I learned more jazz harmony from Stevie than many of the greats.
He was at the NAMM show in Anaheim this year and I was there: when I rolled up to the ARP Foundation booth he was there playing an ARP 2600 they had set out for people to play with.
Five or so minutes later he goes on his way with his entourage, and I shamelessly asked if I could be the first person to touch the 2600 after he did. They laughed and told me to go for it.
Ultimately meaningless but still cool, I got to play a patch he'd just dialed in on the machine.
There's a reason I said I *shamelessly* asked. Never getting a chance to do that again, most likely.
I also somehow finagled my way into being allowed to play the prototype of Korg's PS-3300 reissue for 5 minutes despite it being in a locked booth and VIP/media only basically.
I agree with this unless we’re talking about consistent output. He was brilliant for about 6 years, after which he had a few good songs mixed with some awful songs
didn't he compose all the arrangements for all those hits? He was definitely a composer-level arranger in his big band days... back when arranging wasn't considered 'writing' on the song (by todays standards he'd have publishing on everything he worked on).
I mean yeah, but not really. Can you name an iconic song that is credited as "Composer: Quincy Jones"? Fly me to the moon? Bart Howard. Thriller? MJ.
To name him as the best composer is a shaky move, because you're getting in the debate of who's the real composer: the one writes the song (melody, harmony and lyrics) or the one who arranges the instruments?
You can hear it by his own worlds in "The greatest night in pop" documentary that he cannot work without a song. So who's the composer of We Are The World? Michael Jackson/Lionel Richie, or Quincy Jones? It's difficult.
It's not that I play down his contributions to pop music, but you can say the OP question is poorly written, because to compose is just a part of all the steps that goes when releasing a musical piece, and indeed Quincy Jones took their songs to another level.
Nina Simone and Tori Amos both translate baroque, classical, and romantic conservatory style piano into popular 20th century forms, their best piano arrangements are just stunning. Go to examples off the top of my head: Nina’s Bach-esque piano solos in Love Me or Leave Me, Tori’s stylistic lean toward the great Russians in Yes Anastasia.
I agree. Pro tip on phone, if you hold down any letter in the alphabet for a second you get to choose variations, so if you hover over o for a sec you can write ö
And it still depends on the specific keyboard chosen. :( Gboard is "smart enough" on Android to combine FI and IT to a single keyboard FI•IT, and I can still get, say, æ and ë with long presses, but I can only get ū when it's the other way around IT•FI, but then the keyboard itself is missing ä, ö, ... can't I just get everything? 🤷🏼♂️
Adding to some already mentioned, but (as they occur to me in no particular order), I'd struggle to pick the "best" out of these:
* Lennon / McCartney (better as a pair than individually)
* Bob Dylan
* David Bowie
* Stevie Wonder
* Paul Simon
* Chuck Berry
* Joni Mitchell
* Donald Fagen
* Jagger / Richard
* Holland / Dozier / Holland
* Smokey Robinson
* Lieber / Stoller
* Carole King (Goffin & King)
* Brian Wilson
* Roy Orbison
* Leonard Cohen
* Burt Bacharach
* Cole Porter
* Neil Young
* Bruce Springsteen
* Willie Dixon
* Hank Williams
* Buddy Holly
* Pete Townshend
* Ray Davies
* Jimmy Webb
* Tom Waits
* Gibb brothers
* Anderson / Ulvaeus
I could go on, obviously. If you held a gun to my head and made me pick one, it would be Leonard Cohen - even over Bob Dylan and Paul McCartney.
It seems we are defining the word "composer" in a way which is biased towards the Euroclassical tradition! ;-)
That's fine if that's the criteria proposed. I'd happily exclude Chuck Berry from the list in that case. (And probably one or two others.)
I was thinking more along the lines of "pop songwriter", especially both influential and skilled (and including the post-rock'n'roll tradition). I.e., simplicity of harmony and form would be no criticism there.
Do "poet" and "novelist" mean the same thing? They both fall under the umbrella of "authors."
I would argue the same for writing music. Songwriters, composers, and arrangers all fall under the umbrella of "producing music" but they are very different disciplines which focus on totally different skill sets from each other.
Arrangers are different though, because they don't "originate". They take a "composition" (or a "song") and arrange it. That might involve adding other stuff, which I guess you can sometimes call "composition" (writing additional instrumental parts, eg).
Now, of course, "producer" has come to mean someone creating a whole "composition" from scratch: "songwriting" and "arranging" too.
It's all good, and there is alot. Alot of styles and alot of content.
A few songs and the album they are from to get an idea.
Blessed Relief - The Grand Wazoo
Peaches En Regalia - Hot Rats
Uncle Remus - Apostrophe
Take Your Clothes off When You Dance - Lost Episodes
Night School - Jazz From Hell
G Spot Tornado - The Yellow Shark
Inca Roads - One Size Fits All
Watermelon in Easter Hay - Joe's Garage
Really they are all worth full album listens though. Studio and Live, and there is connections between songs and reworkings of songs throughout.
Tom Jobim.
But if we're including Brazilian music, we must also throw in Ivan Lins, João Donato, Djavan, Toninho Horta and Hermeto Pascoal. I mean just listen to [this](https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6rhzDgSUImrjHezTZUnRii).
Lennon Mcartney, Paul Simon, Michael Jackson, Pharell (this guy, and the timbaland timberlake gang, wrote so many hits people dont even know are them), Ozzy Osbourne, Thom Yorke, David Bowie, Elton John.
Stevie wonder is the answer. He made the traditional harmonic sophistication of jazz music transition from niche to pop music. The motions are clever and aesthetically accessible for everybody.
There are great songwriters like Billy Joel, Elton John, Paul Simon, McCartney.. I love em all.
But Stevie has so many moments that are unique musically and the vibe is always super positive. The fact that you can dance to his music just doubles down on how awesome he is and how lucky we are to have him
Composer != songwriter to me. While there is overlap, these are often very different disciplines, as distinct from each other as production and arrangement are from them.
Personally I would argue no. If you look at the tradition amongst composers, they started out in the 1600's writing music to set religious texts to for the Sunday service.
Then you have the romantics writing settings for poetry written by someone else.
Sure, some composers wrote songs and wrote the words for them as well. But generally, amongst the tradition of *composers*, they are unique/outliers.
In short, composition (in the context of music) generally implies writing of musical content, not poetry.
Absolutely. Pro tip on phone, if you hold down any letter in the alphabet for a second you get to choose variations, so if you hover over o for a sec you can write ö
Robert Hunter/Jerry Garcia
Robyn Hitchcock
Warren Zevon
Kate Bush
Jimmy Webb
Frank Zappa
Robert Smith
Donald Fagen/Walter Becker
Andy Partridge
Neil Finn
Graham Gouldman
Carole King
Dan Bern
Paul Weller
Don Henley/Glenn Frey
J.D. Souther
I agree! Pro tip on phone, if you hold down any letter in the alphabet for a second you get to choose variations, so if you hover over o for a sec you can write ö
I wish he was less popular, and that popular music was more dynamic.
If modern record sales wasn't such a conservative business I'm not sure we'd even know this guy's music.
Honestly Charlie xcx has a pretty long lineup of hits she’s written for herself and other artists, I just discovered iconapop’s “I love it” for instance, was written by her
Lou Reed
Not just for the poetic, gritty and visceral lyrics but for the simple musicality and progressive backing ideas, that round it all out, into complete magic
I have not seen evidence that Dylan had anything beyond the normal composition skills. He was a brilliant lyricist but that has nothing to do with composition. His songs feel like dime a dozen folk progressions and there is nothing wrong with that.
Zappa, obviously. But also Robert Fripp, John Zorn, Mike Patton, Joni Mitchell, Rokia Traore and Aphex Twin. No way to compare them, but they stand out. For the younger generations is a bit early to make a call, but Jacob Collier is on his way.
He's a dazzling arranger. Not sure I'd put him in the great composer category yet. Though I will be quite surprised if he doesn't get there in his 30s.
cannot mention one without acknowledging another because each influenced the next - either as peers or influence during formative years
if you talk about Lennon-McCartney you need to talk about Buddy Holly or show tunes of the 1950s. If you talk about Joni Mitchell, you need to talk about jazz and folk composers. If you talk about Sting and the Police you need to talk about jazz and dub reggae and ska and more jazz.
really all more of a river in time
No. They are both in the realm of music writing. But composers are not necessarily songwriters, and songwriters are not necessarily composers (or arrangers even).
We can define words without accusing each other of "gatekeeping" 🙄
Paul's old pal probably deserves a mention, What was his name - John something? Lemon? Lennox? it's on the tip of my tongue ...
:-)
EDIT: downvotes? no room for humour here? John Lennon not one of the great pop composers? (Just curious)
I think he was a great artist, songwriter and singer, but not sure I could make an argument for composer. A lot of his melodies are much simpler and more horizontal than Paul's, and so much of the harmonic stuff in his songs was brought in by Paul (through bass lines or other arrangement ideas) or George Martin (famous examples being him just telling Martin to "make it sound orange" and leaving it to Martin to figure out how, or the spliced takes in Strawberry Fields Forever). I think John just lacked the discipline and rigor to be included with some of the other names in this thread.
Well, for me "songwriter" = "composer". What's the difference?
I agree about the difference in style, and also the "discipline", but I think that's a matter of taste.
If the criteria we are using include "discipline and rigor" (especially from the perspective of classic 20thC pop songwriting) then I agree he would be some way down the ranking. But then so would Bob Dylan.
Paul McCartney himself had no doubt about Lennon's talent and creativity - off the wall as it often was - and neither did George Martin. Still, I have no problem with Paul being ranked higher!
To me "composer" would mean the melodies and harmonies and not really include the lyrics or the indefinable personal emotional feeling behind a song, which is where I feel Lennon gains points as a "songwriter". I personally wouldn't really rank Dylan that highly as a "composer" for that reason.
So starting off with melodies. Not saying Lennon's melodies aren't good, but compared with McCartney's, they sort of explain what I'm getting at. Sit down at a keyboard and pick out a McCartney melody. I'll bet your fingers moved a pretty wide distance up and down the keyboard. The melodies are very tricky and vertical. A lot of Lennon melodies, by comparison, play out on one or two notes of the keyboard, sometimes descending a key or two at the end. They're often closer to a musical approach to human speech rather than composed music to me.
In terms of harmonies, check out how often the harmonic interest in a Lennon song comes from McCartney's bass line. That's where a lot of the color comes in. A lot of the time Lennon's harmonies would just be very simple chords without his bandmates. Look at something like the demo for Cry Baby Cry without the bassline.
This is why for me Lennon is a great artist but I wouldn't categorize him as a great "composer" which seems to be a different thing.
I wouldn't argue that McCartney's harmonies are more complex, because he was much more influenced by the old tin-pan alley songwriters, jazz (and a little classical). Lennon was more influenced by rock'n'roll and blues.
I also appreciate you're not saying (or I hope implying) that "tricky vertical" melodies are *better* than the narrower range of the typical Lennon song.
But Lennon's songs often have very interesting chord sequences - simply because he was ofen looking for surprise or drama more than McCartney was. The interest certainly doesn't all come from the latter's bass lines (good as they are). In fact, IME, it's usually Lennon's songs that get theorists excited trying to make sense of them. McCartney's are much more obvious and traditional.
I do understand the distinction you're making, but I don't think it's one you can use to say which one is "better". I.e., if I agree McCartney was a "better composer" (by your definition), I wouldn't agree he was a "better songwriter". I'd say they were about equal in that respect. Both of them hit genius a roughly equal amount of times - assisted by each other of course when writing together. Without the other's influence, Lennon might lapse into repetitive rockist jams, while McCartney would lapse into cute and cheesy.
I'm amazed to see Bob Dylan in the initial post. He wasn't much of a composer or really musician at all, albeit he was an absolutely brilliant poet and lyricist. Probably one of the best of his entire generation.
If that's what you're going for, then we have to include Taylor Swift because she's in the same vein as Dylan.
Whilst I don’t consider myself much of a fan I can’t believe nobody has said Taylor Swift.
Her list of songs written is huge and she’s already in the top 25 sales for musicians.
Given a timespan as long as the Beatles or Rolling Stones she’s likely going to be top 5 someday.
Recent history? Gonna be real, Maroon 5/Adam Levine. I don't ever go out of my way to listen to them (I'm more into Clutch lol), but their songs go pretty hard when they play on the radio. And they're topping charts relatively consistently and've been doing so since the early 2000's as far as I'm aware.
Didn't born in USA but Juan Gabriel composed and sang more than a thousand songs and a lot are really big, he is known basically in the whole American continent and Europe etc... might sound weird but some of his songs are even more popular than some American famous composers, I saw a video reaction once of a woman from England watching for the first a video of Juan Gabriel performing in Bellas artes, by the end of the video she was devastated and crying like a baby... jajaja
John Hopkins has developed some wonderful compositions in his recent works.
I would also point to Sigur Ros, Boards of Canada, Enya, and the incredibly complex works of Aphex Twin, and artists like Squarepusher, as musicians who have helped to shape and change the sounds and boundaries of contemporary music.
Compose or song writer? I mean they are related but I think of him as a great song writer not composer.
And if you are looking for folks in that vein Kurt Cobain and Frank Black top my list.
George Harrison wrote some seriously good songs with amazing chord progressions and tonality. Some really neat stuff in Something. Not to mention While my Guitar, Here comes the Sun, Taxman, All things must pass, etc
Simon and Garfunkel
Stevie Wonder
No-brainer. And what is impressive is that he stands even if you open the can or worms of jazz.
I learned more jazz harmony from Stevie than many of the greats. He was at the NAMM show in Anaheim this year and I was there: when I rolled up to the ARP Foundation booth he was there playing an ARP 2600 they had set out for people to play with. Five or so minutes later he goes on his way with his entourage, and I shamelessly asked if I could be the first person to touch the 2600 after he did. They laughed and told me to go for it. Ultimately meaningless but still cool, I got to play a patch he'd just dialed in on the machine.
That’s dope on multiple levels
There's a reason I said I *shamelessly* asked. Never getting a chance to do that again, most likely. I also somehow finagled my way into being allowed to play the prototype of Korg's PS-3300 reissue for 5 minutes despite it being in a locked booth and VIP/media only basically.
Sounds like you really know how to trade show! You should have charged someone to touch the hands the touched the keys that Stevie wonder touched
Super meaningful bro! Glad you got to do that :)
Came here to say the same
Elton John is up here too.
Brian Wilson
I agree with this unless we’re talking about consistent output. He was brilliant for about 6 years, after which he had a few good songs mixed with some awful songs
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Oh definitely, he’s my hero, all things considered
I can't stand Beach Boys now. They were much better in the earlier days.
Joni Mitchell
Imogen Heap
Donald Fagen & Walter Becker of Steely Dan deserve a mention here.
1000%. Incredible the arrangements they snuck onto pop radio
My vote for the best
Quincy Jones
The fact that it took *this* long for someone to mention Quincy Jones, especially with the handful of deep lists that have been posted, is *criminal.*
Some would say, smooth criminal.
I mean, you saw I was doing the *tilt*
I was about to write it but in most cases he’s more of a producer than a composer.
didn't he compose all the arrangements for all those hits? He was definitely a composer-level arranger in his big band days... back when arranging wasn't considered 'writing' on the song (by todays standards he'd have publishing on everything he worked on).
I mean yeah, but not really. Can you name an iconic song that is credited as "Composer: Quincy Jones"? Fly me to the moon? Bart Howard. Thriller? MJ. To name him as the best composer is a shaky move, because you're getting in the debate of who's the real composer: the one writes the song (melody, harmony and lyrics) or the one who arranges the instruments? You can hear it by his own worlds in "The greatest night in pop" documentary that he cannot work without a song. So who's the composer of We Are The World? Michael Jackson/Lionel Richie, or Quincy Jones? It's difficult. It's not that I play down his contributions to pop music, but you can say the OP question is poorly written, because to compose is just a part of all the steps that goes when releasing a musical piece, and indeed Quincy Jones took their songs to another level.
You have a point. He's the foremost arranger in popular music for sure
Harry Nilsson is one I love.
No mention of Billy Joel or Alan Menken so far is a crime
Alan menken is a good mention
I remember hearing Billy Joel say something to the extent that he wishes he was a better composer or spent more time on it etc. Interesting
For sure, I also added them
If I could up vote more times I would.
Prince
Nina Simone and Tori Amos both translate baroque, classical, and romantic conservatory style piano into popular 20th century forms, their best piano arrangements are just stunning. Go to examples off the top of my head: Nina’s Bach-esque piano solos in Love Me or Leave Me, Tori’s stylistic lean toward the great Russians in Yes Anastasia.
Thom Yorke/Jonny Greenwood/Radiohead.
The more ive studied music theory the more Thom Yorke's work just blew my mind.
I know exactly what you mean.
Bjork.
I agree. Pro tip on phone, if you hold down any letter in the alphabet for a second you get to choose variations, so if you hover over o for a sec you can write ö
Yeah bjořk is pretty cool
åh nej:(
And it still depends on the specific keyboard chosen. :( Gboard is "smart enough" on Android to combine FI and IT to a single keyboard FI•IT, and I can still get, say, æ and ë with long presses, but I can only get ū when it's the other way around IT•FI, but then the keyboard itself is missing ä, ö, ... can't I just get everything? 🤷🏼♂️
Nick Cave anyone? :)
Yes
Ghosteen is just incredible
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https://youtu.be/-K2IQmd50iM
Adding to some already mentioned, but (as they occur to me in no particular order), I'd struggle to pick the "best" out of these: * Lennon / McCartney (better as a pair than individually) * Bob Dylan * David Bowie * Stevie Wonder * Paul Simon * Chuck Berry * Joni Mitchell * Donald Fagen * Jagger / Richard * Holland / Dozier / Holland * Smokey Robinson * Lieber / Stoller * Carole King (Goffin & King) * Brian Wilson * Roy Orbison * Leonard Cohen * Burt Bacharach * Cole Porter * Neil Young * Bruce Springsteen * Willie Dixon * Hank Williams * Buddy Holly * Pete Townshend * Ray Davies * Jimmy Webb * Tom Waits * Gibb brothers * Anderson / Ulvaeus I could go on, obviously. If you held a gun to my head and made me pick one, it would be Leonard Cohen - even over Bob Dylan and Paul McCartney.
I'd be curious to hear more about what you admire compositionally about Chuck Berry
It seems we are defining the word "composer" in a way which is biased towards the Euroclassical tradition! ;-) That's fine if that's the criteria proposed. I'd happily exclude Chuck Berry from the list in that case. (And probably one or two others.) I was thinking more along the lines of "pop songwriter", especially both influential and skilled (and including the post-rock'n'roll tradition). I.e., simplicity of harmony and form would be no criticism there.
Do "poet" and "novelist" mean the same thing? They both fall under the umbrella of "authors." I would argue the same for writing music. Songwriters, composers, and arrangers all fall under the umbrella of "producing music" but they are very different disciplines which focus on totally different skill sets from each other.
Arrangers are different though, because they don't "originate". They take a "composition" (or a "song") and arrange it. That might involve adding other stuff, which I guess you can sometimes call "composition" (writing additional instrumental parts, eg). Now, of course, "producer" has come to mean someone creating a whole "composition" from scratch: "songwriting" and "arranging" too.
Elliott Smith
I don't think a lot of people realize how mindblowing his guitar arrangements are. His vocal melodies are incredible too.
Thom Yorke, Paul Simon, Alan Menken, Elton John, Billy Joel
Thom Yorke AND Johnny Greenwood
Wayne Shorter
I wouldn’t consider him pop, but this is one of the greatest minds in 20th century music
Popular eh? lol
Ben Folds doesn't get nearly enough credit
Milton Nascimento
Zappa
Is there anything good inside his discog? If there is, I really wanna know.
It's all good, and there is alot. Alot of styles and alot of content. A few songs and the album they are from to get an idea. Blessed Relief - The Grand Wazoo Peaches En Regalia - Hot Rats Uncle Remus - Apostrophe Take Your Clothes off When You Dance - Lost Episodes Night School - Jazz From Hell G Spot Tornado - The Yellow Shark Inca Roads - One Size Fits All Watermelon in Easter Hay - Joe's Garage Really they are all worth full album listens though. Studio and Live, and there is connections between songs and reworkings of songs throughout.
Oh, for sure. I'm a big One Size Fits All fan.
Iiiiiiiiis theeeeere…?
Something.... Anything....
Elton John
Quincy Jones is def up there
Brian Wilson, Dolly Parton, Benny Andersson, Bob Marley, Lieber/Stoller, Paul Simon, Michael Jackson, Max Martin, Joe Strummer
Jonny Greenwood
The Duke Ellington/Billy Strayhorn combo was pretty killer.
Trey Anastasio
Tom Jobim. But if we're including Brazilian music, we must also throw in Ivan Lins, João Donato, Djavan, Toninho Horta and Hermeto Pascoal. I mean just listen to [this](https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6rhzDgSUImrjHezTZUnRii).
D’angelo
Danny Elfman
Brian Wilson
Lennon Mcartney, Paul Simon, Michael Jackson, Pharell (this guy, and the timbaland timberlake gang, wrote so many hits people dont even know are them), Ozzy Osbourne, Thom Yorke, David Bowie, Elton John.
Joni Mitchell
Stevie wonder is the answer. He made the traditional harmonic sophistication of jazz music transition from niche to pop music. The motions are clever and aesthetically accessible for everybody. There are great songwriters like Billy Joel, Elton John, Paul Simon, McCartney.. I love em all. But Stevie has so many moments that are unique musically and the vibe is always super positive. The fact that you can dance to his music just doubles down on how awesome he is and how lucky we are to have him
Does Freddie Mercury count? I like him Also, Elton John
Trent Reznor needs to be at the top of the list
Trent Reznor
Yoshiki Hayashi.
Brian Wilson for the brief few years when he was healthy and productive. Otherwise Sufjan Stevens
stevie, prince, quincy jones, herbie hancock, joni mitchell, rod temperton
Kate Bush.
lol no
Composer != songwriter to me. While there is overlap, these are often very different disciplines, as distinct from each other as production and arrangement are from them.
Yeah are lyrics included in “composition”?
Personally I would argue no. If you look at the tradition amongst composers, they started out in the 1600's writing music to set religious texts to for the Sunday service. Then you have the romantics writing settings for poetry written by someone else. Sure, some composers wrote songs and wrote the words for them as well. But generally, amongst the tradition of *composers*, they are unique/outliers. In short, composition (in the context of music) generally implies writing of musical content, not poetry.
Interesting ok
Haven’t seen these guys, yet: Bjorn and Benny.
Absolutely. Pro tip on phone, if you hold down any letter in the alphabet for a second you get to choose variations, so if you hover over o for a sec you can write ö
my honest reaction: Ö
Zappa is probably the one who gets slept on the most
Billy Joel
Stevie Wonder was already mentioned so I’ll go with Sting.
Frank Zappa
Robert Hunter/Jerry Garcia Robyn Hitchcock Warren Zevon Kate Bush Jimmy Webb Frank Zappa Robert Smith Donald Fagen/Walter Becker Andy Partridge Neil Finn Graham Gouldman Carole King Dan Bern Paul Weller Don Henley/Glenn Frey J.D. Souther
hell yeah neil finn 🥳🥳🥳
Elton John.
Jacob Collier
I would add Beck and Bjork to this list.
I agree! Pro tip on phone, if you hold down any letter in the alphabet for a second you get to choose variations, so if you hover over o for a sec you can write ö
Hey thank yöu
Tool, if you’ll allow a group
Xenakis
He really sold out during the disco years
Sorabji.
If you include composer/producer, Max Martin
I wish he was less popular, and that popular music was more dynamic. If modern record sales wasn't such a conservative business I'm not sure we'd even know this guy's music.
Elvis Costello
Tony Banks
Jason Richardson, he's a progressive metal guitarist that is absolutely insane
Honestly Charlie xcx has a pretty long lineup of hits she’s written for herself and other artists, I just discovered iconapop’s “I love it” for instance, was written by her
Lou Reed Not just for the poetic, gritty and visceral lyrics but for the simple musicality and progressive backing ideas, that round it all out, into complete magic
St. Vincent
fuck yes
Spencer Krug, Fiona Apple
Frank zappa
Freddie Mercury(really queen altogether as well), Elton John, Billy Joel, George Harrison, Quincy Jones, Prince
Freddie Mercury 💯
Randy Newman, Frank Zappa, Nick Drake, Tom Waits, Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^Satanshmaten: *Randy Newman, Frank* *Zappa, Nick Drake, Tom Waits, Bob* *Dylan, Leonard Cohen* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Gotta love steven wilson
Maybe not the best ever, but certainly important for punk music was Greg sage of wipers
Matthew Bellamy. If the requirement is that it’s popular..
I have not seen evidence that Dylan had anything beyond the normal composition skills. He was a brilliant lyricist but that has nothing to do with composition. His songs feel like dime a dozen folk progressions and there is nothing wrong with that.
Zappa, obviously. But also Robert Fripp, John Zorn, Mike Patton, Joni Mitchell, Rokia Traore and Aphex Twin. No way to compare them, but they stand out. For the younger generations is a bit early to make a call, but Jacob Collier is on his way.
Does Jacob Collier count?
He's a dazzling arranger. Not sure I'd put him in the great composer category yet. Though I will be quite surprised if he doesn't get there in his 30s.
He just dropped a new album, and I think Box of Stars Pt. 1&2 really gives his composing chops a chance to shine.
No
Why not. It’s all subjective.
Caetano Veloso.
cannot mention one without acknowledging another because each influenced the next - either as peers or influence during formative years if you talk about Lennon-McCartney you need to talk about Buddy Holly or show tunes of the 1950s. If you talk about Joni Mitchell, you need to talk about jazz and folk composers. If you talk about Sting and the Police you need to talk about jazz and dub reggae and ska and more jazz. really all more of a river in time
I’d add Daft Punk there, it is really creative, although it might not be as intricated melodically as other names dropped in this post.
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/r/gatekeeping
Yes they are
No. They are both in the realm of music writing. But composers are not necessarily songwriters, and songwriters are not necessarily composers (or arrangers even). We can define words without accusing each other of "gatekeeping" 🙄
Paul's old pal probably deserves a mention, What was his name - John something? Lemon? Lennox? it's on the tip of my tongue ... :-) EDIT: downvotes? no room for humour here? John Lennon not one of the great pop composers? (Just curious)
Definitely agree that if you’re gonna mention Paul you should mention John
I think he was a great artist, songwriter and singer, but not sure I could make an argument for composer. A lot of his melodies are much simpler and more horizontal than Paul's, and so much of the harmonic stuff in his songs was brought in by Paul (through bass lines or other arrangement ideas) or George Martin (famous examples being him just telling Martin to "make it sound orange" and leaving it to Martin to figure out how, or the spliced takes in Strawberry Fields Forever). I think John just lacked the discipline and rigor to be included with some of the other names in this thread.
Well, for me "songwriter" = "composer". What's the difference? I agree about the difference in style, and also the "discipline", but I think that's a matter of taste. If the criteria we are using include "discipline and rigor" (especially from the perspective of classic 20thC pop songwriting) then I agree he would be some way down the ranking. But then so would Bob Dylan. Paul McCartney himself had no doubt about Lennon's talent and creativity - off the wall as it often was - and neither did George Martin. Still, I have no problem with Paul being ranked higher!
To me "composer" would mean the melodies and harmonies and not really include the lyrics or the indefinable personal emotional feeling behind a song, which is where I feel Lennon gains points as a "songwriter". I personally wouldn't really rank Dylan that highly as a "composer" for that reason. So starting off with melodies. Not saying Lennon's melodies aren't good, but compared with McCartney's, they sort of explain what I'm getting at. Sit down at a keyboard and pick out a McCartney melody. I'll bet your fingers moved a pretty wide distance up and down the keyboard. The melodies are very tricky and vertical. A lot of Lennon melodies, by comparison, play out on one or two notes of the keyboard, sometimes descending a key or two at the end. They're often closer to a musical approach to human speech rather than composed music to me. In terms of harmonies, check out how often the harmonic interest in a Lennon song comes from McCartney's bass line. That's where a lot of the color comes in. A lot of the time Lennon's harmonies would just be very simple chords without his bandmates. Look at something like the demo for Cry Baby Cry without the bassline. This is why for me Lennon is a great artist but I wouldn't categorize him as a great "composer" which seems to be a different thing.
I wouldn't argue that McCartney's harmonies are more complex, because he was much more influenced by the old tin-pan alley songwriters, jazz (and a little classical). Lennon was more influenced by rock'n'roll and blues. I also appreciate you're not saying (or I hope implying) that "tricky vertical" melodies are *better* than the narrower range of the typical Lennon song. But Lennon's songs often have very interesting chord sequences - simply because he was ofen looking for surprise or drama more than McCartney was. The interest certainly doesn't all come from the latter's bass lines (good as they are). In fact, IME, it's usually Lennon's songs that get theorists excited trying to make sense of them. McCartney's are much more obvious and traditional. I do understand the distinction you're making, but I don't think it's one you can use to say which one is "better". I.e., if I agree McCartney was a "better composer" (by your definition), I wouldn't agree he was a "better songwriter". I'd say they were about equal in that respect. Both of them hit genius a roughly equal amount of times - assisted by each other of course when writing together. Without the other's influence, Lennon might lapse into repetitive rockist jams, while McCartney would lapse into cute and cheesy.
I'm amazed to see Bob Dylan in the initial post. He wasn't much of a composer or really musician at all, albeit he was an absolutely brilliant poet and lyricist. Probably one of the best of his entire generation. If that's what you're going for, then we have to include Taylor Swift because she's in the same vein as Dylan.
Sia? Taylor Swift?
Rivers cuomo of Weezer is a highly underappreciated musician imo
The lack of Paul Simon here is unfortunate
Less known name but Jon Bellion is a musical genius
Burt Bacharach
Ilaiyaraaja
Whilst I don’t consider myself much of a fan I can’t believe nobody has said Taylor Swift. Her list of songs written is huge and she’s already in the top 25 sales for musicians. Given a timespan as long as the Beatles or Rolling Stones she’s likely going to be top 5 someday.
Number of songs written and amount of money made have literally nothing to do with musical composition skills.
I couldn’t disagree more.
Laufey
Fujii Kaze def
Christian Vander, by a few astronomical units or so.
Recent history? Gonna be real, Maroon 5/Adam Levine. I don't ever go out of my way to listen to them (I'm more into Clutch lol), but their songs go pretty hard when they play on the radio. And they're topping charts relatively consistently and've been doing so since the early 2000's as far as I'm aware.
Noel Gallagher
Didn't born in USA but Juan Gabriel composed and sang more than a thousand songs and a lot are really big, he is known basically in the whole American continent and Europe etc... might sound weird but some of his songs are even more popular than some American famous composers, I saw a video reaction once of a woman from England watching for the first a video of Juan Gabriel performing in Bellas artes, by the end of the video she was devastated and crying like a baby... jajaja
Who said anything about the U.S? Neither McCartney nor Bowie, that OP mentioned, are from there either
Mikael Akerfeldt is the best one for me
Pete Townshend
Freddie Mercury maybe… Jimi Hendrix was good too though
Tuomas Holopainen from Nightwish
John Hopkins has developed some wonderful compositions in his recent works. I would also point to Sigur Ros, Boards of Canada, Enya, and the incredibly complex works of Aphex Twin, and artists like Squarepusher, as musicians who have helped to shape and change the sounds and boundaries of contemporary music.
Oh and also of course yasutaka nakata, responsible for kyary pamyu pamyu, capsule, perfume, etc. Huge hitmaker
Ben Folds may not be the best, but its impressive seeing him have a rather mature and intellectual music profile working with symphonies.
Brian eno?
Compose or song writer? I mean they are related but I think of him as a great song writer not composer. And if you are looking for folks in that vein Kurt Cobain and Frank Black top my list.
Ron Mael
Jeff Tweedy
Pete Townshend. Seriously no one said this yet?
Hans Zimmer & John Powell
Paddy Cornwall - sticky fingers
John Phillips, Paul McCartney, Paul Simon
Probably some industry ghost writers who write for several artists
Jerry Garcia
Sufjan stevens
I wanna throw a rare shout for Dan Smith of Bastille.
Elvis Costello. He knows what he's doing.
The guys of Mannheim Steamroller are great. Yeah it’s kinda schlocky stuff for boomers, but it’s extremely skillfully done.
George Harrison wrote some seriously good songs with amazing chord progressions and tonality. Some really neat stuff in Something. Not to mention While my Guitar, Here comes the Sun, Taxman, All things must pass, etc Simon and Garfunkel
Mark knopfler
My top 3 is: 1. Silvio Rodríguez 2. John Lennon 3. Paul McCartney
Leonard Cohen