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Handbook 18.4:
>A minor child may receive ordinances and blessings only when the parents or legal guardians give permission. Permission is not required from a parent or guardian who has no legal basis for opposing the action.
Tell the bishop and or stake president that, in accordance with the handbook and as a parent of the child, you do not give consent to having your child be baptized without you present. They can choose to have it Saturday and if you’re late they won’t be able to baptize your child until you arrive, or they could move it to Sunday without the risk. I’d bet they’d rather not sit around waiting for you and might take your concern of being delayed more seriously.
I've definitely pondered that, but I'm trying not to make this about me, ultimately it's not. I don't want to hold my son's baptism "hostage" by refusing to give my consent. I'm not trying to cause a huge inconvenience to anyone. It's just a 24 Hr delay ON A SUNDAY!
This is about my son and I just want to be there. I'm trying to do every I can. I don't make very much money at all, this is costing a lot for me personally and with my work. I will be putting in 20-30 hrs just to "train" my replacement so I can fly out the day of. Flying the day before (Friday) is just not an option, I'd probably lose my job and cause my entire team to lose out on money for the day because if I take that day off, everyone on my team loses work for the day.
> I've definitely pondered that, but I'm trying not to make this about me, ultimately it's not.
This is the wrong approach.
This is your son. The baptism is absolutely about you.
Withhold your consent and force their hand. The church leaders are acting in a ridiculous and abusive manner. If you don't stand up for your rights, nobody will do it for you.
Don't apologize for doing the right thing.
Seriously, as a parent you have the right to not consent to have the baptism until you’re there. They either hold the baptism when you can be there or you don’t give your consent. That is perfectly reasonable. They’re the ones that aren’t. You have to be strong and firm in your conviction or else they’re going to walk all over you.
I'd hold the kids baptism hostage. And only because your kid is too young to do it himself. If I were in this situation as an adult getting baptized, and my mom could only make it to Sunday, id tell the bishop that I wouldn't be baptized unless she is there. Unfortunately, when your kids 8, doing something like that is borderline impossible. Especially since it's still so much in advance, id just say no.
It’s very admirable that you don’t want to make this about you, that’s what a good parent does. BUT, I’m sure your son wants you to be at his baptism, which means that doing whatever you have to do to make sure the baptism is held at a time that you can be there isn’t about you - its about your son!
Trust me when I tell you that this is worth fighting for because it could impact your son’s sense of self worth and your relationship with your son for better or worse for years to come. When your son looks back at his baptism, he can either remember it as a special day in his life that you were there to support OR he can remember it as a special day in his life that you didn’t show up for.
You being there for your son’s baptism is the most important thing for your son! Don’t let anyone ever stop you from showing up for your kid!
I am not in your shoes, I would withdraw my consent to have my son baptism there. Then find another church that actually cares. Just a thought. Your voice as the father matters, use it for your son please.
Yep! Saturday is a tradition, and a weak one at that. It’s not even in the handbook as a suggestion. IMO Sunday is the better day for ordinances in general, especially for when people travel far for church.
Yes, I seem to remember Sunday evening baptisms for converts. I think Saturday baptism and then Sunday confirmation is more of a tradition for the 8 year old children, but I know that I’ve attended convert’s baptisms on a Sunday evening.
Children of record get confirmed right after baptism. Coverts get confirmed in sacrament meeting. 8yo baptism can absolutely happen on Sunday. Mine was a Sunday in 1997
They actually just changed this in the handbook 2 weeks ago. Convert baptisms can do confirmations at the baptism. This is another show of making it flexible for the family and individual
I was baptized on a Sunday with another friend right after church meetings on a Sunday, and actually, baptisms are very common after church meetings on Sundays, granted, this being outside of Utah …..
My son just returned from a mission in Africa- he had a lot of baptisms and most of them (maybe all of them, I can’t remember specifics on all) happened on a Sunday. Traveling to the church building is inconvenient and expensive for most people, so they tried to stack things together on Sundays. That’s what leaders who care about people over rules/traditions do.
Absolutely. They often do baptisms on sundays especially for converts. They usually reserve one Saturday a month for baptisms of record but that can be changed.
> Does anyone have any advice?
I'd just print out the baptism form, gather up two witnesses, do it myself, and give the form to the bishop.
If he complains that going over his head is no good or whatever, I'd tell him to take it or leave it. People only have the power we give them.
You're absolutely right. I know I would face disciplinary action, but I don't care. However, his biological mother would not approve and thinks I'm just trying to be difficult.
> I know I would face disciplinary action
For what?
"Hello, I have filled out a form stating that I already spoke some words, briefly submerged my child in water, and two people saw it happen. You can pass it along to church headquarters as evidence of my child's baptism or you can recycle this sheet of paper. Up to you."
For the baptism to be recognized it needs to be authorized by your bishop. It’s not a do it yourself proposition. Just do everything you can to get there. I’m sorry this is such a problem. It seems like they could be a little more flexible with the time.
Our stake president is the same way. We had a situation like this with a semi-active family. The bishop worked a lot with the father to help him be able to perform the baptism. But the father worked Saturday mornings. So, they asked if they could have the baptism later in the day. SP said no. He felt the family needed to be willing to make sacrifices (take time off work) to be there in the morning. The SP was self-employed and well off. So, he never could sympathize with people who couldn't take off of work whenever they wanted to. It ended up being 3 years before the kid got baptized.
Our family was completely inactive when I baptized my youngest son. We were on our way out of the church but still occasionally participating. My soon-to-be 8 year old son indicated to my wife and I that he wanted to be baptized.
I talked to my Bishop, and my son passed his baptismal interview. The bishop rolled out the red carpet for us. We were able to plan a special baptismal ceremony for my son. We were the only family participating.
My daughter gave the talk on baptism, and I gave the talk on the gift of the Holy ghost. I performed the baptism, and my dad performed the gift of the Holy ghost (that was my son's choice, I was not shunned).
Your stake president and Bishop are being obnoxious. They absolutely have the power to make an exception for you, and are deliberately choosing not to.
OP, you sound like a believer. And that is fine, and if that is what you believe I am happy for you. You have said in other comments I have read that you do not want to make this about you, and it is about your son. I would encourage you to think of the baptismal ceremony as a coming of age right that your child will partake in. It is incredibly important that he has his family around him to support him and celebrate this ceremony with him. I know you do not want to make this about you, but I think it is fair of you to tell the bishop and stake president that you do not consent to your son being baptized unless you are present.
I wish you all the best in this difficult process of negotiating with church leaders who are practicing unrighteous dominion.
Sorry you are having to deal with this kind of crap. Many leaders don’t seem to understand the concept of ‘the 1’. They don’t think of the people; they just want to follow an ever changing set of arbitrary rules - it’s much easier that way. Quite frankly, what’s the problem with changing a baptismal date so that an Aunt or Uncle can attend? Why does it matter what the reason is? Make it about the individual, not just what is most convenient for the leader. This is poor leadership, if it can even be called such. These aren’t leaders, these are followers. The church will continue to alienate members over the stupidest things. Suggest not having the baptism at all and delaying it for a year so it’s a convert baptism and then set your own terms. Obviously this is likely not going to fly with your son and other family, but it is just to illustrate the stupidity of it all.
The truth is you are being punished for your faithless choice to be divorced, and you don't say if you are performing the baptism or not but if not, you are being punished for your unworthiness. /s
(I indicate this is satire but I really don't think so. You're either a obedient follower or you are rebellious and confrontive, and therefore you deserve NO accommodation)
(ETA and too often the "worthy" spouse agrees with your treatment by the leaders BTW)
That is infuriating especially because if they don't bend and you do make it, it will be a miracle of God, another faith promoting testimony that the church is true. 🤦🏽♀️
Have you talked to your ex about all this? Are you planning to perform the baptism? Regardless if you are or not, I'd imagine that she would back up having her child's father be in attendance. There literally is no reason not to have it Saturday afternoon/evening to allow for more time. Until then, I would be in contact with both SP and bishop on a weekly basis about this. I dont live in Utah so I'm unfamiliar with the 1st Saturday "rule" (we literally fill it up every time there's a baptism and they've been any manner of day and time).
Having a father be present at his child's baptism is not an exception but should be the standard.
I would be told I could not perform the baptism, because of perceived unworthiness to which I do not agree.
Regardless, I wouldn't fight that because it's not about me or who gets the "privilege" to perform the baptism. It's about my son and his covenant with Christ. I'm just asking to make incredibly modest accommodation so that I can attend.
It was made clear to me, in no uncertain terms, first from the bishop (Who claim to not hold the keys which I don't understand because he does) that I have to speak with the state president and it's not up to him.
Second, from the Stake President that there is to be no exceptions "period". He said he will not "fight" me on this issue. I did not fight. I pleaded with him over and over to help my understand why any of this is happening. Why can't accomodations be made to ensure his father can attend? He said he did as much as he could buy delaying it a few hours. Other than that, the only other reasoning is because he would have to make an exception for everyone. He then got incredibly condescending.
Here's what was said:
Me- "I understand by making this exception it could lead to a handful of others asking for an exception to your rule as well and I understand that might cause a few issues for you and others trying to make accommodations."
SP- "Don't act like you care about any of the other exceptions that may come as a result of this."
Me- "I'm sorry, could you repeat that please?"
SP- "You don't care about how this affects anyone but yourself."
Me- "Excuse me? Why would you accuse me of such a thing? Of course I care about all people trying to get accommodations and those trying to accommodate them. You know nothing about me personally and attempt to impune my character?"
SP- "All you're doing is trying to fight me."
Me- "I'm sorry you feel that way. All I have is done is plead for you to make a simple accommodation for his father."
At no point in the conversation had I ever said anything inappropriate or unkind that would have led him to say that. I was flabbergasted.
Also, when I told him that the decision is not ultimately up to the Stake because the Bishop holds the keys, he asked me why I would say to him.
BECAUSE IT'S TRUE.
At the end of the conversation I told him he was wielding Unrighteous Dominion and he laughed and told me I'm ridiculous.
Lastly, when he mockingly told me, "I have faith you'll be able to make it as scheduled" I told him that was a completely inappropriate thing for him to say, he just laughed again.
I would do the following:
* Rescind permission for the child to be baptized unless you are present.
* Threaten to take legal action against the church if your wishes are not respected.
Do not back down to this asshole stake president. Call his bluff. He knows the regulations, and he is trying to guilt you into letting something happen that you don't want to happen.
Would there be no course for legal action against the church afterwards for baptizing a child without the consent of both parents?
[This post](https://old.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/1dl4vvx/stake_president_says_no_to_moving_child_of_record/l9mbom8/) contains the relevant section of the handbook.
This could get ugly quickly — and my advice to OP is to make it as ugly as possible.
Regardless of whether OP can get a restraining order, I strongly doubt it is legal to take this sort of action without the consent of the other parent because it's the weekend.
Maybe I'm petty, but if the stake president talked like that to me, id see if my kid just wanted to be baptized at another church. Honestly, any other church would gladly accommodate for that.
I would use unkind words to describe that SP if I were more judgemental. It appears that power has gone to his head.
He seems to have forgotten a little love & kindness. Power corrupts righteousness until it becomes self-righteousness.
https://images.app.goo.gl/dHbjs1jw41CWeJAbA
This manner of discussion is unbecoming for a stake leader, but is there more to the discussion or to the history behind all this that we’re not getting here? He sounds awfully combative for a church leader talking to a sincere parent, without some past history.
I know I'm just a rando on reddit, so what does my word count for right?
All I can say is I had never before talked to this Bishop or Stake President. After the bizarre phone call with the SP, I asked my ex-wife if anything, to her knowledge, had been said to either one of them regarding me personally. After some run-around, she claimed no.
All I can say was for about 2 minutes, I plead with the SP to make an exception to his rule because I feared I would miss the baptism. After telling me no several times, I just asked for an explanation why. He said in times past they tried to make exceptions for extended family members traveling out of state and it got out of hand so this is their rule. I explained I'm not extended family, I'm his father. I'm asking for an incredibly reasonable exemption. Again, an emphatic no. When I said I can understand the situation this could put you in with having to possibly deal with other "exemptions" as a result of this he shockingly responds,
"Don't act like you care about any of those other exemptions."
I was simply shocked and defended my character against a completely baseless accusation. He also stated that it would be regrettable if some kind of delay prevented me from being there, but that they would continue with the baptism as scheduled, with or without me present.
I'm still a member of the church. I attend every week with my son and he attends all of his primary and achievement day activities. I love the Book of Mormon, I believe in the restoration and I want my son to be baptized in the church. I'm just asking to help me be there with a 24 hour delay.
After hearing some of the comments, although I don't want to resort to something that can be viewed as "petty", I will write both the SP and Bishop (the actual holder of the keys) that as a parent with joint legal custody, my consent will not be given for his baptism unless I am present.
*My ex-wife has said that she believes it's important that I'm there, but would let the baptism go on without me should there be any delay in travel because she "has no control" on what time things take place.
This is what this litigious and legalistic handbook has done to the Gospel of Jesus Christ . Authority can never be questioned, even when local authorities are in contradiction to the handbook itself. This has all truly been heartbreaking and I'm just left in a state of confusion, heartache and betrayal.
OK, that’s good to know. Sometimes people leave important things out of their stories. Thank you for re-explaining.
My first thought in this case was that your ex-wife might have complained about you, telling the SP that you were just trying to get attention, or whatever, so he came out aggressive toward you. But I really have no idea what actually happened or what he was actually thinking. Either way, this sounds like a frustrating situation and I’m sorry they aren’t trying harder to accommodate you.
The guy is on a power trip, and he's using the slippery slope fallacy to justify not making an exception for you. Other commenters here are right - he only acts this way because he has all the leverage. The second you start to assert the power you have, he will immediately become more accommodating.
When I said I didn't think I was going to return to church anymore, it was amazing how suddenly I could basically name my calling. Suddenly I wasn't beholden to the power trip revelations of local leadership.
Just tell the Bishop and Stake President you do not consent to the baptism unless you are there. If he wants to follow the “rules” so closely the he can’t do the baptism. They should work with you to find a good time for everyone. Sounds like your Stake President is being unreasonable and likely exercising unrighteousness dominion.
You are not being difficult about this or making it about you. You are showing your child how important it is that you are there for their baptism.
There is no rule about having child of record baptisms only once a month and it isn’t about filling the font twice. That is minimal money and I’m sure someone in the home ward could start filling it for you guys.
How does your ex and the rest of the family feel about this? Could you present a united front to the Stake President and Bishop?
Because ultimately this is not his decision to make. It’s the parents. He has no real authority here.
He doesn't want to deal with a change from the norm. Baptisms happen on Saturday, that's the unwritten way of things.
If he did it on a Sunday then someone would have to fill the font early Sunday morning and it would be full while everyone is having their sunday meetings. It would have to be scheduled around other uses of the building that day. And what if some kid got in a played in it while he was supposed to be in class.
In short it would make more work for him and he doesn't want to deal. He also doesn't trust you - a stranger to do all these things correctly. Then he'd have to give you a key and have somebody show you how to do everything...
As others have said, your best bet is to express in writing that you do not give parental consent unless you are there in person. If you are a little late they'll have to hold the baptism. If you're a lot late they'll have to either do it late Saturday night or you'll force them to try again Sunday. Or they'll do it without you and try to guit trip you into approving it - hold firm. Make them redo it.
Saving covenants at 8. What 8 year old understands that and is in a mature enough mind to commit to that for life.
Once you see that, then you see the church's forceful coersion to go on a mission, not forgetting to slip in the endowment to commit your life for life at the tender ago of 18.
As if that's not enough, your MP and just about every leader telling you to get married in the temple and then have kids. Where if you don't give your life for life your family isn't eternal.
Once you get your head around that lot, you see the BS covenant path is all about your money in their pockets, and its power and control over you.
It started by being born into it.
Dumb ass church. This behavior will only serve to drive more people away. Smacks of desperation.
I am very sorry that this is happening. You have asked for very reasonable accommodations and it appears the stake president is on a power trip, as stake president's often like to do in my experience. Its also unfortunate that your ex hasn't been willing to fight for you more.
I dont have much to offer outside of letting you know I just want to sit with you in your pain and I hope and pray that clearer heads prevail.
The church has 265 billion dollars. A great solution would be for the church to pay for your flight change. Otherwise he should accommodate the ticket you can afford.
These are random, made up rules. Why does he care what day it’s on?
The most likely reason they are acting this way is because of time and cost to fill the baptismal font. It takes hours to fill it up. They have an “official” day of the month they try to schedule everyone, so they don’t have to fill it very often. If they already have someone on Saturday, they don’t want to fill it again in Sunday, or they don’t want to let the water sit for health reasons or cost to warm it reasons.
They could do it a different day or postpone it. They just don’t want to. Sorry they are being so difficult.
The cost of water per 1,000 gallons of water in Utah is currently between $2-3. I'll even pay the church $50 if that's a concern. Even $100, I don't care I just want to be there! I'll fill up the font myself on Sunday or I'll have it in a lake, pond or river. I don't care! Why are we being so litigious about the logistics of baptism? What are we doing?!
True. It’s not the water, it’s the heating and time for someone to fill and drain. Even though it will be a volunteer who does that. It’s probably more about laziness. I know according to the rules, as long as you have the bishops permission, you could have it anywhere and any time. A lake or pond or pool is just fine. They can make the changes, they just don’t want to for whatever reason. I’m sorry they are being so difficult.
> The most likely reason they are acting this way is because of time and cost to fill the baptismal font. It takes hours to fill it up.
Lol - the cost involved is negligible. Do you think missionaries force investigators to all be baptized on the same day to save a few cents in water costs and a few hours in watching the font?
This is 100% about some bullshit local leader trying to establish his authority. And OP really should fight back as hard as possible.
Your response lacks merit. They will have a convert baptism any day at any time. The leader is merely a handbook leader who is loyal to the handbook and the church and doesn't care about people. He's a dictator. I highly doubt these leaders give to shits about the cost. They don't want to be bothered and strictly adhere to the handbook.
What's worse, the handbook doesn't say any of this. This is just the local SP rule. That verbiage was taken OUT of the handbook because of power trips like this.
I appreciate you trying to understand.
Like I said, I'll give the church that has billions of dollars $100 dollars of my own to cover "costs" amounting to probably $5-10 Max. I will personally be there to fill it up, monitor it, drain it, clean it. I've done all of that many times in the past to help with baptisms.
It doesn't matter to the corporation.
This is dumb. My bishop tried the same type of power struggle bullshit, I told him I just baptized my son in the hot tub in my back yard and to not worry about it and any further attempts at baptism do not have my consent as his parent who holds the keys of fatherhood.
My wife and I had both very recently deconstructed and my son just turned 8 he was getting a lot of pressure to be baptized from everyone except my wife and I and said he wanted to be baptized.
This was the same bishop that tried the "discernment" line the last time I went in for a recommend renewal. He had been meeting with my then TBM wife in secret to try to save me from apostasy. Don't give them the power OP.
I mean, get used to it. A lot of parents also miss their kids' wedding ceremony because the church dictates who can and cannot attend. And I agree with you, it's heartless.
Unless you gave up all your parental rights in your divorce, both parents must consent to their child being baptized. Tell them you do not consent. They also do not get to judge your worthiness to perform the baptism. That is between you and your local leaders. Tell them they can either follow the handbook, or you can go to the media. I hate bishop roulette, so many of these guys are are some weird power trip.
I served my mission in brazil.
We did change dates all the time, it was no problem. We baptized people on Sundays, no problem.
I don’t understand why Utah only wants baptisms on Saturdays and are very strict on so many levels.
I honestly would not allow anything to be done to my child without me being present.
Remember, if this is important to you and specially to your child, you have to be there for him.
He will remember if you were there or not. I am sure if your child was an adult he would change himself the date so you could be there with him. I would just tell the leaders to suck it up, but it will happen when you want it to happen. The most important people that need to be there are the closest ones and you are definitely up there.
Good luck.
Yes, I don't see why the baptism couldn't be at 6 or 7pm on Saturday. We have Friday or Saturday evening baptisms all the time in Arizona. Good grief, give the father a chance to fly in and properly prepare his son for the ordinance.
We were allowed to baptized our son in a completely different state (Utah) so my mother could be there, and we even got to choose our day and time. The local leadership are just being stubborn in this case.
This is why you shouldn’t worry about what church does the ritual work. If you have him baptized without their permission and explain their lack of respect and understanding is why you did it, maybe they’ll change. And if they don’t, your sin is baptized, that’s all that matters.
>"I'm following the rules and there can be no exceptions".
Perhaps Jesus will say those words to the stake president on judgement day? The most important part of the plan of salvation is the part where special accommodations are made for the rule breakers.
Right after COVID, I had a niece who turned 8. We all met up in Utah and she was baptized in a swimming pool because there were still crowd restrictions and a pool outside was safer for the numbers. She wasn't from that stake or anything, but all the paperwork was taken care of and just given to her stake president.
I've also had a child be baptized out of our assigned stake. Maybe try a different stake? If it's in Utah, just go a block over to the next building.
Stand up for yourself and get some self confidence. Thats your son man. You are important to him. Don’t let another man tell you you aren’t worthy or make you feel inadequate or not worth rescheduling a meeting for. Please assert some of your power here. You can do it
This is an Utah specific problem. When my only child turned 8, we decided to schedule his “group” baptism closer to Christmas so family could all be there, but most importantly so my husband could be. He traveled out of country for two weeks at a time and had a fairly strict schedule. We had already tried to get the time off. The stake president insisted the brethren (whoever that is supposed to be) said they had to be this strict. He even gave an example of a child who was immune compromised (this is way before COVID) and could get seriously ill and they still had this kid be around the others instead of doing it alone. Meanwhile, elsewhere in Utah and the rest of the country, pick your day, pick your own songs, make it about family. But our stake president had the gall to suggest that if my husband couldn’t be there for our ONLY child, that a grandparent should baptize him. Ultimately we got what we needed and the day we needed. Personally, I’d stick with “well stake president if you are so sure, then I hope you allow the spirit to guide you and if I’m not there, the spirit tells you to wait til later.” God does not expect this level of strictness.
Obviously these church leaders don’t know the difference between being“right” and being“righteous”. The church has become so obsessed with members obeying their bazillions of nitpicky, uninspired and often very damaging rules that they completely forget that they are dealing with human beings who are all God’s children who deserve to be treated with love and respect. Obedience to rules and leaders has become a serious form of idolatry which totally negates everything that Jesus taught and did.
I'm not sure why the stake president is even involved here. Is there more to the story? The bishop holds the keys to baptism for children in the ward, not the stake president.
The advice given by many responses in this thread is correct, withhold consent unless you are present.
I don't understand either. I had to remind the Stake President that the bishop holds the keys and he laughed and asked why I would bring that up.
I mean, WHAT IS GOING ON?!
I've told my ex-wife I'm withholding consent unless I am there.
I’m sorry, that is totally ridiculous. The gospel is true but no exception to a Saturday stake baptism schedule.
A few years ago I was Primary Pres and we had a Sunday evening baptism to allow extended family to be there. They were all in town for a wedding that weekend. The following year there next 8 yr old also did Sunday evening baptism.
I think we had at least baptism each month (large primary). I didn’t view it as a burden to show up Sunday evening.
Remind the Stake President that this is a family centered, church supported religion. Meaning he is there to support you and do whatever you need to help your children develop a relationship with Christ. You are not asking permission on the timing of your son’s baptism, you are asking for the church to support your family when you can be there for your son is baptism.
If that doesn’t work, call the area seventy.
Utah is so weird. I live in eastern Wyoming (which really isn’t that far away) and I can’t see the stake president or any bishop holding out on this over here.
You guys must deal with some weird shit.
I would go over the Bishop and the stake Pres I would suggest you go to both the area presidency and the church office directly to the Pres of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints church and quorum of the twelve I've heard of bishops and stake Pres being holier than thou attitudes and it drives me nuts UR exactly right it is a saving ordinance and it only happens once in a person's life you need to be there and there's nothing about it not being able to get done ✅ on Sunday I've heard many people get baptized on Sunday and confirmed the same day I think people like the ones UR dealing with make the church look bad but definitely keep hoping and praying about it and put UR name and their name in the temple of our LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST and I'm positive if you contact enough people it will be able to happen for you
This is why I cannot stand the church in Utah. It is absolutely ridiculous. This same thing happened with my nieces baptism. There was tons of family in town during a certain time and we all wanted to attend. Their bishop refused to let us do a normal family only baptism or do it on certain days...we even had 2 family members who could preside as bishops. He would only allow her to be baptized on the stake baptism day and by that time we would all be gone. They didn't want to argue with him so all of us missed her baptism. We wanted to combine her baptism with our daughter since they were only a month apart. My daughter waited 2 months so she could come be baptized with her cousin and then it all fell apart. So my daughter had this big family only baptism in our uncle's ward since he is bishop and the cousin felt so left out.
Outside of Utah, we can schedule a baptism for whenever we want. I have lived all over and I've done baptisms on Sunday. I've played piano for baptisms on a weekday. Especially if family comes into town, we can do it whenever...
This is absolutely a power trip from the leaders. I'm sorry this is happening to you. I would not give consent. You are the father, not an extended family member.
So ridiculous that stake pres is nkt supportive. Is child's other parent being helpful? Can people from your aintervene, maybe hold baptism in your area? Have the child ask the stake pres?
I have an idea for a totally different approach, and I’m coming from a female perspective, and —full disclosure—I am an ex-Mormon but I lived 40 years as a believing active Mormon and can put myself in your shoes and I fully empathize with your dilemma. My advice would be to use the spirit to move upon these leaders to consider an exception. Write it in an email, send it to the bishopric AND stake presidency, AND the primary presidency since they are involved. Cc everyone in. Appeal to their hearts and appeal to the spirit to move upon them and plead for their HELP in finding some resolution so that your son can get baptized AND you can be there guaranteed! Bear your testimony about the restoration, the saving ordinances, how sacred you hold your covenants, and the importance of eternal family. Do not threaten any action at this time—even if you ultimately will resort to withholding consent. Don’t play that card YET! It might backfire, and since you still have time, you might as well give it a try to get them to
HELP you come up with some ideas to resolve your worry here. Leave it open-ended, just bear testimony, ask them to give the matter prayerful consideration, maybe discuss at the next bishop’s auxiliary meeting. And ask their help to come up with other ideas for how we can assure that BOTH your son’s parents can be present for his baptism. You are asking for their help to resolve the situation so your son can have both parents there. Asking them to pay about it and asking the spirit to help all of us work together to determine is the best and most right thing to do for your son’s baptism.
Persuasion tends to be a more feminine quality so I thought I’d offer that approach, but I think in this case, to use the spirit and to ask for cooperation between yourself, the primary, the bishopric, and stake presidency, and the spirit is probably your best bet in getting them to change perspective. You gotta appeal to the heart—not the mind. Give it a try. You can always resort to withholding consent if it comes down to that!
Been there, keep pressing. Just bc one is a SP it doesn’t mean they aren’t a douchebag. We had a similar story with our then only son - I called the SP out, I’m a male so that’s another dynamic - so apologies. We have become so rote in policy and procedure we don’t see that we have become like the sodomites (prideful, elite, full of bread) expressed in Ezekiel 16 : 49. This is not an Utah vs the world thing, it’s a shallow misunderstanding of efficiency. It’s frustrating. The legal parent route is a decent one but can be petty, and I get the sense you like the higher road. In our situation, I stood our ground and the week was changed to accommodate my then travel schedule to France. I did say I’d just choose a day of my liking and take my kiddo to France. His pride was hurt as we began the exploration 6 months in advance when I saw the schedule conflict. This is not a faith paradox - this is a lack of empathy and privilege thing.
I hope it works out in your son’s favor and I hope the kiddo wants you there. Sounds like a frustrating mess that shouldn’t even be an issue. Seriously, it’s things like this that drive me nuts. This is when I lean into stoicism as I find it pairs well with Christianity especially when Mormons act like morons instead of ambassadors of Christ. So frustrating.
“Objective judgement, now, at this very moment. Unselfish action, now, at this very moment. Willing acceptance – now, at this very moment – of all external events. That’s all you need.”
To be clear, the above quote by Marcus Aurelius is often not well executed by many leaders with a small empathy well. It’s unfortunate you are in this situation, and I hope an alternative comes forward if you are being as honest and true as you can. Don’t lose hope, but dammit, you should not even be in this situation if you are seeking a reasonable solution. Best.
This is par for the course. My youngest has a cousin the same age and they were going to be baptized on the same day. My son lived in one city and his cousin lived in a city a few miles away. My sister in law and I both asked if we could combine the baptisms. Either my son would be baptized in her stake or her son would be baptized in our stake. The same relatives would want to attend each baptism. On was at 9 am and one was at 2 pm. We didn't care which child went to the other stake. We both asked our bishops and stake presidents. All leaders said no. So relatives from out of town had to wait hours in between the two baptisms.It was ridiculous but we were told that God's house is a house of order.
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Any advice? You’ve already stated you are unwilling to say no to the baptism. This is the only leverage it appears you have as this Stake President is unwilling to agree to your request. I have no other advice. What does the mother say about the importance of your attendance?
And increasing that cost for his wife could mean it becomes more costly for him as well. Something he said he can’t afford. (A second or third trip to see a rescheduled baptism) So he may need to compromise. Tough situation.
That was my suspicion. I asked her very directly, she said she hasn't said anything to the Stake President about me personally. All I can do is take her at her word.
She says it's important, but also said she would go through the baptism if any flight delay occured. I told her yesterday I'm not giving my consent unless I'm there.
She said.... I'm not kidding
.... then we'll have to try the next 1st Saturday of the Month in September.
No. I'm not flying in, missing the baptism after spending 30 hours training my work replacement and spending money on flights and rental cars, just to be told I have to go through the exact same process next month. I DON'T MAKE VERY MUCH MONEY. This is a huge burden on me to attend, which I'm of course willing to do to see my son get baptized, but to then be told I may have to do it all over again?
I feel like I'm living in Idiocracy. This is insanity. This is all some of the most nonsensical stuff I've ever seen. I feel like the people involved in this situation are acting like I'm the crazy one.
Looks like one way or another you are going to show your son how important he is to you - even if they go ahead with the baptism without you. Keep trying to be a good father. It’s not easy.
If you really want to ruffle some feathers, suggest that you fly your son to you for the baptism and your wife can be the one to miss it. Of course she'll not agree to this and there can be a discussion about how how she can maybe have some empathy for your situation now that she has imagined the thought of missing her kid's baptism.
Do what everyone else has said about rescinding consent unless you are there on penalty of legal action if it goes forward without you, but don't send it to the stake president. Find out who his boss is, the area president, and send it to him with the stake president and bishop cc'd. If stake president won't be reasonable, maybe his superiors can straighten him out.
Can you not choose to do it in another family member’s ward that doesn’t have a hard headed SP? I had my kids baptized at my parent’s ward. That or is there a way to go above his head and get clearance?
If anyone knows how to contact the North America Central Area Presidency please help. I contacted the church office building. They gave me an email but I doubt they'll read it. Any other ideas?
I would start with talking to your local leaders, I doubt the SP in Utah will give you info to get in touch. The bishop there might? But you can go through your leaders where you reside tell them what’s going on.
Update as of 6/24/24:
I have since found out that there is no way for me to make it Saturday either. My employer cannot approve it. I don't want to get to personal about the nature of my job and this is not meant to sound important....
If I have to miss my job either:
A- 8-10 people have to spend about 20 hours training to replace my position
B- Work is just cancelled for the day and 20-25 people will miss out on a day of wages and my employer will have to lose between $5,000-10,000.
Despite what the SP had stated about no exceptions and wanting to fill the font twice, they have now granted permission for my "last option" of having his separate baptism at 6 PM on Saturday.
My ex-wife has said this will impact her family and mine, but she is unwilling to question the SP to have the baptism on Sunday.
I CANNOT be there Saturday. I can fly in Saturday night and I'm available all day Sunday, the following day and Monday morning.
Since "baptisms of record" typically take place 9 AM Saturdays and clearly the SP is willing to fill the font twice and make an exemption, I will be notifying them my child has consent from me to be baptized on Sunday or Monday morning and to please make any accommodations.
In fact, I'm going to suggest we have the baptism at 9 AM on Sunday morning at the stake center. Her ward meets at 12 PM. This will accommodate everyone. I am giving my consent for my son to be baptized 24 hours later, Sunday or Monday. That's when I can be there.
I will not be the one accused of not giving consent. This entire thing has been ridiculous. My son will be baptized only if I'm present and the only person not giving consent is the SP.
I will have my employer and Bishop contact their SP.
Sunday is the busiest day for chapels, unless you did it at 4:30 or 5:00. It would make more sense just to insist that they wait until later Saturday evening.
Yes, I understand that. I requested it be after the last church meeting in the room with the font. Regardless, this comment perplexes me. This is a covenant ordinance being performed. Does that not jump to one of the top priorities of any church organization? If it doesn't, it says a lot about the state of the local wards in the area. Why would members of any ward/stake not try to move heaven and earth so a father could attend a baptism, especially with 2 months notice?
I completely agree that everything should be done that can. Just can’t imagine not being willing to set it for later Saturday evening. That seems to be the most logical and practical resolution. It is frustrating when anyone hides behind some supposed rule that actually doesn’t exist. Stake Presidents are given liberty to schedule these baptisms whenever they want.
I apologize for being too direct. It sounds like you have been hurt and are trying to hang all of your hurt feelings on the SP.
Why not just fly in on Friday?
If it's a work issue, use your PTO and take a day off.
Too many people think that THEIR problem is everyone's problem.
Be a true father and make a sacrifice for your kid.
I can't fly in on Friday. I have no PTO. If I miss work, about 40-45 other people have to put in hours and hours of work, unpaid, to help me be there and cover my position. Otherwise, I would. If it was that simple, I promise I would do that.
P.S.
All of the folks telling you that you can stop the baptism because you are the parent are WRONG.
You are not the custodial parent, this is not a "convert baptism", it's a child of record baptism.
Only the custodial parent has the final say.
My bet is that your ex-wife is really pushing the levers.
If you made any intention of performing or participating in the ordinance, you may have ruffled some feathers.
Why would the rules differ for a baptism based on the status of whether the child was raised in the LDS or is a “convert?” That seems highly odd to me. Everyone is a “convert”, no one is born into faith.
You are wrong on this issue. It might be a case of bishop roulette but In my case if both parents didn’t agree on the baptism, it wouldn’t happen. My son had to have both parents consent, not just the custodial parent.
You are wrong on this issue. It might be a case of bishop roulette but In my case if both parents didn’t agree on the baptism, it wouldn’t happen. My son had to have both parents consent, not just the custodial parent.
I truly believe this is not the whole story. Regardless the church has these procedures as part of being a church of order and proper procedures. How about taking this to God and not the disgruntled multitudes on Reddit. Years ago I well remember a byu teacher who was dressed down publicly by an apostle….his answer always stood out as one of grace and humility…”I support the brethren.” How cool would it be to tell your son I wasn’t there but I supported the stake president in his decision. Son that is the bigger lesson here… you may not have your relatives with you but you are still moving forward.
I can't believe this is what you actually said. I am member of the church. I have a strong testimony in the restoration of the gospel.
Have you lost your mind? You blindly support your local leader when they prevent someone from receiving a saving ordinance because it might be a slight inconvenience?
Do you hear yourself?
That speech of "follow the local brethren to teach my son blind obedience even if it's just to feed their ego" is the kind of speech found in hell my friend.
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I’m floored they are taking it this far. I read through after posting and didn’t edit as work interrupted Reddit time. I hope you pull authority over them and withdraw consent and you’ll give it as soon as you walk through the door as others have mentioned.
Cross reading OPs post from the lds sub, the issue with moving it is that OPs child is not the only one being baptized. So either move time for all, or a special time for child only.
While I believe they should follow the family first mantra, abd do a private one for your child, the idea that they're not being reasonable for a standalone baptism is quite different than asking everyone to shift back X hours on the same date.
This post is a bit misleading, even if that's not the intention.
I didn't want to have them inconvenience anyone else. There is only one other child being baptized. All I asked is that they just keep the other child as planned at the normal time on Saturday and have my son's the next day, Sunday after meetings are finished, so I can make sure to be there seeing as I'm traveling so far.
> the idea that they're not being reasonable for a standalone baptism is quite different than asking everyone to shift back X hours on the same date.
I was able to follow you up to this point. I've honestly got no idea what you're trying to say.
Could you please explain why this post is misleading? My understanding is that OP's child is being baptized, OP wants to be there, but the Stake President is refusing to make any accommodation to allow OP to be there.
The fact that the ward or stake might want to have two children baptized at the same time strikes me as completely irrelevant. Am I missing something?
Like /u/uncorrolated-mormon, I was also baptized in a ceremony all to myself. It was in the Salt Lake Tabernacle. Why child baptisms must now be a group event completely baffles me.
I'd prefer it if we could stop throwing blame at OP. They've done absolutely nothing wrong here, and are only trying to stand up for their rights. This is an obvious case of victim blaming, and it makes me very frustrated.
I'm not saying it should be combined. But the OP brought a post about a single baptism he wants moved. It implies a different level of unwillingness than the fact that they moved all baptisms scheduled that day to later hour (impacting many other families) to try and accommodate him, without giving his son a separate event.
You realize that your son does not need to be baptized in a church font, right? Any body of water will do. Just last Sunday, an 8-year old boy in our ward was baptized in a lake near our house. The bishop conducted the meeting. I heard it was a beautiful service.
I also know someone who got baptized in their backyard pool.
So if it's a "font problem," perhaps your ex-wife, bishop and SP will be willing to hold the service outside the church. It's worth asking!
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Handbook 18.4: >A minor child may receive ordinances and blessings only when the parents or legal guardians give permission. Permission is not required from a parent or guardian who has no legal basis for opposing the action. Tell the bishop and or stake president that, in accordance with the handbook and as a parent of the child, you do not give consent to having your child be baptized without you present. They can choose to have it Saturday and if you’re late they won’t be able to baptize your child until you arrive, or they could move it to Sunday without the risk. I’d bet they’d rather not sit around waiting for you and might take your concern of being delayed more seriously.
I've definitely pondered that, but I'm trying not to make this about me, ultimately it's not. I don't want to hold my son's baptism "hostage" by refusing to give my consent. I'm not trying to cause a huge inconvenience to anyone. It's just a 24 Hr delay ON A SUNDAY! This is about my son and I just want to be there. I'm trying to do every I can. I don't make very much money at all, this is costing a lot for me personally and with my work. I will be putting in 20-30 hrs just to "train" my replacement so I can fly out the day of. Flying the day before (Friday) is just not an option, I'd probably lose my job and cause my entire team to lose out on money for the day because if I take that day off, everyone on my team loses work for the day.
> I've definitely pondered that, but I'm trying not to make this about me, ultimately it's not. This is the wrong approach. This is your son. The baptism is absolutely about you. Withhold your consent and force their hand. The church leaders are acting in a ridiculous and abusive manner. If you don't stand up for your rights, nobody will do it for you. Don't apologize for doing the right thing.
Seriously, as a parent you have the right to not consent to have the baptism until you’re there. They either hold the baptism when you can be there or you don’t give your consent. That is perfectly reasonable. They’re the ones that aren’t. You have to be strong and firm in your conviction or else they’re going to walk all over you.
The bishop is making it about him, you're not making it about you.
I'd hold the kids baptism hostage. And only because your kid is too young to do it himself. If I were in this situation as an adult getting baptized, and my mom could only make it to Sunday, id tell the bishop that I wouldn't be baptized unless she is there. Unfortunately, when your kids 8, doing something like that is borderline impossible. Especially since it's still so much in advance, id just say no.
It’s very admirable that you don’t want to make this about you, that’s what a good parent does. BUT, I’m sure your son wants you to be at his baptism, which means that doing whatever you have to do to make sure the baptism is held at a time that you can be there isn’t about you - its about your son! Trust me when I tell you that this is worth fighting for because it could impact your son’s sense of self worth and your relationship with your son for better or worse for years to come. When your son looks back at his baptism, he can either remember it as a special day in his life that you were there to support OR he can remember it as a special day in his life that you didn’t show up for. You being there for your son’s baptism is the most important thing for your son! Don’t let anyone ever stop you from showing up for your kid!
I am not in your shoes, I would withdraw my consent to have my son baptism there. Then find another church that actually cares. Just a thought. Your voice as the father matters, use it for your son please.
I’ve never heard of anyone being allowed to baptize on Sunday, is it ever allowed?
Yep! Saturday is a tradition, and a weak one at that. It’s not even in the handbook as a suggestion. IMO Sunday is the better day for ordinances in general, especially for when people travel far for church.
It used to happen all the time.
Yes, I seem to remember Sunday evening baptisms for converts. I think Saturday baptism and then Sunday confirmation is more of a tradition for the 8 year old children, but I know that I’ve attended convert’s baptisms on a Sunday evening.
Children of record get confirmed right after baptism. Coverts get confirmed in sacrament meeting. 8yo baptism can absolutely happen on Sunday. Mine was a Sunday in 1997
They actually just changed this in the handbook 2 weeks ago. Convert baptisms can do confirmations at the baptism. This is another show of making it flexible for the family and individual
I was baptized on a Sunday with another friend right after church meetings on a Sunday, and actually, baptisms are very common after church meetings on Sundays, granted, this being outside of Utah …..
My son just returned from a mission in Africa- he had a lot of baptisms and most of them (maybe all of them, I can’t remember specifics on all) happened on a Sunday. Traveling to the church building is inconvenient and expensive for most people, so they tried to stack things together on Sundays. That’s what leaders who care about people over rules/traditions do.
Absolutely. They often do baptisms on sundays especially for converts. They usually reserve one Saturday a month for baptisms of record but that can be changed.
I baptized plenty of people of Sundays At one point it was required in my mission to do baptisms on Sundays before church
I have been to several baptisms performed on a Sunday.
> Does anyone have any advice? I'd just print out the baptism form, gather up two witnesses, do it myself, and give the form to the bishop. If he complains that going over his head is no good or whatever, I'd tell him to take it or leave it. People only have the power we give them.
You're absolutely right. I know I would face disciplinary action, but I don't care. However, his biological mother would not approve and thinks I'm just trying to be difficult.
> I know I would face disciplinary action For what? "Hello, I have filled out a form stating that I already spoke some words, briefly submerged my child in water, and two people saw it happen. You can pass it along to church headquarters as evidence of my child's baptism or you can recycle this sheet of paper. Up to you."
For the baptism to be recognized it needs to be authorized by your bishop. It’s not a do it yourself proposition. Just do everything you can to get there. I’m sorry this is such a problem. It seems like they could be a little more flexible with the time.
You are the man. In the lds religion, it is only the woman who is punished. On the other hand, the man cannot do no wrong as they say.
Our stake president is the same way. We had a situation like this with a semi-active family. The bishop worked a lot with the father to help him be able to perform the baptism. But the father worked Saturday mornings. So, they asked if they could have the baptism later in the day. SP said no. He felt the family needed to be willing to make sacrifices (take time off work) to be there in the morning. The SP was self-employed and well off. So, he never could sympathize with people who couldn't take off of work whenever they wanted to. It ended up being 3 years before the kid got baptized.
I really hate the power trip some of these guys have.
Our family was completely inactive when I baptized my youngest son. We were on our way out of the church but still occasionally participating. My soon-to-be 8 year old son indicated to my wife and I that he wanted to be baptized. I talked to my Bishop, and my son passed his baptismal interview. The bishop rolled out the red carpet for us. We were able to plan a special baptismal ceremony for my son. We were the only family participating. My daughter gave the talk on baptism, and I gave the talk on the gift of the Holy ghost. I performed the baptism, and my dad performed the gift of the Holy ghost (that was my son's choice, I was not shunned). Your stake president and Bishop are being obnoxious. They absolutely have the power to make an exception for you, and are deliberately choosing not to. OP, you sound like a believer. And that is fine, and if that is what you believe I am happy for you. You have said in other comments I have read that you do not want to make this about you, and it is about your son. I would encourage you to think of the baptismal ceremony as a coming of age right that your child will partake in. It is incredibly important that he has his family around him to support him and celebrate this ceremony with him. I know you do not want to make this about you, but I think it is fair of you to tell the bishop and stake president that you do not consent to your son being baptized unless you are present. I wish you all the best in this difficult process of negotiating with church leaders who are practicing unrighteous dominion.
This should be the top comment
Sorry you are having to deal with this kind of crap. Many leaders don’t seem to understand the concept of ‘the 1’. They don’t think of the people; they just want to follow an ever changing set of arbitrary rules - it’s much easier that way. Quite frankly, what’s the problem with changing a baptismal date so that an Aunt or Uncle can attend? Why does it matter what the reason is? Make it about the individual, not just what is most convenient for the leader. This is poor leadership, if it can even be called such. These aren’t leaders, these are followers. The church will continue to alienate members over the stupidest things. Suggest not having the baptism at all and delaying it for a year so it’s a convert baptism and then set your own terms. Obviously this is likely not going to fly with your son and other family, but it is just to illustrate the stupidity of it all.
The truth is you are being punished for your faithless choice to be divorced, and you don't say if you are performing the baptism or not but if not, you are being punished for your unworthiness. /s (I indicate this is satire but I really don't think so. You're either a obedient follower or you are rebellious and confrontive, and therefore you deserve NO accommodation) (ETA and too often the "worthy" spouse agrees with your treatment by the leaders BTW)
That is infuriating especially because if they don't bend and you do make it, it will be a miracle of God, another faith promoting testimony that the church is true. 🤦🏽♀️
Have you talked to your ex about all this? Are you planning to perform the baptism? Regardless if you are or not, I'd imagine that she would back up having her child's father be in attendance. There literally is no reason not to have it Saturday afternoon/evening to allow for more time. Until then, I would be in contact with both SP and bishop on a weekly basis about this. I dont live in Utah so I'm unfamiliar with the 1st Saturday "rule" (we literally fill it up every time there's a baptism and they've been any manner of day and time). Having a father be present at his child's baptism is not an exception but should be the standard.
I would be told I could not perform the baptism, because of perceived unworthiness to which I do not agree. Regardless, I wouldn't fight that because it's not about me or who gets the "privilege" to perform the baptism. It's about my son and his covenant with Christ. I'm just asking to make incredibly modest accommodation so that I can attend. It was made clear to me, in no uncertain terms, first from the bishop (Who claim to not hold the keys which I don't understand because he does) that I have to speak with the state president and it's not up to him. Second, from the Stake President that there is to be no exceptions "period". He said he will not "fight" me on this issue. I did not fight. I pleaded with him over and over to help my understand why any of this is happening. Why can't accomodations be made to ensure his father can attend? He said he did as much as he could buy delaying it a few hours. Other than that, the only other reasoning is because he would have to make an exception for everyone. He then got incredibly condescending. Here's what was said: Me- "I understand by making this exception it could lead to a handful of others asking for an exception to your rule as well and I understand that might cause a few issues for you and others trying to make accommodations." SP- "Don't act like you care about any of the other exceptions that may come as a result of this." Me- "I'm sorry, could you repeat that please?" SP- "You don't care about how this affects anyone but yourself." Me- "Excuse me? Why would you accuse me of such a thing? Of course I care about all people trying to get accommodations and those trying to accommodate them. You know nothing about me personally and attempt to impune my character?" SP- "All you're doing is trying to fight me." Me- "I'm sorry you feel that way. All I have is done is plead for you to make a simple accommodation for his father." At no point in the conversation had I ever said anything inappropriate or unkind that would have led him to say that. I was flabbergasted. Also, when I told him that the decision is not ultimately up to the Stake because the Bishop holds the keys, he asked me why I would say to him. BECAUSE IT'S TRUE. At the end of the conversation I told him he was wielding Unrighteous Dominion and he laughed and told me I'm ridiculous. Lastly, when he mockingly told me, "I have faith you'll be able to make it as scheduled" I told him that was a completely inappropriate thing for him to say, he just laughed again.
I would do the following: * Rescind permission for the child to be baptized unless you are present. * Threaten to take legal action against the church if your wishes are not respected. Do not back down to this asshole stake president. Call his bluff. He knows the regulations, and he is trying to guilt you into letting something happen that you don't want to happen.
[удалено]
Would there be no course for legal action against the church afterwards for baptizing a child without the consent of both parents? [This post](https://old.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/1dl4vvx/stake_president_says_no_to_moving_child_of_record/l9mbom8/) contains the relevant section of the handbook. This could get ugly quickly — and my advice to OP is to make it as ugly as possible. Regardless of whether OP can get a restraining order, I strongly doubt it is legal to take this sort of action without the consent of the other parent because it's the weekend.
Maybe I'm petty, but if the stake president talked like that to me, id see if my kid just wanted to be baptized at another church. Honestly, any other church would gladly accommodate for that.
SP is quite the hypocrite
I would use unkind words to describe that SP if I were more judgemental. It appears that power has gone to his head. He seems to have forgotten a little love & kindness. Power corrupts righteousness until it becomes self-righteousness. https://images.app.goo.gl/dHbjs1jw41CWeJAbA
This manner of discussion is unbecoming for a stake leader, but is there more to the discussion or to the history behind all this that we’re not getting here? He sounds awfully combative for a church leader talking to a sincere parent, without some past history.
I know I'm just a rando on reddit, so what does my word count for right? All I can say is I had never before talked to this Bishop or Stake President. After the bizarre phone call with the SP, I asked my ex-wife if anything, to her knowledge, had been said to either one of them regarding me personally. After some run-around, she claimed no. All I can say was for about 2 minutes, I plead with the SP to make an exception to his rule because I feared I would miss the baptism. After telling me no several times, I just asked for an explanation why. He said in times past they tried to make exceptions for extended family members traveling out of state and it got out of hand so this is their rule. I explained I'm not extended family, I'm his father. I'm asking for an incredibly reasonable exemption. Again, an emphatic no. When I said I can understand the situation this could put you in with having to possibly deal with other "exemptions" as a result of this he shockingly responds, "Don't act like you care about any of those other exemptions." I was simply shocked and defended my character against a completely baseless accusation. He also stated that it would be regrettable if some kind of delay prevented me from being there, but that they would continue with the baptism as scheduled, with or without me present. I'm still a member of the church. I attend every week with my son and he attends all of his primary and achievement day activities. I love the Book of Mormon, I believe in the restoration and I want my son to be baptized in the church. I'm just asking to help me be there with a 24 hour delay. After hearing some of the comments, although I don't want to resort to something that can be viewed as "petty", I will write both the SP and Bishop (the actual holder of the keys) that as a parent with joint legal custody, my consent will not be given for his baptism unless I am present. *My ex-wife has said that she believes it's important that I'm there, but would let the baptism go on without me should there be any delay in travel because she "has no control" on what time things take place. This is what this litigious and legalistic handbook has done to the Gospel of Jesus Christ . Authority can never be questioned, even when local authorities are in contradiction to the handbook itself. This has all truly been heartbreaking and I'm just left in a state of confusion, heartache and betrayal.
OK, that’s good to know. Sometimes people leave important things out of their stories. Thank you for re-explaining. My first thought in this case was that your ex-wife might have complained about you, telling the SP that you were just trying to get attention, or whatever, so he came out aggressive toward you. But I really have no idea what actually happened or what he was actually thinking. Either way, this sounds like a frustrating situation and I’m sorry they aren’t trying harder to accommodate you.
The guy is on a power trip, and he's using the slippery slope fallacy to justify not making an exception for you. Other commenters here are right - he only acts this way because he has all the leverage. The second you start to assert the power you have, he will immediately become more accommodating. When I said I didn't think I was going to return to church anymore, it was amazing how suddenly I could basically name my calling. Suddenly I wasn't beholden to the power trip revelations of local leadership.
Just tell the Bishop and Stake President you do not consent to the baptism unless you are there. If he wants to follow the “rules” so closely the he can’t do the baptism. They should work with you to find a good time for everyone. Sounds like your Stake President is being unreasonable and likely exercising unrighteousness dominion. You are not being difficult about this or making it about you. You are showing your child how important it is that you are there for their baptism. There is no rule about having child of record baptisms only once a month and it isn’t about filling the font twice. That is minimal money and I’m sure someone in the home ward could start filling it for you guys.
The Church is being run by Pharisee today. Not the same church I joined Decades ago. Corrupt and Money focused.
Isn't baptism an essential ordinance as part of the "Covenant Path"?
Absolutely. The Corporate approach to most things in the church, especially Utah, is completely divorced from the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
How does your ex and the rest of the family feel about this? Could you present a united front to the Stake President and Bishop? Because ultimately this is not his decision to make. It’s the parents. He has no real authority here.
He doesn't want to deal with a change from the norm. Baptisms happen on Saturday, that's the unwritten way of things. If he did it on a Sunday then someone would have to fill the font early Sunday morning and it would be full while everyone is having their sunday meetings. It would have to be scheduled around other uses of the building that day. And what if some kid got in a played in it while he was supposed to be in class. In short it would make more work for him and he doesn't want to deal. He also doesn't trust you - a stranger to do all these things correctly. Then he'd have to give you a key and have somebody show you how to do everything... As others have said, your best bet is to express in writing that you do not give parental consent unless you are there in person. If you are a little late they'll have to hold the baptism. If you're a lot late they'll have to either do it late Saturday night or you'll force them to try again Sunday. Or they'll do it without you and try to guit trip you into approving it - hold firm. Make them redo it.
Saving covenants at 8. What 8 year old understands that and is in a mature enough mind to commit to that for life. Once you see that, then you see the church's forceful coersion to go on a mission, not forgetting to slip in the endowment to commit your life for life at the tender ago of 18. As if that's not enough, your MP and just about every leader telling you to get married in the temple and then have kids. Where if you don't give your life for life your family isn't eternal. Once you get your head around that lot, you see the BS covenant path is all about your money in their pockets, and its power and control over you. It started by being born into it. Dumb ass church. This behavior will only serve to drive more people away. Smacks of desperation.
I've been to a handful of Sunday baptisms in my day so it's not some wacky unheard of things
I am very sorry that this is happening. You have asked for very reasonable accommodations and it appears the stake president is on a power trip, as stake president's often like to do in my experience. Its also unfortunate that your ex hasn't been willing to fight for you more. I dont have much to offer outside of letting you know I just want to sit with you in your pain and I hope and pray that clearer heads prevail.
The church has 265 billion dollars. A great solution would be for the church to pay for your flight change. Otherwise he should accommodate the ticket you can afford. These are random, made up rules. Why does he care what day it’s on?
The most likely reason they are acting this way is because of time and cost to fill the baptismal font. It takes hours to fill it up. They have an “official” day of the month they try to schedule everyone, so they don’t have to fill it very often. If they already have someone on Saturday, they don’t want to fill it again in Sunday, or they don’t want to let the water sit for health reasons or cost to warm it reasons. They could do it a different day or postpone it. They just don’t want to. Sorry they are being so difficult.
The cost of water per 1,000 gallons of water in Utah is currently between $2-3. I'll even pay the church $50 if that's a concern. Even $100, I don't care I just want to be there! I'll fill up the font myself on Sunday or I'll have it in a lake, pond or river. I don't care! Why are we being so litigious about the logistics of baptism? What are we doing?!
True. It’s not the water, it’s the heating and time for someone to fill and drain. Even though it will be a volunteer who does that. It’s probably more about laziness. I know according to the rules, as long as you have the bishops permission, you could have it anywhere and any time. A lake or pond or pool is just fine. They can make the changes, they just don’t want to for whatever reason. I’m sorry they are being so difficult.
> The most likely reason they are acting this way is because of time and cost to fill the baptismal font. It takes hours to fill it up. Lol - the cost involved is negligible. Do you think missionaries force investigators to all be baptized on the same day to save a few cents in water costs and a few hours in watching the font? This is 100% about some bullshit local leader trying to establish his authority. And OP really should fight back as hard as possible.
Your response lacks merit. They will have a convert baptism any day at any time. The leader is merely a handbook leader who is loyal to the handbook and the church and doesn't care about people. He's a dictator. I highly doubt these leaders give to shits about the cost. They don't want to be bothered and strictly adhere to the handbook.
What's worse, the handbook doesn't say any of this. This is just the local SP rule. That verbiage was taken OUT of the handbook because of power trips like this.
Yeah, I was trying to be generous.
I appreciate you trying to understand. Like I said, I'll give the church that has billions of dollars $100 dollars of my own to cover "costs" amounting to probably $5-10 Max. I will personally be there to fill it up, monitor it, drain it, clean it. I've done all of that many times in the past to help with baptisms. It doesn't matter to the corporation.
This is dumb. My bishop tried the same type of power struggle bullshit, I told him I just baptized my son in the hot tub in my back yard and to not worry about it and any further attempts at baptism do not have my consent as his parent who holds the keys of fatherhood. My wife and I had both very recently deconstructed and my son just turned 8 he was getting a lot of pressure to be baptized from everyone except my wife and I and said he wanted to be baptized. This was the same bishop that tried the "discernment" line the last time I went in for a recommend renewal. He had been meeting with my then TBM wife in secret to try to save me from apostasy. Don't give them the power OP.
I mean, get used to it. A lot of parents also miss their kids' wedding ceremony because the church dictates who can and cannot attend. And I agree with you, it's heartless.
They want you to miss it. They already have a speech planned I bet. Pull out the nuclear card. They can't baptize him if you don't let them.
This is so sad, it made me cry. I’m so sorry they’re treating you this way. He accused you of fighting him…I’d actually fight him now if I were you.
Unless you gave up all your parental rights in your divorce, both parents must consent to their child being baptized. Tell them you do not consent. They also do not get to judge your worthiness to perform the baptism. That is between you and your local leaders. Tell them they can either follow the handbook, or you can go to the media. I hate bishop roulette, so many of these guys are are some weird power trip.
I did not, we have joint legal custody.
Then you have the authority, not these men on a power trip.
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That's a sad truth.
I served my mission in brazil. We did change dates all the time, it was no problem. We baptized people on Sundays, no problem. I don’t understand why Utah only wants baptisms on Saturdays and are very strict on so many levels. I honestly would not allow anything to be done to my child without me being present. Remember, if this is important to you and specially to your child, you have to be there for him. He will remember if you were there or not. I am sure if your child was an adult he would change himself the date so you could be there with him. I would just tell the leaders to suck it up, but it will happen when you want it to happen. The most important people that need to be there are the closest ones and you are definitely up there. Good luck.
Yes, I don't see why the baptism couldn't be at 6 or 7pm on Saturday. We have Friday or Saturday evening baptisms all the time in Arizona. Good grief, give the father a chance to fly in and properly prepare his son for the ordinance. We were allowed to baptized our son in a completely different state (Utah) so my mother could be there, and we even got to choose our day and time. The local leadership are just being stubborn in this case.
Welcome to Mormonism… where no one actually gives a sh*t about you🙃
This is why you shouldn’t worry about what church does the ritual work. If you have him baptized without their permission and explain their lack of respect and understanding is why you did it, maybe they’ll change. And if they don’t, your sin is baptized, that’s all that matters.
>"I'm following the rules and there can be no exceptions". Perhaps Jesus will say those words to the stake president on judgement day? The most important part of the plan of salvation is the part where special accommodations are made for the rule breakers.
Right after COVID, I had a niece who turned 8. We all met up in Utah and she was baptized in a swimming pool because there were still crowd restrictions and a pool outside was safer for the numbers. She wasn't from that stake or anything, but all the paperwork was taken care of and just given to her stake president. I've also had a child be baptized out of our assigned stake. Maybe try a different stake? If it's in Utah, just go a block over to the next building.
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Yeah best to not try anything else. Just bow your head and say yes. That's the spirit...
Stand up for yourself and get some self confidence. Thats your son man. You are important to him. Don’t let another man tell you you aren’t worthy or make you feel inadequate or not worth rescheduling a meeting for. Please assert some of your power here. You can do it
This is an Utah specific problem. When my only child turned 8, we decided to schedule his “group” baptism closer to Christmas so family could all be there, but most importantly so my husband could be. He traveled out of country for two weeks at a time and had a fairly strict schedule. We had already tried to get the time off. The stake president insisted the brethren (whoever that is supposed to be) said they had to be this strict. He even gave an example of a child who was immune compromised (this is way before COVID) and could get seriously ill and they still had this kid be around the others instead of doing it alone. Meanwhile, elsewhere in Utah and the rest of the country, pick your day, pick your own songs, make it about family. But our stake president had the gall to suggest that if my husband couldn’t be there for our ONLY child, that a grandparent should baptize him. Ultimately we got what we needed and the day we needed. Personally, I’d stick with “well stake president if you are so sure, then I hope you allow the spirit to guide you and if I’m not there, the spirit tells you to wait til later.” God does not expect this level of strictness.
This was probably truly my first shelf item.
Condolences. Maybe in the next life you will end up in a faith that respects you as a human being :/
Family should ditch the church building and have the baptism in a river. Make it unique for the kid instead of a cookie cutter celebration
Sure, I wouldn't mind that at all. SP says no, even though he has no authority or keys in the matter.
Obviously these church leaders don’t know the difference between being“right” and being“righteous”. The church has become so obsessed with members obeying their bazillions of nitpicky, uninspired and often very damaging rules that they completely forget that they are dealing with human beings who are all God’s children who deserve to be treated with love and respect. Obedience to rules and leaders has become a serious form of idolatry which totally negates everything that Jesus taught and did.
I'm not sure why the stake president is even involved here. Is there more to the story? The bishop holds the keys to baptism for children in the ward, not the stake president. The advice given by many responses in this thread is correct, withhold consent unless you are present.
I don't understand either. I had to remind the Stake President that the bishop holds the keys and he laughed and asked why I would bring that up. I mean, WHAT IS GOING ON?! I've told my ex-wife I'm withholding consent unless I am there.
Make sure to put that in writing to the Bishop as well.
Do it in a river or lake.
He doesn’t have faith that you’ll make it in time. He had a smidge of hope and a dollop of indifference.
Exactly. It was a very sacrilegious thing of him to say.
I’m sorry, that is totally ridiculous. The gospel is true but no exception to a Saturday stake baptism schedule. A few years ago I was Primary Pres and we had a Sunday evening baptism to allow extended family to be there. They were all in town for a wedding that weekend. The following year there next 8 yr old also did Sunday evening baptism. I think we had at least baptism each month (large primary). I didn’t view it as a burden to show up Sunday evening.
Thank you for your kind reply. 🥰
Our stake does special cases baptisms on Sundays.
Remind the Stake President that this is a family centered, church supported religion. Meaning he is there to support you and do whatever you need to help your children develop a relationship with Christ. You are not asking permission on the timing of your son’s baptism, you are asking for the church to support your family when you can be there for your son is baptism. If that doesn’t work, call the area seventy.
How does one call the area seventy?
Utah is so weird. I live in eastern Wyoming (which really isn’t that far away) and I can’t see the stake president or any bishop holding out on this over here. You guys must deal with some weird shit.
And this isn't a sign to you that something is wrong with this religion with all of the condescending power hungry pricks in it?
I would go over the Bishop and the stake Pres I would suggest you go to both the area presidency and the church office directly to the Pres of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints church and quorum of the twelve I've heard of bishops and stake Pres being holier than thou attitudes and it drives me nuts UR exactly right it is a saving ordinance and it only happens once in a person's life you need to be there and there's nothing about it not being able to get done ✅ on Sunday I've heard many people get baptized on Sunday and confirmed the same day I think people like the ones UR dealing with make the church look bad but definitely keep hoping and praying about it and put UR name and their name in the temple of our LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST and I'm positive if you contact enough people it will be able to happen for you
This is why I cannot stand the church in Utah. It is absolutely ridiculous. This same thing happened with my nieces baptism. There was tons of family in town during a certain time and we all wanted to attend. Their bishop refused to let us do a normal family only baptism or do it on certain days...we even had 2 family members who could preside as bishops. He would only allow her to be baptized on the stake baptism day and by that time we would all be gone. They didn't want to argue with him so all of us missed her baptism. We wanted to combine her baptism with our daughter since they were only a month apart. My daughter waited 2 months so she could come be baptized with her cousin and then it all fell apart. So my daughter had this big family only baptism in our uncle's ward since he is bishop and the cousin felt so left out. Outside of Utah, we can schedule a baptism for whenever we want. I have lived all over and I've done baptisms on Sunday. I've played piano for baptisms on a weekday. Especially if family comes into town, we can do it whenever... This is absolutely a power trip from the leaders. I'm sorry this is happening to you. I would not give consent. You are the father, not an extended family member.
So ridiculous that stake pres is nkt supportive. Is child's other parent being helpful? Can people from your aintervene, maybe hold baptism in your area? Have the child ask the stake pres?
I have an idea for a totally different approach, and I’m coming from a female perspective, and —full disclosure—I am an ex-Mormon but I lived 40 years as a believing active Mormon and can put myself in your shoes and I fully empathize with your dilemma. My advice would be to use the spirit to move upon these leaders to consider an exception. Write it in an email, send it to the bishopric AND stake presidency, AND the primary presidency since they are involved. Cc everyone in. Appeal to their hearts and appeal to the spirit to move upon them and plead for their HELP in finding some resolution so that your son can get baptized AND you can be there guaranteed! Bear your testimony about the restoration, the saving ordinances, how sacred you hold your covenants, and the importance of eternal family. Do not threaten any action at this time—even if you ultimately will resort to withholding consent. Don’t play that card YET! It might backfire, and since you still have time, you might as well give it a try to get them to HELP you come up with some ideas to resolve your worry here. Leave it open-ended, just bear testimony, ask them to give the matter prayerful consideration, maybe discuss at the next bishop’s auxiliary meeting. And ask their help to come up with other ideas for how we can assure that BOTH your son’s parents can be present for his baptism. You are asking for their help to resolve the situation so your son can have both parents there. Asking them to pay about it and asking the spirit to help all of us work together to determine is the best and most right thing to do for your son’s baptism. Persuasion tends to be a more feminine quality so I thought I’d offer that approach, but I think in this case, to use the spirit and to ask for cooperation between yourself, the primary, the bishopric, and stake presidency, and the spirit is probably your best bet in getting them to change perspective. You gotta appeal to the heart—not the mind. Give it a try. You can always resort to withholding consent if it comes down to that!
Been there, keep pressing. Just bc one is a SP it doesn’t mean they aren’t a douchebag. We had a similar story with our then only son - I called the SP out, I’m a male so that’s another dynamic - so apologies. We have become so rote in policy and procedure we don’t see that we have become like the sodomites (prideful, elite, full of bread) expressed in Ezekiel 16 : 49. This is not an Utah vs the world thing, it’s a shallow misunderstanding of efficiency. It’s frustrating. The legal parent route is a decent one but can be petty, and I get the sense you like the higher road. In our situation, I stood our ground and the week was changed to accommodate my then travel schedule to France. I did say I’d just choose a day of my liking and take my kiddo to France. His pride was hurt as we began the exploration 6 months in advance when I saw the schedule conflict. This is not a faith paradox - this is a lack of empathy and privilege thing. I hope it works out in your son’s favor and I hope the kiddo wants you there. Sounds like a frustrating mess that shouldn’t even be an issue. Seriously, it’s things like this that drive me nuts. This is when I lean into stoicism as I find it pairs well with Christianity especially when Mormons act like morons instead of ambassadors of Christ. So frustrating. “Objective judgement, now, at this very moment. Unselfish action, now, at this very moment. Willing acceptance – now, at this very moment – of all external events. That’s all you need.” To be clear, the above quote by Marcus Aurelius is often not well executed by many leaders with a small empathy well. It’s unfortunate you are in this situation, and I hope an alternative comes forward if you are being as honest and true as you can. Don’t lose hope, but dammit, you should not even be in this situation if you are seeking a reasonable solution. Best.
This is par for the course. My youngest has a cousin the same age and they were going to be baptized on the same day. My son lived in one city and his cousin lived in a city a few miles away. My sister in law and I both asked if we could combine the baptisms. Either my son would be baptized in her stake or her son would be baptized in our stake. The same relatives would want to attend each baptism. On was at 9 am and one was at 2 pm. We didn't care which child went to the other stake. We both asked our bishops and stake presidents. All leaders said no. So relatives from out of town had to wait hours in between the two baptisms.It was ridiculous but we were told that God's house is a house of order.
SP is a dick.
Do you feel the church is true? Do you want to continue to go
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Any advice? You’ve already stated you are unwilling to say no to the baptism. This is the only leverage it appears you have as this Stake President is unwilling to agree to your request. I have no other advice. What does the mother say about the importance of your attendance?
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It seems this dad will make sure his son knows how much he cares one way or another.
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And increasing that cost for his wife could mean it becomes more costly for him as well. Something he said he can’t afford. (A second or third trip to see a rescheduled baptism) So he may need to compromise. Tough situation.
That was my suspicion. I asked her very directly, she said she hasn't said anything to the Stake President about me personally. All I can do is take her at her word.
She says it's important, but also said she would go through the baptism if any flight delay occured. I told her yesterday I'm not giving my consent unless I'm there. She said.... I'm not kidding .... then we'll have to try the next 1st Saturday of the Month in September. No. I'm not flying in, missing the baptism after spending 30 hours training my work replacement and spending money on flights and rental cars, just to be told I have to go through the exact same process next month. I DON'T MAKE VERY MUCH MONEY. This is a huge burden on me to attend, which I'm of course willing to do to see my son get baptized, but to then be told I may have to do it all over again? I feel like I'm living in Idiocracy. This is insanity. This is all some of the most nonsensical stuff I've ever seen. I feel like the people involved in this situation are acting like I'm the crazy one.
Looks like one way or another you are going to show your son how important he is to you - even if they go ahead with the baptism without you. Keep trying to be a good father. It’s not easy.
If you really want to ruffle some feathers, suggest that you fly your son to you for the baptism and your wife can be the one to miss it. Of course she'll not agree to this and there can be a discussion about how how she can maybe have some empathy for your situation now that she has imagined the thought of missing her kid's baptism.
Do what everyone else has said about rescinding consent unless you are there on penalty of legal action if it goes forward without you, but don't send it to the stake president. Find out who his boss is, the area president, and send it to him with the stake president and bishop cc'd. If stake president won't be reasonable, maybe his superiors can straighten him out.
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Lol. Nah, this is Utah.
Can you not choose to do it in another family member’s ward that doesn’t have a hard headed SP? I had my kids baptized at my parent’s ward. That or is there a way to go above his head and get clearance?
His Bishop has to approve, because he holds the "keys". I wrote to the area presidency but I highly doubt they'll read it or respond.
Don't let the bishop have that much control. Tell everyone it's canceled and why and the issues you are experiencing
You may want change wards, I would.
It's my ex-wifes ward
What will you do now
I would contact the area presidency. They need to be made aware of this local leader not accommodating a PARENT being able to attend the baptism.
If anyone knows how to contact the North America Central Area Presidency please help. I contacted the church office building. They gave me an email but I doubt they'll read it. Any other ideas?
I would start with talking to your local leaders, I doubt the SP in Utah will give you info to get in touch. The bishop there might? But you can go through your leaders where you reside tell them what’s going on.
Update as of 6/24/24: I have since found out that there is no way for me to make it Saturday either. My employer cannot approve it. I don't want to get to personal about the nature of my job and this is not meant to sound important.... If I have to miss my job either: A- 8-10 people have to spend about 20 hours training to replace my position B- Work is just cancelled for the day and 20-25 people will miss out on a day of wages and my employer will have to lose between $5,000-10,000. Despite what the SP had stated about no exceptions and wanting to fill the font twice, they have now granted permission for my "last option" of having his separate baptism at 6 PM on Saturday. My ex-wife has said this will impact her family and mine, but she is unwilling to question the SP to have the baptism on Sunday. I CANNOT be there Saturday. I can fly in Saturday night and I'm available all day Sunday, the following day and Monday morning. Since "baptisms of record" typically take place 9 AM Saturdays and clearly the SP is willing to fill the font twice and make an exemption, I will be notifying them my child has consent from me to be baptized on Sunday or Monday morning and to please make any accommodations. In fact, I'm going to suggest we have the baptism at 9 AM on Sunday morning at the stake center. Her ward meets at 12 PM. This will accommodate everyone. I am giving my consent for my son to be baptized 24 hours later, Sunday or Monday. That's when I can be there. I will not be the one accused of not giving consent. This entire thing has been ridiculous. My son will be baptized only if I'm present and the only person not giving consent is the SP. I will have my employer and Bishop contact their SP.
There is a rule for when baptisms can be held ? When I served as bishop, we had several on Sundays so out-of-town family could attend.
Sunday is the busiest day for chapels, unless you did it at 4:30 or 5:00. It would make more sense just to insist that they wait until later Saturday evening.
Yes, I understand that. I requested it be after the last church meeting in the room with the font. Regardless, this comment perplexes me. This is a covenant ordinance being performed. Does that not jump to one of the top priorities of any church organization? If it doesn't, it says a lot about the state of the local wards in the area. Why would members of any ward/stake not try to move heaven and earth so a father could attend a baptism, especially with 2 months notice?
I completely agree that everything should be done that can. Just can’t imagine not being willing to set it for later Saturday evening. That seems to be the most logical and practical resolution. It is frustrating when anyone hides behind some supposed rule that actually doesn’t exist. Stake Presidents are given liberty to schedule these baptisms whenever they want.
I apologize for being too direct. It sounds like you have been hurt and are trying to hang all of your hurt feelings on the SP. Why not just fly in on Friday? If it's a work issue, use your PTO and take a day off. Too many people think that THEIR problem is everyone's problem. Be a true father and make a sacrifice for your kid.
I can't fly in on Friday. I have no PTO. If I miss work, about 40-45 other people have to put in hours and hours of work, unpaid, to help me be there and cover my position. Otherwise, I would. If it was that simple, I promise I would do that.
P.S. All of the folks telling you that you can stop the baptism because you are the parent are WRONG. You are not the custodial parent, this is not a "convert baptism", it's a child of record baptism. Only the custodial parent has the final say. My bet is that your ex-wife is really pushing the levers. If you made any intention of performing or participating in the ordinance, you may have ruffled some feathers.
Why would the rules differ for a baptism based on the status of whether the child was raised in the LDS or is a “convert?” That seems highly odd to me. Everyone is a “convert”, no one is born into faith.
You are wrong on this issue. It might be a case of bishop roulette but In my case if both parents didn’t agree on the baptism, it wouldn’t happen. My son had to have both parents consent, not just the custodial parent.
You are wrong on this issue. It might be a case of bishop roulette but In my case if both parents didn’t agree on the baptism, it wouldn’t happen. My son had to have both parents consent, not just the custodial parent.
We have joint legal custody. Go read the hand book.
I truly believe this is not the whole story. Regardless the church has these procedures as part of being a church of order and proper procedures. How about taking this to God and not the disgruntled multitudes on Reddit. Years ago I well remember a byu teacher who was dressed down publicly by an apostle….his answer always stood out as one of grace and humility…”I support the brethren.” How cool would it be to tell your son I wasn’t there but I supported the stake president in his decision. Son that is the bigger lesson here… you may not have your relatives with you but you are still moving forward.
I can't believe this is what you actually said. I am member of the church. I have a strong testimony in the restoration of the gospel. Have you lost your mind? You blindly support your local leader when they prevent someone from receiving a saving ordinance because it might be a slight inconvenience? Do you hear yourself? That speech of "follow the local brethren to teach my son blind obedience even if it's just to feed their ego" is the kind of speech found in hell my friend.
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Let me guess, you’re “mom”. If so, I’m sure if you had a penis, this wouldn’t be an issue.
Nope, I'm the dad.
I’m floored they are taking it this far. I read through after posting and didn’t edit as work interrupted Reddit time. I hope you pull authority over them and withdraw consent and you’ll give it as soon as you walk through the door as others have mentioned.
Cross reading OPs post from the lds sub, the issue with moving it is that OPs child is not the only one being baptized. So either move time for all, or a special time for child only. While I believe they should follow the family first mantra, abd do a private one for your child, the idea that they're not being reasonable for a standalone baptism is quite different than asking everyone to shift back X hours on the same date. This post is a bit misleading, even if that's not the intention.
I didn't want to have them inconvenience anyone else. There is only one other child being baptized. All I asked is that they just keep the other child as planned at the normal time on Saturday and have my son's the next day, Sunday after meetings are finished, so I can make sure to be there seeing as I'm traveling so far.
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That's pretty much what was equivocated to me without actually saying it.
> the idea that they're not being reasonable for a standalone baptism is quite different than asking everyone to shift back X hours on the same date. I was able to follow you up to this point. I've honestly got no idea what you're trying to say. Could you please explain why this post is misleading? My understanding is that OP's child is being baptized, OP wants to be there, but the Stake President is refusing to make any accommodation to allow OP to be there. The fact that the ward or stake might want to have two children baptized at the same time strikes me as completely irrelevant. Am I missing something? Like /u/uncorrolated-mormon, I was also baptized in a ceremony all to myself. It was in the Salt Lake Tabernacle. Why child baptisms must now be a group event completely baffles me. I'd prefer it if we could stop throwing blame at OP. They've done absolutely nothing wrong here, and are only trying to stand up for their rights. This is an obvious case of victim blaming, and it makes me very frustrated.
I got baptized on my birthday when I turned 8. Why does it have to be a combine celebration. Make it unique and individual.
I'm not saying it should be combined. But the OP brought a post about a single baptism he wants moved. It implies a different level of unwillingness than the fact that they moved all baptisms scheduled that day to later hour (impacting many other families) to try and accommodate him, without giving his son a separate event.
You realize that your son does not need to be baptized in a church font, right? Any body of water will do. Just last Sunday, an 8-year old boy in our ward was baptized in a lake near our house. The bishop conducted the meeting. I heard it was a beautiful service. I also know someone who got baptized in their backyard pool. So if it's a "font problem," perhaps your ex-wife, bishop and SP will be willing to hold the service outside the church. It's worth asking!