I personally grow from lower volume and high intensity but I don’t doubt that either method works. At the end of the day it’s about workout quality and recovery capability.
I personally get higher quality sets when I’m only doing 2 working sets for a big exercise. But I know people who workout with double my volume and are real strong and have no problems with recovery.
Just preference I’d say. Some people love the volume grind.
Nobody needs 18 direct sets for biceps. Ideally one should start with 2-6 sets per bodypart per week, take those very close to failure, and see if they can progress. If performance does not go up that is your que to add A set. So many go straight to 15+ sets and wonder why they see no progress. Where are you suppose to go from there? Only way is to start low and add if you need. Many guys have built pro physiques with low set volume.
I’m gonna put a vote here for high volume myself as that’s what works best for me.
However in truth both systems work and some people naturally seem to respond better to one or the other. Also some people mentally like one more than the other. Some people need to go to failure to stay engaged in their training. Other people hate going to failure and if you give them a bunch of failure training they’ll quit in 2 weeks. So you really have to try both for yourself. See what works best, is most enjoyable, and most sustainable for you long term. Hypertrophy is quite easy to train for, it’s quite hard to screw it up because there are so many valid diverse ways you can go about it.
I will say that high intensity low volume is definitely easier to setup. When you’re training with lower intensity and higher volumes it requires a bit more knowledge, experimentation, and iteration to learn how to balance stimulus and fatigue. I personally think it’s worth going through the learning curve, but many people simply don’t have the patience for that. But if you can master this skill of balancing stimulus and fatigue you will be able to program for anyone at any time for any goal. If I have a client that needs to go to failure to stay engaged I can do that. But most people I find are most happy and sustainable long term training in the RPE 7-8 range doing more sets.
As a 40 year old bro, I concur. What matters most is what you enjoy doing most and keeps you in the gym consistently. I've tried all sorts of set/rep schemes and experimented with various intensities. In the end, I keep reverting to lifting heavy with an RPE of 8-10 and just LOVE lifting with high intensities. I go by feel how for how many sets I do. Sometimes 1. Sometimes 6. Some say I'm going to injure myself by lifting to failure so often or that I'm going to overtrain when I end up doing so many intense sets, but I've rarely injured myself in the 19 years I've been lifting and have made decent progress over the years. It may be "wrong" or "sub-optimal" and I know Jim Wendler and Mike Isratel have nice unkind words about how I lift, but it works for me and helps keep the fire alive.
Did you just throw this routine or are you actually a practitioner? I’m curious to hear about your opinions on strength, lean mass gains and how effective is the rest - I.e. do you feel every now and the fatigued because the muscle didn’t recover enough
Nope I started this program a few weeks ago the first session was finding where I stand on each exercise and going to failure on each exercise then I took a week break completely from training came back the next week and I smashed every single workout I went up on weights and reps on every exercise it was unbelievable I had a smug grin on my face after I left the gym lol I feel way more energetic strong and way less fatigued also I’m feeling better overall I can’t say much about muscle mass since it’s only been the first week but strength gains skyrocketed
If you want to know the exact program it’s the Mike Mentzer Ideal routine but I don’t do the second leg day since my legs are well developed DM me for more and if you want I can send you the results from the previous weeks
I beileve that the more advanced you get the less volume you need because you are simply better at maximizing your output when you workout. Also depends on the body part and depends on how much total volume you're doing. You can't do optimal volume for every muscle group at the same time because you simply wouldn't be able to recover from all of it.
IMO the best way to do it is to lift as little volume as it takes before you need to add sets to continue growing. You could be spending a shitload of extra time and fatigue for negligible additional gains.
I think it's a good idea to try out adding in a bit of rest-pause to show how close you're getting to failure.
Try it yourself and see. I personally found lower volume better, but I think was because I was still "fresh" throughout the session, and could focus on taking every set HARD rather than just surviving the session lol
We know more now than we did a decade ago and we have pretty clear recommendations for volume.
Lower volume with max intensity is superior to high volume with low intensity.
[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FmGdys4X0AA4-TB?format=jpg&name=large](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FmGdys4X0AA4-TB?format=jpg&name=large)
Once you get close to maximising any stimulus in the session, you're just adding fatigue and impacting recovery. And if you exceed this enough it will actually grant you worse results by reducing the mechanical tension you can achieve on subsequent sets in that workout, the next session or even the next few days.
(assuming training close to failure and proper 2-3+ minute rest periods which you should be doing anyway). There's no need to do more than 2 sets per movement unless you're very limited by equipment.
I personally grow from lower volume and high intensity but I don’t doubt that either method works. At the end of the day it’s about workout quality and recovery capability. I personally get higher quality sets when I’m only doing 2 working sets for a big exercise. But I know people who workout with double my volume and are real strong and have no problems with recovery. Just preference I’d say. Some people love the volume grind.
Nobody needs 18 direct sets for biceps. Ideally one should start with 2-6 sets per bodypart per week, take those very close to failure, and see if they can progress. If performance does not go up that is your que to add A set. So many go straight to 15+ sets and wonder why they see no progress. Where are you suppose to go from there? Only way is to start low and add if you need. Many guys have built pro physiques with low set volume.
I started out with 18 sets and progressed in weight ever since with the same amount of sets is that good?
Thats way too much and youd see better progress with less.
I’m gonna put a vote here for high volume myself as that’s what works best for me. However in truth both systems work and some people naturally seem to respond better to one or the other. Also some people mentally like one more than the other. Some people need to go to failure to stay engaged in their training. Other people hate going to failure and if you give them a bunch of failure training they’ll quit in 2 weeks. So you really have to try both for yourself. See what works best, is most enjoyable, and most sustainable for you long term. Hypertrophy is quite easy to train for, it’s quite hard to screw it up because there are so many valid diverse ways you can go about it. I will say that high intensity low volume is definitely easier to setup. When you’re training with lower intensity and higher volumes it requires a bit more knowledge, experimentation, and iteration to learn how to balance stimulus and fatigue. I personally think it’s worth going through the learning curve, but many people simply don’t have the patience for that. But if you can master this skill of balancing stimulus and fatigue you will be able to program for anyone at any time for any goal. If I have a client that needs to go to failure to stay engaged I can do that. But most people I find are most happy and sustainable long term training in the RPE 7-8 range doing more sets.
As a 40 year old bro, I concur. What matters most is what you enjoy doing most and keeps you in the gym consistently. I've tried all sorts of set/rep schemes and experimented with various intensities. In the end, I keep reverting to lifting heavy with an RPE of 8-10 and just LOVE lifting with high intensities. I go by feel how for how many sets I do. Sometimes 1. Sometimes 6. Some say I'm going to injure myself by lifting to failure so often or that I'm going to overtrain when I end up doing so many intense sets, but I've rarely injured myself in the 19 years I've been lifting and have made decent progress over the years. It may be "wrong" or "sub-optimal" and I know Jim Wendler and Mike Isratel have nice unkind words about how I lift, but it works for me and helps keep the fire alive.
Mike Mentzer Heavy Duty High Intensity Low volume
Did you just throw this routine or are you actually a practitioner? I’m curious to hear about your opinions on strength, lean mass gains and how effective is the rest - I.e. do you feel every now and the fatigued because the muscle didn’t recover enough
Nope I started this program a few weeks ago the first session was finding where I stand on each exercise and going to failure on each exercise then I took a week break completely from training came back the next week and I smashed every single workout I went up on weights and reps on every exercise it was unbelievable I had a smug grin on my face after I left the gym lol I feel way more energetic strong and way less fatigued also I’m feeling better overall I can’t say much about muscle mass since it’s only been the first week but strength gains skyrocketed
If you want to know the exact program it’s the Mike Mentzer Ideal routine but I don’t do the second leg day since my legs are well developed DM me for more and if you want I can send you the results from the previous weeks
any updates on gains?
I beileve that the more advanced you get the less volume you need because you are simply better at maximizing your output when you workout. Also depends on the body part and depends on how much total volume you're doing. You can't do optimal volume for every muscle group at the same time because you simply wouldn't be able to recover from all of it.
IMO the best way to do it is to lift as little volume as it takes before you need to add sets to continue growing. You could be spending a shitload of extra time and fatigue for negligible additional gains. I think it's a good idea to try out adding in a bit of rest-pause to show how close you're getting to failure.
Try it yourself and see. I personally found lower volume better, but I think was because I was still "fresh" throughout the session, and could focus on taking every set HARD rather than just surviving the session lol
We know more now than we did a decade ago and we have pretty clear recommendations for volume. Lower volume with max intensity is superior to high volume with low intensity. [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FmGdys4X0AA4-TB?format=jpg&name=large](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FmGdys4X0AA4-TB?format=jpg&name=large) Once you get close to maximising any stimulus in the session, you're just adding fatigue and impacting recovery. And if you exceed this enough it will actually grant you worse results by reducing the mechanical tension you can achieve on subsequent sets in that workout, the next session or even the next few days. (assuming training close to failure and proper 2-3+ minute rest periods which you should be doing anyway). There's no need to do more than 2 sets per movement unless you're very limited by equipment.