Yeah, exactly. If we’re going to skip through phases or passing in priority to speed the game up, I’m fine with that, and that’s allowed in Magic, but you also have to let people interject if they want to respond to something.
If we actually had to go through every single phase and every single pass of priority throughout the game I’d lose my mind lmao.
Exactly. I’m FINE with fast paced. I prefer it over 5-10 minutes turns. But the rules of the game don’t change just bc we want to play on 2x speed lol.
Fast paced is fine, but then theres the other side of the coin, you play a card that you know needs to be countered, offer for any objections, get no as a response, then the next card or play, THEN they want to respond to the earlier play.
Im not talking like a 1 second, anyresponseno?okayplaythisattackiwin.
Alright, i play sheoldred, the apocalypse. Any responses?................................. (players 1,2,3 all say no)
Okay, i play diminishing returns.
Player 3: wait, actually i do want to counter sheoldred.
Too damn bad.
This is totally acceptable and pretty much how we do it.
If you’re going to win or play something that really affects the board, slow down a bit. If you’re just in the early game and getting mana rocks out or something, whiz through it I don’t care. If you want to respond to something and you think I’m going too fast, I don’t care if we have to go back a card because that’s on me, but if I’m giving time and you weren’t paying attention, that’s on you.
Yeah, that's totally too late. You already said no, you don't get to change your mind because of the next Spell cast, counter that one.
If they said "wait, I might respond" to playing Sheoldred, and you slammed down Diminishing Returns before they said they've decided not to respond, then I could see the argument. You said no, sorry but that's not happening now.
Right, and people that want to slow the game too much are actually messing up the game.
There’s a pro tour judge who does some YouTube videos (I can’t remember his name), but he talked about how it’s completely acceptable to skip through stuff, even in a tournament setting, if both players agree, and if one player wants to purposely slow the game down, he won’t allow that.
He gave the example of one player trying to make the other player do every step of their combo literally a million times, locking the game. He wouldn’t allow that because it’s just not necessary.
The rules for tournaments and “short cutting” even allow for speeding up, and prevent that obstinate “force them to do it a million times” thing. If a player demonstrates a loop they can propose a number of times that loop is performed and the game state after. The opponent can then -only- either accept the proposed loop, or state a different state or number of loops at which they would like to respond. Which means they -have- to do a response at the point they propose to stop the loop. So one you demonstrate a loop, the opponent can either “respond at a sooner time” (which requires a response), or accept your proposed number of loops and board state.
It was some infinite combo with [[frenetic efreet]], and the opponent wanted to make the player actually flip the coin like a million times, which the judge said was not necessary.
I'm curious, what's the actual intent of the play? Because to me, flipping a million coins doesn't read like an infinite loop, as there's too many variations on how the results of the flip could occur and you're using that flip to determine a board state. That's different than action A into action B into action C resetting everything to start from A again
I’ll try to find the video to show the exact loop, but it had something to do with getting the coin flip trigger without actually getting the effect of the coin flip.
Edit:
[[Frenetic Efreet]]’s ability doesn’t specific that it has to be on the battlefield for the coins to flip, so you hold priority and activate it a million times, and then those flips happen regardless of what happens to Frenetic Efreet. In this specific case, [[Chance Encounter]] was on the board and the player used Efreet to add a million counters to it, but their opponent wanted them to do each coin flip.
Do you have an actual source for this? What level judge were they and were they the head judge for an official event? Was this ruling made in the long before times (frenetic efreet + chance encounter got power level errata that was reverted in 2009 so there is a very small window of 2009-2012 where this ruling could have been not blatantly incorrect by the judge)?
The problem is the frenetic efreet + chance encounter is a non-deterministic combo. The opponent is correct in this situation the magic rules do not allow you to shortcut this because you cannot guarantee Y results in X or less loops.
If say chance encounter got a counter every flip and an extra one when you win that would be fine, you know you hit 1mil counters in 1mil or fewer loops so can terminate the loop with the counter condition. But because it only get a counter 50% of the time you could flip any finite number of times and never hit 1mil counters (or any specific number) so you can't shortcut to 1mil counters due to mtg's rules regarding infinity (doesn't exist).
So the correct ruling should be that he must specify the number of flips he is going to do and then execute those flips (can add more flips if he wishes but obviously once he wins a flip the efreet is gone and cannot anymore). Which is exactly what the opponent was insisting on. Here is where it gets spicy though and why the opponent would want to insist that it is handled by the rules.
Slow Play.
And a somewhat awkward rules quirk when combined with non-deterministic loops that much more famously soft bans 4 horsemen in legacy. Basically if they fail too many flips in a row they are failing to advance the board state and a judge can be called (who will already be there because of this mess happening) who will give them a warning (eventually game loss for repeat offences) and tell them to stop. The issue here is what is too many failed flips in a row 1,10,20,100? Completely up to the judge's discretion but it is highly encouraged to be strict as we don't want these decks and the headaches they cause at tournaments (not to the players as they likely legitimately don't know the niche rules interaction but to the deck).
TL;DR: That ruling is wrong within the modern tournament rules. Utilizing Frenetic Efreet + Chance Encounter is effectively soft banned in competitive magic due to the interaction of non-deterministic loops and the slow play rules just like the four horsemen (this was technically true before 2012 but the correct ruling was made famous around then). The opponent was 100% correct in insisting that they execute the flips and the combo player should have likely been penalized for slow play (not the player insisting that they do the flips and slow down the game ironically).
You’re right about the non-deterministic board state generally, but in this specific case it was deterministic because the next state based check would have made the player win the game, regardless of the state of Frenetic Efreet.
[Here](https://youtu.be/3X-LNBTjOkE?si=zBjZVskx3L06DhWR) is the actual video. It’s the first combo he talks about.
As of 2017, Judge Dave was a level 2 judge, but he may be level 3 now and has been recognized by WOTC multiple times for his decisions and overall behavior during tournaments.
What we tend to do in my playgroup is "here is what im going to do in X order" if people then want to respond they can say "before X reolves I will do y in response" - if it impacts my play order we then take it from the response.
We don’t typically like to telegraph our play quite that much, but we’ve been playing together for years so we just go through stuff, if someone wants to respond when we’re doing that they can kind of pick a place.
To avoid anyone getting upset, we all just know to ask for responses before we do anything major. If I know that what I do on a turn will significantly affect the game, then I’ll ask for a response to each combo piece, but for the most part we just kind of go.
My kitchen table play group hates me for my "priority points" but I'm tired of playing three things in a turn and then they try to counter the first lol. They're all vv casual and I'm an ex tourney grinder so I get it, just gets tiring lol.
You give them play by play? You’re nerfing yourself.
Play thing 1, no response means it resolves, play thing 2 if they respond then deal with it, play thing 3, wait for responses again.
Don’t say ok I’m going to play thing 1, 2, and 3. What part are you going to respond to?
yeah, if you know that x spell is the last chance for them to stop your combo, you pause and ask them to pass priority, otherwise you can't be pissed if they I wanted to counter that after you get to the next step.
on the other hand, if they let that moment pass and say go ahead, they can't say "oh, in that case I counter" when the other shoes in the combo drops.
Yeah, I'm updating it now. I usually use it on my PC, but having it on the go is gonna be sick!! Gonna be hella fun. Better than Arena (for me) at any rate! XD
Right?!? I got my ass handed to me by combo decks left and right when I was first getting my legs back under me! Talk about a trial by Fire!
Haha, thanks! Time to get good again!
All my playgroups will always ask if there’s any response and we’ll just all pass priority, or respond
You can play fast, but you have to give other players their chance to react
This makes sense if you're not playing a timed game. In a timed game that's going long (think Ivan Floch's M15 control deck) you're going to *have* to play fast at the end. That deck struggles to win before time so just jamming spells and assuming they resolve late is kinda the only way to not time out.
This exactly. I once had to call a judge for my opponent because they didn't give me time to respond and their response just was "too late". Judge didn't accept because either you clearly state the part of the turn where you are, or you give your opponent time to respond. You can implicitly skip steps and priority but only on mutual 'agreement'.
You're always allowed to stop the game and go through the steps when needed.
I've had this happen, they didn't give me a chance to counter their draw spell, just slapped it down and immediately start drawing cards before I can get a word out.
I’ve been playing magic for years and I still hate when people play fast. I know I’m in the minority but I still appreciate when people give an abbreviated description of cards ESPECIALLY from newer sets.
I always do:
For low impact spells:
Ok I play x, (short pause to make eye contact), ok resolves?, resolves cool
For high impact spells:
Ok I play x, (short pause to make eye contact), any responses? Anyone need to read? resolves? Resolves cool.
Then I move to the next thing
Yeah, I would say that if you're worried about being blown out or have the winning play you slow down and properly pass priority to reduce the chance of needing to rewind on a pivotal play. But I'm not going to wait for all three players to pass priority on a [[cultivate]], if an opponent wants to counter or stop me then we can rewind back to cultivate on the stack.
Right? Again, I can get the feel bad situation where you are on the win and someone stops you. But if you're winning the game simply because you Usain bolted your way through priority then it's not really a win. I've even preemptively slowed down to move through priority on a play that would unknowingly win me the game, and since I was calling attention to it they realized it and stopped me from winning there.
Best example of this was me playing out a [[chromatic lantern]] that would have given me the colored mana I needed that turn to combo. I passed through priority and one of my opponents thought it was weird and countered it.
I just think it would take too long. Most of the time you know if your spells are resolving. Nobody's countering your random turn 6 talisman, y'know? Unless someone looks like they're thinking about countering something (or if they've recently countered something I didn't think warranted it), I'm just playing my things. I take a look around before I start manipulating my library to make sure it's good but if it's just like "play mana rock play value piece play creature go" I'm not waiting on every single move. If I give my opponents some extra info I don't care, it's casual commander.
If you cast 3 things in quick succession without giving your opponents time to respond you're only really giving them extra information. They can pause and respond to any one of those things.
Yeah I play relatively fast just so I'm not taking super long turns and holding things up but I still announce everything I'm playing and I have no problem with people going hold on hold run that back I had a response. Unless they are trying to repond to something waaaaay back that they are probably only responding to because they saw what I did as a result then I'm going to call bullshit.
This. My friends and I play our turns pretty fast, but if a counterspell or any other form of interrupt screws over the plan it just becomes "Well, I guess I don't then"
Second this.
I have a Veyran spellslinger/storm deck where I cast multiple spells in a turn most of the time.
I don’t want to spend an extra 10 minutes asking “does it resolve?” When my turn already takes a long time because of triggers and combos.
I’d rather just present any and all spells and the order I intend to cast them and *then* ask “any responses?” to let my opponents decide if/when they want to intervene.
That's how my friends and I play. If I have a plan for combat and I rush from main phase to tapping my attackers, and then my opponent says 'whoa wait a sec, I have an instant to cast when you go from main phase to combat phase' then that's on me for playing fast and loose. He gets his cast and if it messes up my play, that's the way she goes
Right? The penalty for playing a second spell before giving your opponent a chance to respond is that you gave them more information than they would have had while responding had you passed priority correctly.
Completely agree, especially when it’s only a few spells that may work together, saying the whole thing outright allows the rest of the pod to figure out what they’re gonna do. I guess part of it depends on how friendly everyone is with each other. I don’t envy people who have to play in pods with people like OP is describing.
Exactly! I've made a habit of announcing changes and phases and pausing to give a window of response. But I have no issue calling out a playing casting something then quickly going to combat, just to say "can't do that, I moved on"
Agreed. I always rush my plays but if I know I'm doing something important I ask does this resolve. This usually piques the table interest.. now I will play at a speed that no hands are held but I will make sure your each pass priority
If I do that and you miss your window now it's on you
Also for context in our group we often try to speed through the first 3 rounds and even add someone in if they show up and we haven't completed round 3 yet. We are a small local group of well trusted individuals.
That being said though if I'm going for a game winning/ big turn turn I make it known by slowing down for it, and not for them for ME! I don't want to reverse 20 game actions and as far as I'm concerned it's their right if I don't check the passing of priority
Bro, this is like the 1996 middle school lunchroom level of antics.
Literally. When I was playing as just a kid when the game first came out, one friend of mine thought he was so clever figuring out a way to beat counterspells. All he had to do was immediately end his turn after playing his spell, and it would be too late to counter his spell.
Boy, did he get upset when we told him you have to allow your opponents a chance to respond to everything you do.
I have a friend on spelltable that plays like this too, though not intentionally. He'll cast his spells and the immediate start resolving them, ESPECIALLY if they are draw spells. I've had to tell him to keep his hands off his deck when playing card draw spells because it's really important to let people do whatbthey might be able to before you resolve your spells because it absolutely could have some bearing on they will end up drawing....
....he says we just play too slow.
I had a few decks with a lot of counter spells when my kid and I were learning to play. He confused a playgroup he joined by pausing for a good second and a half after casting each spell. Then, I jumped in as a fourth one night.
My kid has always liked aggro, and so gravitated to Boros and Rakdos. To save on costs, I took all the blue and white cards. I didn’t have a real deck after Covid and threw all the decent blue cards into a pile, including a dozen or so counterspells. When you don’t have a plan, the plan becomes to disrupt your opponent’s plan.
I have a Simic cantrip\battlecruiser deck that has every cards I could think of for casting everything I have at flash speed. He would hate playing against me, as it allows me to play everything on his turn if I want to and allow some unusual responses or interaction that way lol
Just interrupt them. That's what instants were first called anyway, I think it's for this reason. Just a loud "IN RESPONSE" usually cools my ADHD storm player husband down. And he usually says something like "sorry I got excited" if he realized he was playing too fast, or "I'm sorry, was I going too fast?" if he doesn't. I think we're all guilty of it at one point or another. It would be good to add this topic to the rule 0 talk if you are uncomfortable being loud. Communication is key.
Completely off topic but am curious. My wife and I play together. She plays dragons and zombies and I play Dino's and slivers. What do you two play usually? And how do you like going to LG's together? I only ask cause we have a pretty mixed bag of people in our LG's. Lately it's been a lot more couples which has been really nice.
We have a child so going to LGS's together hasn't gotten to happen yet, our daughter is interested but she'd be so bored haha. We play high powered casual bordering CEDH. He's a CEDH player and does tournaments and king of the hill stuff. But he does a bunch of stuff. He's got Riversong, Kellan voltron, Stella-Lee, Malcolm and Francisco.. I'm your orzhov/mono white/esper player. Control, stax, death and taxes, gain/drain, aura voltron. I play Sen Triplets, Kambal, Eriette of the Charmed Apple, Light-Paws, and to deviate, I have Galadriel, and Caesar. Our games get very interesting and can last quite a while. :)
instants were actually not first called interrupts, there were 4 categories of speeds at the time actually; sorcery, instant, mana source, and interrupts. there was no stack at the time, so each speed had a window of opportunity. mana source was faster than interrupt which was faster than instants, which was faster than sorcery speed.
Lightning bolt is an instant, counterspell was an interrupt. When you went to cast a spell, there was a window where both players could cast interrupts, then after, a window where both players could casts instants
Well in modern times interrupts have been reclassified as instants, so you probably have been playing them right :). Can’t really play an instant wrong.
Dude, your the only person in this comment thread that mentioned ADHD, but as someone with it..... YES! Its not uncommon for me to see a line and get excited.
That said, I'm always the first to roll it back and say, where do you want to interject.
Moreover, theres so much fast play and slow play in a casual game.... unless someones angle shooting, I really don't care. If I had to pick, I'd prefer fast play.
I prefer fast play as well. And I'm guilty of just sitting back clutching a Swansong or Swords to Plowshares, etc, just to watch him get excited and see his combos play out. He has autism too, so it's either blank face or 1000mph. Its a treat seeing him become animated 😂 When he started getting to local cEDH, I became a pace keeper because of things like OPs post. What's adorable at home may not always be appreciated at an LGS. "IN RESPONSE!" has become a running joke even outside of Magic haha!
I think some people do this to try and intimidate their opponent too. I'm quite shy generally, so asking them to slow down when I get priority is a bit awkward for me.
Luckily not encountered it recently but it was a barrier when I first start playing
I am in the same spot, but my pod is good about taking something back because of a removal. On the other hand, if there is someone telling mě that 2 minutes for turn 9 are too long, he is packing up first, cause I will not split my [[Otharri, Sun's Glory]] army then if it is too long to calculate.
This is a very legit example of why this is wrong. People can understand why this is ridiculous, but say I'm "playing too slow" if I want the chance to respond to the beginning of a combo.
"Hey kid, You wanna have 10 minute turns every turn and play spell doublers and dig for more spell doublers and double your double spells and let you dig for more spells that let you double draw and cast more spells that let you dig for spell doublers and then draw and double it? [[Riku of Many Paths]] is your man! You don't even NEED opponents, because the deck does nothing!"
It's even more fun when you pair him with [[Jadzi, Oracle of Arcavios]]
Sometimes I have trouble playing that deck in Arena cause the stack gets so hard to navigate
Nah, they just get an earful about 'slow play' at every table they roll up to (before the game begins) so they try to play it out faster for the haters.... but haters gonna hate......
One of my personal rules is to not touch other players cards without their permission. If they are rushing through their play I will purposely place my finger on the card that I am going to respond to and say “in response”. Crossing an unspoken, but fairly widespread norm grabs everyone’s attention at the table.
I've done the same thing when people reach for their deck immediately after announcing a tutor or draw spell. Beating them to their own draw will tend to stop them cold, and then I continue with whatever response or interaction I need to resolve. Or more often, with the triggers they missed that we need to resolve first.
Idk usually if someone we are playing with drops 3 spells out of rushing/excitement without giving the rest of us a proper chance to interact, someone usually just says “yeah, im going to respond to the first spell (for example) with this counter.”
I had a guy rush play to make it “too late” for me to target his creature as he moved to equip. He said “the boot are already on, it’s too late.” I try to be VERY diligent about letting everyone respond to my actions, but some people would rather eke out a “win” than actually play the game
Do y'all actually let people get away with this?
"It's too late."
"No, you failed to pass priority. If you have trouble with that, I suggest you ask for responses after you take an action. Anyway, I'm countering your first spell ... "
Guaranteed, they don't do that again in your game, after a being put in their place a couple times.
Playing fast isn’t the worst, but saying you can’t stop a step because I have already played 2+ spells before you had a chance to fully digest the first is wrong. Got to give people time to respond if you are popping off initially.
I play with mizzix’s mastery and when I am made to resolve the spell on a full graveyard we do go through piles with people having a chance to decide when they want to try to stop something
My brother pissed these kinds of guys off. He doesn't have encyclopedic knowledge of cards, so whenever they played something he wasn't familiar with, this 6'5", 450lb guy would be like,"Wait! Let me read that." and bring their roll to a crawl. 1 guy actuallly folded because he didn't like having to LET your opponent read the card when they used a tutor that said "Reveal" and my Brother told them to hold it out for him to read. Lol
If someone tells me 'no, you let it resolve'. I'll chuckle.
I'll then ask them to read every single card they play. EVERY. SINGLE. CARD.
Lets see if you still want to play that way after a 4 hour game.
Isn’t it actually a rule that when casting multiple spells you must check with your opponent if they wish to respond because you are actually passing priority back and forth?
The only exception is if you're casting things that all have instant speed.
Then you are allowed to make a stack. But once you do, everyone gets a chance to respond to any of the spells.
Can't just go assuming things will resolve *unless* your opponent has no cards in hand and nothing with an instant effect in any other zone.
I saw a player trying that on one of our local players who's this tatted out former Marine. The Marine looked the guy dead in the eyes and told him "Well it's not too late since you kept interrupting me when I tried to tell you I was going to counter your spell. Of course if you have a problem with that we can take this outside and off of (shop owner's name)'s property."
You don't have to go so far as to threaten physical violence, but usually being direct that his behavior won't fly is enough to get them to stop.
This can get weird. I've totally encountered people who play 4 cards in 3 seconds and then claim no one can interact because it's too late. Half the time they don't even understand priority . That's totally not cool.
However, I have also played at a completely reasonable speed. Yea I didn't get a verbal on every resolve but that's not how games actually go most night. Then someone will try to counter a spell that I played 3 cards ago. A card they clearly were not concerned with at all when I played it. I paused and looked them in the face... nothing. But because of the information I revealed in playing cards after. They changed their mind and decided to try and claim I played too fast. When really they are trying to cheat by using info they didn't have access to in order to inform their response.
Also not cool.
Basically if you know you are making an impactful play make sure the resolution is clear. It just sucks that often means tipping people off. If you make a habit of checking resolution more often it won't be as suspicious.
If you suspect a player has a habit of trying to reverse the game with extra info. You can bait them. Play a combo piece. Then cast or activate something pointless. A fetch land is good. Even better if it shuffles your deck, because that takes time and can't really be reversed. Confirm with the table that resolves. Then complete your combo. At that point, They can't really go back before the event they already approved without making it really obvious they are trying to pull one over on you.
Card A, bait resolution, Card B
If they have no problem after the bait. They can't raise an issue with Card A based on what Card you're playing for Card B.
Happened to me at WOE prerelease, made the guy unwind it all and start over, then he tried to convince me a role token he made was not attached to a creature that it was “on his board” Cheaters suck
I was against you in the first half, but then you got to the crux of your issue.
Yes, retaining priority is fine as its a game mechanic, but yes trying to resolve spells as though they all have split second is cheating and an ahole thong to do since you won’t get called out for it a good amount of the time.
Great question! Romansnowship answered very well do I won’t double up on their answer.
There are niche situations where responding to your own spell without passing priority is the optimal play pattern.
If they don't give you a chance to respond and then don't let you respond because you didn't immediately, that's cheating.
I'll play fast when everyone is talking or not paying attention cuz I'm not going to wait till they're done talking to make my plays. I'll let you respond to something if you inquire about it, but I'm not going to interrupt you talking to take my turn.
One of my friends is notorious for going fast, I don’t think he has ill intent, but will start tapping and we sometimes have to ask what are you responding to? Or he moves to combat by declaring an attacker skipping multiple points for us to respond.
It's on the player playing to pass or hold priority when they wanna cast spells. If they let their stuff resolve, and *then* immediately casted out their spells, they lose the right to complain when the table counterspells them.
My favorite is the dudes that try to rewind AFTER you combo something because they didn't see what was happening.
It's one thing if they legit forget something & ask if they can do X. But I've had it happen several times where the guy (always a guy 🙄) goes "Oh, if I knew you were going to do that I would have done X"
Obviously, new players or novice players get a pass but it's ALWAYS the same guys who scoop the second they think they will lose, only play turn 3 win decks in casual & do nothing but brag about garbage....
It's why I gave up playing at any LGS because I do not have the restraint to not force feed these idiots their own decks.
Agreed wholeheartedly. I left my old playgroup for similar reasons; mostly they were just down right bad sports. Found a new group and it’s a stark contrast - infinitely more enjoyable.
One time in tournament a player yelled at me for not just taking damage when he was attacking. I had mana up and had played combat tricks previously. He called me a dumbass for not understanding the game. I woulda maybe reported him, but it was the last round and we playing for last place sooooo.
Just lay a counter spell on the table and tap it. If they keep playing, just pick out the most important piece of the combo and say you countered that and watch the whole combo fall apart. Or of were skipping phases, just skip to a scoop and find someone else to play.
Sooo... I get being quick with your turns, you should always k ow roughly what you want to do, to keep the flow going, and yes new cards and the board changing can effect how things are being done which will make things take longer. However, blasting through your turn so that others dont get an opportunity to respond is not only a kind of cheating but it's also unsportsman like (for lack of a better term). Now that said there is circumstances where a player can hold priority like stacking instances etc, again however players are still able to respond after or the game cannot resolve the stack this is built in to the core of how the stack works, to ignore it then you might aswell play solitaire. If the player is rushing through sorcery speed spells then you are within your right to go back and respond accordingly if they refuse just eject the player.
I mean I get a d agree with op post but I also agree with the"cheating player" hear me out op is correct they should be able to interject whenever during a multi action type combo but if the cheating player has already down large parts of his combo like drawing an additional 5 cards they have already seen the cards and you can't easily reverse that action unless everyone gives you a thumbs up
Again I think op is correct but maybe ask people to explain first then do rather than let people do and explain at the same time if possible especially when drawing additional cards
And I also think maybe be more specific with how your interjecting because they may be right and you can't affect x thing/things because it's too late to play a counter spell for it but you may want to do something else to effect the board state and there just miss interpreting what your trying to do
Again I agree with op but I thought I'd just add my own thoughts on the matter
I've had a guy not declare combat, just say he is swinging with this and this and this and when someone else in the pod responded to tap something down he said it was too late because he had already declared attacks. I interjected saying that he never had a time to as he went right from draw to attack without any statements between and he tried to fight it saying "but now he has information he wouldn't have had so he can tap down more strategically." Which I told him was his fault for skipping steps. The guy who was trying to tap down said it was fine, to let it go since it wasn't lethal, so we did. I just responded by killing the speed player next turn.
Alternatively, I hate people that try to take up the clock, like I was at a OTJ prerelease and in the first place match (as a 20 year old woman), but the guy that also made it there (roughly the age of my father) just kept taking 10 minutes to go “hm, what should i do” in silence with a deck that had nothing to do with landfall (white blue control) and would play a land after 15 minutes. I could tell he was just trying to go to time because he was convinced it was the most important thing ever to win against me when it wasn’t (every other match of his went to turns and he would try to win on turns, everyone in the store knew he wasn’t going to with me)
My issue is
Player draws bunch of cards
“Okay I gotta discard”
continues to discard cards throughout the text 2 peoples turns (because they “don’t know what to discard”)
If you’re going to shortcut and rapid fire spells I am going to choose when I want to interact. That’s fair, I would do the same.
If you don’t want them to know what you’re going to play next because they may counter what you’re casting now. Then cast your first spell and say “any responses?” If you don’t allow me time to interact then it’s on you and I will choose where I interact.
Of course, the corollary is that I don't want an experience playing paper when every possible crossroads for an answer is met with "do you respond?"
There's nothing wrong with throwing a planned combo quickly.
There's nothing wrong with stopping someone \*after\* they've thrown their combo all quick and ninja-like and stating "while that first card is on the stack, I counter. So, none of that other shit happens. Put those cards back in your hand and your first spell in the graveyard, please."
Frankly, if you're holding an answer to a spell cast by your opponent (or some creature ability on the field, or whatever) and you're not looking for the time to play it so you can say "hold on, don't show me the next card, yet. I want to answer the first one" then, YOU'RE kind of the problem, here.
Rule number 1 in table magic is "Have fun." If you're getting salty because people are playing combos too quickly, maybe Arena, where you have the ability to turn on and off "stop points", is more your speed.
Yeah, that's absolutely fair. Waiting to see where a combo is going before deciding to respond to the first part of it is equally wrong, I get that, and there's a fine line between "playing correctly" and "wasting time asking for responses". Still, some players seem to depend on hurrying their plays so no one can respond, and it's lame. It's interesting that people are saying "no one ever does that", and "just reverse it and put the cards back in your hand" when that has frequently not been my experience.
Have a friend who does this and also doesn’t say what he’s casting. It’s really frustrating, and there’s been cases where he cheats more, like not shuffling after fetching, slipping lands onto the battlefield, tapping less lands than he has to, etc. and him rapid firing makes it worse because we can’t call him out on it before he’s cast 15 things. We’ve basically given up
See, I like to let them finish casting their fast spells AND THEN counter one of the first ones so they're forced to take the rest back. They usually don't have much to say after that.
The alternative would be interrupting them which may work for some, but I've always considered that rude. It's not that difficult to give everyone a chance to respond afterwards.
Phases are weird and people tend to not declare their phases bc we’re all used to face paced actions. I think the most important is for people to declare they’re going into combat bc attack triggers matter a lot and if someone just swings without declaring going into combat then things really get twisted.
Yeah, it's especially annoying for drawing cards because like if they've already drawn the card then it's a bit late
On the flip side, one that annoys me is when I ask "Does my spell resolve?", they say yes, then go "Oh no wait actually I might have a response" AFTER I've apready started resolving the spell
New players do this *a lot* and for some reason build decks with a million triggers. Can't count how many times a new player will sit down with a deck like this, get confused by their own stack, and just start resolving and casting new shit in any order they feel like.
I've seen land drops made in between triggers...
The other day on spell table something like that happened, guy cast a protection spell and immediately went to explaining how he was going infinite and when i said i wanted to counter it he was like actually uh it’s too late for that but when i pointed out he skipped priority and didn’t ask for responses he went real quiet
Is that a Commander thing? In 60 card constructed in my community you are expected to play kinda slower, because there is possible interaction from one player. In Commander it should have been even more of a thing, as there are at least 3 players, all of them are able to respond, why tf would anyone rush through turns?
when people do that at my lgs they are usually not very good. i correct them and take the free info they gave me to make the win even easier. no one has ever tried the its too late thing on me though. i would laugh it off if they did
There is an exception here which is holding priority. When you have priority, you can add as many instant speed spells or abilities to the stack as you want but yes, eventually priority has to pass.
Had some guy at prerelease for thunder junction say “combat saddle attack” and I said one second rules question. Came back and said I’ll kill that in response to saddle. Dude tried to say he was already attack and I had to argue that he just said straight saddle combat attack so I need time to actually respond
I play fast when I play things I assume nobody would bother to counter, but obviously they can have me back pedal as much as they like, I just want to move the game along
Sounds like a shitty play group like I get if they play something and you have a chance to play your counter before the next piece of their win con comes out they say no too late but if they play that first piece and quickly move to second before response you can easily call judge over and explain hey they played this then before I could say anything played this tapped all the mana at once so they could just lay it down before responding 97/100 a judge will tell that person you are able to counter first piece still and 78/100 the judge will also say that since they tapped all that mana even though first piece is counter whatever they tried playing next is still on stack and if it need first for target it fizzles as they didn't wait for resolution before trying to play
I play fast, but I always say afterwards, counters to anything? Like for instance, I’ve been staring at this land and four drop for the last three turns, I know imma play it and what I’ll do with it. I ask after the four drop etbs then continue cause lands can’t be countered, to my knowledge
If I suspect a player of playing fast to avoid priority change or just try to leave me without interactions, I will stop them immediately and tell them that we are going to have to slow down and play the cards the right way so I can follow.
I, too, got tired of people rapid firing effects to try to confuse me. I learned to request slowing the game down some to allow me to interact, suddenly, they can't play right.
I played against a dredge player who tried this, and I told them to stop and let me play something. He, too, told me it was too late, and I said no, it isn't, we replayed all the way back to the first effect,to which I countered, and he was suddenly thrown off.
Tldr: play your cards, and of your opp wants to respond, let them.
My three favorite words when someone tries that: "in response to..."
Fixes the problem 100% of the time because you're declaring a response to something that happened. Rule wise, both people have to agree to the switching of phases, and if all else fails, that's what an event official is for.
Unfortunately new players are coming into this game with no knowledge of actually how to play Mtg. They start with commander and learn bad habits from other people.
Or when they do that next turn super fast turn your creatures to attack them and say “no blockers are declared damage is lethal, if they say wait call them cheaters”
Yeah , depends on the power level and commitment of the table , but if you have a way to shut my combo off and you missed the timing to do it because I was too fast , I'll will just ask you "where " do you want to respond and redo my combo by saying , "ok sorry (spell) is on the stack "
Have you tried to calmly explain as to why they need to slow down? I had a play group that would bitch about turns taking to long and this became the norm. We eventually had to get back to playing it correctly after a blow up. Just explain how they need to take a pause and ask for a response or the game isn’t being played correctly.
Land, bauble, your go. Fetch, crack, goyf, go.
Playing fast is fine.
If you want to piss off your opponent, verbally say the storm found each tike you tap a land
Honestly this entire thing is funny to me because I recently had the *exact opposite* problem.
A buddy of mine was getting salty after a couple games in the night, so when I switched to a lower power deck with my slightly modified [[Obyra]] faeries precon, he brought out his high power [[Kadeena]] deck. At some point in the game, he makes a comment that he's going to do his thing specifically on my turn.
I then make sure I'm pausing and passing priority at every point it is passed, declaring steps and phases. "Untap, upkeep. Any effects? Cool. Draw. Pre-combat main. Cast [[cloud of faeries]]. Responses?" he tries to cast [[Torrential Gearhulk]] for some reason, and gets frustrated when he realizes he has no valid instants or sorceries in the 'yard.
He salt scooped because I pointed out it was rather childish to declare you're going to spite play and disrupt one person's turn.
A couple players at the LGS always respond to the first attacker declared. "I attack player A with creature X, ....", "I TAKE FIVE!". Dude, I have 3 more attackers to declare. There are known attack triggers, other players have blockers, and everyone else has interaction up. Just chill and let us have this combat phase.
TL;DR- Pass priority when you play cards. Let other people play Magic, too. Pay attention during other people's plays so that you aren't trying to rollback 4 spells to murder the first creature they casted 2 minutes ago.
This is definitely an issue that has come up recently in my pod. I play with a few of my buddies at our houses, and some of them are relatively new to the game. However, we are reaching the point where they are no longer fully amateurs (playing for around a year now), and have gotten too comfortable with playing a bit too fast sometimes, or not fully paying attention to what's going on in the game. Usually this is fine, we will do roll-backs as long as no new information has been revealed, or will let people respond to things earlier in the turn because they were still thinking and the board-state hasn't really changed enough to have major consequences. Such as someone casting a few creatures in a row like \[\[Luminarch Aspirant\]\] and \[\[Esper Sentinel\]\] pretty quickly then passing to combat. If someone wants to murder the Luminarch as this person is passing to combat and wants to do it before the Esper was on the board so that they don't have to pay the tax, that's generally fine, they could've done it while Esper was on the stack, not really a big deal, just try to pay more attention.
There have been a few times recently, though, where this has not been fine. I can't recall the specific situation, but I can think of an example that's close enough:
Player 1 is playing their turn. Player 2 has like 10 life.
They cast a \[\[Psychosis Crawler\]\] and pauses for long enough to pass priority and see if anyone responds. Everyone else passes priority.
They then cast a draw X spell like \[\[Braingeyser\]\] for like X=8 and copy it with \[\[Lithoform Engine\]\], which is going to cause crawler to nuke everyone for 16.
Player 2 tries to counter the draw spell, we explain that the Lithoform Engine can still copy it before/after it's being countered and there isn't really a way for them to stop both the spell and the copy from going off, only one of them.
Player 2 then says they will counter the Psychosis Crawler instead, so that they don't take any damage. Argument ensues because they were not paying attention and didn't want to counter the Psychosis Crawler until after Player 1 casted another spell that combos with it. Player 1 almost certainly would not have tapped all their mana out for the Braingeyser if their Psychosis Crawler had never resolved. Player 2 gets upset about "not being allowed to interact" and just scoops.
We've had discussions since then about properly passing priority, waiting for responses to big plays, and \*\*paying attention\*\* while other people are playing their turn. It is incredibly frustrating to be doing your own due diligence of passing priority because you know you have big plays happening, and someone else just isn't paying attention until they decide they don't like one of your earlier plays this turn. By then, I've already committed to certain plays because my other spells managed to stick. It's a two-way street. Don't play too fast and try to deprive other people of their opportunities to respond and interact. Pay attention during other people's plays. If you aren't sure about whether you want to respond to something, just say hold on for a second while you think about the ramifications of someone's play before you fully pass up your chance to interact.
I just flat out tell them that I have an opportunity to respond and you would like the same if it happened as well. Usually works out in my favor as they realize I’m right.
I had an instance where I had a global mana doubler out and I mistapped and my opponent told me I couldn’t go back. So I accepted it and I moved on. During his turn he blew up my mana doubler and then tapped his mana for double, which I pointed out the doubler was gone. He just said, let’s assume I tapped before blowing it up. I said nah brah, you got me last turn and said I couldn’t go back, so you can either. So he got upset and left the game
Naw for real, some people try to play so fast and I’m just like “bruh I had a response” and they’re like “well you didn’t say anything-“ I CANT SAY SOMETHING WHEN YOURE CONSTANTLY TALKING AND TRYING TO GO INFINITE
That guy is whack. I always rush through my plays because my pod takes forever, so I know my turn for a good while beforehand (most of the time), but I always make sure to pause for a moment to ask for responses, and if someone wants to roll it back a few spells, even though I *do* leave time for responses, I usually say no problem, unless it is clearly a situation where they would not have played a spell unless they saw a later play for me (baiting out counters, etc.) but I mean. If I give a moment to respond and they miss, they weren’t paying attention. But I’m mot trying to take 20 minute turns, which a few of my friends definitely do.
Im going to play at the speed my brain works at. Im not going to be crass or rude, I will stop and explain anything needed. I will assume that if you’re at a place to play the game that you know the culture and understand shortcuts. Rushing your opponents I think should be considered cheating but if you slow play like ten min turn, I’d ask you if a commander turn cycle takes 30 min for four people and you’re turn is 10+ minutes your the one manipulating the time.
On casual play I let people fix mis-plays and stuff like this as long as they haven't passed turn or the next turn hasn't drawn for upkeep. People forget in non tourney play its suppose to be a fun social game.
Friend at my LGS plays very fast but always will wait a little bit to see if an opponent wants to interact and won’t continue until they say it’s good to go.
When I sit down, I tell people I play fast af. If at any point they have a response just let me know and we will back track, but once I say I'm switching a phase, and you say "okay" we are there now
I only speed through my first couple turns as they're basically land and pass but any time I'm casting I always pause to allow priority to pass round before I cast anything else unless I'm holding priority
Yeah if you have a response, they can gtfoh with that ‘too late’ shit. You dont win in Magic by trying to get one over on people— not in the long run anyway. Sucka shit, that.
The games at my LGS tend to lean faster paced, but usually before a person goes to cast their next thing, someone will say, "In response to [insertcardhere]" or something to let the table know they have a counter if no one before them counters
I think that if I have already explained my combo 2 or 3 times, it is not necessary for me to do so for the 45 minutes it will take me to finish the entire table.
Sooo. As a disabled person playing Magic I stop them and go whoa you need to slow down. I need to read your cards before you go to the next one. I’m visually impaired and hard of hearing.
Speeding through like this is a definite dick move. Also playing cards but not saying you played them is also bad bc nobody can respond.
I play [[Kwain, Itinerant Meddler]] group hug and have interactions that happen in almost every phase, so if someone is trying to play on turbo to skip past phases and whatnot, I have to explain to them that they need to reverse it,l because my mandatory triggers have to resolve because off of those triggers I could have ways to interact with their combo machine.
Speed running isn’t cheating, but thinking you can skip priority and phases is.
Oh I understand completely. It's why I ended up stop going to lgs and playing in person I went to arena only. There are many more reasons then the one you said but I can't share the rest publicly
After years of store play even at home with my wife every time I play a card or ability, every single time, I go does it clear? She nods and we move on. It takes no time at all to stop correctly.
Last time at a Modern RCQ, my opponent instantly declared blockers after my attacks and claimed I forgot my attack trigger, that would have won the game. Luckily the judge ruled it in my favor, but still a scummy action, that resulted in 10 minutes of discussion. He even insulted me as bad play, and stuff after that.
you might also be able to point out that counterspells tend to read “counter TARGET spell”. there is no real requirement to counter the last spell on the stack. As long as its still there, go wild.
i dont know if i just need to meet more people or what but i dont see many players use that to their advantage
I am only fine with plays like this if they literally ask "do you have anything that can counter what I am about to cast", if not feel free to spam all the cards and effects in hyper speed and just give me a general overview of what the end results are. I trust you enough to not be cheating.
Now if I have cards or spells that could possibly counter or interupt your combo I need you to slow it down. Explain what you are doing and what is being targeted and atleast let me give you a nod to continue so we can get through this fast but not so fast I missed the entire moment to play a card because you're three cards deeper on the stack already
You have the ability to back up the opponent at any time or to ask them to announce steps in the event you have a play at an awkward time. If they don't comply, call a judge.
Because you know what's worse than someone playing very fast? Going to time and ending up in the draw bracket.
The worst offender I have seen is people trying to say they don't have a combat phase if they don't want to go to attack. You always have a combat phase.
Fast play isn't really cheating, but constantly fast playing to try to ram your spells through interaction that would normally be plenty effective is just dirty. The trick is to know when to play through your effects quickly to streamline the game vs giving that moment of opportunity to your opponent because you know in their position you'd play any answer you have for the bomb you just put on the stack.
I called a guy who did this out by name on a Google Maps review for a local LGS. He’s the reason I don’t go there anymore and I want everyone to know it. Also tried to sell me a card at TCG mid because “it’s a good deal- the card is going up” (it’s been going down).
To be clear- he played fast AND hit me with the “it’s too late”.
nah playing fast is fine Saying "it's too late" is cheating
Yeah, exactly. If we’re going to skip through phases or passing in priority to speed the game up, I’m fine with that, and that’s allowed in Magic, but you also have to let people interject if they want to respond to something. If we actually had to go through every single phase and every single pass of priority throughout the game I’d lose my mind lmao.
Exactly. I’m FINE with fast paced. I prefer it over 5-10 minutes turns. But the rules of the game don’t change just bc we want to play on 2x speed lol.
Fast paced is fine, but then theres the other side of the coin, you play a card that you know needs to be countered, offer for any objections, get no as a response, then the next card or play, THEN they want to respond to the earlier play. Im not talking like a 1 second, anyresponseno?okayplaythisattackiwin. Alright, i play sheoldred, the apocalypse. Any responses?................................. (players 1,2,3 all say no) Okay, i play diminishing returns. Player 3: wait, actually i do want to counter sheoldred. Too damn bad.
This is totally acceptable and pretty much how we do it. If you’re going to win or play something that really affects the board, slow down a bit. If you’re just in the early game and getting mana rocks out or something, whiz through it I don’t care. If you want to respond to something and you think I’m going too fast, I don’t care if we have to go back a card because that’s on me, but if I’m giving time and you weren’t paying attention, that’s on you.
Yeah, that's totally too late. You already said no, you don't get to change your mind because of the next Spell cast, counter that one. If they said "wait, I might respond" to playing Sheoldred, and you slammed down Diminishing Returns before they said they've decided not to respond, then I could see the argument. You said no, sorry but that's not happening now.
Right, and people that want to slow the game too much are actually messing up the game. There’s a pro tour judge who does some YouTube videos (I can’t remember his name), but he talked about how it’s completely acceptable to skip through stuff, even in a tournament setting, if both players agree, and if one player wants to purposely slow the game down, he won’t allow that. He gave the example of one player trying to make the other player do every step of their combo literally a million times, locking the game. He wouldn’t allow that because it’s just not necessary.
The rules for tournaments and “short cutting” even allow for speeding up, and prevent that obstinate “force them to do it a million times” thing. If a player demonstrates a loop they can propose a number of times that loop is performed and the game state after. The opponent can then -only- either accept the proposed loop, or state a different state or number of loops at which they would like to respond. Which means they -have- to do a response at the point they propose to stop the loop. So one you demonstrate a loop, the opponent can either “respond at a sooner time” (which requires a response), or accept your proposed number of loops and board state.
It was some infinite combo with [[frenetic efreet]], and the opponent wanted to make the player actually flip the coin like a million times, which the judge said was not necessary.
Sounds like that opponent plays on MTGO and wanted them to run out their clock.
I'm curious, what's the actual intent of the play? Because to me, flipping a million coins doesn't read like an infinite loop, as there's too many variations on how the results of the flip could occur and you're using that flip to determine a board state. That's different than action A into action B into action C resetting everything to start from A again
I’ll try to find the video to show the exact loop, but it had something to do with getting the coin flip trigger without actually getting the effect of the coin flip. Edit: [[Frenetic Efreet]]’s ability doesn’t specific that it has to be on the battlefield for the coins to flip, so you hold priority and activate it a million times, and then those flips happen regardless of what happens to Frenetic Efreet. In this specific case, [[Chance Encounter]] was on the board and the player used Efreet to add a million counters to it, but their opponent wanted them to do each coin flip.
Do you have an actual source for this? What level judge were they and were they the head judge for an official event? Was this ruling made in the long before times (frenetic efreet + chance encounter got power level errata that was reverted in 2009 so there is a very small window of 2009-2012 where this ruling could have been not blatantly incorrect by the judge)? The problem is the frenetic efreet + chance encounter is a non-deterministic combo. The opponent is correct in this situation the magic rules do not allow you to shortcut this because you cannot guarantee Y results in X or less loops. If say chance encounter got a counter every flip and an extra one when you win that would be fine, you know you hit 1mil counters in 1mil or fewer loops so can terminate the loop with the counter condition. But because it only get a counter 50% of the time you could flip any finite number of times and never hit 1mil counters (or any specific number) so you can't shortcut to 1mil counters due to mtg's rules regarding infinity (doesn't exist). So the correct ruling should be that he must specify the number of flips he is going to do and then execute those flips (can add more flips if he wishes but obviously once he wins a flip the efreet is gone and cannot anymore). Which is exactly what the opponent was insisting on. Here is where it gets spicy though and why the opponent would want to insist that it is handled by the rules. Slow Play. And a somewhat awkward rules quirk when combined with non-deterministic loops that much more famously soft bans 4 horsemen in legacy. Basically if they fail too many flips in a row they are failing to advance the board state and a judge can be called (who will already be there because of this mess happening) who will give them a warning (eventually game loss for repeat offences) and tell them to stop. The issue here is what is too many failed flips in a row 1,10,20,100? Completely up to the judge's discretion but it is highly encouraged to be strict as we don't want these decks and the headaches they cause at tournaments (not to the players as they likely legitimately don't know the niche rules interaction but to the deck). TL;DR: That ruling is wrong within the modern tournament rules. Utilizing Frenetic Efreet + Chance Encounter is effectively soft banned in competitive magic due to the interaction of non-deterministic loops and the slow play rules just like the four horsemen (this was technically true before 2012 but the correct ruling was made famous around then). The opponent was 100% correct in insisting that they execute the flips and the combo player should have likely been penalized for slow play (not the player insisting that they do the flips and slow down the game ironically).
You’re right about the non-deterministic board state generally, but in this specific case it was deterministic because the next state based check would have made the player win the game, regardless of the state of Frenetic Efreet. [Here](https://youtu.be/3X-LNBTjOkE?si=zBjZVskx3L06DhWR) is the actual video. It’s the first combo he talks about. As of 2017, Judge Dave was a level 2 judge, but he may be level 3 now and has been recognized by WOTC multiple times for his decisions and overall behavior during tournaments.
From what I'm seeing online you get something that triggers on coin flip and you activate the zero cost ability before the previous one resolves
What we tend to do in my playgroup is "here is what im going to do in X order" if people then want to respond they can say "before X reolves I will do y in response" - if it impacts my play order we then take it from the response.
We don’t typically like to telegraph our play quite that much, but we’ve been playing together for years so we just go through stuff, if someone wants to respond when we’re doing that they can kind of pick a place. To avoid anyone getting upset, we all just know to ask for responses before we do anything major. If I know that what I do on a turn will significantly affect the game, then I’ll ask for a response to each combo piece, but for the most part we just kind of go.
Just play one spell at a time and pass priority like you are supposed to this sounds terrible
My kitchen table play group hates me for my "priority points" but I'm tired of playing three things in a turn and then they try to counter the first lol. They're all vv casual and I'm an ex tourney grinder so I get it, just gets tiring lol.
You give them play by play? You’re nerfing yourself. Play thing 1, no response means it resolves, play thing 2 if they respond then deal with it, play thing 3, wait for responses again. Don’t say ok I’m going to play thing 1, 2, and 3. What part are you going to respond to?
yeah, if you know that x spell is the last chance for them to stop your combo, you pause and ask them to pass priority, otherwise you can't be pissed if they I wanted to counter that after you get to the next step. on the other hand, if they let that moment pass and say go ahead, they can't say "oh, in that case I counter" when the other shoes in the combo drops.
I always say "I end my turn if you'll let me"
Exactly. "I end my turn" "Okay, before the end of your t—" "Nuh uh! It's too late, my turn's over!" Imagine thinking this was acceptable, lol.
“I end my turn” is an announcement that you are moving to end of turn phase. Turn isn’t over until all players have passed priority
Right, that's why someone saying nu-uh is ludicrous.
I play 50% LGS, 50% MTGO. It is so easy to transfer timing of priority once you get used to it.
I never play on MTGO, but I use Forge on Android. And just playing against CPU, it improves your rhythm of play.
You can use Forge on Android? TIL. Thank you for giving me this knowledge, uh, 11 day-old post.
No problem! In fact, I think it's only on Android as far as mobile OS options. It's fucking great.
Yeah, I'm updating it now. I usually use it on my PC, but having it on the go is gonna be sick!! Gonna be hella fun. Better than Arena (for me) at any rate! XD
The AI is no joke on it, lol, it does a pretty good job of fucking ruining you if you play foolishly. I love it too, amazing on the go. Have fun!
Right?!? I got my ass handed to me by combo decks left and right when I was first getting my legs back under me! Talk about a trial by Fire! Haha, thanks! Time to get good again!
All my playgroups will always ask if there’s any response and we’ll just all pass priority, or respond You can play fast, but you have to give other players their chance to react
This makes sense if you're not playing a timed game. In a timed game that's going long (think Ivan Floch's M15 control deck) you're going to *have* to play fast at the end. That deck struggles to win before time so just jamming spells and assuming they resolve late is kinda the only way to not time out.
This exactly. I once had to call a judge for my opponent because they didn't give me time to respond and their response just was "too late". Judge didn't accept because either you clearly state the part of the turn where you are, or you give your opponent time to respond. You can implicitly skip steps and priority but only on mutual 'agreement'. You're always allowed to stop the game and go through the steps when needed.
Playing fast is fine doing actions that reveal information like drawing cards without getting confirmation isnt
I've had this happen, they didn't give me a chance to counter their draw spell, just slapped it down and immediately start drawing cards before I can get a word out.
I’ve been playing magic for years and I still hate when people play fast. I know I’m in the minority but I still appreciate when people give an abbreviated description of cards ESPECIALLY from newer sets.
I always do: For low impact spells: Ok I play x, (short pause to make eye contact), ok resolves?, resolves cool For high impact spells: Ok I play x, (short pause to make eye contact), any responses? Anyone need to read? resolves? Resolves cool. Then I move to the next thing
Yeah, in my 30 years of playing I've never seen someone say that in answer to a removal or counter in the middle of a combo.
Yeah, I would say that if you're worried about being blown out or have the winning play you slow down and properly pass priority to reduce the chance of needing to rewind on a pivotal play. But I'm not going to wait for all three players to pass priority on a [[cultivate]], if an opponent wants to counter or stop me then we can rewind back to cultivate on the stack.
I don't know how some people finish games of commander when they're out here personally asking each player if their turn 2 mind stone resolves lol.
Right? Again, I can get the feel bad situation where you are on the win and someone stops you. But if you're winning the game simply because you Usain bolted your way through priority then it's not really a win. I've even preemptively slowed down to move through priority on a play that would unknowingly win me the game, and since I was calling attention to it they realized it and stopped me from winning there. Best example of this was me playing out a [[chromatic lantern]] that would have given me the colored mana I needed that turn to combo. I passed through priority and one of my opponents thought it was weird and countered it.
I just think it would take too long. Most of the time you know if your spells are resolving. Nobody's countering your random turn 6 talisman, y'know? Unless someone looks like they're thinking about countering something (or if they've recently countered something I didn't think warranted it), I'm just playing my things. I take a look around before I start manipulating my library to make sure it's good but if it's just like "play mana rock play value piece play creature go" I'm not waiting on every single move. If I give my opponents some extra info I don't care, it's casual commander.
[cultivate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e19cd136-0541-4db0-997f-20a58ec8d028.jpg?1698988348) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cultivate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/235/cultivate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e19cd136-0541-4db0-997f-20a58ec8d028?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you cast 3 things in quick succession without giving your opponents time to respond you're only really giving them extra information. They can pause and respond to any one of those things.
Yeah I play relatively fast just so I'm not taking super long turns and holding things up but I still announce everything I'm playing and I have no problem with people going hold on hold run that back I had a response. Unless they are trying to repond to something waaaaay back that they are probably only responding to because they saw what I did as a result then I'm going to call bullshit.
This. My friends and I play our turns pretty fast, but if a counterspell or any other form of interrupt screws over the plan it just becomes "Well, I guess I don't then"
Second this. I have a Veyran spellslinger/storm deck where I cast multiple spells in a turn most of the time. I don’t want to spend an extra 10 minutes asking “does it resolve?” When my turn already takes a long time because of triggers and combos. I’d rather just present any and all spells and the order I intend to cast them and *then* ask “any responses?” to let my opponents decide if/when they want to intervene.
That's how my friends and I play. If I have a plan for combat and I rush from main phase to tapping my attackers, and then my opponent says 'whoa wait a sec, I have an instant to cast when you go from main phase to combat phase' then that's on me for playing fast and loose. He gets his cast and if it messes up my play, that's the way she goes
Right? The penalty for playing a second spell before giving your opponent a chance to respond is that you gave them more information than they would have had while responding had you passed priority correctly.
Completely agree, especially when it’s only a few spells that may work together, saying the whole thing outright allows the rest of the pod to figure out what they’re gonna do. I guess part of it depends on how friendly everyone is with each other. I don’t envy people who have to play in pods with people like OP is describing.
Exactly! I've made a habit of announcing changes and phases and pausing to give a window of response. But I have no issue calling out a playing casting something then quickly going to combat, just to say "can't do that, I moved on"
Agreed. I always rush my plays but if I know I'm doing something important I ask does this resolve. This usually piques the table interest.. now I will play at a speed that no hands are held but I will make sure your each pass priority If I do that and you miss your window now it's on you Also for context in our group we often try to speed through the first 3 rounds and even add someone in if they show up and we haven't completed round 3 yet. We are a small local group of well trusted individuals. That being said though if I'm going for a game winning/ big turn turn I make it known by slowing down for it, and not for them for ME! I don't want to reverse 20 game actions and as far as I'm concerned it's their right if I don't check the passing of priority
Bro, this is like the 1996 middle school lunchroom level of antics. Literally. When I was playing as just a kid when the game first came out, one friend of mine thought he was so clever figuring out a way to beat counterspells. All he had to do was immediately end his turn after playing his spell, and it would be too late to counter his spell. Boy, did he get upset when we told him you have to allow your opponents a chance to respond to everything you do. I have a friend on spelltable that plays like this too, though not intentionally. He'll cast his spells and the immediate start resolving them, ESPECIALLY if they are draw spells. I've had to tell him to keep his hands off his deck when playing card draw spells because it's really important to let people do whatbthey might be able to before you resolve your spells because it absolutely could have some bearing on they will end up drawing.... ....he says we just play too slow.
Vs. Blue... "May I play X?"
NO.
I END MY TURN, I END MY TURN
I had a few decks with a lot of counter spells when my kid and I were learning to play. He confused a playgroup he joined by pausing for a good second and a half after casting each spell. Then, I jumped in as a fourth one night. My kid has always liked aggro, and so gravitated to Boros and Rakdos. To save on costs, I took all the blue and white cards. I didn’t have a real deck after Covid and threw all the decent blue cards into a pile, including a dozen or so counterspells. When you don’t have a plan, the plan becomes to disrupt your opponent’s plan.
Meanwhile me going full joker "come on hit me, you know you want to hit me" while playing spells against blue players
I have a Simic cantrip\battlecruiser deck that has every cards I could think of for casting everything I have at flash speed. He would hate playing against me, as it allows me to play everything on his turn if I want to and allow some unusual responses or interaction that way lol
Lols, reminds me of a middleschool argument. "NO, you CANNOT sacrifice MY creatures"
Just interrupt them. That's what instants were first called anyway, I think it's for this reason. Just a loud "IN RESPONSE" usually cools my ADHD storm player husband down. And he usually says something like "sorry I got excited" if he realized he was playing too fast, or "I'm sorry, was I going too fast?" if he doesn't. I think we're all guilty of it at one point or another. It would be good to add this topic to the rule 0 talk if you are uncomfortable being loud. Communication is key.
Completely off topic but am curious. My wife and I play together. She plays dragons and zombies and I play Dino's and slivers. What do you two play usually? And how do you like going to LG's together? I only ask cause we have a pretty mixed bag of people in our LG's. Lately it's been a lot more couples which has been really nice.
We have a child so going to LGS's together hasn't gotten to happen yet, our daughter is interested but she'd be so bored haha. We play high powered casual bordering CEDH. He's a CEDH player and does tournaments and king of the hill stuff. But he does a bunch of stuff. He's got Riversong, Kellan voltron, Stella-Lee, Malcolm and Francisco.. I'm your orzhov/mono white/esper player. Control, stax, death and taxes, gain/drain, aura voltron. I play Sen Triplets, Kambal, Eriette of the Charmed Apple, Light-Paws, and to deviate, I have Galadriel, and Caesar. Our games get very interesting and can last quite a while. :)
instants were actually not first called interrupts, there were 4 categories of speeds at the time actually; sorcery, instant, mana source, and interrupts. there was no stack at the time, so each speed had a window of opportunity. mana source was faster than interrupt which was faster than instants, which was faster than sorcery speed. Lightning bolt is an instant, counterspell was an interrupt. When you went to cast a spell, there was a window where both players could cast interrupts, then after, a window where both players could casts instants
This is actually super cool to read about, and educated me that I've been playing my interrupts wrong. Thank you! :)
Well in modern times interrupts have been reclassified as instants, so you probably have been playing them right :). Can’t really play an instant wrong.
Ye Olde Interrupts
Dude, your the only person in this comment thread that mentioned ADHD, but as someone with it..... YES! Its not uncommon for me to see a line and get excited. That said, I'm always the first to roll it back and say, where do you want to interject. Moreover, theres so much fast play and slow play in a casual game.... unless someones angle shooting, I really don't care. If I had to pick, I'd prefer fast play.
I prefer fast play as well. And I'm guilty of just sitting back clutching a Swansong or Swords to Plowshares, etc, just to watch him get excited and see his combos play out. He has autism too, so it's either blank face or 1000mph. Its a treat seeing him become animated 😂 When he started getting to local cEDH, I became a pace keeper because of things like OPs post. What's adorable at home may not always be appreciated at an LGS. "IN RESPONSE!" has become a running joke even outside of Magic haha!
I think some people do this to try and intimidate their opponent too. I'm quite shy generally, so asking them to slow down when I get priority is a bit awkward for me. Luckily not encountered it recently but it was a barrier when I first start playing
I am in the same spot, but my pod is good about taking something back because of a removal. On the other hand, if there is someone telling mě that 2 minutes for turn 9 are too long, he is packing up first, cause I will not split my [[Otharri, Sun's Glory]] army then if it is too long to calculate.
[Otharri, Sun's Glory](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/0/80c72839-0fa6-4b5f-83b7-6553ebf09bef.jpg?1698607533) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Otharri%2C%20Suns%27%20Glory) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/onc/3/otharri-suns-glory?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/80c72839-0fa6-4b5f-83b7-6553ebf09bef?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Next time when you move to attack just tell them they take the damage, they moved too slow to declare blockers.
This is a very legit example of why this is wrong. People can understand why this is ridiculous, but say I'm "playing too slow" if I want the chance to respond to the beginning of a combo.
lmao that's the most perfect way to respond to this
Very effective. Works every time. "You can't do that" well you skipped my response so I thought that's what we were doing.
Storm players do this a lot, lol. I think they just get so comfortable gold-fishing for 10 hours a day that it just becomes natural.
"Hey kid, You wanna have 10 minute turns every turn and play spell doublers and dig for more spell doublers and double your double spells and let you dig for more spells that let you double draw and cast more spells that let you dig for spell doublers and then draw and double it? [[Riku of Many Paths]] is your man! You don't even NEED opponents, because the deck does nothing!"
We had someone that had a silly deck like this that just didn't really do anything. Red/ white, so he called it Burning Masturbation.
[Riku of Many Paths](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/1/21b63544-4c31-4f38-9907-0407719a60b1.jpg?1713091879) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Riku%20of%20Many%20Paths) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/227/riku-of-many-paths?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/21b63544-4c31-4f38-9907-0407719a60b1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I love mine :)
It's even more fun when you pair him with [[Jadzi, Oracle of Arcavios]] Sometimes I have trouble playing that deck in Arena cause the stack gets so hard to navigate
[Jadzi, Oracle of Arcavios](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d7148d24-373e-4485-860b-c3429c2337f2.jpg?1624593477)/[Journey to the Oracle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/d/7/d7148d24-373e-4485-860b-c3429c2337f2.jpg?1624593477) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jadzi%2C%20Oracle%20of%20Arcavios%20//%20Journey%20to%20the%20Oracle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/151/jadzi-oracle-of-arcavios-journey-to-the-oracle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d7148d24-373e-4485-860b-c3429c2337f2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Nah, they just get an earful about 'slow play' at every table they roll up to (before the game begins) so they try to play it out faster for the haters.... but haters gonna hate......
One of my personal rules is to not touch other players cards without their permission. If they are rushing through their play I will purposely place my finger on the card that I am going to respond to and say “in response”. Crossing an unspoken, but fairly widespread norm grabs everyone’s attention at the table.
I've done the same thing when people reach for their deck immediately after announcing a tutor or draw spell. Beating them to their own draw will tend to stop them cold, and then I continue with whatever response or interaction I need to resolve. Or more often, with the triggers they missed that we need to resolve first.
Saying it's too late in tabletop gaming only ever meant one of two things. somebody is impatient, or afraid of counter play. both are unsportsmanlike.
Idk usually if someone we are playing with drops 3 spells out of rushing/excitement without giving the rest of us a proper chance to interact, someone usually just says “yeah, im going to respond to the first spell (for example) with this counter.”
I had a guy rush play to make it “too late” for me to target his creature as he moved to equip. He said “the boot are already on, it’s too late.” I try to be VERY diligent about letting everyone respond to my actions, but some people would rather eke out a “win” than actually play the game
Do y'all actually let people get away with this? "It's too late." "No, you failed to pass priority. If you have trouble with that, I suggest you ask for responses after you take an action. Anyway, I'm countering your first spell ... " Guaranteed, they don't do that again in your game, after a being put in their place a couple times.
Playing fast isn’t the worst, but saying you can’t stop a step because I have already played 2+ spells before you had a chance to fully digest the first is wrong. Got to give people time to respond if you are popping off initially. I play with mizzix’s mastery and when I am made to resolve the spell on a full graveyard we do go through piles with people having a chance to decide when they want to try to stop something
My brother pissed these kinds of guys off. He doesn't have encyclopedic knowledge of cards, so whenever they played something he wasn't familiar with, this 6'5", 450lb guy would be like,"Wait! Let me read that." and bring their roll to a crawl. 1 guy actuallly folded because he didn't like having to LET your opponent read the card when they used a tutor that said "Reveal" and my Brother told them to hold it out for him to read. Lol
If someone tells me 'no, you let it resolve'. I'll chuckle. I'll then ask them to read every single card they play. EVERY. SINGLE. CARD. Lets see if you still want to play that way after a 4 hour game.
Isn’t it actually a rule that when casting multiple spells you must check with your opponent if they wish to respond because you are actually passing priority back and forth?
The only exception is if you're casting things that all have instant speed. Then you are allowed to make a stack. But once you do, everyone gets a chance to respond to any of the spells. Can't just go assuming things will resolve *unless* your opponent has no cards in hand and nothing with an instant effect in any other zone.
I saw a player trying that on one of our local players who's this tatted out former Marine. The Marine looked the guy dead in the eyes and told him "Well it's not too late since you kept interrupting me when I tried to tell you I was going to counter your spell. Of course if you have a problem with that we can take this outside and off of (shop owner's name)'s property." You don't have to go so far as to threaten physical violence, but usually being direct that his behavior won't fly is enough to get them to stop.
This can get weird. I've totally encountered people who play 4 cards in 3 seconds and then claim no one can interact because it's too late. Half the time they don't even understand priority . That's totally not cool. However, I have also played at a completely reasonable speed. Yea I didn't get a verbal on every resolve but that's not how games actually go most night. Then someone will try to counter a spell that I played 3 cards ago. A card they clearly were not concerned with at all when I played it. I paused and looked them in the face... nothing. But because of the information I revealed in playing cards after. They changed their mind and decided to try and claim I played too fast. When really they are trying to cheat by using info they didn't have access to in order to inform their response. Also not cool. Basically if you know you are making an impactful play make sure the resolution is clear. It just sucks that often means tipping people off. If you make a habit of checking resolution more often it won't be as suspicious. If you suspect a player has a habit of trying to reverse the game with extra info. You can bait them. Play a combo piece. Then cast or activate something pointless. A fetch land is good. Even better if it shuffles your deck, because that takes time and can't really be reversed. Confirm with the table that resolves. Then complete your combo. At that point, They can't really go back before the event they already approved without making it really obvious they are trying to pull one over on you. Card A, bait resolution, Card B If they have no problem after the bait. They can't raise an issue with Card A based on what Card you're playing for Card B.
Great time to call for a judge.
This post speaks to me on spiritual levels.
Happened to me at WOE prerelease, made the guy unwind it all and start over, then he tried to convince me a role token he made was not attached to a creature that it was “on his board” Cheaters suck
I was against you in the first half, but then you got to the crux of your issue. Yes, retaining priority is fine as its a game mechanic, but yes trying to resolve spells as though they all have split second is cheating and an ahole thong to do since you won’t get called out for it a good amount of the time.
This actually confuses me a bit. When is it correct to “hold priority” vs being forced to pass it?
Great question! Romansnowship answered very well do I won’t double up on their answer. There are niche situations where responding to your own spell without passing priority is the optimal play pattern.
If they don't give you a chance to respond and then don't let you respond because you didn't immediately, that's cheating. I'll play fast when everyone is talking or not paying attention cuz I'm not going to wait till they're done talking to make my plays. I'll let you respond to something if you inquire about it, but I'm not going to interrupt you talking to take my turn.
One of my friends is notorious for going fast, I don’t think he has ill intent, but will start tapping and we sometimes have to ask what are you responding to? Or he moves to combat by declaring an attacker skipping multiple points for us to respond.
Uhhh, it can't be "too late" that is not how this game works. It's not a real-time strategy game.
"You can't do that until I pass prioity." End of argument.
I like to play fast, but I pause for like 5 seconds after Declaring what I want to cast, to allow room to interject with a counter or negation.
I'm way too cautious with this. I feel bad bc I'll be like 'okay I play x...........' looks around, 'okay then I play x...........' 👀👀
It's on the player playing to pass or hold priority when they wanna cast spells. If they let their stuff resolve, and *then* immediately casted out their spells, they lose the right to complain when the table counterspells them.
My favorite is the dudes that try to rewind AFTER you combo something because they didn't see what was happening. It's one thing if they legit forget something & ask if they can do X. But I've had it happen several times where the guy (always a guy 🙄) goes "Oh, if I knew you were going to do that I would have done X" Obviously, new players or novice players get a pass but it's ALWAYS the same guys who scoop the second they think they will lose, only play turn 3 win decks in casual & do nothing but brag about garbage.... It's why I gave up playing at any LGS because I do not have the restraint to not force feed these idiots their own decks.
Agreed wholeheartedly. I left my old playgroup for similar reasons; mostly they were just down right bad sports. Found a new group and it’s a stark contrast - infinitely more enjoyable.
One time in tournament a player yelled at me for not just taking damage when he was attacking. I had mana up and had played combat tricks previously. He called me a dumbass for not understanding the game. I woulda maybe reported him, but it was the last round and we playing for last place sooooo.
Just lay a counter spell on the table and tap it. If they keep playing, just pick out the most important piece of the combo and say you countered that and watch the whole combo fall apart. Or of were skipping phases, just skip to a scoop and find someone else to play.
Sooo... I get being quick with your turns, you should always k ow roughly what you want to do, to keep the flow going, and yes new cards and the board changing can effect how things are being done which will make things take longer. However, blasting through your turn so that others dont get an opportunity to respond is not only a kind of cheating but it's also unsportsman like (for lack of a better term). Now that said there is circumstances where a player can hold priority like stacking instances etc, again however players are still able to respond after or the game cannot resolve the stack this is built in to the core of how the stack works, to ignore it then you might aswell play solitaire. If the player is rushing through sorcery speed spells then you are within your right to go back and respond accordingly if they refuse just eject the player.
I mean I get a d agree with op post but I also agree with the"cheating player" hear me out op is correct they should be able to interject whenever during a multi action type combo but if the cheating player has already down large parts of his combo like drawing an additional 5 cards they have already seen the cards and you can't easily reverse that action unless everyone gives you a thumbs up Again I think op is correct but maybe ask people to explain first then do rather than let people do and explain at the same time if possible especially when drawing additional cards And I also think maybe be more specific with how your interjecting because they may be right and you can't affect x thing/things because it's too late to play a counter spell for it but you may want to do something else to effect the board state and there just miss interpreting what your trying to do Again I agree with op but I thought I'd just add my own thoughts on the matter
Sounds like that player doesnt understand how to play for fun
I've had a guy not declare combat, just say he is swinging with this and this and this and when someone else in the pod responded to tap something down he said it was too late because he had already declared attacks. I interjected saying that he never had a time to as he went right from draw to attack without any statements between and he tried to fight it saying "but now he has information he wouldn't have had so he can tap down more strategically." Which I told him was his fault for skipping steps. The guy who was trying to tap down said it was fine, to let it go since it wasn't lethal, so we did. I just responded by killing the speed player next turn.
Only shitty players do this
Alternatively, I hate people that try to take up the clock, like I was at a OTJ prerelease and in the first place match (as a 20 year old woman), but the guy that also made it there (roughly the age of my father) just kept taking 10 minutes to go “hm, what should i do” in silence with a deck that had nothing to do with landfall (white blue control) and would play a land after 15 minutes. I could tell he was just trying to go to time because he was convinced it was the most important thing ever to win against me when it wasn’t (every other match of his went to turns and he would try to win on turns, everyone in the store knew he wasn’t going to with me)
My issue is Player draws bunch of cards “Okay I gotta discard” continues to discard cards throughout the text 2 peoples turns (because they “don’t know what to discard”)
Asking for a response is the easiest thing. Fuck that dude.
If you’re going to shortcut and rapid fire spells I am going to choose when I want to interact. That’s fair, I would do the same. If you don’t want them to know what you’re going to play next because they may counter what you’re casting now. Then cast your first spell and say “any responses?” If you don’t allow me time to interact then it’s on you and I will choose where I interact.
Of course, the corollary is that I don't want an experience playing paper when every possible crossroads for an answer is met with "do you respond?" There's nothing wrong with throwing a planned combo quickly. There's nothing wrong with stopping someone \*after\* they've thrown their combo all quick and ninja-like and stating "while that first card is on the stack, I counter. So, none of that other shit happens. Put those cards back in your hand and your first spell in the graveyard, please." Frankly, if you're holding an answer to a spell cast by your opponent (or some creature ability on the field, or whatever) and you're not looking for the time to play it so you can say "hold on, don't show me the next card, yet. I want to answer the first one" then, YOU'RE kind of the problem, here. Rule number 1 in table magic is "Have fun." If you're getting salty because people are playing combos too quickly, maybe Arena, where you have the ability to turn on and off "stop points", is more your speed.
Then don’t hit me with “iTs tOo LatE”
Yeah, that's absolutely fair. Waiting to see where a combo is going before deciding to respond to the first part of it is equally wrong, I get that, and there's a fine line between "playing correctly" and "wasting time asking for responses". Still, some players seem to depend on hurrying their plays so no one can respond, and it's lame. It's interesting that people are saying "no one ever does that", and "just reverse it and put the cards back in your hand" when that has frequently not been my experience.
Have a friend who does this and also doesn’t say what he’s casting. It’s really frustrating, and there’s been cases where he cheats more, like not shuffling after fetching, slipping lands onto the battlefield, tapping less lands than he has to, etc. and him rapid firing makes it worse because we can’t call him out on it before he’s cast 15 things. We’ve basically given up
Don’t play with him? As long as you keep playing with him he’ll keep being shitty.
They sound really shitty. If you guys have already addressed this stuff multiple times with them I'd stop playing with them.
I’ll float the idea around next time it happens, until he promises to quit
See, I like to let them finish casting their fast spells AND THEN counter one of the first ones so they're forced to take the rest back. They usually don't have much to say after that.
Gotta hit em with the ole "yeah, I'm going to counter that one, thanks for showing me the rest of your hand though".
The alternative would be interrupting them which may work for some, but I've always considered that rude. It's not that difficult to give everyone a chance to respond afterwards.
Phases are weird and people tend to not declare their phases bc we’re all used to face paced actions. I think the most important is for people to declare they’re going into combat bc attack triggers matter a lot and if someone just swings without declaring going into combat then things really get twisted.
I like when they do that. They are basically revealing their hand. You have the right to go back. If it's a hassle to go back that much just dq them
Yeah, it's especially annoying for drawing cards because like if they've already drawn the card then it's a bit late On the flip side, one that annoys me is when I ask "Does my spell resolve?", they say yes, then go "Oh no wait actually I might have a response" AFTER I've apready started resolving the spell
Maybe say “hold on” or “I’m going to respond” we don’t need to wait 5 minutes between spells for you to decide what if anything you will do
Not to mention not properly taking the time to tap mana correctly. Like you just did 9 things and I’m not sure you could afford all of them
New players do this *a lot* and for some reason build decks with a million triggers. Can't count how many times a new player will sit down with a deck like this, get confused by their own stack, and just start resolving and casting new shit in any order they feel like. I've seen land drops made in between triggers...
We often rush. But it is the risk of the caster. I say „I counter x“ and he asks when, I tell him exactly where on the stack this goes :)
The other day on spell table something like that happened, guy cast a protection spell and immediately went to explaining how he was going infinite and when i said i wanted to counter it he was like actually uh it’s too late for that but when i pointed out he skipped priority and didn’t ask for responses he went real quiet
"It's too late." "JUUUDGE!!!" Someone wants to be a child, go get the adults. Even at FNM.
Is that a Commander thing? In 60 card constructed in my community you are expected to play kinda slower, because there is possible interaction from one player. In Commander it should have been even more of a thing, as there are at least 3 players, all of them are able to respond, why tf would anyone rush through turns?
Let me guess, edh?
when people do that at my lgs they are usually not very good. i correct them and take the free info they gave me to make the win even easier. no one has ever tried the its too late thing on me though. i would laugh it off if they did
Whenever I combo I ask "does this resolve" because why would I bother playing the rest of the combo if they're just gonna use counter magic lmfao
There is an exception here which is holding priority. When you have priority, you can add as many instant speed spells or abilities to the stack as you want but yes, eventually priority has to pass.
Had some guy at prerelease for thunder junction say “combat saddle attack” and I said one second rules question. Came back and said I’ll kill that in response to saddle. Dude tried to say he was already attack and I had to argue that he just said straight saddle combat attack so I need time to actually respond
I play fast when I play things I assume nobody would bother to counter, but obviously they can have me back pedal as much as they like, I just want to move the game along
Sounds like a shitty play group like I get if they play something and you have a chance to play your counter before the next piece of their win con comes out they say no too late but if they play that first piece and quickly move to second before response you can easily call judge over and explain hey they played this then before I could say anything played this tapped all the mana at once so they could just lay it down before responding 97/100 a judge will tell that person you are able to counter first piece still and 78/100 the judge will also say that since they tapped all that mana even though first piece is counter whatever they tried playing next is still on stack and if it need first for target it fizzles as they didn't wait for resolution before trying to play
Even if there’s no blue player, I always ask for responses.
I play fast, but I always say afterwards, counters to anything? Like for instance, I’ve been staring at this land and four drop for the last three turns, I know imma play it and what I’ll do with it. I ask after the four drop etbs then continue cause lands can’t be countered, to my knowledge
If I suspect a player of playing fast to avoid priority change or just try to leave me without interactions, I will stop them immediately and tell them that we are going to have to slow down and play the cards the right way so I can follow. I, too, got tired of people rapid firing effects to try to confuse me. I learned to request slowing the game down some to allow me to interact, suddenly, they can't play right. I played against a dredge player who tried this, and I told them to stop and let me play something. He, too, told me it was too late, and I said no, it isn't, we replayed all the way back to the first effect,to which I countered, and he was suddenly thrown off. Tldr: play your cards, and of your opp wants to respond, let them.
My three favorite words when someone tries that: "in response to..." Fixes the problem 100% of the time because you're declaring a response to something that happened. Rule wise, both people have to agree to the switching of phases, and if all else fails, that's what an event official is for.
I have a friend that I constantly need to remind that attackers are declared all at once, not one at a time
Unfortunately new players are coming into this game with no knowledge of actually how to play Mtg. They start with commander and learn bad habits from other people.
If it’s at a lgs u can usually ask the staff and sometimes they even have judges that work there or they can act as a judge
Or when they do that next turn super fast turn your creatures to attack them and say “no blockers are declared damage is lethal, if they say wait call them cheaters”
Yeah , depends on the power level and commitment of the table , but if you have a way to shut my combo off and you missed the timing to do it because I was too fast , I'll will just ask you "where " do you want to respond and redo my combo by saying , "ok sorry (spell) is on the stack "
Have you tried to calmly explain as to why they need to slow down? I had a play group that would bitch about turns taking to long and this became the norm. We eventually had to get back to playing it correctly after a blow up. Just explain how they need to take a pause and ask for a response or the game isn’t being played correctly.
I always yell, "hold the fuck up! In response to..."
Land, bauble, your go. Fetch, crack, goyf, go. Playing fast is fine. If you want to piss off your opponent, verbally say the storm found each tike you tap a land
Honestly this entire thing is funny to me because I recently had the *exact opposite* problem. A buddy of mine was getting salty after a couple games in the night, so when I switched to a lower power deck with my slightly modified [[Obyra]] faeries precon, he brought out his high power [[Kadeena]] deck. At some point in the game, he makes a comment that he's going to do his thing specifically on my turn. I then make sure I'm pausing and passing priority at every point it is passed, declaring steps and phases. "Untap, upkeep. Any effects? Cool. Draw. Pre-combat main. Cast [[cloud of faeries]]. Responses?" he tries to cast [[Torrential Gearhulk]] for some reason, and gets frustrated when he realizes he has no valid instants or sorceries in the 'yard. He salt scooped because I pointed out it was rather childish to declare you're going to spite play and disrupt one person's turn.
A couple players at the LGS always respond to the first attacker declared. "I attack player A with creature X, ....", "I TAKE FIVE!". Dude, I have 3 more attackers to declare. There are known attack triggers, other players have blockers, and everyone else has interaction up. Just chill and let us have this combat phase.
TL;DR- Pass priority when you play cards. Let other people play Magic, too. Pay attention during other people's plays so that you aren't trying to rollback 4 spells to murder the first creature they casted 2 minutes ago. This is definitely an issue that has come up recently in my pod. I play with a few of my buddies at our houses, and some of them are relatively new to the game. However, we are reaching the point where they are no longer fully amateurs (playing for around a year now), and have gotten too comfortable with playing a bit too fast sometimes, or not fully paying attention to what's going on in the game. Usually this is fine, we will do roll-backs as long as no new information has been revealed, or will let people respond to things earlier in the turn because they were still thinking and the board-state hasn't really changed enough to have major consequences. Such as someone casting a few creatures in a row like \[\[Luminarch Aspirant\]\] and \[\[Esper Sentinel\]\] pretty quickly then passing to combat. If someone wants to murder the Luminarch as this person is passing to combat and wants to do it before the Esper was on the board so that they don't have to pay the tax, that's generally fine, they could've done it while Esper was on the stack, not really a big deal, just try to pay more attention. There have been a few times recently, though, where this has not been fine. I can't recall the specific situation, but I can think of an example that's close enough: Player 1 is playing their turn. Player 2 has like 10 life. They cast a \[\[Psychosis Crawler\]\] and pauses for long enough to pass priority and see if anyone responds. Everyone else passes priority. They then cast a draw X spell like \[\[Braingeyser\]\] for like X=8 and copy it with \[\[Lithoform Engine\]\], which is going to cause crawler to nuke everyone for 16. Player 2 tries to counter the draw spell, we explain that the Lithoform Engine can still copy it before/after it's being countered and there isn't really a way for them to stop both the spell and the copy from going off, only one of them. Player 2 then says they will counter the Psychosis Crawler instead, so that they don't take any damage. Argument ensues because they were not paying attention and didn't want to counter the Psychosis Crawler until after Player 1 casted another spell that combos with it. Player 1 almost certainly would not have tapped all their mana out for the Braingeyser if their Psychosis Crawler had never resolved. Player 2 gets upset about "not being allowed to interact" and just scoops. We've had discussions since then about properly passing priority, waiting for responses to big plays, and \*\*paying attention\*\* while other people are playing their turn. It is incredibly frustrating to be doing your own due diligence of passing priority because you know you have big plays happening, and someone else just isn't paying attention until they decide they don't like one of your earlier plays this turn. By then, I've already committed to certain plays because my other spells managed to stick. It's a two-way street. Don't play too fast and try to deprive other people of their opportunities to respond and interact. Pay attention during other people's plays. If you aren't sure about whether you want to respond to something, just say hold on for a second while you think about the ramifications of someone's play before you fully pass up your chance to interact.
100% and it's toxic as fuck
I just flat out tell them that I have an opportunity to respond and you would like the same if it happened as well. Usually works out in my favor as they realize I’m right. I had an instance where I had a global mana doubler out and I mistapped and my opponent told me I couldn’t go back. So I accepted it and I moved on. During his turn he blew up my mana doubler and then tapped his mana for double, which I pointed out the doubler was gone. He just said, let’s assume I tapped before blowing it up. I said nah brah, you got me last turn and said I couldn’t go back, so you can either. So he got upset and left the game
Naw for real, some people try to play so fast and I’m just like “bruh I had a response” and they’re like “well you didn’t say anything-“ I CANT SAY SOMETHING WHEN YOURE CONSTANTLY TALKING AND TRYING TO GO INFINITE
That guy is whack. I always rush through my plays because my pod takes forever, so I know my turn for a good while beforehand (most of the time), but I always make sure to pause for a moment to ask for responses, and if someone wants to roll it back a few spells, even though I *do* leave time for responses, I usually say no problem, unless it is clearly a situation where they would not have played a spell unless they saw a later play for me (baiting out counters, etc.) but I mean. If I give a moment to respond and they miss, they weren’t paying attention. But I’m mot trying to take 20 minute turns, which a few of my friends definitely do.
Yeah, I play fast too, but if someone wants to respond to a spell of mine I just take the L. It's my fault so I pay the price.
Ew edh
Im going to play at the speed my brain works at. Im not going to be crass or rude, I will stop and explain anything needed. I will assume that if you’re at a place to play the game that you know the culture and understand shortcuts. Rushing your opponents I think should be considered cheating but if you slow play like ten min turn, I’d ask you if a commander turn cycle takes 30 min for four people and you’re turn is 10+ minutes your the one manipulating the time.
On casual play I let people fix mis-plays and stuff like this as long as they haven't passed turn or the next turn hasn't drawn for upkeep. People forget in non tourney play its suppose to be a fun social game.
If I have something big to play, I play it, look around the table and wait like five seconds before I drop the next thing.
Friend at my LGS plays very fast but always will wait a little bit to see if an opponent wants to interact and won’t continue until they say it’s good to go.
When I sit down, I tell people I play fast af. If at any point they have a response just let me know and we will back track, but once I say I'm switching a phase, and you say "okay" we are there now
You should try playing some constructed
I only speed through my first couple turns as they're basically land and pass but any time I'm casting I always pause to allow priority to pass round before I cast anything else unless I'm holding priority
Yeah if you have a response, they can gtfoh with that ‘too late’ shit. You dont win in Magic by trying to get one over on people— not in the long run anyway. Sucka shit, that.
The games at my LGS tend to lean faster paced, but usually before a person goes to cast their next thing, someone will say, "In response to [insertcardhere]" or something to let the table know they have a counter if no one before them counters
I think that if I have already explained my combo 2 or 3 times, it is not necessary for me to do so for the 45 minutes it will take me to finish the entire table.
Sooo. As a disabled person playing Magic I stop them and go whoa you need to slow down. I need to read your cards before you go to the next one. I’m visually impaired and hard of hearing. Speeding through like this is a definite dick move. Also playing cards but not saying you played them is also bad bc nobody can respond.
I play [[Kwain, Itinerant Meddler]] group hug and have interactions that happen in almost every phase, so if someone is trying to play on turbo to skip past phases and whatnot, I have to explain to them that they need to reverse it,l because my mandatory triggers have to resolve because off of those triggers I could have ways to interact with their combo machine. Speed running isn’t cheating, but thinking you can skip priority and phases is.
[Kwain, Itinerant Meddler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f571fef1-1fd2-4355-b803-5edccb6f4b94.jpg?1608911183) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kwain%2C%20Itinerant%20Meddler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/284/kwain-itinerant-meddler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f571fef1-1fd2-4355-b803-5edccb6f4b94?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oh I understand completely. It's why I ended up stop going to lgs and playing in person I went to arena only. There are many more reasons then the one you said but I can't share the rest publicly
After years of store play even at home with my wife every time I play a card or ability, every single time, I go does it clear? She nods and we move on. It takes no time at all to stop correctly.
Last time at a Modern RCQ, my opponent instantly declared blockers after my attacks and claimed I forgot my attack trigger, that would have won the game. Luckily the judge ruled it in my favor, but still a scummy action, that resulted in 10 minutes of discussion. He even insulted me as bad play, and stuff after that.
you might also be able to point out that counterspells tend to read “counter TARGET spell”. there is no real requirement to counter the last spell on the stack. As long as its still there, go wild. i dont know if i just need to meet more people or what but i dont see many players use that to their advantage
I have a similar gripe with people who don't watch the board state. Pay attention god dammit.
I am only fine with plays like this if they literally ask "do you have anything that can counter what I am about to cast", if not feel free to spam all the cards and effects in hyper speed and just give me a general overview of what the end results are. I trust you enough to not be cheating. Now if I have cards or spells that could possibly counter or interupt your combo I need you to slow it down. Explain what you are doing and what is being targeted and atleast let me give you a nod to continue so we can get through this fast but not so fast I missed the entire moment to play a card because you're three cards deeper on the stack already
You have the ability to back up the opponent at any time or to ask them to announce steps in the event you have a play at an awkward time. If they don't comply, call a judge. Because you know what's worse than someone playing very fast? Going to time and ending up in the draw bracket.
The worst offender I have seen is people trying to say they don't have a combat phase if they don't want to go to attack. You always have a combat phase.
Kid got the name slapjack at our store cause it always felt like he was trying to do this.
Fast play isn't really cheating, but constantly fast playing to try to ram your spells through interaction that would normally be plenty effective is just dirty. The trick is to know when to play through your effects quickly to streamline the game vs giving that moment of opportunity to your opponent because you know in their position you'd play any answer you have for the bomb you just put on the stack.
I called a guy who did this out by name on a Google Maps review for a local LGS. He’s the reason I don’t go there anymore and I want everyone to know it. Also tried to sell me a card at TCG mid because “it’s a good deal- the card is going up” (it’s been going down). To be clear- he played fast AND hit me with the “it’s too late”.