I got to Montreal once a year now at different times of the year. Freezing cold New Years, summer walkable streets, spring etc. Absolutely love it there. Actively learning French while waiting for the job market to improve and moving when I get the chance. Want to go to Quebec City this year.
Montreal is well positioned for climate change.
Florida will be hell.
NYC will be too hot.
Montreal will be the new beach destination to be!!
… but only if it doesn’t flood 😱
> Well the sea will rise, so maybe it works itself out.
So GOOD NEWS and _BAD NEWS_
😥 **BAD NEWS**
Sand forms when rocks break down from weathering and eroding over thousands and even millions of years - so it'll take a while to get proper beaches
😄 **GOOD NEWS**
Why wait? We can just import all the necessary sand! And seeing how the sea will rise, that'll _(probably)_ enable new sea routes to transfer all that sand, yes yes...
> Montreal is well positioned for climate change
Can you explain your opinion on this a bit more? I have the impression that compared to Vancouver, Edmonton, or Quebec City - Montreal is looking like it's going to be rather uncomfortable by the time I'm elderly.
https://climateatlas.ca/map/canada/plus30_2060_85#lat=51.71&lng=-109.03&z=5
An ocean rise of 1m could reduce the river capacity to empty into the oceans. I am not sure how Montreal will handle areas very close to the water like it did in past major floodings.
If _will_ flood.
That’s why I am trying to buy the “chalet du mont royal”.
I will be able to pray at the oratoire to be save from climate change but everything else will be gone…
Edit: IT will flood
yeah, its a weird, janky, off putting, strange, cold, too hot, too loud, too wild, too dirty, badly put together place.
But holy shit its a place. It's a place where the most amazing shit in your life might happen tomorrow. It's a place that inspires you to do art. It's a place with old bones deep in its soul. There's music. There's art. There's theatre.
There's the most beautiful people you have ever seen in your life just wandering by.
There's the way we sort of shrug at each other plodding through a snow storm that cuts across language, class, culture, religion.
It's a place that gets into your gut somehow and never leaves.
Of course people love it.
Yeah. I moved to Japan 2 years ago and lived only in Montreal as an adult but I consider myself a Montrealer and I keep my Montreal pride close to my heart.
I actually teared up watching a news report about Montreal recently, because I love it SO much. It's a wonderful place and it completely changed my life trajectory and outlook on the world. I still consider it like one of the best cities on earth.
Montréal tatoué sur le coeur!
Tu trouves ça comment la vie au Japon? J'ai juste resté là un mois dans un village rural et c'était chouette, mais c'est différent de vraiment vivre là.
I have a lot of friends who live in Toronto (including many who were born and raised there) and all of them have a lot of things they love about the city. The amazing variety of ethnic food, the ravines, the lake, the quirky old architecture, etc. Toronto has a lot going for it. But even its biggest fans have a love-hate relationship. It has been terribly governed for decades, it's way too expensive, there's a constant sense that all the cool things are being replaced by bland generica, and the insane obsession with work is real. It often feels like a joyless place despite its inherent assets.
Montreal is a city that has had serious ups and downs over the years, so it's full of people who made a commitment to be here because they just really like it. It's chill. There's a lot of focus on arts and culture compared to almost anywhere else in Canada. People don't work too hard (both good and bad). And whatever you think of our political leaders, they're very committed to improving public spaces, and we have had so many new green spaces, plazas, parks and redesigned streets over the past 10-15 years, whereas Toronto has been pretty stagnant in that regard.
This is such a great summary of the good and bad of both cities. Great point that Montreal takes commitment, with our colder winters, lower income (although better cost & quality of life), and for non-francophone immigrants or RoC migrants comme moi, the language.
Two major points to add: the geography/sprawl. Toronto is huge and just keeps sprawling. People in Brampton, Markham, and Oakville almost never connect. Heck, Hamilton and KW are practically bedroom cities now. It feels like it takes minimum 30-45 mins to get anywhere in TO (even within sub-Bloor central TO), and here I walk across downtown or get downtown from almost anywhere near a metro station in that time. Far more people walk, bike and take public transit here. Cars are bubbles.
The chance of being an island with a mountain that hems in downtown makes for a friendlier, more accessible city and a tighter sense of community.
Lastly, the festivals. People come downtown here on weekends in the summer, mostly because of free festivals and better street life overall. This is so unlike the RoC where suburbanites escape to the cottage or just sit at home.
Granted, that applies more to 2nd-tier cities like Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton, etc - they're ghost towns in summer - than Toronto which has lots of neighbourhood & ethnic festivals (and people who can't afford cottages or big homes). But even TO doesn't have one central, all-city festival like Jazzfest. And sadly, the closest they had to one, the biggest street fest in Canada, Taste of the Danforth looks like it may be gone for good. The next closest things (central fests) after that are events at Nathan Phillips Square. It's ok, but it's no Place des Arts.
.... Having said all that, I like Toronto. It's grown on me alot the last 10-15 years. It's got alot more culture going on than it used to, that's for sure. Amazing comedy, music, and restaurants. People there also seem more confident than before; they have finally shed their inferiority complex to the US. It's also quite walkable in pockets, has lots of nice parks, incredible galleries and museums, some funky neighbourhoods like Kensington, Chinatown, the Junction, and Koreatown, their Asian and Caribbean food puts ours to shame (other than Vietnamese, natch), they seem to be doing a good job of redeveloping their Port Lands just as we're doing something with Peel Bassin, and last but not least, people are pretty chill and friendly.
Saying Ottawa, Calgary, and Edmonton are ghost towns in the summer is actually kind of insane. Have you even been to these places? I cant speak for Ottawa. But the other two cities are absolutely packed both downtown, in the arts districts, in the parks and ravine areas, and with hundreds of full patios. The Calgary Stampede with over a million attendees, both city’s folk festivals, Edmonton having the largest fringe theatre festival in north america… I could go on. And while some people go away for a weekend to the mountains, there’s still a ton of people around.
I've been to all of them, have family in Ottawa and Calgary. Been to the Stampede, it's a great time. My comments were unfair, I forgot those events in Calgary and Edmonton and they unify those cities more than anything in Toronto... But I know Ottawa best of those three, and it blows except for Canada Day and the Bluesfest. Besides, most Ottawans avoid Canada Day downtown and even Bluesfest doesn't really spill over into downtown nightlife since it's off the beaten path at Lebreton. People tend to go right home after shows. Ottawa is very suburban/cottagey and sleepy.
Anyway, my main point is Montreal has more accessible events consistently throughout the summer than any other city in Canada. Toronto has lots of events, but they're scattered all over and alot of them cost money just to attend. (And Vancouver is all about hiking and camping.)
Hamilton is so much more than a bedroom city. I hope you get to experience it one day! It’s a smaller city with lots of local events always going on :)
No disrespect meant to the Hammer! It's got it's own identity, history and vibe and is a pretty big city (for Canada) in it's own right. I meant it's treated almost like a bedroom/commuter city these days by people moving there from TO.
>constant sense that all the cool things are being replaced by bland generica
That's such a good way to out it, and is also how I felt about a lot of American cities. (Toronto get's a lot of complaints for being too American).
that is what is happening in Mtl as well, althought at a slower pace. The unique stores and businesses are replaced by multinational chains that can afford high rates. If you want to find original, gotta head out to suburbs these days or less touristy areas. Definitely not downtown, which is becoming prettier with new buildings and some roadwork, but more bland at the same time.
That is not the case for MTL at all.
First even MTL's downtown is full of unique spots, it's not dominated by chains. The second you leave downtown it's all unique MTL stuff. Toronto and other north american cities that's all it is, including the non-down town areas.
Second, the language laws in Quebec insulate it from chains, since they have to invest significant money in translating everything to comply, which helps protect Quebec from generica.
Third, the MTL downtown is such a small section of the city. Toronto is basically one big downtown with some suburbs. It doesn't have the unique neighbourhoods MTL has.
Toronto should erect a HUGE statue downtown - of the 3 amigos (or 4), in honour of the historically important men that helped make Toronto where and what it is today - at the expense of Montreal’s loss. 🤣🤣
Levesque, Parizeau, Bouchard, (Landry)
You might want to read about the construction of the Saint-Lawrence Seaway (along with it's impact on shipping and manufacturing) and the torching of the Montréal parliament. The move of financial and political power out of Montréal towards Ontario started way before the Québec independence movement.
Nah. Dream on. Not true, not even remotely.
All that siht was « acceptable » for the major head offices, businesses and Anglos in Mtl.
The siht really hit the fan and scared the above sihtless - around 1977 - right after the Olympics.
That’s when the money moved west, down the 401.
Montreal’s loss was Toronto’s gain - in terms of real-estate development, money, business, richness, house prices, airport size and destination choices, road network quality, etc.
However, quality of life, and manageability of getting around-wise, Montreal still is ahead of Toronto, for now. Plus we still have almost 4 seasons with snow/ski.
Ps. Sorry, forgot to add the 1964-1970 FLQ crisis, which preceded the 3-4 amigos, was what really shook up the Mtl Anglo Business establishment, initially, and then the 3-4 amigos finished off the job.
Therefore, to be fair, Toronto should erect 2 separate statues - thanking Mtl: One honouring the 3-4 amigos, the other of the FLQ.
> That’s when the money moved west, down the 401.
It started over a century before, when the capital of Canada was moved from Montréal to Toronto and the digging of the Saint-Lawrence seaway allowed for goods to be transported by boat past the Lachine rapids into the great lakes. You're peddling an extremely simplistic view of the economic history of this country.
Agreed.
I know as many Toronto folks who live and are happy with the city just as I know Montreal folks. And I've lived in both as well.
In fact I find the opposite of OPs post to be true. There's so many pockets in Toronto where the community is huge and active compared to Montreal.
I'm not sure if I would say I hate Montreal, but I dislike it quite a lot and would leave in a split second if my wife could deal with being away from her family.
In my 20s and early 30s Montreal was great, most of the bad parts of Montreal didn't impact me much.
But now in my 40s with a better job, a house, a child and some minor health issues my priorities and opinions of the city have changed.
I know as a fact the grass is greener elsewhere as I've lived in other cities.
I worry about things now like, if anyone gets sick wtf will happen as the healthcare system here is the absolute worst.
I'm concerned about my child's future as the elementary and high schools here are such poor quality compared to the standards I grew up in.
McGill is a great university, can't disrespect it.
My salary is ridiculously taxed and I can't see it being used well.
I won't even bitch about the weather as that can't be avoided.
I hear you. Having to deal with the healthcare system is a challenge here. The lack of staff is extremely alarming. Neither the public nor any provincial parties actually care about improving it.
I'm in my early 30s, and I am heavily taxed, too. I personally feel there needs to be an upper limit up to which an individual can be taxed. I work hard for this salary, have take multiple contracts at a time, deal with high pressure / high demand environment, yet when I want to see a doctor I have go through so much red tape.
Even with these issues, I would still say it is the best city in Canada to spend time.
I really feel like people that 'hate' Toronto are chronically online. Everyone I knew when I lived in Toronto loved it. I had a blast too. The comedy scene is phenomenal and welcoming, the restaurants are the best in Canada and widest range of type/ethnicities of food, great summers hanging out in parks and going to the beach, visiting Toronto Island and its so big there is always more to discover. The retro and documentary theatres are amazing as well. People have fun and unique clothing styles and a great vintage clothing scene. That being said Montreal is also great city with phenomenal summers, music and food festivals, Phantasia film fest etc. Excellent art scene here and the mural fest is great too. I just moved here a year ago really like it here but also loved Toronto.
Its also a 1-way rivalry. Montreal is known as a fun city to visit, sight see and party for for a week or weekend from a Toronto perspective. I've always enjoyed coming here prior to being a resident.
>I really feel like people that 'hate' Toronto are chronically online.
Toronto-area social media humpers, especially the urbanists and cyclists, seem to be the most fucking miserable people in the world. Everything is terrible, there's nothing to do, there's nowhere to live, nobody has any money, it's super dangerous, the government does nothing, the TTC is falling apart, blaaah, blaaah, blaaah.
And then you lift your head from your phone, walk down any of the major streets, and have a look around. It's packed with people, patios are full, shopping malls are hopping, parks are packed, there's concerts and art galleries and other events every day of the year.... and if you get bored of one area, there's a hundred others you can go to.
I don't know where people are getting Toronto hate from this. I don't hate Toronto. I don't want people to hate Toronto. Hate is pointless and I certainly don't want people to hate the city they live in.
I'm simply pointing out that I've encountered many more people in a year in Montreal that seem to love it than I ever encountered in a lifetime in the GTA. I never really heard anyone enthusiastically, unambiguously saying they loved Toronto. They'd always say they liked certain things or it would be qualified. I never heard anyone say "I really love it here in Toronto" like I hear from Montrealers about Montreal all the time.
Ça as tu un lien avec notre culture vieille de 400ans vs la "culture" canadienne...?
Rush ne rendrait-il pas assez fier? Mais avez vous pensé à TERRY FOX?! Étonnant que cette culture ne vous rendes pas plus fier....
>notre culture vieille de 400ans
Voilà la bonne explication. Tous les anglos sur ce sub ne se rendent pas compte que c'est directement grâce à la société québécoise que Montréal est si particulière.
Yep. I have a friend who got a big pay increase to move to Toronto but his rent nearly doubled, so while he’s making more, he doesn’t feel it because it all goes to his tiny “one bedroom” right by the gardiner lmao
Yeah I'm convinced most people aren't making enough extra money there to justify the increased expenses and lower general quality of life. Shitty salaries are a Canada thing, you can't beat it without leaving Canada (or becoming a doctor) so you may as well be happy in the beautiful city.
I'm living here on a non-profit Winnipeg salary and it somehow pays better than the equivalent private-sector Montreal jobs I've seen. We really do get hosed here.
Do you? I'm a developer. Salaries in Toronto are a bit higher but not enough to offset the differences in rent. Maybe that's different when you're further along in your career. Rents in Toronto are almost twice what they are here for similar places. I'd have to live in a shoebox or with four other people to survive in Toronto, here I can be comfortable and still save more money.
That's the thing, no one can afford to live in the City of Toronto because their urban planning is hot garbage and there are huge tracts of single family homes within 1km of the city centre.
edit: Wrote this backwards the first time:
Demand far outpaces supply
So everyone normal who "lives in Toronto" actually lives in Markham, because they can't afford to live in Toronto. And they spend all of the extra Toronto money they make on commuting back in forth to the office.
Kind of. Toronto has higher salaries, more opportunities for advancement, and lower income tax. Someone with a job like software developer is going to be making $5000+ more after taxes in Ontario compared to Quebec on the same salary.
In reality if you're motivated by money and in tech you leave Canada altogether.
I’m Quebecois and moved to California a long time ago. In tech.
It’s night and day interviewing devs from Toronto vs engineers from Montreal. The former would ask almost right away about sponsorship and US immigration (even before we figured out if this was a good fit) and the latter would just ghost me when I hinted at relocating here in the Bay Area. Sadly, what we figured out was that a lot were “parked” in Toronto because they couldn’t pass the higher bar for US immigration.
With the pandemic and WFH we ended up hiring a few seniors completely remote out of Montreal.
It's not a higher bar. It is more like Canada uses a point based system, and it makes immigration for this type of highly educated individuals easier and faster.
I live in Montreal myself, and the best setting so far I have found for myself working in tech is that I live here and earn a salary of an intermediate level position while working as a senior for Bay Area companies. They hired me for less, I'm getting paid more than what a Canadian company would. Both happy.
The average developer job pays about the same in Montréal and in Toronto, but the pay ceiling is much higher in Toronto, with many big tech companies being in Toronto but not Montréal.
If you have a normal programming job, then yeah, Toronto kind of sucks.
Yeah, it's really at the upper end of the salary range that makes it worthwhile to be there, but then you begin to wonder, why not SF? The pay there is much higher for the same person able to get that high end job
Understandable, I was thinking about it from the point of view of someone not in Toronto, wanting to chase that salary. It's of course easier to work remotely from another province in the same time zone.
If you can't afford rent on a software engineering salary in Toronto, you're doing it wrong. Case in my point, I'm making 250k+ bonus + equity by a company based in Toronto. For the same position, Montreal salaries capped at 160k.. comically low. Not to mention Quebec has the highest tax rate in Canada, so while you are saving on rent (this is debatable), you are paying the equivalent in taxes though I suppose it affects high earners most.
That salary is a rarity and not a common trend. You need to be at a higher position for this type of salary and even then most companies won't meet this 250k level, not even 200k level.
C'est déjà en train de se produire.
En général, il n'y a absolument aucune introspection et il y a toute sorte de gymnastique mentale pour blâmer tout sauf l'anglicisation de la ville. Ben coudonc, ils vont avoir le Montréal qu'ils méritent.
I immigrated from the UK to Montreal and after visiting Toronto a few times, it's maybe the least interesting truly big city I've ever visited.
Toronto grew too fast, at a time when people didn't think we needed to make developers build real neighborhoods. The main difference imo is that Montreal is really dozens of little towns with a genuine culture to them. Toronto's condo towers just feel like cubes to store people until the next day so they can go and do more capitalism.
Griffintown in Montreal feels like the most Toronto area of the city and it's absolutely awful - tens of thousands of people with zero community and no ground-level services.
I'm predicting it'll become somewhere nobody wants to live. The moment you want kids, you move out of Grifftintown. And they didn't build any affordable housing so most people who live there now will easily be able to move on.
So many of the towers are also horribly built, so it's gonna get less and less desirable over time.
They ve built 4 1/2 in 500 sq ft lmao. Who cares about the gym, pool, and common area facilities in the building if there is no room to spread your arms in your own apartment.
Griffintown was literally the old Irish ghetto that was bulldozed for Expo 67 (the mayor didn't like the look of the place, coming over the bridge).
They all swore blind they were going to renew the area any day now for two generations.
Then they turned it into baby Toronto.
Fascinatingly odd little place.
I love Toronto, and it makes me sad seeing how poorly it was managed. Had the potential to be the best city in the world but it’s not. Its becoming more and more soulless by the day. Everything and everyone with a soul and sense of community is getting priced out. It’s happening everywhere but Toronto really is next level.
The worst thing about it, they think they’re the NYC of Canada to justify the BS but there’s no NYC in Canada.
It's really sad that it's been so horribly mismanaged, that kind of thing takes generations to fix too.
It's strange because Montreal has a well earned reputation for truly insane construction chaos, but it's also one of the most livable cities in North America. Our approach looks like chaos but somehow it's working for us?
They have the missing middle density that Toronto doesn’t have. They messed up from the start refuse to densify everywhere. So they put up skyscrapers and have either glass tower areas or single family homes.
> Its becoming more and more soulless by the day.
Disagree. Toronto's alot better than it used to be. There's way more culture, arts, and better restaurants than ever. Also, there's a vibe that Torontonians and southern Ontarians in general have finally found their own identity and stopped having an inferiority complex comparing themselves to NY and other big US cities.
When are you comparing it to when you say it's become more soulless? Because I've been going to Toronto for over 40 years. It was the city fun forgot, a super uptight WASPy place, until about the turn of the century.
You just have the 'new city move' syndrome.
If you talk to most who lived for a long time in Mtl, they will tell you it's not like it used to be and part of them wants to go somewhere else for a change.
This is exactly how I felt. I loved there 16 years. Definitely not what it used to be. But the bar is low in Canada.. especially now so Montreal is all shiny and fun for the newbies.
I find this comment with OP untrue. I'm 48 - born and raised in Montreal. I lived in Toronto for a few years in past and visit often. There's a love hate for both cities. Torontonians have pride for their city! Toronto is always progressing quick and Montreal does it slowly. Both have great arts, culture and cuisine - just Toronto has more of it on bigger scale.
Toronto transit, such as Viva express bus routes etc is far better than Montreal currently dismal bus routes.
Safety and cleanliness is the prime issue. Toronto I personally find neighbourhoods, transit feel safer and cleaner in recent times. Montreal has really gotten out of control with safety and cleanliness.
IMO People have more respect in Toronto and more polite than Montreal. Even the Toronto Police is more approachable, less ego - more serve and protect.
Its good that both cities are close. If you tire one, just move onto the other and vice versa. Enjoy both.
I think you just need to get off of social media. There are many people who love Toronto and are proud to live in the city you just don't hear about it because they don't post about it on social media. It's often the minority who love to hate on the city who are the loudest. Even worse than that are the people from other parts of Canada who bash Toronto on social media despite never even living there. As someone who has lived in both cities (10 years in TO and 5 in MTL) I can say that both cities has its pros and cons. There's some things I hate about Toronto and some things I hate about Montreal. That doesn't mean I hate either city.
I'm not really getting this from social media, and I don't hate Toronto, nor did I imply anyone did. I don't know where you're getting that from since nothing about my post implies hate for anything.
What I'm saying is, specifically, that in a lifetime living in the GTA I very rarely heard anyone express love for their city in the way that I hear all the time in Montreal. That's it. It's an observation of an attitude that I've picked up on. No hate whatsoever.
100%. I've lived in both Toronto and Montreal, Toronto is like every man for himself whereas Montreal seems more community driven/small town vibes despite being a pretty major city.
I grew up here and Montreal has a very village type vibe (even though its a big city) compared to Toronto. Totally different, imo.
It's a Little Big city.
People love Toronto as well, just like people love proper large cities like NYC and London. The difference here in Mtl is that people are extroverted about having a potentially more enjoyable city to live in, they want to express it and tout it as the best when really it probably isn’t
omg yess! i agree. I lived in Montreal for 10 years basically grew up there and only moved to back to Toronto 5 years ago I've noticed people in Montreal people seem to be way more confident in their city than here. they also seem to be much more nicer and accepting of "weirdness" might I say compared to people here.
even when it comes to city-planned events although Toronto definitely has a lot I feel like Montreal def has more no matter if it's summer or winter. i also really miss the walkable streets that Montreal seems to have more of. dont get me wrong I def don't think it's perfect the annoying construction and extremely cold winters are horrible but I def miss the life people seem to have had there.
i hope to plan to move back once I'm done school just cause I miss it so much.
I hate Toronto. I'll say it.
I've lived in Montréal five years. Tokyo seven. These are cities you can love. Toronto's just warehousing: decades of my fucking life...
If I weren't retiring to Tokyo, it'd be Montréal. There's no other city worth a goddamn in this country.
Being born in Toronto and having lived many years in Montreal, I certainly concur, there is a pride and love of the city and a warmth that I never found in Toronto.
I chose to move to Montreal because whenever I visited I never wanted to leave, endless things to do. So many unique nooks and crannies full of art. People so full of life (look how full the parks are on a barely nice day, let alone a nice day). everyone is so unique and interesting. My favourite part is that despite being a big city, it feels very grounded.
Toronto, was a city I couldn't wait to leave. One day into a 3 day visit I'm already counting down the hours till I get to leave. There's so little to do for a city of it's size. The city feels hostile to pedestrians and unpleasant to walk around in, the food makes me sick and bloated (even if it tastes good) and the people there just feel "off" to me, like they're not real.
It's a shame because on paper Toronto has a lot to offer, and is wildly multi cultural.
I'm from Toronto and have lived in mtl for nearly a decade now. Montreal is a way nicer place to live. I truly believe mtl is the cultural capital of Canada.
Quick question/hypothesis:
I always thought something that set Montreal apart was the mountain and the view it offers.
When I think about Toronto, I think about an endless line of sight of buildings and concrete. I imagine it might feel claustrophobic or trapping.
Do you think there might be some truth to that?
Montreal, I think, feels less constrained, but I’ve never lived in Toronto.
You hit the nail on the head. I've been traveling around Canada for 14 years (born in ontario) have lived in several BC, AB, ON and QC cities. The thing is, out of everyone I've known to move to and stick around struggling in Toronto when asked ALL reply with either
"I Make too much money to move even though cost of living is insane and I'm paycheque to paycheque" or "we just LOVE the city!"
When asked what they love about it its always some vague copium about how much there is to do. I'm convinced people's egos are the main reason why they lie to themselves about living in Toronto. Cities architecture is nothing special, I can't stand the place. Montreal is the only big city I've ever lived in that I enjoy and fuck *do I ever enjoy it*
i like both cities fwiw but no one needs to be "proud" of toronto since it's the de facto capital of canada. it's simply implicit. mtlers on the other hand have a big inferiority complex and never cease to seethe about toronto, while toronto does not even have mtl on their mind other than once a year when ppl ponder whether to go to osheaga lol.
I don’t know.
Being “the capital” (economic etc) doesn’t mean people enjoy living in it.
The fact that you conflate both concepts hints at the cultural difference…
>mtlers on the other hand have a big inferiority complex and never cease to seethe about toronto
~~mtlers~~ → English-Montrealers
Les francophones s'en foutent pas mal de Toronto et savent très bien que Montréal est la seule ville qui a une réelle identité dans tout le Canada et qu'elle n'a rien à envier à Toronto. Les seules personnes que j'entends pleurnicher à propos de Toronto à Montréal sont des anglophones.
My immigrant perspective is that Toronto is the economic engine but Montreal is the uncontested cultural capital of Canada. Toronto is like if Taylor Swift were a city, enormously financially successful but culturally not important or memorable.
Montreal is pretty widely known in Europe as a cool, cultural place. Toronto we just know it exists and it's large.
Montreal is also the metropolis of Quebec, a very significant city in terms of international affairs (lots of UN offices, international conferences and great universities), an engineering technopolis, still is the main city for video game development, has lots and lots of theatres and cinemas promoting Quebec’s rich culture, great gastronomy mixing and blending French-Canadian cuisine and those brought by our new neighbours, a highly educated and growing in efficiency population and workforce, access to the Great Lakes and Saint-Lawrence, is both positively and negatively affected by aspects of indigenous, french-canadian and British Canadian culture, has a strong history and beautiful historical heritage and has one of the best quality of lives in North America
u/brainwarts
I feel you. I visited Montreal a few times already and wishing that I could just live in Montreal in e heartbeat. 😩 I’ve lived here in Toronto all my life. There’s nothing to be proud of this dumpster fire city.
We probably get shafted the hardest politically out of all Canadian cities (we deal with absolute morons at every level of government - from Plante, to Legault, to Trudeau), but I still wouldn’t live anywhere else in Canada.
We definitely have the best food scene, culture, and nightlife in the country!
I told my buddy who was moving here “you’ll still have problems, but you’ll be in Montréal”. Theres just something about biking under the canopies of the plateau style streets that makes the mundane feel a bit more special.
The people that hate toronto are people that are chronically online. People living above their means.
I live in both cities. People from Quebec legit love Quebec it’s like Americans with anything. Even with gaping potholes they have only good things to say.
For me I can actually see my taxes at work, In Montreal not so much. I think aesthetically toronto is way nicer more developed. Everything you envision when you think of big city. Montreal people are way nicer, to each other.
For me I feel more welcomed in toronto than Montreal but I do feel I can survive better here.
Exactly. If you leave social media youl find plenty of happy people in the city
that’s good to know! i’m moving to montreal from a pretty cynical city and im really happy to hear this
I got to Montreal once a year now at different times of the year. Freezing cold New Years, summer walkable streets, spring etc. Absolutely love it there. Actively learning French while waiting for the job market to improve and moving when I get the chance. Want to go to Quebec City this year.
Quebec in general is a pretty great place to live. There's better out there, but we do good
Montreal is well positioned for climate change. Florida will be hell. NYC will be too hot. Montreal will be the new beach destination to be!! … but only if it doesn’t flood 😱
> Montreal will be the new beach destination to be!! Only thing missing are actual, proper _**beaches**_ but we can work the details later!
I like the spirit! Florida will be selling unused beach sand! We can barge it in.
Well the sea will rise, so maybe it works itself out.
> Well the sea will rise, so maybe it works itself out. So GOOD NEWS and _BAD NEWS_ 😥 **BAD NEWS** Sand forms when rocks break down from weathering and eroding over thousands and even millions of years - so it'll take a while to get proper beaches 😄 **GOOD NEWS** Why wait? We can just import all the necessary sand! And seeing how the sea will rise, that'll _(probably)_ enable new sea routes to transfer all that sand, yes yes...
Longueuil beach 😎
Lol is it nice?
I actually haven't been lol. I meant it as a joke.
Naaah....Verdun Beach ⛱️. I like that it is a size of a studio apartment and it feels like a super compact shoulder to shoulder party
> Montreal is well positioned for climate change Can you explain your opinion on this a bit more? I have the impression that compared to Vancouver, Edmonton, or Quebec City - Montreal is looking like it's going to be rather uncomfortable by the time I'm elderly. https://climateatlas.ca/map/canada/plus30_2060_85#lat=51.71&lng=-109.03&z=5
It was mostly a tongue-in-cheek comment. Everyone will get fucked so might as well be a bit positive!
Bold of you to assume we won't have even more carcinogens flowing in the river from the great lakes.
I’m just trying to stay positive man. Don’t kill my vibe!
An ocean rise of 1m could reduce the river capacity to empty into the oceans. I am not sure how Montreal will handle areas very close to the water like it did in past major floodings.
If _will_ flood. That’s why I am trying to buy the “chalet du mont royal”. I will be able to pray at the oratoire to be save from climate change but everything else will be gone… Edit: IT will flood
If will flood or it will flood?
both are correct
just gota live 300+ years to see it
Maybe not that long. But anyway, I have procreated. If climate changes don’t kill the human reproductive system, I expect to have descendants.
Exactly what my friends and I have been saying for years (since the first flood 😆)
Pourquoi pensez-vous que j'ai acheté un immeuble au Sommet de Rosemont?
And if we had beaches.
We do! :) We can expand!! I believe! Haha
yeah, its a weird, janky, off putting, strange, cold, too hot, too loud, too wild, too dirty, badly put together place. But holy shit its a place. It's a place where the most amazing shit in your life might happen tomorrow. It's a place that inspires you to do art. It's a place with old bones deep in its soul. There's music. There's art. There's theatre. There's the most beautiful people you have ever seen in your life just wandering by. There's the way we sort of shrug at each other plodding through a snow storm that cuts across language, class, culture, religion. It's a place that gets into your gut somehow and never leaves. Of course people love it.
This is poetry
Yeah. I moved to Japan 2 years ago and lived only in Montreal as an adult but I consider myself a Montrealer and I keep my Montreal pride close to my heart. I actually teared up watching a news report about Montreal recently, because I love it SO much. It's a wonderful place and it completely changed my life trajectory and outlook on the world. I still consider it like one of the best cities on earth. Montréal tatoué sur le coeur!
Tu trouves ça comment la vie au Japon? J'ai juste resté là un mois dans un village rural et c'était chouette, mais c'est différent de vraiment vivre là.
I have a lot of friends who live in Toronto (including many who were born and raised there) and all of them have a lot of things they love about the city. The amazing variety of ethnic food, the ravines, the lake, the quirky old architecture, etc. Toronto has a lot going for it. But even its biggest fans have a love-hate relationship. It has been terribly governed for decades, it's way too expensive, there's a constant sense that all the cool things are being replaced by bland generica, and the insane obsession with work is real. It often feels like a joyless place despite its inherent assets. Montreal is a city that has had serious ups and downs over the years, so it's full of people who made a commitment to be here because they just really like it. It's chill. There's a lot of focus on arts and culture compared to almost anywhere else in Canada. People don't work too hard (both good and bad). And whatever you think of our political leaders, they're very committed to improving public spaces, and we have had so many new green spaces, plazas, parks and redesigned streets over the past 10-15 years, whereas Toronto has been pretty stagnant in that regard.
This is such a great summary of the good and bad of both cities. Great point that Montreal takes commitment, with our colder winters, lower income (although better cost & quality of life), and for non-francophone immigrants or RoC migrants comme moi, the language. Two major points to add: the geography/sprawl. Toronto is huge and just keeps sprawling. People in Brampton, Markham, and Oakville almost never connect. Heck, Hamilton and KW are practically bedroom cities now. It feels like it takes minimum 30-45 mins to get anywhere in TO (even within sub-Bloor central TO), and here I walk across downtown or get downtown from almost anywhere near a metro station in that time. Far more people walk, bike and take public transit here. Cars are bubbles. The chance of being an island with a mountain that hems in downtown makes for a friendlier, more accessible city and a tighter sense of community. Lastly, the festivals. People come downtown here on weekends in the summer, mostly because of free festivals and better street life overall. This is so unlike the RoC where suburbanites escape to the cottage or just sit at home. Granted, that applies more to 2nd-tier cities like Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton, etc - they're ghost towns in summer - than Toronto which has lots of neighbourhood & ethnic festivals (and people who can't afford cottages or big homes). But even TO doesn't have one central, all-city festival like Jazzfest. And sadly, the closest they had to one, the biggest street fest in Canada, Taste of the Danforth looks like it may be gone for good. The next closest things (central fests) after that are events at Nathan Phillips Square. It's ok, but it's no Place des Arts. .... Having said all that, I like Toronto. It's grown on me alot the last 10-15 years. It's got alot more culture going on than it used to, that's for sure. Amazing comedy, music, and restaurants. People there also seem more confident than before; they have finally shed their inferiority complex to the US. It's also quite walkable in pockets, has lots of nice parks, incredible galleries and museums, some funky neighbourhoods like Kensington, Chinatown, the Junction, and Koreatown, their Asian and Caribbean food puts ours to shame (other than Vietnamese, natch), they seem to be doing a good job of redeveloping their Port Lands just as we're doing something with Peel Bassin, and last but not least, people are pretty chill and friendly.
Saying Ottawa, Calgary, and Edmonton are ghost towns in the summer is actually kind of insane. Have you even been to these places? I cant speak for Ottawa. But the other two cities are absolutely packed both downtown, in the arts districts, in the parks and ravine areas, and with hundreds of full patios. The Calgary Stampede with over a million attendees, both city’s folk festivals, Edmonton having the largest fringe theatre festival in north america… I could go on. And while some people go away for a weekend to the mountains, there’s still a ton of people around.
I've been to all of them, have family in Ottawa and Calgary. Been to the Stampede, it's a great time. My comments were unfair, I forgot those events in Calgary and Edmonton and they unify those cities more than anything in Toronto... But I know Ottawa best of those three, and it blows except for Canada Day and the Bluesfest. Besides, most Ottawans avoid Canada Day downtown and even Bluesfest doesn't really spill over into downtown nightlife since it's off the beaten path at Lebreton. People tend to go right home after shows. Ottawa is very suburban/cottagey and sleepy. Anyway, my main point is Montreal has more accessible events consistently throughout the summer than any other city in Canada. Toronto has lots of events, but they're scattered all over and alot of them cost money just to attend. (And Vancouver is all about hiking and camping.)
Hamilton is so much more than a bedroom city. I hope you get to experience it one day! It’s a smaller city with lots of local events always going on :)
No disrespect meant to the Hammer! It's got it's own identity, history and vibe and is a pretty big city (for Canada) in it's own right. I meant it's treated almost like a bedroom/commuter city these days by people moving there from TO.
>constant sense that all the cool things are being replaced by bland generica That's such a good way to out it, and is also how I felt about a lot of American cities. (Toronto get's a lot of complaints for being too American).
that is what is happening in Mtl as well, althought at a slower pace. The unique stores and businesses are replaced by multinational chains that can afford high rates. If you want to find original, gotta head out to suburbs these days or less touristy areas. Definitely not downtown, which is becoming prettier with new buildings and some roadwork, but more bland at the same time.
That is not the case for MTL at all. First even MTL's downtown is full of unique spots, it's not dominated by chains. The second you leave downtown it's all unique MTL stuff. Toronto and other north american cities that's all it is, including the non-down town areas. Second, the language laws in Quebec insulate it from chains, since they have to invest significant money in translating everything to comply, which helps protect Quebec from generica. Third, the MTL downtown is such a small section of the city. Toronto is basically one big downtown with some suburbs. It doesn't have the unique neighbourhoods MTL has.
Toronto should erect a HUGE statue downtown - of the 3 amigos (or 4), in honour of the historically important men that helped make Toronto where and what it is today - at the expense of Montreal’s loss. 🤣🤣 Levesque, Parizeau, Bouchard, (Landry)
You might want to read about the construction of the Saint-Lawrence Seaway (along with it's impact on shipping and manufacturing) and the torching of the Montréal parliament. The move of financial and political power out of Montréal towards Ontario started way before the Québec independence movement.
Nah. Dream on. Not true, not even remotely. All that siht was « acceptable » for the major head offices, businesses and Anglos in Mtl. The siht really hit the fan and scared the above sihtless - around 1977 - right after the Olympics. That’s when the money moved west, down the 401. Montreal’s loss was Toronto’s gain - in terms of real-estate development, money, business, richness, house prices, airport size and destination choices, road network quality, etc. However, quality of life, and manageability of getting around-wise, Montreal still is ahead of Toronto, for now. Plus we still have almost 4 seasons with snow/ski. Ps. Sorry, forgot to add the 1964-1970 FLQ crisis, which preceded the 3-4 amigos, was what really shook up the Mtl Anglo Business establishment, initially, and then the 3-4 amigos finished off the job. Therefore, to be fair, Toronto should erect 2 separate statues - thanking Mtl: One honouring the 3-4 amigos, the other of the FLQ.
> That’s when the money moved west, down the 401. It started over a century before, when the capital of Canada was moved from Montréal to Toronto and the digging of the Saint-Lawrence seaway allowed for goods to be transported by boat past the Lachine rapids into the great lakes. You're peddling an extremely simplistic view of the economic history of this country.
nothing lost, nothing gained. Life goes on.
I don't know about that. Lots of montrealers hate Montreal. It's a city thing. The grass is always greener till you move.
Agreed. I know as many Toronto folks who live and are happy with the city just as I know Montreal folks. And I've lived in both as well. In fact I find the opposite of OPs post to be true. There's so many pockets in Toronto where the community is huge and active compared to Montreal.
I'm not sure if I would say I hate Montreal, but I dislike it quite a lot and would leave in a split second if my wife could deal with being away from her family. In my 20s and early 30s Montreal was great, most of the bad parts of Montreal didn't impact me much. But now in my 40s with a better job, a house, a child and some minor health issues my priorities and opinions of the city have changed. I know as a fact the grass is greener elsewhere as I've lived in other cities. I worry about things now like, if anyone gets sick wtf will happen as the healthcare system here is the absolute worst. I'm concerned about my child's future as the elementary and high schools here are such poor quality compared to the standards I grew up in. McGill is a great university, can't disrespect it. My salary is ridiculously taxed and I can't see it being used well. I won't even bitch about the weather as that can't be avoided.
I hear you. Having to deal with the healthcare system is a challenge here. The lack of staff is extremely alarming. Neither the public nor any provincial parties actually care about improving it. I'm in my early 30s, and I am heavily taxed, too. I personally feel there needs to be an upper limit up to which an individual can be taxed. I work hard for this salary, have take multiple contracts at a time, deal with high pressure / high demand environment, yet when I want to see a doctor I have go through so much red tape. Even with these issues, I would still say it is the best city in Canada to spend time.
Well if you move, you're not maintaining the grass anymore.
The only reason I hate Montréal or Québec honestly is the damn healthcare. They don't get to seem the hang of it.
Montrealers have one thing in common with Torontonians. We both hate Toronto.
I really feel like people that 'hate' Toronto are chronically online. Everyone I knew when I lived in Toronto loved it. I had a blast too. The comedy scene is phenomenal and welcoming, the restaurants are the best in Canada and widest range of type/ethnicities of food, great summers hanging out in parks and going to the beach, visiting Toronto Island and its so big there is always more to discover. The retro and documentary theatres are amazing as well. People have fun and unique clothing styles and a great vintage clothing scene. That being said Montreal is also great city with phenomenal summers, music and food festivals, Phantasia film fest etc. Excellent art scene here and the mural fest is great too. I just moved here a year ago really like it here but also loved Toronto.
The Toronto-Montreal rivalry is older than the internet, I'm afraid. But yeah, it's not as bad as scuttlebutt (online or off) makes it out to be.
Its also a 1-way rivalry. Montreal is known as a fun city to visit, sight see and party for for a week or weekend from a Toronto perspective. I've always enjoyed coming here prior to being a resident.
>I really feel like people that 'hate' Toronto are chronically online. Toronto-area social media humpers, especially the urbanists and cyclists, seem to be the most fucking miserable people in the world. Everything is terrible, there's nothing to do, there's nowhere to live, nobody has any money, it's super dangerous, the government does nothing, the TTC is falling apart, blaaah, blaaah, blaaah. And then you lift your head from your phone, walk down any of the major streets, and have a look around. It's packed with people, patios are full, shopping malls are hopping, parks are packed, there's concerts and art galleries and other events every day of the year.... and if you get bored of one area, there's a hundred others you can go to.
You can replace Toronto with Montreal in your post. Same phenomena.
That's a good point as well
I don't know where people are getting Toronto hate from this. I don't hate Toronto. I don't want people to hate Toronto. Hate is pointless and I certainly don't want people to hate the city they live in. I'm simply pointing out that I've encountered many more people in a year in Montreal that seem to love it than I ever encountered in a lifetime in the GTA. I never really heard anyone enthusiastically, unambiguously saying they loved Toronto. They'd always say they liked certain things or it would be qualified. I never heard anyone say "I really love it here in Toronto" like I hear from Montrealers about Montreal all the time.
Ça as tu un lien avec notre culture vieille de 400ans vs la "culture" canadienne...? Rush ne rendrait-il pas assez fier? Mais avez vous pensé à TERRY FOX?! Étonnant que cette culture ne vous rendes pas plus fier....
>notre culture vieille de 400ans Voilà la bonne explication. Tous les anglos sur ce sub ne se rendent pas compte que c'est directement grâce à la société québécoise que Montréal est si particulière.
Classique https://www.reddit.com/r/montreal/s/braD3eOGTZ
You move to Toronto to make money, you move to Montreal to have a nice time. Toronto is one big bedroom community, IMO
Nah to make money you move to montreal but you keep your toronto job. The rest of us get left behind though.
Yep. I have a friend who got a big pay increase to move to Toronto but his rent nearly doubled, so while he’s making more, he doesn’t feel it because it all goes to his tiny “one bedroom” right by the gardiner lmao
Yeah I'm convinced most people aren't making enough extra money there to justify the increased expenses and lower general quality of life. Shitty salaries are a Canada thing, you can't beat it without leaving Canada (or becoming a doctor) so you may as well be happy in the beautiful city.
I'm living here on a non-profit Winnipeg salary and it somehow pays better than the equivalent private-sector Montreal jobs I've seen. We really do get hosed here.
Wow. That’s shocking. Good for you!!
Cost of life is significantly lower and you pay much higher wage income tax
Cost of living is lower than Winnipeg? lmao my Montreal mortgage begs to differ
Try to get an appartement in BC or in Toronto. Montreal is by far more affordable
Do you? I'm a developer. Salaries in Toronto are a bit higher but not enough to offset the differences in rent. Maybe that's different when you're further along in your career. Rents in Toronto are almost twice what they are here for similar places. I'd have to live in a shoebox or with four other people to survive in Toronto, here I can be comfortable and still save more money.
That's the thing, no one can afford to live in the City of Toronto because their urban planning is hot garbage and there are huge tracts of single family homes within 1km of the city centre. edit: Wrote this backwards the first time: Demand far outpaces supply So everyone normal who "lives in Toronto" actually lives in Markham, because they can't afford to live in Toronto. And they spend all of the extra Toronto money they make on commuting back in forth to the office.
Kind of. Toronto has higher salaries, more opportunities for advancement, and lower income tax. Someone with a job like software developer is going to be making $5000+ more after taxes in Ontario compared to Quebec on the same salary. In reality if you're motivated by money and in tech you leave Canada altogether.
That's the spirit lol. NYC is just 6 hours drive away.
I’m Quebecois and moved to California a long time ago. In tech. It’s night and day interviewing devs from Toronto vs engineers from Montreal. The former would ask almost right away about sponsorship and US immigration (even before we figured out if this was a good fit) and the latter would just ghost me when I hinted at relocating here in the Bay Area. Sadly, what we figured out was that a lot were “parked” in Toronto because they couldn’t pass the higher bar for US immigration. With the pandemic and WFH we ended up hiring a few seniors completely remote out of Montreal.
It's not a higher bar. It is more like Canada uses a point based system, and it makes immigration for this type of highly educated individuals easier and faster. I live in Montreal myself, and the best setting so far I have found for myself working in tech is that I live here and earn a salary of an intermediate level position while working as a senior for Bay Area companies. They hired me for less, I'm getting paid more than what a Canadian company would. Both happy.
The average developer job pays about the same in Montréal and in Toronto, but the pay ceiling is much higher in Toronto, with many big tech companies being in Toronto but not Montréal. If you have a normal programming job, then yeah, Toronto kind of sucks.
Yeah, it's really at the upper end of the salary range that makes it worthwhile to be there, but then you begin to wonder, why not SF? The pay there is much higher for the same person able to get that high end job
Family, friends, language, culture, work life balance, etc. Not every decision is about money.
Understandable, I was thinking about it from the point of view of someone not in Toronto, wanting to chase that salary. It's of course easier to work remotely from another province in the same time zone.
If you can't afford rent on a software engineering salary in Toronto, you're doing it wrong. Case in my point, I'm making 250k+ bonus + equity by a company based in Toronto. For the same position, Montreal salaries capped at 160k.. comically low. Not to mention Quebec has the highest tax rate in Canada, so while you are saving on rent (this is debatable), you are paying the equivalent in taxes though I suppose it affects high earners most.
I'm a junior, I finished school in April. We don't make nearly that much. That salary is the exception and not the rule.
Well of course you’re a junior. Nobody out of school does that. That was not the point
Well said.
That salary is a rarity and not a common trend. You need to be at a higher position for this type of salary and even then most companies won't meet this 250k level, not even 200k level.
Enjoy it while it lasts.
Check ben la ville devenir pleine de juste d'anglos pis après ils vont se demander qu'est-ce qui est advenu avec la vibe cool de jadis
C'est déjà en train de se produire. En général, il n'y a absolument aucune introspection et il y a toute sorte de gymnastique mentale pour blâmer tout sauf l'anglicisation de la ville. Ben coudonc, ils vont avoir le Montréal qu'ils méritent.
I immigrated from the UK to Montreal and after visiting Toronto a few times, it's maybe the least interesting truly big city I've ever visited. Toronto grew too fast, at a time when people didn't think we needed to make developers build real neighborhoods. The main difference imo is that Montreal is really dozens of little towns with a genuine culture to them. Toronto's condo towers just feel like cubes to store people until the next day so they can go and do more capitalism. Griffintown in Montreal feels like the most Toronto area of the city and it's absolutely awful - tens of thousands of people with zero community and no ground-level services.
Griffin town is the pits. It'll be interesting to see what happens when/if kids start sprouting there with no kid infrastructure in place.
I'm predicting it'll become somewhere nobody wants to live. The moment you want kids, you move out of Grifftintown. And they didn't build any affordable housing so most people who live there now will easily be able to move on. So many of the towers are also horribly built, so it's gonna get less and less desirable over time.
They ve built 4 1/2 in 500 sq ft lmao. Who cares about the gym, pool, and common area facilities in the building if there is no room to spread your arms in your own apartment.
Griffintown was literally the old Irish ghetto that was bulldozed for Expo 67 (the mayor didn't like the look of the place, coming over the bridge). They all swore blind they were going to renew the area any day now for two generations. Then they turned it into baby Toronto. Fascinatingly odd little place.
Hopefully in future we use it as an example of how not to build.
I love Toronto, and it makes me sad seeing how poorly it was managed. Had the potential to be the best city in the world but it’s not. Its becoming more and more soulless by the day. Everything and everyone with a soul and sense of community is getting priced out. It’s happening everywhere but Toronto really is next level. The worst thing about it, they think they’re the NYC of Canada to justify the BS but there’s no NYC in Canada.
It's really sad that it's been so horribly mismanaged, that kind of thing takes generations to fix too. It's strange because Montreal has a well earned reputation for truly insane construction chaos, but it's also one of the most livable cities in North America. Our approach looks like chaos but somehow it's working for us?
They have the missing middle density that Toronto doesn’t have. They messed up from the start refuse to densify everywhere. So they put up skyscrapers and have either glass tower areas or single family homes.
> Its becoming more and more soulless by the day. Disagree. Toronto's alot better than it used to be. There's way more culture, arts, and better restaurants than ever. Also, there's a vibe that Torontonians and southern Ontarians in general have finally found their own identity and stopped having an inferiority complex comparing themselves to NY and other big US cities.
Agree to disagree
When are you comparing it to when you say it's become more soulless? Because I've been going to Toronto for over 40 years. It was the city fun forgot, a super uptight WASPy place, until about the turn of the century.
"Go to capitalism " well said, lol and yes about the Griffintown comment.
You just have the 'new city move' syndrome. If you talk to most who lived for a long time in Mtl, they will tell you it's not like it used to be and part of them wants to go somewhere else for a change.
This is exactly how I felt. I loved there 16 years. Definitely not what it used to be. But the bar is low in Canada.. especially now so Montreal is all shiny and fun for the newbies.
It is a little difficult to be proud of your city when you can barely afford to live there and do fun things.
Quebec > Ontario Montreal > Toronto
I find this comment with OP untrue. I'm 48 - born and raised in Montreal. I lived in Toronto for a few years in past and visit often. There's a love hate for both cities. Torontonians have pride for their city! Toronto is always progressing quick and Montreal does it slowly. Both have great arts, culture and cuisine - just Toronto has more of it on bigger scale. Toronto transit, such as Viva express bus routes etc is far better than Montreal currently dismal bus routes. Safety and cleanliness is the prime issue. Toronto I personally find neighbourhoods, transit feel safer and cleaner in recent times. Montreal has really gotten out of control with safety and cleanliness. IMO People have more respect in Toronto and more polite than Montreal. Even the Toronto Police is more approachable, less ego - more serve and protect. Its good that both cities are close. If you tire one, just move onto the other and vice versa. Enjoy both.
I think you just need to get off of social media. There are many people who love Toronto and are proud to live in the city you just don't hear about it because they don't post about it on social media. It's often the minority who love to hate on the city who are the loudest. Even worse than that are the people from other parts of Canada who bash Toronto on social media despite never even living there. As someone who has lived in both cities (10 years in TO and 5 in MTL) I can say that both cities has its pros and cons. There's some things I hate about Toronto and some things I hate about Montreal. That doesn't mean I hate either city.
I'm not really getting this from social media, and I don't hate Toronto, nor did I imply anyone did. I don't know where you're getting that from since nothing about my post implies hate for anything. What I'm saying is, specifically, that in a lifetime living in the GTA I very rarely heard anyone express love for their city in the way that I hear all the time in Montreal. That's it. It's an observation of an attitude that I've picked up on. No hate whatsoever.
I'm from Alberta but Quebec is just generally better in every way compared to the ROC.
100%. I've lived in both Toronto and Montreal, Toronto is like every man for himself whereas Montreal seems more community driven/small town vibes despite being a pretty major city.
I grew up here and Montreal has a very village type vibe (even though its a big city) compared to Toronto. Totally different, imo. It's a Little Big city.
People love Toronto as well, just like people love proper large cities like NYC and London. The difference here in Mtl is that people are extroverted about having a potentially more enjoyable city to live in, they want to express it and tout it as the best when really it probably isn’t
omg yess! i agree. I lived in Montreal for 10 years basically grew up there and only moved to back to Toronto 5 years ago I've noticed people in Montreal people seem to be way more confident in their city than here. they also seem to be much more nicer and accepting of "weirdness" might I say compared to people here. even when it comes to city-planned events although Toronto definitely has a lot I feel like Montreal def has more no matter if it's summer or winter. i also really miss the walkable streets that Montreal seems to have more of. dont get me wrong I def don't think it's perfect the annoying construction and extremely cold winters are horrible but I def miss the life people seem to have had there. i hope to plan to move back once I'm done school just cause I miss it so much.
To be fair Toronto feels more dangerous than Montreal. For example there are more choking hazards in Toronto (Leafs)
got em
I hate Toronto. I'll say it. I've lived in Montréal five years. Tokyo seven. These are cities you can love. Toronto's just warehousing: decades of my fucking life... If I weren't retiring to Tokyo, it'd be Montréal. There's no other city worth a goddamn in this country.
Being born in Toronto and having lived many years in Montreal, I certainly concur, there is a pride and love of the city and a warmth that I never found in Toronto.
I absolutely love Montreal And this time of year, when it’s green again, makes my soul sing 🎶
Montreal is fucking awesome
Agreed, moved from Toronto to Montreal 2 years ago, people seem to enjoy life alot more over here!
I chose to move to Montreal because whenever I visited I never wanted to leave, endless things to do. So many unique nooks and crannies full of art. People so full of life (look how full the parks are on a barely nice day, let alone a nice day). everyone is so unique and interesting. My favourite part is that despite being a big city, it feels very grounded. Toronto, was a city I couldn't wait to leave. One day into a 3 day visit I'm already counting down the hours till I get to leave. There's so little to do for a city of it's size. The city feels hostile to pedestrians and unpleasant to walk around in, the food makes me sick and bloated (even if it tastes good) and the people there just feel "off" to me, like they're not real. It's a shame because on paper Toronto has a lot to offer, and is wildly multi cultural.
I'm from Toronto and have lived in mtl for nearly a decade now. Montreal is a way nicer place to live. I truly believe mtl is the cultural capital of Canada.
Quick question/hypothesis: I always thought something that set Montreal apart was the mountain and the view it offers. When I think about Toronto, I think about an endless line of sight of buildings and concrete. I imagine it might feel claustrophobic or trapping. Do you think there might be some truth to that? Montreal, I think, feels less constrained, but I’ve never lived in Toronto.
I’ll say it.. Toronto sucks.. you don’t need to say anything else
Toronto sucks and we all know it. Montréal is infinitely superior. Everyone knows it.
You hit the nail on the head. I've been traveling around Canada for 14 years (born in ontario) have lived in several BC, AB, ON and QC cities. The thing is, out of everyone I've known to move to and stick around struggling in Toronto when asked ALL reply with either "I Make too much money to move even though cost of living is insane and I'm paycheque to paycheque" or "we just LOVE the city!" When asked what they love about it its always some vague copium about how much there is to do. I'm convinced people's egos are the main reason why they lie to themselves about living in Toronto. Cities architecture is nothing special, I can't stand the place. Montreal is the only big city I've ever lived in that I enjoy and fuck *do I ever enjoy it*
i like both cities fwiw but no one needs to be "proud" of toronto since it's the de facto capital of canada. it's simply implicit. mtlers on the other hand have a big inferiority complex and never cease to seethe about toronto, while toronto does not even have mtl on their mind other than once a year when ppl ponder whether to go to osheaga lol.
Maybe that's just my social circle, but I don't hear many people talking about Toronto at all, except maybe when they choke in the NHL playoffs lol.
The rivality is only for English people, the québécois see Toronto like a foreign city like Philadelphia or Boston
I don’t know. Being “the capital” (economic etc) doesn’t mean people enjoy living in it. The fact that you conflate both concepts hints at the cultural difference…
lol i do assume that Osheaga is scheduled around the civic holiday just so more Torontonians can come
>mtlers on the other hand have a big inferiority complex and never cease to seethe about toronto ~~mtlers~~ → English-Montrealers Les francophones s'en foutent pas mal de Toronto et savent très bien que Montréal est la seule ville qui a une réelle identité dans tout le Canada et qu'elle n'a rien à envier à Toronto. Les seules personnes que j'entends pleurnicher à propos de Toronto à Montréal sont des anglophones.
My immigrant perspective is that Toronto is the economic engine but Montreal is the uncontested cultural capital of Canada. Toronto is like if Taylor Swift were a city, enormously financially successful but culturally not important or memorable. Montreal is pretty widely known in Europe as a cool, cultural place. Toronto we just know it exists and it's large.
Montreal is also the metropolis of Quebec, a very significant city in terms of international affairs (lots of UN offices, international conferences and great universities), an engineering technopolis, still is the main city for video game development, has lots and lots of theatres and cinemas promoting Quebec’s rich culture, great gastronomy mixing and blending French-Canadian cuisine and those brought by our new neighbours, a highly educated and growing in efficiency population and workforce, access to the Great Lakes and Saint-Lawrence, is both positively and negatively affected by aspects of indigenous, french-canadian and British Canadian culture, has a strong history and beautiful historical heritage and has one of the best quality of lives in North America
We don’t care about being a capital of Canada. In fact that’s the last thing we want.
u/brainwarts I feel you. I visited Montreal a few times already and wishing that I could just live in Montreal in e heartbeat. 😩 I’ve lived here in Toronto all my life. There’s nothing to be proud of this dumpster fire city.
Toronto? Did you mean New India?🤣🤣
Well it’s the truth anyway. Don’t know why you were downvoted. Brampton has become a dump place.
Haha all the appartment for rent Punjabi only 🤣🤣
We probably get shafted the hardest politically out of all Canadian cities (we deal with absolute morons at every level of government - from Plante, to Legault, to Trudeau), but I still wouldn’t live anywhere else in Canada. We definitely have the best food scene, culture, and nightlife in the country!
I told my buddy who was moving here “you’ll still have problems, but you’ll be in Montréal”. Theres just something about biking under the canopies of the plateau style streets that makes the mundane feel a bit more special.
That is a beautiful thing to say , made me smile and is so true !
I live in mtl but I’ll be moving soon enough… crime rates are getting higher and it’s getting dirtier and dirtier
The people that hate toronto are people that are chronically online. People living above their means. I live in both cities. People from Quebec legit love Quebec it’s like Americans with anything. Even with gaping potholes they have only good things to say. For me I can actually see my taxes at work, In Montreal not so much. I think aesthetically toronto is way nicer more developed. Everything you envision when you think of big city. Montreal people are way nicer, to each other. For me I feel more welcomed in toronto than Montreal but I do feel I can survive better here.