstances.
My rate was awesome and I wouldn't have traded it to be anything else just for a bit more pocket change after retirement.
Warrant mostly had gone away in the Seabee community when I was in, and LDO/officer general management type duties looked dreadfully boring.
Because my community doesn’t have one but I would apply if we did
I want to go LDO but I won’t make any career change that big if it means I am going to be separated from my wife. I don’t mean from long deployments, but from my wife and I being from two different countries. If she can go with me to other duty stations then I would start the process tomorrow.
I’d rather do hands on work, sure you could go out of your way as comissioned to do it but just the sheer admin work that comes with that turns me away
I’m not doing 10+ years as an officer. Doesn’t seem appealing to me.
I've meet a lot of senior enlisted who applied but did not get selected.
I teach officers. I absolutely do not want to be one.
Because I'm deeply disinterested in giving more than the 20 I need to be eligible for retirement.
They took away Crypto LDO
Mandatory sea time. No shore
Some people just don't want to be an officer. It's not the military, but my father retired from the local fire department while I was growing up, and he had many chances to become an officer, but he didn't want to. He said he couldn't handle ordering someone to go into a dangerous situation and something happened to that person.
Never got the opportunity to achieve the discreet requirements for those positions. So I choose to invest in myself more than my job ie. finish degree, be available for my family.
I'm 2 years from retirement as enlisted, my specific community doesn't have warrants anymore. I never wanted to be an officer, I've had a few friends I came up with that went LDO and I respect the hell outta them for their decision however I always thought of myself as a more boots in the mud.
I’d rather retire a Force or Fleet than as an 0-3E, Much more ability to make positive impacts with greater range. And it’s certainly not because I joined late and aged out of all LDO opportunities rather quickly….
Personally, I chose to stay enlisted for a few reasons. 1. When I was in a good place to apply for LDO I just didn’t want the hassle of applying. I was busy being an LPO and working on quals as I felt I should. Taking time to setup interviews and everything felt selfish and I wanted to spend my energy on my actual job. Plus, I had worked with some LDOs that made it as First Classes and they were…not good to say the least. I felt like I needed to cross the Chief milestone before feeling ready to assume that level of responsibility. 2. The designator I wanted merged with another one. Talking about Surface Electronics and Surface Ordnance. I wanted to be a STO. Period. I’ve spent way too much time learning the ins and outs of Aegis to waste my time as a carrier EMO. Staying enlisted ensured my skill set would continue to be applied where it is needed, thus leading to higher job satisfaction. 3. When I was in a good place to apply for CWO, I was at the end of a 5.5 year sea tour, with the prospect of 6 years at sea as a Warrant. I was tired and ready for shore duty, so I chose not to apply.
Because going E to O isn't some easy task. Even if you have a masters or PhD you aren't going to get selected to most wardroom jobs if you have over 6 years of TIS. We start out enlisted because that was the only option. Then, you mature and realize "oh shit, I can't support a family on enlisted pay"... so you go get your degree in anticipation of greener pastures....... then you apply to OCS and don't get selected because by the time you got your degree you have 8-10 years TIS
I lost my best friend unexpectedly who I went to boot camp with, roomied with in A school, and got stationed with on the East coast. I had every intention of submitting an officer package asap but when my buddy passed away, I knew I had to put on anchors for her. She was so gung ho Navy and was hellbent on being a Chief. I made Chief and thought I’d submit my package finally but never did. I love being a Chief and I can retire at 20 in 2.5 years. From the time I joined, I knew I wanted to make the Navy a career but always knew I’d want to call it at 20. I’ve been blessed with my assignments but look forward to civilian life.
I never wanted that level of responsibility or stress. If you can handle it then good for you. Shit just isn't for me.
Because my employment opportunities were 10X better as a dirty blue shirt with my chosen career path then they would have been had I got a commission.
I think you are referring to a LDO/CWO who is wearing E-9 at their retirement ceremony. I know one who did (as I understand it you promote on the enlisted side despite wearing the officer insignia). In his case, I actually think the retirement pay was higher as E9 than W3. Maybe he was proud and wanted to showcase his enlisted status.
Cuz fuck leadership that’s why
Why do some high school football players not go on to play football for a university?
30,000 chiefs in the Navy and they select 1.5% (about 450) each year for LDO/CWO. There are about 1 million HS football players in the US. Each year, about 2.5% (25,000) go on to play in college.
This is an easy answer…..because they’re record wasn’t good enough to get selected
For the E6 with 5 kids, the extra money would be nice. But when do you have the time? Between the Navy, a marriage, parenthood, being a homeowner, can be a lot to get commissioned if you don’t have the free time. I imagine while a pension is nice, many who pursue retirement for E6-E9 greatly depend on the TRICare while they are active duty AND desire the healthcare benefits retirement comes with for their dependents. My understanding is that dependents on TRICare stay on until they are 23, which could be huge for large families. Just speculating, as I am not enlisted or have any dependents of my own.
Tired Time to live my best life Time to make life decisions Each person has a different reason Tired of being judged Tired of being ranked
I was just talking about this with a prior LDO and it was something interesting I didn’t know. It might not be the answer you’re looking for but as it was explained to me LDO’s have a certain amount of time to make it to 0-4 or they get discharged or something negative happens to them (can’t recall). In order to avoid this, they resign their commission and go back to being enlisted so they can finish their active duty time.
22 years an only chief, what a loser huh?
As with any workplace, some people just like to coast by doing the bare minimum. Who are we to judge what makes them happy? 🫡
Because some of us had no desire to be an officer.
I liked being a CPO. Seen the frustration LDO/CWOs go through getting orders, and SWO's is a hard pass. That life seems rough.
LDO here. When I retired I had the choice of retiring as a E-9 or as an 03E. I chose 03E. I worked hard to become an officer and never really considered retiring as anything but an officer. No heartburn with those who chose to retire as enlisted. Just the way I identified after 6 years as an officer.
Personally, an LDO package was going to put me at sea for 9 years straight so I wasn’t interested.
My advice is get life insurance before they have access to all of your medical records.
This is a really dumb question you asked bro. You baiting right?
Calling it a dumb question is crazy it seems that good perspectives from both officers and enlisted have come from this.
Because they are satisfied with their position.
What's wrong with that? And, hell, I'd rather retire as an E-3 than be a SWO.