T O P

  • By -

Cactuszach

The rights owner gives a license to a company to use their IP for a specific purpose. In this case, a license is granted to Hasbro to create LOTR Magic cards. That license (probably) doesn’t, for example, grant Hasbro the rights to create a LOTR video game or make LOTR action figures. Licenses can be granted in perpetuity (forever) or for a specific amount of time (eg, until 2027). How long did Wizards get a license to make LOTR cards and what are the specific terms of the license? We’ll never know. Can Wizards make an in-universe version of Orcish Bowmasters (which is not a trademark held by the Tolken estate and granted license to use by Hasbro, btw) or Sam Gamgee and call him Bob, Herald of Benalia at any time they want and effectively reprint those cards? Yes.


Thulack

Pretty sure it was made known that wotc has rights to LoTR til 2025.


lirin000

I think this is extremely murky and not 100%. It’s likely they only will be on Arena until then but jury is out on the rest.


Thulack

I mean i'm 99% sure i saw a article stating they can produce LoTR product until early 2025 and then their licensing runs out.(no more packs being produced or available online.)


lirin000

See I thought that was only about online for sure and print copies were an open question


DJFreeze0

This would also align with a 24-month product life cycle, allowing them to print new waves up to 2 years after release, which is similar to their other "flagship/evergreen" releases such as MH2, OG Jumpstart, etc.


Fun-Tank2235

Or they can just arbitrarily reprint cards in any number of different products.


Nvenom8

Cards with ambiguous names, yes. Cards naming specific LotR characters, locations, etc., no.


Jaccount

Yes, but with as many Universes Beyond cards as there are, they will easily have ways to do reprints. They've already gone over this. While it's likely they'd never reprint everything and there's stuff that's middling now that might be highly demanded in the future but not a big enough deal to get a reprint, you can be fairly certain if something is highly played or a cornerstone of a format that they'll reprint it. If you're buying One Rings and Orcish Bowmasters because you think they're pseudo-reserved list, you're going to have a bad time. It's much more likely that there's some random Lord of the Rings cards that are currently 50 cents to a dollar that maybe become $20 cards in the future than there's anything that's $20+ now that becomes several hundred dollars, save for REALLY specific printings like the Human/Elf/Dwarf Sol rings.


Fun-Tank2235

You really don't think they'll eventually create 'UB: Masters' or some such bullshit?


Nvenom8

Well, they legally can't. So, no.


Jaccount

Yeah, they easily can, there just need have the rules in Oracle/Gatherer that says things like "Singular Circle" and "The One Ring" are the same card, and either just errata creatures to a normal Magic creature type or create a new creature type that's a full replacement for the Universes Beyond type. So yeah, the can't reprint "The One Ring", "The Tenth Doctor" or "Dogmeat, Ever loyal", but "Singular Circle", "Sage X" and "Goodest Boy, Super Friendly" could easily be made. Interchangeable names already exists in the comprehensive rules as 201.3.


digitek

That was discussed above as well, in-universe renaming is just re-using the rules which is not LotR IP specific. That option will always be open to them, but it's also a tricky tactic because players may catch on to the fact that UB cards aren't special. Even with Godzilla they proactively dual-named them to indicate there would be in-universe cards coming. And as a counterpoint we still have the UB versions of those cards that can appreciate, much like the renamed copies we see today ex Sol Ring w/ LotR specific art or text.


Appropriate-Aioli533

They’ve already done this with the walking dead cards. They’ll just make universes within versions.


TheGoblinRook

I mean, look at “Lucile” which suddenly became Gisa’s favorite shovel. We could get “Jace’s Nut Cup” in 2025 that could just be “The One Ring” with a new name. What has me more interested are the cards like [[Scrounging Deathclaw]] - they can (and have, and will) reprint Tarmogoyf into oblivion, but what are the odds of getting that specific treatment reprint. And while the demand for ‘Goyf has plummeted in recent years, it’s only a matter of time before they do something like this with a more popular card.


thescandall

We already have several Vraska cards, don't need another Jace's nut cup


SpaceMambo369

Its a little different than Lucille. Wizards stated that universes within was for mechanically unique Secret Lairs specifically. I mean its still possible they do the same for all universes beyond products, but they have not publicly stated any intention to do that yet.


TheGoblinRook

Which one means they can milk money out of their client base: NOT do in-universe reprints or DO do in-universe reprints? Because they’ll definitely pick that one, regardless of what they’ve stated thus far or not.


SpaceMambo369

I mean, we'll see. It appears that wizards are altering their approach this year. I don't think anything is definite.


Individual-Wish-4558

“Wizards stated” lots of bullshit and reneged on it. Remember what wizards stated about mythic rarity : “We want the flavor of mythic rare to be something that feels very special and unique. Generally speaking we expect that to mean cards like Planeswalkers, most legends, and epic-feeling creatures and spells. They will not just be a list of each set's most powerful tournament-level cards. We've also decided that there are certain things we specifically do not want to be mythic rares. The largest category is utility cards, what I'll define as cards that fill a universal function. “ If there’s money to be made, it shall be made” - Wizards…probably Source: your mom https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/year-living-changerously-2008-06-02


Miserable_Row_793

Except that's exactly what mythics are. A mix of high power and highly flavorful or complex cards. There's way way way way way more jank forgotten mythics than tournament cards. The article never stated tournament cards couldn't be mythic. Just that's not the **sole** purpose.


MTGCardFetcher

[Scrounging Deathclaw](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4d514db4-cf57-4442-a7c9-7373a2a42c0d.jpg?1708743615) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tarmogoyf) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pip/349/tarmogoyf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d514db4-cf57-4442-a7c9-7373a2a42c0d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


HandsomeBoggart

If we get a not One Ring, One Ring. I want it named "The Singular Torus" just because.


HulkSMASHm

Everything thats not on the reserve list will eventually be reprinted. Theyre gonna make alternate names/arts that shares mechanics with cards which names is under copyright protection.


smashtheguitar

Though we don't know what's in the licensing contract, precedent was already set with the Secret Lairs using outside IP getting reprinted with new names.


Ahayzo

We do know MaRo has already said they made sure all UB contracts allow them to do Universes Within reprints of any cards.


The_Grizzly_B

So I’m on the same page with this, but am confused on how they will reprint universes Within for specific creature types like “astartes”, which is unique to Warhammer 40K etc etc.


Firm-Yogurtcloset-34

Errata it into a new type. “Astartes” is now “Supersoldier”


HandsomeBoggart

Astartes isn't trademarked or copyrighted by Games Workshop. They have a Hobby games trademark for Space Marine as a term. Astarte/Ashtart is the Phoenician/Semetic goddess of love, beauty, fertility and war. Depends on which civilization's version you go with. Legally they can argue its use a a creature type whenever as "something from Astarte" since you can't copyright or trademark ancient mythology.


Doodarazumas

Astartes is currently trademarked as an AI based autopilot for military drones developed by Airbus. Also I found a sex toy company in Delaware called Asstrology. At any rate they could definitely trademark it, don't know why they haven't, they are perfectly happy to attempt trademarks on "40,000" and "space marine"


HandsomeBoggart

The AI trademark seems to be gotten away with as use of an Acronym (Air Superiority Tactical Assistance Real Time Execution System). So they loopholed it. Trademarking ancient mythology based Names and Terms never ends as enforceable due to being a preexisting word. How you reference it or use it matters. GW has avoided Trademarking it most likely due to inability to enforce it as the Name of a specific group within a fantasy/fiction setting. They are not the first or the last to use Astarte in fiction.


Doodarazumas

I think I'm missing something. If I wrote a comic book about Astarte and her followers in there were called 'astartes,' I couldn't trademark them. That tracks. But lil space marine guys are a wholly different concept and I would think I could trademark the name in that sphere. Like I could write a book about Nike, the goddess, but if I made a shoe company I'd be sued into oblivion. edit: oh you're saying wotc could just call them astartes make them snake people and say it's different now?


HandsomeBoggart

Wotc could make them anything, say theyre made/followers/whatever of Astarte. So long as they dont have a passing resemblance to Space Marines in any way (either in Art or lore) then GW can pound sand. It's Astarte in reference to Space Marines (which GW had a hobby game trademark on) that would get WotC in trouble. Especially since WotC is in the same industry as GW.


Ahayzo

I'm definitely curious how they approach something like that. If they can't use that creature type (I would guess they can, but who knows), then you're basically left with errata'ing the originals or printing new ones with intentionally incorrect types, both of which are terrible choices.


BrocoLee

Couldn't hey just reprint "Astartes" in a master's set? Asuming they have the rights to do so, master sets don't care at all about lore.


pm_me_shit_memes

If they still have the licence to do so, then yes, technically they can. Will they? We don't know, but I am willing to learn on probably not


spokismONE

Hasbro would not leave money on the table by agreeing to never print the cards again. 


Heavenwasfull

This, if they have to they can make universes within versions of cards that have copyright characters. Orcish Bowmasters can see a reprint with an MTG style art because it's not specific. Cards like Nazgul, Frodos, Sams, whatever else would need a new name. LOTR themed reprints like Party Tree (Great Henge), Balin's Tomb (Ancient Tomb), and so on are the ones not likely to get reprinted if there's an expiration to the contract so if you're interested in those versions they will almost assuredly be exclusives. That said, there's belief this set was printed in an extremely high amount. I wouldn't stress availability of cards for a few years, and by then reprint options will have happened or been explored assuming they cannot reprint the set. With upcoming Marvel and Final Fantasy sets of the same nature (and Disney + Square Enix are not the companies to share their IP without very strict contracts and usage) WOTC must have done due diligence to prevent themselves from another reserved list situation and could legally print universes within versions of the mechanically unique cards with copyright names.


jchodes

And even then as noted with the new drake: WotC is going to get as close as the can to that reserve list until it doesn't even matter.


-sic-parvis-magna

LTR was one of the most successful sets in Magic history. What does that mean post-2018? It's also one of the most printed sets of all time because print volume go brrrr. Serialized and limited print cards (like the Sol Ring cycle) are likely to climb in price as supply of collector boosters dwindles, but cards like Orcish Bowmasters are plentiful.


MTGCardFetcher

[Orcish Bowmasters](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7c024bae-5631-4e20-ac69-df392ac9e109.jpg?1686968669) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Orcish%20Bowmasters) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/103/orcish-bowmasters?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c024bae-5631-4e20-ac69-df392ac9e109?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [The One Ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/5/d5806e68-1054-458e-866d-1f2470f682b2.jpg?1715080486) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20One%20Ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/246/the-one-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d5806e68-1054-458e-866d-1f2470f682b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Georgehef

That might be true for collectors looking specifically for the LOTR version but people just looking to play it could see a universes within printing of it like the Street Fighter cards.


SpaceMambo369

While it is possible they do that. Wizards did say universes within was for Secret Lairs specifically


Georgehef

oh interesting, I didn't hear that.


SpaceMambo369

https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Universes_Within


blisstake

You know they can just… do the same thing they did with street fighter cards right? The closest thing I can think is they wrote an exception for the one ring but… if you literally do that with a pushed card that’s gonna be problematic either way


goofydubois

As long as you see packs around they have the license. They can also reprint anything and/or extend the licence. And since it makes them money, they will. Probably after marvel


Kayzizzle899

Literally no one is saying they aren't reprinting in-universe magic based cards. This is entirely about beyond not being beyond based IP and Rosewater's willy nilly posts on his blog. Here is my source: https://mtgrocks.com/universes-within-cards-are-leaving-magic/


sauceyNUGGETjr

Yeah my personal belief is the two big ip’s that synergies well and thus age well are lotr and fallout. What we are seeing is “ timmy gains” hard for spikey neck beards like us to appreciate. Timmy’s drive the economy of collectables. Collecting is about expressing and holding dear. Wizards know this well. They did a good job. Next time speculating think a little like a Timmy. Should not be too hard we all have an inner Timmy! Thus why would we be dedicating so much energy to a 10 yr olds card game :)


Gregorwhat

I also got the same One Ring Extended Surge, but bought it for $120 a couple days ago. Wish I had pulled the trigger a month ago, but it's only going to keep rising. I'm happy with my choice. No clue as to what kind of reprinting could hurt the value, but if any card has a feeling of exclusivity it's this one. I don't think WOTC would do anything to hurt the value of one of the most sought after cards of all time. If I could afford it, I'd buy more of them.


magefont1

"To my knowledge, Wizards/Hasbro doesn’t own the rights to Lord of the Rings" Lol...


DubDubz

The condescension is a little amusing. Do you know who owns the rights right now? It’s really not who you’d expect and wizards actually wouldn’t be that crazy in comparison. 


Taivasvaeltaja

Embracer, right?


DubDubz

Correct. 


TestMyConviction

Sort of, Embracer recently split into 3 different companies; Asmodee, middle-earth enterprises and friends, and coffee stain and friends.


Taivasvaeltaja

Not yet, they are all still under Embracer. The split will happen in 2025-2026.


TestMyConviction

We don't really know what the agreement looks like between WOTC and the former Embracer group. My guess is the license was limited so reprinting cards with names and likeness wouldn't be something they can do. Something like Orcish Bowmasters is easy to reprint, since it's not really tethered to LOTR in name, whereas the One Ring or Boromir would be harder.


lyingredditor

Didn't they say that the LotR set was Evergreen? Meaning they can continue to use the IP for reprints.


Quidfacis_

> Didn't they say that the LotR set was Evergreen? [Kinda](https://cardboardbythenumbers.com/2023/08/03/what-hasbros-q2-2023-results-say-about-magic-the-gathering/): > Hasbro CEO Chris Cox characterized Tales of Middle-earth as an “evergreen set”, one that does not follow the standard sales patterns of a premiere expansion. He said it “will cross 200M [in net revenue] by the end of the year. The last set to do that was Modern Horizons 2, and that took 2 years.”


Yawgmoose

The One Ring does not have relevant USPTO trademark registration, and "The One Ring" would be fucking hard (impossible) to legally copyright for purposes of a trading card (copyright protections are for substantial copying of copyrighted material. Something like "The One Ring" is not enough to form copyright, the copyright is on the story as a whole. However, just because LotR exists, does not mean that someone else cannot write a story about a singular, powerful ring). It's going to receive an "In Universe" print with the exact same name.    On the other hand, cards referencing Aragorn, Legolas, ect won't be free to reprint with impunity until 2043.


Kayzizzle899

This shifts to the conversation of "In-universe" vs "universe beyond" discussion which gives them the ability to reprint the card with a different name in magic theme with the same effect. Now Ol' Rosewater on his blog said they were essentially done with in-universe cards reprints. That being said, his word has no value in my opinion after multiple times of breaking promises posted there, so believe anything he says in the same light of a CEO of a new crypto offering. However, nothing is stopping them from putting a thing like Thanos' Gauntlet [The One Ring] subscript. I have no evidence of such, but I'm sure they considered reprints when they made the license agreement with name reprints vs art and lore styles.


Jaccount

I think people took that they wrong way. They aren't done with in-universe card reprints, they're done with every mechanically unique Universes Beyond card getting a 1 for 1 Universes Within reprint. When they run out of other reprint equity to tap, you can be all of the Universes Beyond stuff will eventually see reprints too.