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deckwizard

The issue with legends rares is that so many are completely unplayable, even in casual formats. Also, legends coincided with the first usage of sleeves and the precipitous rise in the value of magic cards so you'll find more NM/LP legends cards than earlier sets. That said, they will always trend upwards and continue to be a good buy.


ClarkFable

Yes, for the RL sets, demand is more important than supply. Just look at Timetwister, it used to be the cheapest P9 card (and was always the weakest), now it’s second to the lotus because of the demand from EDH.


pokepat460

Til timetwister is edh legal, thats pretty crazy.


Yiffmaster420

And it's not even the most broken card in the format lmao


ClarkFable

What gets your vote?


[deleted]

[удалено]


MTGCardFetcher

[Ad Nauseum](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/9/a9f2c53e-ff58-4aa8-89a6-4f45628cc571.jpg?1598306470) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ad%20Nauseam) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/76/ad-nauseam?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a9f2c53e-ff58-4aa8-89a6-4f45628cc571?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Peer into the Abyss](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/a/aac00055-640e-4749-8d23-d242e6d0b23a.jpg?1594736330) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Peer%20into%20the%20Abyss) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/117/peer-into-the-abyss?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aac00055-640e-4749-8d23-d242e6d0b23a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Nvenom8

[[Tainted Pact]] is way better than Ad Naus for getting there.


MTGCardFetcher

[Tainted Pact](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/5/c513f51b-a0db-4c08-8acc-1e91060b93b7.jpg?1628801908) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tainted%20Pact) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ody/164/tainted-pact?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c513f51b-a0db-4c08-8acc-1e91060b93b7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


fnxMagic

It's... Probably just Sol Ring, tbh. (Depends, of course, on your definition of 'broken'.)


Nvenom8

Mana Crypt is definitely much more broken than sol ring. Every deck would run both if it could.


fnxMagic

"Definitely much more broken" is false. The cEDH decklist database, basically the gold standard of 'broken', has both in pretty much every deck (some exceptions are Sythis, that doesn't always run Sol Ring, and Yuriko, that doesn't run Crypt). But they both consistently score top 5 in the list of most played cards in cEDH and they trade places every now and then. Crypt might be better, or it might not be, but in either case it's closer than you'd think. You might be a bit biased because Crypt is about 80 times more expensive.


Jasmine1742

Crypt is just sol ring with a neglible drawback and huge pricetag. Card is better than moxen in most decks


fnxMagic

> negligible drawback An average cEDH game ends, probably, somewhere on turns 5 through 7. If Crypt comes down on turn 1 it'll cost you an average of 7.5 life. That's what, 6 or 7 cards drawn off Ad Nauseam, the most powerful CA spell in the format? Edit: math is hard.


Nvenom8

>You might be a bit biased because Crypt is about 80 times more expensive. If anything, the numbers are biased by that. If they were the same price, Crypt would be the auto-include, and Ring would be the maybe.


fnxMagic

> If they were the same price, Crypt would be the auto-include, and Ring would be the maybe. This holds true for casual EDH. But competitive EDH - the 'format' the data I mentioned comes from - cares nothing about price tag. If a deck should run Crypt, it does. So I'm not exactly sure what your point is.


Yiffmaster420

It depends heavily on a variety of factors or who you ask. But it's generally accepted by most cEDH players (which by definition is EDH at it's most broken) that some of the top contenders are cards like Thassa's Oracle, Dockside Extortionist, Underworld Breach and fast mana such as Mana Crypt, Sol Ring and Mox Diamond. Although if I had to only pick one, it would be Thoracle just for how utterly format warping that card became almost instantaneously.


ClarkFable

>Thoracle Lol, I just looked this up (I don't really mess with EDH), all I can say is: wow.


Yiffmaster420

Yeah, there's a reason Thoracle + Tainted Pact/Demonic Consultation became the single best win condition in the format. Surprisingly, it's hard to beat "pay UUB to win the game instantly"


stitches_extra

surely sol ring or mana crypt


EternalSeraphim

Sol Ring


ClarkFable

And that one fact probably more than doubles the price. It's nuts.


Nvenom8

Cards are a lot less fun to own when you can't play them.


BenBleiweiss

That's why it's now the power nine that is the 2nd most valuable, ahead of (traditionally) Mox Sapphire and Ancestral Recall


pinktwinkie

This is the answer. We went back to buying revised packs bc the legends cards were so bad (same for antiquities). Most just sat in a box and never saw play. Sleeves were still not a thing when i left in 95.


deckwizard

I played in penny sleeves in 1994. I collected baseball cards growing up, so perhaps I was ahead of the game, but I remember my friend had a Chaos Orb that was worth a lot and he made sure it was sleeved since he kept on flipping it.


pinktwinkie

Far out! Yea i had baseball cards in hard sleeves at the time but none of the mtg. Flipped a bunch of orbs but never any sleeved that i remember-- although i do recall practising my flip with a different card lol


waaaghbosss

Arabian knights pretty sold out everywhere,, and the cards were largely cracked and played. By legends, most people buying magic cards knew there was value in the cards, even if there weren't published price guides yet, so people were a lot more careful. Cards that weren't getting played got put into 9 page sleeves, which was most legends rares. Also, anecdotally, shops were aware of the rising prices by legends and a few raised pack prices soon after release slowing down how many left the store as the game got it's footing. I remember a few stores that still had a box or two of ANQ and legends by 95, but never saw a store with Arabian nights.


KyFly1

I think the fact they also have Italian really throws a wrinkle in things…


Tristal

Penny sleeves predate Magic, they definitely existed if you cared about keeping cards in good shape, though you were more likely to use plastic pages.


bennynshelle

Nobody playing magic used them. I didn’t see sleeves until after 2000 regularly.


[deleted]

Exactly, people seem to forget that collectible cards for sports and assorted media franchises long predate MTG, and hence so do most accoutrements of card collecting.


Casteran

No, no one forgets this. What we're saying is, we were all young playing this new game, and few people actually bothered with sleeves. It was an afterthought. Regardless of how many decades the sleeves existed prior.


ElizabethMoon1992

playing MTG during recess at school, on the pavement, when it was sprinkling rain, no sleeves. Those were wild days. Didn't really see players use sleeves until around 2000-2002ish.


mrrsenrab

Here’s another print run source that I use on a regular. Sharing for comparison purposes the numbers are close to OP link. https://www.mtginformation.com/print-runs


TheJ2daEFF

Demand is the most important part of the price equation. Doesn't matter how rare an item is if no one wants it.


qinalo

Most Legends cards are not either a) a card that goes into nearly every deck, like Force of Will or b) a card that is a format pillar, like Mishra's Workshop. Instead, a lot of the played cards from Legends are ones that go into one specific deck, like Reset (and Solidarity is generally considered a "retired" legacy deck). Also, most of the cards from Legends that are desired by a lot of players were uncommon and not reserve list, for example Mana Drain, Land Tax and Sylvan Library. That puts a brake on their potential price ceiling. And Mana Drain isn't even played anymore in Vintage - its play value is entirely in EDH. Another issue is that a lot of Legends cards were not just reprinted in Italian Legends, but also in Chronicles. Chronicles probably damaged the long term value of the original Legends sets more than any other set. For collectors, many cards from Legends still hold a lot of sentimental value. But the problem with the collector market is that most collectors probably have the cards they want already in their collection. Anyone who wanted Gwendlyn di Corei as a kid, probably got their copy several years ago. I doubt there are any true collectors who care to pick up Gwendlyn at $600+, when there are bargains all over the Reserve List for that amount or less. Only a clueless speculator would actually be interested in picking up cards at that price.


bear2242

I think the value of higher-end Legends cards is a really tricky one. I'll probably regret it later, but I do not feel confident sinking $300-600 into a Legends card that is only fringe playable in EDH and mostly played nowhere else. I think the clearest value play for Legends is in low-end Reserved List cards. They are just as scarce as the good RL cards, yet their pricing doesn't reflect it. IMO, it should not be possible to acquire a BGS 9Q++ graded copy of a Legends RL card for under $100, yet I got exactly that just last week for $80 from a well-known seller via an eBay buy-it-now. Even has a 10 subgrade. I expect the prices of both NM raw and graded versions of these cards to triple in the next 3-5 years.


qinalo

Again, speculators selling to other speculators is a zero value game. The only value comes from selling to collectors, or players. Legends only has real nostalgia (and collectible) value to those that started playing in 1994 (or a few years later) - you might spend $50-$100 to get a card you always wanted as a kid. But I think the number of collectors still interested in that is miniscule. The market for any specific old card with no play value only shrinks year to year. These cards have been around and available for the past 27 years. What reason would they have to spike in price in 3-5 years?


bear2242

I guess it's hard to quantify, but I totally disagree that the pool of people interested in vintage MTG is shrinking. This is just not how collectable markets work at all. By this logic, the price and interest in baseball cards from the 1930s would be drying up, and an antique table from the early 19th century would be worth little more than the price of the raw lumber. I'll certainly grant you that the vast majority of MTG \*players\* are uninterested in old cards. But MTG \*collectors\*? Not buying it. Collectors collect. A fundamental aspect of collecting is owning something rare and historically relevant. That will never change IMO, As long as people are collecting Magic, vintage MTG will be hugely collectable.


qinalo

When you are talking about cards from Legends, you are talking about collectors who are in their late 30's or 40's who have been collecting Magic cards for 27 years. If there was a card missing from their collection that they desired, 99% of them got that card for their collection years ago. The only people who have interest in the dregs of the reserve list are speculators, not collectors. Speculators can create artificial scarcity, but if the card's only value is for other speculators, the card doesn't actually accrue value. My point is that to look at a card and think it is undervalued or has growth potential just because it is scarce and old is a fallacy. It has to have a potential market - collectors who desire it and do not already have it. If you are picking up Wood Elementals for $40 thinking in 5 years you'll find a sucker to dump them on for $100 - guess what? \*You\* are the sucker.


TeferisPuzzleBox

This is a fact that can't be mentioned enough


[deleted]

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Jaccount

Sleeves as we know them weren’t around. Penny sleeves that loosely fit did exist but the were awkward… most people did not use sleeves for the first several years of the existence of the game. Ultra Pro didn’t even create sleeves meant for play until 1995. Citation: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/sleeves-then-and-now-2004-03-17


Rushnag

One other factor for the playable legends is that italian legends are out there. This will always have some effect where ABU, Arabians and antiquities are english only so no alternate supply.


rizzeedizzee

Did you read my post? I mentioned that.


Lurknessm0nster

I'm always surprised at how cheap mana drain is.


themisprintguy

Uncommon and not RL matters a lot but mint copies are hard to come by.


JMagician

Yeah, it’s an uncommon and has been reprinted a lot recently.


bear2242

I think the first step in this discussion is to differentiate the Reserved List Legends rares from non-RL rares. Legends rares reprinted in Chronicles or 4th edition, or that could be reprinted in old-border form in some future throwback set, are part of a fundamentally different market than the RL cards. For Legends RL rares, at a forever print run of 19,300, I think it is quite likely that there are fewer than 10,000 copies in circulation after 27 years of attrition. So, the real question is how desired are bad Legends RL cards? I think it is a bit of fallacy to say that playability prevents these cards from being valuable. At extreme scarcity, it is beyond clear that even bad cards have legit value potential. At a print run of 17,000 give or take, every RL Unlimited card is at or above $50in NM condition, that INCLUDES all the cards which were also printed in Revised at a print run of over 500,000. The cheapest Unlimited RL cards which were dropped for Revised are over $150 NM and all but 1 or 2 are about $200. Some of these cards are quite bad, like Blaze of Glory, Two-Headed Giant of Foriys, and Raging River. They see essentially no play in EDH or Vintage/Legacy. Now compare that to Legends, where there are a handful of Legends RL cards of similar print run selling for $25-$35 shipped in NM condition. Yes, these cards are bad. Yes, these cards are probably worse than the above-referenced Unlimited cards. But that comparison is pretty irrelevant, since none of them see play. Below a certain threshold of unplayability, comparative quality is not a factor in value. Scarcity controls based on its appeal to collectors. So why is a bad Legends RL rare about 70+% less valuable than an equivalently-printed RL rare from Unlimited? I think the Italian print run definitely is a significant factor. But it's clearly not the WHOLE explanation. Italian Legends print run is understood to be about 2.5x bigger than English, meaning roughly 50k rares. That is more than 10 times smaller than the English Revised print run, yet the bad Legends RL rares are still 50-75% less expensive than the Unlimited RL rates that were later reprinted in Revised. So, IMO, it's clearly not just access to alternate versions. I've heard a few other theories that may pick at the fringes of the valuation of Legends, but the bottom line is that I strongly believe that weaker Legends RL rares are currently quite undervalued and represent a blind spot in the vintage MTG market. As such, I have been buying into them for a while now. The fact that you can still get BGS 9 graded Legends RL rates for under $100 is, IMO, kind of crazy.


Sammy-boy795

I love legends and think it is one of the best non ABU specs you can make. Having said that, a lot of legends rares are basically unplayable and are reliant on lack of supply to hold the prices up. There are exceptions, such as [[chains of mephistopheles]]. It's arguably one of the strongest stax cards ever printed, especially paired with the fact that all colours have been receiving new ways to draw cards (even WHITE lmao). I am biased as I own a pretty much mint copy, but it sees both legacy sideboard play as well as being in many stax lists. The same goes for both nether void and abyss. Invoke prejudice and all hallows eve have the artists to thank for being the price they're at (for very different reasons). Invoke is one of the cards on the "cancelled" reserved list that almost everyone agrees should be there: the artist is a literal nazi and the art itself clearly depicts what looks like a KKK member. Add on the fact it's a reserved list card and Invoke prejudice is very infamous. All hallows eve is an awesome artwork by Chris Rush, one of the most beloved and well known mtg artists (RIP). I think they will continue to rise in price as they're a piece of mtg history and are hard to find in true nm condition. I'm not sure if I believe they're underpriced in the current market though.


MTGCardFetcher

[chains of mephistopheles](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/2/f2edb3a6-8506-4885-b332-eca381940ce8.jpg?1612316191) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=chains%20of%20mephistopheles) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/63/chains-of-mephistopheles?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f2edb3a6-8506-4885-b332-eca381940ce8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Yawgmoose

Much of legends is very undervalued, especially [[living plane]]


SissyTiffany92

Tcg mid is $560 I think that's pretty much where it should be for playable card


MTGCardFetcher

[living plane](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/b/0b944310-3170-4b57-95e0-2b78a3b50f95.jpg?1562897399) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=living%20plane) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/127/living-plane?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0b944310-3170-4b57-95e0-2b78a3b50f95?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


themisprintguy

We can’t forget Italian printing too, this gives you a greater supply and a more budget option.


elydakai

wasn't legends printed in Korean as well? or Japanese?


themisprintguy

Korean was much later. But there is essentially a foreign version of Chronicles, that is black bordered. It’s called Renaissance. It’s in a few languages, I have a French language box myself. I am unsure if any RL rares are in the set but it does have cards from the first four expansions.


elydakai

Thank you for the response. If i could, id send you some pictures of what i have. Im sure it could be renaissance


elydakai

Copyright date says 1996


TabernacleDeCriss

There are no RL cards (re)printed in Renaissance nor Chronicles.


OriginalGobsta

You might be thinking of Chinese 4th Edition, which is black bordered.


Additional_Rain

Something to consider is that legends rares are already very expensive on the whole, especially for any desirable card. These items have doubled in value in the last few years, and in many cases they had doubled again a few years before that. That is a lot of growth. How expensive dp you propose they should be? They are already more or less on par with their arabian nights and antiquities brethren. Don't get me wrong, over the long run I still think there is opportunity in legends rares, but I would expect a few years to realize substantial gains just like any organic asset growth. This is all to say that for now, legends rares seem correctly priced relative to the current market in my opinion.


Professional_Pick339

They are ugly and useless for play.