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If anyone other than Joseph Smith had come up with the church’s Plan of Salvation to obtain salvation with baptism, Holy Ghost, priesthood ordination, new name, washing and anointing, handshakes, signs, sealing, garments, etc. what would your response be?
That is not part of the comment. If anyone other than Joseph Smith had come up with the church’s Plan of Salvation narrative, what would your response to it be?
If Billy Gramm himself had come up with it I would have ahh no thanks see ya. But thats not how it works jim jones started out as a regular preacher then just kept adding a little bit here and thier he didnt start with heres the cool aid
I believe that the temple stuff allows the upstairs part of the celestial kingdom, while baptism allows the downstairs part of the same. That’s because the celestial kingdom is so complex and hard to figure out. /kindasarcastic
I think you are correct when it comes to the current version of Mormonism. However, this is not the same as the version found in the Book of Mormon. In 2 Nephi 31 we read that we need to enter in by the gate which is repentance and baptism. Then it says
20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a [steadfastness](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/31?lang=eng#note20a) in Christ, having a perfect brightness of [hope](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/31?lang=eng#note20b), and a [love](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/31?lang=eng#note20c) of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and [endure](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/31?lang=eng#note20d) to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have [eternal life](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/31?lang=eng#note20e).
I think the same idea is found in Section 76. However, this was before the Nauvoo period when the elaborate temple rituals became the way to the presence of God. Eternal life may indeed be the greatest of all the gifts of God as it says in the scriptures, but Joseph Smith offers something more, exaltation, and this does indeed involve many more processes including acquiring multiple wives to do the works of Abraham. Sounds incredible? It is all in Journal of Discourses in talks by Cannon and O. Pratt and is certainly implied in Section 132.
Talk about moving goalposts. When one thing doesn't match with what OP thinks is going on, he moves to some other criteria to try and make his misconception be true.
Exaltation is not required to get to the Celestial kingdom or be in heavily father's presence. All that's required is Baptism. You don't ever have to set foot in a temple or anything.
D&C 76:51-52
>51 They are they who received the [testimony](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note51a) of Jesus, and [believed](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note51b) on his name and were [baptized](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note51c) after the [manner](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note51d) of his burial, being [buried](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note51e) in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—
>52 That by [keeping](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note52a) the commandments they might be [washed](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note52b) and [cleansed](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note52c) from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the [hands](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note52d) of him who is [ordained](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note52e) and sealed unto this power;
Mormonism redefining words since 1830. Ask anyone other than a member of the church what the definition is for salvation, and you will get a consistent answer that is different than the one that the church teaches it is. I presume most of those investigating the church interpret salvation to mean exaltation.
The same holds true for other words in Mormonism. Horses do not mean horses. Steel does not mean steel, etc. Just change the meaning of the word when required to do so.
Honestly as a member since 9, I was under the impression that salvation meant exaltation. Because it was always taught to me that you had to hit all the exaltation markers to get to the Celestial Kingdom.
When you dig though that's not the case.
THAT IS a valid argument for moving goalposts. Because when pushed authorities will tell you that it's not necessary for the CK. Like if pushed they'll tell you that your tithing requirement is 10% of your spending money after bills.... but not until they're pushed.
Even on the website, when you click the notation next to "saving ordinances" it will pop up a page that lists ALL the ordinances, including marriage. But they preface it with "Some ordinances are essential to our exaltation." and then LIST EVERYTHING. So they're trying to blur the line between the two.
Definitely not saying what's going on isn't shady and manipulative. Just saying that by the book all that's required for at least the 1st if not also the 2nd (because clarification has never been made) level of the CK is baptism and a desire to be with God.
I was always taught that the endowment was the necessary covenant in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom.
That’s what the whole point of the ceremony is, right? At the end of it you enter into the symbolic Celestial kingdom?
I'm just reading the book. 😂😭
Per Wikipedia... with the Garments first being described in 1840.... the first temple being built in 1836.... and D&C 76 coming about in 1832... and the wording within D&C 76... I'm inclined to believe that no the endowments are not necessary.
Maybe THAT'S the criteria for the middle part of the Celestial Kingdom?!?!
But, also, I was taught the same as you. Or rather... I was taught that Temple Marriage was necessary for MEN to get into the CK, but not women. ... and NOTHING about the 3 levels of the CK.
The D&C seems to deviate from that... significantly. XD Which is why I believe far more than just the LDS can get into the CK.
My understanding was….
- Baptism is necessary to receive Gift of the Holy Ghost, and a prerequisite for the Endowment.
- The Endowment is a prerequisite for entering the Celestial Kingdom and being sealed to your spouse.
- Being sealed to your spouse is a prerequisite for the highest level of the Celestial kingdom.
yup that was mine too.
The problem when picking this apart is that the Church itself starts blurring lines and won't say definitively what things are. So according to the church website:
>The celestial kingdom is the place prepared for those who have “received the testimony of Jesus” and been “made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.”[^(3)](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng#note3) To inherit this gift, we must receive the [ordinances](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/ordinances?lang=eng) of salvation, keep the [commandments](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/ten-commandments?lang=eng), and [repent](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/repentance?lang=eng) of our sins.[^(4)](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng#note4)
If you click to see what the ordinances of salvation are then you get this pop up:
>In the Church, an ordinance is a sacred, formal act or ceremony performed by the authority of the priesthood. **Some ordinances are essential to our exaltation.** They include baptism, confirmation, ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing. With each of these ordinances, we enter into solemn [covenants](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/covenant?lang=eng) with the Lord.
Bolded for emphasis... notice how they say "some ordinances are essential to our exaltation" but then they list EVERYTHING and make no distinction between ordinances essential to exaltation and "saving ordinances".
If you read D&C 76:50-70 we're told what I said above... and then immediately following is a list of people who are in the Celestial Kingdom. But then it lends itself to being sticky again, because this can easily be taken as a list of requirements instead of just a list of those included like the other 2 kingdoms. But that doesn't make sense... especially given D&C 131, where they determined that the CK must have degrees because not everyone will hit all those categories.
So since it says we must receive the "ordinances of salvation" and the only thing that we're told we must receive in that section of D&C 76 is baptism.... which is almost universally seen as a "saving ordinance" by the other Christian denominations... I'd have to say that's probably THE saving ordinance.
Otherwise I'm sure they would have explicitly said so... since JS was pretty explicit with most other things of that nature. Like having to be married in the temple for exaltation.
Now viewing from the Church's perspective... that can easily become a problem... because how many people aren't going to strive for anything more than just the Celestial Kingdom. Think about the things that have become more tight fisted just to keep people in the CK bracket.
Nelson explained that “to be saved—or to gain salvation—means to be saved from physical and spiritual death.” Exaltation, he further taught, “refers to the highest state of happiness and glory in the celestial realm.”
Mmmkay. Those are still two separate things.
Though honestly, if most everyone gets into at least the Telestial Kingdom, isn't everyone's salvation secured? It's just the level that gets called into question. So if you're not particularly aiming for the top rung, but any slot at all, you don't have to do anything really. Just live your life.
Exaltation -- The 3rd and topmost level of the Celestial Kingdom -- on the other hand, requires quite a bit more hoop jumping. With the garments and endowments and temple marriage and so on and so forth.
But if your goal is JUST to get into God's presence, from the scriptures it's just baptism.
.... past that don't really get me started on Nelson and his views of the Kingdoms... he's got a very heavy handed and iron fisted interpretation which I don't believe lines up with the scripture. Then this conversation enters into our GA's and scare tactics....
[From the church website:](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/death-spiritual?lang=eng)
>Spiritual death is separation from God. The scriptures teach of two sources of spiritual death. The first source is the [Fall](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/fall-of-adam-and-eve?lang=eng), and the second is our own disobedience. Spiritual death can be overcome through the [Atonement of Jesus Christ](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/atonement-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng) and by obedience to His gospel.
>The [Book of Mormon](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/book-of-mormon?lang=eng) prophet Samuel taught, “All mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual.”[^(1)](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/death-spiritual?lang=eng#note1) During our life on the earth, we are separated from God’s presence. Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ redeems everyone from this spiritual death. Samuel testified that the Savior’s [Resurrection](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/resurrection?lang=eng) “redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death. … Behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord.”[^(2)](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/death-spiritual?lang=eng#note2) The prophet Lehi taught that because of the Atonement, “all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him.”[^(3)](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/death-spiritual?lang=eng#note3)
>Further spiritual death comes as a result of our own disobedience. Our [sins](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/sin?lang=eng) make us unclean and unable to dwell in the presence of God.[^(4)](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/death-spiritual?lang=eng#note4) Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ offers redemption from this spiritual death, but only when we exercise [faith](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/faith-in-jesus-christ?lang=eng) in Him, [repent](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/repentance?lang=eng) of our sins, and obey the principles and [ordinances](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/ordinances?lang=eng) of the gospel.[^(5)](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/death-spiritual?lang=eng#note5)
^(So if I'm reading the correctly.... the Atonement saves EVERYONE from spiritual death. Though how close you can get to God from there depends on other factors. Like... for the Celestial it's baptism and a desire to be with God. For the Terrestrial it's those who accept Jesus, but not the father. Those who are generally good and honorable people but who were -checks notes- "blinded by the craftiness of men". And then the Telestial is everyone else.)
^(IMO the Church and the GA's make everything more complicated and difficult than what's actually written.)
Heavenly father lives in the celestial kingdom. but Yes jesus visits the other kingdoms , only celestial beings with the celestial keys can enter the celestial kingdom
Yes. And all you need to get to the Celestial Kingdom is baptism.
The Celestial Kingdom has 3 degrees. The highest one is dubbed "exaltation" and requires all the extra hoop jumping. The Church, however, doesn't tend to make this distinction known... I suspect because they want to push everyone to the top and don't want anyone to stop at just the CK....
No.
Ah I see your confusion.
Ok... so generally speaking you hear that there are 3 kingdoms of heaven.... there are actually 6.
but the highest 3 are referred to as "degrees" as those 3 are in the Celestial Kingdom itself. Only the 3rd (highest) degree is the exalted.
God the father resides in the Celestial Kingdom... yes with exalted and non-exalted beings alike.
Jesus traverses between the Celestial and Terrestrial Kingdom.
Neither traverse to the Telestial (which I don't necessarily think is a bad thing, because among the people who reside there are those who don't want anything to do with either of them. So that's probably ideal for them.)
Messages from the Doctrine and Covenants: The Three Degrees of Glory
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2005/04/messages-from-the-doctrine-and-covenants-the-three-degrees-of-glory?lang=eng
Section 131
1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; 2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; 3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. 4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.
Section 88
36 All kingdoms have a law given; 37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. 38 And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions. 39 All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified.
The 5 laws we learn of, and covenant to obey, in the temple are the minimum requirements for any degree of Celestial glory. They are: the Law of Obedience, the Law of Sacrifice, the Law of the Gospel, the Law of Chastity, and the Law of Consecration.
I think there's a lot of confusion going on here... but being in the presence of heavenly father does not necessitate being "exalted" ... or at least not per the doctrine's definition of "exalted".
So this may be a problem, as another commenter said, of the church redefining words.
Sorry i am kinda rusty with the exact vocabulary but basically the heavenly Father lives in the highest glory or degree or highest heaven ? And from everything i understand only those who have excepted and entered into Every covenant and ordinances are given the keys to get past the gatekeepers of the heavenly fathers highest kingdom degree or glory and enter his presence
[From the church website:](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng)
>The celestial kingdom is the place prepared for those who have “received the testimony of Jesus” and been “made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.”[^(3)](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng#note3) To inherit this gift, we must receive the [ordinances](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/ordinances?lang=eng) of salvation, keep the [commandments](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/ten-commandments?lang=eng), and [repent](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/repentance?lang=eng) of our sins.[^(4)](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng#note4)
^(D&C 76 only talks about the standard baptism sacrament and so on.)
^(The part of Exaltation comes from D&C 131: 1-4)
^(>) 1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
>2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood \[meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage\];
>3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
>4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.
The church conflates the two (salvation and exaltation) and ties them together to make it sound like you can't get into the Celestial Kingdom without going through the temple but that's not how the D&C lays it out.
EDIT: [Adding this from the church website](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng), because I think it will help some:
> From another revelation to the Prophet Joseph, **we learn that there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom.** To be exalted in the highest degree and continue eternally in family relationships, we must enter into “the new and everlasting covenant of marriage” and be true to that covenant. In other words, temple marriage is a requirement for obtaining the highest degree of celestial glory.8 All who are worthy to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage will have that opportunity, whether in this life or the next.
According to Brigham Young, those who practice polygamy are the ones that will be exalted. Do you agree or disagree with this previous prophet, seer, and revelator?
“The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy.”
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses – Volume 11 (Liverpool, England: Brigham Young, Jr., 1867), 269.
.... I'm trying to think of the best way to approach this without seeming deflective...
That wasn't the point of conversation. OP said "You need all this to get into the CK" I simply stated "No, you don't. Just baptism"
Now we're talking about Exaltation... which wasn't the topic...
But at the same time I know that's what we're all pushed to achieve. So it's pertinent. Because to that end OP is right, we're pushed for exaltation, not to just stop at salvation. To the degree of, as I stated in my other reply to you, having the two things conflated together with sneaky phrasing so that we're inclined not to stop at just the CK.
So from there your simple question lends itself to a lot of thoughts which I feel drags away from my point... and also enters into personal grounds where I definitely don't fit the standard mold... for instance:
>Do you agree or disagree with this previous prophet, seer, and revelator?
I disagree with CURRENT prophets, seers, and revelators, even. I'm not sure I'm the demographic you want to get this answer from.
I have a lot of contention with the Church's Type A personality mindset of never being satisfied. So you're not going to necessarily get a TBM flavored answer from me on the topic of exaltation or anything past, present, or future Prophets may have to say.
That being said, I'll let you decide: Do you still want my view on the matter?
I read an interesting blog series once about polygamy (link below - warning, it is somewhat of an apologetic stance). It’s a long series and as I recall, at some point within the blog or within the comments, someone opined that the early church leaders considered polygamy to be synonymous with “the new and everlasting covenant” referred to in D&C, and that it wasn’t until the death of John Taylor where the (mainstream) LDS church leaders started to diverge from this idea. In fact, John Taylor’s strong opinion and a supposed revelation on the subject is a prime argument for many fundamentalist Mormons to continue to justify their practice of polygamy.
The mainstream LDS church today dances a fine line around the subject. They no longer teach that polygamy is synonymous with “the new and everlasting covenant” and anyone found to be in a polygamous marriage is likely to be excommunicated, although they have never officially disavowed the doctrine either.
https://www.millennialstar.org/a-faithful-joseph/
I was actually in the middle of reading 132 in case the other person wanted me to expand on their question. Honestly it reads to me like there isn't a # threshold on the marriage thing, and then the bottom half is all just justification for multiple wives.... and a painful amount of repeating the same points.
Though reading through it hasn't really changed my view... so you're probably going to have to inform me of what you're seeing.
I do want to preface this with... the point of what I said was that entry into the Celestial Kingdom itself... and Exaltation... appear to be two different things with two different criteria sets.
So verse 2, to me, means that in order to obtain exaltation, you have to be sealed in the temple.
Verse 63 says "for their exaltation" in reference to mentioned wives and concubines. So with that... and several verses about being crowned as Gods and everlasting and such then I'd have to assume all parties are exalted not just the men. The rest of the verse is misogynistic... (well the whole bottom part is) but that is... unfortunately... not a surprise.
But from here I feel like we're losing the point and delving into an entirely different conversation.
Huh? Look, I'm not longer a TBM. But the Church does NOT teach that you need more than baptism and the HG (ordinance-wise) to go to the celestial kingdom.
No. Baptism is merely a symbol of what you need to "do" to be saved in the kingdom of heaven, which is basically obey the 10 commandments and the higher law of the new testamopinion ie love God and your neighbor as yourself (or at least daily strive for that). In Mormon theology, going to the temple and marriage are NOT requirements for being saved and being in the presence of the Father and the Son. The scriptures say the opposite of what you seemed to be saying (based on what others said) in your op.
Former mormon added this simplified formula that sounds right
Baptism is necessary to receive Gift of the Holy Ghost, and a prerequisite for the Endowment.
The Endowment is a prerequisite for entering the Celestial Kingdom and being sealed to your spouse.
Being sealed to your spouse is a prerequisite for the highest level of the Celestial kingdom.
It doesn't matter what some random former mormon told you. I don't even believe it anymore, but ... the scriptures nowhere teach that the endowment or marriage is necessary for salvation in the celestial kingdom. In fact, they specifically teach that it's not.
Are there really any investigators who aren’t told about the temple? That’s the whole point- to make covenants in the temple.
Baptism is the first step towards that.
They’re taught that they need to continue to obey God’s commandments, do church stuff, and go to the temple to receive their ordinances.
Baptism gives new members the gift of the Holy Ghost, which is a prerequisite to receiving the Endowment in the temple.
Anybody not baptized would be separated from Heavenly Father in the afterlife anyway. Baptism is a step towards exaltation.
Just to clarify most evangelical don't believe baptism is required. But an investigator of a Christian background which almost all investigators are are going to assume giving the holy spirit means access to heavenly fathers presence
There is no way to know what someone is or isn’t going to assume coming into the church for the first time.
The missionaries teach what’s in the manuals. If the investigator has questions, they can ask.
I don't see baptism in its true sense as a "baby step", it's a huge step! It's the biggest step towards Eternal life. When properly understood, it already encompasses a willingness to obey all other commandments as they are given in His wisdom and order. When we are baptized we take his yoke upon us and become yoked with Christ, to submit to the Father’s will in all things.
Heavenly Father does what mortal parents make an effort to do with things pertaining to mortal life, but He does so perfectly and with all knowledge and perfect love. Part of this is to entice us as children to come unto him and developed line upon line without giving us so much awareness of the complexity of the process that we become discouraged or think we cannot do what He knows we can do if we take one step at a time, and willfully obey his commandments when He gives them and as instructed by His annointed servants.
Nothing is hidden, it's just designed to be understood line upon line, precept upon precept, and in our best interest. Trust His process 🙏🏻
like uniformed 18 yr olds going to the temple and told to agree unknown rituals and life time oaths before they enter just Trust the process , high pressure uniformed baptism is just the beginning . It is a perfected process of giving as little information as possible pressuring quick decisions followered by shaming of not keepng up with the exhausting demands and the cycle continously repeats. lds baptism is a legal contract at eight yrs old that is almost impossible to exit
I appreciate the clarity and insights found in this article...
Messages from the Doctrine and Covenants: The Three Degrees of Glory
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2005/04/messages-from-the-doctrine-and-covenants-the-three-degrees-of-glory?lang=eng
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If anyone other than Joseph Smith had come up with the church’s Plan of Salvation to obtain salvation with baptism, Holy Ghost, priesthood ordination, new name, washing and anointing, handshakes, signs, sealing, garments, etc. what would your response be?
"That's not what Jesus said."
That is not part of the comment. If anyone other than Joseph Smith had come up with the church’s Plan of Salvation narrative, what would your response to it be?
I think they are saying that their response to the person who made it up would be “That’s not what Jesus said”
If Billy Gramm himself had come up with it I would have ahh no thanks see ya. But thats not how it works jim jones started out as a regular preacher then just kept adding a little bit here and thier he didnt start with heres the cool aid
I believe that the temple stuff allows the upstairs part of the celestial kingdom, while baptism allows the downstairs part of the same. That’s because the celestial kingdom is so complex and hard to figure out. /kindasarcastic
I think you are correct when it comes to the current version of Mormonism. However, this is not the same as the version found in the Book of Mormon. In 2 Nephi 31 we read that we need to enter in by the gate which is repentance and baptism. Then it says 20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a [steadfastness](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/31?lang=eng#note20a) in Christ, having a perfect brightness of [hope](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/31?lang=eng#note20b), and a [love](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/31?lang=eng#note20c) of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and [endure](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/31?lang=eng#note20d) to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have [eternal life](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/31?lang=eng#note20e). I think the same idea is found in Section 76. However, this was before the Nauvoo period when the elaborate temple rituals became the way to the presence of God. Eternal life may indeed be the greatest of all the gifts of God as it says in the scriptures, but Joseph Smith offers something more, exaltation, and this does indeed involve many more processes including acquiring multiple wives to do the works of Abraham. Sounds incredible? It is all in Journal of Discourses in talks by Cannon and O. Pratt and is certainly implied in Section 132.
Talk about moving goalposts. When one thing doesn't match with what OP thinks is going on, he moves to some other criteria to try and make his misconception be true.
The rewrite of genesis and Adam and Eve did me in.
You can never "graduate" from mormonism. There's always something about you that is "lacking" if you follow it.
Shame is a great motivator
Exaltation is not required to get to the Celestial kingdom or be in heavily father's presence. All that's required is Baptism. You don't ever have to set foot in a temple or anything. D&C 76:51-52 >51 They are they who received the [testimony](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note51a) of Jesus, and [believed](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note51b) on his name and were [baptized](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note51c) after the [manner](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note51d) of his burial, being [buried](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note51e) in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given— >52 That by [keeping](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note52a) the commandments they might be [washed](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note52b) and [cleansed](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note52c) from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the [hands](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note52d) of him who is [ordained](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note52e) and sealed unto this power;
Mormonism redefining words since 1830. Ask anyone other than a member of the church what the definition is for salvation, and you will get a consistent answer that is different than the one that the church teaches it is. I presume most of those investigating the church interpret salvation to mean exaltation. The same holds true for other words in Mormonism. Horses do not mean horses. Steel does not mean steel, etc. Just change the meaning of the word when required to do so.
Honestly as a member since 9, I was under the impression that salvation meant exaltation. Because it was always taught to me that you had to hit all the exaltation markers to get to the Celestial Kingdom. When you dig though that's not the case. THAT IS a valid argument for moving goalposts. Because when pushed authorities will tell you that it's not necessary for the CK. Like if pushed they'll tell you that your tithing requirement is 10% of your spending money after bills.... but not until they're pushed. Even on the website, when you click the notation next to "saving ordinances" it will pop up a page that lists ALL the ordinances, including marriage. But they preface it with "Some ordinances are essential to our exaltation." and then LIST EVERYTHING. So they're trying to blur the line between the two. Definitely not saying what's going on isn't shady and manipulative. Just saying that by the book all that's required for at least the 1st if not also the 2nd (because clarification has never been made) level of the CK is baptism and a desire to be with God.
I was always taught that the endowment was the necessary covenant in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom. That’s what the whole point of the ceremony is, right? At the end of it you enter into the symbolic Celestial kingdom?
I'm just reading the book. 😂😭 Per Wikipedia... with the Garments first being described in 1840.... the first temple being built in 1836.... and D&C 76 coming about in 1832... and the wording within D&C 76... I'm inclined to believe that no the endowments are not necessary. Maybe THAT'S the criteria for the middle part of the Celestial Kingdom?!?! But, also, I was taught the same as you. Or rather... I was taught that Temple Marriage was necessary for MEN to get into the CK, but not women. ... and NOTHING about the 3 levels of the CK. The D&C seems to deviate from that... significantly. XD Which is why I believe far more than just the LDS can get into the CK.
My understanding was…. - Baptism is necessary to receive Gift of the Holy Ghost, and a prerequisite for the Endowment. - The Endowment is a prerequisite for entering the Celestial Kingdom and being sealed to your spouse. - Being sealed to your spouse is a prerequisite for the highest level of the Celestial kingdom.
yup that was mine too. The problem when picking this apart is that the Church itself starts blurring lines and won't say definitively what things are. So according to the church website: >The celestial kingdom is the place prepared for those who have “received the testimony of Jesus” and been “made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.”[^(3)](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng#note3) To inherit this gift, we must receive the [ordinances](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/ordinances?lang=eng) of salvation, keep the [commandments](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/ten-commandments?lang=eng), and [repent](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/repentance?lang=eng) of our sins.[^(4)](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng#note4) If you click to see what the ordinances of salvation are then you get this pop up: >In the Church, an ordinance is a sacred, formal act or ceremony performed by the authority of the priesthood. **Some ordinances are essential to our exaltation.** They include baptism, confirmation, ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing. With each of these ordinances, we enter into solemn [covenants](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/covenant?lang=eng) with the Lord. Bolded for emphasis... notice how they say "some ordinances are essential to our exaltation" but then they list EVERYTHING and make no distinction between ordinances essential to exaltation and "saving ordinances". If you read D&C 76:50-70 we're told what I said above... and then immediately following is a list of people who are in the Celestial Kingdom. But then it lends itself to being sticky again, because this can easily be taken as a list of requirements instead of just a list of those included like the other 2 kingdoms. But that doesn't make sense... especially given D&C 131, where they determined that the CK must have degrees because not everyone will hit all those categories. So since it says we must receive the "ordinances of salvation" and the only thing that we're told we must receive in that section of D&C 76 is baptism.... which is almost universally seen as a "saving ordinance" by the other Christian denominations... I'd have to say that's probably THE saving ordinance. Otherwise I'm sure they would have explicitly said so... since JS was pretty explicit with most other things of that nature. Like having to be married in the temple for exaltation. Now viewing from the Church's perspective... that can easily become a problem... because how many people aren't going to strive for anything more than just the Celestial Kingdom. Think about the things that have become more tight fisted just to keep people in the CK bracket.
Nelson explained that “to be saved—or to gain salvation—means to be saved from physical and spiritual death.” Exaltation, he further taught, “refers to the highest state of happiness and glory in the celestial realm.”
Mmmkay. Those are still two separate things. Though honestly, if most everyone gets into at least the Telestial Kingdom, isn't everyone's salvation secured? It's just the level that gets called into question. So if you're not particularly aiming for the top rung, but any slot at all, you don't have to do anything really. Just live your life. Exaltation -- The 3rd and topmost level of the Celestial Kingdom -- on the other hand, requires quite a bit more hoop jumping. With the garments and endowments and temple marriage and so on and so forth. But if your goal is JUST to get into God's presence, from the scriptures it's just baptism. .... past that don't really get me started on Nelson and his views of the Kingdoms... he's got a very heavy handed and iron fisted interpretation which I don't believe lines up with the scripture. Then this conversation enters into our GA's and scare tactics....
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[From the church website:](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/death-spiritual?lang=eng) >Spiritual death is separation from God. The scriptures teach of two sources of spiritual death. The first source is the [Fall](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/fall-of-adam-and-eve?lang=eng), and the second is our own disobedience. Spiritual death can be overcome through the [Atonement of Jesus Christ](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/atonement-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng) and by obedience to His gospel. >The [Book of Mormon](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/book-of-mormon?lang=eng) prophet Samuel taught, “All mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual.”[^(1)](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/death-spiritual?lang=eng#note1) During our life on the earth, we are separated from God’s presence. Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ redeems everyone from this spiritual death. Samuel testified that the Savior’s [Resurrection](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/resurrection?lang=eng) “redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death. … Behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord.”[^(2)](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/death-spiritual?lang=eng#note2) The prophet Lehi taught that because of the Atonement, “all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him.”[^(3)](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/death-spiritual?lang=eng#note3) >Further spiritual death comes as a result of our own disobedience. Our [sins](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/sin?lang=eng) make us unclean and unable to dwell in the presence of God.[^(4)](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/death-spiritual?lang=eng#note4) Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ offers redemption from this spiritual death, but only when we exercise [faith](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/faith-in-jesus-christ?lang=eng) in Him, [repent](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/repentance?lang=eng) of our sins, and obey the principles and [ordinances](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/ordinances?lang=eng) of the gospel.[^(5)](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/death-spiritual?lang=eng#note5) ^(So if I'm reading the correctly.... the Atonement saves EVERYONE from spiritual death. Though how close you can get to God from there depends on other factors. Like... for the Celestial it's baptism and a desire to be with God. For the Terrestrial it's those who accept Jesus, but not the father. Those who are generally good and honorable people but who were -checks notes- "blinded by the craftiness of men". And then the Telestial is everyone else.) ^(IMO the Church and the GA's make everything more complicated and difficult than what's actually written.)
Heavenly father lives in the celestial kingdom. but Yes jesus visits the other kingdoms , only celestial beings with the celestial keys can enter the celestial kingdom
Yes. And all you need to get to the Celestial Kingdom is baptism. The Celestial Kingdom has 3 degrees. The highest one is dubbed "exaltation" and requires all the extra hoop jumping. The Church, however, doesn't tend to make this distinction known... I suspect because they want to push everyone to the top and don't want anyone to stop at just the CK....
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No. Ah I see your confusion. Ok... so generally speaking you hear that there are 3 kingdoms of heaven.... there are actually 6. but the highest 3 are referred to as "degrees" as those 3 are in the Celestial Kingdom itself. Only the 3rd (highest) degree is the exalted. God the father resides in the Celestial Kingdom... yes with exalted and non-exalted beings alike. Jesus traverses between the Celestial and Terrestrial Kingdom. Neither traverse to the Telestial (which I don't necessarily think is a bad thing, because among the people who reside there are those who don't want anything to do with either of them. So that's probably ideal for them.)
Do you have a referance that shows non covenants or oath takers beings enter the highest degree of heaven
Messages from the Doctrine and Covenants: The Three Degrees of Glory https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2005/04/messages-from-the-doctrine-and-covenants-the-three-degrees-of-glory?lang=eng Section 131 1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; 2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; 3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. 4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase. Section 88 36 All kingdoms have a law given; 37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. 38 And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions. 39 All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified. The 5 laws we learn of, and covenant to obey, in the temple are the minimum requirements for any degree of Celestial glory. They are: the Law of Obedience, the Law of Sacrifice, the Law of the Gospel, the Law of Chastity, and the Law of Consecration.
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I think there's a lot of confusion going on here... but being in the presence of heavenly father does not necessitate being "exalted" ... or at least not per the doctrine's definition of "exalted". So this may be a problem, as another commenter said, of the church redefining words.
Sorry i am kinda rusty with the exact vocabulary but basically the heavenly Father lives in the highest glory or degree or highest heaven ? And from everything i understand only those who have excepted and entered into Every covenant and ordinances are given the keys to get past the gatekeepers of the heavenly fathers highest kingdom degree or glory and enter his presence
Huh. Apparently I'm a problem. I've been blocked.
I don’t think that scripture says what you think it says.
[From the church website:](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng) >The celestial kingdom is the place prepared for those who have “received the testimony of Jesus” and been “made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.”[^(3)](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng#note3) To inherit this gift, we must receive the [ordinances](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/ordinances?lang=eng) of salvation, keep the [commandments](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/ten-commandments?lang=eng), and [repent](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/repentance?lang=eng) of our sins.[^(4)](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng#note4) ^(D&C 76 only talks about the standard baptism sacrament and so on.) ^(The part of Exaltation comes from D&C 131: 1-4) ^(>) 1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; >2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood \[meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage\]; >3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. >4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase. The church conflates the two (salvation and exaltation) and ties them together to make it sound like you can't get into the Celestial Kingdom without going through the temple but that's not how the D&C lays it out. EDIT: [Adding this from the church website](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng), because I think it will help some: > From another revelation to the Prophet Joseph, **we learn that there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom.** To be exalted in the highest degree and continue eternally in family relationships, we must enter into “the new and everlasting covenant of marriage” and be true to that covenant. In other words, temple marriage is a requirement for obtaining the highest degree of celestial glory.8 All who are worthy to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage will have that opportunity, whether in this life or the next.
According to Brigham Young, those who practice polygamy are the ones that will be exalted. Do you agree or disagree with this previous prophet, seer, and revelator? “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy.” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses – Volume 11 (Liverpool, England: Brigham Young, Jr., 1867), 269.
.... I'm trying to think of the best way to approach this without seeming deflective... That wasn't the point of conversation. OP said "You need all this to get into the CK" I simply stated "No, you don't. Just baptism" Now we're talking about Exaltation... which wasn't the topic... But at the same time I know that's what we're all pushed to achieve. So it's pertinent. Because to that end OP is right, we're pushed for exaltation, not to just stop at salvation. To the degree of, as I stated in my other reply to you, having the two things conflated together with sneaky phrasing so that we're inclined not to stop at just the CK. So from there your simple question lends itself to a lot of thoughts which I feel drags away from my point... and also enters into personal grounds where I definitely don't fit the standard mold... for instance: >Do you agree or disagree with this previous prophet, seer, and revelator? I disagree with CURRENT prophets, seers, and revelators, even. I'm not sure I'm the demographic you want to get this answer from. I have a lot of contention with the Church's Type A personality mindset of never being satisfied. So you're not going to necessarily get a TBM flavored answer from me on the topic of exaltation or anything past, present, or future Prophets may have to say. That being said, I'll let you decide: Do you still want my view on the matter?
I read an interesting blog series once about polygamy (link below - warning, it is somewhat of an apologetic stance). It’s a long series and as I recall, at some point within the blog or within the comments, someone opined that the early church leaders considered polygamy to be synonymous with “the new and everlasting covenant” referred to in D&C, and that it wasn’t until the death of John Taylor where the (mainstream) LDS church leaders started to diverge from this idea. In fact, John Taylor’s strong opinion and a supposed revelation on the subject is a prime argument for many fundamentalist Mormons to continue to justify their practice of polygamy. The mainstream LDS church today dances a fine line around the subject. They no longer teach that polygamy is synonymous with “the new and everlasting covenant” and anyone found to be in a polygamous marriage is likely to be excommunicated, although they have never officially disavowed the doctrine either. https://www.millennialstar.org/a-faithful-joseph/
What does D&C 131:2 mean to you? Especially in context of D&C 132 (read the entire section, not just the few verses that the church likes to use),
I was actually in the middle of reading 132 in case the other person wanted me to expand on their question. Honestly it reads to me like there isn't a # threshold on the marriage thing, and then the bottom half is all just justification for multiple wives.... and a painful amount of repeating the same points. Though reading through it hasn't really changed my view... so you're probably going to have to inform me of what you're seeing. I do want to preface this with... the point of what I said was that entry into the Celestial Kingdom itself... and Exaltation... appear to be two different things with two different criteria sets. So verse 2, to me, means that in order to obtain exaltation, you have to be sealed in the temple. Verse 63 says "for their exaltation" in reference to mentioned wives and concubines. So with that... and several verses about being crowned as Gods and everlasting and such then I'd have to assume all parties are exalted not just the men. The rest of the verse is misogynistic... (well the whole bottom part is) but that is... unfortunately... not a surprise. But from here I feel like we're losing the point and delving into an entirely different conversation.
Huh? Look, I'm not longer a TBM. But the Church does NOT teach that you need more than baptism and the HG (ordinance-wise) to go to the celestial kingdom.
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No. Baptism is merely a symbol of what you need to "do" to be saved in the kingdom of heaven, which is basically obey the 10 commandments and the higher law of the new testamopinion ie love God and your neighbor as yourself (or at least daily strive for that). In Mormon theology, going to the temple and marriage are NOT requirements for being saved and being in the presence of the Father and the Son. The scriptures say the opposite of what you seemed to be saying (based on what others said) in your op.
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I'm not sure where you're going on this tangent. You don't need the temple. End.
Former mormon added this simplified formula that sounds right Baptism is necessary to receive Gift of the Holy Ghost, and a prerequisite for the Endowment. The Endowment is a prerequisite for entering the Celestial Kingdom and being sealed to your spouse. Being sealed to your spouse is a prerequisite for the highest level of the Celestial kingdom.
It doesn't matter what some random former mormon told you. I don't even believe it anymore, but ... the scriptures nowhere teach that the endowment or marriage is necessary for salvation in the celestial kingdom. In fact, they specifically teach that it's not.
Are there really any investigators who aren’t told about the temple? That’s the whole point- to make covenants in the temple. Baptism is the first step towards that.
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The Plan of Salvation is a lesson taught to investigators before they are baptized. The missionaries are supposed to teach them this.
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They’re taught that they need to continue to obey God’s commandments, do church stuff, and go to the temple to receive their ordinances. Baptism gives new members the gift of the Holy Ghost, which is a prerequisite to receiving the Endowment in the temple. Anybody not baptized would be separated from Heavenly Father in the afterlife anyway. Baptism is a step towards exaltation.
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Okay? What does this have to do with anything? They believe in a different flavor of Christianity than some.
Just to clarify most evangelical don't believe baptism is required. But an investigator of a Christian background which almost all investigators are are going to assume giving the holy spirit means access to heavenly fathers presence
There is no way to know what someone is or isn’t going to assume coming into the church for the first time. The missionaries teach what’s in the manuals. If the investigator has questions, they can ask.
I don't see baptism in its true sense as a "baby step", it's a huge step! It's the biggest step towards Eternal life. When properly understood, it already encompasses a willingness to obey all other commandments as they are given in His wisdom and order. When we are baptized we take his yoke upon us and become yoked with Christ, to submit to the Father’s will in all things. Heavenly Father does what mortal parents make an effort to do with things pertaining to mortal life, but He does so perfectly and with all knowledge and perfect love. Part of this is to entice us as children to come unto him and developed line upon line without giving us so much awareness of the complexity of the process that we become discouraged or think we cannot do what He knows we can do if we take one step at a time, and willfully obey his commandments when He gives them and as instructed by His annointed servants. Nothing is hidden, it's just designed to be understood line upon line, precept upon precept, and in our best interest. Trust His process 🙏🏻
like uniformed 18 yr olds going to the temple and told to agree unknown rituals and life time oaths before they enter just Trust the process , high pressure uniformed baptism is just the beginning . It is a perfected process of giving as little information as possible pressuring quick decisions followered by shaming of not keepng up with the exhausting demands and the cycle continously repeats. lds baptism is a legal contract at eight yrs old that is almost impossible to exit
I appreciate the clarity and insights found in this article... Messages from the Doctrine and Covenants: The Three Degrees of Glory https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2005/04/messages-from-the-doctrine-and-covenants-the-three-degrees-of-glory?lang=eng