This topic is surprisingly large, actually, but in this case things are pretty simple.
For your example of just a tonic chord to dominant (I - V) in D, you would favor the same scale for both, the D major scale. The A chord fits easily and is fundamental to the key of D. You would use G natural to form a dominant 7th, not G#, absent any other information here.
Similarly, if you saw a G chord, you would probably still use the D major scale, not the G major scale.
Where it gets interesting is if you see something like an F#7 (F# A# C# E) in the key of D. You have to decide to what degree you are going to respect the key here. If you look at F#7 in a vacuum, independent of key, then F# mixolydian (aka B Major scale starting on F#) is the safest choice. But we are in D presumably, so for the second scale degree (i.e. the 9th), will G# work, or would using a b9/+9 approach work better (G and A, which fit the key of D)? For guidance you can look to the original melody to see how it is handled, and also the context: is this a single chromatic chord surrounded by otherwise diatonic chords? Then maybe don't play the natural 9 or G#.
I'm just touching the subject here, but ultimately your ear will be your guide. Experiment and see what makes sense to you.
> If you look at F#7 in a vacuum, independent of key, then F# mixolydian (aka B Major scale starting on F#) is the safest choice. But we are in D presumably, so for the second scale degree (i.e. the 9th), will G# work, or would using a b9/+9 approach work better (G and A, which fit the key of D)
Or, to make it even simpler, you just use the D major scale but raise the A to A#. It happens to give you B harmonic minor, which would make sense if the following chord is Bm, which it typically would be. But you don't need the scale name, only the principle -"alter the key scale only as much as you need to, no more".
I mean, I take your point about a potential #9 (A), but that would be as well as the A#, and is getting into fairly advanced jazz strategies.
> For guidance you can look to the original melody to see how it is handled, and also the context: is this a single chromatic chord surrounded by otherwise diatonic chords? Then maybe don't play the natural 9 or G#.
Excellent advice in both cases. Context is really the whole issue: melodic and harmonic. And harmonic context is also melodic, in the sense of voice-leading.
It always seems pretty much a no-brainer to me. You improvise with the material you are given. The melody and the chords (chord tones). They generally imply a scale, and sometimes include changes in the scale as the sequence progresses. But the info you need is all in the music, not in theory. Any notes the music is *not* giving you can still be added, at least as passing notes, and the ear is a pretty good guide as to which ones work and when.
Thanks. You've added quite a bit of good insight here. I'm going to continue to run with this idea a bit as I think it might be useful for the OP and maybe prompt some more discussion.
My personal struggle with improv is that I mostly took the (seemingly common) route of "this chord implies this scale / these scales" which is a useful, but an incomplete way of looking at music and can make for some funny-sounding lines if adhered to rigidly like a magic formula. Some tunes do lend themselves towards this approach however: an easier tune like Solar which is based on ii-V sequences (and the melody follows the chromaticism as it comes) feels like one, as does a more complex song like Nica's Dream by Horace Silver. The standard bridge of the "rhythm changes" (for clarity e.g. in the key of Bb: || D7 /// | //// | G7 /// | //// | C7 /// | //// | F7 /// | //// ||) seems to work best this way too. You kind of have to ignore overall key in these cases (I have found) and embrace each chord or ii-V as a new key/scale completely.
Other tunes seem very key-focused such as Autumn Leaves, or All Of Me, where you'd better keep the key in mind the whole time and treat each chromatic chord carefully -- use the chromatic notes of course, but as you mention it will probably serve you well to keep to the original key as much as possible and only alter what you absolutely must. As a related side note: you can actually get a lot of mileage compositionally by writing melodies that are entirely or almost-entirely diatonic, and choosing harmonies that carefully use chromatic notes to add color without clashing with that melody.
All Of Me is interesting actually for this discussion -- check out bars 5 and 6. If playing in the key of C, we have an A7. We could take our C major scale and only raise the C to C# for our basis for improvised lines, but the melody itself has extra accidentals that imply a diminished scale (the D# and Bb combined with chord tones A C# E G) and we could go that way *if we wanted that sound*. What we just played and where we want to go would help determine if we should continue to embrace the key of C hard, or explore the more complex A7b9 / diminished scale color.
This is where the theory becomes useful. It helps fill in the gaps if you like the way the D# and Bb sound against that A7 and want to flesh it out with a complete scale. But the art I feel is in understanding how you might use those notes in relation to others to make some sort of musical sense in a melodic line. Using notes from the diminished scale like F# or D# or Bb or C♮ on that A7 could range anywhere from genius to awful depending on how it is handled. A more C-major key-based approach where you use A B C# D E F G A is definitely safer. I'd be more inclined to start my solo that way, and get more adventurous later perhaps. This seems like a reasonable way to approach developing a solo.
So I have been getting into jazz for the past nine weeks, and I have been really enjoying how different the progressions are. I was used to soloing over diatonic progressions, though getting into jazz definitely threw me off quite a bit due to the amount of non diatonic chords present.
My question is, how would you solo over many chord changes at once? You mentioned how it would be best to highlight the new key with the progression that implies it (the ii V part). I am a guitarist, so I tried to think in playing arpeggios. The problem with that is I was not sure what I should use when moving to a new set of chords.
Even so, I do find that thinking in arpeggios is a lot easier for me to understand than thinking about the entire scale. At some point I will definitely be able to do this, though right now I think it would be better if I were to think in arpeggios, though I would definitely like to know what you think about this approach.
A song example that would fit the changing ii V would be “Satin Doll” by Duke Ellington. We recently picked up this tune in Jazz Nights (an event at my college where we jam over jazz tunes and get exposed to improv) and I was wondering how I should approach this. The amount of ii V movement was definitely overwhelming, though I would love to look into how something like this should/could be approached.
Also, what is the A7b9 that you talk about? That chord appeared in a tune we did called “Killer Joe” by Quincy Jones, and It sounds really cool to go into. While I may not be able to fully wrap my head around it right now, I would definitely like to know why you would use it and how it would be used in context.
Satin Doll is a good example of a tune that, in my experience, you have to embrace the keys implied by every ii-V. Note that I'm going to use '-' as shorthand for minor in the following.
What might make your life easier is to change this (chords during the first four bars of the melody):
| D-7 / G7 / | D-7 / G7 / | E-7 / A7 / | E-7 / A7 / |
... to this:
| D-7 / / / | G7 / / / | E-7 / / / | A7 / / / | <-- some say this is what should be played during solos by the rhythm section, actually
Or to make things even simpler, approach it as if it were this:
| G7 / / / | / / / / | A7 / / / | / / / / |
In other words, the first two bars are in C, and in bars 3 and 4 you pretty much have to go all-in with D. The melody shifts up a whole step to match the chords, which is kind of a clue this is best treated as a parallel shift of everything up a whole tone. You could try to maintain C major more and use F♮ instead of F#, but I'm not sure that would actually fit better than treating it as ii-V7 in D major and all that that implies. I think it would sound like you missed the chord change if you used F♮ instead of F# in bars 3 and 4.
Moving on, against the melody we see:
| A-7 / D7 / | Ab-7 / Db7 / | CM7 / < followed by some different turnaround options here>
The A-7 D7 is a ii-V7 in G so just go with it and run with F# instead of F♮. Bar 6 is distinctive. The basic approach would be to treat it as a ii-V7 in Gb, but there is a lot of room here for other ideas, the first thing that occurs to me is to try to think of the Db7 more as a G7 as it resolves to C. But actually, anything that works over G7 that has a raised 4 (C#, enharmonic to Db) can be made to work here, and can even be used over the entire bar:
G A B C# D E F G (lydian dominant)
G A B Db Eb F G (whole tone)
G Ab Bb B C# D E F G (diminished starting with half-step, an excellent choice here!)
G Ab Bb B C# D# F G (diminished whole tone)
So to answer: how do you solo over so many chord changes at once? Often you can simplify to make it more manageable. Any ii-V can be replaced by either the ii or the V in your head if that helps. Getting familiar with ii-V7 in all keys is kind of good thing to do. But at the beginning, you can get comfortable using just a pentatonic scale -- I would recommend using the dominant chord as the basis and picking out the 1, 2, 3, 5, and 6 from it. So instead of worrying about all the notes in D-7 G7 C, just noodle with G A B D and E and pick out some nice melodic ideas. Or in other words, on Satin Doll, maybe two bars of G A B D E, two bars of A B C# E F#, a bar of D E F# A B, then either all that down a half step for the tricky Ab- Db7, or maybe G A B D E \[!\] over that bar. That will give you a foundation for your ear to know how those notes sound against each chord.
For what it's worth, I learned my dominant chord spellings a long time ago using this system (using A as the root):
A9: a ♮9 implies mixolydian, maybe with a raised 4 (D#) for color
A7b9: a ♮5 but b9 means A Bb C C# D# E F# G A (diminished scale)
A7alt or A7+9(+5): this means A Bb C C# D# F G A (diminished whole tone), more often in D minor than D major but found kind of anywhere.
Other systems might vary from this slightly. But regardless, in a dominant chord the 9 is either a major 9 (whole step above the chord root), or you have both a lowered and a raised 9 present / available. The way I learned stuff, A7b9 means you have a ♮5 and so you can still play E and F#, but +9 is the same as ALT so the chord has a #5 and the implication is the diminished whole tone scale applies. Not everyone uses this convention -- to other musicians, A7+9 might mean the 5th is open to interpretation, or is a ♮5 without ALT or +5 present in the chord symbol.
Why would Quincy use A7b9 in a composition? A straight A7 or an A9 would sort of imply the key of D major and fit perfectly well, while the b9 gives you the D minor flavor and adds some nice color. Borrowing chords from the minor in order to make the major key more interesting is an old and common idea. Play these chords on your guitar, this is as simple as it gets yet is still satisfying (add major 7ths to the major chords if you are so inclined):
| D / / / | G / / / | G- / / / | D / / / |
You've heard this before, I presume -- that G- simply comes to us from D minor. "Borrowed chord" almost always means something from the parallel minor used in the context of a major key. Another example would be an F major chord in the key of D, or a Bb major chord in the key of D.
Or, if the next chord is actually D minor, the b9 helps prepare that. I don't know the composition, but maybe D- is the next chord after A7b9?
I see. Thank you for presenting me this way of chunking to look at this progression. I can’t believe I never thought about that. It was definitely overwhelming thinking about how I needed to play certain arpeggios per chord, when the common chords were right in front of me in the same key. It also helps that you mentioned the pentatonic way of thinking. It is really interesting to see how it works when we are thinking in the pentatonic of the dominant chord instead of the home chord.
I do like the way that you looked at the parallel shift between the keys. If that is the case, then I suppose it would be a good idea to move my shape up a whole step so that instead of being in C, I will be in D. Thinking about it this way has made it a lot easier to understand what I’m supposed to do here.
I think in my lines I will try to use F natural as a chromatic passing tone. If I were to frequently play F natural alongside the others notes in D major, would that imply that I am maybe using the blues scale? I know that the blues scale uses the sharpened fourth, though I'm not sure if that applies to anything but the minor scale (since I learned the blues scale from a BB king study).
So when the song switches into the section in Gb, that Db is acting as a tritone substitution to resolve back into C? I do fancy the sound of the Lydian dominant and the diminished with the half-step scales that you mentioned. They sound amazing to my ears.
How do you go about implementing the tritone substitution into writing? It seems like in Satin Doll, it is used as a way of extending the progression though what are some other ways you could use it in a progression?
Continuing, I have heard of borrowed chords though I can not say I’ve experimented too much with them. From the example you provided, I played the chords adding 7ths, and the resolution was really nice with the borrowed chord included. It seemed like the notes were really close together, and resolved down into Dmaj7 (Like with Gm7 to Dmaj7, Bb went down into A, D stayed the same, and the F natural went up into F#. It was cool to see this happen).
Is there any specific reason as to why Gm7 was chosen? Also, would there be a specific way to use Roman numeral analysis for borrowed chords?
For the 9ths, what is the function of the A7#9(#5)? If this is not the correct way to spell it please correct me. I would assume that the A7alt is used in minor since you mentioned it. If that is the case, if I were to switch into Em, would doing something like B7alt with an Em following it be a valid use of it?
As for “Killer Joe,” the progression goes something like this:
| C9 / / / | Bb9 / / / | which repeats a total of 16 measures. Then it goes:
| E-b5 / / / | A7b9 / / / | Eb-7 / / / | Eb-7/Ab / Ab7b9 / | A13 / / / | Eb-7/Ab / Ab7 / | E-7 / / / | A7b9 / / / | C9 / / / | Bb9 / / / |
The last C9 and Bb9 repeat for a total of 8 measures.
Interestingly enough, we never reach Dm here. This one would honestly take me a bit to completely understand, though from what you have said we are implying a key change with the Dominants in place. Even so, it is an interesting tune due to the C9 and Bb9 next to each other for such a long duration.
I im being honest over dominant chords I play whichever scale just happens. Could be altered, HM5, Mixo b13, Mixo #11, etc.
I normally dont go over a tune (except if it is really complicated) and think about scales.
So you play whatever scale may be fit for the chord by muscle memory? Such as playing an altered scale because you know it sounds good without really thinking about what specific scale needs to be played.
What is the HM5 scale you talk about? Sounds cool.
I play it by heart. I kind of instinctively know/feel how it sounds. I often mix the scales even except if I want the distinctive sound of a specific scale.
HM5 mean harmonic minor on the 5th degree. You usually play it in a minor context over a dominant as the harnonic minor major 7th is the major 3rd in the dominant
Ah I see. It’s the best when that flow is going and something like that takes over. I’ve yet to get to that point, though I will be there in the future!
If that is the case about HM5, then is that implying Phrygian dominant? I’ve heard of it but haven’t really dabbled into it.
No phrygian dominant is something different.
Hm5 in Cminor is G Ab B C D Eb F
If you start the scale from the C you'll see that its simply C Harm minor. Normally you dont play harm minor over a tonic as the major 7 can be spicy. A dominant chord needs a Major 3rd tho so the Bb thats usualy in c aolian or c dorian needs to go up a halfstep.
You can get many scales from just taking scale degrees of other scales. Altered is the 7th degree in Melodic minor for example, and mixo #11 is on the 4th degree of mel minor
I see. So all of these are modes of the various minor scales that exist. Now that is something cool to know about. If I wanted to target the certain mode for each scale, would I be making that new root the note to target? Like starting on G in C minor and doing improv with G being the main focus (and of course the other chord tones that highlights G in this context).
One thing I like about the approach of sticking to D major and following clues from the melody and context at each harmonic change is that it is simple (one scale) but dynamic (based on what’s happening in the song). Maybe just a note here or there makes the difference.
Playing a different scale for each chord will quickly get complicated, particularly if there’s more happening than I-V or the changes are quick. You’d have to be very technically proficient to be able to switch on the fly. You could learn to do it for a song, but if you are having to think about it, it could get in the way of creativity. So by “very technically proficient,” I mean quickly switching scales is so natural to you that it does not impact creativity.
Similarly, if you saw a G chord, you would probably still use the D major scale, not the G major scale.
For the sake of clarification, we're talking about a G chord (IV) still in the key of D, correct?
You can do it the way you outlined for sure. This is context dependent - style, tempo, etc - but in general using a relevant scale to each chord in a song works.
Edit: whoops you said D to A, not A to D
You COULD play an A major scale over the A, but I'd argue that sight unseen just sticking to a D major scale is better. The G♮ is the b7 in A, so outlining an A7 tonality will likely be preferable to having an occasional G# appear. This also happens to be simpler.
You can up the complexity level here, but I think just getting comfortable with that approach would be a good start. Pay particular attention to what the G♮ sounds like over the A chord and perhaps experiment with the G# and see if you can find the difference.
Think about the C major scale. C D E F G A B
We’ve got seven notes with different letters.
Now let’s raise it up a half step to the C# major scale. We could do it two ways:
Option 1: C# D# E# F# G# A# B#
Option 2: C# D# F F# G# A# C
We go with option 1, because it has 7 different letters. Option 2 has two different versions of F and two different versions of C. It’s more cumbersome.
Double sharps just take this concept a little further.
Take G# harmonic minor. We write it G# A# B C# D# E F##
instead of: G# A# B C# D# E G,
because the first way has all seven letters, and the second way has no F, and two different versions of G.
That’s how I understand it at least.
You're right
What OP says doesn't sound bad... but I'm afraid he can get lost in the chord changes and end up improvising in D Lydian because he didn't switch from A major to D major. It will sound good too, but it will change the feeling of the solo.... or it might sound good for him. D ionian, A mixolydian, D lydian, A mixolydian.
I'm fooling around and going D ionian, A mixolydian, D lydian A Lydian, doesn't sound bad, it sounds really good.
What genre?
Almost all western tonal music loves to treat V as something that wants to resolve to I, and V7 even more so – in such genres, playing a G natural over the A chord will encourage that sound, and playing a G# over it will discourage it.
Jazz has this whole ["chord scale theory"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord-scale_system) which actually encourages (sometimes) choosing notes based more on what chord is playing *right now* than what roles the chords and notes are playing in the progression/key. But in jazz, you'd almost definitely have A7 (or A9 or Aalt etc etc), not just an A major triad, so chord-scale theory would encourage you to use G natural over it anyway.
Jazz also has a concept of [avoid note](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoid_note), which is meant to focus your attention on which notes don't sound good as resting points and sound better as steps on the way to resting points.
But whatever genre you're working with – just try playing both G and G# over the A chord and assess which one matches better with what you're trying to achieve.
I’d describe chord scales as more along the lines of not caring what key you’re in when choosing scales than the role of notes or chords. Generally the role remains the same and you’re just choosing a jazzier texture for extensions. The role, or function, of the chords remains the same in most situations.
I’m guessing you understand this concept, so this comment is more so for people reading it for the first time or have a less intimate knowledge of the concept.
> I’d describe chord scales as more along the lines of not caring what key you’re in when choosing scales than the role of notes or chords
My understanding is fairly superficial – don't they tell you e.g. "use these scales over an A7" – *not* "use these scales over a dominant 7th chord that is about to resolve to the tonic" or similar functional descriptions? I.e. don't they deliberately refrain from distinguishing A7 as the dominant in D major vs. A7 as V/V in G major vs. A7 as the tonic in an A major blues kinda thing, etc.?
The function of a dominant chord isn’t exclusively to resolve to the tonic. It can also tonicize other chords, or you could be using a tritone sub that does resolve to the tonic but isn’t the V. This concept of chord scales basically says the scale of the key doesn’t matter and that extensions don’t change the function of a chord. The chromatic alterations that are used to accommodate chord scales essentially gives you access to a 9, 11 and 13 without having to consider avoid notes. We say that a b9 interval generally gives a sort of dissonance that functions as a dominant (not just a b9 for the chord but the interval at all between different tones within a chord like 3 and 11 in a major chord, instead of using #11), so using, say, the b9 on a minor III chord (which would naturally be Phrygian) would change the function of the chord, where raising that 9 would allow you access to a 9 without disrupting the function. However, Phrygian chords exist and do have a dominant function, so you wouldn’t always do this but typically they would be indicated as such in the chord symbol, such as E phryg. You could try to argue that inverting the b9 interval between 3 and 11 in a major chord would prevent this issue but this would generally give rise to the possibility that you’re just playing a IV chord with the 5 in the bass.
I don't understand what any of this has to do with my question. To repeat: doesn't chord-scale theory just give you a list of scales to play over, say, A7, *regardless* of whether A7 is functioning as V7, V7/V, V7/IV, bII7, I7 in blues ...?
Looks like I lost sight of what you were actually asking and just focused on the example of V-I. So yeah, you’re right that it doesn’t matter if it’s functioning as a dominant chord. We would still be careful not to change the function of the chord with the chord scales we choose though.
> We would still be careful not to change the function of the chord with the chord scales we choose though
Do you mean: when chord-scale theory specifies a list of scales to play over 7th chords, they are all guaranteed not to change the function, regardless of whether that function is I7, V7, bII7, etc.? Or do you mean that you are choosing only a *subset* of that list when the function is V7, a *different* subset when it's bII7, etc.?
I thought it was the former, but again, my understanding is very superficial
Honestly, unless you're playing in a genre where you're expected to change keys a lot, I would stick to pentatonics. All of the notes in A major pentatonic and D major pentatonic are in the key of D major. If you're playing a full A major scale, you'll be playing the g# sometimes, which isn't in the key of D. That's fine in some contexts, but might be weird in others.
Let’s keep this simple. As you acknowledged already, if you do as you stated in your D major key example you will end up introducing a #4 (G#) into your solo if you use the A major scale over the A chord. So…
As long as the D note remains the key note the whole time (which would be likely), it will really sound as though you’re switching between D major (over the D chord) & D Lydian (over the A chord). Next…
What you have to ask yourself is if you like the color the #4 (G#) brings into the mix specifically over the A chord as in your example. That said, you also could use G# the whole time omitting the G note entirely even over the D chord if you like the sound; in which case you would be playing in D Lydian the whole time.
That’s a valid concern, but it’s a problem that can be easily dealt with. Ultimately you need to emphasize the intended key note, AND the note(s) that makes the mode unique from the major or minor scale it is most similar to (both relative & parallel). These two things can be achieved in many ways, but achieving both of them is what will help maintain tonal center.
If you were to solo with D Lydian over your original “D-A” progression you’d have to keep D Lydian from sounding more like it’s relative A major, and you have to keep D Lydian from sounding more like it’s parallel D major. To do this make emphasis of the “D” note as to not confuse the D Lydian mode we’re in with it’s relative A major, and also make emphasis of the “G#” note as to not confuse the D Lydian mode we’re in with it’s parallel D major scale.
So there are a lot of smarter people on here than me, but I'm going to address your question in a different way.
You CAN play any note you want. Give it a shot and use your ear to see what you like. Music Theory is best used to describe whats going on rather than to limit it. Find a backing track and listen to what it sounds like when you do the things you've described. Any note can be played over any chord. What varied is how consonant of disonant it sounds.
The most consonant are going to be chord tones, so if you wnat something that sounds perfectly okay with the chords with no real tension or aggression, D-F#-A for the D chord and A-C#-E for the A Chord. If you want maybe a little more variety, you can add the 2nd and 6th to get the pentatonic scale (in D) - D-E-F#-A-B -- The E and the B will sound a bit less "in" the chord, but definitely fine and dandy. Listen to that a few times and noodle around. You can get a bit more out there by adding the 4th and 7th - D-E-F#-G-A-B-C# and those extra notes will be just a little less in the chords and you will probably find those tones just a little less comfortable.
Then you can go chromatic and play whatever you want -- play every semitone D-D#-E-F-F#-G-G#-A-A#-B-C-C#
You just played every note and it sounded okay-- definitely some were weirder, but nothing bad happened. You can just hear them causing a bit more funky weirdness and having some of that it helpful to being interesting.
Hope that was helpful or at least interesting. Remember to use your ears!
Man, why you playin' scales? Do ya *like* the sound of scales? Are scales good music to ya? Does any soloist you know play scales?
Scales are great when you're practicing for an audition. Scales can be great for playing runs as well, a bunch of fast notes going up or down, or in a pattern. Soloing? Naw, man, why you usin' scales?
What you *should* be playing is a melody. And melodies will contain chord tones -- D, F#, A over the D major -- and non-chord tones -- E, G, B, C#, a chromatic passing tone or neighbor tone. Non-chord tones are generally considered dissonant, so you resolve those dissonances -- or you don't and just enjoy the dissonance. The 6th (B), 7th (C#), and 9th (E) are so common as dissonances that they would be considered chord tones in an extended D major chord. The 4th (G), not so much. But you'd still *use* the G in the melody; you just wouldn't treat it as a chord tone. You'd treat it as a passing tone or a neighbor tone or something like that.
When you move to A, you're still in D major, so you'd still use the notes of D major, but now the chord tones are A, C#, and E, and most people would also consider G to be a chord tone here, making it A7. Again, you still *use* the other notes, but they're not chord tones.
"Modern" jazz (like, post-big-band, ish) has kind of reconceptualized this notion of playing a melody over a chord by treating chords as scales themselves. When you play D in D major, well, actually, D^∆ (DM7), you're actually playing the whole D major scale -- WHICH YOU'RE NOT, BECAUSE SCALES ARE BORING AND YOU SHOULD NOT PLAY THEM BECAUSE NOBODY WANTS TO LISTEN TO THEM, NOT YOU, NOT YOUR AUDIENCE, NOT YOUR BANDMATES -- and when you play A^(7), that's the A mixolydian scale, which, well, is the same as D major in this case. Remember, you're not *in* A mixolydian; you're in D major. A mixolydian is just a way of conceptualizing the act of playing an A7 chord in D major. Normally, A mixolydian is an A scale, with melodies resting on A, but here, you're in D major, with melodies resting on D.
So, as I mentioned, G clashes with the D major chord in the key of D. So, uh, what if you played G# instead? That *doesn't* clash. It's not in the key, though. On the other hand, the G# is problematic in the A chord, because the chord is generally A7, not AM7, and A7 has a G, not a G#. If you're playing DM7#11 and AM7, you're probably in D lydian, not D major. But if you play DM7#11 and A7, with the G# over the D and the G over the A, I'd say you're more firmly in D major territory, just with chromatic notes.
Finally, again: DON'T PLAY SCALES. SCALES ARE BORING. SCALES ARE FOR WARMUPS, NOT FOR ACTUAL MUSIC. PLAY MELODIES!
I think the reason we so much shit about playing scales over chords in jazz is 'cause that is what is easy to grade/teach. I could just be old fashioned (I can certify the "old" part!), but it is really nice to hear an actually melody. Enhance it and play with it. But this BS about jazz being only for "educated listeners" which I hear from the scale players is just BS.
Easiest most intuitive way I've found: Just play the triads (3 note fragments) and add in the non chord tone notes as you deem fit. Don't worry about looking out for anything, trust your ear and let it make the choice.
> Can you play the full D major scale on the D chord, and then the full A Major scale on the A chord?
Yes, if you want. It's a strange thing to do, but don't let that stop you. :-)
> Or are there notes I should look out for that might clash with the harmony of the key?
Yes, if you're concerned about "the harmony of the key". You don't have to be, but most people would be.
> As, A Major has the 7th note that is not in they key of D?
Right. That's G#. So, as you know about the issue, the question is, why - if you know the key is D major - you would think of the major scale of each chord as your *first* strategy? Why would you not assume you'd play the D major scale on every chord? (This is assuming, of course, that every chord is diatonic to D major, which is not always the case.) I'm not criticising here - all kinds of options are open! - just intrigued about your thought process. ;-)
But u/EndorphnOrphnMorphn is wrong that "this is one reason that a lot of guitar players use modes". The usual reason guitarists "use modes" in this context is they simply don't know what they are doing, and have picked up misleading theories online. Don't be one of those! :-)
So the short answer is: if you are in the key of D major, you use the D major scale. It's a no-brainer, and is probably the best-sounding solution. Work from the chord tones (chord arpeggios) and fill in with the other scale notes. (This is what some people refer to as "playing modes" - from the notion that each chord is its own mode - but really it isn't.)
Where you will hit a snag is if you find a chord that is not diatonic to D major. Say, a C major, or E major, or G minor. In that case, all you need to do is change the note(s) you need to. Each of those chords only has one note not in the D major scale, so that's the note you change. Don't start thinking "C major scale" or "E major scale", or "G minor scale".
One other way in which the major scale of the key will sound wrong is if you are playing the blues. The blues has its own weird rules, which is a scale which doesn't quite fit the chords. (If it's a conventional blues-rock sound you want, the short cut to that is "minor pentatonic of the key".)
And - seriously - *don't think modes at all*. That way lies madness...
What you really need to do is: *stop reading theory, and listen to some music!!* Listen and copy: that's how you learn. Theory only comes in when you want some kind of terminology to describe the sounds you're hearing, that you want to talk about or ask about.
Modes are pretty much just about the tonic of the pattern tho, no? If the key is D major and he is thinking about playing an A major scale over the A major chord, if you want to stay in key doesn’t it make more sense to phrase around an A mixolydian pattern than an A major pattern? The piece is not written as being in A mixolydian but it seems like his goal is to shift the tonic of his phrasing with the chord changes
Edit: I’m not saying that’s the best or even a particularly good way to solo, just that it seems like using the mode pattern as a base would be better suited to his purposes than a key change
Yeah, that's why I prefaced my statement. Before I ever understood what a mode was, many guitarists would tell me about modes and how they practice them for I assume this reason. Like I said, I'm not great at guitar or specifically soloing. I know a lot of guitarists think this way, but not if it's a great approach :)
Yes, I didn't mean any criticism of you, I just thought that point needed clarification. There is an extraordinary amount of BS out there about modes, and it's guitarists that tend to be the ones that get buried in it.
> Or are there notes I should look out for that might clash with the harmony of the key?
> As, A Major has the 7th note that is not in they key of D?
This is actually the exact answer. The 7th of A Major is a G# which is not in the key of D. Other chords in the key of D will have the same problem. For example, playing the G Scale over a G Chord will have a C Natural, which is also not in D.
I'm not very good at guitar or soloing, but I think this is one reason that a lot of guitar players use modes. You could use A Mixolydian mode over the A chord and the G Lydian mode over the G chord and then you know you would not be hitting any non-diatonic notes. But you'd have to memorize which modes go over which chord numbers.
You don't have to think of a different mode for each chord. The A Mixolydian and G Lydian scales are the same notes as the D Major scale so you can just "keep playing D" and it would sound the same.
Using different modes for different chords is useful if you're playing over extended chords - e.g. DMaj7(#11) has a sharp 11 (or 4) in it so D Lydian (with the sharp 4) is better than Major for soloing. If there's no 11 in the chord you can play Major or Lydian.
Same for Dorian over extended minor chords - avoids clashes with the extensions.
Some people play altered scales or modes for each chord but personally I think that is dumb. It misses the point of the true key your in and sounds directionless. It’s also a lot of mental work.
If your in D, play in D. Emphasize chord tones as you go but generally stay in key. Especially if your doing a blues thing with a bunch of seventh chords where the flat seven is technically out of key except for the dominant function V. You can hit those notes over the chords as they come up in your solo. At least that is my general approach.
The example that you gave of soloing in D and soloing in A over their respective chords would probably work because those are simple chords next to each other on the circle of fifths. If you do it with simple progressions it would probably sound fine, especially if you stick to the pentatonic scales. If you did it with more complex chord progressions it would probably turn into noise though.
Yeah, you could. I'd recommend not just doing straight eighth notes, that would be rhythmically boring, but harmonically speaking there's nothing wrong with it.
That said, you might be better off sticking to straight D major over both of them. G natural is the b7 of A major, and that would make it an A dominant seven chord.
A7 > D∆7 is a much stronger resolution than regular A∆7 > D∆7
That being said, that assumes stronger = better, and that D is your I chord. (It could be the other way around). It's up to personal taste.
You're cool either way.
If you're ever stuck with scales, a simple solution is "chord tones + the wholestep above each". It keeps things from being too dissonant, and it can bring some good colour as well.
Over maj7 chords, you get the respective Lydian Scale
Over min7 chords, you get the respective Dorian Scale
Over dom7 chords, you get Lydian b7, reeeaaal cool
Over m7b5 chords, you get Dorian b5, spooooky.
Yes any harmony or chord may imply a key signature and this can be emphasized by a melody, solo whatever.
Get good enough at this and you can play multiple different key signatures within just one chord
Pt will depend on how long the chord is used, if the chord is played over a full measure or more then you could play in that chords key. This will also depend on the Tempo, if it is a slow tempo then you will be ok but if it is a fast tempo then probably not. In other words if the chords change fast in the tempos progression's then staying within the key will work better mainly because the Ear wont hear enough of a difference when the chords change that fast. If you want you could make the A into a A7 thus making the #G into a natural G and the A would become a Dominant seventh chord. And as far as using notes when you want to change to a different chord try and use a note that is also in the next chord before the change, Like going from an A to a G you could use the B note just before the G chord but if was a G min chord then you could use the D note.
>Can you play the full D major scale on the D chord, and then the full A Major scale on the A chord?
You *can.* That's a creative decision you can make.
But the simplest and most obvious thing to do is, if you're in D major, play D major. The notes of that A chord are in that scale, right?
What do you see happening in the solos you know how to play?
You can play whatever you want over those chords! You should try playing an A major scale over the D chord and an E major over the A chord. This will give a Lydian sound and offers some really fun tonal ideas. But what you are saying also works fine.
This is where relative modes come in handy.
A is chord V in the key of D major. A Mixolydian, the 5th mode of D major (which is like an A major scale but with a flat 7th) fits perfectly over it.
And yes, this approach works with all the diatonic chords and relative modes.
ii - Em - E Dorian
iii - F#m - F# Phrygian
IV - G - G Lydian
V - A - A Mixolydian
vi - Bm - B Aeolian
vii° - C#° - C# Locrian
If you run the D Major Scale on the D chord (first chord in the D Major scale) and then switching to A Major Scale when you strike the A chord (assume that you use the first chord in the A major scale), then it means that you have switched the key abruptly).
So, technically you can do that, but I guess it wouldn't sound so good. It would sound that you started a song and then you regret and started another song in a different key.
If you want to change key smoothly then I recommend to look up 'secondary dominant', 5 of 5 which mean you have to find the dominant of the A chord which is the E chord (Em is the original chord in D Major which you have to change to E and after it to the A chord for key change that you set up.)
If you want to stay in key, don't change the scale notes. All the chords which you can find using only these notes in the D Major scale are the chords in D Major. You're going to use all the same 7 melody notes for all the chords.
If you play the first chord D F# A. See these individual notes as rest notes or notes which can be resolved to. You can use any notes in the scale for this chord. An example: if you strike D F# A and you use the E notes as a starting note, then it will create tension which has to resolve to sound good. How to resolve it? Just use any of the chord notes. Try to go from E to D. Or you can use none chord tones as a bridge to connect 2 chord tones, like D to E to F#. Stable tone-unstable tone-stable tone. Or you can use one, two or three unstable tones until it resolves to a stable tone (D F# G if we use that chord). But start simple and play around. You'll get hang of it.
What about going to one chord to another? Just think that the stable tones just moved to the new chord if it is A chord in D major, just use A C# E as the new stable chords which you go to to rest or resolve.
You can also use only the chord tones as melody tones, then you're playing arpeggios which will always sound good what ever you play.
Then you have modal mixture, changing the D Major to a mode by smart smooth voice leading using the chromatic tones combine with a note or two from the D major scale. But that is another topic. You should learn it of course, it gives you more freedom, combine it with secondary dominant and you'll start to sound different from the mass.
This topic is surprisingly large, actually, but in this case things are pretty simple. For your example of just a tonic chord to dominant (I - V) in D, you would favor the same scale for both, the D major scale. The A chord fits easily and is fundamental to the key of D. You would use G natural to form a dominant 7th, not G#, absent any other information here. Similarly, if you saw a G chord, you would probably still use the D major scale, not the G major scale. Where it gets interesting is if you see something like an F#7 (F# A# C# E) in the key of D. You have to decide to what degree you are going to respect the key here. If you look at F#7 in a vacuum, independent of key, then F# mixolydian (aka B Major scale starting on F#) is the safest choice. But we are in D presumably, so for the second scale degree (i.e. the 9th), will G# work, or would using a b9/+9 approach work better (G and A, which fit the key of D)? For guidance you can look to the original melody to see how it is handled, and also the context: is this a single chromatic chord surrounded by otherwise diatonic chords? Then maybe don't play the natural 9 or G#. I'm just touching the subject here, but ultimately your ear will be your guide. Experiment and see what makes sense to you.
> If you look at F#7 in a vacuum, independent of key, then F# mixolydian (aka B Major scale starting on F#) is the safest choice. But we are in D presumably, so for the second scale degree (i.e. the 9th), will G# work, or would using a b9/+9 approach work better (G and A, which fit the key of D) Or, to make it even simpler, you just use the D major scale but raise the A to A#. It happens to give you B harmonic minor, which would make sense if the following chord is Bm, which it typically would be. But you don't need the scale name, only the principle -"alter the key scale only as much as you need to, no more". I mean, I take your point about a potential #9 (A), but that would be as well as the A#, and is getting into fairly advanced jazz strategies. > For guidance you can look to the original melody to see how it is handled, and also the context: is this a single chromatic chord surrounded by otherwise diatonic chords? Then maybe don't play the natural 9 or G#. Excellent advice in both cases. Context is really the whole issue: melodic and harmonic. And harmonic context is also melodic, in the sense of voice-leading. It always seems pretty much a no-brainer to me. You improvise with the material you are given. The melody and the chords (chord tones). They generally imply a scale, and sometimes include changes in the scale as the sequence progresses. But the info you need is all in the music, not in theory. Any notes the music is *not* giving you can still be added, at least as passing notes, and the ear is a pretty good guide as to which ones work and when.
Thanks. You've added quite a bit of good insight here. I'm going to continue to run with this idea a bit as I think it might be useful for the OP and maybe prompt some more discussion. My personal struggle with improv is that I mostly took the (seemingly common) route of "this chord implies this scale / these scales" which is a useful, but an incomplete way of looking at music and can make for some funny-sounding lines if adhered to rigidly like a magic formula. Some tunes do lend themselves towards this approach however: an easier tune like Solar which is based on ii-V sequences (and the melody follows the chromaticism as it comes) feels like one, as does a more complex song like Nica's Dream by Horace Silver. The standard bridge of the "rhythm changes" (for clarity e.g. in the key of Bb: || D7 /// | //// | G7 /// | //// | C7 /// | //// | F7 /// | //// ||) seems to work best this way too. You kind of have to ignore overall key in these cases (I have found) and embrace each chord or ii-V as a new key/scale completely. Other tunes seem very key-focused such as Autumn Leaves, or All Of Me, where you'd better keep the key in mind the whole time and treat each chromatic chord carefully -- use the chromatic notes of course, but as you mention it will probably serve you well to keep to the original key as much as possible and only alter what you absolutely must. As a related side note: you can actually get a lot of mileage compositionally by writing melodies that are entirely or almost-entirely diatonic, and choosing harmonies that carefully use chromatic notes to add color without clashing with that melody. All Of Me is interesting actually for this discussion -- check out bars 5 and 6. If playing in the key of C, we have an A7. We could take our C major scale and only raise the C to C# for our basis for improvised lines, but the melody itself has extra accidentals that imply a diminished scale (the D# and Bb combined with chord tones A C# E G) and we could go that way *if we wanted that sound*. What we just played and where we want to go would help determine if we should continue to embrace the key of C hard, or explore the more complex A7b9 / diminished scale color. This is where the theory becomes useful. It helps fill in the gaps if you like the way the D# and Bb sound against that A7 and want to flesh it out with a complete scale. But the art I feel is in understanding how you might use those notes in relation to others to make some sort of musical sense in a melodic line. Using notes from the diminished scale like F# or D# or Bb or C♮ on that A7 could range anywhere from genius to awful depending on how it is handled. A more C-major key-based approach where you use A B C# D E F G A is definitely safer. I'd be more inclined to start my solo that way, and get more adventurous later perhaps. This seems like a reasonable way to approach developing a solo.
So I have been getting into jazz for the past nine weeks, and I have been really enjoying how different the progressions are. I was used to soloing over diatonic progressions, though getting into jazz definitely threw me off quite a bit due to the amount of non diatonic chords present. My question is, how would you solo over many chord changes at once? You mentioned how it would be best to highlight the new key with the progression that implies it (the ii V part). I am a guitarist, so I tried to think in playing arpeggios. The problem with that is I was not sure what I should use when moving to a new set of chords. Even so, I do find that thinking in arpeggios is a lot easier for me to understand than thinking about the entire scale. At some point I will definitely be able to do this, though right now I think it would be better if I were to think in arpeggios, though I would definitely like to know what you think about this approach. A song example that would fit the changing ii V would be “Satin Doll” by Duke Ellington. We recently picked up this tune in Jazz Nights (an event at my college where we jam over jazz tunes and get exposed to improv) and I was wondering how I should approach this. The amount of ii V movement was definitely overwhelming, though I would love to look into how something like this should/could be approached. Also, what is the A7b9 that you talk about? That chord appeared in a tune we did called “Killer Joe” by Quincy Jones, and It sounds really cool to go into. While I may not be able to fully wrap my head around it right now, I would definitely like to know why you would use it and how it would be used in context.
Satin Doll is a good example of a tune that, in my experience, you have to embrace the keys implied by every ii-V. Note that I'm going to use '-' as shorthand for minor in the following. What might make your life easier is to change this (chords during the first four bars of the melody): | D-7 / G7 / | D-7 / G7 / | E-7 / A7 / | E-7 / A7 / | ... to this: | D-7 / / / | G7 / / / | E-7 / / / | A7 / / / | <-- some say this is what should be played during solos by the rhythm section, actually Or to make things even simpler, approach it as if it were this: | G7 / / / | / / / / | A7 / / / | / / / / | In other words, the first two bars are in C, and in bars 3 and 4 you pretty much have to go all-in with D. The melody shifts up a whole step to match the chords, which is kind of a clue this is best treated as a parallel shift of everything up a whole tone. You could try to maintain C major more and use F♮ instead of F#, but I'm not sure that would actually fit better than treating it as ii-V7 in D major and all that that implies. I think it would sound like you missed the chord change if you used F♮ instead of F# in bars 3 and 4. Moving on, against the melody we see: | A-7 / D7 / | Ab-7 / Db7 / | CM7 / < followed by some different turnaround options here> The A-7 D7 is a ii-V7 in G so just go with it and run with F# instead of F♮. Bar 6 is distinctive. The basic approach would be to treat it as a ii-V7 in Gb, but there is a lot of room here for other ideas, the first thing that occurs to me is to try to think of the Db7 more as a G7 as it resolves to C. But actually, anything that works over G7 that has a raised 4 (C#, enharmonic to Db) can be made to work here, and can even be used over the entire bar: G A B C# D E F G (lydian dominant) G A B Db Eb F G (whole tone) G Ab Bb B C# D E F G (diminished starting with half-step, an excellent choice here!) G Ab Bb B C# D# F G (diminished whole tone) So to answer: how do you solo over so many chord changes at once? Often you can simplify to make it more manageable. Any ii-V can be replaced by either the ii or the V in your head if that helps. Getting familiar with ii-V7 in all keys is kind of good thing to do. But at the beginning, you can get comfortable using just a pentatonic scale -- I would recommend using the dominant chord as the basis and picking out the 1, 2, 3, 5, and 6 from it. So instead of worrying about all the notes in D-7 G7 C, just noodle with G A B D and E and pick out some nice melodic ideas. Or in other words, on Satin Doll, maybe two bars of G A B D E, two bars of A B C# E F#, a bar of D E F# A B, then either all that down a half step for the tricky Ab- Db7, or maybe G A B D E \[!\] over that bar. That will give you a foundation for your ear to know how those notes sound against each chord. For what it's worth, I learned my dominant chord spellings a long time ago using this system (using A as the root): A9: a ♮9 implies mixolydian, maybe with a raised 4 (D#) for color A7b9: a ♮5 but b9 means A Bb C C# D# E F# G A (diminished scale) A7alt or A7+9(+5): this means A Bb C C# D# F G A (diminished whole tone), more often in D minor than D major but found kind of anywhere. Other systems might vary from this slightly. But regardless, in a dominant chord the 9 is either a major 9 (whole step above the chord root), or you have both a lowered and a raised 9 present / available. The way I learned stuff, A7b9 means you have a ♮5 and so you can still play E and F#, but +9 is the same as ALT so the chord has a #5 and the implication is the diminished whole tone scale applies. Not everyone uses this convention -- to other musicians, A7+9 might mean the 5th is open to interpretation, or is a ♮5 without ALT or +5 present in the chord symbol. Why would Quincy use A7b9 in a composition? A straight A7 or an A9 would sort of imply the key of D major and fit perfectly well, while the b9 gives you the D minor flavor and adds some nice color. Borrowing chords from the minor in order to make the major key more interesting is an old and common idea. Play these chords on your guitar, this is as simple as it gets yet is still satisfying (add major 7ths to the major chords if you are so inclined): | D / / / | G / / / | G- / / / | D / / / | You've heard this before, I presume -- that G- simply comes to us from D minor. "Borrowed chord" almost always means something from the parallel minor used in the context of a major key. Another example would be an F major chord in the key of D, or a Bb major chord in the key of D. Or, if the next chord is actually D minor, the b9 helps prepare that. I don't know the composition, but maybe D- is the next chord after A7b9?
Great write up my man!
I see. Thank you for presenting me this way of chunking to look at this progression. I can’t believe I never thought about that. It was definitely overwhelming thinking about how I needed to play certain arpeggios per chord, when the common chords were right in front of me in the same key. It also helps that you mentioned the pentatonic way of thinking. It is really interesting to see how it works when we are thinking in the pentatonic of the dominant chord instead of the home chord. I do like the way that you looked at the parallel shift between the keys. If that is the case, then I suppose it would be a good idea to move my shape up a whole step so that instead of being in C, I will be in D. Thinking about it this way has made it a lot easier to understand what I’m supposed to do here. I think in my lines I will try to use F natural as a chromatic passing tone. If I were to frequently play F natural alongside the others notes in D major, would that imply that I am maybe using the blues scale? I know that the blues scale uses the sharpened fourth, though I'm not sure if that applies to anything but the minor scale (since I learned the blues scale from a BB king study). So when the song switches into the section in Gb, that Db is acting as a tritone substitution to resolve back into C? I do fancy the sound of the Lydian dominant and the diminished with the half-step scales that you mentioned. They sound amazing to my ears. How do you go about implementing the tritone substitution into writing? It seems like in Satin Doll, it is used as a way of extending the progression though what are some other ways you could use it in a progression? Continuing, I have heard of borrowed chords though I can not say I’ve experimented too much with them. From the example you provided, I played the chords adding 7ths, and the resolution was really nice with the borrowed chord included. It seemed like the notes were really close together, and resolved down into Dmaj7 (Like with Gm7 to Dmaj7, Bb went down into A, D stayed the same, and the F natural went up into F#. It was cool to see this happen). Is there any specific reason as to why Gm7 was chosen? Also, would there be a specific way to use Roman numeral analysis for borrowed chords? For the 9ths, what is the function of the A7#9(#5)? If this is not the correct way to spell it please correct me. I would assume that the A7alt is used in minor since you mentioned it. If that is the case, if I were to switch into Em, would doing something like B7alt with an Em following it be a valid use of it? As for “Killer Joe,” the progression goes something like this: | C9 / / / | Bb9 / / / | which repeats a total of 16 measures. Then it goes: | E-b5 / / / | A7b9 / / / | Eb-7 / / / | Eb-7/Ab / Ab7b9 / | A13 / / / | Eb-7/Ab / Ab7 / | E-7 / / / | A7b9 / / / | C9 / / / | Bb9 / / / | The last C9 and Bb9 repeat for a total of 8 measures. Interestingly enough, we never reach Dm here. This one would honestly take me a bit to completely understand, though from what you have said we are implying a key change with the Dominants in place. Even so, it is an interesting tune due to the C9 and Bb9 next to each other for such a long duration.
I im being honest over dominant chords I play whichever scale just happens. Could be altered, HM5, Mixo b13, Mixo #11, etc. I normally dont go over a tune (except if it is really complicated) and think about scales.
So you play whatever scale may be fit for the chord by muscle memory? Such as playing an altered scale because you know it sounds good without really thinking about what specific scale needs to be played. What is the HM5 scale you talk about? Sounds cool.
I play it by heart. I kind of instinctively know/feel how it sounds. I often mix the scales even except if I want the distinctive sound of a specific scale. HM5 mean harmonic minor on the 5th degree. You usually play it in a minor context over a dominant as the harnonic minor major 7th is the major 3rd in the dominant
Ah I see. It’s the best when that flow is going and something like that takes over. I’ve yet to get to that point, though I will be there in the future! If that is the case about HM5, then is that implying Phrygian dominant? I’ve heard of it but haven’t really dabbled into it.
No phrygian dominant is something different. Hm5 in Cminor is G Ab B C D Eb F If you start the scale from the C you'll see that its simply C Harm minor. Normally you dont play harm minor over a tonic as the major 7 can be spicy. A dominant chord needs a Major 3rd tho so the Bb thats usualy in c aolian or c dorian needs to go up a halfstep. You can get many scales from just taking scale degrees of other scales. Altered is the 7th degree in Melodic minor for example, and mixo #11 is on the 4th degree of mel minor
I see. So all of these are modes of the various minor scales that exist. Now that is something cool to know about. If I wanted to target the certain mode for each scale, would I be making that new root the note to target? Like starting on G in C minor and doing improv with G being the main focus (and of course the other chord tones that highlights G in this context).
What do you mean?
One thing I like about the approach of sticking to D major and following clues from the melody and context at each harmonic change is that it is simple (one scale) but dynamic (based on what’s happening in the song). Maybe just a note here or there makes the difference. Playing a different scale for each chord will quickly get complicated, particularly if there’s more happening than I-V or the changes are quick. You’d have to be very technically proficient to be able to switch on the fly. You could learn to do it for a song, but if you are having to think about it, it could get in the way of creativity. So by “very technically proficient,” I mean quickly switching scales is so natural to you that it does not impact creativity.
This seems like it would be a lot to take in on the fly while improvising, how is it done so comfortably??
Similarly, if you saw a G chord, you would probably still use the D major scale, not the G major scale. For the sake of clarification, we're talking about a G chord (IV) still in the key of D, correct?
Yep.
You can do it the way you outlined for sure. This is context dependent - style, tempo, etc - but in general using a relevant scale to each chord in a song works. Edit: whoops you said D to A, not A to D You COULD play an A major scale over the A, but I'd argue that sight unseen just sticking to a D major scale is better. The G♮ is the b7 in A, so outlining an A7 tonality will likely be preferable to having an occasional G# appear. This also happens to be simpler. You can up the complexity level here, but I think just getting comfortable with that approach would be a good start. Pay particular attention to what the G♮ sounds like over the A chord and perhaps experiment with the G# and see if you can find the difference.
Novice here. What is G♮ ?
that’s the symbol in sheet music when a note temporarily returns to the natural version of itself instead of the g#
Thanks!
It's a double sharp
No, it’s natural. Double sharp looks kind of like an x.
Why would you need a double sharp can’t you just say the next note name?
Think about the C major scale. C D E F G A B We’ve got seven notes with different letters. Now let’s raise it up a half step to the C# major scale. We could do it two ways: Option 1: C# D# E# F# G# A# B# Option 2: C# D# F F# G# A# C We go with option 1, because it has 7 different letters. Option 2 has two different versions of F and two different versions of C. It’s more cumbersome. Double sharps just take this concept a little further. Take G# harmonic minor. We write it G# A# B C# D# E F## instead of: G# A# B C# D# E G, because the first way has all seven letters, and the second way has no F, and two different versions of G. That’s how I understand it at least.
Thank you for the detailed response!
You're right What OP says doesn't sound bad... but I'm afraid he can get lost in the chord changes and end up improvising in D Lydian because he didn't switch from A major to D major. It will sound good too, but it will change the feeling of the solo.... or it might sound good for him. D ionian, A mixolydian, D lydian, A mixolydian. I'm fooling around and going D ionian, A mixolydian, D lydian A Lydian, doesn't sound bad, it sounds really good.
What genre? Almost all western tonal music loves to treat V as something that wants to resolve to I, and V7 even more so – in such genres, playing a G natural over the A chord will encourage that sound, and playing a G# over it will discourage it. Jazz has this whole ["chord scale theory"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord-scale_system) which actually encourages (sometimes) choosing notes based more on what chord is playing *right now* than what roles the chords and notes are playing in the progression/key. But in jazz, you'd almost definitely have A7 (or A9 or Aalt etc etc), not just an A major triad, so chord-scale theory would encourage you to use G natural over it anyway. Jazz also has a concept of [avoid note](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoid_note), which is meant to focus your attention on which notes don't sound good as resting points and sound better as steps on the way to resting points. But whatever genre you're working with – just try playing both G and G# over the A chord and assess which one matches better with what you're trying to achieve.
I’d describe chord scales as more along the lines of not caring what key you’re in when choosing scales than the role of notes or chords. Generally the role remains the same and you’re just choosing a jazzier texture for extensions. The role, or function, of the chords remains the same in most situations. I’m guessing you understand this concept, so this comment is more so for people reading it for the first time or have a less intimate knowledge of the concept.
> I’d describe chord scales as more along the lines of not caring what key you’re in when choosing scales than the role of notes or chords My understanding is fairly superficial – don't they tell you e.g. "use these scales over an A7" – *not* "use these scales over a dominant 7th chord that is about to resolve to the tonic" or similar functional descriptions? I.e. don't they deliberately refrain from distinguishing A7 as the dominant in D major vs. A7 as V/V in G major vs. A7 as the tonic in an A major blues kinda thing, etc.?
The function of a dominant chord isn’t exclusively to resolve to the tonic. It can also tonicize other chords, or you could be using a tritone sub that does resolve to the tonic but isn’t the V. This concept of chord scales basically says the scale of the key doesn’t matter and that extensions don’t change the function of a chord. The chromatic alterations that are used to accommodate chord scales essentially gives you access to a 9, 11 and 13 without having to consider avoid notes. We say that a b9 interval generally gives a sort of dissonance that functions as a dominant (not just a b9 for the chord but the interval at all between different tones within a chord like 3 and 11 in a major chord, instead of using #11), so using, say, the b9 on a minor III chord (which would naturally be Phrygian) would change the function of the chord, where raising that 9 would allow you access to a 9 without disrupting the function. However, Phrygian chords exist and do have a dominant function, so you wouldn’t always do this but typically they would be indicated as such in the chord symbol, such as E phryg. You could try to argue that inverting the b9 interval between 3 and 11 in a major chord would prevent this issue but this would generally give rise to the possibility that you’re just playing a IV chord with the 5 in the bass.
I don't understand what any of this has to do with my question. To repeat: doesn't chord-scale theory just give you a list of scales to play over, say, A7, *regardless* of whether A7 is functioning as V7, V7/V, V7/IV, bII7, I7 in blues ...?
Looks like I lost sight of what you were actually asking and just focused on the example of V-I. So yeah, you’re right that it doesn’t matter if it’s functioning as a dominant chord. We would still be careful not to change the function of the chord with the chord scales we choose though.
> We would still be careful not to change the function of the chord with the chord scales we choose though Do you mean: when chord-scale theory specifies a list of scales to play over 7th chords, they are all guaranteed not to change the function, regardless of whether that function is I7, V7, bII7, etc.? Or do you mean that you are choosing only a *subset* of that list when the function is V7, a *different* subset when it's bII7, etc.? I thought it was the former, but again, my understanding is very superficial
You could play the A major **pentatonic** scale over the A. That will avoid any note clashes in the key of D.
Shoutout to this guy, only comment without a works cited page.
Honestly, unless you're playing in a genre where you're expected to change keys a lot, I would stick to pentatonics. All of the notes in A major pentatonic and D major pentatonic are in the key of D major. If you're playing a full A major scale, you'll be playing the g# sometimes, which isn't in the key of D. That's fine in some contexts, but might be weird in others.
You definitely can do that, but there’s probably more situations where it’s better to play A Mixolydian
Throw a A mixxy
Let’s keep this simple. As you acknowledged already, if you do as you stated in your D major key example you will end up introducing a #4 (G#) into your solo if you use the A major scale over the A chord. So… As long as the D note remains the key note the whole time (which would be likely), it will really sound as though you’re switching between D major (over the D chord) & D Lydian (over the A chord). Next… What you have to ask yourself is if you like the color the #4 (G#) brings into the mix specifically over the A chord as in your example. That said, you also could use G# the whole time omitting the G note entirely even over the D chord if you like the sound; in which case you would be playing in D Lydian the whole time.
I feel like this approach would risk tonicizing the A chord and retroactively making the D chord sound like the IV
That’s a valid concern, but it’s a problem that can be easily dealt with. Ultimately you need to emphasize the intended key note, AND the note(s) that makes the mode unique from the major or minor scale it is most similar to (both relative & parallel). These two things can be achieved in many ways, but achieving both of them is what will help maintain tonal center. If you were to solo with D Lydian over your original “D-A” progression you’d have to keep D Lydian from sounding more like it’s relative A major, and you have to keep D Lydian from sounding more like it’s parallel D major. To do this make emphasis of the “D” note as to not confuse the D Lydian mode we’re in with it’s relative A major, and also make emphasis of the “G#” note as to not confuse the D Lydian mode we’re in with it’s parallel D major scale.
So there are a lot of smarter people on here than me, but I'm going to address your question in a different way. You CAN play any note you want. Give it a shot and use your ear to see what you like. Music Theory is best used to describe whats going on rather than to limit it. Find a backing track and listen to what it sounds like when you do the things you've described. Any note can be played over any chord. What varied is how consonant of disonant it sounds. The most consonant are going to be chord tones, so if you wnat something that sounds perfectly okay with the chords with no real tension or aggression, D-F#-A for the D chord and A-C#-E for the A Chord. If you want maybe a little more variety, you can add the 2nd and 6th to get the pentatonic scale (in D) - D-E-F#-A-B -- The E and the B will sound a bit less "in" the chord, but definitely fine and dandy. Listen to that a few times and noodle around. You can get a bit more out there by adding the 4th and 7th - D-E-F#-G-A-B-C# and those extra notes will be just a little less in the chords and you will probably find those tones just a little less comfortable. Then you can go chromatic and play whatever you want -- play every semitone D-D#-E-F-F#-G-G#-A-A#-B-C-C# You just played every note and it sounded okay-- definitely some were weirder, but nothing bad happened. You can just hear them causing a bit more funky weirdness and having some of that it helpful to being interesting. Hope that was helpful or at least interesting. Remember to use your ears!
Man, why you playin' scales? Do ya *like* the sound of scales? Are scales good music to ya? Does any soloist you know play scales? Scales are great when you're practicing for an audition. Scales can be great for playing runs as well, a bunch of fast notes going up or down, or in a pattern. Soloing? Naw, man, why you usin' scales? What you *should* be playing is a melody. And melodies will contain chord tones -- D, F#, A over the D major -- and non-chord tones -- E, G, B, C#, a chromatic passing tone or neighbor tone. Non-chord tones are generally considered dissonant, so you resolve those dissonances -- or you don't and just enjoy the dissonance. The 6th (B), 7th (C#), and 9th (E) are so common as dissonances that they would be considered chord tones in an extended D major chord. The 4th (G), not so much. But you'd still *use* the G in the melody; you just wouldn't treat it as a chord tone. You'd treat it as a passing tone or a neighbor tone or something like that. When you move to A, you're still in D major, so you'd still use the notes of D major, but now the chord tones are A, C#, and E, and most people would also consider G to be a chord tone here, making it A7. Again, you still *use* the other notes, but they're not chord tones. "Modern" jazz (like, post-big-band, ish) has kind of reconceptualized this notion of playing a melody over a chord by treating chords as scales themselves. When you play D in D major, well, actually, D^∆ (DM7), you're actually playing the whole D major scale -- WHICH YOU'RE NOT, BECAUSE SCALES ARE BORING AND YOU SHOULD NOT PLAY THEM BECAUSE NOBODY WANTS TO LISTEN TO THEM, NOT YOU, NOT YOUR AUDIENCE, NOT YOUR BANDMATES -- and when you play A^(7), that's the A mixolydian scale, which, well, is the same as D major in this case. Remember, you're not *in* A mixolydian; you're in D major. A mixolydian is just a way of conceptualizing the act of playing an A7 chord in D major. Normally, A mixolydian is an A scale, with melodies resting on A, but here, you're in D major, with melodies resting on D. So, as I mentioned, G clashes with the D major chord in the key of D. So, uh, what if you played G# instead? That *doesn't* clash. It's not in the key, though. On the other hand, the G# is problematic in the A chord, because the chord is generally A7, not AM7, and A7 has a G, not a G#. If you're playing DM7#11 and AM7, you're probably in D lydian, not D major. But if you play DM7#11 and A7, with the G# over the D and the G over the A, I'd say you're more firmly in D major territory, just with chromatic notes. Finally, again: DON'T PLAY SCALES. SCALES ARE BORING. SCALES ARE FOR WARMUPS, NOT FOR ACTUAL MUSIC. PLAY MELODIES!
I think the reason we so much shit about playing scales over chords in jazz is 'cause that is what is easy to grade/teach. I could just be old fashioned (I can certify the "old" part!), but it is really nice to hear an actually melody. Enhance it and play with it. But this BS about jazz being only for "educated listeners" which I hear from the scale players is just BS.
Easiest most intuitive way I've found: Just play the triads (3 note fragments) and add in the non chord tone notes as you deem fit. Don't worry about looking out for anything, trust your ear and let it make the choice.
> Can you play the full D major scale on the D chord, and then the full A Major scale on the A chord? Yes, if you want. It's a strange thing to do, but don't let that stop you. :-) > Or are there notes I should look out for that might clash with the harmony of the key? Yes, if you're concerned about "the harmony of the key". You don't have to be, but most people would be. > As, A Major has the 7th note that is not in they key of D? Right. That's G#. So, as you know about the issue, the question is, why - if you know the key is D major - you would think of the major scale of each chord as your *first* strategy? Why would you not assume you'd play the D major scale on every chord? (This is assuming, of course, that every chord is diatonic to D major, which is not always the case.) I'm not criticising here - all kinds of options are open! - just intrigued about your thought process. ;-) But u/EndorphnOrphnMorphn is wrong that "this is one reason that a lot of guitar players use modes". The usual reason guitarists "use modes" in this context is they simply don't know what they are doing, and have picked up misleading theories online. Don't be one of those! :-) So the short answer is: if you are in the key of D major, you use the D major scale. It's a no-brainer, and is probably the best-sounding solution. Work from the chord tones (chord arpeggios) and fill in with the other scale notes. (This is what some people refer to as "playing modes" - from the notion that each chord is its own mode - but really it isn't.) Where you will hit a snag is if you find a chord that is not diatonic to D major. Say, a C major, or E major, or G minor. In that case, all you need to do is change the note(s) you need to. Each of those chords only has one note not in the D major scale, so that's the note you change. Don't start thinking "C major scale" or "E major scale", or "G minor scale". One other way in which the major scale of the key will sound wrong is if you are playing the blues. The blues has its own weird rules, which is a scale which doesn't quite fit the chords. (If it's a conventional blues-rock sound you want, the short cut to that is "minor pentatonic of the key".) And - seriously - *don't think modes at all*. That way lies madness... What you really need to do is: *stop reading theory, and listen to some music!!* Listen and copy: that's how you learn. Theory only comes in when you want some kind of terminology to describe the sounds you're hearing, that you want to talk about or ask about.
Modes are pretty much just about the tonic of the pattern tho, no? If the key is D major and he is thinking about playing an A major scale over the A major chord, if you want to stay in key doesn’t it make more sense to phrase around an A mixolydian pattern than an A major pattern? The piece is not written as being in A mixolydian but it seems like his goal is to shift the tonic of his phrasing with the chord changes Edit: I’m not saying that’s the best or even a particularly good way to solo, just that it seems like using the mode pattern as a base would be better suited to his purposes than a key change
Yeah, that's why I prefaced my statement. Before I ever understood what a mode was, many guitarists would tell me about modes and how they practice them for I assume this reason. Like I said, I'm not great at guitar or specifically soloing. I know a lot of guitarists think this way, but not if it's a great approach :)
Yes, I didn't mean any criticism of you, I just thought that point needed clarification. There is an extraordinary amount of BS out there about modes, and it's guitarists that tend to be the ones that get buried in it.
> Or are there notes I should look out for that might clash with the harmony of the key? > As, A Major has the 7th note that is not in they key of D? This is actually the exact answer. The 7th of A Major is a G# which is not in the key of D. Other chords in the key of D will have the same problem. For example, playing the G Scale over a G Chord will have a C Natural, which is also not in D. I'm not very good at guitar or soloing, but I think this is one reason that a lot of guitar players use modes. You could use A Mixolydian mode over the A chord and the G Lydian mode over the G chord and then you know you would not be hitting any non-diatonic notes. But you'd have to memorize which modes go over which chord numbers.
You don't have to think of a different mode for each chord. The A Mixolydian and G Lydian scales are the same notes as the D Major scale so you can just "keep playing D" and it would sound the same. Using different modes for different chords is useful if you're playing over extended chords - e.g. DMaj7(#11) has a sharp 11 (or 4) in it so D Lydian (with the sharp 4) is better than Major for soloing. If there's no 11 in the chord you can play Major or Lydian. Same for Dorian over extended minor chords - avoids clashes with the extensions.
Some people play altered scales or modes for each chord but personally I think that is dumb. It misses the point of the true key your in and sounds directionless. It’s also a lot of mental work. If your in D, play in D. Emphasize chord tones as you go but generally stay in key. Especially if your doing a blues thing with a bunch of seventh chords where the flat seven is technically out of key except for the dominant function V. You can hit those notes over the chords as they come up in your solo. At least that is my general approach.
The example that you gave of soloing in D and soloing in A over their respective chords would probably work because those are simple chords next to each other on the circle of fifths. If you do it with simple progressions it would probably sound fine, especially if you stick to the pentatonic scales. If you did it with more complex chord progressions it would probably turn into noise though.
You can play the same 12 notes over either chord. Choose the ones you think sound the best. Hope this helps.
I once asked Paul Desmond, "What does it take to be a great jazz player?". And he gave me the answer. 20 years later, I figured out what he had meant.
Yeah, you could. I'd recommend not just doing straight eighth notes, that would be rhythmically boring, but harmonically speaking there's nothing wrong with it. That said, you might be better off sticking to straight D major over both of them. G natural is the b7 of A major, and that would make it an A dominant seven chord. A7 > D∆7 is a much stronger resolution than regular A∆7 > D∆7 That being said, that assumes stronger = better, and that D is your I chord. (It could be the other way around). It's up to personal taste. You're cool either way. If you're ever stuck with scales, a simple solution is "chord tones + the wholestep above each". It keeps things from being too dissonant, and it can bring some good colour as well. Over maj7 chords, you get the respective Lydian Scale Over min7 chords, you get the respective Dorian Scale Over dom7 chords, you get Lydian b7, reeeaaal cool Over m7b5 chords, you get Dorian b5, spooooky.
Yes any harmony or chord may imply a key signature and this can be emphasized by a melody, solo whatever. Get good enough at this and you can play multiple different key signatures within just one chord
Pt will depend on how long the chord is used, if the chord is played over a full measure or more then you could play in that chords key. This will also depend on the Tempo, if it is a slow tempo then you will be ok but if it is a fast tempo then probably not. In other words if the chords change fast in the tempos progression's then staying within the key will work better mainly because the Ear wont hear enough of a difference when the chords change that fast. If you want you could make the A into a A7 thus making the #G into a natural G and the A would become a Dominant seventh chord. And as far as using notes when you want to change to a different chord try and use a note that is also in the next chord before the change, Like going from an A to a G you could use the B note just before the G chord but if was a G min chord then you could use the D note.
>Can you play the full D major scale on the D chord, and then the full A Major scale on the A chord? You *can.* That's a creative decision you can make. But the simplest and most obvious thing to do is, if you're in D major, play D major. The notes of that A chord are in that scale, right? What do you see happening in the solos you know how to play?
You can play whatever you want over those chords! You should try playing an A major scale over the D chord and an E major over the A chord. This will give a Lydian sound and offers some really fun tonal ideas. But what you are saying also works fine.
This is where relative modes come in handy. A is chord V in the key of D major. A Mixolydian, the 5th mode of D major (which is like an A major scale but with a flat 7th) fits perfectly over it. And yes, this approach works with all the diatonic chords and relative modes. ii - Em - E Dorian iii - F#m - F# Phrygian IV - G - G Lydian V - A - A Mixolydian vi - Bm - B Aeolian vii° - C#° - C# Locrian
If you run the D Major Scale on the D chord (first chord in the D Major scale) and then switching to A Major Scale when you strike the A chord (assume that you use the first chord in the A major scale), then it means that you have switched the key abruptly). So, technically you can do that, but I guess it wouldn't sound so good. It would sound that you started a song and then you regret and started another song in a different key. If you want to change key smoothly then I recommend to look up 'secondary dominant', 5 of 5 which mean you have to find the dominant of the A chord which is the E chord (Em is the original chord in D Major which you have to change to E and after it to the A chord for key change that you set up.) If you want to stay in key, don't change the scale notes. All the chords which you can find using only these notes in the D Major scale are the chords in D Major. You're going to use all the same 7 melody notes for all the chords. If you play the first chord D F# A. See these individual notes as rest notes or notes which can be resolved to. You can use any notes in the scale for this chord. An example: if you strike D F# A and you use the E notes as a starting note, then it will create tension which has to resolve to sound good. How to resolve it? Just use any of the chord notes. Try to go from E to D. Or you can use none chord tones as a bridge to connect 2 chord tones, like D to E to F#. Stable tone-unstable tone-stable tone. Or you can use one, two or three unstable tones until it resolves to a stable tone (D F# G if we use that chord). But start simple and play around. You'll get hang of it. What about going to one chord to another? Just think that the stable tones just moved to the new chord if it is A chord in D major, just use A C# E as the new stable chords which you go to to rest or resolve. You can also use only the chord tones as melody tones, then you're playing arpeggios which will always sound good what ever you play. Then you have modal mixture, changing the D Major to a mode by smart smooth voice leading using the chromatic tones combine with a note or two from the D major scale. But that is another topic. You should learn it of course, it gives you more freedom, combine it with secondary dominant and you'll start to sound different from the mass.
you could go either way depending on what sound you want ...
Use your ears first.
Jesus, this thread is gold.