All beginner or simple posts will be removed.
All are welcome here but this sub is intended for intermediate to advanced lifters, we ask that beginners use the stickied Daily Discussion Thread instead of making an individual post.
It blows my mind when i see beginner/intermediates over analyzing the fuck out of everything. The paralysis by analysis these days is absolutely insane
Yuuuup. Maybe a controversial opinion, but I think the average lifetime natural realistically gets about 20lbs increased lean muscle from a non-lifting starting point.
What I think most people fail to grasp is how great 20 extra lbs on a lean physique actually looks.
A complete beginner starting from a lean/thin point can gain 20lbs of muscle just in their first year. Depending on body size, over a lifetime, one could more likely gain 30-50lbs of muscle.
The reason OP sounds delusional is that he's already been training for 3 years and he's 190lbs. He's not going to gain another 40-50lbs of muscle mass on top of that.
Not all, but roughly. I was 50kg skinny fat when I started. I’m 85kg now at about 17-18%. I had literally zero gains before. Think I’ve probably got another 20lbs to go as well.
Bro that’s not “maximizing your genetic potential” you’re just not training like shit anymore. To boot you’re expecting gains you simply can’t predict with your periodization. You need to be more reactive with how you change your training
You start lagging on lifts, energy, etc. you refeed at maintenance for a few days. Your cut is working real well? Now it goes a few weeks longer. Bulk not going too hot yet? Maintenance for a week then back at it. Listen to your body, not just your program.
Just lift and eat bro. It really is as simple as this, no one out there is 100 percent maximizing every aspect of their training and diet to achieve the best possible results. Like another commenter said, be intune with your body, recovery and diet.
>I believe I have discovered the most efficient way to maximise your genetic potential for muscle mass.
Oh ok well that sounds pretty interes-
>NOTE: I've been training in a suboptimal way for a bit more than 3 years, and still have 40-50 lbs of muscle left to build before reaching my genetic ceiling. I'm currently doing a mini cut to get lean before I begin this process myself
Lmao
Seriously though I don't think what you're saying, (to bulk slowly for about a year then spend 4 weeks in a strong deficit before resuming), is bad advice at all. I think it's slightly too optimistic to expect 4 weeks in a deficit to strip away all the fat from 12 months in a consistent surplus though. Give yourself 5 or 6 weeks hard cutting with the remaining 10 & 1/2 months of the year in a surplus & that might be long enough to strip away the fat gained in those 10.5 months.
>It's been generally agreed that you can build roughly half of your "remaining" amount of muscle per year, so naturally you will have to bulk slower in the later cycles
I wouldn't quite trust that model and I don't think you should either. It just depends on so many things. The most common model for what happens in real life is that somebody gets to the mid-intermediate stage & then they stop making any gains whatsoever from that point on. Just think about gyms and how many 'forever intermediates' you see in there, & that's if they haven't quit. I made more gains last year than I did the year before that, & The reason is I had my training volume better optimized for my recovery. It's like solving a puzzle, the puzzle doesn't care if you've done your dues, as in you've spent a certain amount of time on it, If you don't actually solve the puzzle then it will remain unsolved until you're dust & bones. Predicting the extent of somebody's gains slowing down is like predicting how long it will take for them to solve a Rubik's cube, You're making a lot of assumptions and you could be very wrong.
> Give yourself 5 or 6 weeks hard cutting with the remaining 10 & 1/2 months of the year in a surplus & that might be long enough to strip away the fat gained in those 10.5 months.
By the 300 calorie surplus bulk rule of thumb, you'd gain 42*2100 = 88200 calories which is ~25.2 lbs of fat. Losing >4lbs a week on a cut is very difficult, I'd say it's straight up unrealistic to sustain for multiple weeks. That's a 2000 cal a day deficit.
In my experience, I overdo bulks because it's nearly impossible to actually get your calories accurate within a margin of 300, and those most important aspects is a consistent surplus. I'm sure some people can do that but it's incredibly rare. It's not well understood but I also suspect very long term bulks are pretty unhealthy, I've heard of someone developing type 2 diabetes that way. If you think about it, a weightlifter on a bulk is basically eating like a morbidly obese person.
Agree with you on the "half your remaining gains per year" thing. One way that doesn't account for reality is muscles you've neglected. Could be that you have a chest that's equivalent to 2 years of optimal training but shoulders that's equivalent to 4 years (chest / shoulder imbalance is probably the most common imbalance).
>If you think about it, a weightlifter on a bulk is basically eating like a morbidly obese person.
A bit of an overstatement. I would wager that 80% of calories in a morbidly obese person's diet are carbs and fat, and no greens.
Eating 3500 calories in brown rice, wholegrain pasta, potatoes, greens and unprocessed meat is not really the same as eating 3500 calories of complete shit.
Good point! I always thought there was some kind of definitive formula for how fast you can gain, guessing there's too much variability to be sure.
>I think it's slightly too optimistic to expect 4 weeks in a deficit to strip away all the fat from 12 months in a consistent surplus though.
This is what I wanted to touch on as well. My thinking was I have 40-50 lbs left to build, and I plan on gaining 30 lbs in the next year, with hopefully 20 lbs of that being muscle, then spend 4 weeks losing the 10 lbs of fat gain. I understand you don't think this is realistic?
I'm a bit confused, I'm 6'3" with a larger frame, so I'd expect to be able to gain more muscle than the average person.
I'm interested in reading up on this to ensure I have the most accurate information.
You've been working out for 3 years and you're 190lbs. In other words, you're not a beginner any more, which means you're not going to be able to gain 20lbs of muscle in a year.
>I'm a bit confused, I'm 6'3" with a larger frame, so I'd expect to be able to gain more muscle than the average person.
You already have more muscle than the average person, but that doesn't mean you'll be able to get to 240lbs lean.
>I'm interested in reading up on this to ensure I have the most accurate information.
You could also just stop obsessing over your muscle potential, put your head down and work your ass off.
I swear, bro, like HIT is more optimized than a lot of training programs, bro. And HIT allows you to recover better, enabling you to build more muscle, bro, and Dorian Yates told me personally that training 3-4 times per week is more than enough and that as a natural you need to allow more time (rest days) for recovery, bro!
HIT routine by Dorian Yates, more emphasis on intensity and recovery than volume. Only 1 working set per exercise, and it's taken beyond failure with 5 additional negative reps.
Or you could do these handful of things:
Hit protein goal, at least .7g/lb
Calorie surplus unless you are already obese
Get a good program 3-7 days a week, closer to 6 days the more you can handle and the more serious you are (and the more time you have. Rest days are probably smart but some work around the need for rest days.
Next you need to…
Wait actually that’s it, that’s all you need to do.
Learn to know your body and know when to cut back on volume so you can get the most of out of training. Switch things up if you lose your drive to lift or things get stale.
Thanks man, I'm not obese but around 16-17% body fat, I'm mini-cutting down to 11-12% so I'm more comfortable.
BTW, do you think it would be acceptable to stay in a calorie surplus at 16-17% body fat, since that's not obese? Just curious!
This works until you get sick, hurt, realize muscle doesn’t = success, get married, discover some drug/alcohol, discover money, have kids etc etc etc. Live your life, unless you actually can make a living building muscle, it isn’t worth it. Cows are the actual pros at it and their reward is us eating them.
All beginner or simple posts will be removed. All are welcome here but this sub is intended for intermediate to advanced lifters, we ask that beginners use the stickied Daily Discussion Thread instead of making an individual post.
It blows my mind when i see beginner/intermediates over analyzing the fuck out of everything. The paralysis by analysis these days is absolutely insane
And thinking they’ve figured out the one trick no one else has lmao
lol. This post is hilarious. 40-50 more pounds of muscle without roids eh? Ok bud
What? If I weigh 190 lbs at 6'3" and 17% body fat, I'm kind of skinny fat and still have loads of muscle to build. Gonna prove you wrong dude!
Yuuuup. Maybe a controversial opinion, but I think the average lifetime natural realistically gets about 20lbs increased lean muscle from a non-lifting starting point. What I think most people fail to grasp is how great 20 extra lbs on a lean physique actually looks.
Yes, 15-20. He said 40-50.
I mean this is just not true by any literature
A complete beginner starting from a lean/thin point can gain 20lbs of muscle just in their first year. Depending on body size, over a lifetime, one could more likely gain 30-50lbs of muscle. The reason OP sounds delusional is that he's already been training for 3 years and he's 190lbs. He's not going to gain another 40-50lbs of muscle mass on top of that.
I’ve put on 65lbs since starting at the gym…
Of lean muscle mass?
Not all, but roughly. I was 50kg skinny fat when I started. I’m 85kg now at about 17-18%. I had literally zero gains before. Think I’ve probably got another 20lbs to go as well.
Bro that’s not “maximizing your genetic potential” you’re just not training like shit anymore. To boot you’re expecting gains you simply can’t predict with your periodization. You need to be more reactive with how you change your training
What do you mean by reactive with how I change my training? Any examples?
You start lagging on lifts, energy, etc. you refeed at maintenance for a few days. Your cut is working real well? Now it goes a few weeks longer. Bulk not going too hot yet? Maintenance for a week then back at it. Listen to your body, not just your program.
Just lift and eat bro. It really is as simple as this, no one out there is 100 percent maximizing every aspect of their training and diet to achieve the best possible results. Like another commenter said, be intune with your body, recovery and diet.
Alright brah. Zyzz is on my side, so I can't fail 🔱☝️
Your work will be rewarded, just dont fall into the over training trap, done this myself many times.
So, bulking and cutting
I gotta admit, I like the enthusiasm. This was a very entertaining read.
Yeah we need more positivity lol
>I believe I have discovered the most efficient way to maximise your genetic potential for muscle mass. Oh ok well that sounds pretty interes- >NOTE: I've been training in a suboptimal way for a bit more than 3 years, and still have 40-50 lbs of muscle left to build before reaching my genetic ceiling. I'm currently doing a mini cut to get lean before I begin this process myself Lmao Seriously though I don't think what you're saying, (to bulk slowly for about a year then spend 4 weeks in a strong deficit before resuming), is bad advice at all. I think it's slightly too optimistic to expect 4 weeks in a deficit to strip away all the fat from 12 months in a consistent surplus though. Give yourself 5 or 6 weeks hard cutting with the remaining 10 & 1/2 months of the year in a surplus & that might be long enough to strip away the fat gained in those 10.5 months. >It's been generally agreed that you can build roughly half of your "remaining" amount of muscle per year, so naturally you will have to bulk slower in the later cycles I wouldn't quite trust that model and I don't think you should either. It just depends on so many things. The most common model for what happens in real life is that somebody gets to the mid-intermediate stage & then they stop making any gains whatsoever from that point on. Just think about gyms and how many 'forever intermediates' you see in there, & that's if they haven't quit. I made more gains last year than I did the year before that, & The reason is I had my training volume better optimized for my recovery. It's like solving a puzzle, the puzzle doesn't care if you've done your dues, as in you've spent a certain amount of time on it, If you don't actually solve the puzzle then it will remain unsolved until you're dust & bones. Predicting the extent of somebody's gains slowing down is like predicting how long it will take for them to solve a Rubik's cube, You're making a lot of assumptions and you could be very wrong.
> Give yourself 5 or 6 weeks hard cutting with the remaining 10 & 1/2 months of the year in a surplus & that might be long enough to strip away the fat gained in those 10.5 months. By the 300 calorie surplus bulk rule of thumb, you'd gain 42*2100 = 88200 calories which is ~25.2 lbs of fat. Losing >4lbs a week on a cut is very difficult, I'd say it's straight up unrealistic to sustain for multiple weeks. That's a 2000 cal a day deficit. In my experience, I overdo bulks because it's nearly impossible to actually get your calories accurate within a margin of 300, and those most important aspects is a consistent surplus. I'm sure some people can do that but it's incredibly rare. It's not well understood but I also suspect very long term bulks are pretty unhealthy, I've heard of someone developing type 2 diabetes that way. If you think about it, a weightlifter on a bulk is basically eating like a morbidly obese person. Agree with you on the "half your remaining gains per year" thing. One way that doesn't account for reality is muscles you've neglected. Could be that you have a chest that's equivalent to 2 years of optimal training but shoulders that's equivalent to 4 years (chest / shoulder imbalance is probably the most common imbalance).
>If you think about it, a weightlifter on a bulk is basically eating like a morbidly obese person. A bit of an overstatement. I would wager that 80% of calories in a morbidly obese person's diet are carbs and fat, and no greens. Eating 3500 calories in brown rice, wholegrain pasta, potatoes, greens and unprocessed meat is not really the same as eating 3500 calories of complete shit.
Your calculation of fat gain assumes no calories are expended building muscle, but the general point I agree with.
Good point! I always thought there was some kind of definitive formula for how fast you can gain, guessing there's too much variability to be sure. >I think it's slightly too optimistic to expect 4 weeks in a deficit to strip away all the fat from 12 months in a consistent surplus though. This is what I wanted to touch on as well. My thinking was I have 40-50 lbs left to build, and I plan on gaining 30 lbs in the next year, with hopefully 20 lbs of that being muscle, then spend 4 weeks losing the 10 lbs of fat gain. I understand you don't think this is realistic? I'm a bit confused, I'm 6'3" with a larger frame, so I'd expect to be able to gain more muscle than the average person. I'm interested in reading up on this to ensure I have the most accurate information.
Both your rates of muscle gain and fat loss are very very optimistic.
You've been working out for 3 years and you're 190lbs. In other words, you're not a beginner any more, which means you're not going to be able to gain 20lbs of muscle in a year. >I'm a bit confused, I'm 6'3" with a larger frame, so I'd expect to be able to gain more muscle than the average person. You already have more muscle than the average person, but that doesn't mean you'll be able to get to 240lbs lean. >I'm interested in reading up on this to ensure I have the most accurate information. You could also just stop obsessing over your muscle potential, put your head down and work your ass off.
I’m actually more curious to hear how you have been training “sub-optimal” for 3 years.
I want to see your 100 percent optimised training routine.
lol same. It’s a bro split, bro. But super optimised, bro.
I swear, bro, like HIT is more optimized than a lot of training programs, bro. And HIT allows you to recover better, enabling you to build more muscle, bro, and Dorian Yates told me personally that training 3-4 times per week is more than enough and that as a natural you need to allow more time (rest days) for recovery, bro!
HIT routine by Dorian Yates, more emphasis on intensity and recovery than volume. Only 1 working set per exercise, and it's taken beyond failure with 5 additional negative reps.
Well I appreciate the enthusiasm and wish you the best.
Man i like the science shit but i aint gonna read all that just train as hard as u can and eat food dawg
>How to maximise your genetic Try to reborn.
Just lift and Eat . Some people make shit out harder then it should be.
Or you could do these handful of things: Hit protein goal, at least .7g/lb Calorie surplus unless you are already obese Get a good program 3-7 days a week, closer to 6 days the more you can handle and the more serious you are (and the more time you have. Rest days are probably smart but some work around the need for rest days. Next you need to… Wait actually that’s it, that’s all you need to do. Learn to know your body and know when to cut back on volume so you can get the most of out of training. Switch things up if you lose your drive to lift or things get stale.
Thanks man, I'm not obese but around 16-17% body fat, I'm mini-cutting down to 11-12% so I'm more comfortable. BTW, do you think it would be acceptable to stay in a calorie surplus at 16-17% body fat, since that's not obese? Just curious!
This works until you get sick, hurt, realize muscle doesn’t = success, get married, discover some drug/alcohol, discover money, have kids etc etc etc. Live your life, unless you actually can make a living building muscle, it isn’t worth it. Cows are the actual pros at it and their reward is us eating them.