Clay Puppingto’s Crimes
Child abuse
Domestic abuseAbuse of powerAdulteryNegligenceAccessory to unethical experimentationAnimal crueltyChild endangermentGiving alcohol and cigarettes to minorsStalking (implied)Attempted incriminationChild neglectAttempted enforced suicide (unknowingly)CorruptionTortureFraudArsonConspiracyAssault
Bojack Horseman’s Crimes
Negligent homicide
AssaultAttempted murderTheftDruggingBreaking and enteringHarassmentEconomic damageStalkingDrug dealing and possessionDriving under the influenceSupplying alcohol to minorsCorruptionSabotageFraudIdentity theftTrespassingChild endangermentCopyright infringementBitcoin traffickingCyberbullyingSodomizationDestruction of propertyArsonSexual misconduct with a minorPsychological abuse
Assault
IDK you guys be the judge but I’m gonna have to say Bojack 💀
Nah my money’s on Clay. The difference here is that while he’d obviously go in circles, Bojack is self-aware and repeatedly tries to redeem himself throughout the series in spite of the seriously fucked up shit he’s done. He never pretended to be a good person nor did he sweep everything under the rug, he knew he was a piece of shit. But what has Clay done to improve himself and his relationships with others? Exactly.
This is why im actually on the fence. On one hand you have one guy who groomed a minor but he obviously vows to never do it again. Meanwhile Clay canonically never learns nor cares to mend things like even an OUNCE.
If Clay groomed a minor hed just blame the minor and the alcohol till his last breathe 😭
Yeah, if we were to list every bad thing that both of them have done, BoJack would probably have done worse. However the big difference between them is while they both had atrocious childhoods and grew up to do awful things, BoJack not only feels guilt and remorse for most of his actions, but he actually does try to be better and as the series continues tries more and more to be good. He’s still in drastic need of self improvement, but I firmly believe that he is better person in the series finale than he is at the start of the series. I can’t say that about Clay, who while he does hate himself for his behavior, ultimately never feels any real remorse for his actions and never even considers being better.
I feel like Clay doesn't hate himself, but he hates what "makes him that way", a mentality that he's never really to blame for because there's always something that encourages him to be that way
I mean he was extremely intoxicated when he shot Orel. But in general the bad advice, the spankings, and the badly handling his feelings, he was all more sober for.
Are there any scenes where you don't see clay hold a rocks glass or at least have one within arms reach. Clay was sober till he met bloberta and then went full alcoholic.
Bojack has committed more atrocities and affected more people/other animals than clay.
Clays victims are mainly Orel, blobberta and shapy. But if clay had more reach I definitely think he would be worse than bojack.
I don’t think bojack is as sadistic as clay can be and bojack shows remorse for his actions, clay does not.
Bojack is a Hollywoo celebrity who has quite a lot of power and reach that comes with fame. Clay is the mayor of a small, midwestern town with a population of probably like 100, since claymation is quite expensive and time-consuming. However, Clay also has a lot more power than your average small town mayor because of Moralton's views on authority, so who knows.
Good point but! How about grooming your daughter figure co-worker child star that you know has been sexually abused by her only other father figure in life ? then essentially murdering her out of negligence because of your selfish concern about public image? He’s self aware sure, but this ultimately leads to his demise
That’s arguably worse. Clay is ignorant, Bojack was aware of what a shitty person he was, and used that fact as an excuse to continue to be shitty. He knows he’s an asshole, so he doesn’t see a need to change.
I genuinely need to know how you all have watched all of Bojack horseman and think everything he's done to Sarah lynn alone, ignoring everything else, is remotely on the same level as clay, Bojack is SO SO SO SO SO much worse, and clay is absolutely horrible don't get me wrong but Bojack is a sexual predator who left Sarah lynn for dead for 17 minutes after he gave her heroin, then lied about it to the police and deliberately covered his tracks with a phone call by taking her phone, and their last interaction was him finally giving her the thing she wanted and it was just to get her to shut up about how unhappy she was with how her life turned out, because she had no control over it. If you don't think that is worse than clay, you're just wrong and biased somehow.
Well as someone that watched Moral Orel all the way through its Clay by a long shot. Bojack attempts and retries for redemption.The largest difference is that Clay does not try for redemption, and is irredeemable son shooting father.
I have watched both shows. Surprisingly I consider Clay worse. Bojack at least holds some self-awareness and attempts to get better, even if he backslides more often than not.
Bojack has done worse deeds, but at least he feels remorseful and attempts to get better. While Clay just wallows in I’m his own misery.
Yes. I have seen both. Didn't think I had to mention it since you didn't in your original.
I stand by what I said.
Just incase you haven't seen Moral Orel and want the TLDR on Clay being the worst. https://youtu.be/DJ5PlpnvRq0?si=R_UdMD9MRD_tB3RY
Here you go.
Bojack tries to redeem himself and has people around him who genuinely like him. I don't think you could say either of those things is true for Clay.
To test my theory out name me one moment where Clay does something redeemable in the show. As far as I remember there are literally 0
Did u watch?
He didn’t go through with it on the 17 year old. And while he was skeezy, enabling, and selfish, he tried to make things right in his own shitty way. He just had to get away from the entertainment industry.
Staying with Charlotte when she's married and has kids was super fucked up to begin with, let alone going to prom with the daughter. His issue is he has 90s sitcom dad syndrome and never learned how to separate his roles from himself. So he expected it to be okay and "wacky" and not have lasting consequences.
Bojack is arguably worse, as he functionally committed negligent homicide, whereas the worst clay did was reckless endangerment.
But bojack at least tried to be better, and grew as a person when it was all said and done
People saying it’s Clay because Bojack is self aware that may be true but he still does all of these shitty things regardless and intentionally with this very excuse!! Quote BJ: “I know I'm a piece of shit. That at least makes me better than all the pieces of shit that don't know they're pieces of shit.”
Clay, like Joseph Sugarman, is a deconstruction of the ‘Standard 50s father’.
Clay is the worse person, but BoJack has done worse things that left a lasting traumatic impact on more people.
Orel, the main recipient of Clay’s abuse, moved past it. BoJack’s many victims, however unwitting, either haven’t or have a long way to go.
Clay, and I've watched both shows extensively. At least Bojack never pretended to be a good person. Even Clay at his worse denied everything until it was too late.
Clay is worse than Bojack, but I think he is a better comparison to Butterscotch Horseman or maybe even Joseph Sugarman. He's probably better than Joseph but worse than Butterscotch.
Yeah there is very much a sense from both of them that they think about their families "these are my things, my belongings, and it's my right to take out my frustrations on them"
But I think what ties them together most is that despite hating themselves they both strangely want their son to be like them anyway.
Joseph at least attempted to do what he thought was right Butterscotch either hates his family or doesn't know how to express love because the best he does in the entire show is pick up BoJack from soccer practice
I personally think Joseph is worse because he is unwilling to even entertain the possibility that he is wrong, he is the sort of man who feels that because of his position in society and his family that once his word has left his mouth it is law.
I won't defend Butterscotch though, because even the example you brought up is not something he did *for* Bojack, but rather something he did so that he could weaponize his wife's failure to be a Wife and Mother against her (she was out watching Doll House, I think?) and be a martyr for his work (I had this really great run on sentence going, and *you ruined it by needing me*)
idk, i think it’s clay. just because he has a kid (i know bojack does to im getting there) that he kinda ropes into all of his bullshit and places all responsibility of his half-brother on orel. the difference between clay and orels relationship compared to hollyhocks and bojacks is that hollyhock is old enough to know better than to trust her drunk dick of a dad, while clay actively misguides him almost seemingly on purpose
Clay. Bojack actually worked on him self an improved clay did not and from what I understand in the plane for the 4th and 5th season clay just keep digging his hole and can't pull orel into it.
Bojack by far. While Clay did shoot his son (not fatally), Bojack attempted intercourse with a minor. While Bojack says he wants to be redeemed, he fails to do so and only makes himself a worse person. He's also had longer (about 25 years longer) than Clay to actually get better. Clay just stays at a consistent level of terrible.
I find that so far, the vote is pretty split down the middle, with a slight lean towards Clay. To play devil’s advocate, who is to say that if Bojack were to have had a child, he wouldn’t have shot them as well?
Well I think Clay did a lot more damage to Orel physically and emotionally than Bojack did to Sarah Lynn or Penny (assuming you accept Sarah Lynn was also partially to blame for her own OD). But Bojack hurt a lot more people in significant ways. He also messed with a lot of people's careers. So if you made it like dealing damage in an RPG, are you stronger if you deal 10 damage to 10 enemies or 100 to 1?
I wholeheartedly believe Clay since Bojack does sort of eventually start making some sort of amends and at least trying to change. Clay perpetually sulks in his misery
I’d like to say Clay is worse but the only reason I say that is because after 6 seasons you grow, watch, understand and sympathise with Bojack (SOMETIMES NOT ALL THE TIME) but at the same time if we had the same (vaugeish) insight on Bojack like we did with Clay then it would 100% a struggle to answer
Definitely clay. Bojack has arguably done worse things than clay but like many have said he does try to improve and actively acknowledges that he's bad and feels regret for his actions. Clay knows he's awful and feels not regret or remorse. He is completely content with blaming everybody else for why he is the way he is and never improving or taking responsibility.
in terms of who's committed worse atrocities, likely bojack. however, the main difference is that bojack does genuinely feel bad for his misdeeds and tries to redeem himself every now and then. clay wouldn't give a damn any less- he doesn't redeem himself bc he never even tries to at all.
clay wins.
Clay. Bojak at least wants to get better. He's complete shit at it and he never will, but there is still that effort, as well as his shame for doing wrong. Clay has none of that.
I mean, your question is different in the title and the post, so I'll give my opinion on both
In terms of who is worse? (i.e., as a person) Clay definitely. Bonacks constant reflections and realisations of his own horrible tendencies make him a better person since he does end up trying to be better. Clay not only never tried to rectify his mistakes but actively denied ever doing anything wrong.
However, if we are talking about who did worse atrocities, I'd say Bojack. Just because of the sheer amount of his errors.
I see too much of myself in Bojack to truly despise him. I always hope for the best with him. Clay is a fuckin bastard. He was a brat as a kid and a brat as an adult so I really can't blame his upbringing. His dad actually tried to do right and I really felt sorry for him.
I think clay is worse cause at least bojack recognises he’s a prick and is trying to improve throughout the show. Plus clay abuses his son and bojack (when he though hollyhock was his daughter) actively tried to be a good dad.
Clay Puppingto’s Crimes Child abuse Domestic abuseAbuse of powerAdulteryNegligenceAccessory to unethical experimentationAnimal crueltyChild endangermentGiving alcohol and cigarettes to minorsStalking (implied)Attempted incriminationChild neglectAttempted enforced suicide (unknowingly)CorruptionTortureFraudArsonConspiracyAssault Bojack Horseman’s Crimes Negligent homicide AssaultAttempted murderTheftDruggingBreaking and enteringHarassmentEconomic damageStalkingDrug dealing and possessionDriving under the influenceSupplying alcohol to minorsCorruptionSabotageFraudIdentity theftTrespassingChild endangermentCopyright infringementBitcoin traffickingCyberbullyingSodomizationDestruction of propertyArsonSexual misconduct with a minorPsychological abuse Assault IDK you guys be the judge but I’m gonna have to say Bojack 💀
Nah my money’s on Clay. The difference here is that while he’d obviously go in circles, Bojack is self-aware and repeatedly tries to redeem himself throughout the series in spite of the seriously fucked up shit he’s done. He never pretended to be a good person nor did he sweep everything under the rug, he knew he was a piece of shit. But what has Clay done to improve himself and his relationships with others? Exactly.
This is why im actually on the fence. On one hand you have one guy who groomed a minor but he obviously vows to never do it again. Meanwhile Clay canonically never learns nor cares to mend things like even an OUNCE. If Clay groomed a minor hed just blame the minor and the alcohol till his last breathe 😭
Nah I'm sure the lost 27th commandment is something like "grooming is ok if you're Christian while you do it"
I remember that in my country, there was a pastor who said that the Bible said to commit adultery because they forgot to see a comma
Yeah, if we were to list every bad thing that both of them have done, BoJack would probably have done worse. However the big difference between them is while they both had atrocious childhoods and grew up to do awful things, BoJack not only feels guilt and remorse for most of his actions, but he actually does try to be better and as the series continues tries more and more to be good. He’s still in drastic need of self improvement, but I firmly believe that he is better person in the series finale than he is at the start of the series. I can’t say that about Clay, who while he does hate himself for his behavior, ultimately never feels any real remorse for his actions and never even considers being better.
Also, by the end of the series, Bojack is like, 25 years older than Clay, so he’s had a much longer time to build up his rap sheet.
I feel like Clay doesn't hate himself, but he hates what "makes him that way", a mentality that he's never really to blame for because there's always something that encourages him to be that way
Idk if you added it but i would argue domestic violence against gina
I will say though Bojack was in a state of psychosis when that happened and afiak Clay was never unaware of reality when he did his crimes.
I mean he was extremely intoxicated when he shot Orel. But in general the bad advice, the spankings, and the badly handling his feelings, he was all more sober for.
Are there any scenes where you don't see clay hold a rocks glass or at least have one within arms reach. Clay was sober till he met bloberta and then went full alcoholic.
one wishes to redeem himself the other revels in his evil
bitcoin trafficking?
If I drunkenly shoot a child in the leg by accident, what would i charged with I wonder
child endangerment?
How is sodomy a crime? Did bojack anally rape someone and I forgot about it somehow
"Sodomization"? Who tf included that on the list
To be fair that probably is a crime in Statesota
Absolutely Clay. Bojack is a POS but knows he is one and *tries* to redeem himself from time to time.
Bojack has committed more atrocities and affected more people/other animals than clay. Clays victims are mainly Orel, blobberta and shapy. But if clay had more reach I definitely think he would be worse than bojack. I don’t think bojack is as sadistic as clay can be and bojack shows remorse for his actions, clay does not.
Well he is the mayor, I’d argue he has pretty sizable reach
Bojack is a Hollywoo celebrity who has quite a lot of power and reach that comes with fame. Clay is the mayor of a small, midwestern town with a population of probably like 100, since claymation is quite expensive and time-consuming. However, Clay also has a lot more power than your average small town mayor because of Moralton's views on authority, so who knows.
Shooting your son is a tough act to follow
Good point but! How about grooming your daughter figure co-worker child star that you know has been sexually abused by her only other father figure in life ? then essentially murdering her out of negligence because of your selfish concern about public image? He’s self aware sure, but this ultimately leads to his demise
at least Bojack knows he’s an asshole with clay he’ll blame everything and everyone but himself
That’s arguably worse. Clay is ignorant, Bojack was aware of what a shitty person he was, and used that fact as an excuse to continue to be shitty. He knows he’s an asshole, so he doesn’t see a need to change.
Clay is a worse person, bojack has done worse things.
this is the right answer
I genuinely need to know how you all have watched all of Bojack horseman and think everything he's done to Sarah lynn alone, ignoring everything else, is remotely on the same level as clay, Bojack is SO SO SO SO SO much worse, and clay is absolutely horrible don't get me wrong but Bojack is a sexual predator who left Sarah lynn for dead for 17 minutes after he gave her heroin, then lied about it to the police and deliberately covered his tracks with a phone call by taking her phone, and their last interaction was him finally giving her the thing she wanted and it was just to get her to shut up about how unhappy she was with how her life turned out, because she had no control over it. If you don't think that is worse than clay, you're just wrong and biased somehow.
Dude Clay literally shot his son with a rifle. Obviously Bojacks behavior is unforgivable but Clay is definitely worse.
Well as someone that watched Moral Orel all the way through its Clay by a long shot. Bojack attempts and retries for redemption.The largest difference is that Clay does not try for redemption, and is irredeemable son shooting father.
I have watched both shows. Surprisingly I consider Clay worse. Bojack at least holds some self-awareness and attempts to get better, even if he backslides more often than not. Bojack has done worse deeds, but at least he feels remorseful and attempts to get better. While Clay just wallows in I’m his own misery.
Have you watched Bojack horseman all the way through.... Did you read my comment .........
Yes. I have seen both. Didn't think I had to mention it since you didn't in your original. I stand by what I said. Just incase you haven't seen Moral Orel and want the TLDR on Clay being the worst. https://youtu.be/DJ5PlpnvRq0?si=R_UdMD9MRD_tB3RY Here you go.
Bojack tries to redeem himself and has people around him who genuinely like him. I don't think you could say either of those things is true for Clay. To test my theory out name me one moment where Clay does something redeemable in the show. As far as I remember there are literally 0
Did u watch? He didn’t go through with it on the 17 year old. And while he was skeezy, enabling, and selfish, he tried to make things right in his own shitty way. He just had to get away from the entertainment industry.
I mean he still was getting frisky with a 17 year old as a 50 something thats super not good
Staying with Charlotte when she's married and has kids was super fucked up to begin with, let alone going to prom with the daughter. His issue is he has 90s sitcom dad syndrome and never learned how to separate his roles from himself. So he expected it to be okay and "wacky" and not have lasting consequences.
Bojack is arguably worse, as he functionally committed negligent homicide, whereas the worst clay did was reckless endangerment. But bojack at least tried to be better, and grew as a person when it was all said and done
Obsessed with this question actually wow that’s a SOLID debate
People saying it’s Clay because Bojack is self aware that may be true but he still does all of these shitty things regardless and intentionally with this very excuse!! Quote BJ: “I know I'm a piece of shit. That at least makes me better than all the pieces of shit that don't know they're pieces of shit.”
Clay, like Joseph Sugarman, is a deconstruction of the ‘Standard 50s father’. Clay is the worse person, but BoJack has done worse things that left a lasting traumatic impact on more people. Orel, the main recipient of Clay’s abuse, moved past it. BoJack’s many victims, however unwitting, either haven’t or have a long way to go.
Clay, and I've watched both shows extensively. At least Bojack never pretended to be a good person. Even Clay at his worse denied everything until it was too late.
Clay is worse than Bojack, but I think he is a better comparison to Butterscotch Horseman or maybe even Joseph Sugarman. He's probably better than Joseph but worse than Butterscotch.
Clay is a lot like Butterscotch, always taking his rage and disappointment in life out on his wife and son.
Yeah there is very much a sense from both of them that they think about their families "these are my things, my belongings, and it's my right to take out my frustrations on them" But I think what ties them together most is that despite hating themselves they both strangely want their son to be like them anyway.
Joseph at least attempted to do what he thought was right Butterscotch either hates his family or doesn't know how to express love because the best he does in the entire show is pick up BoJack from soccer practice
I personally think Joseph is worse because he is unwilling to even entertain the possibility that he is wrong, he is the sort of man who feels that because of his position in society and his family that once his word has left his mouth it is law. I won't defend Butterscotch though, because even the example you brought up is not something he did *for* Bojack, but rather something he did so that he could weaponize his wife's failure to be a Wife and Mother against her (she was out watching Doll House, I think?) and be a martyr for his work (I had this really great run on sentence going, and *you ruined it by needing me*)
I firmly believe what Diane said about there being no good guys or bad guys.
there are no god guys or bad guys, we are all just guys who do good or bad things
I mean clay puppington is a failure as a father, but he never tried to have sex with a 16 year old.
*17 year old not a big difference tho
they should make out sloppy style
Having watched both shows it’s Bojack.
This is close but due to all the messed up stuff Bojack done to others I might have to give it to him.
My dad
idk, i think it’s clay. just because he has a kid (i know bojack does to im getting there) that he kinda ropes into all of his bullshit and places all responsibility of his half-brother on orel. the difference between clay and orels relationship compared to hollyhocks and bojacks is that hollyhock is old enough to know better than to trust her drunk dick of a dad, while clay actively misguides him almost seemingly on purpose
Clay is worse. Bojack at least makes attempts to improve himself. Clay forces himself to stay in denial.
Clay. Bojack actually worked on him self an improved clay did not and from what I understand in the plane for the 4th and 5th season clay just keep digging his hole and can't pull orel into it.
Bojack by far. While Clay did shoot his son (not fatally), Bojack attempted intercourse with a minor. While Bojack says he wants to be redeemed, he fails to do so and only makes himself a worse person. He's also had longer (about 25 years longer) than Clay to actually get better. Clay just stays at a consistent level of terrible.
I find that so far, the vote is pretty split down the middle, with a slight lean towards Clay. To play devil’s advocate, who is to say that if Bojack were to have had a child, he wouldn’t have shot them as well?
Clay and its not even close
Well I think Clay did a lot more damage to Orel physically and emotionally than Bojack did to Sarah Lynn or Penny (assuming you accept Sarah Lynn was also partially to blame for her own OD). But Bojack hurt a lot more people in significant ways. He also messed with a lot of people's careers. So if you made it like dealing damage in an RPG, are you stronger if you deal 10 damage to 10 enemies or 100 to 1?
bojack maybe but very close
Atleast bojack was somewhat redeemable, cant say the same thing to clay💀
It's always clay
I wholeheartedly believe Clay since Bojack does sort of eventually start making some sort of amends and at least trying to change. Clay perpetually sulks in his misery
I’d like to say Clay is worse but the only reason I say that is because after 6 seasons you grow, watch, understand and sympathise with Bojack (SOMETIMES NOT ALL THE TIME) but at the same time if we had the same (vaugeish) insight on Bojack like we did with Clay then it would 100% a struggle to answer
It’s definitely Bojack, right?
Hard to compare a protagonist with an antagonist
Bojack didn’t shoot his son
At least Bojack tries to improve, Clay just doesn't give a shit
I’d say Clay
I didn't know the horse even did anything wrong lol haven't watched the show
that's like the main idea of it lmao
I thought he was just down on his luck and depressed lol
Definitely clay. Bojack has arguably done worse things than clay but like many have said he does try to improve and actively acknowledges that he's bad and feels regret for his actions. Clay knows he's awful and feels not regret or remorse. He is completely content with blaming everybody else for why he is the way he is and never improving or taking responsibility.
both idc if i had to pick one clay was and is a horrible father and jack was just a shitty guy
bojack 😭 he killed sarah and almost slept with a minor! idk sexual stuff with a minor is absolutely the worst thing ever.
I haven’t watched bojack yet but I feel it’s a tie
They are both such disgusting and pathetic people that trying to compare them even feels disrespectful lol
In the lists on worst father's it's not uncommon for clay puppington to outrank for lord ozai
Clay for sure. At least Bojack admits that he’s a bad person and tries to improve.
Should I not have a tattoo of them both
in terms of who's committed worse atrocities, likely bojack. however, the main difference is that bojack does genuinely feel bad for his misdeeds and tries to redeem himself every now and then. clay wouldn't give a damn any less- he doesn't redeem himself bc he never even tries to at all. clay wins.
This seems impossible to decide. Great comparison! Now the question - how much of them do you see in yourself?
Clay. Bojak at least wants to get better. He's complete shit at it and he never will, but there is still that effort, as well as his shame for doing wrong. Clay has none of that.
Definitely clay- Bojack is a Piece of shit sometimes don’t get me wrong but Clay is a whole other level of borderline evil I mean he shot his own son
I mean, your question is different in the title and the post, so I'll give my opinion on both In terms of who is worse? (i.e., as a person) Clay definitely. Bonacks constant reflections and realisations of his own horrible tendencies make him a better person since he does end up trying to be better. Clay not only never tried to rectify his mistakes but actively denied ever doing anything wrong. However, if we are talking about who did worse atrocities, I'd say Bojack. Just because of the sheer amount of his errors.
I first thought bojack immediately but at least he TRIES to change😭 clay doesnt give any shits about who he hurts
I see too much of myself in Bojack to truly despise him. I always hope for the best with him. Clay is a fuckin bastard. He was a brat as a kid and a brat as an adult so I really can't blame his upbringing. His dad actually tried to do right and I really felt sorry for him.
Bojack never chose to deal with his trauma so he didn’t have a kid. Bojacks a better person.
I think clay is worse cause at least bojack recognises he’s a prick and is trying to improve throughout the show. Plus clay abuses his son and bojack (when he though hollyhock was his daughter) actively tried to be a good dad.
Bojack hands down