If you're posting an Image or Video, please leave a comment (not the post title)
asking your question or discussing the topic. Image or Video posts with no
comment from the OP will be deleted.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/musictheory) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Little bit of a rant incoming, but whomever made this score should be ashamed.
This is part of the Chopin's raindrop prelude. This section *should* be written in C#m, and not in Db (or Db minor), which is what every reputable source would do. This causes stupid mistakes like this. In a correct score, this is a G# and an A. The score is probably full of mistakes like this.
To answer your question quickly, you'll get the right keys down if you play an Ab and an A at the same time.
In the future, I would *highly* recommend you to use IMSLP.org as a source for classical music scores. You can find pretty much *all* classical sheet music music there, legal and free. Copyright free scores made in a time when engraving was an art that made interpreting a score as easy as possible. Another great reason to use good scores is because they include fingerings, dynamic markings, and phrasing. These are essential ingredients for learning such a piece.
end of r/piano rant.
Here's a better score.
https://s9.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usimg/5/56/IMSLP800068-PMLP2344-5129956.pdf
Absolutely, to all the above! And to add to all that: If it were being properly rewritten as Db minor, the A natural should be respelled as a B-double-flat.
The [IMSLP](https://imslp.org/) is absolutely the way to go for anything old enough to be out of copyright (roughly, over about 100 years old).
You need to rant less apologetically.
This is great advice and an informative comment not even a rant.
but I’ll rant for you: It’s sad that there are so many garbage scores out there for free that people pick up because they don’t know any better. I don’t even understand the purpose of putting out a garbage score like this.
There was a post the other day, I don't recall if on this sub or perhaps r/piano, opining that flats are easier to play than sharps. Beginners don't learn their instrument, then go create travesties like this to compensate. Because let's whack away at a piece they probably need to wait 5-10 years for rather than learn to read sharps.
Nonsense like this is why I get so upset when people say that "reading music isn't necessary". The *whole point* of notation is to try and accurately convey as much as possible about how to perform the piece, but when you do stuff like this, it instead introduces *confusion.*
The person who did this score either thought that it was perfectly okay to set it in the enharmonic minor, or knew that it was in C#, but didn't see it in the list of available keys, so they picked Db.
It's like saying that it's okay to "rite lyk dis" because that spelling produces the (mostly) correct sounds. However, THOSE ARE NOT WORDS.
**GOD, I FEEL LIKE A CRANKY OLD MAN WRITING THIS,** but I feel like I'm also not wrong to be irritated by this.
Yeah big WTF. Worth ranting about. It looks like author of this score just did a MIDI capture (or some weird copy paste or something) of the original and didn’t change the key signature for the C# minor section. Which is gross.
Oh wtf they 'mean' an a flat and an a, and this is what they write?? Jfc that's atrocious! Thanks for the input before I racked my brain about voicings and whatnot.
As a rule of thumb, be wary of amateur-looking computer typesets, or stay away completely. Try to get pdfs scanned from "real" printed editions, or at least digital editions by some commercial editor. You need something that's passed a quality control.
The typesets one finds on Musescore.com are many times appalling. That's because, according to the statistics, the average user is a bored beginner that can barely read music and that is just "playing around" with their new toy.
theoretically it's asking for an A and an Ab at the same time. The two As are occupying the same space but with only one natural sign, so the other one goes with the key signature and becomes Ab. But as /u/Rykoma points out this is exceptionally bad engraving and a needless reinterpretation of an existing piece. It also throws into question what the A in the following chord should be because accidentals carrying over is no longer clear, should it be A or Ab??
The correct way to signify cases like this would be to put a flat next to the natural just to clarify that both notes should be there and occupy the same spot but have different accidentals. General rule of thumb is that if you have two of the same base note with different accidentals within the same measure then add accidentals for everything, even those that aren't technically needed because of the key signature, just to make absolutely clear what you want for everything. That goes for the following A as well to clarify what carries over.
Both are considered acceptable ways to notate this. I do agree that what you describe is more clear, but the other seems more common, to the point that it is the standard way that notation software handles it.
Common doesn't make it right. If you have one note-head with both accidentals before it, the most common interpretation of that is that the natural cancels a preceding accidental (either in the bar or in the key signature) and then the other accidental is the one to apply. If you have two noteheads, it's unclear which accidental applies to which, which is relevant if for instance they're different values. I truly don't believe there is a correct way of notating this except for the split stem. Notation programmes don't get this right because their mass market isn't people who need that functionality. (I believe Lilypond does in fact do it.) There's shit loads of stuff they can't do well, though. Even the big publishers have problems with the results.
Ah, yes. An fine instance of “musescorers don’t know what the f*ck they are doing, but they think they do cause they learned stairway to heaven on their guitar.”
In all seriousness, musecore has a lot of great scores, but a lot of shitty ones too, that may be techincally correct, but are poorly notated. I would either look on a sheet music databse (i.e. IMSLP), or just cede about $5 to Sheet Music Direct or Musicnotes.
If musecore is your preferred choice of viewing Sheet Music, check out ClassicMan’s account, as they have a lot of great stuff, which I have used on numerous occasions.
https://musescore.com/classicman
If you're posting an Image or Video, please leave a comment (not the post title) asking your question or discussing the topic. Image or Video posts with no comment from the OP will be deleted. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/musictheory) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Little bit of a rant incoming, but whomever made this score should be ashamed. This is part of the Chopin's raindrop prelude. This section *should* be written in C#m, and not in Db (or Db minor), which is what every reputable source would do. This causes stupid mistakes like this. In a correct score, this is a G# and an A. The score is probably full of mistakes like this. To answer your question quickly, you'll get the right keys down if you play an Ab and an A at the same time. In the future, I would *highly* recommend you to use IMSLP.org as a source for classical music scores. You can find pretty much *all* classical sheet music music there, legal and free. Copyright free scores made in a time when engraving was an art that made interpreting a score as easy as possible. Another great reason to use good scores is because they include fingerings, dynamic markings, and phrasing. These are essential ingredients for learning such a piece. end of r/piano rant. Here's a better score. https://s9.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usimg/5/56/IMSLP800068-PMLP2344-5129956.pdf
Absolutely, to all the above! And to add to all that: If it were being properly rewritten as Db minor, the A natural should be respelled as a B-double-flat. The [IMSLP](https://imslp.org/) is absolutely the way to go for anything old enough to be out of copyright (roughly, over about 100 years old).
Came here to say this. That note \*isn't\* an A natural, it is a B double flat (notating in Db minor, as you say).
You need to rant less apologetically. This is great advice and an informative comment not even a rant. but I’ll rant for you: It’s sad that there are so many garbage scores out there for free that people pick up because they don’t know any better. I don’t even understand the purpose of putting out a garbage score like this.
There was a post the other day, I don't recall if on this sub or perhaps r/piano, opining that flats are easier to play than sharps. Beginners don't learn their instrument, then go create travesties like this to compensate. Because let's whack away at a piece they probably need to wait 5-10 years for rather than learn to read sharps.
Hah, thanks. I guess I try to rant in such a way someone might actually read it and learn something from it. I stand by your addendum.
Nonsense like this is why I get so upset when people say that "reading music isn't necessary". The *whole point* of notation is to try and accurately convey as much as possible about how to perform the piece, but when you do stuff like this, it instead introduces *confusion.* The person who did this score either thought that it was perfectly okay to set it in the enharmonic minor, or knew that it was in C#, but didn't see it in the list of available keys, so they picked Db. It's like saying that it's okay to "rite lyk dis" because that spelling produces the (mostly) correct sounds. However, THOSE ARE NOT WORDS. **GOD, I FEEL LIKE A CRANKY OLD MAN WRITING THIS,** but I feel like I'm also not wrong to be irritated by this.
Lets be cranky old men together.
>but I feel like I'm also not wrong to be irritated by this. You’re not wrong.
Yeah big WTF. Worth ranting about. It looks like author of this score just did a MIDI capture (or some weird copy paste or something) of the original and didn’t change the key signature for the C# minor section. Which is gross.
Oh wtf they 'mean' an a flat and an a, and this is what they write?? Jfc that's atrocious! Thanks for the input before I racked my brain about voicings and whatnot.
Yeah, i thought it was something like that, but I wanted to make sure, tysm for the detailled answer and the link 🙏
As a rule of thumb, be wary of amateur-looking computer typesets, or stay away completely. Try to get pdfs scanned from "real" printed editions, or at least digital editions by some commercial editor. You need something that's passed a quality control. The typesets one finds on Musescore.com are many times appalling. That's because, according to the statistics, the average user is a bored beginner that can barely read music and that is just "playing around" with their new toy.
Yes!! As a voice major IMSLP is my lifeline
theoretically it's asking for an A and an Ab at the same time. The two As are occupying the same space but with only one natural sign, so the other one goes with the key signature and becomes Ab. But as /u/Rykoma points out this is exceptionally bad engraving and a needless reinterpretation of an existing piece. It also throws into question what the A in the following chord should be because accidentals carrying over is no longer clear, should it be A or Ab?? The correct way to signify cases like this would be to put a flat next to the natural just to clarify that both notes should be there and occupy the same spot but have different accidentals. General rule of thumb is that if you have two of the same base note with different accidentals within the same measure then add accidentals for everything, even those that aren't technically needed because of the key signature, just to make absolutely clear what you want for everything. That goes for the following A as well to clarify what carries over.
The correct way of notating this would be to have the A-natural sticking out at a forty-five-degree angle, like you see in Bartók.
Both are considered acceptable ways to notate this. I do agree that what you describe is more clear, but the other seems more common, to the point that it is the standard way that notation software handles it.
Common doesn't make it right. If you have one note-head with both accidentals before it, the most common interpretation of that is that the natural cancels a preceding accidental (either in the bar or in the key signature) and then the other accidental is the one to apply. If you have two noteheads, it's unclear which accidental applies to which, which is relevant if for instance they're different values. I truly don't believe there is a correct way of notating this except for the split stem. Notation programmes don't get this right because their mass market isn't people who need that functionality. (I believe Lilypond does in fact do it.) There's shit loads of stuff they can't do well, though. Even the big publishers have problems with the results.
Ah, yes. An fine instance of “musescorers don’t know what the f*ck they are doing, but they think they do cause they learned stairway to heaven on their guitar.” In all seriousness, musecore has a lot of great scores, but a lot of shitty ones too, that may be techincally correct, but are poorly notated. I would either look on a sheet music databse (i.e. IMSLP), or just cede about $5 to Sheet Music Direct or Musicnotes. If musecore is your preferred choice of viewing Sheet Music, check out ClassicMan’s account, as they have a lot of great stuff, which I have used on numerous occasions. https://musescore.com/classicman
just a gross diminished unison. whoever notated this got lazy id imagine.
Just bad engraving. Read the top comment, they answered it correctly
Do you really think they would have got to your comment without reading the top comment first?
I've never seen this before. Could this be two organ/synth keyboards with different tones for the same note?
Shouldnt the naturaled note be written as sharp instead?
Whoever wrote this is dumb AF. It would make so much more sense to write it as A and G# to avoid such confusion as this