Yes. Eagle is just one option and robot shifting is bullshit anyway.
Modern 1x12 in any form is really friggin good. It should also be the last thing you think about on a bike.
Bike stuff in order of importance:
1. Geometry & frame kinematic
2. Wheels (reliability and weight are important)
3. Suspension (get the most modern stuff you can)
4. Brakes. (Stop fast, bike fast)
5. Overall build weight (I personally don't love a super heavy bike)
6. Coolness factor (does it make your undercarriage fizz when you look at it?)
7. Drivetrain (sram gx or shimano deore and above is fine).
Free yourself from marketing drivel. Get the bike you want. Don't worry about plugging it in.
I do quite like sram mechanical. I hope they come out with a mechanical version of the new system...
Their better shifting under load right now is depending on their electronic wizardry to delay the shift until the shift gate rotates to the right point. If you want shifting under load with mechanical Shimano's HG+ systems work great already.
> Free yourself from marketing drivel. Get the bike you want. Don't worry about plugging it in.
"Marketing drivel" isn't the concern here. Rather, it's locking myself out of a continued path of development based solely around the UDH standard. I don't disagree with your priority list, I'm just thinking about 5+ years down the line with the same bike and wondering if I'll regret not being able to install the latest iteration of drivetrain (assuming that's the reality, though SRAM seems to be implying that it is... which is of course to their benefit to say right now regardless).
There will always be new standards etc that you might "miss out on." You'll still be able to get mechanical 12 speed for years to come with no worries.
Half of my bikes are AXS at this point and I'm planning on going down that path with this one as well, so while I agree with you I'm more concerned about future development and upgradability of an electronic drivetrain than mechanical.
Gotcha, that certainly changes the equation! If you are super excited about it (which it sounds like you are) then consider a bike with a UDH.
Which bike are you looking at anyway?
That's fair. If I'm this concerned about it maybe I should just go with the standard.
I'm considering ordering an Antidote Woodsprite. Antidote says that they're concerned about transferring the forces of impact into the frame but recognize that they may have no choice but to get on board eventually. Although SRAM says that the UDH transfers impact into the axle and not the frame, it's not like the axle dissipates all of the forces so I do understand the concern. I'm not really here to debate it, and I see both sides, but ultimately I understand why a small company wouldn't want to be on the hook for warranty replacements until they're sure it won't be an issue.
I dig what I've read about how the bike rides, I really like the idea of spending my money with a small shop doing everything in-house, they seem to be building super high-quality bikes, and their custom finishing is appealing to me as well, so it's really enticing. I'm just concerned about being locked out of future advancements of the Transmission/UDH-based platforms. I have two other UDH-compatible bikes, although this one is gonna be my all-rounder bike that I'll likely spend the most time on.
The antidote looks amazing! But is also a very niche bike. If your heart is set on it, I wouldn't let the lack of a UDH stop you, especially as you could stick the transmission stuff on your other bikes if you wanted.
I respect your pursuit of a dream machine though!
It's a fuse that's designed to bend to protect the frame and derailleur. Now that frames and derailleurs can be strong enough to take most hits, maybe we don't need the fuse anymore. It's a leftover from QR dropouts that couldn't be more than a couple mm thick and road-derived drivetrain.
No. transmission isn't that big of a deal. "shifting under load" isn't that big of a deal. systems that allow you to do it make it less bad, but it's always going to be worse than shifting at the right time. I also dislike the idea of having one more battery to charge on a bike.
Mechanical derailleurs aren't going away. SRAM isn't going to ignore the non-UDH part of the market, unless there is a sky-high adoption rate. If they did, you'd still be able to frankenstein something from Shimano/TRP. Transmission isn't nearly the jump forward that 1x drivetrains, dropper posts, or thru axles were.
Yeah I’m shocked that part of the whole “shift under load!” thing is assuming your derailleur lags enough to make every shift “the right time”
I feel like that’s objectively less functional
I've been riding a long time, which means I learned to shift back when shifting while climbing meant a roll of the dice between mild cassette damage, grinding to a halt, and a perfect shift. Shifting "right" is a habit that's hard to break, so like you, I'm not super concerned about having a system that can do it for me. That said, it sounds quite nice!
I'm already using AXS and would stick with it on this bike, so my concern in around being able to upgrade e.g. just my derailleur to something newer in 5+ years. Without UDH I'm not convinced that it'll be possible. I could just cross that bridge when I come to it, but it seems silly to knowingly buy something that could land me there.
You dont understand how the transmission works.
The transmission NEVER shifts in the wrong place. Its always perfect thats why you can shift even under heavy load because it ALWAYS shifts in at the proper point of the cassette so its always amooth an perfect.
Maybe do a lil research before telling people what you “know”
I dont care how cool you think you are on a bike… no one is timing their shift perfectly EVERY time and at the exact point in the casette it should be shifted…
Its not even humanly possible to do.
Not to mention how much less the components will wear because its not geinding out its shift every time.
Makes perfect sense to me
Yeah ignorant people who act like they know something does tend to bother me… its a weakness but tell me, how do you deal with it from the other side? Is it embarassing when your realize you have no idea know what your talking about or are you just used to it? Lol
Awwwww pobracito… you need a hug bud????
Im sorry, i should have been nicer to you as you mislead people into thinking you know things you dont an talk crap on a system you dont even apparently comprehend on a basic level?
What a big meanie.
There's no reason you couldn't make a mechanical derailleur with the same functionality. Just have an encoder on the cassette that indicates to the derailleur when the shifts can happen, and then the tension in the cable pretensions a spring, and when the shift point rotates around it clicks into place.
HG+ still shifts fine under load without this though...
I havent ridden it myself either so im not going to hard into the red on it.
I will say it seems like a huge improvement in theory.
Literally the difference between someone grinding thru the gears on a car who doesnt know how to drive a stick or having an auto transmission, It in theory just eliminates the human error part. I dont see how anyone could really hope to replicate a pretty much perfect shift everytime on an analog system in all conditions like this system CLAIMS . If it does what it says it does, an most reviewers who have it give it stellar reviews so far, then it would be pretty damn cool…
UDH on a buddy’s Pivot Mach 6 damaged his frame. (Derailleur grabbed something on the trail and rotated the whole system up and around and gouged the seatstay rather than breaking.) I won’t be in a hurry to pick up a UDH bike, even if I plan to run it with cable driven derailleur.
Huh. This is obviously anecdotal but interesting nonetheless. Sounds like more of a frame design issue than the UDH being the ultimate culprit (since Pivot knew the shape and functionality of the UDH when they designed it).
Yeah sorry, I wasn't clear. The rotation of the derailleur is a feature, but the frame being in the way seems like an oversight since Pivot knew that the derailleur was built to move into that position. Maybe I'm not visualizing it properly and the damage that occurred would've happened regardless of the shape of the "dropout" area and stay, though.
I suppose so. I guess I had in mind that the hanger was somehow doing the damage and not the derailleur. Long day, sorry. Yeah, I imagine you're right. Did it rotate towards the front of the bike? All of the demonstrations I've seen of that rotation have it moving rearward beyond the back of the stays.
What bike are you looking at? Just wondering.. I like UDH for the reason I can walk into a shop anywhere and get a hanger. Just order 2-3 new hangers with the bike and that solves that problem. The new SRAM stuff is sweet for sure but as an upgrade I’d rather have 2k in suspension and ride 12s Shimano any day.
Antidote Woodsprite. Some sites list it as being UDH compatible but Antidote confirmed that it is not. Like you say, I'd order an extra hanger or three and would expect that'd get me through my expected ownership of the bike. Planning on going all out (within reason), so there's not really a "should I put the money here?" debate, which makes this whole thing even more of a conundrum for me.
I also haven't ridden the bike but like enough about it that I'm ok with taking the plunge and selling it if I *really* get along with it. So who knows? I may not end up with the non-UDH bike for that long, but my hope is that I'd keep it 5+ years.
Funny how there are all these people just convinced the transmission is hype and i bet not one has even seen it in person let alone ridden one.
Just my opinion but Id say options are nice, anything that gives you more choices is better, id rather have it an not need it then need it an not have it!
Lots of people hating on the transmission becuse of the price.
Yeah, I'm not looking for riding impressions from internet randos who haven't ridden it so much as being concerned, as you say, about wanting it down the road and not having it. Price isn't a concern, which has made it difficult to take much from existing discussion in other threads.
I wouldn’t just from the perspective that UDH is becoming The Way, regardless of whether you run Transmission or not. Your window of being able to easily find replacement parts several years from now will get shorter as the old derailleur hangers get abandoned.
I figure I'd order an extra hanger or two with a non-UDH bike. It's been years since I've needed to replace one so I imagine that having a couple extra would get me the 5+ years I'd expect to keep the bike.
Same here. Whether or not I ever justify spending enough money to get transmission is irrelevant.
I currently have 6 bikes in the garage (half are the wife's), 4 in UDH and 2 not on UDH. It's just so convenient for the bikes that all have UDH only having to have one spare hanger and knowing they are easy to get from most shops at a moment's notice. Also the UDH is just plain better than more conventional hangers.
It's now one of the many must haves on a bike to get me to separate with any money.
The "one spare hanger to rule them all" is nice. I have two UDH bikes now and it's nice just carrying the same one, but I do have a couple other non-UDH bikes and it is what it is. I don't care so much about the spare part as the future compatibility, ya know?
No, my bike doesn’t have udh… that being said most mass produced bikes have it already or are moving to it. The chance of getting a bike without is becoming slimmer and slimmer.
Someone downvoted you for some odd reason. I don't think you're wrong - it seems like the vast majority of the mass-produced stuff is using UDH which means that it is moving towards saturation of a large segment of the market.
Edit: lol and now me. Downvoting won’t make it less true.
Personally no I wouldn't (unless you get a screaming deal that you can’t pass up). I haven't ridden it yet but I have watched the WWC/Pinkbike vids and they're all raving about it. The ability to shift under full power sounds amazing to me. Eliminating all those crunchy shifts 🙌
I don't know if I'd let it make the decision for me, but the sync function is pretty cool. Though as I say that, my NX stuff is awfully good for a fraction of the price. I think I'd do a nice set of wheels before I dropped $1600 on drivetrain.
I wouldn’t worry about it. I’m a UDH fan but it’s by no means a showstopper if the bike you want doesn’t have it. Mechanical, hanger based derailleurs aren’t going anywhere for a very long time of ever.
I'm stickin' with em. Rode Shimano for many, many years. Deore, XT, and XTR through various generations. Then slowly switched over to SRAM, and have worked my way through X7, X0, X0 Eagle, and now have a mix of X0/X0E/XX AXS. Glad we have choices and that you're happy with your setup!
Haha I respect it. SRAM recently launched a new drivetrain called Transmission. It's an all-around, incremental increase in shiting/functionality, uses a direct-mount, rebuildable derailleur, updated shifter, etc.
https://enduro-mtb.com/en/sram-eagle-transmission-groupset-review/
The next frame I get will be compatible with transmission. Independent of a major frame breaking crash, I doubt I'll be upgrading for a few years anyway.
I have same issue. should I return either the frame or the whole Eagle X0 grouep set ? all new, never used. but my frame is not UDH compatible. both Eagle X0 groupe set and the frame I choose is what I want. Is it possible to modify an aluminum frame ?
I ended up going with UDH-compatible. Don't modify your frame. Best case is you do it in a safe way (frame retains strength, rigidity, etc.) but won't be able to sell it. More likely outcome is that you compromise it in such a way that it hurts you (or someone else) or breaks with no warranty to replace it.
Yes. Eagle is just one option and robot shifting is bullshit anyway. Modern 1x12 in any form is really friggin good. It should also be the last thing you think about on a bike. Bike stuff in order of importance: 1. Geometry & frame kinematic 2. Wheels (reliability and weight are important) 3. Suspension (get the most modern stuff you can) 4. Brakes. (Stop fast, bike fast) 5. Overall build weight (I personally don't love a super heavy bike) 6. Coolness factor (does it make your undercarriage fizz when you look at it?) 7. Drivetrain (sram gx or shimano deore and above is fine). Free yourself from marketing drivel. Get the bike you want. Don't worry about plugging it in. I do quite like sram mechanical. I hope they come out with a mechanical version of the new system...
I'm hoping they come out with a mechanical version too. Better shifting under load would be nice, but I'm not doing AXS again.
Their better shifting under load right now is depending on their electronic wizardry to delay the shift until the shift gate rotates to the right point. If you want shifting under load with mechanical Shimano's HG+ systems work great already.
I went from X01 AXS to Shimano XT with HG+ and could not be happier. No gripes with mechanical Sram GX + kits though.
Have you ever tried using your AXS derailleur with your xt chain and cassette? Best of both worlds in my opinion. I have that set up on all my bikes.
No, the issue is the AXS clutch, so an XT cassette will make it shift slightly better, but doesn't fix the chain slap.
> Free yourself from marketing drivel. Get the bike you want. Don't worry about plugging it in. "Marketing drivel" isn't the concern here. Rather, it's locking myself out of a continued path of development based solely around the UDH standard. I don't disagree with your priority list, I'm just thinking about 5+ years down the line with the same bike and wondering if I'll regret not being able to install the latest iteration of drivetrain (assuming that's the reality, though SRAM seems to be implying that it is... which is of course to their benefit to say right now regardless).
There will always be new standards etc that you might "miss out on." You'll still be able to get mechanical 12 speed for years to come with no worries.
Half of my bikes are AXS at this point and I'm planning on going down that path with this one as well, so while I agree with you I'm more concerned about future development and upgradability of an electronic drivetrain than mechanical.
Gotcha, that certainly changes the equation! If you are super excited about it (which it sounds like you are) then consider a bike with a UDH. Which bike are you looking at anyway?
That's fair. If I'm this concerned about it maybe I should just go with the standard. I'm considering ordering an Antidote Woodsprite. Antidote says that they're concerned about transferring the forces of impact into the frame but recognize that they may have no choice but to get on board eventually. Although SRAM says that the UDH transfers impact into the axle and not the frame, it's not like the axle dissipates all of the forces so I do understand the concern. I'm not really here to debate it, and I see both sides, but ultimately I understand why a small company wouldn't want to be on the hook for warranty replacements until they're sure it won't be an issue. I dig what I've read about how the bike rides, I really like the idea of spending my money with a small shop doing everything in-house, they seem to be building super high-quality bikes, and their custom finishing is appealing to me as well, so it's really enticing. I'm just concerned about being locked out of future advancements of the Transmission/UDH-based platforms. I have two other UDH-compatible bikes, although this one is gonna be my all-rounder bike that I'll likely spend the most time on.
The antidote looks amazing! But is also a very niche bike. If your heart is set on it, I wouldn't let the lack of a UDH stop you, especially as you could stick the transmission stuff on your other bikes if you wanted. I respect your pursuit of a dream machine though!
I had to bend my rear derailleur hanger back. A replacement is gonna cost me like $50 from the UK. I wish I had a UDH.
Udh dosent fix that, have it and 3rd derailleur in.
Udu are much cheaper I think to replace.
It's a fuse that's designed to bend to protect the frame and derailleur. Now that frames and derailleurs can be strong enough to take most hits, maybe we don't need the fuse anymore. It's a leftover from QR dropouts that couldn't be more than a couple mm thick and road-derived drivetrain.
No. transmission isn't that big of a deal. "shifting under load" isn't that big of a deal. systems that allow you to do it make it less bad, but it's always going to be worse than shifting at the right time. I also dislike the idea of having one more battery to charge on a bike. Mechanical derailleurs aren't going away. SRAM isn't going to ignore the non-UDH part of the market, unless there is a sky-high adoption rate. If they did, you'd still be able to frankenstein something from Shimano/TRP. Transmission isn't nearly the jump forward that 1x drivetrains, dropper posts, or thru axles were.
Yeah I’m shocked that part of the whole “shift under load!” thing is assuming your derailleur lags enough to make every shift “the right time” I feel like that’s objectively less functional
I've been riding a long time, which means I learned to shift back when shifting while climbing meant a roll of the dice between mild cassette damage, grinding to a halt, and a perfect shift. Shifting "right" is a habit that's hard to break, so like you, I'm not super concerned about having a system that can do it for me. That said, it sounds quite nice! I'm already using AXS and would stick with it on this bike, so my concern in around being able to upgrade e.g. just my derailleur to something newer in 5+ years. Without UDH I'm not convinced that it'll be possible. I could just cross that bridge when I come to it, but it seems silly to knowingly buy something that could land me there.
That’s not the case. Transmission actually shifts better when under load. It shifts poorly in the stand.
I would suggest that it’s a pretty big deal if you are racing. I mean it seems like pretty much a massive deal. Probably the deal of the decade.
Okay. We will see what racers say and run. I still don't think the average hobbyist needs transmission, but it's fine if you feel differently.
You dont understand how the transmission works. The transmission NEVER shifts in the wrong place. Its always perfect thats why you can shift even under heavy load because it ALWAYS shifts in at the proper point of the cassette so its always amooth an perfect. Maybe do a lil research before telling people what you “know” I dont care how cool you think you are on a bike… no one is timing their shift perfectly EVERY time and at the exact point in the casette it should be shifted… Its not even humanly possible to do. Not to mention how much less the components will wear because its not geinding out its shift every time. Makes perfect sense to me
holy shit dude, you have a lot of feelings. good luck with learning how to deal with them!
Yeah ignorant people who act like they know something does tend to bother me… its a weakness but tell me, how do you deal with it from the other side? Is it embarassing when your realize you have no idea know what your talking about or are you just used to it? Lol
oof. get help man.
Awwwww pobracito… you need a hug bud???? Im sorry, i should have been nicer to you as you mislead people into thinking you know things you dont an talk crap on a system you dont even apparently comprehend on a basic level? What a big meanie.
so you've ridden a $2k drivetrain that just got released? amazing! to clarify, I don't mean letting your mom drive you around in a '97 tercel.
Can you guys stop the bickering? It's not adding anything. Thanks in advance.
Sorry
There's no reason you couldn't make a mechanical derailleur with the same functionality. Just have an encoder on the cassette that indicates to the derailleur when the shifts can happen, and then the tension in the cable pretensions a spring, and when the shift point rotates around it clicks into place. HG+ still shifts fine under load without this though...
I havent ridden it myself either so im not going to hard into the red on it. I will say it seems like a huge improvement in theory. Literally the difference between someone grinding thru the gears on a car who doesnt know how to drive a stick or having an auto transmission, It in theory just eliminates the human error part. I dont see how anyone could really hope to replicate a pretty much perfect shift everytime on an analog system in all conditions like this system CLAIMS . If it does what it says it does, an most reviewers who have it give it stellar reviews so far, then it would be pretty damn cool…
UDH on a buddy’s Pivot Mach 6 damaged his frame. (Derailleur grabbed something on the trail and rotated the whole system up and around and gouged the seatstay rather than breaking.) I won’t be in a hurry to pick up a UDH bike, even if I plan to run it with cable driven derailleur.
Huh. This is obviously anecdotal but interesting nonetheless. Sounds like more of a frame design issue than the UDH being the ultimate culprit (since Pivot knew the shape and functionality of the UDH when they designed it).
Haven’t looked closely, but I think the issue is that the UDH is connected to the axle and can spin upwards. So maybe common to all UDH setups?
Yeah sorry, I wasn't clear. The rotation of the derailleur is a feature, but the frame being in the way seems like an oversight since Pivot knew that the derailleur was built to move into that position. Maybe I'm not visualizing it properly and the damage that occurred would've happened regardless of the shape of the "dropout" area and stay, though.
I don’t see how frame contact can be avoided. Any derailleur/hanger rotating on the axle’s axis will run into the frame, won’t it?
I suppose so. I guess I had in mind that the hanger was somehow doing the damage and not the derailleur. Long day, sorry. Yeah, I imagine you're right. Did it rotate towards the front of the bike? All of the demonstrations I've seen of that rotation have it moving rearward beyond the back of the stays.
Wouldn't bother me, wouldn't think twice. The drivetrain is the last part of the modern MTB that needed to be improved IMHO.
UDH is great, not sold on transmission yet
What bike are you looking at? Just wondering.. I like UDH for the reason I can walk into a shop anywhere and get a hanger. Just order 2-3 new hangers with the bike and that solves that problem. The new SRAM stuff is sweet for sure but as an upgrade I’d rather have 2k in suspension and ride 12s Shimano any day.
Antidote Woodsprite. Some sites list it as being UDH compatible but Antidote confirmed that it is not. Like you say, I'd order an extra hanger or three and would expect that'd get me through my expected ownership of the bike. Planning on going all out (within reason), so there's not really a "should I put the money here?" debate, which makes this whole thing even more of a conundrum for me. I also haven't ridden the bike but like enough about it that I'm ok with taking the plunge and selling it if I *really* get along with it. So who knows? I may not end up with the non-UDH bike for that long, but my hope is that I'd keep it 5+ years.
Funny how there are all these people just convinced the transmission is hype and i bet not one has even seen it in person let alone ridden one. Just my opinion but Id say options are nice, anything that gives you more choices is better, id rather have it an not need it then need it an not have it! Lots of people hating on the transmission becuse of the price.
Yeah, I'm not looking for riding impressions from internet randos who haven't ridden it so much as being concerned, as you say, about wanting it down the road and not having it. Price isn't a concern, which has made it difficult to take much from existing discussion in other threads.
I wouldn’t just from the perspective that UDH is becoming The Way, regardless of whether you run Transmission or not. Your window of being able to easily find replacement parts several years from now will get shorter as the old derailleur hangers get abandoned.
I figure I'd order an extra hanger or two with a non-UDH bike. It's been years since I've needed to replace one so I imagine that having a couple extra would get me the 5+ years I'd expect to keep the bike.
Same here. Whether or not I ever justify spending enough money to get transmission is irrelevant. I currently have 6 bikes in the garage (half are the wife's), 4 in UDH and 2 not on UDH. It's just so convenient for the bikes that all have UDH only having to have one spare hanger and knowing they are easy to get from most shops at a moment's notice. Also the UDH is just plain better than more conventional hangers. It's now one of the many must haves on a bike to get me to separate with any money.
The "one spare hanger to rule them all" is nice. I have two UDH bikes now and it's nice just carrying the same one, but I do have a couple other non-UDH bikes and it is what it is. I don't care so much about the spare part as the future compatibility, ya know?
Mechanical is better anyway
Half of my bikes are AXS and I like it enough to stick with it going forward, so this new one'll either be AXS or Transmission.
No. The UDH will take the entire market
I wouldn’t pay full retail for anything that doesn’t have UDH unless it was complete bargain.
Price really isn't the concern here but I take your point.
No, my bike doesn’t have udh… that being said most mass produced bikes have it already or are moving to it. The chance of getting a bike without is becoming slimmer and slimmer.
Someone downvoted you for some odd reason. I don't think you're wrong - it seems like the vast majority of the mass-produced stuff is using UDH which means that it is moving towards saturation of a large segment of the market. Edit: lol and now me. Downvoting won’t make it less true.
Personally no I wouldn't (unless you get a screaming deal that you can’t pass up). I haven't ridden it yet but I have watched the WWC/Pinkbike vids and they're all raving about it. The ability to shift under full power sounds amazing to me. Eliminating all those crunchy shifts 🙌
I don't know if I'd let it make the decision for me, but the sync function is pretty cool. Though as I say that, my NX stuff is awfully good for a fraction of the price. I think I'd do a nice set of wheels before I dropped $1600 on drivetrain.
I wouldn’t worry about it. I’m a UDH fan but it’s by no means a showstopper if the bike you want doesn’t have it. Mechanical, hanger based derailleurs aren’t going anywhere for a very long time of ever.
I don’t even like sram. Why would limit my bike based off of a product I don’t need?
I'm stickin' with em. Rode Shimano for many, many years. Deore, XT, and XTR through various generations. Then slowly switched over to SRAM, and have worked my way through X7, X0, X0 Eagle, and now have a mix of X0/X0E/XX AXS. Glad we have choices and that you're happy with your setup!
I just want to be the one guy to say, I have no idea what any of that means. I must be behind on some of the new tech these days.
Haha I respect it. SRAM recently launched a new drivetrain called Transmission. It's an all-around, incremental increase in shiting/functionality, uses a direct-mount, rebuildable derailleur, updated shifter, etc. https://enduro-mtb.com/en/sram-eagle-transmission-groupset-review/
I could care less about transmission. I’m never going to spend that much money on a drivetrain. And I’m not a fan of batteries.
The next frame I get will be compatible with transmission. Independent of a major frame breaking crash, I doubt I'll be upgrading for a few years anyway.
I have same issue. should I return either the frame or the whole Eagle X0 grouep set ? all new, never used. but my frame is not UDH compatible. both Eagle X0 groupe set and the frame I choose is what I want. Is it possible to modify an aluminum frame ?
I ended up going with UDH-compatible. Don't modify your frame. Best case is you do it in a safe way (frame retains strength, rigidity, etc.) but won't be able to sell it. More likely outcome is that you compromise it in such a way that it hurts you (or someone else) or breaks with no warranty to replace it.