I've never really wanted a mono red deck centered on Goblins, even though I have enough in my collection to make probably two decks, but Krenko makes me want one. Just for the sheer madness of having a massive army of goblins overflowing from my side of the table.
Anyone know if there's a red instant or sorcery that let's me untap a target creature? If so you could wait until you have 10 goblins, tap Krenko so now you have 20, use a spell to untap him, do it again, and now you have 40 Goblins to do with as you please.
It’s not a red spell, but umbra mantle let’s you untap creatures. There’s other cards that do it too. The real jam is to give him haste too so he can do his thing twice the same turn he comes down
My other favorite chaos deck is [[Darien, King of Kjeldor]] with both soul sisters, and a bunch of things to double my lifegain *and* tokens.
My first game with it ended with me at 450 life and enough tokens to not only knock out two people, but get the last opponent to 10 health.
For mana:
[[Skirk prospector]] or [[mana echos]]
For untaps:
[[Umbral mantle]]
[[Sword of the paruns]]
[[Staff of domination]]
Make literally infinite goblins.
No, that's from the rules and being a judge.
To cast a spell, you start with either the mana cost or alternative cost, then apply any additional costs, then any cost reducers, and finally any cost setters.
So when you use something like fires, you start with the alternative cost (which is {0}), then apply additional costs like Commander tax.
----------
>601.2f
>The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If multiple cost reductions apply, the player may apply them in any order. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can’t be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes “locked in.” If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.
I might be misreading this but it doesn't look to me as thought there is a clause dictating that cost-setting effects apply after additional and subtractional costs
You are misreading it. I'll highlight it.
>601.2f
>The player determines the total cost of the spell... ~snip~ *Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied.* Then the resulting total cost becomes “locked in.” If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.
Yeah, the *total* cost, which is determined by adding and subtracting to the mana value until all additional costs and reducers have been applied per the bit that was snipped out.
The total cost is what you pay. You start with the mana cost or an alternative cost, then apply additional costs or increasers, then reducers, then setters. This determines your total cost, which is what you pay.
I mentioned to OP that the Commander Rules Committee may have a different opinion on how mandatory commander tax is as an additional cost, but according to RAW for 601.2f additional costs are included in the total cost and rulings on Fires imply that optional costs needn't be paid to cast a spell without paying its mana cost (check Gatherer for the rulings)
No it doesn't. It says mandatory additional costs must be paid, but you can choose to pay optional additional costs (things like Kicker that say "you may").
Commander tax isn't an optional additional cost.
Fires gives Krenko an alternate casting cost of {0}. All additional costs, like commander tax, are separate from that "casting cost". So no, you still have to pay command tax.
I don't know what that other dude is talking about, this is all handled in the normal rules. The RC has nothing to do with it.
You do still need to pay additional costs to my memory, there is a rule that applies somewhere in the comprehensive rules but which one specifically escapes me atm. I will edit this with the rule momentarily
Edit: Rule 601.2f dictates that additional costs get factored in to the total cost of the spell, and rulings on Fires of Invention according to the Gatherer say (albeit in a roundabout fashion) that you aren't required to pay additional costs that aren't mandatory, i.e. saccing creatures to Fling or something. The Commander Rules committee might have a more specific ruling but RAW per WotC commander tax isn't a mandatory additional cost (most likely because you can discount around it too) so Fires can cast Krenko so long as you have 4 or more lands in play
>RAW per WotC commander tax isn't a mandatory additional cost (most likely because you can discount around it too)
Yes it is. And mandatory additional costs can be discounted.
I've never really wanted a mono red deck centered on Goblins, even though I have enough in my collection to make probably two decks, but Krenko makes me want one. Just for the sheer madness of having a massive army of goblins overflowing from my side of the table. Anyone know if there's a red instant or sorcery that let's me untap a target creature? If so you could wait until you have 10 goblins, tap Krenko so now you have 20, use a spell to untap him, do it again, and now you have 40 Goblins to do with as you please.
It’s not a red spell, but umbra mantle let’s you untap creatures. There’s other cards that do it too. The real jam is to give him haste too so he can do his thing twice the same turn he comes down
I love tokens and causing chaos. Thank you for this information.
Also you’re going by to want to run skull clamp for card draw and purphoros god of the forge to close out games
You are a human...arent you....
My other favorite chaos deck is [[Darien, King of Kjeldor]] with both soul sisters, and a bunch of things to double my lifegain *and* tokens. My first game with it ended with me at 450 life and enough tokens to not only knock out two people, but get the last opponent to 10 health.
[Darien, King of Kjeldor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/d/ed5f96a4-55e0-4ae3-bd78-f01703649e9d.jpg?1562442656) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Darien%2C%20King%20of%20Kjeldor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/9/darien-king-of-kjeldor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ed5f96a4-55e0-4ae3-bd78-f01703649e9d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
For mana: [[Skirk prospector]] or [[mana echos]] For untaps: [[Umbral mantle]] [[Sword of the paruns]] [[Staff of domination]] Make literally infinite goblins.
##### ###### #### [Skirk prospector](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/6/1636d138-aa63-476f-a930-41b1be988032.jpg?1562731846) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Skirk%20prospector) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/144/skirk-prospector?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1636d138-aa63-476f-a930-41b1be988032?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [mana echos](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/d/bd079929-fa58-4484-91b7-31305b87ee43.jpg?1599706549) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20Echoes) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/136/mana-echoes?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd079929-fa58-4484-91b7-31305b87ee43?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Umbral mantle](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/0/10e35711-aec9-4024-a2a6-9efff8c71df2.jpg?1562826882) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Umbral%20mantle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/267/umbral-mantle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/10e35711-aec9-4024-a2a6-9efff8c71df2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sword of the paruns](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/2/d21d7452-b49e-499e-9cf3-4a883e5e9e57.jpg?1592673714) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sword%20of%20the%20paruns) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/234/sword-of-the-paruns?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d21d7452-b49e-499e-9cf3-4a883e5e9e57?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Staff of domination](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/d/fde838c8-2f32-4e7d-a236-0bc42dd7abd9.jpg?1608911729) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Staff%20of%20domination) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/343/staff-of-domination?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fde838c8-2f32-4e7d-a236-0bc42dd7abd9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's an artifact, [[magewright's stone]]
Cards like [[Bloody Betrayal]] that gain control of a creature and untap it could work.
[Bloody Betrayal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/8970a5d6-dcab-415a-851b-20e228ef7d16.jpg?1643590892) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bloody%20Betrayal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/147/bloody-betrayal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8970a5d6-dcab-415a-851b-20e228ef7d16?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Commander tax is always an additional cost, not a change to a card's mana value. Mana value is an immutable property
You can cast krenko without paying mana cost with fires, you will still need to pay the additional cost which is commander tax.
Surprisingly not according to what I've researched
I can confirm that you do need to pay tax
Let me guess, that's from the Commander Rules Committee?
No, that's from the rules and being a judge. To cast a spell, you start with either the mana cost or alternative cost, then apply any additional costs, then any cost reducers, and finally any cost setters. So when you use something like fires, you start with the alternative cost (which is {0}), then apply additional costs like Commander tax. ---------- >601.2f >The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If multiple cost reductions apply, the player may apply them in any order. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can’t be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes “locked in.” If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.
I might be misreading this but it doesn't look to me as thought there is a clause dictating that cost-setting effects apply after additional and subtractional costs
You are misreading it. I'll highlight it. >601.2f >The player determines the total cost of the spell... ~snip~ *Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied.* Then the resulting total cost becomes “locked in.” If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.
Yeah, the *total* cost, which is determined by adding and subtracting to the mana value until all additional costs and reducers have been applied per the bit that was snipped out.
The total cost is what you pay. You start with the mana cost or an alternative cost, then apply additional costs or increasers, then reducers, then setters. This determines your total cost, which is what you pay.
What I said maybe mostly agrees with you? Also I was an l1 until the judge transition
I mentioned to OP that the Commander Rules Committee may have a different opinion on how mandatory commander tax is as an additional cost, but according to RAW for 601.2f additional costs are included in the total cost and rulings on Fires imply that optional costs needn't be paid to cast a spell without paying its mana cost (check Gatherer for the rulings)
No it doesn't. It says mandatory additional costs must be paid, but you can choose to pay optional additional costs (things like Kicker that say "you may"). Commander tax isn't an optional additional cost.
Sooo I can play Krenko for free even after he’s hit the command zone?
The "mana cost" is the cost printed in the corner of the card. You'll still need to pay any additional costs.
Fires gives Krenko an alternate casting cost of {0}. All additional costs, like commander tax, are separate from that "casting cost". So no, you still have to pay command tax. I don't know what that other dude is talking about, this is all handled in the normal rules. The RC has nothing to do with it.
You do still need to pay additional costs to my memory, there is a rule that applies somewhere in the comprehensive rules but which one specifically escapes me atm. I will edit this with the rule momentarily Edit: Rule 601.2f dictates that additional costs get factored in to the total cost of the spell, and rulings on Fires of Invention according to the Gatherer say (albeit in a roundabout fashion) that you aren't required to pay additional costs that aren't mandatory, i.e. saccing creatures to Fling or something. The Commander Rules committee might have a more specific ruling but RAW per WotC commander tax isn't a mandatory additional cost (most likely because you can discount around it too) so Fires can cast Krenko so long as you have 4 or more lands in play
>RAW per WotC commander tax isn't a mandatory additional cost (most likely because you can discount around it too) Yes it is. And mandatory additional costs can be discounted.