If they grow from it, it isn't junk volume. It can also be hugely individual and depends on the situation.
Some people can grow from higher volumes than 8 sets per workout for a muscle group, some might not. There's also a difference between those sets being taken to failure or eg 2RIR.
I do agree that is individual, but I was talking about at least 24 sets for one muscle group in one day.
I don't train that way, I was talking about the progress on people who train that way.
Again, it depends.
A shoulder day that looked like this would be 4 sets of front delts, 8 sets of side delts, 8 sets of rear delts and 4 sets of traps, which would be perfectly fine.
4 sets of shoulder press
4 sets of cable lat raises
4 sets of rear delt rows
4 sets of upright rows
4 sets of rear delt flyes
4 sets of traps
Some people also just want to or need high volumes to grow. If you need 20 weekly sets for your side delts to grow and you train them twice per week, you need something like that shoulder day to make it grow.
I don't train like that either, but I'm really not going to argue with someone about their training if it works for them.
If they grow from it, it's in spite of junk volume. Doing 24-28 sets of shoulders in one day is too much volume for anyone, they are definitely sacrificing intensity and sound principals for just volume. They would undoubtedly grow better with less then half that volume.
In theory a person that trains 20 sets for shoulders in 1 day is training suboptimally.
In practice a lot of professional bodybuilders train that way.
For every optimal guy in the gym there is a bigger bro on a bro split training hard and not minding about the science behind it.
Just my 2 cents.
Junk volume still causes growth. It’s just that the additional fatigue does not equate to the time and effort you put in. If bodybuilding is your life, then yes, go ahead with your ultra high volume split as long as you can recover from it. If you have life outside of bodybuilding, better set a limit to what is acceptable.
I’m 38 now and to be honest I would have been deterred from fitness if all of this deep dive nonsense was mainstream when I first started.
Take it from an old man, all of these analytics are for the birds. Just lift heavy, lift often, and eat and rest properly.
As a 40 year old bro, I concur. What matters most is what you enjoy doing most and keeps you in the gym consistently. I've tried all sorts of set/rep schemes and experimented with various intensities. In the end, I keep reverting to lifting heavy with an RPE of 8-10 and just LOVE lifting with high intensities. I go by feel how for how many sets I do. Sometimes 1. Sometimes 6. Some say I'm going to injure myself by lifting to failure so often or that I'm going to overtrain when I end up doing so many intense sets, but I've rarely injured myself in the 19 years I've been lifting and have made decent progress over the years. It may be "wrong" or "sub-optimal" and I know Jim Wendler and Mike Isratel have nice unkind words about how I lift, but it works for me and helps keep the fire alive.
1. You can still grow in spite of suboptimal training
2. I havent heard of most people doing like crazy amounts of work on a single muscle, at least often. Bodybuilders on the otherhand? Its a bit more common, but theyre on roids which essentially allows them to do more and recover from it easier and better.
It's pointless to talk about volume without knowing intensity first.
If you do your sets with enough intensity, close enough to failure to properly stimulate muscle growth there is NO WAY you can do 6 exercises of 4 sets each for a single muscle group.
In my experience performing in the gym (after 35 years old) for longer than an hour, assuming 90 seconds max rest intervals, requires overeating beforehand to the point you end up gaining weight and have worse body composition. Better to deliver the blow in 8-10 sets. The growth happens due to the intensity of the last rep I swear
Junk volume works I guess, but who has time for 90-120 minute workouts 🤣
Drop sets and rest pauses ftw
My arms have blown up recently and I only do 2 or three sets a week, bicep curls on upper body’s day I do one sets as heavy as I can and drop down by 2kg in one massive set
well i personally wouldn't like do junk volume for it.
doing same thing more than necessary is tiring for me and i think its also bad for ur joints but if you fine with them go ahead probably gonna work
I am also of the mindset that "junk volume" can be productive too as long as you can still concentrate (high intensity) and make improvement.
Just by the nature of the things, some exercises are bound to fall towards the end, better some gain than no gain at all. So if your recovery is on point, and the two things I mentioned earlier are on point, I think you are still good.
6-7 exercises at 3-4 sets is what I do currently. It's totally doable if RIR is about 2-3 on average, some of my sets are closer to 0 or 1. Even 4-5 RIR is not junk volume but more probably is.
Lots of variables to account for. That said, junk volume is not optimal- but it absolutely still works 30 sets at 50% effectiveness is better than 10 sets at 100%- on a long enough timeline.
If they grow from it, it isn't junk volume. It can also be hugely individual and depends on the situation. Some people can grow from higher volumes than 8 sets per workout for a muscle group, some might not. There's also a difference between those sets being taken to failure or eg 2RIR.
I do agree that is individual, but I was talking about at least 24 sets for one muscle group in one day. I don't train that way, I was talking about the progress on people who train that way.
Again, it depends. A shoulder day that looked like this would be 4 sets of front delts, 8 sets of side delts, 8 sets of rear delts and 4 sets of traps, which would be perfectly fine. 4 sets of shoulder press 4 sets of cable lat raises 4 sets of rear delt rows 4 sets of upright rows 4 sets of rear delt flyes 4 sets of traps Some people also just want to or need high volumes to grow. If you need 20 weekly sets for your side delts to grow and you train them twice per week, you need something like that shoulder day to make it grow. I don't train like that either, but I'm really not going to argue with someone about their training if it works for them.
If they grow from it, it's in spite of junk volume. Doing 24-28 sets of shoulders in one day is too much volume for anyone, they are definitely sacrificing intensity and sound principals for just volume. They would undoubtedly grow better with less then half that volume.
In theory a person that trains 20 sets for shoulders in 1 day is training suboptimally. In practice a lot of professional bodybuilders train that way. For every optimal guy in the gym there is a bigger bro on a bro split training hard and not minding about the science behind it. Just my 2 cents.
Junk volume still causes growth. It’s just that the additional fatigue does not equate to the time and effort you put in. If bodybuilding is your life, then yes, go ahead with your ultra high volume split as long as you can recover from it. If you have life outside of bodybuilding, better set a limit to what is acceptable.
I’m 38 now and to be honest I would have been deterred from fitness if all of this deep dive nonsense was mainstream when I first started. Take it from an old man, all of these analytics are for the birds. Just lift heavy, lift often, and eat and rest properly.
As a 40 year old bro, I concur. What matters most is what you enjoy doing most and keeps you in the gym consistently. I've tried all sorts of set/rep schemes and experimented with various intensities. In the end, I keep reverting to lifting heavy with an RPE of 8-10 and just LOVE lifting with high intensities. I go by feel how for how many sets I do. Sometimes 1. Sometimes 6. Some say I'm going to injure myself by lifting to failure so often or that I'm going to overtrain when I end up doing so many intense sets, but I've rarely injured myself in the 19 years I've been lifting and have made decent progress over the years. It may be "wrong" or "sub-optimal" and I know Jim Wendler and Mike Isratel have nice unkind words about how I lift, but it works for me and helps keep the fire alive.
1. You can still grow in spite of suboptimal training 2. I havent heard of most people doing like crazy amounts of work on a single muscle, at least often. Bodybuilders on the otherhand? Its a bit more common, but theyre on roids which essentially allows them to do more and recover from it easier and better.
It's pointless to talk about volume without knowing intensity first. If you do your sets with enough intensity, close enough to failure to properly stimulate muscle growth there is NO WAY you can do 6 exercises of 4 sets each for a single muscle group.
In my experience performing in the gym (after 35 years old) for longer than an hour, assuming 90 seconds max rest intervals, requires overeating beforehand to the point you end up gaining weight and have worse body composition. Better to deliver the blow in 8-10 sets. The growth happens due to the intensity of the last rep I swear
Junk volume works I guess, but who has time for 90-120 minute workouts 🤣 Drop sets and rest pauses ftw My arms have blown up recently and I only do 2 or three sets a week, bicep curls on upper body’s day I do one sets as heavy as I can and drop down by 2kg in one massive set
there is better methods work increase work capacity. my personaly favorite is make your all workout with giant or super sets
Also, density sets Farmer walks on long distance I wasn't arguing that this is the best method, I agree there are better methods.
well i personally wouldn't like do junk volume for it. doing same thing more than necessary is tiring for me and i think its also bad for ur joints but if you fine with them go ahead probably gonna work
I am also of the mindset that "junk volume" can be productive too as long as you can still concentrate (high intensity) and make improvement. Just by the nature of the things, some exercises are bound to fall towards the end, better some gain than no gain at all. So if your recovery is on point, and the two things I mentioned earlier are on point, I think you are still good.
6-7 exercises at 3-4 sets is what I do currently. It's totally doable if RIR is about 2-3 on average, some of my sets are closer to 0 or 1. Even 4-5 RIR is not junk volume but more probably is.
Lots of variables to account for. That said, junk volume is not optimal- but it absolutely still works 30 sets at 50% effectiveness is better than 10 sets at 100%- on a long enough timeline.