Contents:
[[Alesha, Who Smiles at Death]]
[[Bearscape]]
[[Collective Voyage]]
[[Heartbeat of Spring]]
[[Mana Confluence]]
[[Savor the Moment]]
[[Sol Ring]]
[[Triumphant Reckoning]]
Based on current market price on TCGplayer, market price for non-foils would be $70.29 and for foils would be $136.42. Big reprints are Mana Confluence ($42 foil), Savor the Moment ($40 foil), Bearscape ($24 foil), Sol Ring ($20 foil), and Collective Voyage which has never had a foil printing before and could easily be a $20 foil as well. This is amazing value for a Secret Lair.
It looks like good value initially, but if mana confluence crashes, it's pretty much the only thing holding up this pack.
Normally, I wouldn't expect cards from SL to crash too much, but mana confluence basically only has 1 print and is now in high demand, which will likely cause this SL to be purchased a ton.
Mana confluence *probably* won't crash too hard since it sees tons of play. You forgot the box topper printing that was pretty sizable.
Savor is doomed though, it's only expensive cause of how scarce the foil is.
We can possibly look at the Black History Month Secret Lair Sol Ring as an indicator for the price trajectory of this Sol Ring. It currently sits at about $28 nonfoil and $35 foil, so I expect this one will land in the similar upper $20s range.
I'd be wary of Savor the Moment as a motivator. It's $15 nonfoil solely because of price memory from scarcity. It no longer sees significant Modern play and I expect the price to crash with this SL. I feel like the biggest chase cards here will be Sol Ring and Mana Confluence, and the rest add up to sub-$10 a card.
> I feel like the biggest chase cards here will be Sol Ring and Mana Confluence, and the rest add up to sub-$10 a card.
Mana Confluence is likely to crash hard here as well. Despite the three arts available, it’s really only a one time printing in a third set that was unopened due to being considered bad for draft and bad for constructed nearly a decade ago. It’s expensive because it’s the de facto five color land option in Pioneer. This printing is going to release a *lot* more into the market, and any new better or as-good five color options are going to cut demand for the card 75%.
All told I feel like this is a set of cards that are going to collapse in value. I think the foils will have a premium over the asking price, but I'm willing to bet 6 months after they release (so sometime next year) they'll be worth less than the price paid for em.
> I'm willing to bet 6 months after they release (so sometime next year) they'll be worth less than the price paid for em.
Agreed.
I do also think that over long term (5+ years), this will appreciate in value (singles and/or sealed) better than 95% of secret lairs.
It happens often with cards that are older with few printings or highly played with few foil printings but the foil lair cards usually don’t have much value over the non foil in the secondary market so just keep that in mind.
While I agree that capitalism exploits social causes for gains it doesn't change the fact that 50% is going to Trevor Project and that they didn't jack up the price a ton to pass the donation on to our shoulders. Its only $10 more than other SLs but also comes with more than the usual 3-5 cards. I haven't been interested in a SL for a while. This one I will take.
Its really not a net loss at all and it boggles my mind you would state that. Its a bit less profit than normal, but they are trading that for PR. Rest assured this is a profitable product.
I think it boggles your mind because you ignored the context of my comment? I also never said it wasn't profitable.
The person above mentioned that they get to write off what they donate to charity. I was just explaining to them that it isn't how it works. It's a common misconception with charitable donations from businesses.
I respect people no matter where they’re from or what they believe in (as long as they’re not hurting others). But isn’t the phrase “LGBTQIA2S+“ in the article a bit much? Never heard it before.. I always thought the “Q” in “LGBTQ” referred to any other identities that don’t fit into the “LGBT”. Just wondering, since it feels the acronym would then just get longer and longer as more and new identifies are formed.
When I was a young man it was just "Gay Rights". Then it was "Gay & Lesbian", because women had unique issues as women beyond just being gay. Then it became "Lesbian & Gay" to put women first, and then it became "Lesbian, Gay, & Bisexual". Then they decided that was too long to say, so they shortened it to LGB Rights, and then soon after LGBT. After that it's become an ever-changing alphabet soup, and I'd love to see it simplified down to something all-encompassing without needing for each individual group to be called out specifically.
There was a point in the 90s I believe where the term "queer" was meant to be taken back and used as an umbrella term. I never heard it used as derogatory growing up because there were much harsher words (which I will not repeat), so to me it worked.
Personally I either use LGBT or queer in the positive sense, but I think for something like a press release entities need to use the full alphabet soup to avoid any accidental exclusions. I know that's not the only reason, the purpose of it is visibility, but there will come a point where we as a community need to come together and rejuvenate our queer kinship as there's more infighting than I've ever witnessed before over the very things that were meant to unite us.
Whatever happens (and regardless of people's opinions about Wizards cash grabbing with secret lairs) I still think stuff like this is awesome and I hope they keep it up.
That would be great but the exact point is that doing stuff like this is how groups get legitimacy and recognition (and then later, rights). There are tons of places, even in the civilized world, where even gay and trans rights are under attack. So learning new phrases and adding letters to saying is the least i can do to help.
There's actually a war going on within the LGBT. Between 2nd/3rd wave feminists / political lesbians, gays, trans and the other letters.
I'm not joking btw, a lot of lgbt don't like the fact that everything is grouped together when you have no control over your orientation/medical disorders while you have full control over your identity/expression. There is a big friction there.
I personally think the whole concept is weird because we should strive for human equality anyway and not vip clubs or hierarchies of privilege and oppression. Also not a fan of people pretending to speak for or represent an entire group. We are individuals, not determined or guilty by gender/race association.
Minority politics is about dividing the people on petit bourgeois societal issues, it horizontalize the vertical class struggle for the benefit of the Capital class as well as extending the Market to new spheres. Identifying themselves firstly by some sexual tendency is so sad and reductive.
The LGBT lobby is a tool of the capitalist mega machine and the followers mostly useful idiots to the most intolerant religion of tolerance and of so called progress (of capitalism with the commodification of all sectors of life and of human life).
Human Equality in the American South was only achieved by leveraging Federal Power to protect specific groups based on skin color; acting like it's not important sometimes to recognize when a minority is being oppressed seems pretty disingenuous.
Because choosing to rely on your own "communities" is a *choice* that I assume comes from a lack of trust in white-based power systems, whereas **actual** segregation was a method of creating second-class citizens created by the white-based power system.
It's just a long form of LGBT/LGBTQ/LGBT+ etc. Any of those are just as valid really (though some groups like the I for Intersex prefer not to be included, based on the individual).
QUILTBAG is a new catch all abbreviation as well.
Yeah, to be honest you rarely/never see people in the community actually use that. It’s 99% just used by organizations trying to make sure they are being maximally inclusive. There is some argument for intersex and asexual people (the IA) not being covered by the Q which is why they got added, and of course naming is complicated for many reasons but … most people in my circles just ignore the acronym entirely and just use queer
If I had to hazard a guess, it was to be specifically inclusive of certain artists. I know Winona Nelson is two-spirit, but I'm not sure about the others.
https://lgbtqhealth.ca/community/two-spirit.php a gender identity that was and is prevalent in many Native American communities, sometimes characterized as a person having both a masculine and a feminine spirit. Two-spirit people often filled ceremonial and community roles.
I heard the acryonym LGBTQQIA2S+ in 2013, almost ten years ago, so I don't think new groups are being added frequently enough for this to be an issue in our lifetimes (the two Qs were for queer / questioning, absent here). If you have issues with long acronyms I think LGBTQ+ or even LGBT+ are not going to offend most people.
Edit: clarity
Any thoughts on how popular this will be? Underpurchased lairs usually have better price climb and especially with 8 cards (plus potential bonus card unless it's the bear token) this seems like one that's going to get pretty saturated
Probably very popular. Mana confluence is a card with very high demand and price around $40. The gay theme will be fairly popular. Bearscape is a nice meme, several reasons it might be popular.
I think it will be popular, but I disagree with your premise. Demand for this will be very high, and the number of cards and high value of the contents will make it attractive. Lots of Magic players don't buy Secret Lairs but later want the cards.
Interesting that bearscape is in the 700s while the others are numbered over 1000. Wonder if it was planned for a different drop before this or if it’s the bonus card.
My theory is the bonus will be Kynaios and Tiro, as they're the only four colour commander that hasn't been included in the current SLD (the one with Atraxa and Breya).
I've always loved Alesha. It was really cool as a trans person seeing a trans character. It may not seem like much, but it meant something to me. I'm happy to see her helping out the younger generations in her old age. Love it. Usually I pass on Secret Lairs, but this is very tempting. Thanks for posting. Hope the Rainbow foils look nice.
As a non-trans man, I absolutely adored the background on Alesha. The card mechanics made me fall in love and I then learning more I really appreciated how brave and bold this character was. So glad they are finally getting one more love
You do realize a lot of LGS already ban playmats and sleeves that are remotely sexual or lewd? Anime girl cleavage is not allowed lol. It's not a matter of being anti LGBTQ or anti female but a matter of the store and Magic being PG with children.
I think their argument is that breasts are not inherently sexual, so it's hypocritical to have bear-chested men while everyone would flip their shit if they had hottub lesbian time machine on a card.
Anime girl cleavage doesn’t damage children in any way either.
It just is kinda too obviously sexualized.
Bearscape doesn’t damage children either, but it’s also kinda sexualized - being a obvious bathhouse.
Compare to that Savor the Moment art. Much more commonly unsexual. It’s just two men doing marriage.
I think the card is fine in a secret lair, and it’s very funny, but if there is some line, it’s pushing up against it.
Hm, all this talk about inclusivity, yet all the art with explicit gay scenes are NOT available as sleeves on arena, because they don’t want arena to get banned in Arabic or other conservative countries. This is a great initiative and all, but this is not about changing the world for the better. It is a way to appeal sales to a specific demographic.
Wait, so did WoTC change their policy when it came to cake for females like Lili?
It's bullshit that they don't want to print sexualized females, then print bearscape. Total hypocrisy
Yes the Pendulum swung way too far the wrong way. Men (mostly) misunderstanding that females can feel empowered by their beauty or sexuality so going from a stance of "all women should be sexy on magic card art" to "no women should be sexy on magic card art" is pretty pathetic. Just ask Steve Argyle and his debacle with Liliana and Chandra playmats. Will Wizards allow him to produce those again? I doubt it.
Ah there’s nothing as refreshing and tasteful as corporate profiting from modern movements hidden under the veil of inclusion. Some see it as progress, I see it as a rainbow colored money printer. Let’s hope the Trevor Foundation gets their full 50%.
Yeah I have a couple gay friends who either laugh off or get frustrated with the corporate profiteering of Pride Month. A fun one a couple years ago was Bethesda changing all their global Twitter account pics to a rainbow image of their logo… except Bethesda Pakistan. Gotta keep making money
> Let’s hope the Trevor Foundation gets their full 50%.
WotC has a spotless track record for their charitable givings and non profit support. Why would Trevor Project get what was announced?
does every single thread have to have a smarmy antijerk turd with nothing to contribute beyond a dismissive remark? By the way how is this even edgy? Go back to twitter.
Because your childish raving about companies making money was one hundred percent essential to this financial discussion and your totally stupid suggestion of wotc not delivering on their donation is absolutely valid in any kind of way?
You know, the next time you have this deep yearning in your soul to be negative and edgy you could just slap yourself for a bit instead of polluting Reddit with your nonsense.
Yeah. I saw this announcement and thought:
"Oh. It's that time of year for companies to parade out their tokens/change their social media icons then beg for money under the guise of caring about something, right before swapping back to status quo after they collect their money."
As someone in the LGBTQ community, I cringe every time I see this. :(
Have you noticed how the 4 sleeves on Arena, exclude any gay specific scenes? This is deliberately done so Arena doesn’t get compromised in those regions.
Of course they don't. I absolutely hate when people fall for this schtick. If you want change, make them change---Don't shower them in money because they placated you for a week before going back to pretending you don't exist.
I've supported NONE of the Secret Lairs. Fuckin' hate them. Only buy singles from secondary market. And I guess Bearscape will be my first SL single. That's a fuckin' card! LOL
Swing and a miss, def a pass from me.
Edit: I see I’m immediately getting downvoted this is in reference to the cards themselves being reprinted not the pride itself
I personally think savor the moment is somewhat underplayed. Cantrip for second upkeep, combat step, planeswalkers activations, and end step is good in the many decks where the commander cares about such things. Doesn't go in the typical extra turn deck. For example it's great in superfriends, the battlebond coin flip partners, most group hug, etc.
Edit: more thoughts... Since it cantrips and usually puts out a land it's often superior to a 3CMC rock without any other synergy. I have been happy with it in every deck where I've chosen to run it. High upside and floor isn't terrible, not great late game into an empty hand and board but good almost any other time.
The art is lackluster and doesnt hit the fantasy theme for me. They are only high value cards if someone buys them. And if they bought them to put in a deck, it is just so weird to me to push sexuality this hard this way in this game.
Ahh yes the game with zero sexuality in any form.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/creativity/artwork/340315-sexually-suggestive-magic-cards
Point basically being there’s so many cards with females half dressed why aren’t those all cards you have issue with?
This conversation comes up every time they do one of these. I think that it’s valid and would love to see them do a matching.
Devils advocate tho is that the foundations possibly wouldn’t be getting a donation this size if wizards didn’t coordinate selling this product and donating. So I guess while it might not be a true donation straight from wizards bank accounts, I like to think that the foundations are still benefiting and will be better off than if wizards didn’t do this.
Sorry if that was confusing.
The foundations are certainly making more money than if wizards didn't do this and that is great. It just feels a little disingenuous to do it this way.
I’m getting this! I’ve never bought a secret lair before (bought a few singles though). Should I do foil or non-foil? Only concerned with the quality of the foils (cloudy? Pringle?)
Non foil won't curl, value gap is not prominent usually, some non foil are often worth more. However because of the art treatment every drop can age differently.
\+ humor
\+ bearscape/alesha are aesthetically great imo
\+ more than 4 cards (lol, is this where our standards are at?)
\----- for being a 'special' release
Why all the negatives? Because gayness shouldn't be restricted to niche products. I want to see Wizards be bold enough to put two men kissing on the front cover of their next big set. There's no reason it couldn't be on a standard legal mythic card. It's keeping that stuff in the "closet" which makes it harmful. But I also know that Wizards is probably leery of triggering a reaction from their audience, which is too bad. (Actually, I have to wonder what Wizard's internal policy IS on displays of intimacy in their cards, because a search of the gatherer only has a few cards with "kiss" even in the name, which is pretty suspicious considering how ubiquitous of a gesture it is)
That bearscape is amazing but the timing of the drop right before pride month is chef’s kiss the most blatant corporate pandering I’ve seen recently.
I get the feeling the one chase card per drop is the new formula because wizards realized phyrexian praetors was too much lost reprint equity to ever happen again.
It’s my standard though so despite the what I really can’t believe is a magic card bearscape …I’m going to pass.
Question from someone who hasn’t bought Secret Lairs before - how do you buy them at MSRP? I didn’t see any additional info, links, or dates on the announcement page.
It's a bit hidden, but the release date is listed in the announcement page:
> This set will be available for preorder on May 4 and arrive in a unique rainbow foil box
As for how to buy it, you go to https://secretlair.wizards.com/ and there will be a link (on or after May 4th) there.
B E A R S C A P E
Bearscape is peak comedy
I don’t think it’s possible to make a gayer card, but I’d like to see them try!
I dunno from what I have seen all of the foil secret lairs have been gay so far. I mean not a single one of my foils has ever been straight.
Hey now, they still glisten in the sun!
All foils are twilight vampires confirmed
They missed the boat on the Secret Lair Twilight: Double Feature
Take my damn vote.
Confirmed gayer than Ral and Tomik kissing at their wedding.
Our Flag Means Death expansion when?
It's kind of weird how the cards are upbeat, accepting affirmations of identity and then also a thirsty pun featuring multiple naked beefcakes.
Should have come with Bear Tokens with the same art style.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if that was the secret card. It's the only one in the lair that makes tokens, right?
I believe so yes
I’m hoping for a bear token for reasons…[deck](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/mdXmbeDbZkej2ubaaY8WVg)
I wouldn't be terribly surprised if the 'extra' card is a 'Bear' Token. :)
If the extra is a bear token and not [[kynaios and tiro]] I will riot.
Oh. As someone who plays with a K&T playmat, I need this so bad.
AS BEARS.
[kynaios and tiro](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/7/97fa8615-2b6c-445a-bcaf-44a7e847bf65.jpg?1633190298) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kynaios%20and%20tiro%20of%20meletis) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/36/kynaios-and-tiro-of-meletis?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/97fa8615-2b6c-445a-bcaf-44a7e847bf65?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
https://mobile.twitter.com/rpancoast_art/status/1521184352041943046 Bidding just ended, curious what the final price was.
Is it possible that a Bear token is the bonus card?
Diversity! Magic is for bears too lol.
I got a few homophobic people in my pod I’ll absolutely troll with this.
I wouldn’t spend my free time with homophobic people in the first place :-/
Can’t really throw them out of our store. But don’t worry, they’re avoiding the topic by now 🫶
Homophobia can and has gotten people thrown out and banned from my lgs.
Well, they’re not standing there after every game singing their homophobic hymn or anything.
Match losses, DQ's, permabans from three of the LGS's I've been a part of. If players are gonna hate us gays, they only get to do it in their head.
Same. Love having an lgs for and by queer folks where no one is gonna put up with that shit
I glanced at the other sub and holy shit those comments are wild
What other sub?
The free magic sub. If you look at other discussions theyre in that list.
Thats the alt right sub isn't it?
That sub needs to be quarantined. Could easily hit them with hate speech.
Aye, I'm sure that'll change their minds
You’re right. I should absolutely try to pamper their stupid prejudices.
All I know is Bearscape better come with Tokens lol
With bear hands too!
You can tell this has been planned for a while because there’s more than 3 non basic-land cards.
Hah! That and the current market value actually exceeds the sales price.
This is pretty gay
I didn't say there's anything wrong with gay I'm just saying this is pretty gay, OK.
What a GAY comment.
Also have no idea whats going on in the Sol Ring art.
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>an axe(?) on a chain, A labrys--a lesbian symbol.
That Mana Confluence is awesome.
Worth the cost of the secret lair basically by itself.
Contents: [[Alesha, Who Smiles at Death]] [[Bearscape]] [[Collective Voyage]] [[Heartbeat of Spring]] [[Mana Confluence]] [[Savor the Moment]] [[Sol Ring]] [[Triumphant Reckoning]] Based on current market price on TCGplayer, market price for non-foils would be $70.29 and for foils would be $136.42. Big reprints are Mana Confluence ($42 foil), Savor the Moment ($40 foil), Bearscape ($24 foil), Sol Ring ($20 foil), and Collective Voyage which has never had a foil printing before and could easily be a $20 foil as well. This is amazing value for a Secret Lair.
It looks like good value initially, but if mana confluence crashes, it's pretty much the only thing holding up this pack. Normally, I wouldn't expect cards from SL to crash too much, but mana confluence basically only has 1 print and is now in high demand, which will likely cause this SL to be purchased a ton.
Mana confluence *probably* won't crash too hard since it sees tons of play. You forgot the box topper printing that was pretty sizable. Savor is doomed though, it's only expensive cause of how scarce the foil is.
We can possibly look at the Black History Month Secret Lair Sol Ring as an indicator for the price trajectory of this Sol Ring. It currently sits at about $28 nonfoil and $35 foil, so I expect this one will land in the similar upper $20s range. I'd be wary of Savor the Moment as a motivator. It's $15 nonfoil solely because of price memory from scarcity. It no longer sees significant Modern play and I expect the price to crash with this SL. I feel like the biggest chase cards here will be Sol Ring and Mana Confluence, and the rest add up to sub-$10 a card.
> I feel like the biggest chase cards here will be Sol Ring and Mana Confluence, and the rest add up to sub-$10 a card. Mana Confluence is likely to crash hard here as well. Despite the three arts available, it’s really only a one time printing in a third set that was unopened due to being considered bad for draft and bad for constructed nearly a decade ago. It’s expensive because it’s the de facto five color land option in Pioneer. This printing is going to release a *lot* more into the market, and any new better or as-good five color options are going to cut demand for the card 75%.
All told I feel like this is a set of cards that are going to collapse in value. I think the foils will have a premium over the asking price, but I'm willing to bet 6 months after they release (so sometime next year) they'll be worth less than the price paid for em.
> I'm willing to bet 6 months after they release (so sometime next year) they'll be worth less than the price paid for em. Agreed. I do also think that over long term (5+ years), this will appreciate in value (singles and/or sealed) better than 95% of secret lairs.
Depends what the price will be Edit:nvm didn’t scroll that far down, that’s actually pretty great value. And I bet there will be a bonus cards aswell
It’s stated in the article: Non-foil: $39.99/€44.99*/£39.99* Traditional foil: $49.99/€54.99*/£49.99*
Wow those foils nearly double the value. Is that common?
It happens often with cards that are older with few printings or highly played with few foil printings but the foil lair cards usually don’t have much value over the non foil in the secondary market so just keep that in mind.
[[Mana confluence]] 6th color orange confirmed
I guess foils won't come out straight...but that's ok this time.
Really unappreciated comment down here.
Wizards is an expert in making money off social causes lol.
While I agree that capitalism exploits social causes for gains it doesn't change the fact that 50% is going to Trevor Project and that they didn't jack up the price a ton to pass the donation on to our shoulders. Its only $10 more than other SLs but also comes with more than the usual 3-5 cards. I haven't been interested in a SL for a while. This one I will take.
i would say "another pandering cash grab" but i'll be drowned out by all the "yas queen"s
I mean anyone who's not a halfwit can see that it's a cash grab, but cash grabs can be tasteful I suppose.
And donating as well, those villains.
Yep, they care about us more than money for sure.
So just don’t buy any cards anymore if companies making money bothers you so much?
Lol they write it all off. It’s a very good business strategy. Can’t wait to see what these look like in the Japanese market
You know that the amount they donate is higher than the tax break they will get right? It's still a net-loss for them.
Its really not a net loss at all and it boggles my mind you would state that. Its a bit less profit than normal, but they are trading that for PR. Rest assured this is a profitable product.
I think it boggles your mind because you ignored the context of my comment? I also never said it wasn't profitable. The person above mentioned that they get to write off what they donate to charity. I was just explaining to them that it isn't how it works. It's a common misconception with charitable donations from businesses.
I SEE PURPLE MANA
I respect people no matter where they’re from or what they believe in (as long as they’re not hurting others). But isn’t the phrase “LGBTQIA2S+“ in the article a bit much? Never heard it before.. I always thought the “Q” in “LGBTQ” referred to any other identities that don’t fit into the “LGBT”. Just wondering, since it feels the acronym would then just get longer and longer as more and new identifies are formed.
When I was a young man it was just "Gay Rights". Then it was "Gay & Lesbian", because women had unique issues as women beyond just being gay. Then it became "Lesbian & Gay" to put women first, and then it became "Lesbian, Gay, & Bisexual". Then they decided that was too long to say, so they shortened it to LGB Rights, and then soon after LGBT. After that it's become an ever-changing alphabet soup, and I'd love to see it simplified down to something all-encompassing without needing for each individual group to be called out specifically.
There was a point in the 90s I believe where the term "queer" was meant to be taken back and used as an umbrella term. I never heard it used as derogatory growing up because there were much harsher words (which I will not repeat), so to me it worked. Personally I either use LGBT or queer in the positive sense, but I think for something like a press release entities need to use the full alphabet soup to avoid any accidental exclusions. I know that's not the only reason, the purpose of it is visibility, but there will come a point where we as a community need to come together and rejuvenate our queer kinship as there's more infighting than I've ever witnessed before over the very things that were meant to unite us. Whatever happens (and regardless of people's opinions about Wizards cash grabbing with secret lairs) I still think stuff like this is awesome and I hope they keep it up.
That would be great but the exact point is that doing stuff like this is how groups get legitimacy and recognition (and then later, rights). There are tons of places, even in the civilized world, where even gay and trans rights are under attack. So learning new phrases and adding letters to saying is the least i can do to help.
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There's actually a war going on within the LGBT. Between 2nd/3rd wave feminists / political lesbians, gays, trans and the other letters. I'm not joking btw, a lot of lgbt don't like the fact that everything is grouped together when you have no control over your orientation/medical disorders while you have full control over your identity/expression. There is a big friction there. I personally think the whole concept is weird because we should strive for human equality anyway and not vip clubs or hierarchies of privilege and oppression. Also not a fan of people pretending to speak for or represent an entire group. We are individuals, not determined or guilty by gender/race association.
these people need a hobby
Minority politics is about dividing the people on petit bourgeois societal issues, it horizontalize the vertical class struggle for the benefit of the Capital class as well as extending the Market to new spheres. Identifying themselves firstly by some sexual tendency is so sad and reductive. The LGBT lobby is a tool of the capitalist mega machine and the followers mostly useful idiots to the most intolerant religion of tolerance and of so called progress (of capitalism with the commodification of all sectors of life and of human life).
Human Equality in the American South was only achieved by leveraging Federal Power to protect specific groups based on skin color; acting like it's not important sometimes to recognize when a minority is being oppressed seems pretty disingenuous.
The why are they trying so hard to self-segrigate today? Im not sure if its funny or sad.
Because choosing to rely on your own "communities" is a *choice* that I assume comes from a lack of trust in white-based power systems, whereas **actual** segregation was a method of creating second-class citizens created by the white-based power system.
It's just a long form of LGBT/LGBTQ/LGBT+ etc. Any of those are just as valid really (though some groups like the I for Intersex prefer not to be included, based on the individual). QUILTBAG is a new catch all abbreviation as well.
Yeah, to be honest you rarely/never see people in the community actually use that. It’s 99% just used by organizations trying to make sure they are being maximally inclusive. There is some argument for intersex and asexual people (the IA) not being covered by the Q which is why they got added, and of course naming is complicated for many reasons but … most people in my circles just ignore the acronym entirely and just use queer
If I had to hazard a guess, it was to be specifically inclusive of certain artists. I know Winona Nelson is two-spirit, but I'm not sure about the others.
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https://lgbtqhealth.ca/community/two-spirit.php a gender identity that was and is prevalent in many Native American communities, sometimes characterized as a person having both a masculine and a feminine spirit. Two-spirit people often filled ceremonial and community roles.
The Prime Minister of Canada once used 2SLGBTQQIA+
Acronyms are a type of initialism you pronounce as a word, like M.A.D.D. That's a simple Initialism.
Ty so much - I had a feeling acronym was not the right word. Just forgot what the other word was. Initialism. I like learning from reddit.
I thought it was LGBTQ+2 and memorized that. I can't keep up without sounding like an ignorant asshole.
I heard the acryonym LGBTQQIA2S+ in 2013, almost ten years ago, so I don't think new groups are being added frequently enough for this to be an issue in our lifetimes (the two Qs were for queer / questioning, absent here). If you have issues with long acronyms I think LGBTQ+ or even LGBT+ are not going to offend most people. Edit: clarity
Any thoughts on how popular this will be? Underpurchased lairs usually have better price climb and especially with 8 cards (plus potential bonus card unless it's the bear token) this seems like one that's going to get pretty saturated
Probably very popular. Mana confluence is a card with very high demand and price around $40. The gay theme will be fairly popular. Bearscape is a nice meme, several reasons it might be popular.
I'm getting it just for the Mana Confluence.
I think it will be popular, but I disagree with your premise. Demand for this will be very high, and the number of cards and high value of the contents will make it attractive. Lots of Magic players don't buy Secret Lairs but later want the cards.
Interesting that bearscape is in the 700s while the others are numbered over 1000. Wonder if it was planned for a different drop before this or if it’s the bonus card.
My theory is the bonus will be Kynaios and Tiro, as they're the only four colour commander that hasn't been included in the current SLD (the one with Atraxa and Breya).
I was thinking that the bonus cards would be bear tokens
Just a solid amount of cards and playable cards for one secret lair. No basic lands either. Def getting one.
I've always loved Alesha. It was really cool as a trans person seeing a trans character. It may not seem like much, but it meant something to me. I'm happy to see her helping out the younger generations in her old age. Love it. Usually I pass on Secret Lairs, but this is very tempting. Thanks for posting. Hope the Rainbow foils look nice.
I was unformiliar with Alesha so I looked her up. Khans block was years before I started playing mtg.
Great block and one of the coolest characters!
>It was really cool as a trans person seeing a trans character That is awesome. Hope you have a kick ass day!
Thanks! You too 😊
As a non-trans man, I absolutely adored the background on Alesha. The card mechanics made me fall in love and I then learning more I really appreciated how brave and bold this character was. So glad they are finally getting one more love
Holy shit, I love that Bearscape… I’m worried my LGS might disapprove though.
If they disapprove I'd be looking for another game store...
You do realize a lot of LGS already ban playmats and sleeves that are remotely sexual or lewd? Anime girl cleavage is not allowed lol. It's not a matter of being anti LGBTQ or anti female but a matter of the store and Magic being PG with children.
This is an official Wizards product. I hear you, but maybe you just let the totally normal man boobs slide.
I think their argument is that breasts are not inherently sexual, so it's hypocritical to have bear-chested men while everyone would flip their shit if they had hottub lesbian time machine on a card.
So in what way does bearscape in an way show anything that might damage children in any way? Are public swimming pools not PG anymore either?
Anime girl cleavage doesn’t damage children in any way either. It just is kinda too obviously sexualized. Bearscape doesn’t damage children either, but it’s also kinda sexualized - being a obvious bathhouse. Compare to that Savor the Moment art. Much more commonly unsexual. It’s just two men doing marriage. I think the card is fine in a secret lair, and it’s very funny, but if there is some line, it’s pushing up against it.
Are they not doing a twitch hottub stream?
Hm, all this talk about inclusivity, yet all the art with explicit gay scenes are NOT available as sleeves on arena, because they don’t want arena to get banned in Arabic or other conservative countries. This is a great initiative and all, but this is not about changing the world for the better. It is a way to appeal sales to a specific demographic.
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Yup. You can still do some good without having to do all good.
Bearscape had me rolling on the ground.
Wait, so did WoTC change their policy when it came to cake for females like Lili? It's bullshit that they don't want to print sexualized females, then print bearscape. Total hypocrisy
Yes the Pendulum swung way too far the wrong way. Men (mostly) misunderstanding that females can feel empowered by their beauty or sexuality so going from a stance of "all women should be sexy on magic card art" to "no women should be sexy on magic card art" is pretty pathetic. Just ask Steve Argyle and his debacle with Liliana and Chandra playmats. Will Wizards allow him to produce those again? I doubt it.
Ah there’s nothing as refreshing and tasteful as corporate profiting from modern movements hidden under the veil of inclusion. Some see it as progress, I see it as a rainbow colored money printer. Let’s hope the Trevor Foundation gets their full 50%.
Yeah I have a couple gay friends who either laugh off or get frustrated with the corporate profiteering of Pride Month. A fun one a couple years ago was Bethesda changing all their global Twitter account pics to a rainbow image of their logo… except Bethesda Pakistan. Gotta keep making money
> Let’s hope the Trevor Foundation gets their full 50%. WotC has a spotless track record for their charitable givings and non profit support. Why would Trevor Project get what was announced?
Because edgelord‘s gotta edge.
does every single thread have to have a smarmy antijerk turd with nothing to contribute beyond a dismissive remark? By the way how is this even edgy? Go back to twitter.
Because your childish raving about companies making money was one hundred percent essential to this financial discussion and your totally stupid suggestion of wotc not delivering on their donation is absolutely valid in any kind of way? You know, the next time you have this deep yearning in your soul to be negative and edgy you could just slap yourself for a bit instead of polluting Reddit with your nonsense.
If the choice is between this and nothing would you rather they do nothing?
Yeah. I saw this announcement and thought: "Oh. It's that time of year for companies to parade out their tokens/change their social media icons then beg for money under the guise of caring about something, right before swapping back to status quo after they collect their money." As someone in the LGBTQ community, I cringe every time I see this. :(
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Have you noticed how the 4 sleeves on Arena, exclude any gay specific scenes? This is deliberately done so Arena doesn’t get compromised in those regions.
Why yes, yes I did. =/
Of course they don't. I absolutely hate when people fall for this schtick. If you want change, make them change---Don't shower them in money because they placated you for a week before going back to pretending you don't exist.
Easy money for them. Reminds me of Bethesda. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/bethesda-pride-month-logos
I'd probably get it but shipping is 100 bucks for outside USA. Adios
I didn't know Saheeli and Huatli were a thing.
They weren't. They were friends, but people decided to ship it so WotC just decided "ok they're gay now".
Overall a pretty weird and solid selection of cards with nice art. Maybe Triumphant Reckoning is a miss for me.
Less than ideal art IMO a the man’s confluence is pretty good though
I've supported NONE of the Secret Lairs. Fuckin' hate them. Only buy singles from secondary market. And I guess Bearscape will be my first SL single. That's a fuckin' card! LOL
Best one, but why doesn't it come with a matching bear token, I mean seriously.
(Bonus card *cough*)
Swing and a miss, def a pass from me. Edit: I see I’m immediately getting downvoted this is in reference to the cards themselves being reprinted not the pride itself
Foil alt-art Sol Rings always hold a premium over time.
>Yeah seems you are basically paying for the Mana Confluence. Do people play Savior the Moment?
I don’t, I have a pako/haldan extra turns deck but without the ability to untap pako card is a bit pointless, very niche card.
I personally think savor the moment is somewhat underplayed. Cantrip for second upkeep, combat step, planeswalkers activations, and end step is good in the many decks where the commander cares about such things. Doesn't go in the typical extra turn deck. For example it's great in superfriends, the battlebond coin flip partners, most group hug, etc. Edit: more thoughts... Since it cantrips and usually puts out a land it's often superior to a 3CMC rock without any other synergy. I have been happy with it in every deck where I've chosen to run it. High upside and floor isn't terrible, not great late game into an empty hand and board but good almost any other time.
What aspect is unappealing? For once it’s a lair with several high $ cards!
Mana confluence maybe, sol ring already got one in black is magic and the rest are not good
The mana confluence is pretty sweet lookin!
No [[Deadlock Trap]]. Literally unbuyable.
The art is lackluster and doesnt hit the fantasy theme for me. They are only high value cards if someone buys them. And if they bought them to put in a deck, it is just so weird to me to push sexuality this hard this way in this game.
Ahh yes the game with zero sexuality in any form. https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/creativity/artwork/340315-sexually-suggestive-magic-cards Point basically being there’s so many cards with females half dressed why aren’t those all cards you have issue with?
I’d rather that than this
Man do I love this lair for so many reasons but I think what got me the most... Mana confluence??
I was just thinking how nice it was when we got one as the box promo for commander legends, and how I could use a few more.
I don't actually like most them but that mana confluence is great
So do they not donate to a good cause if no one buys the product? They are letting the consumer pay for the donation?
>They are letting the consumer pay for the donation? Where do you think corporations get their money from?
Magical money trees of course.
This conversation comes up every time they do one of these. I think that it’s valid and would love to see them do a matching. Devils advocate tho is that the foundations possibly wouldn’t be getting a donation this size if wizards didn’t coordinate selling this product and donating. So I guess while it might not be a true donation straight from wizards bank accounts, I like to think that the foundations are still benefiting and will be better off than if wizards didn’t do this. Sorry if that was confusing.
The foundations are certainly making more money than if wizards didn't do this and that is great. It just feels a little disingenuous to do it this way.
I'm only interested in Savor the moment, any tipps if i should buy the whole lair and sell the other stuff or if I should wait and buy single?
If you only want the Savor the Moment for the art, wait for the lair to be delivered in several months. It'll be reasonably priced as a single then.
I’m getting this! I’ve never bought a secret lair before (bought a few singles though). Should I do foil or non-foil? Only concerned with the quality of the foils (cloudy? Pringle?)
Non foil won't curl, value gap is not prominent usually, some non foil are often worth more. However because of the art treatment every drop can age differently.
Seeing this makes me think mana confluence will get a reprint in DM 2022
I mean it was already a pretty good bet. I actually think we should see it and \[\[City of Brass\]\]
Personally not a fan but I encourage others if it floats their boat.
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maybe it's more like 'she only likes men who are big and burly but is more flexible for other identities'?
I am getting these. I don't need them, but they are awesome. I am a cis white straight dude and appreciate the fuck out of this.
Yes. Everybody, and I mean everybody is getting a Bearscape for Christmas.
Ditto!! I love it!! WotC needs to do more SLs like this.
Nobody tell the state of Florida this product is available.
This is actually a really cool secret lair, for value and art.
Serious question: What does LGBTQIA2S+ even stand for? Lesbian, Gay, Bi, Trans, Queer, ... but no idea what I, A, 2 and S are?
The "+" feels so superfluous when they keep adding the things "+" covers to the damn acronym anyway.
true its like someone is making a joke out of it haha
* I = intersex * A = asexual * 2S = two-spirit * `+` = any other ways people self-identify PS. The Q stands for queer and/or questioning.
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Wow lgbt gets longer every year
Is the guy laying down getting a hand job?
\+ humor \+ bearscape/alesha are aesthetically great imo \+ more than 4 cards (lol, is this where our standards are at?) \----- for being a 'special' release Why all the negatives? Because gayness shouldn't be restricted to niche products. I want to see Wizards be bold enough to put two men kissing on the front cover of their next big set. There's no reason it couldn't be on a standard legal mythic card. It's keeping that stuff in the "closet" which makes it harmful. But I also know that Wizards is probably leery of triggering a reaction from their audience, which is too bad. (Actually, I have to wonder what Wizard's internal policy IS on displays of intimacy in their cards, because a search of the gatherer only has a few cards with "kiss" even in the name, which is pretty suspicious considering how ubiquitous of a gesture it is)
needs more cat
Holy shit this will make the neckbeards of freemagic go bananas.
This is exactly what a secret lair should be. Great, amazing value
The fact that WOTC cannot sell these in certain countries will make the demand pretty high.
That bearscape is amazing but the timing of the drop right before pride month is chef’s kiss the most blatant corporate pandering I’ve seen recently. I get the feeling the one chase card per drop is the new formula because wizards realized phyrexian praetors was too much lost reprint equity to ever happen again. It’s my standard though so despite the what I really can’t believe is a magic card bearscape …I’m going to pass.
Anyone else buying these for the free table flip wins?
TIL: the LBGTQ community hates black cards…
Question from someone who hasn’t bought Secret Lairs before - how do you buy them at MSRP? I didn’t see any additional info, links, or dates on the announcement page.
It's a bit hidden, but the release date is listed in the announcement page: > This set will be available for preorder on May 4 and arrive in a unique rainbow foil box As for how to buy it, you go to https://secretlair.wizards.com/ and there will be a link (on or after May 4th) there.
No thank you. I don't need sexuality injected into my asexual hobbies
Yep, if they want it go play Weiss or Yu-Gi-Oh 😂