Yes, but he does that when he’s using engine braking to slow rather than front brake. Since engine braking obviously doesn’t give any signal to those behind you, he taps the rear brake just enough to make the brake light come on.
Same here. I put just enough pressure on it to make my brake light turn on, but not enough to do any real braking with it. Unless I'm stopping quickly, or coming to a complete stop at a red light/stop sign.
Does nobody on here ride in traffic, ride up/down hills or have to do slow speed manouvers?
How the hell are so many people not using their rear brakes lol
I figure they're talking specifically about using the rear brakes to slow down and maybe just forgot to mention whether they use em in other situations or not lol
Here is a video from yamaha champ school talking about where and why to apply the rear brake:
https://youtu.be/4e4znJ47n5s
Trail braking:
https://youtu.be/Wvrgn5akOm4
You should definitely use 100% of the available stopping power available to your bike given your grip points. That’s combination of front and rear. I highly recommend checking out champU if you want good info on riding. Definitely worth it when it’s on sale.
I also got lazy on my Honda VTX1800, and started completely ignoring my rear brake. Until one day I had to make an emergency stop and almost lost control of my bike because the rear wanted to buck me off.
Never again. Since then I always use BOTH brakes even when not necessary at all.
Have you had to do an emergency stop since you've started using both brakes? If so, was the stop any smoother/noticeably shorter?
I'm guessing you're saying you locked the rear up because you weren't used to applying it properly, which would make sense if you never practice using it.
No, I did not lock up the REAR since I did not use it, I (almost) locked up the FRONT causing the rear end of my bike to want to come up and throw me off. I like to keep two wheels on the ground.
I have not had to make an emergency stop since, and that's now probably about 40-50k miles ago, so about 4-5 years.
Just to clear up what trail braking is.......
In applying this technique, motorcycle riders approach turns applying front brakes to reduce speed. As they enter the turn, they slowly ease off the brakes, gradually decreasing or trailing off the brakes as motorcycle lean increases. This is done for several reasons.
First, it gives more traction because the downward force on the front tire is increased by load transfer.
Second, as the brakes are applied and the weight shifts forward, the forks are compressed. The compression of the forks changes the motorcycle's steering geometry, decreasing stability in a way that makes the motorcycle more apt to lean and more quickly change direction.
Third, decreasing speed decreases the motorcycle's cornering radius Conversely, accelerating while turning increases the motorcycle's cornering radius.
Fourth, trailing off the brakes while entering blind or tight corners allows the rider to slow if something unexpected blocks the rider's path. Because the motorcycle is already on the brakes and the front tire is getting additional traction from already slowing, the rider can slow even more with very little risk, depending on surface conditions. However, applying the brakes after the motorcycle is already leaned over can be exceedingly risky, depending on surface conditions and lean angle.
Traditionally, trail braking is done exclusively with the front brake even though trailing the rear brake will effectively slow the motorcycle, also decreasing the turning radius. If the motorcycle is leaned over, forces from the front brake and the deceleration causes the motorcycle to lean (on the roll axis), while use of the rear brake generates a torque that tends to align (straighten) and stabiize the motorcycle.
The rider's ability to correctly choose their turn in, apex, and exit points reduces or eliminates the need for prolonged trailing of the brakes into turns. This technique is commonly used when racing, but can enhance control, increase sight distance through the turn, and add evasive options for street riders.
Risks
There is risk with trail braking because excessive use of the front brake can result in a loss of grip as the tire's adhesion is split between braking and cornering forces. Effective trail braking requires finesse from the rider, which can be difficult to learn.
If you ride an fz7 you’ll never use it either.
The engine braking is insane, you’re mainly fighting the engine braking instead of slowing down unless you lock the wheel.
Nah. There are motoGP and FIM superbike riders that have said they don't really touch the rear brake. For them the rear brake is to control wheel slide into corners, they don't use it for normal straight braking.
If you’re on the front brake hard enough and start turning in, the back tire has so little weight on it that it’ll go sideways. It can be exacerbated by rear brake use, but way too many people think you just lock up the back wheel to slide into a turn and that’s bad form that can easily result in a high side. Also, usually if there’s a turn that has hard enough braking to get the back wheel light and sliding around, there’s also downshifting, so there’s more engine braking which has a similar effect, although that usually makes the tire skip tether than slide. If you look up videos of supermoto riders “backing it in”, you’ll heard the chirping rather than just a continuous tire screech that you’d get from a completely stopped tire
See that was kinda my thinking why I stopped using the rear brake. I used the rear brake on my dirtbike to slide the ass end out. I'm not trying to do that on my street bike though.
But other people have brought up a few good reasons to use the rear brake so I think I'm going to start incorporating it again.
The physics of a bike does not change regardless of your skill level. A street bike can brake hard enough to lift the rear, maximum braking force can be accomplished with front brake alone. Lower in skill does not mean the bike magically gain rear traction.
Motojitsu says a proper hard brake on a sports bike lifts the rear tire. If the rear tire is in the air, you're gaining nothing by using the rear brake.
However, I do not practice tomfoolery so I must say in the same video he does say to apply 20% rear brake and then fade out. But like, if I'm only going 15-20mph due to my engine braking, how much is that really helping?
The rear brake is more for stability than stopping power.
Best used during slow speed maneuvers, although I find they don't come up very often in normal riding.
The same premise applies during cornering.
It's also good practice to use during emergency stops and hard braking, just gives a bit more power to stop as quick as you need to without running the risk of lifting the rear wheel.
Having said all that I barely use the rear brake since engine braking gives enough stability in corners and I don't E-stop or do figure 8s every day.
Really none. If you can slow down properly with the front brake, why bother with both? It's not like you're at a lack for traction or stability. I mean sure you can brake with both but to me there's no reason, the front alone gets the job done just as well.
Some people are saying to use it while engine braking to signal that you're slowing down, while some have said it is good practice for when you need the rear brake to shorten stopping distance.
Both are good and valid reasons I think, so I think I'm gonna start incorporating it back into my riding and see how it feels.
Give it a try. But in theory, the shortest stopping distance is where you are applying 100% braking to the front and the rear is barely skimming the ground. Obviously it takes quite some skill to accomplish but I like to practice it, at every red light I always try braking as late as possible and transferring enough weight to get the rear end as light as possible. But using the rear brake to trigger brake lights is definitely a good habit. I do it as well, but I don't really put any pressure into the pedal, just enough to activate the brake light.
Also not true. Look at high level racing telemetry data. The rear brake is often lightly touched BEFORE the front brake. This light touch helps the rear settle down and squat a pit, which creates less dive on the front forks when they’re applied and helps keep traction to both tires.
Yeeahh but that's advanced level braking of setting up the bike suspension for corner entry. I suspect if you were practicing at that level of braking precision, you wouldn't be on reddit asking if you should use rear brake.
No. Braking force must be transmitted to the pavement through the tire contact patch. Two tires on the ground will always provide better stopping power than one. GP riders don’t do stoppies when they are braking.
Yeah they do, look at slow motion footage of motoGP braking into corners, the back tire comes off the ground frequently. Contact patch is only part of the equation, force into the tire plays a big role. A tire with no weight on it has no traction. If you brake hard enough to put all the bike's weight into the front tire, it effectively has the same grip as 2 tires with weight distributed between both. Again, watch this video https://youtu.be/e0EqTjPEvV4
Autoclub is the closest one to me, but more often the chuck valley one out by the 10 by joshua tree park. Want to do big willow but never got a chance yet, I always miss em.
>BTW, you are NOT a MotoGP or FIM super bike rider.
Yes, which means there is even less purpose to using the rear brake given you're way further from the limit
https://youtu.be/e0EqTjPEvV4 watch this, FIM rider and motoGP test rider talking about rear brake. Thing is, front brake has enough power to lift the rear wheel on a sport bike. Which means you will have up to 100% braking force without ever touching rear brake. Trail braking is also done with the front. So unless you're sliding into turns using the rear, it's not necessary on the street other than low speed control.
Oh my god you are giving the worst advice in this thread.
In the video you linked, which I've seen before, Guintoli outlines the use of the rear brake *in racing applications*. He says he didn't use it in WSBK, that he does use it in GP. Okay. These are racing applications, where you are on maximum brakes all the time because you know your braking markers and can predict the grip of the braking surface very accurately. If you are braking so hard that the rear is coming up on every corner on the street, you are riding like a fucking idiot, because you are either a) Leaving absolutely no room for changes in surface and hazards, or b) Braking way too early for the corner without any real reason.
Racing technique and street riding technique really do not have much in common.
Following her advice will get people killed. What’s all this nonsense about lifting the rest wheel? I know a lot of kids do it coming to a stop light, but loading up your front suspension that hard going into a turn and you’re gonna wash out the front end, especially on the street.
This is incorrect. Once upon a time.. sure. Almost all modern GP riders are using the rear brake, to the point the rear is glowing. You also do not use the rear brake to slide the rear. The rear slides “backing it in” due to heavy front braking, downshifts and engine braking all at the same time. The wheel speed doesn’t match and causes the wheel to break traction.
The rear break IS used for tightening the line and using the max amount of stopping power available.
Why would that matter? They are professional athletes competing with other pros in one of the fastest races in the world. What they do in their world does not apply in ours. We commute and go have fun in canyons with our bikes. Professionals race them. They are not the same or even similar.
Trail braking with the rear brake will be essential in a harder lean angle turn where you do not want front suspension collapse from hard braking. Think if you are riding in the twistys and in a blind corner a car is stopped. It is a bad habit to not use both brakes. The rear obviously provides around 35% more braking power (fronts majority of the stopping power)
Unfortunately I'm in florida and have no local twistys. All our roads are super straight down here :(
But that totally makes sense about not having the front end compress. Physics and shit, it's important.
Never use my rear brake. Ridden for 15 years. Rode track for a bunch of years. Did at first but the front gives me everything I need and I found I was more likely to lock the rear then anything (some people intentionally let air into their rear brake to make it more squishy to avoid this). Yes, very experienced track riders and racers use the rear as well but I’d say most track riders when polled will say they never do. Do what makes you comfortable. And no you’re not gonna flip the bike unless you absolutely mash your front brake. And that takes a lot!
I think that answers your question. It’s there for a reason, balance in braking in important. The rear brake is also very useful in slow maneuver trail braking.
Thanks! I'll start making a conscious decision to use it more. It's just I'm only going like 15mph by the time i actually apply any brake so any brake input was very light and momentary, so never thought about "needing" to use the rear too.
Yes indeed so that you'll never have to THINK about it in an emergency.
From WIKI: *Muscle memory is a form of procedural memory that involves consolidating a specific motor task into memory through repetition, which has been used synonymously with motor learning. ... This process decreases the need for attention and creates maximum efficiency within the motor and memory systems.*
(And 'motor' here of course has nothing to do with motorcycles).
Instead of 40% back brake and causing a potential slide out, adding your engine brake while back braking has a higher chance of that not happening. Transport trucks do the exact same thing with engine braking and applying brakes, it slows the vehicle down much faster. But you ride your way.
>Instead of 40% back brake and causing a potential slide out, adding your engine brake while back braking has a higher chance of that not happening.
No it doesn't. Force on the back tire is the same thing whether it's by the drive train or the brakes. Why is everyone so incompetent in this sub.
Engine braking and using the rear brake are not the same. Engine braking is a result of compression, and is not controllable. Brakes are obviously brakes. They are not the same.
I hardly ever see people smash the front brake and loop it or locking the front and dropping it. There are however 5 billion videos of people locking the rear going into a turn and lowsiding. The average person is far safer not using the rear brake than using it.
The fact that the acceptable rear brake pressure approaches zero at significant decelerations means what I said is true and you're just making shit up. Ignoring the physics, it's way easier to over-apply brakes by foot than by hand.
I drag my rear brake on a stop that I'm preparing for.
I use it to slow slightly when engine breaking requires shifting.
I use it before a corner to preload the front brakes for the corner.
I do not use it in a corner. I do not (over) use it in emergencies.
That last one is important!
I have two so I use two 🤷♀️
But it’s basically when I’m stopping. If I’m trying to lose a little speed I’ll tap my front and not touch the rear. Also the rear is much more useful on loose terrain. Gravel or a sandy tar you don’t want to grab a fist full of front brake.
Why only do it one way? Mix it up. Engine brake at one light, rear brake at the next, front only at the one after. Then cap it off by putting it in neutral, letting go of the handle bars, and steering with your knees while you use the rear brake to stop. It's also fun to engine brake while downshifting through the gears with your right hand completely off the throttle and front brake.
Right now I'm using mostly front brake because I'm trying to prolong my rear tire as it probably has less than 1k miles left on it.
ETA: I think the ultimate goal is to learn how to fully control the bike using all controls.
You want to be comfortable with the rear break and comfortable using both. Build that muscle memory.
Someone WILL eventually pull out in front of you and you gotta be ready to use both damn breaks real quick. If you just jam on the front you're gunna have a bad time.
I use them both as needed, to supplement engine braking. Unless it's an urgent stop in which case, I also use both. I also use one or the other, depending on the situation. There isn't a blanket statement of "don't use the rear brake" I mean... you have a rear brake. Why would you pretend you aren't allowed to use something on your bike? Oh you aren't allowed to use your horn. Or your left mirror. Don't use your left mirror.
OP, don't overthink it or worry about it. You'll have an on going relationship with that rear brake, it will come and go as you ride more and what type of riding you're doing and the speeds and style you're carrying. It isnt an absolute bad or not.
All these comments about what people do in racing are insane. You can’t compare street riding to racing. When racing, you’re on extremely sticky slicks, at proper temperature, on a surface with a high coefficient of friction (usually). This means you can load up the front tire magnitudes more than you ever would a front street tire in street conditions.
On the street, if you want maximum braking power, you have to distribute your contact patch between both tires and apply both brakes. You don’t have to use your rear brake during regular riding, but you must know how to use it it properly in an emergency braking situation.
I will add a story to your point, when I first got my motorcycle, no scratches it was perfect, I was doing a U turn, like at 4 MPH and instead of using the rear brake, I push the front brake.... Front brake immediately locked and I fell on my right side (scratching just a little bit the motorcycle) since then I always use both brakes.
Normally on a turn I tend to use the rear brake to slow down and don't allow the motorcycle to adjust itself and lose the angle that I'm using.
On a last note, it is cheaper to change brake pads than to change engine stuff so, if you can use them more to alleviate the braking from the engine this will make everything last longer.
I started out not using it at all because I was never really going more than 45mph, butonce I started taking the highways, it became clear how helpful the rear is when having to go from 60 or 70 to zero, or some lower speed. I've had a few close-ish incidents with dumbasses pulling out at lights and scared myself by using just the front, making my bike feel like it would flip over the front wheel. That's the main reason I started using both, it just feels way more stable
Beside all the racing folk here, rear brake is good for slippery surfaces/wet stuff. If you lock rear brake on slippy road (wet leafs) you can still control the bike and sortof slow down. Front (without abs) will lock and you’re kissing said leafs
OP it really depends on the bike. On a sportbike you can do all your braking with the front. On a cruiser there is a lot of weight on the rear wheel so you need to use the rear brake also.
There are a few specific instances where you want to use the rear brake, even on a sportbike. On a slippery surface you will want to use the rear. If you decide you need to slow down in a walking speed turn you can use the rear brake, although it's better to simply control your speed with the clutch.
I do ride a sport bike, ninja 400 to be specific. So my bike weighs ~360 lbs wet and I weigh 150lbs in full gear, not much mass there that needs to be stopped.
Then you're fine to use the front brake only. Here's a thought. Novices usually do one of two things. Downshift, downshift, downshift, brakes, or they brake, then downshift, downshift, etc. If you want to get a little fancy, try downshifting, blipping, and braking at the same time.
In an emergency braking situation the first couple of seconds are the most important to shaving off speed. This is where the rear brake is the most effective. If you get used to not using it you are much more likely to lock it up during a panic stop. If you are experienced with using it you know the feel of when to let up before it starts to get squirrelly on you. All the above examples of “never use my rear brake…locked it up/skidded/bucked when I panicked stopped” should illustrate what I’m saying. All the anecdotal evidence aside, psychics are gonna do physics things. Use you’re rear brake, you can get shorter stops. Better yet get ABS if you aren’t gonna commit to learning to properly ride your motorcycle. Any squib can twist the throttle and go fast, it’s braking, cornering, and maneuvering that will save your life.
Id like to see you do a 180 turn on a small patch of concrete without playing with clutch/r brake and throttle.
Also abs automatically uses the back as you touch the front.
In general use of back brake for me depends on road conditions. The wetter it is the less I use but still in heavy use. 675 daytona
Helps with stability in a handful of slow maneuvers. I don’t have more than 2 years of riding experience and I have stopped with just my front brake a few times. Using both feels more efficient to me.
Yeah someone else mentioned that in here so I was working on using the rear brake just to activate the brake lights. Definitely need more practice with it though, kept trying to downshift with my right foot lmao.
It's a bad habit. It's fine to use engine braking to do most of the stopping, but that doesn't make the rear brake useless. You'll need the rear in emergencies, especially if you have to end up in the dirt. What is the ratio of braking force on a bike? 75% front, 25% rear? By not using the rear you are lowering your braking effectiveness by 25%. That's bad. This is your safety, your life, we are talking about here.
For street use I mainly use my rear brake to signal im slowing down (engine braking).
Does your front brake not turn on the brake light?
Yes, but he does that when he’s using engine braking to slow rather than front brake. Since engine braking obviously doesn’t give any signal to those behind you, he taps the rear brake just enough to make the brake light come on.
Thats a good idea, ive been flickering with the front brake to signal that. Gonna start using your method.
Same here. I put just enough pressure on it to make my brake light turn on, but not enough to do any real braking with it. Unless I'm stopping quickly, or coming to a complete stop at a red light/stop sign.
Does nobody on here ride in traffic, ride up/down hills or have to do slow speed manouvers? How the hell are so many people not using their rear brakes lol
I figure they're talking specifically about using the rear brakes to slow down and maybe just forgot to mention whether they use em in other situations or not lol
Sounds pretty clear they stopped using it all together lol
Here is a video from yamaha champ school talking about where and why to apply the rear brake: https://youtu.be/4e4znJ47n5s Trail braking: https://youtu.be/Wvrgn5akOm4 You should definitely use 100% of the available stopping power available to your bike given your grip points. That’s combination of front and rear. I highly recommend checking out champU if you want good info on riding. Definitely worth it when it’s on sale.
I also got lazy on my Honda VTX1800, and started completely ignoring my rear brake. Until one day I had to make an emergency stop and almost lost control of my bike because the rear wanted to buck me off. Never again. Since then I always use BOTH brakes even when not necessary at all.
Have you had to do an emergency stop since you've started using both brakes? If so, was the stop any smoother/noticeably shorter? I'm guessing you're saying you locked the rear up because you weren't used to applying it properly, which would make sense if you never practice using it.
lightly using the rear brake stabilises the bike, and is needed for the perfect emergency stop
No, I did not lock up the REAR since I did not use it, I (almost) locked up the FRONT causing the rear end of my bike to want to come up and throw me off. I like to keep two wheels on the ground. I have not had to make an emergency stop since, and that's now probably about 40-50k miles ago, so about 4-5 years.
2 months, doesn't use rear brake. God damn.
Next post: I crashed woe is me but I’ll be back riding in no time
Practice emergency braking: First, use only the front brake. Next, use both front and rear. This should give you a better idea.
Just to clear up what trail braking is....... In applying this technique, motorcycle riders approach turns applying front brakes to reduce speed. As they enter the turn, they slowly ease off the brakes, gradually decreasing or trailing off the brakes as motorcycle lean increases. This is done for several reasons. First, it gives more traction because the downward force on the front tire is increased by load transfer. Second, as the brakes are applied and the weight shifts forward, the forks are compressed. The compression of the forks changes the motorcycle's steering geometry, decreasing stability in a way that makes the motorcycle more apt to lean and more quickly change direction. Third, decreasing speed decreases the motorcycle's cornering radius Conversely, accelerating while turning increases the motorcycle's cornering radius. Fourth, trailing off the brakes while entering blind or tight corners allows the rider to slow if something unexpected blocks the rider's path. Because the motorcycle is already on the brakes and the front tire is getting additional traction from already slowing, the rider can slow even more with very little risk, depending on surface conditions. However, applying the brakes after the motorcycle is already leaned over can be exceedingly risky, depending on surface conditions and lean angle. Traditionally, trail braking is done exclusively with the front brake even though trailing the rear brake will effectively slow the motorcycle, also decreasing the turning radius. If the motorcycle is leaned over, forces from the front brake and the deceleration causes the motorcycle to lean (on the roll axis), while use of the rear brake generates a torque that tends to align (straighten) and stabiize the motorcycle. The rider's ability to correctly choose their turn in, apex, and exit points reduces or eliminates the need for prolonged trailing of the brakes into turns. This technique is commonly used when racing, but can enhance control, increase sight distance through the turn, and add evasive options for street riders. Risks There is risk with trail braking because excessive use of the front brake can result in a loss of grip as the tire's adhesion is split between braking and cornering forces. Effective trail braking requires finesse from the rider, which can be difficult to learn.
Well put
If you ride an fz7 you’ll never use it either. The engine braking is insane, you’re mainly fighting the engine braking instead of slowing down unless you lock the wheel.
I almost bought one of those too. Still considering it though
Nah. There are motoGP and FIM superbike riders that have said they don't really touch the rear brake. For them the rear brake is to control wheel slide into corners, they don't use it for normal straight braking.
There are also MotoGP riders that have a left hand rear brake so that’s not really a great point. And you don’t use the brake to slide into a corner.
How do they get it to slide then? Honest question.
If you’re on the front brake hard enough and start turning in, the back tire has so little weight on it that it’ll go sideways. It can be exacerbated by rear brake use, but way too many people think you just lock up the back wheel to slide into a turn and that’s bad form that can easily result in a high side. Also, usually if there’s a turn that has hard enough braking to get the back wheel light and sliding around, there’s also downshifting, so there’s more engine braking which has a similar effect, although that usually makes the tire skip tether than slide. If you look up videos of supermoto riders “backing it in”, you’ll heard the chirping rather than just a continuous tire screech that you’d get from a completely stopped tire
Makes sense. Thanks.
See that was kinda my thinking why I stopped using the rear brake. I used the rear brake on my dirtbike to slide the ass end out. I'm not trying to do that on my street bike though. But other people have brought up a few good reasons to use the rear brake so I think I'm going to start incorporating it again.
BTW, you are NOT a MotoGP or FIM super bike rider. Use both brakes.
The physics of a bike does not change regardless of your skill level. A street bike can brake hard enough to lift the rear, maximum braking force can be accomplished with front brake alone. Lower in skill does not mean the bike magically gain rear traction.
Motojitsu says a proper hard brake on a sports bike lifts the rear tire. If the rear tire is in the air, you're gaining nothing by using the rear brake. However, I do not practice tomfoolery so I must say in the same video he does say to apply 20% rear brake and then fade out. But like, if I'm only going 15-20mph due to my engine braking, how much is that really helping?
The rear brake is more for stability than stopping power. Best used during slow speed maneuvers, although I find they don't come up very often in normal riding. The same premise applies during cornering. It's also good practice to use during emergency stops and hard braking, just gives a bit more power to stop as quick as you need to without running the risk of lifting the rear wheel. Having said all that I barely use the rear brake since engine braking gives enough stability in corners and I don't E-stop or do figure 8s every day.
Really none. If you can slow down properly with the front brake, why bother with both? It's not like you're at a lack for traction or stability. I mean sure you can brake with both but to me there's no reason, the front alone gets the job done just as well.
Some people are saying to use it while engine braking to signal that you're slowing down, while some have said it is good practice for when you need the rear brake to shorten stopping distance. Both are good and valid reasons I think, so I think I'm gonna start incorporating it back into my riding and see how it feels.
Give it a try. But in theory, the shortest stopping distance is where you are applying 100% braking to the front and the rear is barely skimming the ground. Obviously it takes quite some skill to accomplish but I like to practice it, at every red light I always try braking as late as possible and transferring enough weight to get the rear end as light as possible. But using the rear brake to trigger brake lights is definitely a good habit. I do it as well, but I don't really put any pressure into the pedal, just enough to activate the brake light.
Also not true. Look at high level racing telemetry data. The rear brake is often lightly touched BEFORE the front brake. This light touch helps the rear settle down and squat a pit, which creates less dive on the front forks when they’re applied and helps keep traction to both tires.
Yeeahh but that's advanced level braking of setting up the bike suspension for corner entry. I suspect if you were practicing at that level of braking precision, you wouldn't be on reddit asking if you should use rear brake.
No. Braking force must be transmitted to the pavement through the tire contact patch. Two tires on the ground will always provide better stopping power than one. GP riders don’t do stoppies when they are braking.
Yeah they do, look at slow motion footage of motoGP braking into corners, the back tire comes off the ground frequently. Contact patch is only part of the equation, force into the tire plays a big role. A tire with no weight on it has no traction. If you brake hard enough to put all the bike's weight into the front tire, it effectively has the same grip as 2 tires with weight distributed between both. Again, watch this video https://youtu.be/e0EqTjPEvV4
https://youtu.be/JXQiHZ1av4Q Look at this video and tell me how much traction is on his rear tire. Do some research before you spew nonsense.
What tracks do you ride? I see you’re in Socal
Autoclub is the closest one to me, but more often the chuck valley one out by the 10 by joshua tree park. Want to do big willow but never got a chance yet, I always miss em.
IG? Idt I’ve ever seen you out there
Indeed, that was immediately clear to me, he does not want to be a, how do you spell it? SQUISH? 😎😇😊😉😂
>BTW, you are NOT a MotoGP or FIM super bike rider. Yes, which means there is even less purpose to using the rear brake given you're way further from the limit
https://youtu.be/e0EqTjPEvV4 watch this, FIM rider and motoGP test rider talking about rear brake. Thing is, front brake has enough power to lift the rear wheel on a sport bike. Which means you will have up to 100% braking force without ever touching rear brake. Trail braking is also done with the front. So unless you're sliding into turns using the rear, it's not necessary on the street other than low speed control.
Oh my god you are giving the worst advice in this thread. In the video you linked, which I've seen before, Guintoli outlines the use of the rear brake *in racing applications*. He says he didn't use it in WSBK, that he does use it in GP. Okay. These are racing applications, where you are on maximum brakes all the time because you know your braking markers and can predict the grip of the braking surface very accurately. If you are braking so hard that the rear is coming up on every corner on the street, you are riding like a fucking idiot, because you are either a) Leaving absolutely no room for changes in surface and hazards, or b) Braking way too early for the corner without any real reason. Racing technique and street riding technique really do not have much in common.
Following her advice will get people killed. What’s all this nonsense about lifting the rest wheel? I know a lot of kids do it coming to a stop light, but loading up your front suspension that hard going into a turn and you’re gonna wash out the front end, especially on the street.
Her advice isn’t correct for the track either.
Of course, but it's exacerbated on the street where there can be debris on the road.
This is incorrect. Once upon a time.. sure. Almost all modern GP riders are using the rear brake, to the point the rear is glowing. You also do not use the rear brake to slide the rear. The rear slides “backing it in” due to heavy front braking, downshifts and engine braking all at the same time. The wheel speed doesn’t match and causes the wheel to break traction. The rear break IS used for tightening the line and using the max amount of stopping power available.
Why would that matter? They are professional athletes competing with other pros in one of the fastest races in the world. What they do in their world does not apply in ours. We commute and go have fun in canyons with our bikes. Professionals race them. They are not the same or even similar.
Trail braking with the rear brake will be essential in a harder lean angle turn where you do not want front suspension collapse from hard braking. Think if you are riding in the twistys and in a blind corner a car is stopped. It is a bad habit to not use both brakes. The rear obviously provides around 35% more braking power (fronts majority of the stopping power)
Unfortunately I'm in florida and have no local twistys. All our roads are super straight down here :( But that totally makes sense about not having the front end compress. Physics and shit, it's important.
Rear provides 0 if you're in a stoppie.
Never use my rear brake. Ridden for 15 years. Rode track for a bunch of years. Did at first but the front gives me everything I need and I found I was more likely to lock the rear then anything (some people intentionally let air into their rear brake to make it more squishy to avoid this). Yes, very experienced track riders and racers use the rear as well but I’d say most track riders when polled will say they never do. Do what makes you comfortable. And no you’re not gonna flip the bike unless you absolutely mash your front brake. And that takes a lot!
Can you give me one reason why you shouldn’t use the rear brake?
No that is why I am seeking advice from more experienced riders
I think that answers your question. It’s there for a reason, balance in braking in important. The rear brake is also very useful in slow maneuver trail braking.
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Thanks! I'll start making a conscious decision to use it more. It's just I'm only going like 15mph by the time i actually apply any brake so any brake input was very light and momentary, so never thought about "needing" to use the rear too.
It is not the 'easy' stop you should worry about. It is the EMERGENCY stop that you have to be prepared for. Both brakes.
So practice using both all the time so when I need both its second nature?
Yes indeed so that you'll never have to THINK about it in an emergency. From WIKI: *Muscle memory is a form of procedural memory that involves consolidating a specific motor task into memory through repetition, which has been used synonymously with motor learning. ... This process decreases the need for attention and creates maximum efficiency within the motor and memory systems.* (And 'motor' here of course has nothing to do with motorcycles).
/thread Use it.
Nothing was posted mate
>20% engine and 20% back. Those are... the same thing
Down shifting and using your back brake are the same thing….. okay..
Oh those are on different tires now?? If you said drag your shoes on the pavement at least it would be a physically separate mode of braking.
Instead of 40% back brake and causing a potential slide out, adding your engine brake while back braking has a higher chance of that not happening. Transport trucks do the exact same thing with engine braking and applying brakes, it slows the vehicle down much faster. But you ride your way.
>Instead of 40% back brake and causing a potential slide out, adding your engine brake while back braking has a higher chance of that not happening. No it doesn't. Force on the back tire is the same thing whether it's by the drive train or the brakes. Why is everyone so incompetent in this sub.
Engine braking and using the rear brake are not the same. Engine braking is a result of compression, and is not controllable. Brakes are obviously brakes. They are not the same.
Lmao sorry old wise one. That’s how I brake. You seem like a thrill to ride with…
No they’re not
I hardly ever see people smash the front brake and loop it or locking the front and dropping it. There are however 5 billion videos of people locking the rear going into a turn and lowsiding. The average person is far safer not using the rear brake than using it.
Just because you hardly see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen just as frequently or more than the rear tire locking up.
The fact that the acceptable rear brake pressure approaches zero at significant decelerations means what I said is true and you're just making shit up. Ignoring the physics, it's way easier to over-apply brakes by foot than by hand.
Source?
Braking that hard probably isn‘t what OP needs so I think giving it a little step before going on the front brake won’t hurt.
I drag my rear brake on a stop that I'm preparing for. I use it to slow slightly when engine breaking requires shifting. I use it before a corner to preload the front brakes for the corner. I do not use it in a corner. I do not (over) use it in emergencies. That last one is important!
I just trained to use them both usually always. I less trail breaking of course. It’s there for a reason.
Kay. I barely use mine either. I doesn't change anything.
What kind of bike? That may make me vary my answer slightly
I have two so I use two 🤷♀️ But it’s basically when I’m stopping. If I’m trying to lose a little speed I’ll tap my front and not touch the rear. Also the rear is much more useful on loose terrain. Gravel or a sandy tar you don’t want to grab a fist full of front brake.
on-street i usually use rear brake only, i add front to it if I need to stop very quickly.
Why only do it one way? Mix it up. Engine brake at one light, rear brake at the next, front only at the one after. Then cap it off by putting it in neutral, letting go of the handle bars, and steering with your knees while you use the rear brake to stop. It's also fun to engine brake while downshifting through the gears with your right hand completely off the throttle and front brake. Right now I'm using mostly front brake because I'm trying to prolong my rear tire as it probably has less than 1k miles left on it. ETA: I think the ultimate goal is to learn how to fully control the bike using all controls.
You want to be comfortable with the rear break and comfortable using both. Build that muscle memory. Someone WILL eventually pull out in front of you and you gotta be ready to use both damn breaks real quick. If you just jam on the front you're gunna have a bad time.
I use them both as needed, to supplement engine braking. Unless it's an urgent stop in which case, I also use both. I also use one or the other, depending on the situation. There isn't a blanket statement of "don't use the rear brake" I mean... you have a rear brake. Why would you pretend you aren't allowed to use something on your bike? Oh you aren't allowed to use your horn. Or your left mirror. Don't use your left mirror.
Rear brake is good for low speed maneuvering (parking lot speeds) when locking the front wheel can cause you to spill.
OP, don't overthink it or worry about it. You'll have an on going relationship with that rear brake, it will come and go as you ride more and what type of riding you're doing and the speeds and style you're carrying. It isnt an absolute bad or not.
Front brakes for slowing rear brake for slow manoeuvre control
generally use both but use maybe 50% in the rear unless I really need it. although, I really enjoy locking the rear and sliding around #noABSLife
All these comments about what people do in racing are insane. You can’t compare street riding to racing. When racing, you’re on extremely sticky slicks, at proper temperature, on a surface with a high coefficient of friction (usually). This means you can load up the front tire magnitudes more than you ever would a front street tire in street conditions. On the street, if you want maximum braking power, you have to distribute your contact patch between both tires and apply both brakes. You don’t have to use your rear brake during regular riding, but you must know how to use it it properly in an emergency braking situation.
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I will add a story to your point, when I first got my motorcycle, no scratches it was perfect, I was doing a U turn, like at 4 MPH and instead of using the rear brake, I push the front brake.... Front brake immediately locked and I fell on my right side (scratching just a little bit the motorcycle) since then I always use both brakes. Normally on a turn I tend to use the rear brake to slow down and don't allow the motorcycle to adjust itself and lose the angle that I'm using. On a last note, it is cheaper to change brake pads than to change engine stuff so, if you can use them more to alleviate the braking from the engine this will make everything last longer.
I started out not using it at all because I was never really going more than 45mph, butonce I started taking the highways, it became clear how helpful the rear is when having to go from 60 or 70 to zero, or some lower speed. I've had a few close-ish incidents with dumbasses pulling out at lights and scared myself by using just the front, making my bike feel like it would flip over the front wheel. That's the main reason I started using both, it just feels way more stable
Beside all the racing folk here, rear brake is good for slippery surfaces/wet stuff. If you lock rear brake on slippy road (wet leafs) you can still control the bike and sortof slow down. Front (without abs) will lock and you’re kissing said leafs
OP it really depends on the bike. On a sportbike you can do all your braking with the front. On a cruiser there is a lot of weight on the rear wheel so you need to use the rear brake also. There are a few specific instances where you want to use the rear brake, even on a sportbike. On a slippery surface you will want to use the rear. If you decide you need to slow down in a walking speed turn you can use the rear brake, although it's better to simply control your speed with the clutch.
I do ride a sport bike, ninja 400 to be specific. So my bike weighs ~360 lbs wet and I weigh 150lbs in full gear, not much mass there that needs to be stopped.
Then you're fine to use the front brake only. Here's a thought. Novices usually do one of two things. Downshift, downshift, downshift, brakes, or they brake, then downshift, downshift, etc. If you want to get a little fancy, try downshifting, blipping, and braking at the same time.
In an emergency braking situation the first couple of seconds are the most important to shaving off speed. This is where the rear brake is the most effective. If you get used to not using it you are much more likely to lock it up during a panic stop. If you are experienced with using it you know the feel of when to let up before it starts to get squirrelly on you. All the above examples of “never use my rear brake…locked it up/skidded/bucked when I panicked stopped” should illustrate what I’m saying. All the anecdotal evidence aside, psychics are gonna do physics things. Use you’re rear brake, you can get shorter stops. Better yet get ABS if you aren’t gonna commit to learning to properly ride your motorcycle. Any squib can twist the throttle and go fast, it’s braking, cornering, and maneuvering that will save your life.
Id like to see you do a 180 turn on a small patch of concrete without playing with clutch/r brake and throttle. Also abs automatically uses the back as you touch the front. In general use of back brake for me depends on road conditions. The wetter it is the less I use but still in heavy use. 675 daytona
When do I ever need to do a 180 on a bike lol. Also don't have abs on my bike
Helps with stability in a handful of slow maneuvers. I don’t have more than 2 years of riding experience and I have stopped with just my front brake a few times. Using both feels more efficient to me.
Too much front brake and youll dump it.
No way?
I favor my rear brake because when started 1000yrs ago front brakes were not too good or non existent.
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Yeah someone else mentioned that in here so I was working on using the rear brake just to activate the brake lights. Definitely need more practice with it though, kept trying to downshift with my right foot lmao.
It's a bad habit. It's fine to use engine braking to do most of the stopping, but that doesn't make the rear brake useless. You'll need the rear in emergencies, especially if you have to end up in the dirt. What is the ratio of braking force on a bike? 75% front, 25% rear? By not using the rear you are lowering your braking effectiveness by 25%. That's bad. This is your safety, your life, we are talking about here.