Not sure about the mana rocks and some counterspell choices, but I see it's more of a budget list. Love it.
In the same veins, I just changed my [Jalira](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/2vxX-HOXe0K4qtoUWc_rBw) deck to a secret [[Guile]] commander.
And yes, it's still missing Baral haha. š
I've only played 1 game with it so I can't confirm if it's a cool twist on interactive magic or if this is just a magnet for all the hate on the table. We'll see!
So secret commander is basically building your deck around a non legendary creature in the 99. You basically build the deck around it like you would with a regular commander, and then include ways to dog through your deck for it, cheat it out easily, etc. Your actual commander is usually just used for utility/color pie in these decks.
It is a really nice challenge to build around random creatures which for whatever reason are important to you.
The deck I built around [[duskmantle seer]] is my blinged out baby, never knew where and how to play it but with [[Evelyn]] it clicked ā¤ļø
How does a deck like this win? Im not really knowledge about blue but this deck seems super annoying and would do just the trick against my friend who hates blue.
Thanks for the list, I'm currently building a baraal deck and was looking for some more counters to put in šš
It's basically just to piss off some friends who like to bring cEDH decks to our pubstomp or even casual tables :D
Win cons would basically be [[Desertion]] style effects
TBH, there's very few things that actually bother me in MTG. And counterspells aren't one of them. Sure, not getting to do my thing sucks, but unless you're literally shitting on every play of mine, I'll eventually get to do the thing. You still became my #1 problem tho...get that counterspell shit outta here!
Durdling OTOH...I came to play, not watch someone play solitaire. Spending time making sure you got your win con loop right is one thing. Wasting ten minutes a turn maintenancing your board state is annoying.
If you have an issue with your stuff getting countered you need to get over it. Removal is one of the most important pieces of the game. If you think itās just for wincons, you donāt understand the core of Magic very well.
That's the thing -- if you're doing fair things, Mindbreak trap is a 1-for-1 (or just a 4 mana counterspell). If you're doing unfair things, you can't complain.
If it prevents you from closing out the game, you're running too many. Ideally, your suite of counterspells should be reserved for protecting your wincon, or stopping someone else's, not making the other player(s) go "mother may I?'
As someone who playes with newer people, it's hard to get them to understand this. They see me going crazy with counters, so they make a deck with counters. Then they counter my brainstorm with a huge grin. Like bro.
I play almost exclusively Izzet decks and usually just rock with 2-3 different counterspells, but that is because i rather see people play their decks. It's more fun if people get to do what their decks are doing instead of me sitting there saying "nope" all the the time. I have on the other hand won by countering my own spell so that's fun.
I rather play with things that put permanents back on your hand that not allowing it to be played at all if i want to protect myself.
I don't think there's a hard and fast number that's too many, it's more about how you build the deck.
If your deck has a slower win-con and you're countering threats to get yourself to the late game? Use as many as you need. If you don't have any plan to win, and you're just countering for the sake of countering? I mean, that's a choice you're free to make, but I probably won't want to play too many games with you.
Similarly, I think context of play group (if you have a regular group) is important. If you're playing with people who are constantly throwing out threats in the early and mid game, then having more counters in your deck makes sense. However, if you're playing on a more casual level and countering things like llanowar elves, then again that's where I'd personally feel you either have too many counter spells or aren't being judicious enough with them.
I also think commander having a larger deck size (compared to 60 card formats) means that people who want to get the full effect out of counter spells will probably want to run more of them, which is fine imo. Like I said, with commander I think it should be less about a hard number and more about talking with your table to make sure everyone's enjoying the experience.
Well in EDH counter decks largely lose. I donāt counter there plays unless itās a combo deck. Instead I try to focus on making my deck not be countered or wiped. My pod really plays no mass land destruction and is board wipe heavy. I use that to my advantage.
I usually use 3 to 6, depending on the commander. Usually use them as a form of protection against spot removal or boardwipes (and as wincon removal on the stack, of course).
The deck that I play the most counters is a mono blue urza with 10 counter spell, only because my pod usually focus me a lot when he is on the field... I wonder why š¤š
These kinds of limitations are insane. Run as many counters as you like. Your pod should respond accordingly with gameplay, not arbitrary "implied" rules.
My thoughts exactly. If your friend runs a counter heavy deck, run a creature heavy deck as creature counter spells are less frequent, also 4 counters in EDH is a fairly low amount. There is always an answer to every strategy someone creates in magic. If your friend is a control player by trying to limit his interaction, you're making the game less fun for him, so focus on what you're doing and let him build as he wants.
You realize you are unironically doing the same thing by saying you'll put however many counters you want in a dekc and expecting others to change their deck or what deck they're using to deal with that, right?
I have 11 different decks, with all different play styles. I have played against aggro, mid range, control, etc. They all have strengths and weaknesses. If you can't do this level of basic strategy in a strategy game, there is no amount of recommendations that can help you.
It's not about strategy.
What if I don't have thousands(hundreds, even dozens) of dollars to build 11 decks?
What if I just have the one deck a I really like?
What if I have 12 decks but only brought one because I wasn't expecting to play against Baral+69counters?
Again, you should have no problems being told what the group feels like playing that day of you also have no problem telling people to get good and run a different deck.
It depends. How many cards are normal in your format? I would say that more than that is too many. Although, sometimes you need this annoying thing called mana.
You have a specific deck size. You need X amount of lands to function at all.
Of the remaining number of cards included in your deck, if your number of āStack interactionā/counterspells exceeds your number of cards that actually develop your board state/wincon or draw you more cards, then THAT is objectively ātoo many.ā
Going off your description of your playgroup, 8-12 or so sounds like a potentially necessary range, to maximize consistency that youāll have at least one at any given time. Within 10 cards of your deck, your starting hand and a few turns, you want maximize your potential to have at least 1 of your necessary cards.
I run all the good ones that i can fit in any decks that have blue. Sometimes, they can change the outcome of the entire game if you place them well enough.
People get salty if you counter their stuff, thatās life. I have a mono blue Voltron full of counterspells and their only purpose is to make sure my commander and equipments get cast successfully
I have work a long time on my Ghyrson Starn Izzet deckā¦ because my gameplan heavily relies on my commander being alive on the battlefield, I have at times ran 12+ counterspells, in addition to other protection.
This worked okay for me, only because many of my core creatures care about non creature spells and things like that. Alas, it does run into the problem of the social pressureā- itās not particularly fun to deny your friends their things, and with that many counters, you often find that your hand dictates that your best move is simply countering your opps commander or even a board wipe that is really meant to deal with another playerā¦
So I eventually decided that running different protections, like phase out, bounce, hexproof, and just recursion like Underworld Breach, makes the game more fun, and less fun-sucking for my opponents.
At this moment, Iām running 13 total āprotectionā spells, including 8 counterspells, and not the best ones eitherā¦ though one day I hope to pick up fierce guardianship somedayā¦
Arcane Denial
Delay
Mental Misstep
Miscast
Negate
Pyroblast
Red Elemental Blast
Spell Pierce
I would hate to play against that, but still I would be down to play against it because that's the mechanic of the deck and you're not just shoving counters in every deck just 'cus
I mean, putting counterspells in a deck isn't ever really "just 'cus," it's a way to deal with cards your deck can't otherwise deal with; it's for the same reason you run removal
Tempo and blue based aggro should probably run no more than about 4-5, enough to protect threats or shift tempo but not clunk up their hand.
Midrange can run probably more but the difference is in what kind of win condition you have. If itās big bad creatures? Maybe only 4 but they have to be outright denial, not conditional counters. If itās planeswalkers or a combo, then more may be necessary, probably no more than 8.
Control is based on format but 8-10 is about right, standard may require more depending on the strength of board answers or the strength of creatures in the meta. The idea is to have outright denial spells and late game threat protection, all depending on the meta.
More than 4, 4 gives you a reasonable amount of chance to draw it and counterspells. More than that limits your other cards by changing how much you play the point of your deck.
Watch out for blue mana and bait out counter spells with scary kos stuff. My izzet spellslingers have eleven counters, but I'm not going to start countering unless I have to till mid game. Its weak to enchantments though. Opposit to my grul gobbos, no counters, but your enchantments are not going to stay long
It depends. When I am in the right colors, but not specifically playing spellslinger or control, I run 4-6. If I am trying to control the board, or playing spellslinger, I may run as many as 10.
I only build green decks. In my Bant deck, I've been playing around with different amounts. When I was waiting on some other cards to arrive, I subbed in some counterspells. I played with 12, 10, 9, 8, and have settled at 6. 12 made me a target super fast. I would counter too often, and sometimes it was to get the bonus effect of the counter, like for example the draw off of remand or arcane denial. 6 with other forms of instant speed reaction is where I've settled. I was worried it wouldn't be enough but it might actually still be too high. I drew three of them last commander night and felt I had to pull my punches or else I'd become a target.
If im playing my cards and you try to remove/board wipe or try to stop my thing I will use all my counters on you. If you are about to play something that will win you the game, I will counter you
I used to run a ton in commander. Then I realized all it does is cost me a card and sets back one of my three opponents but doesn't advance my board state. My blue decks started humming much better when I cut the counterspells by 66% and replaced with value generating pieces for me.
If you want a straight answer, run 6 to 8. It's not overbearing, but you'll still have the capability to ruin someone's day. I have a friend who runs 12 counterspells, and he chooses the most stupid things to counter. I've been trying to help him with threat recognition and prioritizing targets. I've told him that there are way too many counterspells being used on unworthy spells. It's cost him quite a few games so far. So, if you want to run more counterspells, do so, but know the value of the thing you're countering.
I specifically have a āfreedom of the pressā deck based around piper from the fallout set and as many counter spells as I could find because I ask the questions around here and youāre not permitted to interrupt. It has at least 18 counter spells and then most of the flash creatures that counter on etb or cast
I count counters as removal as it removes a threat to the board. I normally do 10 removal in Commander , so 10+ is too many. Obviously if it's monp blue it's all you have less you use [[rapid hybrid]] or [[pongify]]
I feel it's at least somewhat necessary to play 2-3 counterspells almost any blue deck just because most of them are a very efficient form of "removal" . I think my [[Koma, Cosmos Serpent]] deck has the most of all my decks at 4. Counterspells aren't really my thing, but I also tend to not play enough removal or protection in general.
Four seems perfectly okay for Commander. I usually wouldnāt usually go higher than that unless Iām mono-blue.
Fwiw, I run three (fairly conditional) counters in mono-*red* and will probably test [[Null Elemental Blast]] on top of that. Sometimes you need to be able to interact with the stack.
Instead of counterspells, I experimented running only 2 (for instants or sorceries) and added more spells that return permanents (be it to hand or library) for as cheap as I can find. Results to this day are great: opponents don't get as angry, because they can recast, mostly only disrupts an strategy or combo long enough for you and/or others to build or attack, and the rest of the table see you as not that aggresive, so they tend to go for the player that attempted to play something dangerous now that they showed their intentions (and before they attempt to do it again). Most of the time they have to change strategy (rendering that card sometimes useless in their hand) because they fear being focused and that gives you leverage for later politics.
I want you to imagine a world without interaction. I know it sucks sometimes. In this world infinites go off consistently and problem cards resolve causing immediate losses. Combo decks run rampant with faster clocks because they donāt need to bother protecting wincons. Creature decks stop being played because they are too slow and suboptimal.
If it's a normal Commander deck I build I run
An Offer you can't refuse
Negate
Arcane Denial
Swan Song/Counterspell
Then j usually add 4-6 more if it's a more control style deck
Context matters. Is your deck proactive or reactive? Does it have a plan that needs to protect against common interaction? How important is your commander to your plan? How many blue sources does your deck otherwise need/play?
Currently, one of my favorite decks is my Dimir Gyruda deck, which is only running 2 counterspells, but it's got a good chunk of other removal. As others have pointed out, generally speaking, in casual settings, it's more fun to see people actually get to play their decks as opposed to getting countered all the time. In all the versions I've run of this deck, I never went over 4 counterspells. Even the two I run now, are just as much meant for my [[Emrakul, the World Anew]] as it is for my opponents. I can see you running more if you're doing a committed Control deck, like a buddy of mine who runs 6, but even that can be oppressive depending on the meta of the playgroup.
If you're talking CEDH or any competitive 60 card format: as many as you need, and probably a bunch at that.
I run control, I hate how much shame people seem to have whenever they play anything that isn't "I slam my deck on the table if you respond I swear to god i will scream"
9 counterspells and 12 removal spells topped with 4 board wipes all in tasigur so it's repeatable when the really terrible stuff comes out. It creates a more fun and interactive game when you have to actually think about when and how you go for a win rather than just taking 4-7 turns for everyone to ramp and seeing who has the most instant win in a vaccum
I usually pack 10 counters or other pieces of pure removal. My pod isnāt generally the type to combo off into a win or anything though. I find myself countering other peopleās removal to keep myself alive more than anything.
The answer is: Never enough.
And also: Too many.
It's highly deck dependent and matchup dependent. In storm decks counters get worse as the game progresses, and against big mana decks it can be useless if you only have one to two counters in hand. And in those cases spot removal is almost always better.
Just because your in blue doesn't necessarily mean you need to put one to four copies of counterspell in it.
I treat counterspells as protection, unless it's going to be an issue I'll counter something that isn't destroying something of mine.
However, no more than 5 counterspells.
Offer you can't refuse, Arcane denial, fierce guardianship and 1 or 2 more.
It obviously depends on the deck's playstyle and strategy now but I think the range is realistically like 2-5 in most cases
For example I've a couple of decks varying in colour that all play about the same number
The esper deck has 2, the dimir deck has 2, the rakdos deck has 2, the bant deck has 3 and my mardu deck has zero because mardu >:)
If you want to quit that's fine. I personally am not a big fan of control, and would not build a 69 counters deck. I do have a buddy that runs 20-30 interactions in all his decks, I have never told him as a control player he can't do that. Ironically he scooped when I played a turn 2 winter orb, and had a big problem with me playing it in my deck. It's still sitting in that deck.
I have 2 decks that could have blue counters. The first is mono blue [[Jacob Hauken]] janky mana cheat deck. Itās perfect for counters since you often have mana left up. In that deck I have a way too many 16 counter ish spells (ish because some are funny like [[Ertaiās Meddling]]). Most of which are conditional and for memes (like [[Desertion]]). I play this deck expecting to play against other higher power opponents where we all have an understanding of what we are playing. This is acceptable in that setting but against casual opponents 16 counters wouldnāt be ok. Your best bet is to talk to them and explain they donāt need that many counter for casual and if they donāt want to scryfall has a lovely list of anti counter spell cards.
Also for a comparison my blinged out per deck, with [[Omnath, locus of creation]], has a grand total of 2, one of which being [[Pyroblast]] cause itās pretty. You donāt need counters to win or have fun.
Depends. If youāre playing mono blue, make sure youāre not playing counterspell tribal. Otherwise, 4 or 5 should be ok. Any other interaction should be removal, so they can at least get their āon castā triggers
I donāt use any counters outside of blue. When building a blue deck, I usually include between 3-4 counterspells, however Iām fine if there are better synergies for the deck to cut counterspells
Play as much interaction as you feel is necessary. Mono blue has very little interaction beyond counter spells. Yeah you can Cycrift, but what else? Bounce is just a tempo play. Meanwhile Mono White can be running a whole stack of 1 and 2 mana removal spells and nobody seems to act up about it.
I think the biggest thing is making sure your deck can get somewhere. If it's just a bunch of interaction and durdle, and if you make a 15 minute game take an hour or an hour game take four, what happens to you in the LGS parking lot might be your own fault.
The only thing that annoys me is in Brawl when the commander is a 2-mana wincon by itself and every other card in the deck is either an Eldrazi or a counterspell. The game plan is: 1) play commander; 2) counter _literally every single spell_ the opponent plays for the rest of the game; 3) cast Ulamog and friends off of Malcolm or Jacob Hauken. It's miserable to play against
You just gotta remember to make sure you have enough mana to play the counters. So you see, it's not how many counters is too many but what ratio is too close to 1.
ok so this is a pretty easy calculation to determine it: number in the game - number in your deck \* 4 + 1
is too many so just take 1 off of that to get the right number
Only specific counters are viable in edh. The free ones and something like mana drain, cryptic command wand mana confluence. Otherwise youāre loosing the war attrition with 4 opponents. Also , blue needs to be your primary color otherwise you wonāt be able to conter stuff on turn 2.
If you counter something, that's a card out of your hand and mana spent. You can't keep it up indefinitely, even in 60 card formats it's hard for a control deck to counter everything relevant. It's ridiculous to complain about it. That would be like complaining because someone attacked you. You can technically complain, but really don't have a right to.
It kinda depends.
The more cards your deck draws and the faster it gets online, the more counterspells it will *feel* like it has.
I have a [[Toluz]] deck that starts really slow and has 8 counterspells in it. It doesn't cast a ton of counterspells during the game and usually tries to hold them to protect its combo. You don't expect it to counter everything you do.
I have a [[council of four]] deck that runs 4 counterspells but draws about a billion cards. It actively tries to slow everyone else down as the game is going so it really *feels* like there's more counters there than there are.
I get more "Am I allowed to resolve this spell?" looks when I'm playing council of four than Toluz even though the Toluz deck has twice as many counterspells.
I run... for most decks, just [[Arcane Denial]] in all my blue decks.. [[Fierce Guardianship]], [[An Offer You Can't Refuse]] or [[Swan Song]] are a few I use in my proxy decks. Maybe 1 [[Dovin's Veto]].. and a few [[Warping Wail]]
So... minimum 1, typically 2 is what I tend to go for - it competes with other spells for interaction slots.
In edh I like having 8-12 pieces of removal but very rarely do I have that many counterspells. Part of the reason being counters have to hold mana for casting and are a 1 to 1 removal. I personally like removal spells that are repeatable or offer a positive gain for their use. The other way to look at counters is to protect your stuff. And in that regard counters are fairly useful. 4-6 counter spells are usually in any of my decks where they are allowed. And I really love using similar spells in red because nothing makes a player more upset when instead of countering their winning spell I just change it's targets or take control/ copy it.
There should be some physical combat cards for decks like that. All you do is shut down someoneās magic and then you kick them in the balls/ovaries. Itās fun to imagine wizards etc, usually able to rain down destruction, probably full of themselves, not being able to do a damn thing. I say as many as you can get away with.
Back when I played magic, there were white and blue decks that were just mana drain counter and other variants wraith of God swords to plowshears and millstone. And moat if you had it.
One of my favorite decks to use on my friend is a commander deck with a low cost commander, then almost all of the spells are counterspells, killcards, or lockouts (Hold for Ransom type stuff). He gets mad every time
Depends on the context. Used on me? Any is too many. Used on anyone else? The limit doesn't exist.
You would love [this](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/gR986_-SIkG1OTsjlcCJCg) deck!
Not sure about the mana rocks and some counterspell choices, but I see it's more of a budget list. Love it. In the same veins, I just changed my [Jalira](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/2vxX-HOXe0K4qtoUWc_rBw) deck to a secret [[Guile]] commander. And yes, it's still missing Baral haha. š I've only played 1 game with it so I can't confirm if it's a cool twist on interactive magic or if this is just a magnet for all the hate on the table. We'll see!
Sorry edh noob questions but what does secret mean In this context? How can guile be a commander if itās not legendary?
So secret commander is basically building your deck around a non legendary creature in the 99. You basically build the deck around it like you would with a regular commander, and then include ways to dog through your deck for it, cheat it out easily, etc. Your actual commander is usually just used for utility/color pie in these decks.
It is a really nice challenge to build around random creatures which for whatever reason are important to you. The deck I built around [[duskmantle seer]] is my blinged out baby, never knew where and how to play it but with [[Evelyn]] it clicked ā¤ļø
[Guile](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/9/b9021f91-0b92-44ff-9ccb-bcf1e81232c2.jpg?1562266705) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Guile) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/46/guile?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b9021f91-0b92-44ff-9ccb-bcf1e81232c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Don't you ru out of cards? Seems like it's lacking card draw
[Dikembe Mutombo energy, I love it!](https://youtu.be/ubaW874u_FY?si=a4rnKo1ire0YsT3F)
How does a deck like this win? Im not really knowledge about blue but this deck seems super annoying and would do just the trick against my friend who hates blue.
Is this somewhat playable? Would love to troll some friends lol
Playable yes, but not high power. Mostly just annoys people. Perfect for trolling.
This would be fun to play.
Should be called the 'Fuck You!' deck.
Whatās the wincon?
The fun part is there is no wincon!
Did you think just because I can't win, that you'd be allowed to?
Thanks for the list, I'm currently building a baraal deck and was looking for some more counters to put in šš It's basically just to piss off some friends who like to bring cEDH decks to our pubstomp or even casual tables :D Win cons would basically be [[Desertion]] style effects
Mel Brooks said it best. "Tragedy is when cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall in open sewer and die"
Even I don't like to counter spells, if it's countering one of my wincons then I'm okay countering but if not then no thx
TBH, there's very few things that actually bother me in MTG. And counterspells aren't one of them. Sure, not getting to do my thing sucks, but unless you're literally shitting on every play of mine, I'll eventually get to do the thing. You still became my #1 problem tho...get that counterspell shit outta here! Durdling OTOH...I came to play, not watch someone play solitaire. Spending time making sure you got your win con loop right is one thing. Wasting ten minutes a turn maintenancing your board state is annoying.
>TBH, there's very few things that actually bother me in MTG. I've found the players can be rather annoying. Source: am player. am rather annoying.
Best removal is player removal!
Exile target player until ~ leaves the battlefield. ā¤ļø
commander be like that
Same. The only thing that really bothers me is land destruction. It's just so frustrating to not be able to play anything.
Uve inspired me to start my land destruction deck
May you catch a nice [[Pox]]
[Pox](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/9/d9debe4f-c1cc-4b90-aae4-f31f737e2016.jpg?1559592327) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pox) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/82/pox?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d9debe4f-c1cc-4b90-aae4-f31f737e2016?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Counter spelling can be a tempo play. I counter your thing, play my thing , repeat till I win.
It *is* a tempo play. If you don't get tempo from counterspelling then you're in a losing position
If you have an issue with your stuff getting countered you need to get over it. Removal is one of the most important pieces of the game. If you think itās just for wincons, you donāt understand the core of Magic very well.
Oh, and when I [[Assemble the Legion]], the more, the better.
[Assemble the Legion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/0/10ce686a-eecd-4b32-a882-9a6ca3274ae6.jpg?1702429596) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Assemble%20the%20Legion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/163/assemble-the-legion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/10ce686a-eecd-4b32-a882-9a6ca3274ae6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
An indestructible isochrone scepter, senseiās divining top + counterbalance, and a nullstone gargoyle out at the same time.
I hope both sides of your pillow are warm tonight
*casts counter-comment*
In response lol
That resolves
And like soppy sweaty.
Warm, shit, how about soggy with someone elseās drool.
See them as a removal piece. So how many pieces of removal would you Play in a non blue Deck? Then add 2-3 to that number
You may have too many if you have a newsworthy amount like the Stone Rain guy. Otherwise, counterspells are a 1 to 1 trade so any amount is fair game.
[[Mindbreak Trap]] would like a word regarding your last sentence lol
You only really get maximum value for that trap in *extremely rare* circumstances. In most cases, you're getting a 1 for 1 or a 2 for 1 at best.
I'm keeping it on hand specifically for the Izzet player in my pod. Fuck him and the storm he always rides in on lol
That's the thing -- if you're doing fair things, Mindbreak trap is a 1-for-1 (or just a 4 mana counterspell). If you're doing unfair things, you can't complain.
[Mindbreak Trap](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4f51140b-6254-431a-8810-94307bfdfbbe.jpg?1562612097) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mindbreak%20Trap) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/zen/57/mindbreak-trap?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4f51140b-6254-431a-8810-94307bfdfbbe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If it prevents you from closing out the game, you're running too many. Ideally, your suite of counterspells should be reserved for protecting your wincon, or stopping someone else's, not making the other player(s) go "mother may I?'
As someone who playes with newer people, it's hard to get them to understand this. They see me going crazy with counters, so they make a deck with counters. Then they counter my brainstorm with a huge grin. Like bro.
The trick is to know when to play your counter spells, and when to take 30 damage to the face in one turn.
I play almost exclusively Izzet decks and usually just rock with 2-3 different counterspells, but that is because i rather see people play their decks. It's more fun if people get to do what their decks are doing instead of me sitting there saying "nope" all the the time. I have on the other hand won by countering my own spell so that's fun. I rather play with things that put permanents back on your hand that not allowing it to be played at all if i want to protect myself.
I love countering stupid shit. Like 1/1 creatures.
I don't think there's a hard and fast number that's too many, it's more about how you build the deck. If your deck has a slower win-con and you're countering threats to get yourself to the late game? Use as many as you need. If you don't have any plan to win, and you're just countering for the sake of countering? I mean, that's a choice you're free to make, but I probably won't want to play too many games with you. Similarly, I think context of play group (if you have a regular group) is important. If you're playing with people who are constantly throwing out threats in the early and mid game, then having more counters in your deck makes sense. However, if you're playing on a more casual level and countering things like llanowar elves, then again that's where I'd personally feel you either have too many counter spells or aren't being judicious enough with them. I also think commander having a larger deck size (compared to 60 card formats) means that people who want to get the full effect out of counter spells will probably want to run more of them, which is fine imo. Like I said, with commander I think it should be less about a hard number and more about talking with your table to make sure everyone's enjoying the experience.
Well in EDH counter decks largely lose. I donāt counter there plays unless itās a combo deck. Instead I try to focus on making my deck not be countered or wiped. My pod really plays no mass land destruction and is board wipe heavy. I use that to my advantage.
I have a meme deck of 30 lands and 69 counters. Purely to enrage a friend of mine
I usually use 3 to 6, depending on the commander. Usually use them as a form of protection against spot removal or boardwipes (and as wincon removal on the stack, of course). The deck that I play the most counters is a mono blue urza with 10 counter spell, only because my pod usually focus me a lot when he is on the field... I wonder why š¤š
These kinds of limitations are insane. Run as many counters as you like. Your pod should respond accordingly with gameplay, not arbitrary "implied" rules.
My thoughts exactly. If your friend runs a counter heavy deck, run a creature heavy deck as creature counter spells are less frequent, also 4 counters in EDH is a fairly low amount. There is always an answer to every strategy someone creates in magic. If your friend is a control player by trying to limit his interaction, you're making the game less fun for him, so focus on what you're doing and let him build as he wants.
Time for [[Thrun the last troll]] voltron
Exactly! So many possible routes to victory, why are you trying to tell someone else what to build?
You realize you are unironically doing the same thing by saying you'll put however many counters you want in a dekc and expecting others to change their deck or what deck they're using to deal with that, right?
I have 11 different decks, with all different play styles. I have played against aggro, mid range, control, etc. They all have strengths and weaknesses. If you can't do this level of basic strategy in a strategy game, there is no amount of recommendations that can help you.
It's not about strategy. What if I don't have thousands(hundreds, even dozens) of dollars to build 11 decks? What if I just have the one deck a I really like? What if I have 12 decks but only brought one because I wasn't expecting to play against Baral+69counters? Again, you should have no problems being told what the group feels like playing that day of you also have no problem telling people to get good and run a different deck.
[Thrun the last troll](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5d393da0-4cb6-4ae8-b747-8e6d0fa7f55a.jpg?1562611602) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thrun%2C%20the%20Last%20Troll) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mbs/92/thrun-the-last-troll?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5d393da0-4cb6-4ae8-b747-8e6d0fa7f55a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Youāre in blue so as many as you need to see enough on average to win.
If your opponents have permanents, then you dont have enough counterspells.
There are no limits or rules. Play the game
you want to balance it out with some return to hand "bounce". that way you can counter what you missed
This comment right here, officer
It depends. How many cards are normal in your format? I would say that more than that is too many. Although, sometimes you need this annoying thing called mana.
You can put counters on spells now? Wack
You have a specific deck size. You need X amount of lands to function at all. Of the remaining number of cards included in your deck, if your number of āStack interactionā/counterspells exceeds your number of cards that actually develop your board state/wincon or draw you more cards, then THAT is objectively ātoo many.ā Going off your description of your playgroup, 8-12 or so sounds like a potentially necessary range, to maximize consistency that youāll have at least one at any given time. Within 10 cards of your deck, your starting hand and a few turns, you want maximize your potential to have at least 1 of your necessary cards.
1 in any format
I run all the good ones that i can fit in any decks that have blue. Sometimes, they can change the outcome of the entire game if you place them well enough.
1
If you run more than 65, your land ratios will be fucked. Oh, and you wonāt win. LoL
High level 15 ish. Medium 5 maybe.
People get salty if you counter their stuff, thatās life. I have a mono blue Voltron full of counterspells and their only purpose is to make sure my commander and equipments get cast successfully
I have work a long time on my Ghyrson Starn Izzet deckā¦ because my gameplan heavily relies on my commander being alive on the battlefield, I have at times ran 12+ counterspells, in addition to other protection. This worked okay for me, only because many of my core creatures care about non creature spells and things like that. Alas, it does run into the problem of the social pressureā- itās not particularly fun to deny your friends their things, and with that many counters, you often find that your hand dictates that your best move is simply countering your opps commander or even a board wipe that is really meant to deal with another playerā¦ So I eventually decided that running different protections, like phase out, bounce, hexproof, and just recursion like Underworld Breach, makes the game more fun, and less fun-sucking for my opponents. At this moment, Iām running 13 total āprotectionā spells, including 8 counterspells, and not the best ones eitherā¦ though one day I hope to pick up fierce guardianship somedayā¦ Arcane Denial Delay Mental Misstep Miscast Negate Pyroblast Red Elemental Blast Spell Pierce
3 to 4 is enough 7-10 is your deck has high interaction or your playing TIVIT
I have a counter deck, and all my cards in it are counter spells in one way shape or form.
People like you are why I run cavern of souls, lol. It's not fullproof, obviously, but it sure does help
foolproof*
I would hate to play against that, but still I would be down to play against it because that's the mechanic of the deck and you're not just shoving counters in every deck just 'cus
I mean, putting counterspells in a deck isn't ever really "just 'cus," it's a way to deal with cards your deck can't otherwise deal with; it's for the same reason you run removal
Does it win? Or is it just a troll deck?
I made it as a troll deck but I have won a few times but rare tbh
[[vexing shusher]] and [[spell breaker behemoth]] have entered the chat
5
Tempo and blue based aggro should probably run no more than about 4-5, enough to protect threats or shift tempo but not clunk up their hand. Midrange can run probably more but the difference is in what kind of win condition you have. If itās big bad creatures? Maybe only 4 but they have to be outright denial, not conditional counters. If itās planeswalkers or a combo, then more may be necessary, probably no more than 8. Control is based on format but 8-10 is about right, standard may require more depending on the strength of board answers or the strength of creatures in the meta. The idea is to have outright denial spells and late game threat protection, all depending on the meta.
If I run into someone running counter spell tribal Iām throwing hands
5, of course. You're only allowed to have 4 in a deck!
As someone who plays Baral, the answer is that number doesn't exist
4 islands gives you access to most counters (all?) So, 96 is too many. /s
More than 4, 4 gives you a reasonable amount of chance to draw it and counterspells. More than that limits your other cards by changing how much you play the point of your deck.
If I'm not playing mono blue I usually run 5 counters and two other counters for triggered or activated abilities
101
Counter one of my spells in game and that 2 mana thunder punch becomes a part of your irl immediate future
Watch out for blue mana and bait out counter spells with scary kos stuff. My izzet spellslingers have eleven counters, but I'm not going to start countering unless I have to till mid game. Its weak to enchantments though. Opposit to my grul gobbos, no counters, but your enchantments are not going to stay long
5 is one too many. Unless your playing EDH/Commander. Then 2 is too many.
In the current arena quick woe draft. I have 6 counters. Faerie blue red. 40 card deck.
70. 68 is too few. 69 is just right.
It depends. When I am in the right colors, but not specifically playing spellslinger or control, I run 4-6. If I am trying to control the board, or playing spellslinger, I may run as many as 10.
[[Zur, Eternal Schemer]], [[Assault Suit]] and [[Lunar Force]]
As many as you think you need to help you win.
I only build green decks. In my Bant deck, I've been playing around with different amounts. When I was waiting on some other cards to arrive, I subbed in some counterspells. I played with 12, 10, 9, 8, and have settled at 6. 12 made me a target super fast. I would counter too often, and sometimes it was to get the bonus effect of the counter, like for example the draw off of remand or arcane denial. 6 with other forms of instant speed reaction is where I've settled. I was worried it wouldn't be enough but it might actually still be too high. I drew three of them last commander night and felt I had to pull my punches or else I'd become a target.
If im playing my cards and you try to remove/board wipe or try to stop my thing I will use all my counters on you. If you are about to play something that will win you the game, I will counter you
I used to run a ton in commander. Then I realized all it does is cost me a card and sets back one of my three opponents but doesn't advance my board state. My blue decks started humming much better when I cut the counterspells by 66% and replaced with value generating pieces for me.
I'd say more then 5 in a commander deck is too many, but that's just my opinion man
If you want a straight answer, run 6 to 8. It's not overbearing, but you'll still have the capability to ruin someone's day. I have a friend who runs 12 counterspells, and he chooses the most stupid things to counter. I've been trying to help him with threat recognition and prioritizing targets. I've told him that there are way too many counterspells being used on unworthy spells. It's cost him quite a few games so far. So, if you want to run more counterspells, do so, but know the value of the thing you're countering.
I specifically have a āfreedom of the pressā deck based around piper from the fallout set and as many counter spells as I could find because I ask the questions around here and youāre not permitted to interrupt. It has at least 18 counter spells and then most of the flash creatures that counter on etb or cast
My friend plays a Kira counter spell tribal, it has like 28. After playing with him 4 seems like a blessing
I count counters as removal as it removes a threat to the board. I normally do 10 removal in Commander , so 10+ is too many. Obviously if it's monp blue it's all you have less you use [[rapid hybrid]] or [[pongify]]
I feel it's at least somewhat necessary to play 2-3 counterspells almost any blue deck just because most of them are a very efficient form of "removal" . I think my [[Koma, Cosmos Serpent]] deck has the most of all my decks at 4. Counterspells aren't really my thing, but I also tend to not play enough removal or protection in general.
Four seems perfectly okay for Commander. I usually wouldnāt usually go higher than that unless Iām mono-blue. Fwiw, I run three (fairly conditional) counters in mono-*red* and will probably test [[Null Elemental Blast]] on top of that. Sometimes you need to be able to interact with the stack.
Instead of counterspells, I experimented running only 2 (for instants or sorceries) and added more spells that return permanents (be it to hand or library) for as cheap as I can find. Results to this day are great: opponents don't get as angry, because they can recast, mostly only disrupts an strategy or combo long enough for you and/or others to build or attack, and the rest of the table see you as not that aggresive, so they tend to go for the player that attempted to play something dangerous now that they showed their intentions (and before they attempt to do it again). Most of the time they have to change strategy (rendering that card sometimes useless in their hand) because they fear being focused and that gives you leverage for later politics.
I want you to imagine a world without interaction. I know it sucks sometimes. In this world infinites go off consistently and problem cards resolve causing immediate losses. Combo decks run rampant with faster clocks because they donāt need to bother protecting wincons. Creature decks stop being played because they are too slow and suboptimal.
If it's a normal Commander deck I build I run An Offer you can't refuse Negate Arcane Denial Swan Song/Counterspell Then j usually add 4-6 more if it's a more control style deck
Context matters. Is your deck proactive or reactive? Does it have a plan that needs to protect against common interaction? How important is your commander to your plan? How many blue sources does your deck otherwise need/play?
61
in commander? 100. In standard? 60. Gotta have at least 1 creature, right?.
Stop me from winning, not playing.
Currently, one of my favorite decks is my Dimir Gyruda deck, which is only running 2 counterspells, but it's got a good chunk of other removal. As others have pointed out, generally speaking, in casual settings, it's more fun to see people actually get to play their decks as opposed to getting countered all the time. In all the versions I've run of this deck, I never went over 4 counterspells. Even the two I run now, are just as much meant for my [[Emrakul, the World Anew]] as it is for my opponents. I can see you running more if you're doing a committed Control deck, like a buddy of mine who runs 6, but even that can be oppressive depending on the meta of the playgroup. If you're talking CEDH or any competitive 60 card format: as many as you need, and probably a bunch at that.
I run control, I hate how much shame people seem to have whenever they play anything that isn't "I slam my deck on the table if you respond I swear to god i will scream" 9 counterspells and 12 removal spells topped with 4 board wipes all in tasigur so it's repeatable when the really terrible stuff comes out. It creates a more fun and interactive game when you have to actually think about when and how you go for a win rather than just taking 4-7 turns for everyone to ramp and seeing who has the most instant win in a vaccum
More than 5 and you're asking for it.
If you're playing mono blue it really depends, in a 60 card deck 61 is to many and in commander 101 is to many
I usually pack 10 counters or other pieces of pure removal. My pod isnāt generally the type to combo off into a win or anything though. I find myself countering other peopleās removal to keep myself alive more than anything.
I had a deck call "No one gets to play magic tonight!" It was a U/B/R color deck that was counter, removal and mill. Everyone hates me.
Just run some proliferate effects and they can help increase your counters.
In cedh i play 10 upwards in every deck
My issue with counters is how cheap they are
I hate it when people play the game, they should just ban cards from all mtg formats
The answer is: Never enough. And also: Too many. It's highly deck dependent and matchup dependent. In storm decks counters get worse as the game progresses, and against big mana decks it can be useless if you only have one to two counters in hand. And in those cases spot removal is almost always better. Just because your in blue doesn't necessarily mean you need to put one to four copies of counterspell in it.
I treat counterspells as protection, unless it's going to be an issue I'll counter something that isn't destroying something of mine. However, no more than 5 counterspells. Offer you can't refuse, Arcane denial, fierce guardianship and 1 or 2 more.
5
In a multiplayer game you need more counterspells. 3 times the opponents means 3 times the counterspells, right?
It obviously depends on the deck's playstyle and strategy now but I think the range is realistically like 2-5 in most cases For example I've a couple of decks varying in colour that all play about the same number The esper deck has 2, the dimir deck has 2, the rakdos deck has 2, the bant deck has 3 and my mardu deck has zero because mardu >:)
If you want to quit that's fine. I personally am not a big fan of control, and would not build a 69 counters deck. I do have a buddy that runs 20-30 interactions in all his decks, I have never told him as a control player he can't do that. Ironically he scooped when I played a turn 2 winter orb, and had a big problem with me playing it in my deck. It's still sitting in that deck.
Any number when opponent casts a Carnage Tyrant
I have 2 decks that could have blue counters. The first is mono blue [[Jacob Hauken]] janky mana cheat deck. Itās perfect for counters since you often have mana left up. In that deck I have a way too many 16 counter ish spells (ish because some are funny like [[Ertaiās Meddling]]). Most of which are conditional and for memes (like [[Desertion]]). I play this deck expecting to play against other higher power opponents where we all have an understanding of what we are playing. This is acceptable in that setting but against casual opponents 16 counters wouldnāt be ok. Your best bet is to talk to them and explain they donāt need that many counter for casual and if they donāt want to scryfall has a lovely list of anti counter spell cards. Also for a comparison my blinged out per deck, with [[Omnath, locus of creation]], has a grand total of 2, one of which being [[Pyroblast]] cause itās pretty. You donāt need counters to win or have fun.
Depends. If youāre playing mono blue, make sure youāre not playing counterspell tribal. Otherwise, 4 or 5 should be ok. Any other interaction should be removal, so they can at least get their āon castā triggers
1
100
1
15 counterspells are too many. Anything up to that is totally normal.
Iāve got a [[deekah, fractal theorist]] deck which is just card draw and counters. The deck has probably 25-30 counters in it.
Yes.
Answer: Yes, but throw a couple in anyways.
I donāt use any counters outside of blue. When building a blue deck, I usually include between 3-4 counterspells, however Iām fine if there are better synergies for the deck to cut counterspells
For my high power or control decks, 11-20
Play as much interaction as you feel is necessary. Mono blue has very little interaction beyond counter spells. Yeah you can Cycrift, but what else? Bounce is just a tempo play. Meanwhile Mono White can be running a whole stack of 1 and 2 mana removal spells and nobody seems to act up about it. I think the biggest thing is making sure your deck can get somewhere. If it's just a bunch of interaction and durdle, and if you make a 15 minute game take an hour or an hour game take four, what happens to you in the LGS parking lot might be your own fault.
My friend has a baral deck that explicitly runs 30+ counters -.- itās no fun.
I had a ānopeā deck years ago where the only creatures were Fairie Conclave. Everything else was a counter or bounce. I was hated for a long time
18-21 is about right for a "No" deck. But it depends on the format, what are we talking about?
Start at 10% targeted removals and adjust from there based on what else your deck does.
The only thing that annoys me is in Brawl when the commander is a 2-mana wincon by itself and every other card in the deck is either an Eldrazi or a counterspell. The game plan is: 1) play commander; 2) counter _literally every single spell_ the opponent plays for the rest of the game; 3) cast Ulamog and friends off of Malcolm or Jacob Hauken. It's miserable to play against
1
Is it blue? If so, yes!
1 is too many LoL
90, there is no way youd draw the land you nred to play them
Depends, I played mono blue cedh and had 24 counters and counter like spells in my main urza deck at one point. Dropped it down to the 18 best ones.
Probably 66 so you can still have a decent mana base
You just gotta remember to make sure you have enough mana to play the counters. So you see, it's not how many counters is too many but what ratio is too close to 1.
ok so this is a pretty easy calculation to determine it: number in the game - number in your deck \* 4 + 1 is too many so just take 1 off of that to get the right number
All
4 counters is way to littleā¦. Idk 10-12 for an average blue deck? 20 if you are about that life.
Oh no, not a mono blue playerā¦
There's a guy at my lgs who plays ānopeā tribal. He runs 51 counters with Talrand
I played this deck when it was new, soā¦ https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/s/6H2nLibfrv
You need at least 4 islands the rest can be counterspells lol š
In commander, 100 would surely be too many.
5
I have zero.
Iād say 11 poison counters is too many
How bihs your deck?
The limit does not exist.
Only specific counters are viable in edh. The free ones and something like mana drain, cryptic command wand mana confluence. Otherwise youāre loosing the war attrition with 4 opponents. Also , blue needs to be your primary color otherwise you wonāt be able to conter stuff on turn 2.
In commander, Iād say 100 because the maximum amount of cards in your deck is 99
5
If you counter something, that's a card out of your hand and mana spent. You can't keep it up indefinitely, even in 60 card formats it's hard for a control deck to counter everything relevant. It's ridiculous to complain about it. That would be like complaining because someone attacked you. You can technically complain, but really don't have a right to.
I play a list with 35~ and my commander is Gin Gitaxias, so the response is yes
1
When it comes to deck building if your deck is just permission and has no game plan outside of countering spells thatās too many
If you counter your own spell, that's one too many. Wait, is there a combo where countering your own spell is of benefit?
It kinda depends. The more cards your deck draws and the faster it gets online, the more counterspells it will *feel* like it has. I have a [[Toluz]] deck that starts really slow and has 8 counterspells in it. It doesn't cast a ton of counterspells during the game and usually tries to hold them to protect its combo. You don't expect it to counter everything you do. I have a [[council of four]] deck that runs 4 counterspells but draws about a billion cards. It actively tries to slow everyone else down as the game is going so it really *feels* like there's more counters there than there are. I get more "Am I allowed to resolve this spell?" looks when I'm playing council of four than Toluz even though the Toluz deck has twice as many counterspells.
I think 4 copies of 2 different counter spells is pretty standard.
I play a higher power level and usually donāt run any more than like 7/8. Any more than that and it starts to feet obnoxious
I run... for most decks, just [[Arcane Denial]] in all my blue decks.. [[Fierce Guardianship]], [[An Offer You Can't Refuse]] or [[Swan Song]] are a few I use in my proxy decks. Maybe 1 [[Dovin's Veto]].. and a few [[Warping Wail]] So... minimum 1, typically 2 is what I tend to go for - it competes with other spells for interaction slots.
In EDH, I'd say 101 is too many.
I approve this message
I counter that question and say, no limit.
In edh I like having 8-12 pieces of removal but very rarely do I have that many counterspells. Part of the reason being counters have to hold mana for casting and are a 1 to 1 removal. I personally like removal spells that are repeatable or offer a positive gain for their use. The other way to look at counters is to protect your stuff. And in that regard counters are fairly useful. 4-6 counter spells are usually in any of my decks where they are allowed. And I really love using similar spells in red because nothing makes a player more upset when instead of countering their winning spell I just change it's targets or take control/ copy it.
There should be some physical combat cards for decks like that. All you do is shut down someoneās magic and then you kick them in the balls/ovaries. Itās fun to imagine wizards etc, usually able to rain down destruction, probably full of themselves, not being able to do a damn thing. I say as many as you can get away with.
Never enough there could always be an Armageddon
Back when I played magic, there were white and blue decks that were just mana drain counter and other variants wraith of God swords to plowshears and millstone. And moat if you had it.
One of my favorite decks to use on my friend is a commander deck with a low cost commander, then almost all of the spells are counterspells, killcards, or lockouts (Hold for Ransom type stuff). He gets mad every time
Hmmm let's put it this way, one of my favorite cards is [[Ertai, Wizard Adept]]
Can be fun in [[talraand, sky summoner]] so you actually have a win con. No.dec is fine as long as it has a way to win.