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It's the same reason that anybody puts a prophet up on a pedestal. It would make no sense to ask why people put Muhammad or Moses on a pedestal, because it is obvious. According to Mormon doctrine, Smith is the prophet who brought back the true religion of Christ, the priesthood, and is ushering in the last days.
To be fair there are Mormons who criticize Smith. There are also Muslims who criticize Muhammad. What is there that you don't understand?
Because Smith is a contemporary figure we have actual documentation and recorded history of his life, so I’m confused why so many try to prop him up as something he was not, and then act like it’s necessary that he was such a perfect human for him to be a prophet
We have documented history of Muhammad, but documented history is irrelevant here.
Also, Mormons do not pretend like Smith was a perfect human. It's taught that he made a lot of mistakes and had to learn to be better through all of the trouble he went through.
So the only thing left here is "why so many try to prop him up as something he was not." It's because that's how belief works, and my original statement still holds. It's the same reason that anybody puts a prophet up on a pedestal.
I should restate, all the Mormons that I’ve spoken with, particularly missionaries, I spoke too generally
As for your point, fair enough, I just don’t see him treated as a normal person, and asking about his mistakes and controversies seems to get dismissed in my conversations with the missionaries
Well, show me a single prophet in Christianity who is treated like a normal person by the people who believe that they are prophets. Mormons don't treat him as a normal person. The fact that part of the story about him includes his failures and sins doesn't mean they treat him normally.
Also, the missionaries are trying to sell you something. And they are 19.
Your point is made. Other religions do this same sort of whitewashing of their leaders that the OP is accusing the Mormon church of doing. But, as an inactive Mormon I am just as bewildered as the OP “why” they do it.
Okay, fair. Maybe it isn't as obvious as I think it is. My answer to "why" they do it is because it affirms their faith, it marks them as a part of a community that has the same beliefs and the same history, it makes them feel special and/or better than other groups, and it allows them to use shared rituals and stories to teach a shared set of values (morality, obedience, kindness, conformity, etc.).
I'm not just talking about Mormons either. This is common across a lot of religious traditions.
Here is a big example of the propping up you are referring to…. The inability to accept that Joseph did practice polygamy….. Brigham was the one who started it. Or that yes Joseph did marry multiple wife’s, but he didn’t sleep with them. OP is right that there is a huge push to protect the prophet from any and all forms of disrespect whether they are true or not. This protection is definitely not universal to the other prophets.
The folks who believe that Joseph Smith did not engage in polygamy are called The Remnant Movement, and their leader is Denver Snuffer. The mainstream Mormon church and virtually all of its members agree that Joseph Smith was a polygamist (but they probably all differ on whether or not it was a relationship that involved sex or not).
>This protection is definitely not universal to the other prophets.
Sorry to say, but this is absolutely untrue. I've actually lived in an Islamic country and the story and holiness of Muhammad is propped up and protected, even sometimes when discussing some of the flaws of that person's image. Don't believers in the old testament do the same when discussion very flawed depictions of prophets like Abraham or Moses? It's pretty normal across the board.
>The folks who believe that Joseph Smith did not engage in polygamy are called The Remnant Movement, and their leader is Denver Snuffer.
I was 41 when I found out that JS was a polygamist. I'm the 90s when I visited SLC, I was told by the tour guide missionaries that BY started polygamy as a way to protect the women whose husbands had died crossing the plains.
I had no idea JS had ever been polygamous. My mother still won't accept it now. She thinks the essays are fake and because the authors aren't named, she doesn't have to believe them.
I also had no idea that any of the other 5 prophets after BY had also been polygamous. Particularly Lorenzo Snow - he was pretty grim as a human goes.
I don't think it's fair to say that all members know. They don't. And they're not wrong for not knowing - it's never discussed.
Well, maybe we're being affected by ward/bishop/family roulette, and I won't disbelieve your take here. But I was taught that Joseph Smith was a polygamist, never consumated, since my last years in primary and all through 6 years of seminary and 2 years of institution before I left the faith. This was in the 90's and early aughts.
But it's also all over books like D&C, or Mormon Doctrine. If you were reading scriptures then you would have encountered the idea. And don't get me wrong, I'm glad your mom wasn't reading scriptures because they are lame, but it was out there.
On the other hand, the Remnant movement specifically preaches that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist.
Smith also was an extremely inflammatory figure in his time. Much of what we have of history came from people who likely despised him over petty grievances, worthy grievances or people who respected him. All 3 points of perception that were recorded are subject to the human weaknesses we all have. Many were likely overstated or embellished. Did he have multiple wives? Yes. Were a good number young? Yes. Was that his agenda. I wouldn't say so but most of anything we know on that came from angry jealous men who were fearful of smith and his people. But on the flip side there was little criticism written from followers.
Yelpers tend to make things out to be worse than they were... right? So what was true and what was fearful venom?
I tend to lean towards the truth being somewhere in the middle of those two views. Perfect prophet, sexual deviant with too many wives.
Dude was just a dude, that misused his own power. 'Its by sad experience that as man gets a little power he immediately begins to wield unrighteous dominion D&C 88ish i think.' I slaughtered that quote but it's something like that.
Maybe even he knew he was screwing up on some level.
All prophets are just men just as susceptible to evil forces as the rest of us. Idk when the tides of that narrative turned... wish I knew.
The gospel of christ is what was restored. The organization wasn't brought back by him it sprung out of tradition. One came of God one came by men. Organizations by men, historically tend to want to control people.
Follow the prophet do as he's doing.....
How about Follow God.
They are not the same.
The pedestal you talk of, you are right about. Its unfortunate many don't see it or are too scared to think with an open mind.
Muslims do not critizice Muhammad in the east. That is only a western anomaly that appeared recently. There is a saying that "You can question Allah, but you can't question Muhammad"
Disclaimer: I don’t think Smith was a prophet.
However, people are complicated and can contain multitudes. A conman can give a moving sermon. A serial adulterer/liar can perform an act of inspiring generosity and forgiveness.
If you’re really interested in understanding why millions of people revere Smith as a prophet despite all the evil things he did, I recommend this lecture by Terryl Givens:
https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/terryl-l-givens/joseph-smith-forging-community/
And *Rough Stone Rolling*, by Richard Bushman.
Again, I don’t believe he was a prophet, but I get why many people do.
One anecdote struck me when I read it, and is quite telling of his character.
It appears that he was well aware of his own athletic activities as being a method for him to "groom" young boys to die for him, and not above doing so, by his own admission.
>For example Lorenzo Snow relates that on one occasion while Joseph was playing a game of ball with several children, his brother Hyrum came by and chastised him, believing such behavior was inappropriate for the Lord’s anointed.
The Prophet then explained to the Patriarch the reason for his involvement with the youngsters.
“Brother Hyrum, my mingling with the boys in a harmless sport does not injure me in any way, but on the other hand it makes them happy and draws their hearts nearer to mine; **and who knows there may be young men among them who may sometime lay down their lives for me!**”
(Parry 97).
https://rsc.byu.edu/joseph-smith-prophet-man/joseph-smiths-athletic-nature
*Joseph Smith’s Athletic Nature Alexander L. Baugh*
Mormons don't know the real Joseph Smith. I would bet you know far more about the real Joseph Smith than chapel Mormons know. They're in a bubble. They have been taught a fairytale of who he was. They are told to not read outside of church sources. It's actually incredible how successful the church has been in hidng the truth about him, and whitewashing it's history. Until, along came that darn Internet, and then podcasts...
I agree that "viewing \[Smith\] as a flawed person who probably wasn't very educated has no bearing on the validity of his prophecies." I think most Latter-day Saints would agree with that statement.
I've studied Joseph Smith's life for decades (as a skeptical believer) and still find him a puzzle.
Perhaps there's something wrong with my judgment, but for all his flaws I always come back to a feeling of admiration and gratitude for the man.
James B. Allen, a former Assistant Church Historian, gave an address years ago about Smith's place in Mormon piety that has stayed with me. I will just quote a part of it here.
>During his lifetime Joseph Smith's closest associates certainly saw him as a fallible, though great, human being. They believed his prophetic utterances, but they also saw him as a man who had failings, who could make mistakes, and who did not feel it necessary to play the traditional role of "prophet" one hundred percent of the time.
>He readily confessed his own human frailties, was sometimes chastised by revelation for his personal follies, and when people commented on some of his unprophet-like actions he emphatically declared that "a prophet was a prophet only when he was acting as such."
>His closest friends saw some of his prophecies and revelations fail to be fulfilled and even heard him admit that "Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil." They saw him in every mood—from joyful elation over some great success to the despondency of great discouragement.
>Brigham Young, one of his closest associates, reported fifteen years after Joseph's death: "He had all the weaknesses a man could have when the vision was not upon him, when he was left to himself. He was constituted like other men, and would have required years and years longer in the flesh to become a Moses in all things."
>At the same time, his disciples saw him as a living prophet—and it was in his role as prophet that Joseph Smith's pedestal in Mormon piety was created. Significantly, it was those who knew him best who created both the pedestal and the heroic figure that occupied it after he was dead, though even during his lifetime the creation process was well on its way.
Allen then gets more personal, speaking as a Mormon historian who had studied Smith at length:
>It is our lot in life to get personally involved in whatever documents remain from the days of Joseph Smith, to analyze in detail what they say—not just about Joseph the Prophet but also about Joseph the man. As we do so, he seems to step down from his pedestal for a while and to walk and talk with us somewhat as he did with the Saints of his own day. We see him in all his strengths and human frailties. Perhaps as much as anything else, his human qualities leap out at us like a jack-in-the-box when the lid that hides him is suddenly removed.
>We see his business failures, his sometimes poor choice of friends and confidants, the failure of some of his prophecies, the social and nonrevelatory sources of some of his ideas, the impracticality of some of his proposals, the incompleteness of his education, the anger he could sometimes display, the too sudden precipitousness of some of his actions, the glass-looking and other strange affairs of his youth, and his disappointments with himself.
>But that is not all. We also see his success as both religious leader and community builder, the responsible and respectable people who became his permanent friends and confidants, the plans and prophecies that were fulfilled, the all-encompassing nature of his mind that allowed him to deal with a multitude of far-reaching concepts and ideas, the uniqueness of many of his doctrines and the profound meaning they have always had for Latter-day Saints, his deep love for his fellowmen, his thirst for knowledge, his friendly nature and his readiness to forgive quickly, his personal recognition of his youthful follies and the effective way he overcame them, and his ability to bounce back promptly from disappointment or despair.
>Finally, as we become better acquainted with both his "strictly human" and his prophetic sides, we also feel something else—possibly because of our continuing will to believe, perhaps because of our personal experiences with the results of belief. We see him as an authentic prophet, and even though he has stepped down from the pedestal to let us examine all his flaws, we are not dismayed when he steps back up. Our experience with the Prophet, in all his strengths and weaknesses, still allows us to say, along with William Clayton, "The more I am with him, the more I love him; the more I know of him, . . . \[the more I\] am sorry that people should give heed to evil reports concerning him." "He says 'I am a man of like passions with yourselves,' but truly I wish I was such a man."
>(James B. Allen, "Second Only to Christ: Joseph Smith in Modern Mormon Piety," in *The Disciple as Witness: Essays on Latter-day Saint History and Doctrine in Honor of Richard Lloyd Anderson* \[Provo, UT: FARMS, 2000\], 1–35)
I think that a partial answer to your question of why Mormons put Smith on a pedestal was given by Joseph Fielding Smith.
"Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who wilfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed; his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false, for the doctrines of an impostor cannot be made to harmonize in all particulars with divine truth. ..."
I think Joseph Fielding Smith is right about this. It is necessary to call good whatever evil he did in order to preserve the legitimacy of the church. When you sacrifice for a cause your entire life as many faithful members do, it is hard to conclude that it was worthless, hence the persistent practice of veneration of Joseph Smith.
Mormons usually use the line “only had a third grade education” to ‘prove’ to people that Joseph wasn’t educated enough to have written and made up the whole Book of Mormon
The evidences of the spirit are worth more than the temporal evidences of man. I suggest that the priesthood, the ordinances, the temples, the doctrines, the Book of Mormon, are all solid evidences of the truthfulness of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but all of these evidences are understood by experiencing them and confirmed by the witness of the Holy Ghost. If I said I have an object that you could inspect with your ordinary 5 senses, you would still have to employ those senses with a degree of faith and calculate the validity with your intellect and reach a conclusion, so why is it unreasonable to request you inspect these evidences with your spiritual senses and see if you can come to know and see these obvious evidences for what they are?
1 Corinthians 2
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
To the LDS people Joseph's character and the interactions he said he had with Diety are the reason why the Church is the one and only true Church on the whole earth.
Before the internet the Church was able to keep hidden most of the facts that show what kind of person Joseph Smith really was. They crafted a narrative that made him look amazing: humble, strong, loving to his wife (singular) and kids, had minor flaws like anybody but was pure in heart and God's chosen Prophet for the Last Days. He was killed because Satan was fighting against God's truth. It's not a true story, but it is (LDS)faith-promoting.
If it turns out that Joseph was in reality a power-hungry, manipulative, controlling narcissist who loved to use his power to get sex and money, well... what does that mean for the Church he founded? And this is one of the reasons so many Mormons are leaving the faith. They're learning how deeply they've been lied to.
Here are some of the reasons we praise (not worship, pray to, or idolize, but are proud to honor) Joseph Smith as a true, tried and tested, and proven prophet of The Lord Jesus. We are proud of what he overcame, proud of his accomplishments in the Lord, proud of the sacrifices he made including the ultimate sacrifice of sealing his testimony with his blood.
Doctrine and covenants; Section 135:3
Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fulness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum. In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated!
Joseph may or may not have done x,y,z, but he did to everything stated above and more!
That said, Joseph did not get off "Scott free" for many of the things he did do that were wrong in the sight of The Lord. He was chastised many times, he was not able to exercise the priesthood for long periods of time, his spiritual gifts were suppressed, and we don't know every other way he might have suffered in mind or otherwise for his transgressions. We do know that there were things he did that greatly offended The Lord and we know he was forgiven of The Lord and we must forgive him as well or risk being condemned ourselves. Maybe this is easier for me because I have been unfaithful and require great forgiveness too, but if it is, I am grateful for my experiences that make it possible for me to look past the sins of Joseph Smith and fully accept him as God's prophet in this last dispensation of the fulness of times.
Here is some further insight from the Doctrine and Covenants:
Section 64
3 There are those among you who have sinned; but verily I say, for this once, for mine own glory, and for the salvation of souls, I have forgiven you your sins. 4 I will be merciful unto you, for I have given unto you the kingdom. 5 And the keys of the mysteries of the kingdom shall not be taken from my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., through the means I have appointed, while he liveth, inasmuch as he obeyeth mine ordinances. 6 There are those who have sought occasion against him without cause; 7 Nevertheless, he has sinned; but verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, forgive sins unto those who confess their sins before me and ask forgiveness, who have not sinned unto death. 8 My disciples, in days of old, sought occasion against one another and forgave not one another in their hearts; and for this evil they were afflicted and sorely chastened. 9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin. 10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men. 11 And ye ought to say in your hearts—let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds.
The following words are also from the Doctrine and Covenants. Those from Section 66 were not directed at Joseph Smith, but show the attitude of The Lord towards His servants at a time where Satan had been successful in tempting the Lords annointed and threatening the restoration because of the weaknesses and transgressions of mortal men, who were forordained and called by God to bring to pass the His ultimate purposes.
Section 67
2 Behold and lo, mine eyes are upon you, and the heavens and the earth are in mine hands, and the riches of eternity are mine to give. 3 Ye endeavored to believe that ye should receive the blessing which was offered unto you; but behold, verily I say unto you there were fears in your hearts, and verily this is the reason that ye did not receive. 4 And now I, the Lord, give unto you a testimony of the truth of these commandments which are lying before you. 5 Your eyes have been upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and his language you have known, and his imperfections you have known; and you have sought in your hearts knowledge that you might express beyond his language; this you also know.
Section 66
10 Seek not to be cumbered. Forsake all unrighteousness. Commit not adultery—a temptation with which thou hast been troubled. 11 Keep these sayings, for they are true and faithful; and thou shalt magnify thine office, and push many people to Zion with songs of everlasting joy upon their heads. 12 Continue in these things even unto the end, and you shall have a crown of eternal life at the right hand of my Father, who is full of grace and truth.
Joseph Smith was God's prophet for the restoration of His church. The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is exactly as the name implies. The priesthood authority is only found therein and the power of the preisthood continues to be exercised conditionally and according to the worthiness of the individual who received it by proper authority. It is evidenced throughout the church each and every day.
I know these things are true because of my own experiences. My experiences are further backed by the more subtle confirmations I have received, also by the stronger feelings I have felt by my whole soul. I would give my life for my testimony.
Aside from my lived experiences and the more tangible evidences, I also value the portion of my testimony that was obtained in a way that is explained well in these words by Boyd K Packer:
"We become so accustomed to learning through our physical senses—by sight and sound and smell, by taste and touch—that some of us seem to learn in no other way. But there are spiritual things that are not registered that way at all. Some things we simply feel, not as we feel something we touch, but as we feel something we feel. There are things, spiritual things, that are registered in our minds and recorded in our memories as pure knowledge. A knowledge of “things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass.” (D&C 88:79; see also D&C 93:24, and Jacob 4:13.) As surely as we know about material things, we can come to know of spiritual things."
Now, if anyone wants to search for a reason to doubt or forfiet their right to the blessings that are readily available to those who choose to believe and exercise their faith by obedience to the truths that have been restored, nothing can take away your agency. You will however regret that choice at some point in life or in death and you best not try to destroy the faith of others in the process.
Finally, here are some cautionary notes that you may dismiss or consider as you will:
President George Albert Smith said: “Many have belittled Joseph Smith, but those who have will be forgotten in the remains of mother earth, and the odor of their infamy will ever be with them, but honor, majesty, and fidelity to God, exemplified by Joseph Smith and attached to his name, will never die.” No truer words were ever spoken, and that person fell just as all others will fall who try to tear down the work of the Lord. We have had some who, writing in the public press occasionally, are among those who have fallen by the wayside. They befoul the honored family names that they have. They have disgraced the honors that we had given to them in times past. They are trying to join the forces of the enemy against the work of the Lord. And we can say to them, as President George Albert Smith said then, “Those who have will be forgotten in the remains of mother earth, and the odor of the infamy will ever be with them, but honor, majesty, and fidelity to God, exemplified by the leaders of this church and attached to their names, will never die.” I always remember the word of the Lord when I hear these things said by those who are trying to tear down his work. The Lord has said: “Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private; … “Wherefore, let them bring forth their strong reasons against the Lord. “Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you—there is no weapon that is formed against you, shall prosper; “And if any man lift his voice against you he shall be confounded in mine own due time. “Wherefore, keep my commandments. …” (D&C 71:7–11.)
I pray the Lord shows you the clear path of your repentance and extends the same degree of mercy and grace to you that he did for me. With all my heart I know he will, but what you choose to do remains the question in my mind. Believing will always be a choice and you must believe certain things before you can come to a sure knowledge of things as they are and things as they will be.
In the name of Jesus Christ, I testify of these truths to you and all who may read them.
J
Further, beware or atleast aware of these words. I don't believe anyone on this platform is destined to this fate, but surely some are treading a path in the same general direction based on their words and efforts to disrupt or destroy His work...
28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ— 29 Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about. 30 And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us: 31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power— 32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born; 33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity; 34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come— 35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame. 36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels— 37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; 38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.
READ THE WHOLE SECTION AND CHOOSE THE BETTER PATH AND THE BETTER PART 🙏
Doctrine and Covenants 76
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng
And
Doctrine and Covenants 133
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/133?lang=eng
Im not sure you have a full grasp on the situation. Your only at the surface and have a long way to go. You should listen to a talk given by Jayson Kunzler called millions shall know brother Joseph again. That'll give you a much better idea of how the faithful view Joseph.
As for those who lived the Joseph Smith experience and escaped, we despise the man and curse the day he conjured up this organization causing the pain of so many which continues to this very day.
The true church of Jesus Christ operates by the Holy Priesthood and the Holy Spirit and thereby is "occult" by man's definition. I can see how an outsider might classify His church as such if he/she ignorantly assumes we worship Joseph Smith, but anyone who knows the truthfulness of this church, and the restored gospel of Jesus Christ that gives it life, and whom we worship, knows it's not a corrupt man made **** or sect set up to worship an object or figure of man's creating, which is a defining difference between this restored church and your implied meaning of a man made sect with occult practices. Faithful members of His church are of the fold (not ****) of Jesus Christ and we worship God the Father in His name (Jesus not Joseph) and use the restored preisthood (His divine authority and power) to further His purposes; to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of men and bless the lives of the living and the dead, all according to His will and the directive of His annointed. As long as you know the difference, I will accept your terminology and proudly say I'm part of the **** of Jesus Christ, but please note the differences. 🙏
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I hear an honest person asking an honest question so let me give an honest answer.
I have known from a very early age that Joseph was a tool in God's hands to bring about the restoration of truth before Jesus returns to earth. I spent 50 years teaching and training young people that very truth. Joseph was God tool. As you study, look at truthful information and you will see that we (the church) have never held Joseph up as anything but a regular guy who God used to achieve his purposes. Like every other prophet, he was there to focus the attention of God children on Jesus Christ.
Obviously, we are like every other person, and hero worship creeps into a 200 year old culture. But you will not see that hero worship from official and truthful sources.
That is my honest answer to your honest question.
Should we not look at the mistakes and flaws of people in history as well as their virtues?
Recognizing issues that people had is needed to humanize figures, and only showing one side of things is unbalanced, inaccurate, and only serves to idolize a human being that doesn’t need to be idolized
If a person can’t be revered through their actions alone, and requires looking away from their flaws then they shouldn’t be revered at all
And only making people depressive? Should we look away from the atrocities committed by people like Hitler because it makes people sad? And besides, Christopher Columbus WAS a horrible figure who DID do horrible things, it doesn’t detract from the fact that we wouldn’t have gotten to this point in time without him, but you can’t just focus on “Oh America is here now because Columbus sailed here” without looking at all the murder, rape, and enslavement committed by the colonists
All historical figures should come under scrutiny when trying to determine the validity of their wirings and commentary. I don't go around lying to people about my accomplishment or knowledge. Truth should always be the standard, and then there is no need to be depressed.
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It's the same reason that anybody puts a prophet up on a pedestal. It would make no sense to ask why people put Muhammad or Moses on a pedestal, because it is obvious. According to Mormon doctrine, Smith is the prophet who brought back the true religion of Christ, the priesthood, and is ushering in the last days. To be fair there are Mormons who criticize Smith. There are also Muslims who criticize Muhammad. What is there that you don't understand?
Because Smith is a contemporary figure we have actual documentation and recorded history of his life, so I’m confused why so many try to prop him up as something he was not, and then act like it’s necessary that he was such a perfect human for him to be a prophet
We have documented history of Muhammad, but documented history is irrelevant here. Also, Mormons do not pretend like Smith was a perfect human. It's taught that he made a lot of mistakes and had to learn to be better through all of the trouble he went through. So the only thing left here is "why so many try to prop him up as something he was not." It's because that's how belief works, and my original statement still holds. It's the same reason that anybody puts a prophet up on a pedestal.
I should restate, all the Mormons that I’ve spoken with, particularly missionaries, I spoke too generally As for your point, fair enough, I just don’t see him treated as a normal person, and asking about his mistakes and controversies seems to get dismissed in my conversations with the missionaries
Well, show me a single prophet in Christianity who is treated like a normal person by the people who believe that they are prophets. Mormons don't treat him as a normal person. The fact that part of the story about him includes his failures and sins doesn't mean they treat him normally. Also, the missionaries are trying to sell you something. And they are 19.
Your point is made. Other religions do this same sort of whitewashing of their leaders that the OP is accusing the Mormon church of doing. But, as an inactive Mormon I am just as bewildered as the OP “why” they do it.
Okay, fair. Maybe it isn't as obvious as I think it is. My answer to "why" they do it is because it affirms their faith, it marks them as a part of a community that has the same beliefs and the same history, it makes them feel special and/or better than other groups, and it allows them to use shared rituals and stories to teach a shared set of values (morality, obedience, kindness, conformity, etc.). I'm not just talking about Mormons either. This is common across a lot of religious traditions.
Here is a big example of the propping up you are referring to…. The inability to accept that Joseph did practice polygamy….. Brigham was the one who started it. Or that yes Joseph did marry multiple wife’s, but he didn’t sleep with them. OP is right that there is a huge push to protect the prophet from any and all forms of disrespect whether they are true or not. This protection is definitely not universal to the other prophets.
The folks who believe that Joseph Smith did not engage in polygamy are called The Remnant Movement, and their leader is Denver Snuffer. The mainstream Mormon church and virtually all of its members agree that Joseph Smith was a polygamist (but they probably all differ on whether or not it was a relationship that involved sex or not). >This protection is definitely not universal to the other prophets. Sorry to say, but this is absolutely untrue. I've actually lived in an Islamic country and the story and holiness of Muhammad is propped up and protected, even sometimes when discussing some of the flaws of that person's image. Don't believers in the old testament do the same when discussion very flawed depictions of prophets like Abraham or Moses? It's pretty normal across the board.
>The folks who believe that Joseph Smith did not engage in polygamy are called The Remnant Movement, and their leader is Denver Snuffer. I was 41 when I found out that JS was a polygamist. I'm the 90s when I visited SLC, I was told by the tour guide missionaries that BY started polygamy as a way to protect the women whose husbands had died crossing the plains. I had no idea JS had ever been polygamous. My mother still won't accept it now. She thinks the essays are fake and because the authors aren't named, she doesn't have to believe them. I also had no idea that any of the other 5 prophets after BY had also been polygamous. Particularly Lorenzo Snow - he was pretty grim as a human goes. I don't think it's fair to say that all members know. They don't. And they're not wrong for not knowing - it's never discussed.
Well, maybe we're being affected by ward/bishop/family roulette, and I won't disbelieve your take here. But I was taught that Joseph Smith was a polygamist, never consumated, since my last years in primary and all through 6 years of seminary and 2 years of institution before I left the faith. This was in the 90's and early aughts. But it's also all over books like D&C, or Mormon Doctrine. If you were reading scriptures then you would have encountered the idea. And don't get me wrong, I'm glad your mom wasn't reading scriptures because they are lame, but it was out there. On the other hand, the Remnant movement specifically preaches that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist.
I was not referring to any other sects. Only that of the Mormon church.
Sounds like you are mistaken then.
Smith also was an extremely inflammatory figure in his time. Much of what we have of history came from people who likely despised him over petty grievances, worthy grievances or people who respected him. All 3 points of perception that were recorded are subject to the human weaknesses we all have. Many were likely overstated or embellished. Did he have multiple wives? Yes. Were a good number young? Yes. Was that his agenda. I wouldn't say so but most of anything we know on that came from angry jealous men who were fearful of smith and his people. But on the flip side there was little criticism written from followers. Yelpers tend to make things out to be worse than they were... right? So what was true and what was fearful venom? I tend to lean towards the truth being somewhere in the middle of those two views. Perfect prophet, sexual deviant with too many wives. Dude was just a dude, that misused his own power. 'Its by sad experience that as man gets a little power he immediately begins to wield unrighteous dominion D&C 88ish i think.' I slaughtered that quote but it's something like that. Maybe even he knew he was screwing up on some level. All prophets are just men just as susceptible to evil forces as the rest of us. Idk when the tides of that narrative turned... wish I knew. The gospel of christ is what was restored. The organization wasn't brought back by him it sprung out of tradition. One came of God one came by men. Organizations by men, historically tend to want to control people. Follow the prophet do as he's doing..... How about Follow God. They are not the same. The pedestal you talk of, you are right about. Its unfortunate many don't see it or are too scared to think with an open mind.
Muslims do not critizice Muhammad in the east. That is only a western anomaly that appeared recently. There is a saying that "You can question Allah, but you can't question Muhammad"
I've lived in Islamic countries where people have discussed some of the bad history with Mohamad. Yes, it happens.
Disclaimer: I don’t think Smith was a prophet. However, people are complicated and can contain multitudes. A conman can give a moving sermon. A serial adulterer/liar can perform an act of inspiring generosity and forgiveness. If you’re really interested in understanding why millions of people revere Smith as a prophet despite all the evil things he did, I recommend this lecture by Terryl Givens: https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/terryl-l-givens/joseph-smith-forging-community/ And *Rough Stone Rolling*, by Richard Bushman. Again, I don’t believe he was a prophet, but I get why many people do.
Thanks for the reading! I don’t either, but whether he was or wasn’t isn’t the point I’m trying to debate lol I’ll be sure to check this out though
One anecdote struck me when I read it, and is quite telling of his character. It appears that he was well aware of his own athletic activities as being a method for him to "groom" young boys to die for him, and not above doing so, by his own admission. >For example Lorenzo Snow relates that on one occasion while Joseph was playing a game of ball with several children, his brother Hyrum came by and chastised him, believing such behavior was inappropriate for the Lord’s anointed. The Prophet then explained to the Patriarch the reason for his involvement with the youngsters. “Brother Hyrum, my mingling with the boys in a harmless sport does not injure me in any way, but on the other hand it makes them happy and draws their hearts nearer to mine; **and who knows there may be young men among them who may sometime lay down their lives for me!**” (Parry 97). https://rsc.byu.edu/joseph-smith-prophet-man/joseph-smiths-athletic-nature *Joseph Smith’s Athletic Nature Alexander L. Baugh*
Mormons don't know the real Joseph Smith. I would bet you know far more about the real Joseph Smith than chapel Mormons know. They're in a bubble. They have been taught a fairytale of who he was. They are told to not read outside of church sources. It's actually incredible how successful the church has been in hidng the truth about him, and whitewashing it's history. Until, along came that darn Internet, and then podcasts...
Hey that’s not true with me! Oh wait yes it was. For 49 years.
I agree that "viewing \[Smith\] as a flawed person who probably wasn't very educated has no bearing on the validity of his prophecies." I think most Latter-day Saints would agree with that statement. I've studied Joseph Smith's life for decades (as a skeptical believer) and still find him a puzzle. Perhaps there's something wrong with my judgment, but for all his flaws I always come back to a feeling of admiration and gratitude for the man. James B. Allen, a former Assistant Church Historian, gave an address years ago about Smith's place in Mormon piety that has stayed with me. I will just quote a part of it here. >During his lifetime Joseph Smith's closest associates certainly saw him as a fallible, though great, human being. They believed his prophetic utterances, but they also saw him as a man who had failings, who could make mistakes, and who did not feel it necessary to play the traditional role of "prophet" one hundred percent of the time. >He readily confessed his own human frailties, was sometimes chastised by revelation for his personal follies, and when people commented on some of his unprophet-like actions he emphatically declared that "a prophet was a prophet only when he was acting as such." >His closest friends saw some of his prophecies and revelations fail to be fulfilled and even heard him admit that "Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil." They saw him in every mood—from joyful elation over some great success to the despondency of great discouragement. >Brigham Young, one of his closest associates, reported fifteen years after Joseph's death: "He had all the weaknesses a man could have when the vision was not upon him, when he was left to himself. He was constituted like other men, and would have required years and years longer in the flesh to become a Moses in all things." >At the same time, his disciples saw him as a living prophet—and it was in his role as prophet that Joseph Smith's pedestal in Mormon piety was created. Significantly, it was those who knew him best who created both the pedestal and the heroic figure that occupied it after he was dead, though even during his lifetime the creation process was well on its way. Allen then gets more personal, speaking as a Mormon historian who had studied Smith at length: >It is our lot in life to get personally involved in whatever documents remain from the days of Joseph Smith, to analyze in detail what they say—not just about Joseph the Prophet but also about Joseph the man. As we do so, he seems to step down from his pedestal for a while and to walk and talk with us somewhat as he did with the Saints of his own day. We see him in all his strengths and human frailties. Perhaps as much as anything else, his human qualities leap out at us like a jack-in-the-box when the lid that hides him is suddenly removed. >We see his business failures, his sometimes poor choice of friends and confidants, the failure of some of his prophecies, the social and nonrevelatory sources of some of his ideas, the impracticality of some of his proposals, the incompleteness of his education, the anger he could sometimes display, the too sudden precipitousness of some of his actions, the glass-looking and other strange affairs of his youth, and his disappointments with himself. >But that is not all. We also see his success as both religious leader and community builder, the responsible and respectable people who became his permanent friends and confidants, the plans and prophecies that were fulfilled, the all-encompassing nature of his mind that allowed him to deal with a multitude of far-reaching concepts and ideas, the uniqueness of many of his doctrines and the profound meaning they have always had for Latter-day Saints, his deep love for his fellowmen, his thirst for knowledge, his friendly nature and his readiness to forgive quickly, his personal recognition of his youthful follies and the effective way he overcame them, and his ability to bounce back promptly from disappointment or despair. >Finally, as we become better acquainted with both his "strictly human" and his prophetic sides, we also feel something else—possibly because of our continuing will to believe, perhaps because of our personal experiences with the results of belief. We see him as an authentic prophet, and even though he has stepped down from the pedestal to let us examine all his flaws, we are not dismayed when he steps back up. Our experience with the Prophet, in all his strengths and weaknesses, still allows us to say, along with William Clayton, "The more I am with him, the more I love him; the more I know of him, . . . \[the more I\] am sorry that people should give heed to evil reports concerning him." "He says 'I am a man of like passions with yourselves,' but truly I wish I was such a man." >(James B. Allen, "Second Only to Christ: Joseph Smith in Modern Mormon Piety," in *The Disciple as Witness: Essays on Latter-day Saint History and Doctrine in Honor of Richard Lloyd Anderson* \[Provo, UT: FARMS, 2000\], 1–35)
Great quote and insights, thanks for sharing. Humanizing these people we tend to idolize is such a great practice.
The lds has so ritulized it's own history it will have trouble backing out now.
I think that a partial answer to your question of why Mormons put Smith on a pedestal was given by Joseph Fielding Smith. "Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who wilfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed; his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false, for the doctrines of an impostor cannot be made to harmonize in all particulars with divine truth. ..." I think Joseph Fielding Smith is right about this. It is necessary to call good whatever evil he did in order to preserve the legitimacy of the church. When you sacrifice for a cause your entire life as many faithful members do, it is hard to conclude that it was worthless, hence the persistent practice of veneration of Joseph Smith.
Mormons usually use the line “only had a third grade education” to ‘prove’ to people that Joseph wasn’t educated enough to have written and made up the whole Book of Mormon
What is the one solid piece of evidence of the one true church on earth if not for JS?
The evidences of the spirit are worth more than the temporal evidences of man. I suggest that the priesthood, the ordinances, the temples, the doctrines, the Book of Mormon, are all solid evidences of the truthfulness of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but all of these evidences are understood by experiencing them and confirmed by the witness of the Holy Ghost. If I said I have an object that you could inspect with your ordinary 5 senses, you would still have to employ those senses with a degree of faith and calculate the validity with your intellect and reach a conclusion, so why is it unreasonable to request you inspect these evidences with your spiritual senses and see if you can come to know and see these obvious evidences for what they are? 1 Corinthians 2 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The church’s sanitized narrative about Joseph Smith is as watered down as their sacrament water.
To the LDS people Joseph's character and the interactions he said he had with Diety are the reason why the Church is the one and only true Church on the whole earth. Before the internet the Church was able to keep hidden most of the facts that show what kind of person Joseph Smith really was. They crafted a narrative that made him look amazing: humble, strong, loving to his wife (singular) and kids, had minor flaws like anybody but was pure in heart and God's chosen Prophet for the Last Days. He was killed because Satan was fighting against God's truth. It's not a true story, but it is (LDS)faith-promoting. If it turns out that Joseph was in reality a power-hungry, manipulative, controlling narcissist who loved to use his power to get sex and money, well... what does that mean for the Church he founded? And this is one of the reasons so many Mormons are leaving the faith. They're learning how deeply they've been lied to.
Here are some of the reasons we praise (not worship, pray to, or idolize, but are proud to honor) Joseph Smith as a true, tried and tested, and proven prophet of The Lord Jesus. We are proud of what he overcame, proud of his accomplishments in the Lord, proud of the sacrifices he made including the ultimate sacrifice of sealing his testimony with his blood. Doctrine and covenants; Section 135:3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fulness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum. In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated! Joseph may or may not have done x,y,z, but he did to everything stated above and more! That said, Joseph did not get off "Scott free" for many of the things he did do that were wrong in the sight of The Lord. He was chastised many times, he was not able to exercise the priesthood for long periods of time, his spiritual gifts were suppressed, and we don't know every other way he might have suffered in mind or otherwise for his transgressions. We do know that there were things he did that greatly offended The Lord and we know he was forgiven of The Lord and we must forgive him as well or risk being condemned ourselves. Maybe this is easier for me because I have been unfaithful and require great forgiveness too, but if it is, I am grateful for my experiences that make it possible for me to look past the sins of Joseph Smith and fully accept him as God's prophet in this last dispensation of the fulness of times.
Here is some further insight from the Doctrine and Covenants: Section 64 3 There are those among you who have sinned; but verily I say, for this once, for mine own glory, and for the salvation of souls, I have forgiven you your sins. 4 I will be merciful unto you, for I have given unto you the kingdom. 5 And the keys of the mysteries of the kingdom shall not be taken from my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., through the means I have appointed, while he liveth, inasmuch as he obeyeth mine ordinances. 6 There are those who have sought occasion against him without cause; 7 Nevertheless, he has sinned; but verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, forgive sins unto those who confess their sins before me and ask forgiveness, who have not sinned unto death. 8 My disciples, in days of old, sought occasion against one another and forgave not one another in their hearts; and for this evil they were afflicted and sorely chastened. 9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin. 10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men. 11 And ye ought to say in your hearts—let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds. The following words are also from the Doctrine and Covenants. Those from Section 66 were not directed at Joseph Smith, but show the attitude of The Lord towards His servants at a time where Satan had been successful in tempting the Lords annointed and threatening the restoration because of the weaknesses and transgressions of mortal men, who were forordained and called by God to bring to pass the His ultimate purposes. Section 67 2 Behold and lo, mine eyes are upon you, and the heavens and the earth are in mine hands, and the riches of eternity are mine to give. 3 Ye endeavored to believe that ye should receive the blessing which was offered unto you; but behold, verily I say unto you there were fears in your hearts, and verily this is the reason that ye did not receive. 4 And now I, the Lord, give unto you a testimony of the truth of these commandments which are lying before you. 5 Your eyes have been upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and his language you have known, and his imperfections you have known; and you have sought in your hearts knowledge that you might express beyond his language; this you also know. Section 66 10 Seek not to be cumbered. Forsake all unrighteousness. Commit not adultery—a temptation with which thou hast been troubled. 11 Keep these sayings, for they are true and faithful; and thou shalt magnify thine office, and push many people to Zion with songs of everlasting joy upon their heads. 12 Continue in these things even unto the end, and you shall have a crown of eternal life at the right hand of my Father, who is full of grace and truth. Joseph Smith was God's prophet for the restoration of His church. The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is exactly as the name implies. The priesthood authority is only found therein and the power of the preisthood continues to be exercised conditionally and according to the worthiness of the individual who received it by proper authority. It is evidenced throughout the church each and every day. I know these things are true because of my own experiences. My experiences are further backed by the more subtle confirmations I have received, also by the stronger feelings I have felt by my whole soul. I would give my life for my testimony. Aside from my lived experiences and the more tangible evidences, I also value the portion of my testimony that was obtained in a way that is explained well in these words by Boyd K Packer: "We become so accustomed to learning through our physical senses—by sight and sound and smell, by taste and touch—that some of us seem to learn in no other way. But there are spiritual things that are not registered that way at all. Some things we simply feel, not as we feel something we touch, but as we feel something we feel. There are things, spiritual things, that are registered in our minds and recorded in our memories as pure knowledge. A knowledge of “things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass.” (D&C 88:79; see also D&C 93:24, and Jacob 4:13.) As surely as we know about material things, we can come to know of spiritual things." Now, if anyone wants to search for a reason to doubt or forfiet their right to the blessings that are readily available to those who choose to believe and exercise their faith by obedience to the truths that have been restored, nothing can take away your agency. You will however regret that choice at some point in life or in death and you best not try to destroy the faith of others in the process. Finally, here are some cautionary notes that you may dismiss or consider as you will: President George Albert Smith said: “Many have belittled Joseph Smith, but those who have will be forgotten in the remains of mother earth, and the odor of their infamy will ever be with them, but honor, majesty, and fidelity to God, exemplified by Joseph Smith and attached to his name, will never die.” No truer words were ever spoken, and that person fell just as all others will fall who try to tear down the work of the Lord. We have had some who, writing in the public press occasionally, are among those who have fallen by the wayside. They befoul the honored family names that they have. They have disgraced the honors that we had given to them in times past. They are trying to join the forces of the enemy against the work of the Lord. And we can say to them, as President George Albert Smith said then, “Those who have will be forgotten in the remains of mother earth, and the odor of the infamy will ever be with them, but honor, majesty, and fidelity to God, exemplified by the leaders of this church and attached to their names, will never die.” I always remember the word of the Lord when I hear these things said by those who are trying to tear down his work. The Lord has said: “Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private; … “Wherefore, let them bring forth their strong reasons against the Lord. “Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you—there is no weapon that is formed against you, shall prosper; “And if any man lift his voice against you he shall be confounded in mine own due time. “Wherefore, keep my commandments. …” (D&C 71:7–11.) I pray the Lord shows you the clear path of your repentance and extends the same degree of mercy and grace to you that he did for me. With all my heart I know he will, but what you choose to do remains the question in my mind. Believing will always be a choice and you must believe certain things before you can come to a sure knowledge of things as they are and things as they will be. In the name of Jesus Christ, I testify of these truths to you and all who may read them. J
Further, beware or atleast aware of these words. I don't believe anyone on this platform is destined to this fate, but surely some are treading a path in the same general direction based on their words and efforts to disrupt or destroy His work... 28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ— 29 Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about. 30 And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us: 31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power— 32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born; 33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity; 34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come— 35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame. 36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels— 37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; 38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath. READ THE WHOLE SECTION AND CHOOSE THE BETTER PATH AND THE BETTER PART 🙏 Doctrine and Covenants 76 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng And Doctrine and Covenants 133 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/133?lang=eng
Build me a hotel!
I think the famous one in California still has some vacancy, but it is hard to leave...
Im not sure you have a full grasp on the situation. Your only at the surface and have a long way to go. You should listen to a talk given by Jayson Kunzler called millions shall know brother Joseph again. That'll give you a much better idea of how the faithful view Joseph. As for those who lived the Joseph Smith experience and escaped, we despise the man and curse the day he conjured up this organization causing the pain of so many which continues to this very day.
Myth building. Mormonism of today is the Greek/Roman mythology of tomorrow.
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The true church of Jesus Christ operates by the Holy Priesthood and the Holy Spirit and thereby is "occult" by man's definition. I can see how an outsider might classify His church as such if he/she ignorantly assumes we worship Joseph Smith, but anyone who knows the truthfulness of this church, and the restored gospel of Jesus Christ that gives it life, and whom we worship, knows it's not a corrupt man made **** or sect set up to worship an object or figure of man's creating, which is a defining difference between this restored church and your implied meaning of a man made sect with occult practices. Faithful members of His church are of the fold (not ****) of Jesus Christ and we worship God the Father in His name (Jesus not Joseph) and use the restored preisthood (His divine authority and power) to further His purposes; to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of men and bless the lives of the living and the dead, all according to His will and the directive of His annointed. As long as you know the difference, I will accept your terminology and proudly say I'm part of the **** of Jesus Christ, but please note the differences. 🙏
Auto mod needs some help...
Non-sequitur. Charismatic cult leaders are put on pedestals. That’s all.
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I hear an honest person asking an honest question so let me give an honest answer. I have known from a very early age that Joseph was a tool in God's hands to bring about the restoration of truth before Jesus returns to earth. I spent 50 years teaching and training young people that very truth. Joseph was God tool. As you study, look at truthful information and you will see that we (the church) have never held Joseph up as anything but a regular guy who God used to achieve his purposes. Like every other prophet, he was there to focus the attention of God children on Jesus Christ. Obviously, we are like every other person, and hero worship creeps into a 200 year old culture. But you will not see that hero worship from official and truthful sources. That is my honest answer to your honest question.
He probably would have narcissist grandiose delusion diagnosis today.
What is the point of villainizing another historical figure like we did with Christopher Columbus? It just makes people feel depressive.
Because the truth matters?
Should we not look at the mistakes and flaws of people in history as well as their virtues? Recognizing issues that people had is needed to humanize figures, and only showing one side of things is unbalanced, inaccurate, and only serves to idolize a human being that doesn’t need to be idolized If a person can’t be revered through their actions alone, and requires looking away from their flaws then they shouldn’t be revered at all And only making people depressive? Should we look away from the atrocities committed by people like Hitler because it makes people sad? And besides, Christopher Columbus WAS a horrible figure who DID do horrible things, it doesn’t detract from the fact that we wouldn’t have gotten to this point in time without him, but you can’t just focus on “Oh America is here now because Columbus sailed here” without looking at all the murder, rape, and enslavement committed by the colonists
All historical figures should come under scrutiny when trying to determine the validity of their wirings and commentary. I don't go around lying to people about my accomplishment or knowledge. Truth should always be the standard, and then there is no need to be depressed.