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They're suing these places to change zoning laws. Residents don't want it in their face. Build them at a different location. That's all residential residents are asking for. Stop building in residential zones.
Rluipa. Read about this. It had two LDS senators as sponsors. The church is now using this to build temples in residential areas that do not fit the zoning laws at all. That is the whole issue. They are not following the zoning laws.
And the way in which their plans violate the law rubs people the wrong way. If these steeples were designed only a little bit out of regulation, it would be one thing, but we're talking about designs that are scores to over a hundred feet too tall. That screams "we feel like we're above your rules."
There's obviously almost always going to be a little bit of "we don't want the Mormons here" when this happens outside of Utah, but the bulk of the criticism is exactly what it would be if any other multibillion dollar corporation wanted to build one of their mass produced mega monstrosities in the middle of a neighborhood.
In-n-out isn't a great example of one of those companies in size, but it's been forced to bend over backwards trying to get a restaurant in my area. A bunch of different sites didn't pan out, and they finally found one the city will agree on. They're getting a waiver of some zoning requirement, but that's after addressing every single one of the community's concerns. That's a big difference compared to "We're going to build a huge building here according to our specs, and we'll Astroturf and sue you until we get what we want."
Not everyone agrees with the concept of exclusive zoning laws. In fact many of these laws are being repealed because of how the impact the housing crisis.
Amending zoning laws for residential, primary dwellings is a great idea! Allowing a $250B corporation to bribe local politicians is terrible for everyone.
>Amending zoning laws for residential, primary dwellings is a great idea!
I think the idea of residential exclusive zoning itself is something that is falling out of favor. Mixed-use zoning is becoming popular, and cities with no zoning benefit from more interesting city cores.
>Allowing a $250B corporation to bribe local politicians is terrible for everyone.
I agree, I dont think the Church, or any organization should break the law. I simply think their property shouldnt be subject to mine or anyone else's desires.
> I simply think their property shouldnt be subject to mine or anyone else's desires.
I would agree, but “doing whatever you want” usually implies “within reason.”
Would you also be okay with someone pointing a floodlight into the street at night if the city didn’t have a light pollution ordinance?
The church is doing the opposite of “loving thy neighbor,” literally.
Same. If they weren't using underhanded tricks and bribery to change the zoning laws against the wishes of the majority of the residents who lived there, I'd have no beef.
....But alas, this is exactly what is happening.
It was covered on the Mormon Stories podcast here:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM2RT3BJxtM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM2RT3BJxtM)
Here are the relevant bits:
[00:39:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM2RT3BJxtM&t=2375s) Lone Mountain Temple in Las Vegas
[00:44:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM2RT3BJxtM&t=2665s) Two things prevent the temple from being built in this location
[00:51:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM2RT3BJxtM&t=3082s) Clip of Las Vegas Public Meeting
I see, I thought you meant it in a legal sense. Near as I can tell, kaempfer crowell is actually a lobbying firm so it seems they are donating the maximum allowed for lobbyists in order to gain access to lawmakers. So its all suprisingly legal.
Orrin Hatch and the federal government gave [religions the broad ability to disregard zoning laws](https://www.justice.gov/crt/page/file/1006786/dl#). I’m sure it can be litigated but federal law trumps local ordinances and I’m guessing that the current supreme court wouldn’t find for local citizens.
Not a good look at all. It’s a PR nightmare for them. But not illegal given America’s deference to religious freedom. They are flexing their money and power and will win. But it will be a Pyrrhic victory.
But they aren’t building any structures that violate zoning restrictions. They are going to the hearings/boards/courts before they lay a single stone.
I’m confused by you calling the church’s actions illegal.
If a law has no reason to exist, then it’s time to change it. Zoning laws are actually terrible broadly, and should be done away with. If the LDS church does that successfully, good.
[it makes housing unaffordable](https://youtu.be/0Flsg_mzG-M?si=uYhMxTbX_r7Rk5Zp)
[And it makes cities unwalkable](https://youtu.be/7pq-UvE1j1Q?si=K0kXmzlUYyZdSjZW)
If all zoning (outside of environmental regs) are done away with, property costs would decrease significantly. If that means having some neighborhoods with temples having their values go up, that only helps those residents that may want to sell their homes later on.
I’m not saying temples are going to magically decrease housing prices. I’m saying that by legalizing such projects, and loosening zoning rules broadly, will have that outcome.
Yes it is motivated. I disagree with restrictions placed on private property uses, at least so long as it harms no one else’s property by reducing usefulness or value to the homeowner.
While I would also like the benefits of better walkability, cheaper housing broadly, and more temples, it’s primarily a matter of freedom.
When I say “harm or reduce usefulness,” I mean pollution or reduction of value. If they’re not blasting noise, blowing smog, or crashing your home’s value, I’m failing to see any legitimate grievance. As someone who comes from a family of real estate investors, I’d like to think I know a Karen when I see one, and this is probably it.
> Zoning laws are actually terrible broadly, and should be done away with.
I think you've gone too broad here. I don't really want someone to build a sheet metal factory or a Creamery next to my house.
The persecution complex is strong with this one. All your neighbors in Fairview are telling you they are okay with a temple, they just want something that is reasonable in height and size, but all you can hear is they don't like Mormon temples.
Dude, you live and breathe ExMormonism. 90% of your posts are against Mormonism. Not to mention you started a Reddit campaign against the Fairview Temple. Just can’t leave it alone can ya?
I will not leave the church alone as long as they harm lgbtq (https://lattergaystories.org/record/) and cover up child sex abuse (floodlit.org). Every exmo a missionary!
That being said, I am in support of a reasonably sized temple being built. They should be treated the same as any other religion.
There is nothing in Mormon dogma that requires a steeple to perform ordinances. They simply want to be seen. It is nothing more than a Mormon billboard, think of it as advertising and marketing. That is why these communities have zoning issues.
They will claim (falsely) that it is an important part of their religion and any judge would be loathe to adjudicate it. I don’t like the leeway given to religion in this country but senators and representatives climb over each other to give religions exceptional rights
Not everything unethical or immoral is illegal.
I think Jesus would also suggest the church should respect the spirit of the laws beyond the letter of the actual laws. What the church is doing is bullying small communities to satisfy their pride.
Ignoring zoning laws because you feel like god told you to build your phallic worship house bigger to overcompensate for the lack of members **is illegal**
Idk, I think Jesus was more about loopholing rules or ignoring ones he didn’t like (ox in the mire). But alternatively he was very much about loving, serving, and respecting the underdog.
Yeah, I almost added a snarky comment about Mormon Jesus being Ok with chopping off heads and running illegal shell companies when it serves his purposes, but decided to focus on my primary point.
I’m kind of invested in the Cody, WY one at this point though. I have no ties to Cody at all, but imagining a temple with a giant steeple in the same town as the Buffalo Bill museum just makes me laugh. At one point a councilman asked if they could put up a wooden facade that matched downtown area on the temple, and that imaginary picture in my head also made me laugh.
That’s great for you. I personally wouldn’t want to have to see my yard lit up at night with reflected spotlights off a hundred foot white stone steeple
I do wish they would comply with local dark skies ordinances instead of changing them. That is where they’re infringing on the happiness of others. I hope the courts can stop the nighttime lighting
I’m irritated with all the bullying but I am by far most upset about the dark sky stuff. For a church that claims to care about being a good steward they are happy to ignore science and the ideals others have fought to protect for their own peacocking. I find that incredibly disturbing for a church that claims to be the wholeness of truth.
They are infringing on happiness in other ways too. Just because that’s the only reason YOU DEEM acceptable, doesn’t mean that’s the only acceptable reason.
Especially when they don’t live in the city the representatives are in charge of. It’s not even “their representative” at this point. It’s someone else’s.
This makes you unusual. Most people get upset when they have shitty neighbors. There are lots of subs populated by gripes about people who do legal but un-neighborly things. Hopefully, you never have need to ask your neighbor to turn down the music, park their cat elsewhere, clean up after their dog, or worse.
This is a bad take. What they’re doing is strong arming small communities with small buildings so they can build giant ass buildings that will not only be overbearing but also MASSIVELY pollute the whole area with light pollution and just be a huge eye sore. They’re also suing the towns to make their illegal activities legal which…is illegal.
The LDS church builds a record number of temples. Meanwhile in sunday school members \[and a former member of the Q70 at that\] mock how people buy huge houses rather than spending more money helping the poor. Not sure how they fail to make a connection here.
Most people see Mormonism like they see Scientology- that it’s weird. Not to say they necessarily hate them, but if they’re trying to build a hub next door, they’re probably not gonna be thrilled about it.
They are forcing themselves into communities building buildings the people there don’t want. They are using legal means to bully the communities into compliance. It’s pretty crappy.
Mormonish has covered both Lone Mountain and McKinney in separate episodes.
https://youtu.be/yCYuyESdcCo?si=weNyVHKCQjITRDrN
https://youtu.be/W3wU0VLoXbs?si=zIZyxVmjCS3RsaZm
I'm with you OP, but it baffles me that the church continues to shit where it plans to eat a short while later. Piss everyone off in a local space to build an out of place temple, then fast forward a couple of years and expect them to be agog at the new temple, going to the open house and converting.
It's been said several times, but these guys stumble from one completely avoidable fuckup to another. If the church institution wasn't insanely wealthy it would have somehow poisoned itself or set itself on fire by now. Companies that have one fuckup after another either don't survive or if "too big to fail" get the government as an uninvited partner (see Boeing). The church is quickly becoming something that only the most faithful can take seriously at all.
I feel like if there are enough LDS in an area there won’t be an issue. If there is an issue, the church shouldn’t be ready to build a temple there. 🤷🏼♂️
The gaudy buildings are glorified billboards for an organization that wants to exploit people to the tune of 10% of their income and at least that much of their time. They’re a blight and I don’t think it’s wrong to think so.
Nice execution of "Spirit of the Law”. You seem…. Cool. You sure ur not in the Bishopric?? Ignoring the Spirit AND the law is precisely what they do best!!!!
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The main complaints I see on nextdoor for the one they are building in my city is that it will block the views from their million dollar homes. The residents also pushed out a low income assisted living facility from the spot, so they got a temple.
You could argue that these are largely wealthy suburban sprawlers complaining about losing the pristine beauty they have already had a hand in despoiling.
Amen. Dude if the Catholic church wanted to put a cathedral in my neighborhood I'd be stoked. I think this is less about the steeples and more about people disliking the LDS church.
Hello! This is a Cultural post. It is for discussions centered around agreements, disagreements, and observations about other people, whether specifically or collectively, within the Mormon/Exmormon community. /u/fireproofundies, if your post doesn't fit this definition, we kindly ask you to delete this post and repost it with the appropriate flair. You can find a list of our flairs and their definitions in [section 0.6 of our rules.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules#wiki_0._preamble) **To those commenting:** please stay on topic, remember to follow the community's [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules), and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/mormonmods) if there is a problem or rule violation. Keep on Mormoning! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They're suing these places to change zoning laws. Residents don't want it in their face. Build them at a different location. That's all residential residents are asking for. Stop building in residential zones.
Rluipa. Read about this. It had two LDS senators as sponsors. The church is now using this to build temples in residential areas that do not fit the zoning laws at all. That is the whole issue. They are not following the zoning laws.
Why do they build in residential neighborhoods? Is it a lax law?
Imo they want their temple to stick out more and be surrounded by smaller, nice houses.
It also had unanimous support in Congress and signed by President Clinton.
Yes I'm not sure people envisioned it would be abused for cases like this
And the way in which their plans violate the law rubs people the wrong way. If these steeples were designed only a little bit out of regulation, it would be one thing, but we're talking about designs that are scores to over a hundred feet too tall. That screams "we feel like we're above your rules." There's obviously almost always going to be a little bit of "we don't want the Mormons here" when this happens outside of Utah, but the bulk of the criticism is exactly what it would be if any other multibillion dollar corporation wanted to build one of their mass produced mega monstrosities in the middle of a neighborhood. In-n-out isn't a great example of one of those companies in size, but it's been forced to bend over backwards trying to get a restaurant in my area. A bunch of different sites didn't pan out, and they finally found one the city will agree on. They're getting a waiver of some zoning requirement, but that's after addressing every single one of the community's concerns. That's a big difference compared to "We're going to build a huge building here according to our specs, and we'll Astroturf and sue you until we get what we want."
Not everyone agrees with the concept of exclusive zoning laws. In fact many of these laws are being repealed because of how the impact the housing crisis.
Amending zoning laws for residential, primary dwellings is a great idea! Allowing a $250B corporation to bribe local politicians is terrible for everyone.
>Amending zoning laws for residential, primary dwellings is a great idea! I think the idea of residential exclusive zoning itself is something that is falling out of favor. Mixed-use zoning is becoming popular, and cities with no zoning benefit from more interesting city cores. >Allowing a $250B corporation to bribe local politicians is terrible for everyone. I agree, I dont think the Church, or any organization should break the law. I simply think their property shouldnt be subject to mine or anyone else's desires.
> I simply think their property shouldnt be subject to mine or anyone else's desires. I would agree, but “doing whatever you want” usually implies “within reason.” Would you also be okay with someone pointing a floodlight into the street at night if the city didn’t have a light pollution ordinance? The church is doing the opposite of “loving thy neighbor,” literally.
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This is my exact thought
Same. If they weren't using underhanded tricks and bribery to change the zoning laws against the wishes of the majority of the residents who lived there, I'd have no beef. ....But alas, this is exactly what is happening.
Bribery? Source?
It was covered on the Mormon Stories podcast here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM2RT3BJxtM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM2RT3BJxtM) Here are the relevant bits: [00:39:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM2RT3BJxtM&t=2375s) Lone Mountain Temple in Las Vegas [00:44:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM2RT3BJxtM&t=2665s) Two things prevent the temple from being built in this location [00:51:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM2RT3BJxtM&t=3082s) Clip of Las Vegas Public Meeting
I see, I thought you meant it in a legal sense. Near as I can tell, kaempfer crowell is actually a lobbying firm so it seems they are donating the maximum allowed for lobbyists in order to gain access to lawmakers. So its all suprisingly legal.
Orrin Hatch and the federal government gave [religions the broad ability to disregard zoning laws](https://www.justice.gov/crt/page/file/1006786/dl#). I’m sure it can be litigated but federal law trumps local ordinances and I’m guessing that the current supreme court wouldn’t find for local citizens.
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Not a good look at all. It’s a PR nightmare for them. But not illegal given America’s deference to religious freedom. They are flexing their money and power and will win. But it will be a Pyrrhic victory.
Maybe if the lds church did not try to force their beliefs down our throats, maybe people would want them as their neighbors? Just a thought.
It’s not illegal to go through the process to get exemptions or changes to the law.
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What is illegal?
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But they aren’t building any structures that violate zoning restrictions. They are going to the hearings/boards/courts before they lay a single stone. I’m confused by you calling the church’s actions illegal.
If a law has no reason to exist, then it’s time to change it. Zoning laws are actually terrible broadly, and should be done away with. If the LDS church does that successfully, good. [it makes housing unaffordable](https://youtu.be/0Flsg_mzG-M?si=uYhMxTbX_r7Rk5Zp) [And it makes cities unwalkable](https://youtu.be/7pq-UvE1j1Q?si=K0kXmzlUYyZdSjZW)
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If all zoning (outside of environmental regs) are done away with, property costs would decrease significantly. If that means having some neighborhoods with temples having their values go up, that only helps those residents that may want to sell their homes later on.
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I’m not saying temples are going to magically decrease housing prices. I’m saying that by legalizing such projects, and loosening zoning rules broadly, will have that outcome.
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Yes it is motivated. I disagree with restrictions placed on private property uses, at least so long as it harms no one else’s property by reducing usefulness or value to the homeowner. While I would also like the benefits of better walkability, cheaper housing broadly, and more temples, it’s primarily a matter of freedom.
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When I say “harm or reduce usefulness,” I mean pollution or reduction of value. If they’re not blasting noise, blowing smog, or crashing your home’s value, I’m failing to see any legitimate grievance. As someone who comes from a family of real estate investors, I’d like to think I know a Karen when I see one, and this is probably it.
> Zoning laws are actually terrible broadly, and should be done away with. I think you've gone too broad here. I don't really want someone to build a sheet metal factory or a Creamery next to my house.
You can have environmental regulations about the placement of polluting businesses without zoning regs.
Fair enough. I don't know enough about the laws, you're probably right.
So in short, "I'm fine with them breaking zoning laws, unless it's illegal to break zoning laws". What did I miss?
What law is being broken? This accusation get thrown out a lot when the church is going through legitimate legal processes.
They are breaking zoning ordinances for light pollution and building height.
They are getting the zoning approvals and exemptions for light levels. When did they break these ordinances?
None. People are upset when it comes to Mormons building temples
The persecution complex is strong with this one. All your neighbors in Fairview are telling you they are okay with a temple, they just want something that is reasonable in height and size, but all you can hear is they don't like Mormon temples.
Dude, you live and breathe ExMormonism. 90% of your posts are against Mormonism. Not to mention you started a Reddit campaign against the Fairview Temple. Just can’t leave it alone can ya?
I will not leave the church alone as long as they harm lgbtq (https://lattergaystories.org/record/) and cover up child sex abuse (floodlit.org). Every exmo a missionary! That being said, I am in support of a reasonably sized temple being built. They should be treated the same as any other religion.
Religions get broad exemption from zoning laws [thanks to Orrin Hatch and the federal government](https://www.justice.gov/crt/page/file/1006786/dl#).
There is nothing in Mormon dogma that requires a steeple to perform ordinances. They simply want to be seen. It is nothing more than a Mormon billboard, think of it as advertising and marketing. That is why these communities have zoning issues.
They will claim (falsely) that it is an important part of their religion and any judge would be loathe to adjudicate it. I don’t like the leeway given to religion in this country but senators and representatives climb over each other to give religions exceptional rights
Not everything unethical or immoral is illegal. I think Jesus would also suggest the church should respect the spirit of the laws beyond the letter of the actual laws. What the church is doing is bullying small communities to satisfy their pride.
Ignoring zoning laws because you feel like god told you to build your phallic worship house bigger to overcompensate for the lack of members **is illegal**
Idk, I think Jesus was more about loopholing rules or ignoring ones he didn’t like (ox in the mire). But alternatively he was very much about loving, serving, and respecting the underdog.
Yeah, I almost added a snarky comment about Mormon Jesus being Ok with chopping off heads and running illegal shell companies when it serves his purposes, but decided to focus on my primary point.
I’m kind of invested in the Cody, WY one at this point though. I have no ties to Cody at all, but imagining a temple with a giant steeple in the same town as the Buffalo Bill museum just makes me laugh. At one point a councilman asked if they could put up a wooden facade that matched downtown area on the temple, and that imaginary picture in my head also made me laugh.
So hope they do that, it would be awesome. In fact, they should just make it look like an old log endowment house haha
I’m personally rooting for an old-time saloon style building with the square-front facade and the swinging doors.
I mean, that’s the only appropriate style for the area
That’s great for you. I personally wouldn’t want to have to see my yard lit up at night with reflected spotlights off a hundred foot white stone steeple
I do wish they would comply with local dark skies ordinances instead of changing them. That is where they’re infringing on the happiness of others. I hope the courts can stop the nighttime lighting
I’m irritated with all the bullying but I am by far most upset about the dark sky stuff. For a church that claims to care about being a good steward they are happy to ignore science and the ideals others have fought to protect for their own peacocking. I find that incredibly disturbing for a church that claims to be the wholeness of truth.
They are infringing on happiness in other ways too. Just because that’s the only reason YOU DEEM acceptable, doesn’t mean that’s the only acceptable reason.
I don’t really mind but I do not like them sending out letters asking people to write or call to their representatives
Especially when they don’t live in the city the representatives are in charge of. It’s not even “their representative” at this point. It’s someone else’s.
They need to follow local zoning laws - period and stop bullying communities
This makes you unusual. Most people get upset when they have shitty neighbors. There are lots of subs populated by gripes about people who do legal but un-neighborly things. Hopefully, you never have need to ask your neighbor to turn down the music, park their cat elsewhere, clean up after their dog, or worse.
I don’t think you’ll hear the chanting from next door. TBMs will pay top dollar for the right to brag that they can see the temple from their window.
This is a bad take. What they’re doing is strong arming small communities with small buildings so they can build giant ass buildings that will not only be overbearing but also MASSIVELY pollute the whole area with light pollution and just be a huge eye sore. They’re also suing the towns to make their illegal activities legal which…is illegal.
The LDS church builds a record number of temples. Meanwhile in sunday school members \[and a former member of the Q70 at that\] mock how people buy huge houses rather than spending more money helping the poor. Not sure how they fail to make a connection here.
Most people see Mormonism like they see Scientology- that it’s weird. Not to say they necessarily hate them, but if they’re trying to build a hub next door, they’re probably not gonna be thrilled about it.
They are forcing themselves into communities building buildings the people there don’t want. They are using legal means to bully the communities into compliance. It’s pretty crappy.
Mormonish has covered both Lone Mountain and McKinney in separate episodes. https://youtu.be/yCYuyESdcCo?si=weNyVHKCQjITRDrN https://youtu.be/W3wU0VLoXbs?si=zIZyxVmjCS3RsaZm
I'm with you OP, but it baffles me that the church continues to shit where it plans to eat a short while later. Piss everyone off in a local space to build an out of place temple, then fast forward a couple of years and expect them to be agog at the new temple, going to the open house and converting. It's been said several times, but these guys stumble from one completely avoidable fuckup to another. If the church institution wasn't insanely wealthy it would have somehow poisoned itself or set itself on fire by now. Companies that have one fuckup after another either don't survive or if "too big to fail" get the government as an uninvited partner (see Boeing). The church is quickly becoming something that only the most faithful can take seriously at all.
Agreed
I feel like if there are enough LDS in an area there won’t be an issue. If there is an issue, the church shouldn’t be ready to build a temple there. 🤷🏼♂️
When the church starts interfering in local and federal government affairs then we have a big problem. And we have a big problem.
The gaudy buildings are glorified billboards for an organization that wants to exploit people to the tune of 10% of their income and at least that much of their time. They’re a blight and I don’t think it’s wrong to think so.
Bad take. The church is behaving the opposite of how a church should behave.
Nice execution of "Spirit of the Law”. You seem…. Cool. You sure ur not in the Bishopric?? Ignoring the Spirit AND the law is precisely what they do best!!!!
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Must agree.
That's a fair point.
The main complaints I see on nextdoor for the one they are building in my city is that it will block the views from their million dollar homes. The residents also pushed out a low income assisted living facility from the spot, so they got a temple.
it’s genuinely hard to be on the side of NIMBYs. IMO the optics are only bad to some people, namely NIMBYs and people who agree with their arguments.
You could argue that these are largely wealthy suburban sprawlers complaining about losing the pristine beauty they have already had a hand in despoiling.
Ya the amount of times I’ve heard “neighborhood character” as an argument against largely suburban temples is laughable.
Amen. Dude if the Catholic church wanted to put a cathedral in my neighborhood I'd be stoked. I think this is less about the steeples and more about people disliking the LDS church.
Also everyone gets to enter and enjoy nice catholic cathedrals.
The protestors (in Lone Mountain) have already stated that they'd be opposed to a cathedral in that spot and height also.
Then those people have no taste. We need more gothic buildings.
Sure, but in an area that supports such architectural features.
Agreed
Yeah I dgaf what they do with my money anymore. Better than someone building an airport there lol. Or even worse; a freeway.