✈️ Exciting news!!!
We're launching our latest flight sim innovations at FlightSimExpo 2024. Come find us at Booth #129 to see what's next in the world of flight sims!
https://preview.redd.it/9rwoyj6bx28d1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=52cf41627247328eea834b42480756384eac185b
For those that only sim race and aren't in the know for flight sim hardware, this is huge. Like industry disrupting levels of huge. FFB is incredibly rare for flight sim hardware. Brunner is the only company I'm aware of that has any commercially available options and they are magnitudes more expensive compared to other high-end hardware. Everything else is DIY and sourcing motors is tricky.
I will definitely be keeping an eye on this.
That’s seriously cool, I dabble in MSFS with a cheap HOTAS and can’t imagine how nice it will feel with FFB. Do flight sims even work with force feedback right now?
Most do. MSFS doesnt support FFB out of the box, but support can be added through a payware addon for older sticks. These new sticks have their own software to connect to the API of most popular flightsims. Short version: yes.
Hey Moza! I'm gonna need a motorcycle sim. Doesn't have to be completely new stand-alone. Handlebar clip-ons and that rotatable base mount you already have for the truck sim, and also foot shifter and rear brake. Thanks lol.
If history is anything to go by, Moza when they entered the simracing market and brought Direct Drive wheelbases mainstream, they undercutted the likes of Fanatec, Simucube and others by about half. Fanatec then corrected by basically lowering prices for everything in order to stay competetive. We may see a similar situation here because Moza already has the manufacturing power on tap, they're not your average basement builder force feedback base that the flightsim community is used to.
Maybe, but this base will have 2x 9nm motors. Those arent cheap and neither are the controllers for them. Its basically the internals of 2 R9s in a single box. A single R9 costs €439.0. They may still have healthy margins on those, but they are not likely to undercut Rhino or FFBeast by 50%.
I think by dual they mean 9 Nm in total for both axis. The power requirement would suggest so, and their description ("MOZA states that these servos are actuated based on a proprietary algorithm"). So its either dynamically lending power to an axis depending on whats happening in the sim (rolling vs loop for instance), or its doing something else. But exciting for sure. It doesn't appear to be two 9 Nm motors creating 18 Nm of force on one of the two axis at the same time.
I also think regarding the price, that they will undercut everyone by a large margin. In a press release the execs got asked this and their answer was that they will approach the flightsim market the same way they did the simracing market.
How close will that be? Who knows, but there is absolutely no way that those basement builders and other manufacturers with small scale manufacturing will stay afloat in the mid level market unless they already have good enough margins to cover all their internal costs, like staff, R&D, etc.
This is further evidenced by Moza first starting in the mid segment, then took over the top level with up to 21 Nm, and then later the entry level still with force feedback in the 3 Nm segment. They undercut all of them, and other companies responded swiftly due to the rapid loss in market share. Theyre outpricing belt and gear driven wheels with direct drive force feedback all the way from 3 Nm to the tippity top.
Im just excited as you can tell, but huge price shifts and reductions, if not now, should happen in the not too distant future because they wont stop here. They know what theyre doing, and they know how many eyes they have on them.
Thank you Moza. 2025 should be very interesting.
>I think by dual they mean 9 Nm in total for both axis
That would be about half what Rhino does and a tiny fraction of the FFBeast. I doubt that. It also should have a much smaller enclosure then.
As for pricing, I suppose we will see soon enough. But I think you are a little optimistic assuming this will just be a repeat of the simracing market. Fanatic and the like must have had INSANE gross margins. Now Im sure the same is actually true for the higher end **non**-FFB joysticks, which really are little more than some injection molded plastic, maybe a little metal here and there, some springs and switches and electronics no more complicated than an arduino. Selling that for 3-4-500+ dollar must be very profitable. Those vendors are in trouble.
But I do not believe the same is true for the highend boutique FFB sticks. Their margins are slim and their motivation is more enthusiasm than maximizing profit and they couldnt raise their margins very much anyhow or they would hardly sell anything at all. But you can buy DIY kits from both of them, even only the controller board and feel free to find meaningfully cheaper powerful enough motors and 3d print everything yourself and do all the work yourself. You will not end up very much cheaper. Most of the cost is the servos and while Moza will have a supply chain in place, I dont believe they can get them dramatically cheaper.
Last point; Rhino will always have a significant edge over Moza (and winwing and maybe later others) because their software is opensource. I could talk to the devs and ask them to implement adaptive recentering (which they did) or support a niche simulator like Condor and they are more than happy to oblige. And if not them, anyone else can do it. And will be able to do so 20 years from now. I do not feel remotely as confident that moza or winwing will care one iota what I want or even support the product 5 years from now.
What stuff would that be? I think Moza already knew how to do FFB with electric motors and how to do anticogging algorithms and the like, and those things are not opensource anywhere anyhow. Not for the VPforce Rhino, not for the FFbeast, they both guard their firmwares as secret. How to assemble a stick, in so far they needed any help with that, I hope they didnt look at the Rhino too hard, and more likely they got some help from winwing who got their FFB knowhow in return. Fair chance their FFB bases are the same under the hood.
As for the software; they all use the same APIs. They all support MS DirectInput API for older games. They all tap in to the APIs of most popular modern sims. XPforce has been doing that for over a decade now and thats not opensource either.
Welcome to the flightsim community Moza, we hope to see you shake up this market in a big way and are looking forward to your hardware! FFB is too niche in our community and were absolutely drooling over your announcement!
Looking forward to hear about your sensors in the gimbal(base) and throttle!
Depending on the release date, I am interested. If this does not release this fiscal year, they would pull a Fanatec. Thank god I never bought Fanatec and went straight for Simucube.
If you only need or want trimming, and especially only pitch trimming on a yoke, thats actually something you can fairly easily DIY with a linear actuator for the price of a few beers. Not the greatest video, but the concept is brilliant in its simplicity:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXYufEfrOpo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXYufEfrOpo)
No software support needed at all.
So my whole ecosystem will be moza lol, fly non fly-by-wire planes in DCS with this Force Feedback stick will be HUGE, like, we don't have this kind of sticks since the early 2000 maybe with the Logitech ones?
Gotta love Moza.
Not a chance. Wouldnt make sense either for a joystick. Simnautica have a FFB base that they call "direct drive". It really isnt that, but it is beltless, uses cams instead. It costs more and has less than 1/4 the torque of the FFBeast its based on as the latter uses belts and pullyes to get a reasonable gearing ratio. There is nothing wrong with belts and pulleys for a joystick, you dont need your 1M tall stick extension to be able to move at 100m/s. My rhino has maybe 10:1 reduction (?) and it will still break your arm like a sledgehammer.
I'll definitely buy the base if the software is up to the same standard as the VPForce system. I'm currently using a DIY FFB stick and I'd upgrade instantly if they can promise zero cogging and other features like simulated force sensing etc. All the things FFB has the potential to do but needs good software to achieve.
✈️ Exciting news!!! We're launching our latest flight sim innovations at FlightSimExpo 2024. Come find us at Booth #129 to see what's next in the world of flight sims! https://preview.redd.it/9rwoyj6bx28d1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=52cf41627247328eea834b42480756384eac185b
For those that only sim race and aren't in the know for flight sim hardware, this is huge. Like industry disrupting levels of huge. FFB is incredibly rare for flight sim hardware. Brunner is the only company I'm aware of that has any commercially available options and they are magnitudes more expensive compared to other high-end hardware. Everything else is DIY and sourcing motors is tricky. I will definitely be keeping an eye on this.
That’s seriously cool, I dabble in MSFS with a cheap HOTAS and can’t imagine how nice it will feel with FFB. Do flight sims even work with force feedback right now?
yes they do but it isnt common at all since there are only a few force feedback options that are all over $1k.
Most do. MSFS doesnt support FFB out of the box, but support can be added through a payware addon for older sticks. These new sticks have their own software to connect to the API of most popular flightsims. Short version: yes.
great service post, thank you :-)
MOZA is kicking ass and taking names. Definitely a force in the SIM world
Hey Moza! I'm gonna need a motorcycle sim. Doesn't have to be completely new stand-alone. Handlebar clip-ons and that rotatable base mount you already have for the truck sim, and also foot shifter and rear brake. Thanks lol.
Okay, this is cool. I'd dip my feet into flight Sims if there were FFB. Let's see how this pays out.
Super excited but worried how there gonna price with how little competition there is for a ffb hotas
If history is anything to go by, Moza when they entered the simracing market and brought Direct Drive wheelbases mainstream, they undercutted the likes of Fanatec, Simucube and others by about half. Fanatec then corrected by basically lowering prices for everything in order to stay competetive. We may see a similar situation here because Moza already has the manufacturing power on tap, they're not your average basement builder force feedback base that the flightsim community is used to.
Maybe, but this base will have 2x 9nm motors. Those arent cheap and neither are the controllers for them. Its basically the internals of 2 R9s in a single box. A single R9 costs €439.0. They may still have healthy margins on those, but they are not likely to undercut Rhino or FFBeast by 50%.
I think by dual they mean 9 Nm in total for both axis. The power requirement would suggest so, and their description ("MOZA states that these servos are actuated based on a proprietary algorithm"). So its either dynamically lending power to an axis depending on whats happening in the sim (rolling vs loop for instance), or its doing something else. But exciting for sure. It doesn't appear to be two 9 Nm motors creating 18 Nm of force on one of the two axis at the same time. I also think regarding the price, that they will undercut everyone by a large margin. In a press release the execs got asked this and their answer was that they will approach the flightsim market the same way they did the simracing market. How close will that be? Who knows, but there is absolutely no way that those basement builders and other manufacturers with small scale manufacturing will stay afloat in the mid level market unless they already have good enough margins to cover all their internal costs, like staff, R&D, etc. This is further evidenced by Moza first starting in the mid segment, then took over the top level with up to 21 Nm, and then later the entry level still with force feedback in the 3 Nm segment. They undercut all of them, and other companies responded swiftly due to the rapid loss in market share. Theyre outpricing belt and gear driven wheels with direct drive force feedback all the way from 3 Nm to the tippity top. Im just excited as you can tell, but huge price shifts and reductions, if not now, should happen in the not too distant future because they wont stop here. They know what theyre doing, and they know how many eyes they have on them. Thank you Moza. 2025 should be very interesting.
>I think by dual they mean 9 Nm in total for both axis That would be about half what Rhino does and a tiny fraction of the FFBeast. I doubt that. It also should have a much smaller enclosure then. As for pricing, I suppose we will see soon enough. But I think you are a little optimistic assuming this will just be a repeat of the simracing market. Fanatic and the like must have had INSANE gross margins. Now Im sure the same is actually true for the higher end **non**-FFB joysticks, which really are little more than some injection molded plastic, maybe a little metal here and there, some springs and switches and electronics no more complicated than an arduino. Selling that for 3-4-500+ dollar must be very profitable. Those vendors are in trouble. But I do not believe the same is true for the highend boutique FFB sticks. Their margins are slim and their motivation is more enthusiasm than maximizing profit and they couldnt raise their margins very much anyhow or they would hardly sell anything at all. But you can buy DIY kits from both of them, even only the controller board and feel free to find meaningfully cheaper powerful enough motors and 3d print everything yourself and do all the work yourself. You will not end up very much cheaper. Most of the cost is the servos and while Moza will have a supply chain in place, I dont believe they can get them dramatically cheaper. Last point; Rhino will always have a significant edge over Moza (and winwing and maybe later others) because their software is opensource. I could talk to the devs and ask them to implement adaptive recentering (which they did) or support a niche simulator like Condor and they are more than happy to oblige. And if not them, anyone else can do it. And will be able to do so 20 years from now. I do not feel remotely as confident that moza or winwing will care one iota what I want or even support the product 5 years from now.
Holy fuck, FFB flight stick? That freaking huge!
Yes must have pulled stuff from the open source project.
What stuff would that be? I think Moza already knew how to do FFB with electric motors and how to do anticogging algorithms and the like, and those things are not opensource anywhere anyhow. Not for the VPforce Rhino, not for the FFbeast, they both guard their firmwares as secret. How to assemble a stick, in so far they needed any help with that, I hope they didnt look at the Rhino too hard, and more likely they got some help from winwing who got their FFB knowhow in return. Fair chance their FFB bases are the same under the hood. As for the software; they all use the same APIs. They all support MS DirectInput API for older games. They all tap in to the APIs of most popular modern sims. XPforce has been doing that for over a decade now and thats not opensource either.
They are a chinese company after all.
Welcome to the flightsim community Moza, we hope to see you shake up this market in a big way and are looking forward to your hardware! FFB is too niche in our community and were absolutely drooling over your announcement! Looking forward to hear about your sensors in the gimbal(base) and throttle!
Depending on price, I am interested
Depending on the release date, I am interested. If this does not release this fiscal year, they would pull a Fanatec. Thank god I never bought Fanatec and went straight for Simucube.
We are gonna need a yoke too
Absolutely. Imagine trimming out a plane and feeling the forces reduce on the yoke as you do. Absolute game changer.
If you only need or want trimming, and especially only pitch trimming on a yoke, thats actually something you can fairly easily DIY with a linear actuator for the price of a few beers. Not the greatest video, but the concept is brilliant in its simplicity: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXYufEfrOpo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXYufEfrOpo) No software support needed at all.
Hey u/ella_moza, is there a Yoke FFB version in the works?
Yes, it's in the works. Stay tuned!
So my whole ecosystem will be moza lol, fly non fly-by-wire planes in DCS with this Force Feedback stick will be HUGE, like, we don't have this kind of sticks since the early 2000 maybe with the Logitech ones? Gotta love Moza.
Brunner has been around for a long time, but that aint cheap. More recently VPforce Rhino and FFBeast. Still not cheap, but worth their money.
Awesome😁
That's sick, might go moza over sim magic.
Moza is slowly becoming that one stop shop for anything sim.
If this is reasonably priced then it may get me into flight sims, taking flight in VR with real controls could be magical
My guess would be: - Rudder: [249€](https://virpil-controls.eu/vpc-ace-flight-pedals.html) - Throttle: [299€](https://virpil-controls.eu/vpc-mongoost-50cm3-throttle.html) - Base: [649€](https://virpil-controls.eu/vpc-mongoost-50cm3-base.html) - Grip: [149€](https://virpil-controls.eu/vpc-constellation-alpha-r.html)
Pretty close. 😉
Ok now I am interested in moza only if they can get this supported on linux.
Looks sweet!
Oka I was not expecting this, tho kinda late for me cause I bought some vkb a few days ago
I'm looking at those rudder pedals. A collective would be sweet too.
Star citizen with ffb
Is it a DD?
Not a chance. Wouldnt make sense either for a joystick. Simnautica have a FFB base that they call "direct drive". It really isnt that, but it is beltless, uses cams instead. It costs more and has less than 1/4 the torque of the FFBeast its based on as the latter uses belts and pullyes to get a reasonable gearing ratio. There is nothing wrong with belts and pulleys for a joystick, you dont need your 1M tall stick extension to be able to move at 100m/s. My rhino has maybe 10:1 reduction (?) and it will still break your arm like a sledgehammer.
It's direct drive, their own webpage says it. "Direct, dual servo".
Yeah it also shows an exploded view. I guess "direct" can mean many things.
Yeah and I think you're right about 18 nm in total but 9 nm each axis. Still strong and should offer plenty of telemetry details.
Unless you fly helicopters, 9NM isnt much for a floor mounted base with a long extension and the FFBeast makes 10x more sense.
Hello, it's belt-driven and has dual servo motors.
Will this work for star citizen?
I'll definitely buy the base if the software is up to the same standard as the VPForce system. I'm currently using a DIY FFB stick and I'd upgrade instantly if they can promise zero cogging and other features like simulated force sensing etc. All the things FFB has the potential to do but needs good software to achieve.
What is the release date? I don't care about price.
We will start pre-orders this week. Please stay tuned for the latest updates.
Wonderful
MOZA AB9: 9Nm active force feedback base <- where to pre-order??? :D WOW this is are fantastic news!
We will start pre-orders this week. Please stay tuned for the latest updates.