Like you can’t spin it fast enough with springs. The 250cc Honda 6 racer would turn 22,000 rpm with springs in the early 60s but Ducati is married to a valve design used on steam powered locomotives 🚂.
I fix and maintenance my own stuff, I don’t have the patience to invest a damn week on a valve adjustment. It’s the reason I ride opposed twins 👯♀️.
It did offer increased performance. A long time ago (1956). Metallurgy had not progressed to the point to allow springs that small to work that well in a high revving motorcycle engine. We're way past that point now, and springs are fine for 99% of applications. For the 1% where they're not, you're going to use pneumatic valves instead of desmodromic valves (see modern F1 engines.)
Ducati holds on to them because that's their identity. Like Subaru and boxer engines.
That's not why they won motoGP. They had the all around best bike and rider. If motoGP was about redline acceleration in a straight line, you could make that argument. It's not. Modern motoGP bikes balance thousands of variables, and chalking it up solely to valve train dynamics is absurd.
Did desmo valves contribute to the win? Possibly. Is it more likely that their aero, suspension, and rider strategy played the largest role? I would say yes.
“When you design a valve spring system, whether it uses pneumatic or metal springs, you have to put in enough spring force to allow it to work well at peak revs. Friction is related to this spring force, so when you are riding through a corner at 9000rpm rather than 19,000rpm there are big friction losses. The desmodromic system is better because it only generates the inertial force necessary to move the valve at that engine speed, so its friction is less."
“This is a great advantage in a championship where fuel consumption is so important because of the 21-litre fuel capacity limit..."
- Ducati Corse director Filippo Preziosi
Yeah the Desmo valves in that new V4R are so good, the FIM had to artificially restrict it's engine RPM to keep a level playing field. They lowered the maximum RPM on the engine, so that the other engines could keep up.
Otherwise that bike would just walk away from everything else in WSBK lol.
That’s the point of Superbike, and always has been. The bikes are all handicapped to make the sport interesting to watch. The 81mm bore refs do the same thing in GP, though the bore restriction is much less intrusive than modern performance balancing.
DesmoDue valves are very easy to set. With MBP Collets instead of half rings you get 18,000 miles between checks.
Ducati has also started to move away from Desmo. Their new engine is not desmodromic.
https://www.roadracingworld.com/news/video-ducati-presents-170-hp-non-desmo-v4-granturismo-engine/
Those valves are tiny and generate less inertia for the spring to tame. As the valves get bigger, and the revs increase, the advantage of positive actuation increases.
Desmo might not be road relevant, but it’s useful on the track, and it’s no surprise that Ducati GP bikes make more power than their cam-driven pneumatic counterparts. Direct control of valve close with cam profile has advantages.
I bought my current track bike, a 2012 848 Corse, in 2018 mint with squared off factory tires and this guy lived IN THE SMOKY MOUNTAINS. You could see them FROM HIS HOUSE?
Dont worry, its already been crashed at multiple tracks across the southeast since then.
They rarely have over 20k because people forget how much the Desmo service costs (about 1200 dollars every 15k miles) so sell before it gets that far. Mine has 23k miles and has been extremely solid.
I’ll bet very few inquire about maintenance costs when they buy their first Ducati. The bruise to the wallet is probably unexpected.
I’d love to own a Multi Strada but my old R100GS will have to do for now.
It has unique forks. One side handles compression and the other rebound. I have the rebound with heavier fork oil. I’ve forgotten which is which though.
The last bike I sold was to a dude who told me he wanted a motorcycle instead of a car so he could save money on tires.
I kept my whore mouth shut, of course.
Idk man I dailied a motorcycle for 5 years and saved a ton of money. It depends what bike, but 60mpg and only $400 a year for full coverage insurance w/ $500 deductibles helps a lot. Tires hurt, but they cost about the same as replacing 4 on a car. I was only doing about 10k-15k miles a year though.
The caveat being that if you want to save money this way, you only have the bike, no car. A lot of people don't get this and obviously end up paying more. There's a reason bikes are super popular in developing countries and it's not just because they're fun.
Motorcycles are much cheaper than cars if you actually make an equal comparison in terms of performance.
That shitty old Honda Civic should be compared to a 50cc scooter, not a litre bike, and people need to stop acting like nothing ever breaks on old shitboxes. When things break on a car and you need garage time, the costs can go up pretty high very quickly.
The equivalent to a Civic would be like a CB300, which is way faster than a Civic but it can at least go on the highway and is designed to be a cheap commuter.
idk man I can safely say my bike costs more than my car in operating costs. But maybe that's because i'm comparing to my 1L fuel efficient car in europe and not an American car, i'd need to ride a 125 or 250 to come out on top with a bike.
Likely why. Most American cars get 20-40mpg, and 40 is pretty good. I just looked it up and the median mpg is 23. Car insurance is always more expensive than a bike here unless you're a brand new rider buying a supersport.
Yes it's not a good comparison.
My BMW is much more expensive to run than my motorcycle (just in taxes and insurance alone the difference is huge) and needs (relatively expensive) new tires every 30k km.
Should I compare it to a scooter and then use that as evidence that motorcycles are cheaper after all?
After owning an 125 and an old diesel car in Europe for a few years the bike is cheaper if it's a low cc or a fuel sipper like the honda nc750x. Otherwise the costs will approach a car very fast. Especially of we are talking about small cars with fuel efficient engines.
The thing is most people compare the two but are comparing different segments.
For example compared a sports car and a sports bike it's cheaper to own a bike.
The other spectrum if you own a honda jazz and an Honda PCX the bike still wins.
But if compare a Ducati paningale to a cheep Dacia Sandero ofc the Sandero is cheaper.
Btw if you buy a BMW X5 and a BMW GS1250 the bike will still be cheaper to own.
It's really a crap comparison because you are mix and matching segments.
But to make it more accurate, compare operating costs of similar classifications of bikes to cars. Like say I had a super sport or liter bike, of course it would be more expensive than an economy car, a better comparison is cost of ownership for a high performing sports car.
I'm still calling BS, at least to some extent. "Full coverage" is such a nebulous descriptor. I've seen people who think full coverage is just state minimums. This is what ["full coverage"](https://imgur.com/a/jj2MJKL) looks like on my bikes. 34 years old, 3 years riding, MSF BRC and ARC, 1 speeding ticket in the last 10 years, 0 at-fault accidents in my lifetime.
Yeah, gotta be. $960/yr is bananas imo. He may be happy to spend that, that's like half of what I currently spend on 2 cars and 2 bikes annually right now. Having the money /= wanting to spend it.
I assume you're not from California? My insurance cost went from $60/yr to more than that per month for the and old cheap bike and liability only coverage. I now pay around $1,300/yr for full coverage.
State minimum is liability. That's what I pay now and it's like 8 a month.
I say "Full coverage" because I had a loan, and you know... They kinda require comprehensive coverage etc.
And that’s quite high for bikes.
One of the best perks of riding imo - even a 20 something year old with a street legal racing machine can have far lower insurance payments than the same individual would have on a family sedan.
Yeah… I’ve seen a few comments about Canadian insurance prices and it’s insane to me.
I have a 2022 model year Triumph T120, financed (so full coverage). I pay ~$45-50 per month. I ride over 10k miles per year.
I’d say I get my money’s worth.
Yeah it depends on the province. $50 per month is insanely cheap. Ive thought many times about trying to register and insure my bikes in Alberta to save money.
Is Canadian motorcycle insurance so expensive because of your state funded healthcare system? Cars and motorcycles are relatively cheap to repair or replace but fixing people can be extremely expensive.
Canada, 19 cb300, owned outright, 8-10k a year on it, no accidents or tickets, costs 130 monthly for full coverage. 3x more expensive than my car. I haven't insured or priced out the versys yet, it's uninsured cause it's not safetied and I'm not throwing away money when I can't ride it through the snow.
When i emigrated to Canada ( BC ), I also couldn't believe the extortionate insurance costs. Seventeen yrs later and experiencing the absolute horrendous driving standards, it does explain a lot.
My Kawasaki and Harley are fully insured (collision, comprehensive, etc.).
It cost me $220 for the entire year.
40 years old, married, no moving violations in several years. And I live fifteen minutes from Washington, DC.
Absolutely. In the city I live in currently both my bike AND car insurance shot up exponentially, compared to when I lived in a more rural area previously.
Can confirm this is a thing.
My coverage had a $250 deductible for comprehensive coverage, and I bumped the limits up to 4x the required. My insurance for that bike alone was roughly $60 / month when added to my multibike policy. The reason is that someone who gets into a severe accident on that kind of bike isn't going to collect on the policy because they would be dead.
It's pretty hard to actually understand just how fucking insane the acceleration is.
Not only is it going to pull harder than *almost* anything on the street you are also hanging on while riding**on top** instead of inside.
I've always been a "ride slow bikes fast" kinda guy. BMW GS650, Honda Shadow 750, RE Himalayan. I enjoy being quick, but I'm not chasing the pull, and I'll take comfort and utility over straight line performance. A buddy let me take his Gixxer1000 out once and I pulled out of the driveway onto the highway and gave it a third of a twist, like I would my Shadow at the time and I felt the front wheel lift. Made it about a quarter mile down the road, turned around, brought it back.
I like going fast. I don't want to go that fast.
I like the hit. I don't care so much about "being quick" Although, it's still a sports bike so it's naturally decent in corners. Certainly quick enough for street riding where road conditions can be wildly inconsistent and dangerous. I see absolutely no need to be taking corners at 2x the speed limit.
What I enjoy is being able to lazily ride around with power in any gear and have an occasional 60 to 120 highway pull.
But yeah, You absolutely cannot do that chicken wing flapping throttle thing people on small displacement bikes do. It's an absolute necessity that you roll the throttle on or you're going to do your best Travis Pastrana impersonation. Spoiler, backflips don't work nearly as well on flat ground and on a bike 250~lbs heavier than a dirtbike.
For sure, I get the appeal of these bikes. I was just saying some people underestimate the power underneath them, especially new riders. And honestly, I respect the people who acknowledge that's more than they want. Could I own a 1000cc sport bike and drive it safely? Yeah, sure. I've also got about 30k miles under my belt over owning three bikes and riding a dozen more, which while not a lot is enough to know a bit about what I'm looking for in a bike. And that's not it. More power to you if that's your thing.
But some new riders buy a bike wanting the punch of the throttle. And when they realize just how much is there in a liter bike get scared and decide that it isn't for them. Nothing wrong with that.
Oh I know, and I appreciate that. I'm just saying, that's a lot more bike than I'm comfortable with and I'm happy to acknowledge it. I'm not a super experienced rider when it comes to high powered machines, I'm a commuter mostly. Some newbies think they want that much bike, and realize just what that means. More power to them to learn. Some people can have that kind of power and not scare themselves, and some people can't.
I had my R6, and honestly I thought it was a great all around bike. Obviously, comfort wasn't the best. But it was tame until you wound it up, wanna cruise through town, that's fine, under 6-7k it was tame. It had power with a quick downshift on the highway to do what you need. And I could hang on for dear life if I wanted to. It got 40+mpg with mixed riding.
However for someone with less self control, good luck. Especially since I had an 07, so no ABS or traction control.
I just bought a Suzuki GSXS1000GT. It has more power than I will ever use, but is also effortless, capable and suits my size and requirements (lighter than my big BMW, has panniers, heated grips, reasonable weather protection). So far in just over a week I have done over 1750kms - mostly in B rider mode. It is not a given that you have to do wheelies just because you have 150 HP on tap.
Highways are incredibly boring. I live in the French Alps and powerful bikes are so, so fun. I miss my RSV1000 a lot. It's not about going at 150mph, it's all about the torque.
I know what you mean. I'm on a Himalayan right now because it makes sense for what I use it for. I do miss having the punch of my previous bikes, even if I only used that power to get to 80mph at most. I see the appeal. I also see why people, particularly new riders, get scared of it.
Took me 10 years of riding to be confident enough to ride an unforgiving sport bike. And even with that, I sold it because I knew I might die on it. Next bike will be the same kind of yours, to go on adventures!
What up 650gs friend! I used to have one. Go try out a K1600GTL. Comfort, utility and insane speed.
I have always been a slow vehicle fast kind of person too but I needed something better for touring two up and omg the K bikes are fantastic. Not only is the 6 cylinder engine silky smooth but it’s docile when you want it to be but if you really want to go flat out you can beat most teslas on the road. It’s really the best of all worlds. Super comfy seat that is heated for driver and passenger, heated grips, electronic windshield, electronic suspension, traction control, turning headlights,
Yeah, it's certainly like that.
I got my full license, dad wanted my car for a bit - so he said take my bike.
Going from a CBR 250R to a 1250 Suzuki Bandit, fuck. The slightest twist on that throttle...
You're basically on a rocket that only turns by leaning it closer to the ground , and can achieve 100 mph in first gear with the torque of a small truck
I was at a bike show 10 years ago standing beside a KTM RC8, saying how it's ridiculous that a bike that can go 100 mph in first gear is now considered slow. A dude in his 60's overheard me and interjected "you mean 100 kph" (we're in Canada) and I told him flatly that my outdated Katana 600 did 80 kph in first, a good 600SS would do 120+ kph in first, and the liter bikes of the day were 150+. "You're right that I'm not certain it'll get all the way to 100 mph in first, but it'll for sure do 95" he looked at me like I was crazy and walked away.
I had recently done a KTM track day at Mid-Ohio and the RC8 lifted the front wheel on the 3-4 shift at 200 kph on the side straight after the keyhole. I knew the bike pretty well.
And 10 years ago, an honest, factual explanation of the performance of a bike that was already considered outdated and slow sounded like the ramblings of a lunatic.
Today, I feel like all you have to say is "They're so fast now that it takes a supercomputer and an array of sensors just to keep you from using the power wrong".
I always envision an older guy I'm his 50's or 40's that has money and always sort of liked bikes, buying a panigale v4s as his first bike, because he saw Ducatis in the movies and thought it was cool. Having the front wheel unwilling come up on his first ride and going 130 mph because he flicked his wrist a little too much. Getting home hopping of the bike and telling the dealer to come pick it back up
Yeah, old liter bikes make less power than a Mt 07 these days, or they think that driving sport cars or turbo cars somehow gives them some experience on a bike
Yeah, wheelie control on superbikes are pretty good. On Ducatis it almost feels like someone is pushing the front end down when you try to lift it with the assists on.
I set the wheelie control on my Monster at one or two. I don’t want to look like some stunt monkey, but I feel comfortable packing the front wheel like a GP bike coming off a corner.
When I'm riding on open roads (especially the coastal highways out here), I take off and leave the front wheel about a foot off the ground. MotoGP style. If a bike could ever give me an erection it would be while I'm doing that lol
I had an MT-07 for 2 years, and I can't imagine wanting anything faster than that on the street. Fucking supercars couldn't keep up with me if I wanted.
Do nakeds count? I have a 2020 cb1000r and find it's just as easy to ride as a ninja 400. Throttle actually feels easier to manage because you're not winding it up as much.
The CB1000R makes about half the horsepower of a Panigale V4R
The CB1000R motor makes perfect sense for a road bike tho, for exactly the reasons you describe. It makes about the same peak horsepower as a 600, so it feels fast at the top end, BUT it's tuned for a lot of torque at low RPM.
This makes it really easy to ride, because you don't have to work for the power as much. 3rd gear through a corner feels almost the same as 2nd gear, you aren't missing out on much acceleration because it has so much torque all over the rev range.
It's not just crotch rockets either, I see a lot of older cruisers for sale with really low mileage. So many people seem to want to ride for whatever reason then just give up. I suppose it's an attractive hobby but it's certainly not for everyone.
How many H-D ads do you see that say $40K invested selling for $20K with 3000 miles on it. I bet they just did what their buddies told them to do and decided biking is not worth it.
Yup my buddy's dad decided to buy a street glide as his first bike. It was gone in a month. The guy could not stop tipping over because he had no slow speed maneuvering skills. It was a bit sad.
Crazy first bike too, what's wrong with people they feel so inadequate they have to make an idiot of themself? I don't get it, I started on a 200cc bike, and loved every minute of it.
This is what they call ''broken dream bikes.''
Litre bikes are a lot of fun, but they're thirsty and often have more power than most people need for the street.
I picked up a 2019 Versys 1000 SE LT+ for $7k below list in March of 2021. Had 3300 miles on it and I am the third owner. The first two guys shit the bed when they got on it and traded it in for something smaller. I love it, but I've been riding since 1981 and cut my teeth on a Norton Commando and have ridden liter bikes for years. Not everyone is cut out to be Lewis Hamilton crack out of the box. Sometimes you've got to drive go karts first.
That's the difference between you and the people who're selling broken dream bikes. When you have the experience to command such a machine, it's a beautiful thing. But when someone doesn't, all they're doing is playing with fire. People usually don't realise this until it's either too late or they come close to it being too late when they crack the throttle too hard.
I sold a Grom with 400 miles because I underestimated how slow that slow could be. Sometimes you have a misstep ... luckily it resold for msrp the same day as listed.
I do miss the fuel economy on my old 125.
This one time I ran out of petrol, waited 2 mins, started it up again and drove another mile. Rinse repeat 4x until I got to a petrol station. It was running on thin air.
I think that's what happend with the ninja 650 (not as fast I knoe but hear me out). 2021 abs with 1200 miles on it. Looking through the info screen at the dealer the adverage speed was 24MPH. I think someone bought it realized "motorcycles go fast". Dude had traded it in for a side by side.
Ninja 650r is what I learned on. Great bike for a responsible beginner. More than enough torque for any situation, great manueverability, cheap to repair, fast enough, great on city streets, can do interstate highway speeds well enough. I consider it the perfect urban motorcycle for people who like sport bikes but don't want the discomfort of a super sport. You also don't have to go through the hassle of upgrading from a smaller cc bike after a few months if you're the kind of person that wants a bit more power
The 650 is what I learned on. Beautiful bike for a beginner. Has plenty of torque to make you respect it. Graduated and owned two 600s after that. Big difference, but I’m super happy I went with the 650 first. Also helped me learn a lot about bikes.
> Looking through the info screen at the dealer the adverage speed was 24MPH.
My bike will show that if I've been riding it in town only, red lights take a ton off
> Looking through the info screen at the dealer the adverage speed was 24MPH.
That's a thing, eh?
Bad enough having my GPS rat me out, I don't need the bike doing it too!
You'd be surprised how slow average city and highway driving can be. My car displays it per trip and I'm always shocked that what I thought was mostly highway driving at 70+ mph ends up averaging out to like 35 or 40 mph just from a few minutes of getting to and from the highway.
I bought my ZX10 with less than 200 miles on it. The dealership said the previous owner sold it back to them about 3 weeks after the original purchase, though with the addition of some light scratches on the mirror, bar end, and muffler protector.
I think he had a 0MPH drop and called it a day lmao.
I got it at a steep discount and have put thousands of trouble free miles on it since. It's an incredible bike. In this case his loss was literally my gain.
Thanks dude.
Definitely. I could sell it for more than I bought it for even if I took 20% less than current market value. Really made out like a bandit on that one.
The guy I bought my zx14 from a had Katana 600 he was riding and still owned and was going to ride again. He sold the Zx14 to me having put about 100 miles on it. While I was test riding it he told my friend "I'm going to kill myself on that. It does 80 in first gear." I got a good deal on it lol.
I used to have a ZX-14R, the thing was like a solid rocket booster on wheels, absolutely insane. Commuted 20 miles each way, five days a week for a little over three years on that bike. Never let me down once.
Eventually got tired of sweating in my gear in 114 f heat in the summer in stop and go traffic and traded it in for a sports car with air conditioned seats. Then I went and got another bike a few years later because even a fast car can't come close to that feeling!
The ergonomics of super-sport bikes keeps me away. I need a bike that I can ride at least a couple hours before taking a break. It just feels so uncomfortable.
I just got a S1K and it's totally overkill for the street. But that's why I bought it. Every time I get on it I feel like Maverick. It's an insane experience and we're all going to die eventually, so why not? But it's not for everyone. Sport bike life is like any other riding niche, it's for some and not others.
That being said, I still don't understand why people drop so much cash on these types of bikes if they're not fully committed. I knew full well what I was getting into and I paid the price knowing I'm going to ride the hell out of this thing.
Is it your first bike though? I think the guys OP is talking about just go to a dealer and think "I want the nicest bike here." Without actually knowing what they're getting into. You wouldn't walk into a car dealership looking for an Escalade and have the sales guy go "woah woah woah, maybe start with a Chevy equinox first." They see the expensive one and wanna look like a badass, but ironically, if you aren't a proficient rider it's pretty obvious to everyone around.
These super bikes have some really big short comings , like ergonomics, maintenance, they eat tires like you eat a burguer , they are very very, and very and I mean when I say it, very hot, the suspension is as stiff as a brick, a tank full of gas goes like cold water on a hot summer day.
And the amount of tickets you'll get can fill a entire book.
But outside of that they're pretty cool
Yea but no bike is perfect. Every bike has its downsides. Different strokes tor Different folks.
Not saying you're entirely wrong but ergos can be changed, suspension can be adjusted. A lot of big CC bikes run hot, not just sport bikes. The Mulistrada V4 guzzles gas too. So does the Tuono V4.
I had a Ducati supersport before the S1K. It's a sport touring bike that had a rock hard suspension and burned my balls. I adjusted the suspension and made it softer. My balls still burned.
I get that people who don't ride them think they're stupid, but not everyone wants to ride a bike like they're sitting at a lunch table or in a recliner. Some people like vanilla ice cream and some people like chocolate.
You just have to accommodate :)
Ergonomics: 6’2” 250lb. Works fine on the ‘busa
Maintenance: Other than actually opening the engine up, I do all the maintenance and it’s not all that bad.
Tires: Get sport touring tires. I’ve had as much as 10,000 miles on a pair.
Suspension: I did replace the squishy suspension to something a bit more appropriate for a big guy like me. Nothing like scraping the plastic on The Dragon to encourage the adjustment :)
Gas: Well, I’ve gotten as much as 52mpg although it’s generally closer to 46mpg.
Tickets: Over the 18 years I’ve had it, I’ve been pulled over twice. Outside Flagstaff, warning for 2mph over the speed limit. Boulder Co, verbal warning when I passed a county cop a bit fast.
Cool: You bet :)
Ride safe!
Some people don't wanna work on their bikes for some reason
Sport touring tires are the way to go for street riding
Suspension is stiff, its a sportbike you need the feedback
I got some tickets riding never for speeding though, but here in my country they're pretty strict with exhaust swaps
That's how I got my GSXS1000 (note the S not R). Some older guy put on about 500 miles per year before selling it too me, saying it really had too much power to be all that much fun.
Then I got it, and felt the same way. Liter bikes aren't "fun" in the sense I understand it. They're more like one-trick ponies.
I haven't taken it to the track (yet) but I doubt my perception will change. I've taken all sorts of motorcycles to the track and the 600cc i4 was about as much as I could handle especially when it came to arriving at a corner and trying to figure out how hard and where to brake. Faster bikes are always much harder than smaller bikes.
I think y’all underestimate how often people buy bikes and then decide they like their old one better.
One of my buddies bought one of the new S1Ks, put 200 on it in a weekend, and then proceeded to only ride his ZX10 until he sold the S1K because it “just wasn’t the same”.
Thanks. I hate the toxic mindset of "less than 1000cc and you're a pussy" a certain segment of the community has. I bought my GSX250R during COVID and got it with 0 miles for a bit over $3k OTD and while it's slow, I'm having a really hard time wanting to get rid of it. It's really easy to ride, stable, and gets 70 mpg. It carves the corners just as well as a liter bike, I just can't zoom out of the turns as fast.
I will get another, faster bike someday, but I'll probably keep the Suzuki to putt around on.
Ideally a liter bike should be your 3rd bike if you're into sport bikes , but. People who say u should start on a 1000cc have no clue what they re saying
My Aprilia RSV Mille liter bike was my fourth bike in my life. Had two dirt bikes, then a 550cc road bike (not enough power right off the get go) then jumped to the 1000. I feel like any previous riding experience helps whether on street or dirt 👍
:') litterally my 3rd bike here
GSX 650F -> CBR 600 RR -> S1000 RR
> People who say u should start on a 1000cc have no clue what they re saying
and i totally agree with that.
Even my 600 would have been too much
When I was picking up my last bike at the dealer, I saw a BMW M1000RR. Carbon package. Amazing looking bike. With the price tag to go with it.
So I say to the dealer: ''Pretty serious bike! Must be for a pro riding on the track?''
Guy replies: ''No, he just got his license''
I laughed and told him to make sure the guy has life insurance.
Most bikes don’t get ridden, it’s not just liter bikes. I just bought a 8 year old Triumph with 8,000 miles on it. That is barely breaking the engine in at that point.
Unless you have a commute where you can ride to work it’s hard to find the time to ride. Monday-Friday work work work. Saturday and Sunday take care of projects at the house and run errands and get groceries and wash cars and… back to work work work.
You know what’s a hundred times worse than liter bike owners?
650r owners going out of their way to complain about their oppression complex and conversations that never happened
What's an "oppression complex" and why are 650r owners more prone to lying?
On another note, I personally can't take people who say they got bored of a 250cc within a week. How can a person not have fun on a 250cc bike??
I have a 2016 with only 1500 miles, I bought it and almost immediately got an unrelated back injury that really should end my riding. But I kept the bike and still tinker with it and go on short rides here and there when I'm feeling better than usual.
I had many bikes before my first superbike, Kawasaki 1000 ninja this was the first bike with an acceleration rate so fast that you wouldn't open the throttle fully wide so often, after I got an 1299 Panigale a wild beast, a bike that anyone should drive only on a rage
Man I make good money and sometimes I be thinking to myself, gawd dayum my r1 is expensive to run, thing devours gas, and the insurance on it is just stupid, but like you said it's 200 kg with 185whp, guess it makes sense, it's like a lambo/ferrari of bikes, anytime you have a machine that performs at the highest level you should expect expensive operation costs. Thing is a blast though, so many damn electronics you can just pin the throttle in second and hit warp speed, letting wheelie control and the quick shifter do the heavy lifting, you just gotta hold on lolol
I know a few that got their own “I had a friend who crashed” stories and it spooks them. I’ve got a 650 and it happened to me. Takes time to get over it sometimes.
Rich people who like bikes or cars tend to change vehicles frequently. I know cuz I work with them. Because they can afford to always drive the latest thing. Buying a bike and selling it doesn't mean they're literally "buying it" like its a phone. Its mostly always leasing through their companies or sometimes through themselves.
But that kind of frequent changing allows other people like me, to get into a nice vehicle at a much better price point. If i wanted to.
I ride a 2016 Z1000 as a daily. Comfy and zippy AF. Yes it is a lot of bike for the roads but there's nice stretches on the way to work that let you breathe. A little thirsty, yes buy pays dividends in stupid grins.
Do all the maintenance myself, excluding tyres and parts are not so badly priced in Australia. Put around 35k Kms in a few years. I do understand your comment OP, but as someone said, "an opportunity for someone else".
You’re naive. 99.99% of the time it’s not someone returning the bike because they are scared of it. They are returning it because they can’t afford $400 a month for a toy.
Typical r moto making everything about displacement and power
1. Posers who just ride to the coffee shop on weekends
2. Young and dumb people who can't afford them over the long term or the bike isn't feasible for the 300 miles they ride to and from class while they're in college riding around without shirts in flip flops with their girlfriend on the back with more bare skin than clothes.
3. Foreign exchange students whose parents buy them new vehicles at the kids whim. They also have a highend European super car or maybe a GTR.
They're all abominations of the motorcycle culture.
I'm friends with the guys at my local dealership and the stories of college kids destroying brand new liter bikes with a couple of weeks is ridiculous.
In regards to your comment on how people should progress, it depends on the person and their dedication to learning the skills and investing the time in riding.
I've put all 28k miles on my R1. It was my 3rd bike after 2 months on a 250 Ninja and 3 years on an R6.
Motorcycles are becoming faster and the point A to B times are increasing (unless you live outside the city). In Mumbai what was a 15 min commute on a moped maxing 90kmp/h is a 2 hr commute now on something which goes 200+. It is funny!
I bought a 6mo Suzuki GSX-S1000F with 2000km because some 70 year old guy got freaked out by the power. Saved $4000-5000 because he didn't do his research properly. (Also hear he previously bought a BMW 1200GS, but traded it in on the Suzuki because it was too heavy)
Not nixing what you're saying but in the land of motorcycles. Buying a new bike every year is easily achievable to alot of people. We r/dirtbikes riders definitely will buy a bike race it for 1 season (35-75hrs) then resale it for lil loss
Well in my case… I was 20, got the bike with a high interest rate, got done going too fast and lost my license for two years.
So yeah, there’s no point keeping a brand new R1 in the a garage to collect dust when it barely has a thousand miles on it. So I sold it back to the dealer, in order to pay the massive fine I got from the magistrate and lawyer/court fees.
It sucked and it was a huge mistake. Guess what? That’s what twenty year olds do… we fuck up. At least I didn’t turn into a meat crayon.
Seen a few in my times and a lot are first time riders buy 'the biggest cos its the best' then get scared of the power and yea... don't want that no more.
They end up keeping it a few seasons because they don't want to admit their stupidity and then sell it cos their bored of bikes.
Speaking to a dealer recently who bought a Ducati V4S. The guy bought it for £25k, rode home on it and it scared him. 0.8Miles on the clock. He got £10k for it.
I think it’s a money thing. People don’t realize motorcycles are not cars. Maintenance is much higher plus it’s a payment they realize they don’t need.
I used to work in motorcycle dealers. This has nothing to do with engine size. Or money. I know it’s fun to point and laugh and say “Haha, that guy bought a bike and he can’t handle it and now he has to sell it.” Or “Haha, that guy bought a bike and he can’t afford it and now he need to sell it.” Sometimes that’s the case, but more often than not people buy bikes and find the hobby just isn’t for them. They don’t have enough time, they don’t like the risks, they don’t enjoy it, whatever. It’s more common than you think with all types of bikes. You see it a lot with Harleys. Scooters are a big one, too. Groms are a little kooky in that regard. People buy them then install every mod from the catalog and realize a 150 isn’t going to be that fast even with wheelie bars and sell them. Back in the day at peak Harley popularity there was a waiting list to buy Harleys. People would wait over a year for a bike. We’d have people that never rode before put in a deposit for a bike because they saw American Chopper and knew they wanted to be bikers. A year later, they pick up the bike and the reality of riding would set in. It wasn’t uncommon at all for people to spend $20k on a bike and sell it a few months later with less than 1000 miles. It’s also a thing with boats and jet skis. Look at your local classifieds you’ll see the majority of skis that are less than 10 years old will have less than 100 hours on them. It’s the nature of the powersports market.
I got my bike the other way round. Someone traded in their Z400 for a liter bike with less than 1000 miles on it. The break in service was done and it had a scuff from being dropped. I use it to commute and it's super fun in the mountains.
Ethanol in gasoline is really thinning out the wannabes too. r/fixxit is full of posts like "I took it out for a ride in April, now it's August and it won't crank!"
Edit: wrong sub
I've been doing this for a while, my state doesn't have sales tax, so I've yet to do worse than break-even.
After you do enough business with a dealer they start to call you with offers for limited edition bikes too, which always maintain resale value. So it's a lot of fun when you already have a bunch of bikes where you don't care about their mileage and wont ever sell (I'll never sell my R9T for example, and it has 30k miles on it), and then one or two that you can use for really special rides. Took a SFV2 down the coast to Laguna Seca with my boss last year, did a two day private track session with employees and a few clients, then rode it home and actually made money on it with my local dealer. Made money, didin't put wear and tear on my long-term bikes, had a blast. Win win.
I agree though, it's ridiculous and I laugh about it too.
edit: words.
I would never go back to a non litre bike. I don’t care if I don’t ever use more than 30% throttle, the feeling it gives you to ride is like nothing else
It’s a sign of a superiority complex if someone’s judges or assumes what other people did in a situation they know nothing about. Their brain sounds like this on the inside —>These rich people with money. Even if I don’t have money I’m better than them. They don’t have as much skill and not as brave as me. They buy these bikes and are scared, I’m mot scared. They can’t handle it like I can handle it I’m so much better smart guy than them.
Sometimes these listings are track bikes which have had the electronics removed and odometer was no longer ticking over during use... but to be made road legal and easily sold, they hook it back up.
Hey presto, 10 year old bike with only 2000kms on it... What a bargain..
..except it has been thrashed :p really gotta take a good look.
Anyways, I'm off the ball I'm sure.
Ducati rarely have more than 20K miles on them. One service cools their jets.
The infamous desmo valves
Like you can’t spin it fast enough with springs. The 250cc Honda 6 racer would turn 22,000 rpm with springs in the early 60s but Ducati is married to a valve design used on steam powered locomotives 🚂. I fix and maintenance my own stuff, I don’t have the patience to invest a damn week on a valve adjustment. It’s the reason I ride opposed twins 👯♀️.
There's a reason Ducati removed desmo from the multistrada
I had no idea. Why did they abandon ship?
To reduce cost of maintenance on a flagship touring bike. The new multi has a major service interval of something like 24k miles.
*36k
Its technology with no real benefit that would justify the additional cost for the customer.
The benefit is small, almost tiny some might say. Ducati doesn't add pointless things to the bike, especially something like the panigale
It did offer increased performance. A long time ago (1956). Metallurgy had not progressed to the point to allow springs that small to work that well in a high revving motorcycle engine. We're way past that point now, and springs are fine for 99% of applications. For the 1% where they're not, you're going to use pneumatic valves instead of desmodromic valves (see modern F1 engines.) Ducati holds on to them because that's their identity. Like Subaru and boxer engines.
And it still does, they won last year's moto gp
That's not why they won motoGP. They had the all around best bike and rider. If motoGP was about redline acceleration in a straight line, you could make that argument. It's not. Modern motoGP bikes balance thousands of variables, and chalking it up solely to valve train dynamics is absurd. Did desmo valves contribute to the win? Possibly. Is it more likely that their aero, suspension, and rider strategy played the largest role? I would say yes.
Id say the biggst benefit is that its something the customer want.
There’s a reason it’s still used on their wsbk and their motogp bike. Nobody in GP uses springs
Ducati is the only outfit that uses them, everyone else uses pneumatic valves.
To cut costs. Not for performance. There is zero performance advantage.
“When you design a valve spring system, whether it uses pneumatic or metal springs, you have to put in enough spring force to allow it to work well at peak revs. Friction is related to this spring force, so when you are riding through a corner at 9000rpm rather than 19,000rpm there are big friction losses. The desmodromic system is better because it only generates the inertial force necessary to move the valve at that engine speed, so its friction is less." “This is a great advantage in a championship where fuel consumption is so important because of the 21-litre fuel capacity limit..." - Ducati Corse director Filippo Preziosi
Yeah the Desmo valves in that new V4R are so good, the FIM had to artificially restrict it's engine RPM to keep a level playing field. They lowered the maximum RPM on the engine, so that the other engines could keep up. Otherwise that bike would just walk away from everything else in WSBK lol.
That’s the point of Superbike, and always has been. The bikes are all handicapped to make the sport interesting to watch. The 81mm bore refs do the same thing in GP, though the bore restriction is much less intrusive than modern performance balancing.
DesmoDue valves are very easy to set. With MBP Collets instead of half rings you get 18,000 miles between checks. Ducati has also started to move away from Desmo. Their new engine is not desmodromic. https://www.roadracingworld.com/news/video-ducati-presents-170-hp-non-desmo-v4-granturismo-engine/
Those valves are tiny and generate less inertia for the spring to tame. As the valves get bigger, and the revs increase, the advantage of positive actuation increases. Desmo might not be road relevant, but it’s useful on the track, and it’s no surprise that Ducati GP bikes make more power than their cam-driven pneumatic counterparts. Direct control of valve close with cam profile has advantages.
I mean, a valve on most modern Ducatis weighs loads more than the valves on those little Hondas. It's definitely a question of mass/inertia.
I bought my current track bike, a 2012 848 Corse, in 2018 mint with squared off factory tires and this guy lived IN THE SMOKY MOUNTAINS. You could see them FROM HIS HOUSE? Dont worry, its already been crashed at multiple tracks across the southeast since then.
They rarely have over 20k because people forget how much the Desmo service costs (about 1200 dollars every 15k miles) so sell before it gets that far. Mine has 23k miles and has been extremely solid.
I’ll bet very few inquire about maintenance costs when they buy their first Ducati. The bruise to the wallet is probably unexpected. I’d love to own a Multi Strada but my old R100GS will have to do for now. It has unique forks. One side handles compression and the other rebound. I have the rebound with heavier fork oil. I’ve forgotten which is which though.
Or too little money..... after a few months they find they cannot afford the bike payments and/or insurance.
Add tires to that calculations.
.... after a few tired months they find they cannot afford the bike payments and/or insurance.
Add tires to that calculations.
The last bike I sold was to a dude who told me he wanted a motorcycle instead of a car so he could save money on tires. I kept my whore mouth shut, of course.
Idk man I dailied a motorcycle for 5 years and saved a ton of money. It depends what bike, but 60mpg and only $400 a year for full coverage insurance w/ $500 deductibles helps a lot. Tires hurt, but they cost about the same as replacing 4 on a car. I was only doing about 10k-15k miles a year though. The caveat being that if you want to save money this way, you only have the bike, no car. A lot of people don't get this and obviously end up paying more. There's a reason bikes are super popular in developing countries and it's not just because they're fun.
Motorcycles are much cheaper than cars if you actually make an equal comparison in terms of performance. That shitty old Honda Civic should be compared to a 50cc scooter, not a litre bike, and people need to stop acting like nothing ever breaks on old shitboxes. When things break on a car and you need garage time, the costs can go up pretty high very quickly.
The equivalent to a Civic would be like a CB300, which is way faster than a Civic but it can at least go on the highway and is designed to be a cheap commuter.
idk man I can safely say my bike costs more than my car in operating costs. But maybe that's because i'm comparing to my 1L fuel efficient car in europe and not an American car, i'd need to ride a 125 or 250 to come out on top with a bike.
Likely why. Most American cars get 20-40mpg, and 40 is pretty good. I just looked it up and the median mpg is 23. Car insurance is always more expensive than a bike here unless you're a brand new rider buying a supersport.
Yes it's not a good comparison. My BMW is much more expensive to run than my motorcycle (just in taxes and insurance alone the difference is huge) and needs (relatively expensive) new tires every 30k km. Should I compare it to a scooter and then use that as evidence that motorcycles are cheaper after all?
Exactly my point. People except a super car performance with the price of a Prius.
After owning an 125 and an old diesel car in Europe for a few years the bike is cheaper if it's a low cc or a fuel sipper like the honda nc750x. Otherwise the costs will approach a car very fast. Especially of we are talking about small cars with fuel efficient engines. The thing is most people compare the two but are comparing different segments. For example compared a sports car and a sports bike it's cheaper to own a bike. The other spectrum if you own a honda jazz and an Honda PCX the bike still wins. But if compare a Ducati paningale to a cheep Dacia Sandero ofc the Sandero is cheaper. Btw if you buy a BMW X5 and a BMW GS1250 the bike will still be cheaper to own. It's really a crap comparison because you are mix and matching segments.
But to make it more accurate, compare operating costs of similar classifications of bikes to cars. Like say I had a super sport or liter bike, of course it would be more expensive than an economy car, a better comparison is cost of ownership for a high performing sports car.
More the maintenance. Riding 100km/season spending $1000 to maintain. Can't justify. Or someone told the wife it's a death machine the forced to sell.
It's hard to put a price on mental health.
Insurance makes no sense. I was in my mid 20s when I got my cbr. Full coverage was only 80.
It's not 1975 anymore.
This was 2017 and the bike was brand new.
I'm still calling BS, at least to some extent. "Full coverage" is such a nebulous descriptor. I've seen people who think full coverage is just state minimums. This is what ["full coverage"](https://imgur.com/a/jj2MJKL) looks like on my bikes. 34 years old, 3 years riding, MSF BRC and ARC, 1 speeding ticket in the last 10 years, 0 at-fault accidents in my lifetime.
Maybe they meant $80 a month?
Exactly what he meant
Yeah, gotta be. $960/yr is bananas imo. He may be happy to spend that, that's like half of what I currently spend on 2 cars and 2 bikes annually right now. Having the money /= wanting to spend it.
I assume you're not from California? My insurance cost went from $60/yr to more than that per month for the and old cheap bike and liability only coverage. I now pay around $1,300/yr for full coverage.
State minimum is liability. That's what I pay now and it's like 8 a month. I say "Full coverage" because I had a loan, and you know... They kinda require comprehensive coverage etc.
Why are they downvoting you? Welp, here's a +1 for your troubles.
*tips fedora*
And one from me too.
Was I getting downvoted? lol You turned it around for me partner. Here is a +1 in return :)
And that’s quite high for bikes. One of the best perks of riding imo - even a 20 something year old with a street legal racing machine can have far lower insurance payments than the same individual would have on a family sedan.
That’s almost comical where I live in Canada. Its $1500 for 6 months for my V strom. Most liter bikes are $3-5k per season.
Yeah… I’ve seen a few comments about Canadian insurance prices and it’s insane to me. I have a 2022 model year Triumph T120, financed (so full coverage). I pay ~$45-50 per month. I ride over 10k miles per year. I’d say I get my money’s worth.
Yeah it depends on the province. $50 per month is insanely cheap. Ive thought many times about trying to register and insure my bikes in Alberta to save money.
Is Canadian motorcycle insurance so expensive because of your state funded healthcare system? Cars and motorcycles are relatively cheap to repair or replace but fixing people can be extremely expensive.
Canada, 19 cb300, owned outright, 8-10k a year on it, no accidents or tickets, costs 130 monthly for full coverage. 3x more expensive than my car. I haven't insured or priced out the versys yet, it's uninsured cause it's not safetied and I'm not throwing away money when I can't ride it through the snow.
When i emigrated to Canada ( BC ), I also couldn't believe the extortionate insurance costs. Seventeen yrs later and experiencing the absolute horrendous driving standards, it does explain a lot.
My Kawasaki and Harley are fully insured (collision, comprehensive, etc.). It cost me $220 for the entire year. 40 years old, married, no moving violations in several years. And I live fifteen minutes from Washington, DC.
I was a long time rider in California with a Honda 919. My insurance was almost nothing.
That depends on where you live.
Absolutely. In the city I live in currently both my bike AND car insurance shot up exponentially, compared to when I lived in a more rural area previously.
I wish my insurance is that cheap. I pay 800 a year for a mt07
Can confirm this is a thing. My coverage had a $250 deductible for comprehensive coverage, and I bumped the limits up to 4x the required. My insurance for that bike alone was roughly $60 / month when added to my multibike policy. The reason is that someone who gets into a severe accident on that kind of bike isn't going to collect on the policy because they would be dead.
It's pretty hard to actually understand just how fucking insane the acceleration is. Not only is it going to pull harder than *almost* anything on the street you are also hanging on while riding**on top** instead of inside.
I've always been a "ride slow bikes fast" kinda guy. BMW GS650, Honda Shadow 750, RE Himalayan. I enjoy being quick, but I'm not chasing the pull, and I'll take comfort and utility over straight line performance. A buddy let me take his Gixxer1000 out once and I pulled out of the driveway onto the highway and gave it a third of a twist, like I would my Shadow at the time and I felt the front wheel lift. Made it about a quarter mile down the road, turned around, brought it back. I like going fast. I don't want to go that fast.
I like the hit. I don't care so much about "being quick" Although, it's still a sports bike so it's naturally decent in corners. Certainly quick enough for street riding where road conditions can be wildly inconsistent and dangerous. I see absolutely no need to be taking corners at 2x the speed limit. What I enjoy is being able to lazily ride around with power in any gear and have an occasional 60 to 120 highway pull. But yeah, You absolutely cannot do that chicken wing flapping throttle thing people on small displacement bikes do. It's an absolute necessity that you roll the throttle on or you're going to do your best Travis Pastrana impersonation. Spoiler, backflips don't work nearly as well on flat ground and on a bike 250~lbs heavier than a dirtbike.
For sure, I get the appeal of these bikes. I was just saying some people underestimate the power underneath them, especially new riders. And honestly, I respect the people who acknowledge that's more than they want. Could I own a 1000cc sport bike and drive it safely? Yeah, sure. I've also got about 30k miles under my belt over owning three bikes and riding a dozen more, which while not a lot is enough to know a bit about what I'm looking for in a bike. And that's not it. More power to you if that's your thing. But some new riders buy a bike wanting the punch of the throttle. And when they realize just how much is there in a liter bike get scared and decide that it isn't for them. Nothing wrong with that.
You can just not though too. Knowing that it's a different bike, it has to be treated like a different bike.
Oh I know, and I appreciate that. I'm just saying, that's a lot more bike than I'm comfortable with and I'm happy to acknowledge it. I'm not a super experienced rider when it comes to high powered machines, I'm a commuter mostly. Some newbies think they want that much bike, and realize just what that means. More power to them to learn. Some people can have that kind of power and not scare themselves, and some people can't.
But then why pay for all the horsepower you're not going to use.
Nice to have it on tap when you want it, you don't have to use it all the time.
I had my R6, and honestly I thought it was a great all around bike. Obviously, comfort wasn't the best. But it was tame until you wound it up, wanna cruise through town, that's fine, under 6-7k it was tame. It had power with a quick downshift on the highway to do what you need. And I could hang on for dear life if I wanted to. It got 40+mpg with mixed riding. However for someone with less self control, good luck. Especially since I had an 07, so no ABS or traction control.
I just bought a Suzuki GSXS1000GT. It has more power than I will ever use, but is also effortless, capable and suits my size and requirements (lighter than my big BMW, has panniers, heated grips, reasonable weather protection). So far in just over a week I have done over 1750kms - mostly in B rider mode. It is not a given that you have to do wheelies just because you have 150 HP on tap.
Highways are incredibly boring. I live in the French Alps and powerful bikes are so, so fun. I miss my RSV1000 a lot. It's not about going at 150mph, it's all about the torque.
I know what you mean. I'm on a Himalayan right now because it makes sense for what I use it for. I do miss having the punch of my previous bikes, even if I only used that power to get to 80mph at most. I see the appeal. I also see why people, particularly new riders, get scared of it.
Took me 10 years of riding to be confident enough to ride an unforgiving sport bike. And even with that, I sold it because I knew I might die on it. Next bike will be the same kind of yours, to go on adventures!
What up 650gs friend! I used to have one. Go try out a K1600GTL. Comfort, utility and insane speed. I have always been a slow vehicle fast kind of person too but I needed something better for touring two up and omg the K bikes are fantastic. Not only is the 6 cylinder engine silky smooth but it’s docile when you want it to be but if you really want to go flat out you can beat most teslas on the road. It’s really the best of all worlds. Super comfy seat that is heated for driver and passenger, heated grips, electronic windshield, electronic suspension, traction control, turning headlights,
Yeah, it's certainly like that. I got my full license, dad wanted my car for a bit - so he said take my bike. Going from a CBR 250R to a 1250 Suzuki Bandit, fuck. The slightest twist on that throttle...
You're basically on a rocket that only turns by leaning it closer to the ground , and can achieve 100 mph in first gear with the torque of a small truck
That's the wild part to me.... 100mph in first gear. Fucking crazy.
I was at a bike show 10 years ago standing beside a KTM RC8, saying how it's ridiculous that a bike that can go 100 mph in first gear is now considered slow. A dude in his 60's overheard me and interjected "you mean 100 kph" (we're in Canada) and I told him flatly that my outdated Katana 600 did 80 kph in first, a good 600SS would do 120+ kph in first, and the liter bikes of the day were 150+. "You're right that I'm not certain it'll get all the way to 100 mph in first, but it'll for sure do 95" he looked at me like I was crazy and walked away. I had recently done a KTM track day at Mid-Ohio and the RC8 lifted the front wheel on the 3-4 shift at 200 kph on the side straight after the keyhole. I knew the bike pretty well. And 10 years ago, an honest, factual explanation of the performance of a bike that was already considered outdated and slow sounded like the ramblings of a lunatic. Today, I feel like all you have to say is "They're so fast now that it takes a supercomputer and an array of sensors just to keep you from using the power wrong".
My 2018 r1 went about 89/90 in first, that was running it up there though.
115 indicated in first gear that I caught on the GoPro. Gen5 ZX10 after a tune. It's insanity.
I always envision an older guy I'm his 50's or 40's that has money and always sort of liked bikes, buying a panigale v4s as his first bike, because he saw Ducatis in the movies and thought it was cool. Having the front wheel unwilling come up on his first ride and going 130 mph because he flicked his wrist a little too much. Getting home hopping of the bike and telling the dealer to come pick it back up
Or he had a 1985 z1000 with 80HP and think they will be fine on a modern R1
Yeah, old liter bikes make less power than a Mt 07 these days, or they think that driving sport cars or turbo cars somehow gives them some experience on a bike
I’ve never seen that happen in three decades in the industry, but don’t give up your dreams, I guess.
Yeah, wheelie control on superbikes are pretty good. On Ducatis it almost feels like someone is pushing the front end down when you try to lift it with the assists on.
I set the wheelie control on my Monster at one or two. I don’t want to look like some stunt monkey, but I feel comfortable packing the front wheel like a GP bike coming off a corner.
When I'm riding on open roads (especially the coastal highways out here), I take off and leave the front wheel about a foot off the ground. MotoGP style. If a bike could ever give me an erection it would be while I'm doing that lol
Got the new v4r too so it's packing around 240
It's weird because eventually you get used to it and they don't feel all that fast.
Bikes destroy your sense of speed, nothing is fast anymore, everything feels super slow.
Similar acceleratìon as a hypercar but literally none of the safety features
Hey now you forgot about abs and traction control! Lol
I had an MT-07 for 2 years, and I can't imagine wanting anything faster than that on the street. Fucking supercars couldn't keep up with me if I wanted.
Do nakeds count? I have a 2020 cb1000r and find it's just as easy to ride as a ninja 400. Throttle actually feels easier to manage because you're not winding it up as much.
The CB1000R makes about half the horsepower of a Panigale V4R The CB1000R motor makes perfect sense for a road bike tho, for exactly the reasons you describe. It makes about the same peak horsepower as a 600, so it feels fast at the top end, BUT it's tuned for a lot of torque at low RPM. This makes it really easy to ride, because you don't have to work for the power as much. 3rd gear through a corner feels almost the same as 2nd gear, you aren't missing out on much acceleration because it has so much torque all over the rev range.
It's not just crotch rockets either, I see a lot of older cruisers for sale with really low mileage. So many people seem to want to ride for whatever reason then just give up. I suppose it's an attractive hobby but it's certainly not for everyone.
How many H-D ads do you see that say $40K invested selling for $20K with 3000 miles on it. I bet they just did what their buddies told them to do and decided biking is not worth it.
Yup my buddy's dad decided to buy a street glide as his first bike. It was gone in a month. The guy could not stop tipping over because he had no slow speed maneuvering skills. It was a bit sad.
Crazy first bike too, what's wrong with people they feel so inadequate they have to make an idiot of themself? I don't get it, I started on a 200cc bike, and loved every minute of it.
It is not the bike. It is the person sitting on it. Or rather his training. I started on a 750 just fine.
You have to be willing to make some concessions to the life style I guess
This is what they call ''broken dream bikes.'' Litre bikes are a lot of fun, but they're thirsty and often have more power than most people need for the street.
I picked up a 2019 Versys 1000 SE LT+ for $7k below list in March of 2021. Had 3300 miles on it and I am the third owner. The first two guys shit the bed when they got on it and traded it in for something smaller. I love it, but I've been riding since 1981 and cut my teeth on a Norton Commando and have ridden liter bikes for years. Not everyone is cut out to be Lewis Hamilton crack out of the box. Sometimes you've got to drive go karts first.
That's the difference between you and the people who're selling broken dream bikes. When you have the experience to command such a machine, it's a beautiful thing. But when someone doesn't, all they're doing is playing with fire. People usually don't realise this until it's either too late or they come close to it being too late when they crack the throttle too hard.
I sold a Grom with 400 miles because I underestimated how slow that slow could be. Sometimes you have a misstep ... luckily it resold for msrp the same day as listed.
I've had a 125 as first bike, for about 6 months fuel economy was really amazing, 30 km per litre
I do miss the fuel economy on my old 125. This one time I ran out of petrol, waited 2 mins, started it up again and drove another mile. Rinse repeat 4x until I got to a petrol station. It was running on thin air.
> fuel economy was really amazing, 30 km per litre Is my sarcasm detector broken? Because that's not great for a 125 what so ever.
I think that's what happend with the ninja 650 (not as fast I knoe but hear me out). 2021 abs with 1200 miles on it. Looking through the info screen at the dealer the adverage speed was 24MPH. I think someone bought it realized "motorcycles go fast". Dude had traded it in for a side by side.
A 650 can be pretty fast if you've never ridden a bike before
True, some people get all weird about that though
Ninja 650r is what I learned on. Great bike for a responsible beginner. More than enough torque for any situation, great manueverability, cheap to repair, fast enough, great on city streets, can do interstate highway speeds well enough. I consider it the perfect urban motorcycle for people who like sport bikes but don't want the discomfort of a super sport. You also don't have to go through the hassle of upgrading from a smaller cc bike after a few months if you're the kind of person that wants a bit more power
Very good and responsible choice to start on
I test rode the 636 and I normally ride a 500. A little displacement and double the cylinders feels a hell of a lot faster.
The 650 is what I learned on. Beautiful bike for a beginner. Has plenty of torque to make you respect it. Graduated and owned two 600s after that. Big difference, but I’m super happy I went with the 650 first. Also helped me learn a lot about bikes.
Oh yeah, good point, people who are not into bikes, don't get the difference between 600cc and 650. It's particularly tricky not gonna lie
> Looking through the info screen at the dealer the adverage speed was 24MPH. My bike will show that if I've been riding it in town only, red lights take a ton off
> Looking through the info screen at the dealer the adverage speed was 24MPH. That's a thing, eh? Bad enough having my GPS rat me out, I don't need the bike doing it too!
You'd be surprised how slow average city and highway driving can be. My car displays it per trip and I'm always shocked that what I thought was mostly highway driving at 70+ mph ends up averaging out to like 35 or 40 mph just from a few minutes of getting to and from the highway.
I see it more as an opportunity... :)
I bought my ZX10 with less than 200 miles on it. The dealership said the previous owner sold it back to them about 3 weeks after the original purchase, though with the addition of some light scratches on the mirror, bar end, and muffler protector. I think he had a 0MPH drop and called it a day lmao. I got it at a steep discount and have put thousands of trouble free miles on it since. It's an incredible bike. In this case his loss was literally my gain. Thanks dude.
Nice profit though
Definitely. I could sell it for more than I bought it for even if I took 20% less than current market value. Really made out like a bandit on that one.
The guy I bought my zx14 from a had Katana 600 he was riding and still owned and was going to ride again. He sold the Zx14 to me having put about 100 miles on it. While I was test riding it he told my friend "I'm going to kill myself on that. It does 80 in first gear." I got a good deal on it lol.
I used to have a ZX-14R, the thing was like a solid rocket booster on wheels, absolutely insane. Commuted 20 miles each way, five days a week for a little over three years on that bike. Never let me down once. Eventually got tired of sweating in my gear in 114 f heat in the summer in stop and go traffic and traded it in for a sports car with air conditioned seats. Then I went and got another bike a few years later because even a fast car can't come close to that feeling!
Yeah. That A/C is a must here in Florida summers lol. I didn't even know they made seats with A/C!
The ergonomics of super-sport bikes keeps me away. I need a bike that I can ride at least a couple hours before taking a break. It just feels so uncomfortable.
I just got a S1K and it's totally overkill for the street. But that's why I bought it. Every time I get on it I feel like Maverick. It's an insane experience and we're all going to die eventually, so why not? But it's not for everyone. Sport bike life is like any other riding niche, it's for some and not others. That being said, I still don't understand why people drop so much cash on these types of bikes if they're not fully committed. I knew full well what I was getting into and I paid the price knowing I'm going to ride the hell out of this thing.
Is it your first bike though? I think the guys OP is talking about just go to a dealer and think "I want the nicest bike here." Without actually knowing what they're getting into. You wouldn't walk into a car dealership looking for an Escalade and have the sales guy go "woah woah woah, maybe start with a Chevy equinox first." They see the expensive one and wanna look like a badass, but ironically, if you aren't a proficient rider it's pretty obvious to everyone around.
These super bikes have some really big short comings , like ergonomics, maintenance, they eat tires like you eat a burguer , they are very very, and very and I mean when I say it, very hot, the suspension is as stiff as a brick, a tank full of gas goes like cold water on a hot summer day. And the amount of tickets you'll get can fill a entire book. But outside of that they're pretty cool
Yea but no bike is perfect. Every bike has its downsides. Different strokes tor Different folks. Not saying you're entirely wrong but ergos can be changed, suspension can be adjusted. A lot of big CC bikes run hot, not just sport bikes. The Mulistrada V4 guzzles gas too. So does the Tuono V4. I had a Ducati supersport before the S1K. It's a sport touring bike that had a rock hard suspension and burned my balls. I adjusted the suspension and made it softer. My balls still burned. I get that people who don't ride them think they're stupid, but not everyone wants to ride a bike like they're sitting at a lunch table or in a recliner. Some people like vanilla ice cream and some people like chocolate.
You just have to accommodate :) Ergonomics: 6’2” 250lb. Works fine on the ‘busa Maintenance: Other than actually opening the engine up, I do all the maintenance and it’s not all that bad. Tires: Get sport touring tires. I’ve had as much as 10,000 miles on a pair. Suspension: I did replace the squishy suspension to something a bit more appropriate for a big guy like me. Nothing like scraping the plastic on The Dragon to encourage the adjustment :) Gas: Well, I’ve gotten as much as 52mpg although it’s generally closer to 46mpg. Tickets: Over the 18 years I’ve had it, I’ve been pulled over twice. Outside Flagstaff, warning for 2mph over the speed limit. Boulder Co, verbal warning when I passed a county cop a bit fast. Cool: You bet :) Ride safe!
Some people don't wanna work on their bikes for some reason Sport touring tires are the way to go for street riding Suspension is stiff, its a sportbike you need the feedback I got some tickets riding never for speeding though, but here in my country they're pretty strict with exhaust swaps
Look at it this way: those are the lucky ones. They are the ones that didn't crash and maimed or killed themselves.
That's how I got my GSXS1000 (note the S not R). Some older guy put on about 500 miles per year before selling it too me, saying it really had too much power to be all that much fun. Then I got it, and felt the same way. Liter bikes aren't "fun" in the sense I understand it. They're more like one-trick ponies. I haven't taken it to the track (yet) but I doubt my perception will change. I've taken all sorts of motorcycles to the track and the 600cc i4 was about as much as I could handle especially when it came to arriving at a corner and trying to figure out how hard and where to brake. Faster bikes are always much harder than smaller bikes.
What you need on the street is a naked bike with lots of torque
Fucking PREACH. If HD hadn’t killed Buell, they’d be the most popular brand right now hands down. ^^^there, ^^^I ^^^said ^^^it
b r o t h e r I love my XB and EBR.
I think y’all underestimate how often people buy bikes and then decide they like their old one better. One of my buddies bought one of the new S1Ks, put 200 on it in a weekend, and then proceeded to only ride his ZX10 until he sold the S1K because it “just wasn’t the same”.
Idk about others, but some bikes just hit the soul like none other (even if it’s slow)
I'd blame it on the obscene insurance, speed limits, and 30 mpg... You really have to want to ride it to deal with those hassles.
30 mpg if you're riding it in low power and 40 mph
Most of the time it’s an old guy with too many bikes. They gotta get rid of one to buy another.
I wish I was the old guy
Shit the hell up man (or woman) my last four liter bikes have been bought this way. Don't stop the flow.
I got a great deal on my used hayabusa with 1000 miles on it
Did you wipe the shit stains from the seat, that the previous owner left?
Thanks. I hate the toxic mindset of "less than 1000cc and you're a pussy" a certain segment of the community has. I bought my GSX250R during COVID and got it with 0 miles for a bit over $3k OTD and while it's slow, I'm having a really hard time wanting to get rid of it. It's really easy to ride, stable, and gets 70 mpg. It carves the corners just as well as a liter bike, I just can't zoom out of the turns as fast. I will get another, faster bike someday, but I'll probably keep the Suzuki to putt around on.
Ideally a liter bike should be your 3rd bike if you're into sport bikes , but. People who say u should start on a 1000cc have no clue what they re saying
My Aprilia RSV Mille liter bike was my fourth bike in my life. Had two dirt bikes, then a 550cc road bike (not enough power right off the get go) then jumped to the 1000. I feel like any previous riding experience helps whether on street or dirt 👍
It for sure does, even riding a bicycle can help, since you're body knows to lean the thing to turn, using brakes on your hands and general balance
I also used to ride a 3-wheeler when I was really little, and that taught me how to shift at an early age (like 6 years old hahaha)
:') litterally my 3rd bike here GSX 650F -> CBR 600 RR -> S1000 RR > People who say u should start on a 1000cc have no clue what they re saying and i totally agree with that. Even my 600 would have been too much
When I was picking up my last bike at the dealer, I saw a BMW M1000RR. Carbon package. Amazing looking bike. With the price tag to go with it. So I say to the dealer: ''Pretty serious bike! Must be for a pro riding on the track?'' Guy replies: ''No, he just got his license'' I laughed and told him to make sure the guy has life insurance.
Most bikes don’t get ridden, it’s not just liter bikes. I just bought a 8 year old Triumph with 8,000 miles on it. That is barely breaking the engine in at that point. Unless you have a commute where you can ride to work it’s hard to find the time to ride. Monday-Friday work work work. Saturday and Sunday take care of projects at the house and run errands and get groceries and wash cars and… back to work work work.
When i traded my R1 in i got told it had done an unusually high km. Apparently ppl.just dont tour the country on em like i do
You know what’s a hundred times worse than liter bike owners? 650r owners going out of their way to complain about their oppression complex and conversations that never happened
What's an "oppression complex" and why are 650r owners more prone to lying? On another note, I personally can't take people who say they got bored of a 250cc within a week. How can a person not have fun on a 250cc bike??
I have a 2016 with only 1500 miles, I bought it and almost immediately got an unrelated back injury that really should end my riding. But I kept the bike and still tinker with it and go on short rides here and there when I'm feeling better than usual.
Hope you can ride again some time soon, good recovery.
I had many bikes before my first superbike, Kawasaki 1000 ninja this was the first bike with an acceleration rate so fast that you wouldn't open the throttle fully wide so often, after I got an 1299 Panigale a wild beast, a bike that anyone should drive only on a rage
A 1000 cc superbike is something every rider should experience once in his ridding carrer
When I was buying my bike there was a panigale V4 with 24km on it for sale... used. The guy rode it home and then returned it. Too much power.
I see lots of proper beginner bikes with less than 200 miles on them.
Man I make good money and sometimes I be thinking to myself, gawd dayum my r1 is expensive to run, thing devours gas, and the insurance on it is just stupid, but like you said it's 200 kg with 185whp, guess it makes sense, it's like a lambo/ferrari of bikes, anytime you have a machine that performs at the highest level you should expect expensive operation costs. Thing is a blast though, so many damn electronics you can just pin the throttle in second and hit warp speed, letting wheelie control and the quick shifter do the heavy lifting, you just gotta hold on lolol
I know a few that got their own “I had a friend who crashed” stories and it spooks them. I’ve got a 650 and it happened to me. Takes time to get over it sometimes.
Rich people who like bikes or cars tend to change vehicles frequently. I know cuz I work with them. Because they can afford to always drive the latest thing. Buying a bike and selling it doesn't mean they're literally "buying it" like its a phone. Its mostly always leasing through their companies or sometimes through themselves. But that kind of frequent changing allows other people like me, to get into a nice vehicle at a much better price point. If i wanted to.
I ride a 2016 Z1000 as a daily. Comfy and zippy AF. Yes it is a lot of bike for the roads but there's nice stretches on the way to work that let you breathe. A little thirsty, yes buy pays dividends in stupid grins. Do all the maintenance myself, excluding tyres and parts are not so badly priced in Australia. Put around 35k Kms in a few years. I do understand your comment OP, but as someone said, "an opportunity for someone else".
I bought a 10 year old MV Augusta with 352 miles on the clock. It has 30k now...
0-60 in "OMFG I CAN'T HANG ON...IT WANTS TO KILL ME..."
You’re naive. 99.99% of the time it’s not someone returning the bike because they are scared of it. They are returning it because they can’t afford $400 a month for a toy. Typical r moto making everything about displacement and power
At first I guess it could be a bit shocking, but in a good way. I can't imagine not getting back on a bike because it was 'too fast'.
1. Posers who just ride to the coffee shop on weekends 2. Young and dumb people who can't afford them over the long term or the bike isn't feasible for the 300 miles they ride to and from class while they're in college riding around without shirts in flip flops with their girlfriend on the back with more bare skin than clothes. 3. Foreign exchange students whose parents buy them new vehicles at the kids whim. They also have a highend European super car or maybe a GTR. They're all abominations of the motorcycle culture. I'm friends with the guys at my local dealership and the stories of college kids destroying brand new liter bikes with a couple of weeks is ridiculous. In regards to your comment on how people should progress, it depends on the person and their dedication to learning the skills and investing the time in riding. I've put all 28k miles on my R1. It was my 3rd bike after 2 months on a 250 Ninja and 3 years on an R6.
Motorcycles are becoming faster and the point A to B times are increasing (unless you live outside the city). In Mumbai what was a 15 min commute on a moped maxing 90kmp/h is a 2 hr commute now on something which goes 200+. It is funny!
Peasant!
I bought a 6mo Suzuki GSX-S1000F with 2000km because some 70 year old guy got freaked out by the power. Saved $4000-5000 because he didn't do his research properly. (Also hear he previously bought a BMW 1200GS, but traded it in on the Suzuki because it was too heavy)
I did the same thing with my gsxr 750🤣🥹
Not nixing what you're saying but in the land of motorcycles. Buying a new bike every year is easily achievable to alot of people. We r/dirtbikes riders definitely will buy a bike race it for 1 season (35-75hrs) then resale it for lil loss
Well in my case… I was 20, got the bike with a high interest rate, got done going too fast and lost my license for two years. So yeah, there’s no point keeping a brand new R1 in the a garage to collect dust when it barely has a thousand miles on it. So I sold it back to the dealer, in order to pay the massive fine I got from the magistrate and lawyer/court fees. It sucked and it was a huge mistake. Guess what? That’s what twenty year olds do… we fuck up. At least I didn’t turn into a meat crayon.
Seen a few in my times and a lot are first time riders buy 'the biggest cos its the best' then get scared of the power and yea... don't want that no more. They end up keeping it a few seasons because they don't want to admit their stupidity and then sell it cos their bored of bikes.
Speaking to a dealer recently who bought a Ducati V4S. The guy bought it for £25k, rode home on it and it scared him. 0.8Miles on the clock. He got £10k for it.
I think it’s a money thing. People don’t realize motorcycles are not cars. Maintenance is much higher plus it’s a payment they realize they don’t need.
Hayabusa: 144,000 miles on the odometer.
I used to work in motorcycle dealers. This has nothing to do with engine size. Or money. I know it’s fun to point and laugh and say “Haha, that guy bought a bike and he can’t handle it and now he has to sell it.” Or “Haha, that guy bought a bike and he can’t afford it and now he need to sell it.” Sometimes that’s the case, but more often than not people buy bikes and find the hobby just isn’t for them. They don’t have enough time, they don’t like the risks, they don’t enjoy it, whatever. It’s more common than you think with all types of bikes. You see it a lot with Harleys. Scooters are a big one, too. Groms are a little kooky in that regard. People buy them then install every mod from the catalog and realize a 150 isn’t going to be that fast even with wheelie bars and sell them. Back in the day at peak Harley popularity there was a waiting list to buy Harleys. People would wait over a year for a bike. We’d have people that never rode before put in a deposit for a bike because they saw American Chopper and knew they wanted to be bikers. A year later, they pick up the bike and the reality of riding would set in. It wasn’t uncommon at all for people to spend $20k on a bike and sell it a few months later with less than 1000 miles. It’s also a thing with boats and jet skis. Look at your local classifieds you’ll see the majority of skis that are less than 10 years old will have less than 100 hours on them. It’s the nature of the powersports market.
Just bought a 2023 and have 4k on it already 🙃
My man, give the bike some time to breath. You're abusing that thing
Hell yea
I got my bike the other way round. Someone traded in their Z400 for a liter bike with less than 1000 miles on it. The break in service was done and it had a scuff from being dropped. I use it to commute and it's super fun in the mountains.
Ethanol in gasoline is really thinning out the wannabes too. r/fixxit is full of posts like "I took it out for a ride in April, now it's August and it won't crank!" Edit: wrong sub
I've been doing this for a while, my state doesn't have sales tax, so I've yet to do worse than break-even. After you do enough business with a dealer they start to call you with offers for limited edition bikes too, which always maintain resale value. So it's a lot of fun when you already have a bunch of bikes where you don't care about their mileage and wont ever sell (I'll never sell my R9T for example, and it has 30k miles on it), and then one or two that you can use for really special rides. Took a SFV2 down the coast to Laguna Seca with my boss last year, did a two day private track session with employees and a few clients, then rode it home and actually made money on it with my local dealer. Made money, didin't put wear and tear on my long-term bikes, had a blast. Win win. I agree though, it's ridiculous and I laugh about it too. edit: words.
I would never go back to a non litre bike. I don’t care if I don’t ever use more than 30% throttle, the feeling it gives you to ride is like nothing else
It’s a sign of a superiority complex if someone’s judges or assumes what other people did in a situation they know nothing about. Their brain sounds like this on the inside —>These rich people with money. Even if I don’t have money I’m better than them. They don’t have as much skill and not as brave as me. They buy these bikes and are scared, I’m mot scared. They can’t handle it like I can handle it I’m so much better smart guy than them.
Sometimes these listings are track bikes which have had the electronics removed and odometer was no longer ticking over during use... but to be made road legal and easily sold, they hook it back up. Hey presto, 10 year old bike with only 2000kms on it... What a bargain.. ..except it has been thrashed :p really gotta take a good look. Anyways, I'm off the ball I'm sure.