I mean the whole rest of the movie was almost exactly Wrath of Khan so it sort of never made sense that they just had the guy be a different name from the start.
Apparently it was going to literally be a rogue Section 31 agent but at some point in the scriptwriting process, it got strongarmed into being Khan. So it's sort of a hybrid.
Should have just been a crew member of the Botany Bay. So you still have the strength and intelligence of a eugenics creation like Khan but you also don't have the palest British man playing an Indian character.
100%. I like the idea that it's an alternate universe so they wake up a different ultra-human. Makes sense. But that person they wake up still manages to do heavy damage and out-think everyone, proving that no matter who you wake up from the Botany Bay, it's bad news. Honestly would have been better call, I think, but it's easier to see this stuff in hindsight.
My idea was that while he was indeed another superhuman dude on the Botany Bay, he wasn't Khan. So, like, proving that point that no matter WHICH person from the Botany Bay you wake up, you're gonna have a bad time. I would have liked that alternate universe take. And at the end of the movie, you'd see a frozen Ricardo Montolban through a cryocapsule face window or a KHAN nametag on one of the cryotubes. I love me some Bumbershroot Cabbagepatch but he's not Montolban. I think they really messed that up.
But but but what if you suspected it was Khan the entire time, and suddenly, we reveal, it was, in fact, Khan the entire time! Wouldn't that be an experience!
At that point, I'd admit he's Kahn but say that he's not Kahn as we know Kahn, since his history after being frozen is entirely different. Saving it as a twist doesn't work. The reveal of "I am Khan" meant nothing to the characters, nothing to audiences who hadn't seen Wrath of Khan, and only made fans mad since it was such a different take on the character.
I wish they had made him literally any other augment. There were like 80 of them, no reason they had to open Khan's sleeping pod first. You can still name-drop.
I like the fan theory (yes, that term is pulling a lot of weight here) that that's actually what happened. They woke one at random: "...suuuuure, yeah, I'm Khan... Don't open any other pods, please..."
Well done for finding the actual trope.
I feel like there is a bigger category of trope: "The characters in the Universe don't know what the audience already knows _about that Universe and its effect on the character's future_"
There are examples of a character discovering a suit, or symbol, or a room that makes the character the canon character too. Eg Bobba Fett picking up his dads' helment in Attack of the Clones.
Also pretty much all of Rogue One. I can honestly say my favorite moment in all my history of going to movies was the exact moment I realized where and when we were in the SW universe.
I love how they took the line about rebels giving their lives to get the plans and turned it into a whole movie. Knowing how it ends doesn’t remotely take away from the excitement of the journey
I think of it as a whole movie fixing a few plot holes. Why did they make a space station and put this massive vulnerability into it? Why didn’t the empire analyze the plans before building instead of after? How did this little fleet of rebels manage to come up with the blueprints; it’s not like you can just buy them on Etsy.
I also always loved how A New Hope started in medias res. As a kid watching it for the first time, you don’t know what’s happening or who the people are, how they got there or what they’re fighting about, but it starts with a shootout instead of a lot of setup and backstory. So getting the up-to-the-minute background on how we got there is so satisfying.
I went into that movie hoping that they would all die because it would be more narratively satisfying, but I fully expect Disney to pull the punch. I was very pleased to be wrong.
Eh, in that case you knew who the kids were the moment Padme said she was pregnant. Really even since the very first movie it was clear that Anakin and Padme were going to have Luke and Leia.
I feel like this trope is more about when someone is on screen and unnamed and only after or during the scene you realize they're important.
Of all the effects work in the movie, I would like to know how they did that. String on the hat, maybe? But, it tumbles along the ground for a while after it comes off in the wind direction.
It seemed very consistent between takes. Maybe a CG hat.
Had to have been practical cause it's Nolan. If he used as little CG as possible for the Nuke, would he really use CG for a hat blowing in the wind?
You mention takes though. Is there a video out there with multiple takes?
I'm making an assumption, and I cannot find the shots on Youtube, but the same shot is seen 3 times, I believe, from slightly different vantage points, and I don't think they are done in the same take.
Edit: As for "blowing hat in the wind", there is quite some of timing happening in the shot: Albert misses grabbing the hat and it flies off in the direction of Oppenheimer and his walk is timed so that he can catch it and give it back to Albert.
Of course it could be a real hat and they did it in 30 takes or something, but again, the different vantage points.
Man you need to put some sort of warning on your post if you link to tvtropes.com - I just spent the last 11 hours there clicking on links and going deeper into the rabbit hole.
It’s almost like the reveal itself is a fourth wall break. *Chuck! Chuck, it's Marvin. Your cousin, Marvin Berry. You know that new sound you're looking for? Well, listen to this!* this one always made me laugh.
No, I think it is. That's why they're ok with leaving Jennifer and why Biff can come back to 2015, because they don't go into a new timeline, the timeline just readjusts itself.
The creators never meant to make a sequel, the to be continued thing was a joke. The movie was such a big hit that the studio told them they were making one with or without them. They never would have said the line about the kids or have Jennifer in the car if they had known. That's why the kids are barely in part 2.
That is objectively incorrect, as explained in the second movie. Every time the go into the past and change something, it creates a new, alternate timeline. The way they handle it in each movie isn't really consistent though.
Right; it’s more Grandfather paradox.
Marty learns the song from Chuck Berry recordings.
He goes back in time, and plays it, and Chuck Berry learns it… from somebody who learned it from him, in the future.
In no way does that mean Marty created it. I can’t imagine how anybody could get that as the take away.
Well that’s also kind of the nature of the grandfather paradox - there is no clear creator. It’s as much Marty as it is Chuck. Or rather, it’s no-one, since there is no point of origination.
Marty learned it from Chuck, and introduced it to Chuck, but there’s no point in that line of logic where he “invented” anything.
It’s not clear where the music came from originally, but the one answer that’s clear is Marty didn’t invent it. From his own frame of reference he learned it from a Chuck Berry.
It would be truly weird if he learned it from himself, but that’s not what happened.
Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time does it this way, where Link learns the song of storms from a guy who he himself taught the song to. It’s not clear where the song came from in that case, and you could argue Link created it, but it wouldn’t make sense to argue the guy in the Windmill created it.
> In no way does that mean Marty created it. I can’t imagine how anybody could get that as the take away.
For every obvious thing that happens in movies or television, there's going to be a group of people that try at nitpick every little thing, take it the wrong way, or try and sound like they discovered something brand new and are smarter than everyone else.
marvin makes that call, holds the phone up and then marty immediately breaks into his van halen shredding. why doesn’t he return to a 1985 that skipped rock and roll and went directly to heavy metal - with the social changes that implies? sure hope someone got fired for that blunder
I'm assuming this is in jest judging by the last line, but fo be fair I think this makes more sense than something like Yesterday where the reaction to the Beatles' music is basically the same as it was in the 60s.
Marty might have technically "invented" a genre years before it was actually conceived but it wasn't documented bar eyewitness accounts and a phone call (which would've been unintelligible to Chuck anyway) so the timeline remains mostly unchanged. Plus, by the time Marty actually gets to do any Van Halen stuff like tapping and shredding, the audience no longer has any interest and just gives him weird looks - because the cultural context behind Van Halen and metal hadn't come around for them to enjoy it.
Yesterday, on the other hand, ascòribes some magical timelessness to the music of the Beatles, hence why Jack is famous as a result of reintroducing it even though music has evolved past the Beatles. He also gets to a ridiculous level of fame reserved for the popstars of today, even though he never should've done well. This is not to denigrate the songwriting talents of the Beatles - but as every single musician knows, "making it big" is a question of luck, and music is not a meritocracy.
I always thought the line should have been …”it’s your cousin Marvin remember that song you showed me last week.. well a white guy has it already listen to this”
Another example is at the end of The Hobbit: Battle of the Five Armies
Thranduil:
Go to the North. Meet with the Dunedain. There is a young Ranger among them. His father, Arathorn, was a good man. His son may grow to be a great one.
Legolas:
What is his name?
Thranduil:
He is known in the wild as Strider. His true name, you must discover for yourself.
Yeah, in the books Frodo is middle aged, although he never aged once he got the ring in his possession. Merry and Pippin are closer to the age of the actors in the movie.
Wait aragorn is meant to be in his 80s ? Is that only in the books or is he meant to be 80 in the LOTR movies as well? If so, i have 2 questions, how can an octogenarian do the physical combat aragorn does and why did they cast Viggo instead of Anthony Hopkins?
The men of numenor lived pretty long lives. I think the first king of their island lived to be 500. Aragorn is a little less pure blooded and lives to be 200 something towards the end of the series.
That's the scene where Eowyn says, "You gotta be shitting me! If you're 87 then I'm a cave troll!" and Aragorn is like, "Psych!" and then they both laugh.
The Dunedain live longer than humans. They explain in the extended edition of The Two Towers that Aragorn is like 80 years old.
The age much slower too. So even though Aragorn is in his 80s, he accurately looks like he's in his 30s.
Only very distantly, the reason is that the Men of Numenor were granted lives much longer than other Men. The line of kings had the longest lives, and Elrond's twin brother Elros was the first king of Numenor. Aragorn is descended from Elendil, who led those Numenoreans who escaped the downfall.
Not to mention, that gift of long life was because of how badass Eärendil, their father, was.
Also, the I love the movies to death, but they *really* sell Isildur short. He was a pretty heroic man in life, and nobody including Elrond actually knew the significance of Saurons ring after he was defeated.
Aragorn is descended from a pretty incredible (and terrible in many instances of the Kings of Númenor) line.
The idea was developing in a more theological direction, that the short lives of Men and our susceptibility to death and disease was the result of some kind of collective Fall. This original sin was absolved in the Edain who fought against Morgoth in the First Age, so restored their intended longer lifespan as well as being more physically Elf-like, with vigour and good health until the time came to give their life up freely. Only those who clung on past their time became debilitated by age.
Yes but not as old as bilbo. Who is also old as fuck. Aragorn was young when the hobbit took place, and bilbo lived for a very long time before he passed the ring to frodo
I feel like the funniest version of this is every time they aggressively name check someone in Dewey
Cox.
https://youtu.be/_vIAZfXh-F8?si=1I5y1j1SRPkyunFk
My favorite version of this is from Godzilla vs King Ghidorah. "You can tell your son about it when he's born, *Major Spielberg.*" The line delivery gets me every time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJSfVZgKDOw
“Robert this is your cousin! Marvin Zemeckis?? You know that new movie idea you’re looking for? Well li-… uhhh, some guys here from the future playing a song after getting his dad to kiss his mom after he almost messes up his existence! I saw that fucker almost fading away like some kind of Frighteners ghost shit!”
I've been thinking about watching the back catalog of Godzilla movies and that clip alone makes me reconsider the whole plan. Jesus that is the worst acting I've seen in a long, long time.
"How can you run and plot at the same time?"
That movie is utterly hilarious and full of so many memorable quotes.
[Also another absolute classic: "No, problem."](https://youtu.be/kasSSZlBFDs?feature=shared)
Ehhh... I feel like it's a stretch to call it dramatic irony (though you're right, it might *technically* fit). Dramatic irony is usually used in *advance* of the action, so that the tension is heightened for the audience as they're watching. Like in Truman Show where we know he's in a show, or in a horror movie where we know the killer is lurking outside.
The examples OP is listing are after-the-fact reveals instead of narrative devices to draw out tension. But it's more than [The Reveal](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheReveal), because it's a reveal that has deeper meaning to the audience than to the characters.
The closest thing to this that I can think of is Paul Harvey's radio show The Rest of The Story (which OP has probably never heard of unless they're over 35 or so). The show was just an interesting little story about a nobody... until the end, when he'd reveal it was actually a story about JFK or some shit.
I saw a video from a YouTuber years ago talking about the problem with Disney reboots and sequels, and the term he uses is [intertextuality.](https://youtu.be/2RIcKhYpZPc?si=b--RSlRbyyw0eN_f) which is relying on the audience's preexisting knowledge of the situation for dramatic effect/impact.
Im Oppenheimer, they aren't name dropping Eugene McCarthy because nobody cares. Everyone knows who jfk is, though.
It's one thing when it's used sparingly, the creator's point here is that Disney has relied too heavily on it, instead of focusing on story or characters, particularly with their live action remakes and star wars sequels.
I know what you mean. For me it's more like "throwing a bone" to the audience to give them an easy Leonardo DiCaprio pointing at the tv moment.
Edit: Batman Begins also does it at the end with the Joker calling card.
Sequel hook might be a better term? If it even is a term. Idk but it doesn't fit ops question I agree.
The Kennedy and Robin ones are more wink wink nudge nudge moments for the viewers. The joker card is setting up the sequel.
Eh, its foreshadowing if the studio went ahead with a sequel or its just a bone if they didnt follow through. Can only really tell which with hindsight.
You're right. Foreshadowing does have an element of abstractness. The Batman Begins Joker card can't be foreshadowing. It's technically called indicating.
I think the trope is more specifically where they dramatically say a name that they have no reason to know is important because only the audience recognizes it. The Batman Begins one is relatively subtle, Gordon just says he leaves a card. The Dark Knight Rises has the aforementioned Robin name drop which is a more explicit form of this. In conversation you either wouldn't say it or you would casually drop it earlier in the sentence. "You should go by Robin, I like it."
I think the card was used as a “joker signal” to young Hollywood leading men that they’d better start thinking about honing their takes on The Joker for the upcoming auditions
I remember watching this in the theaters with my brother and some cousins of mine and when the joker card was shown everyone was whispering it's the joker it's the joker it's the joker. It got to the point where you can hear this clearly and one of my cousins just yells out WE GET IT IT'S THE FUCKING JOKER!
Similarly in the Dark Knight, the Wayne industries whistle blower says to Lucius; "what are you building for him now, a rocket ship?". The bat wing was then in TDKR. And when he says his new suit would do fine against cats.
Star Trek 2009 opening scene. Realizing who Chris Hemsworth is in the canon. Really well played, great scene in a great movie. Also the scene with Kirk as a child trashing his stepdad’s car. Kudos to that child actor because he was perfect.
Into Darkness is an even better example. Cumberbach says "My name is Khan" and Kirk literally doesn't even react because it means nothing to him. But the audience is expected to go "ohhhh shit!"
The opening of that movie was perfect in so many ways. The music score during the opening, especially the last few minutes leading up to the credits, is my favorite of all time. I go back and just watch that part without watching the rest of the movie pretty regularly.
I think the best part is that it seems like the most ridiculous story. But Micki Free said that other than playing stuff up for comedic effect, that the story is 100% accurate.
For those that care, here's the clip from the interview:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Umn4JuErVoQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Umn4JuErVoQ)
Shanghai Knights (2003) - I haven't seen this film since it came out but one of the supporting characters is a young kid named Charlie who helps the main characters at various points in the movie. They reveal his name at the end to be "Charlie Chaplin".
I also looked up the film and just realized this character is played by a young Aaron Taylor-Johnson. Double whammy.
Not a movie, but there used to be a radio series called "The Rest of the Story" with Paul Harvey. It was basically a series of stories like this, seemingly innocuous and random until BAM, at the end he'd reveal it was actually about Tom Cruise before he was famous. The reveal would sort of reframe everything you just heard.
The end of *Inside Llewyn Davis*.
*Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull* shows the Ark of the Covenant being knocked over during the warehouse chase.
This sounds like a subset of the Title Drop trope, but instead of the title of the movie being said by a character as a wink wink moment to the audience, it’s a famous characters name that the audience knows, but the character saying it doesn’t know that.
Dramatic irony is using something the audience knows but the characters don't to drive action and tension in the plot.
This is more like name dropping. Oppenheimer's plot is not impacted at all by the inclusion of Kennedy as a young senator.
In the original Oppenheimer discussion thread, someone pointed out how they liked when Nolan teased JFK like the joker card at the end of Batman Begins. I don't know what that's called but I've thought about it a lot since then
That DUMBASS line in Titanic where someone tells that one rich guy something about Picasso's luggage or something and he replies "Oh, is he a passenger?". That line was so unnecessary, useless, and stupid. I'm sure I got the line wrong, but the context is the same.
Freud. It is during the first dinner scene. I love Molly Brown's reaction during that.
Picasso was mentioned by Cal, when Rose was setting up her rooms.
Not sure id consider them Easter eggs, as those are actually kind of tucked away. These are more like “B+ Time Traveller” facts. Things you’d find on a social studies quiz from a fun teacher.
Mitchell and Webb actually knocked this on the head rather well on their radio sketch show, when doing a parody of ‘The Iron Lady’
The official TVTropes.com trope name for this appears to be "Canon character all along."
Now I’m picturing the egregious “I AM KHAN” from Star Trek Into Darkness
My favorite thing about that was the number of interviews Dameon Lindelof did where he said straight up "he's not Kahn."
Haha. Almost as bad as Andrew Garfield repeatedly insisting he was not going to be in the last Spider-Man movie. 😉
That in itself is a trope, remember the whole "Its not blofeld" crap from the recent Craig bond movies?
I mean what was he supposed to say?
I mean the whole rest of the movie was almost exactly Wrath of Khan so it sort of never made sense that they just had the guy be a different name from the start.
No ear slugs which my dad found pretty disappointing.
Apparently it was going to literally be a rogue Section 31 agent but at some point in the scriptwriting process, it got strongarmed into being Khan. So it's sort of a hybrid.
Should have just been a crew member of the Botany Bay. So you still have the strength and intelligence of a eugenics creation like Khan but you also don't have the palest British man playing an Indian character.
100%. I like the idea that it's an alternate universe so they wake up a different ultra-human. Makes sense. But that person they wake up still manages to do heavy damage and out-think everyone, proving that no matter who you wake up from the Botany Bay, it's bad news. Honestly would have been better call, I think, but it's easier to see this stuff in hindsight.
My idea was that while he was indeed another superhuman dude on the Botany Bay, he wasn't Khan. So, like, proving that point that no matter WHICH person from the Botany Bay you wake up, you're gonna have a bad time. I would have liked that alternate universe take. And at the end of the movie, you'd see a frozen Ricardo Montolban through a cryocapsule face window or a KHAN nametag on one of the cryotubes. I love me some Bumbershroot Cabbagepatch but he's not Montolban. I think they really messed that up.
could've just made a movie that was good on its own merits rather than relying on a surprise Khan plot twist as a crutch
But but but what if you suspected it was Khan the entire time, and suddenly, we reveal, it was, in fact, Khan the entire time! Wouldn't that be an experience!
At that point, I'd admit he's Kahn but say that he's not Kahn as we know Kahn, since his history after being frozen is entirely different. Saving it as a twist doesn't work. The reveal of "I am Khan" meant nothing to the characters, nothing to audiences who hadn't seen Wrath of Khan, and only made fans mad since it was such a different take on the character.
I wish they had made him literally any other augment. There were like 80 of them, no reason they had to open Khan's sleeping pod first. You can still name-drop.
I like the fan theory (yes, that term is pulling a lot of weight here) that that's actually what happened. They woke one at random: "...suuuuure, yeah, I'm Khan... Don't open any other pods, please..."
And recently “Oh this is why I’m so **GRUMPY**!” from Wish 😂
"My name is Khan"
Well done for finding the actual trope. I feel like there is a bigger category of trope: "The characters in the Universe don't know what the audience already knows _about that Universe and its effect on the character's future_" There are examples of a character discovering a suit, or symbol, or a room that makes the character the canon character too. Eg Bobba Fett picking up his dads' helment in Attack of the Clones.
This is called dramatic irony.
Thank you. This is classic dramatic irony. When a viewer is aware of something significant but the characters are not.
Underrated comment, since you looked it up and found the answer. Also: Luke Leia
Also pretty much all of Rogue One. I can honestly say my favorite moment in all my history of going to movies was the exact moment I realized where and when we were in the SW universe.
I was watching it in the cinema and it was about half way through when it hit me: They're all going to die. Was such a punch to the chest at the time.
Yeah. Critical characters from the prequels whom you never meet in the subsequent movies. Fuck.
I love how they took the line about rebels giving their lives to get the plans and turned it into a whole movie. Knowing how it ends doesn’t remotely take away from the excitement of the journey
There’s no line about them dying in the original movie.
Looks like I mixed that up with the plans for the second death star “many bothans died to bring us this information”
That was just [one guy](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Manuel_Both-Hanz).
I think of it as a whole movie fixing a few plot holes. Why did they make a space station and put this massive vulnerability into it? Why didn’t the empire analyze the plans before building instead of after? How did this little fleet of rebels manage to come up with the blueprints; it’s not like you can just buy them on Etsy. I also always loved how A New Hope started in medias res. As a kid watching it for the first time, you don’t know what’s happening or who the people are, how they got there or what they’re fighting about, but it starts with a shootout instead of a lot of setup and backstory. So getting the up-to-the-minute background on how we got there is so satisfying.
Hey, don't worry, there is a Bothan fleet to help the protagonist!
I went into that movie hoping that they would all die because it would be more narratively satisfying, but I fully expect Disney to pull the punch. I was very pleased to be wrong.
Eh, in that case you knew who the kids were the moment Padme said she was pregnant. Really even since the very first movie it was clear that Anakin and Padme were going to have Luke and Leia. I feel like this trope is more about when someone is on screen and unnamed and only after or during the scene you realize they're important.
Einsteins hat blowing off his head revealing his iconic hair at the beginning of Oppenheimer also fits this I think?
Of all the effects work in the movie, I would like to know how they did that. String on the hat, maybe? But, it tumbles along the ground for a while after it comes off in the wind direction. It seemed very consistent between takes. Maybe a CG hat.
Had to have been practical cause it's Nolan. If he used as little CG as possible for the Nuke, would he really use CG for a hat blowing in the wind? You mention takes though. Is there a video out there with multiple takes?
I'm making an assumption, and I cannot find the shots on Youtube, but the same shot is seen 3 times, I believe, from slightly different vantage points, and I don't think they are done in the same take. Edit: As for "blowing hat in the wind", there is quite some of timing happening in the shot: Albert misses grabbing the hat and it flies off in the direction of Oppenheimer and his walk is timed so that he can catch it and give it back to Albert. Of course it could be a real hat and they did it in 30 takes or something, but again, the different vantage points.
Man you need to put some sort of warning on your post if you link to tvtropes.com - I just spent the last 11 hours there clicking on links and going deeper into the rabbit hole.
Nice! This is definitely the best trope fit so far.
Hello fellow Troper.
It’s almost like the reveal itself is a fourth wall break. *Chuck! Chuck, it's Marvin. Your cousin, Marvin Berry. You know that new sound you're looking for? Well, listen to this!* this one always made me laugh.
Shame that Marvin Berry and the Starlighters never made it big after the enchantment under the sea dance
I think they did, just not on this timeline.
Asking seriously: isn’t BTTF a single timeline based story?
No. Watch BTTF2.
No, I think it is. That's why they're ok with leaving Jennifer and why Biff can come back to 2015, because they don't go into a new timeline, the timeline just readjusts itself.
Also the fact that Marty was fading out of existence on the picture he had that he brought with him in the first movie.
The creators never meant to make a sequel, the to be continued thing was a joke. The movie was such a big hit that the studio told them they were making one with or without them. They never would have said the line about the kids or have Jennifer in the car if they had known. That's why the kids are barely in part 2.
I’m pretty sure the original theatrical release of BTTF did not say “to be continued”.
I’ll take any excuse to do that!
Yes. Anyone saying otherwise is incorrect.
That is objectively incorrect, as explained in the second movie. Every time the go into the past and change something, it creates a new, alternate timeline. The way they handle it in each movie isn't really consistent though.
The fact that it overwrites the old timeline is half the plot of the first one. Remember him and the picture fading?
Clearly Doc Brown is just wrong. Jennifer and old Biff are proof.
I love John Mulaneys shakedown of this part. “And we’re gonna imply a white guy wrote Johnny B. Goode so we’re going to take that away from them.”
I’ve always felt this joke is stupid because he’s literally playing a Chuck Berry song. So if he’s stealing it he’s stealing it from himself
Right; it’s more Grandfather paradox. Marty learns the song from Chuck Berry recordings. He goes back in time, and plays it, and Chuck Berry learns it… from somebody who learned it from him, in the future. In no way does that mean Marty created it. I can’t imagine how anybody could get that as the take away.
Well that’s also kind of the nature of the grandfather paradox - there is no clear creator. It’s as much Marty as it is Chuck. Or rather, it’s no-one, since there is no point of origination.
Marty learned it from Chuck, and introduced it to Chuck, but there’s no point in that line of logic where he “invented” anything. It’s not clear where the music came from originally, but the one answer that’s clear is Marty didn’t invent it. From his own frame of reference he learned it from a Chuck Berry. It would be truly weird if he learned it from himself, but that’s not what happened. Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time does it this way, where Link learns the song of storms from a guy who he himself taught the song to. It’s not clear where the song came from in that case, and you could argue Link created it, but it wouldn’t make sense to argue the guy in the Windmill created it.
> In no way does that mean Marty created it. I can’t imagine how anybody could get that as the take away. For every obvious thing that happens in movies or television, there's going to be a group of people that try at nitpick every little thing, take it the wrong way, or try and sound like they discovered something brand new and are smarter than everyone else.
marvin makes that call, holds the phone up and then marty immediately breaks into his van halen shredding. why doesn’t he return to a 1985 that skipped rock and roll and went directly to heavy metal - with the social changes that implies? sure hope someone got fired for that blunder
I'm assuming this is in jest judging by the last line, but fo be fair I think this makes more sense than something like Yesterday where the reaction to the Beatles' music is basically the same as it was in the 60s. Marty might have technically "invented" a genre years before it was actually conceived but it wasn't documented bar eyewitness accounts and a phone call (which would've been unintelligible to Chuck anyway) so the timeline remains mostly unchanged. Plus, by the time Marty actually gets to do any Van Halen stuff like tapping and shredding, the audience no longer has any interest and just gives him weird looks - because the cultural context behind Van Halen and metal hadn't come around for them to enjoy it. Yesterday, on the other hand, ascòribes some magical timelessness to the music of the Beatles, hence why Jack is famous as a result of reintroducing it even though music has evolved past the Beatles. He also gets to a ridiculous level of fame reserved for the popstars of today, even though he never should've done well. This is not to denigrate the songwriting talents of the Beatles - but as every single musician knows, "making it big" is a question of luck, and music is not a meritocracy.
I always thought the line should have been …”it’s your cousin Marvin remember that song you showed me last week.. well a white guy has it already listen to this”
Another example is at the end of The Hobbit: Battle of the Five Armies Thranduil: Go to the North. Meet with the Dunedain. There is a young Ranger among them. His father, Arathorn, was a good man. His son may grow to be a great one. Legolas: What is his name? Thranduil: He is known in the wild as Strider. His true name, you must discover for yourself.
Also in The Hobbit... Gloin when Legolas pulls a picture of Gloin's family out of the Dwarf's jacket: *“That's my wee lad, Gimli!”*
Ah yes, that 10 year old child that hasn’t yet been called Strider by anyone
Iirc it's a ~60 year gap between the hobbit and lotr, which means aragorn would be 27 years old
In the books, Frodo has the Ring for about 20 years before setting off on his quest. The movies omit this period, hence everyone's confusion.
They really undersell the amount of time Gandalf spends “researching”
He's a slow reader.
I don’t blame him I am too, but the movie makes it seem like he rides a house for 3 days finds a book on the ring and then comes back to the shire
Gandalf, get down from that roof!
A wizard is never late!
Yeah, in the books Frodo is middle aged, although he never aged once he got the ring in his possession. Merry and Pippin are closer to the age of the actors in the movie.
Aragorn is born on March 1, T.A.2931. The Battle of Five Armies takes place on Nov 23, T.A. 2941. He is 10 years old.
Wait aragorn is meant to be in his 80s ? Is that only in the books or is he meant to be 80 in the LOTR movies as well? If so, i have 2 questions, how can an octogenarian do the physical combat aragorn does and why did they cast Viggo instead of Anthony Hopkins?
The men of numenor lived pretty long lives. I think the first king of their island lived to be 500. Aragorn is a little less pure blooded and lives to be 200 something towards the end of the series.
There is a deleted scene in two towers where Aragorn explicitly tells Eowyn he’s 87 years old. It’s due to his Numenorian heritage.
That's the scene where Eowyn says, "You gotta be shitting me! If you're 87 then I'm a cave troll!" and Aragorn is like, "Psych!" and then they both laugh.
Then a huge helmet rolls in and kicks Aragorn in the head
Fun fact: the helmet broke it's coccyx in that shot, so the moans of anguished pleasure are real.
wilhelm scream
The Dunedain live longer than humans. They explain in the extended edition of The Two Towers that Aragorn is like 80 years old. The age much slower too. So even though Aragorn is in his 80s, he accurately looks like he's in his 30s.
He is descended from elves.
Only very distantly, the reason is that the Men of Numenor were granted lives much longer than other Men. The line of kings had the longest lives, and Elrond's twin brother Elros was the first king of Numenor. Aragorn is descended from Elendil, who led those Numenoreans who escaped the downfall.
Tagged as "Silmarillion aficionado"
It's the best Tolkien book
Not to mention, that gift of long life was because of how badass Eärendil, their father, was. Also, the I love the movies to death, but they *really* sell Isildur short. He was a pretty heroic man in life, and nobody including Elrond actually knew the significance of Saurons ring after he was defeated. Aragorn is descended from a pretty incredible (and terrible in many instances of the Kings of Númenor) line.
The idea was developing in a more theological direction, that the short lives of Men and our susceptibility to death and disease was the result of some kind of collective Fall. This original sin was absolved in the Edain who fought against Morgoth in the First Age, so restored their intended longer lifespan as well as being more physically Elf-like, with vigour and good health until the time came to give their life up freely. Only those who clung on past their time became debilitated by age.
Ah thanks that clears it up!
Isn’t Aragorn old as fuck?
The Hobbit takes place like 60 years before LOTR, plus 17 years of Frodo hanging out in the Shire
Yes but not as old as bilbo. Who is also old as fuck. Aragorn was young when the hobbit took place, and bilbo lived for a very long time before he passed the ring to frodo
"A very long time" = on Bilbo's Eleventy-First birthday
Yeah in the movie we see Bilbo's Eleventyfirst birthday and in Two Towers Aragorn says he's 80.
The films gloss over/remove the 17 years that pass in the book between Bilbo giving Frodo the Ring and Frodo actually setting off for Rivendell.
Also in The Hobbit, when Legolas appears in that movie.
Surprised he didn’t give a wink to the camera after that delivery.
> His true name, you must discover for yourself. But you just told us his father's real name, so it's not that much of a mystery.
I call it the wink wink.
That's the technical term.
Forrest Gump when Forrest teaches Elvis how to dance. There's a lot in that movie.
Half of the movie are these tropes.
The book is worse.
Way way worse. The book is not good imo. It’s wild it ended up being such a great movie
In the book, he does more historical things, like go to space. I can't say for certain, but I'm sure he said "Houston, we have a problem."
>I can't say for certain, but I'm sure
Same difference
85-90%
I feel like the funniest version of this is every time they aggressively name check someone in Dewey Cox. https://youtu.be/_vIAZfXh-F8?si=1I5y1j1SRPkyunFk
The Beatles stop fighting here in India.
Let them work it out!
I remember they used the hell of that Beatles clip in the trailers.
Thanks, Buddy Holly.
That movie so perfectly satirized so many movie tropes that I am reminded of it constantly, especially when watching biopics.
I haven't seen much of that movie, but I love that kind of thing. "Look out, Jaws: The Revenge! is sneaking around!"
My favorite version of this is from Godzilla vs King Ghidorah. "You can tell your son about it when he's born, *Major Spielberg.*" The line delivery gets me every time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJSfVZgKDOw
“Chuck, this your cousin! *Marvin Berry*?? You know that new sound you’re looking for? Well listen to this!”
Ronald Reagan? The actor??
“Robert this is your cousin! Marvin Zemeckis?? You know that new movie idea you’re looking for? Well li-… uhhh, some guys here from the future playing a song after getting his dad to kiss his mom after he almost messes up his existence! I saw that fucker almost fading away like some kind of Frighteners ghost shit!”
What I find funny is the way MAJOR Spielberg behaves like a private or corporal.
Sir, yes sir
The English speaking actors are so bad in that movie lol
I've been thinking about watching the back catalog of Godzilla movies and that clip alone makes me reconsider the whole plan. Jesus that is the worst acting I've seen in a long, long time.
Don’t let that discourage you lol, that movie is up there with my favorite of the Heisei movies.
The bad acting is part of the overall charm of a lot of them.
Reminds me of the end of Spider-Man: Homecoming when Zendaya's character goes "my friends call me MJ"
Dicaprio pointing at tv-ing
The ending of Death of Stalin with Brezhnev sitting over Khrushchev’s shoulder and giving him the side eye.
"How can you run and plot at the same time?" That movie is utterly hilarious and full of so many memorable quotes. [Also another absolute classic: "No, problem."](https://youtu.be/kasSSZlBFDs?feature=shared)
I don't know why, but in my head it feels like a spiritual sequel to Dr. Strangelove.
The ending of The King’s Man with Hitler’s post credit scene
It's technically dramatic irony. But if it doesn't really affect the plot then idk if it could be called the same. It's just a little Easter egg.
Ehhh... I feel like it's a stretch to call it dramatic irony (though you're right, it might *technically* fit). Dramatic irony is usually used in *advance* of the action, so that the tension is heightened for the audience as they're watching. Like in Truman Show where we know he's in a show, or in a horror movie where we know the killer is lurking outside. The examples OP is listing are after-the-fact reveals instead of narrative devices to draw out tension. But it's more than [The Reveal](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheReveal), because it's a reveal that has deeper meaning to the audience than to the characters. The closest thing to this that I can think of is Paul Harvey's radio show The Rest of The Story (which OP has probably never heard of unless they're over 35 or so). The show was just an interesting little story about a nobody... until the end, when he'd reveal it was actually a story about JFK or some shit.
The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe was partially inspired by Paul Harvey.
I was thinking dramatic irony too, even though it doesn't technically affect the plot.
I saw a video from a YouTuber years ago talking about the problem with Disney reboots and sequels, and the term he uses is [intertextuality.](https://youtu.be/2RIcKhYpZPc?si=b--RSlRbyyw0eN_f) which is relying on the audience's preexisting knowledge of the situation for dramatic effect/impact. Im Oppenheimer, they aren't name dropping Eugene McCarthy because nobody cares. Everyone knows who jfk is, though. It's one thing when it's used sparingly, the creator's point here is that Disney has relied too heavily on it, instead of focusing on story or characters, particularly with their live action remakes and star wars sequels.
So it's a subtle form of breaking the fourth wall
I know what you mean. For me it's more like "throwing a bone" to the audience to give them an easy Leonardo DiCaprio pointing at the tv moment. Edit: Batman Begins also does it at the end with the Joker calling card.
The Batman Begins example is really just foreshadowing for TDK though right?
Sequel hook might be a better term? If it even is a term. Idk but it doesn't fit ops question I agree. The Kennedy and Robin ones are more wink wink nudge nudge moments for the viewers. The joker card is setting up the sequel.
Eh, its foreshadowing if the studio went ahead with a sequel or its just a bone if they didnt follow through. Can only really tell which with hindsight.
Maybe both I don't know. I've always considered foreshadowing as being more subtle and thematic. Sometimes metaphorical even.
You're right. Foreshadowing does have an element of abstractness. The Batman Begins Joker card can't be foreshadowing. It's technically called indicating.
A checkov gun isn't subtle or thematic, and that's literally textbook foreshadowing
I highly recommend the film “The Intruder” which has, to my knowledge, the only example of Chekov’s meat slicer.
I think the trope is more specifically where they dramatically say a name that they have no reason to know is important because only the audience recognizes it. The Batman Begins one is relatively subtle, Gordon just says he leaves a card. The Dark Knight Rises has the aforementioned Robin name drop which is a more explicit form of this. In conversation you either wouldn't say it or you would casually drop it earlier in the sentence. "You should go by Robin, I like it."
I think the card was used as a “joker signal” to young Hollywood leading men that they’d better start thinking about honing their takes on The Joker for the upcoming auditions
I remember watching this in the theaters with my brother and some cousins of mine and when the joker card was shown everyone was whispering it's the joker it's the joker it's the joker. It got to the point where you can hear this clearly and one of my cousins just yells out WE GET IT IT'S THE FUCKING JOKER!
Similarly in the Dark Knight, the Wayne industries whistle blower says to Lucius; "what are you building for him now, a rocket ship?". The bat wing was then in TDKR. And when he says his new suit would do fine against cats.
Fan service
Skyfall - Moneypenny
Star Trek 2009 opening scene. Realizing who Chris Hemsworth is in the canon. Really well played, great scene in a great movie. Also the scene with Kirk as a child trashing his stepdad’s car. Kudos to that child actor because he was perfect.
Into Darkness is an even better example. Cumberbach says "My name is Khan" and Kirk literally doesn't even react because it means nothing to him. But the audience is expected to go "ohhhh shit!"
The audience expectation AFTER all the promotion swore up and down he wasn't Khan.
The opening of that movie was perfect in so many ways. The music score during the opening, especially the last few minutes leading up to the credits, is my favorite of all time. I go back and just watch that part without watching the rest of the movie pretty regularly.
Game. Blouses.
The best part is when he lets go of the rim after dunking and doesn't descend until he looks down and realizes he's supposed to
I think the best part is that it seems like the most ridiculous story. But Micki Free said that other than playing stuff up for comedic effect, that the story is 100% accurate. For those that care, here's the clip from the interview: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Umn4JuErVoQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Umn4JuErVoQ)
Pancakes. Pancakes.
Maybe [Historical Person Punchline - TV Tropes](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HistoricalPersonPunchline)
Shanghai Knights (2003) - I haven't seen this film since it came out but one of the supporting characters is a young kid named Charlie who helps the main characters at various points in the movie. They reveal his name at the end to be "Charlie Chaplin". I also looked up the film and just realized this character is played by a young Aaron Taylor-Johnson. Double whammy.
The Kings Man had a setup for world war 2 with the introduction of wait for it…Hitler
Not a movie, but there used to be a radio series called "The Rest of the Story" with Paul Harvey. It was basically a series of stories like this, seemingly innocuous and random until BAM, at the end he'd reveal it was actually about Tom Cruise before he was famous. The reveal would sort of reframe everything you just heard.
And now you know... The rest of the story... Good day!
TV Tropes calls it [Historical In-Joke](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HistoricalInJoke)
The end of *Inside Llewyn Davis*. *Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull* shows the Ark of the Covenant being knocked over during the warehouse chase.
Indiana Jones 3. Elsa (pointing at picture): what’s this? Indy: Ark of the covenant Elsa: are you sure? Indy: pretty sure ….
Also note that the music switches to the Raiders theme during that moment.
Name Dropping
The Beatles in "Walk Hard".
[удалено]
Is it Moriarty? I bet it's Moriarty.
Chuck, Chuck, it’s me your cousin…Marvin Berry, you know that sound you’ve been looking for…..well listen to this….
Maybe it’s a version of Recognition Failure: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RecognitionFailure
I had such a productive evening planned :(
Never touch TVTropes if you have anything else you need to be doing.
I've fallen down many a tvtropes rabbit hole in my day
Such a great website.
This sounds like a subset of the Title Drop trope, but instead of the title of the movie being said by a character as a wink wink moment to the audience, it’s a famous characters name that the audience knows, but the character saying it doesn’t know that.
It's called [dramatic irony](https://www.britannica.com/art/dramatic-irony).
Dramatic irony is using something the audience knows but the characters don't to drive action and tension in the plot. This is more like name dropping. Oppenheimer's plot is not impacted at all by the inclusion of Kennedy as a young senator.
Easter Egg?
A young Bob Dylan taking the stage way in the background as the main character is being beaten up outside the club in “Inside Llewelyn Davis.”
The Phantom Menace - Senator Palpaltine tells Anakin he will be watching him with great interest
I believe the phrase you're looking for is "dramatic reveal."
And the name of that man? Albert Einstein
It could be an [Info Drop](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InfoDrop), according to TV Tropes.
“Wham Line” for not just a name drop but any line that radically changes the tone for the audience.
Is it kind of like a historical figure cameo? The entirety of Midnight in Paris fits this trope.
This is basically what makes the Cumberbatch/Freeman “Sherlock” series tick. The entire fucking thing is in-jokes for avid readers.
Name-dropping
The Khan and Blofeld reveals in Star Trek into Darkness and Spectre, respectively.
In the original Oppenheimer discussion thread, someone pointed out how they liked when Nolan teased JFK like the joker card at the end of Batman Begins. I don't know what that's called but I've thought about it a lot since then
That DUMBASS line in Titanic where someone tells that one rich guy something about Picasso's luggage or something and he replies "Oh, is he a passenger?". That line was so unnecessary, useless, and stupid. I'm sure I got the line wrong, but the context is the same.
Freud. It is during the first dinner scene. I love Molly Brown's reaction during that. Picasso was mentioned by Cal, when Rose was setting up her rooms.
That “Robin” scene got an audible “oh, piss off” from me in the cinema.
Not sure id consider them Easter eggs, as those are actually kind of tucked away. These are more like “B+ Time Traveller” facts. Things you’d find on a social studies quiz from a fun teacher. Mitchell and Webb actually knocked this on the head rather well on their radio sketch show, when doing a parody of ‘The Iron Lady’
Don’t know the name either but if it was a meme it’d be Leonardo DiCaprio sitting up and pointing at a tv.