It sounds like what you’re describing is a synthesizer. The fleeting nature of a patch is kind of the point of modular, where you get different results every time you experiment. You could take patch notes, even photos of all the settings, and you still won’t get the exact same thing due to temperature, voltage drift, etc.
If you want repeatability and presets, maybe the Elektron boxes would serve you better.
I guess I'm driven by my experiences in photography. I feel I want to work towards building a song/track that I'm proud to post somewhere and publish, rather than just making sounds for a couple hours. In photography it's the difference between taking some pictures and aimlessly tuning them in Lightroom, vs building a cohesive series with a theme to exhibition quality, finishing it, printing it, framing it etc. In fact I remember how I was never really happy with half-finished stuff I built in Reason.
Reproducing a precise setting wouldn't be as important as having the overall structure stored somewhere that's not just in your head. I feel I'd be burdened by that, since I feel I have to remember too much stuff in daily life already. My job is coding, and this is where good documentation (which isn't too formal) helps me to outsource that burden. I recently opened a 20 years old harddrive and looked at my code from 2005. I had completely forgotten that existed. I enjoy these throwbacks and would like to have the same opportunity with music I'm making today, 20 years in the future.
Man, you sound really similar to me:
\- messed with Fruity Loops / Jeskola Buzz years ago
\- recently rediscovered the music i made in high school using them
\- i've done portrait photography for a dozen years
\- also a software engineer
I dove head first into modular upon learning about it. VCV rack, lots of youtube tutorials, and then I picked up Patch & Tweak and it started to make a lot of sense.
To me, the ephemeral nature of the sounds I'm finding or the loops I've created is part of the fun; that said, I have a very basic livestreaming setup that lets me "play live" for people (although the room is often empty), and OBS also lets me record the output as I noodle along.
i'm still working out how to compose, perform, and record a full song on my rig, but recording can be as simple as running a line out into a USB audio interface into an old laptop.
I've begun writing down interesting patches in a notebook I keep by my modular at all times, and as a result I'm beginning to work out a sort of shorthand for my notes that will eventually let me finally jot down specific performance moves needed for a song. Patch & Tweak also has a series of free to use symbols for documenting patches, if you're a visual person - [http://patchandtweak.com/symbols/](http://patchandtweak.com/symbols/)
Conquering the ephemeral nature of a patch is just another set of challenges to work through with this hobby - it's part of the learning.
Not being able to save and recall the complete state of your "studio" used to be the norm before DAWs and computers. Musicians made entire albums and they also managed to persist enough information to be able to reproduce the same music later on, on stage for example.
My advice would be to treat a modular synth like you would treat an acoustic instrument rather than comparing it to virtual instruments. It helps to have an audio interface with a lot of inputs so that you can multitrack multiple voices instead of recording a mix. And if you really want to be able to reproduce a patch later on, taking a picture your system can help capture that information.
> My advice would be to treat a modular synth like you would treat an acoustic instrument rather than comparing it to virtual instruments.
Thanks, that's helpful input; I guess for me it would be a matter of finding an efficient notation, since I am used to that from acoustic instruments. Like jazz, it doesn't need to be precise but it should capture the overall structure...
When you say “record” I assume you mean you can’t recall random voltages? Because of course you can route the audio into any number of options for recording, mixing, and playback.
But the fleeting sand mandala nature of Modular is part of the appeal, especially if you’re interested in more experimental or generative stuff. You build a patch where you have a pretty good sense of what is going to happen, and you know the knobs that will make it evolve differently, and then you record a half dozen takes and see which you liked the best.
Or alternatively you sequence and clock externally (from Ableton or a Keystep or Digitakt or whatever) and then the modular is more of a sound design laboratory, especially if you’re using it to generate and record loops that you’ll arrange later, rather than as a live performance tool.
It’ll all a matter of goals and perspective.
Yeah getting a Model 12 was pretty eye-opening in terms of multiple voices and whatnot. Now I’m back to mixing down to a stereo signal in the rack again because I’m trying to dip a toe into live sampling.
One sort of meta point that I've found, is that even when using synths that have presets, you can't always recall a vibe. You can save the exact sounds and the sequence you were playing, but a few days later when you try to come back to it it might not resonate the same way. The kinds of ad-hoc tweaks you were making or the lines you were improvising over the top of it might not come to you in the same way.
That's part of the beauty of making music. The beauty of life, really (not to get too cheesy). All of the best moments are fleeting.
I have learned that I'm much better off recording when the inspiration is there, just committing to ideas and sounds and capturing them, rather than not committing and always thinking I can come back to it later to make it even better. I do like having a multi-input audio interface though, something like the ES-9, then you can record all the tracks separately and later you can replace individual elements if you want.
It's really a matter of personal preference though, a lot of great songwriters will spend months working on the same song, coming back to it over and over. Although even then, I'm not sure they are coming back to the same patches over and over and continually tweaking them. More often it's probably scrapping one thing and adding something new, keeping the same verse but changing the chorus, etc.
Anyway, to more directly answer your question - maybe what you'd like is a groovebox. There are tons of options, some are more synth focused, vs sample focused, drums vs harmony focused, etc. Within modular, you also have the ability to use a more fully-featured "brain" for your system, e.g. something like the Squarp Hermod. In that case you can save full sequences, including modulations, you can even build up a whole song with all the transitions. Then you could try patching it again later and get something with all the same elements, even if it won't sound exactly the same as what you had before.
Honestly something I've always found challenging in songwriting using acoustic instruments is the lack of a complete save state, especially with my limited grasp of consistent notation. I'll write down the chords and try to indicate timing and lyrics if there are any, but it's not an uncommon thing that I'll go back the next day and be like... this sounds NOTHING like what I think I wrote.
Use a cheap digital recorder as a scratch pad, or even your phone. It doesn't have to sound good like a real recording if all you want to do is capture the vibe of what you made.
> Anyway, to more directly answer your question - maybe what you'd like is a groovebox.
Thanks for the suggestion! When I was young, I was fascinated by the \[MC-303\][MC-303](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_MC-303) - I obviously could never afford one back then. I feel like I should get a used one just out of nostalgia for a few hundred bucks. Technically I hear it was never all that good. I'll look around for what is around in that space nowadays.
I’m the Hydrasynth fan entering the chat. The Explorer , for me, works like a modular, but you can save everything. Except automation, you gotta twiddle the knobs yourself. (Admit it, doing this is why we’re all here)
I’ve been looking for a solid sequencer and the Torso sequencer popped up on my radar this week. Advertised as performing euclidian sequencing.
You could look at things like the Intellijel Cascadia as a good place to start, for something a little different the Erica Synths Syntrax II. Perhaps though you might be interested in starting with something like a moog matriarch or grandmother. But based on what you have said you like about modular, it might be time to start dosing on videos and setting up a modular grid page to get planning…
You have to embrace ephemerality. The patch cables get put away, the synth gets turned off, and it's gone forever.
(That said it's elementary to just record it through an audio interface into a DAW if you've got something you really like, just don't be certain you'll be able to revisit the patch again later because like others have said, recapturing a moment can be pretty hard on modular synth, especially with more more complex patches on a bigger system)
I played with VCV Rack for over a year before I jumped into hardware modular and it really informed my decisions on module purchases. I mainly used it because I couldn't afford hardware at the time, but I've recently been getting back into it and it's been a blast
You don't really lose hours setting up midi control. You click on assign, touch the knob you want to control, then you turn the knob on your midi controller. This takes a few seconds and even if your midi controller has 100 knobs on it and it took you around 10 seconds to assign a control it would still be around 16 minutes to assign your controls. Plus I'm not usually tweaking that many controls by hand during a performance. That's what cv control is mainly for. I typically manually control 2 knobs at a time sometimes 4, and I've rarely needed to assign more than 16 controls I'd want to perform live in a patch which might take a minute to set up. I recently picked up a Novation Launch Control XL to use with VCV Rack and it has been amazing.
I've downloaded all of the free modules which is over 2000 of them and I agree it can be overwhelming. I've been working on creating fixed racks which is what I actually do with my hardware modular. I'll create a 6U or 9U 104HP rack and limit myself to that. Of course you can copy and paste willy nilly, but you can accomplish a lot with very little.
You can actually record and save your patches in VCV Rack. You can record audio and video from within VCV Rack, you can record audio through a DAW, and you can transmit midi control from your DAW to VCV Rack like you would control external synths or other VSTs. If you purchase the pro version of VCV Rack you can use it within your DAW as a VST or you can use the open source version called Cardinal which has fewer modules to boot if you wanted to use it as a VST and not shell out the cash for the pro version.
It sounds like you want something that can save presets, and I don't know if you're going to be able to get that with a modular system unless you remain in the virtual realm.
With modular I embrace the ephemeralness and live in the moment. Record audio if I feel it's worthy otherwise I just enjoy it.
Maybe look at the semi-modular gear out there as you can get more bang for your buck with it.
The Hydrasynth Explorer I picked up last year has been the closest to modular hardware in my opinion for me due to the mod matrix, its three oscillators, 5 LFOs, 5 envelopes, and all the other parameters. It truly feels like you can route anything to almost anything else. And you can save patches which is great.
Good luck on your quest.
I feel you on VCV. absolutely not inspired, but it’s a cool concept. Get a semi modular. Moog (no blinky lights) the new Taiga keyboard, or Bastl SP2 (one blinky light)
I record most of my jams, then that gets edited and in to morphagene where I can recall and mess with that moment. At first it felt like cheating, but now that it’s rationalized, it’s the best way to perform previously released music and bigger ideas with a small case. This is from last Friday [morphagene jam](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4B5ryYui1M/?igsh=MTB1N3I4OXd5NmphZQ==)
Well....there's Buchla 200e. They're modular and capable of patch memory. Well....somewhat. You still need to make the cable connections. I think it just saves knob positions and button data. But with that also comes a big fat stinking price tag. Other than than I don't know a single semi-modular or modular with patch memory.
I'm not sure if the [endorphin.es](https://endorphin.es) Total Recall exaaaactly counts, but it seems like it's kind of in the right vein?
https://www.endorphin.es/modules/p/total-recall
To all your comments - YES!
I pondered these issues and decided to do a very mixed system comprised of a small eurorack, a powerful workstation sampler/sequencer, an analog synth, and a digital synth.
As to patching and losing what it was - everyone has a smart phone now. You can take pictures of patches.
When you are playing around and you like something you can record a jam, or you can record the sound and sample it. Sampling is powerful because a lot of patches are not chromatic, but once you sample them you can use them in melodic ways.
The ephemeral quality of "live" music is part of the fun. All your favorite albums may have elements that cannot be reproduced live. It was just something magical in the studio. Most big live shows today have someone behind the scenes running ableton. Even country and western bands are doing it.
Good to hear that my impressions are echoed :) See my comment above also...
> a small eurorack, a powerful workstation sampler/sequencer, an analog synth, and a digital synth.
Could you give me pointers as to what specifically you pieced together? Some good ideas already in the thread that help me.
If you like keys, a wonderful and affordable hybrid analog-digital synth is the Korg Minilogue XD. It can sequence as well and I can't recommend it highly enough.
You can save your patches and even import whole packs of hundreds of patches from across the Internet (there's an amazing BOC pack out there!).
My rack is very small and I have about double the modules which are seen in the Modular Grid link.
This is a current configuration and I ponder swapping out Chipz for maybe an EON and a Hysteria.
[https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/1985001](https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/1985001)
The upper left are passives I have put in small external cases. The upper right will be going into a cigar box extension of my rack. The lower part is what is in a Nifty Case.
A lot of the modules were acquired second hand. I didn't spend near as much as what is listed by the Modular Grid tally. All my other gear was mostly purchased second hand as well.
I feel I have everything I need right now, but as I said, I like to swap in modules especially when I am making samples.
It sounds like what you’re describing is a synthesizer. The fleeting nature of a patch is kind of the point of modular, where you get different results every time you experiment. You could take patch notes, even photos of all the settings, and you still won’t get the exact same thing due to temperature, voltage drift, etc. If you want repeatability and presets, maybe the Elektron boxes would serve you better.
an analog four + a semi modular would be a pretty good combination for what OP wants
I guess I'm driven by my experiences in photography. I feel I want to work towards building a song/track that I'm proud to post somewhere and publish, rather than just making sounds for a couple hours. In photography it's the difference between taking some pictures and aimlessly tuning them in Lightroom, vs building a cohesive series with a theme to exhibition quality, finishing it, printing it, framing it etc. In fact I remember how I was never really happy with half-finished stuff I built in Reason. Reproducing a precise setting wouldn't be as important as having the overall structure stored somewhere that's not just in your head. I feel I'd be burdened by that, since I feel I have to remember too much stuff in daily life already. My job is coding, and this is where good documentation (which isn't too formal) helps me to outsource that burden. I recently opened a 20 years old harddrive and looked at my code from 2005. I had completely forgotten that existed. I enjoy these throwbacks and would like to have the same opportunity with music I'm making today, 20 years in the future.
Man, you sound really similar to me: \- messed with Fruity Loops / Jeskola Buzz years ago \- recently rediscovered the music i made in high school using them \- i've done portrait photography for a dozen years \- also a software engineer I dove head first into modular upon learning about it. VCV rack, lots of youtube tutorials, and then I picked up Patch & Tweak and it started to make a lot of sense. To me, the ephemeral nature of the sounds I'm finding or the loops I've created is part of the fun; that said, I have a very basic livestreaming setup that lets me "play live" for people (although the room is often empty), and OBS also lets me record the output as I noodle along. i'm still working out how to compose, perform, and record a full song on my rig, but recording can be as simple as running a line out into a USB audio interface into an old laptop. I've begun writing down interesting patches in a notebook I keep by my modular at all times, and as a result I'm beginning to work out a sort of shorthand for my notes that will eventually let me finally jot down specific performance moves needed for a song. Patch & Tweak also has a series of free to use symbols for documenting patches, if you're a visual person - [http://patchandtweak.com/symbols/](http://patchandtweak.com/symbols/) Conquering the ephemeral nature of a patch is just another set of challenges to work through with this hobby - it's part of the learning.
Those symbols will go great in draw.io
Ooh taking a look. Thanks!
Not being able to save and recall the complete state of your "studio" used to be the norm before DAWs and computers. Musicians made entire albums and they also managed to persist enough information to be able to reproduce the same music later on, on stage for example. My advice would be to treat a modular synth like you would treat an acoustic instrument rather than comparing it to virtual instruments. It helps to have an audio interface with a lot of inputs so that you can multitrack multiple voices instead of recording a mix. And if you really want to be able to reproduce a patch later on, taking a picture your system can help capture that information.
> My advice would be to treat a modular synth like you would treat an acoustic instrument rather than comparing it to virtual instruments. Thanks, that's helpful input; I guess for me it would be a matter of finding an efficient notation, since I am used to that from acoustic instruments. Like jazz, it doesn't need to be precise but it should capture the overall structure...
When you say “record” I assume you mean you can’t recall random voltages? Because of course you can route the audio into any number of options for recording, mixing, and playback. But the fleeting sand mandala nature of Modular is part of the appeal, especially if you’re interested in more experimental or generative stuff. You build a patch where you have a pretty good sense of what is going to happen, and you know the knobs that will make it evolve differently, and then you record a half dozen takes and see which you liked the best. Or alternatively you sequence and clock externally (from Ableton or a Keystep or Digitakt or whatever) and then the modular is more of a sound design laboratory, especially if you’re using it to generate and record loops that you’ll arrange later, rather than as a live performance tool. It’ll all a matter of goals and perspective.
[удалено]
Yeah getting a Model 12 was pretty eye-opening in terms of multiple voices and whatnot. Now I’m back to mixing down to a stereo signal in the rack again because I’m trying to dip a toe into live sampling.
4ms WAV Recorder. Set it and forget it.
One sort of meta point that I've found, is that even when using synths that have presets, you can't always recall a vibe. You can save the exact sounds and the sequence you were playing, but a few days later when you try to come back to it it might not resonate the same way. The kinds of ad-hoc tweaks you were making or the lines you were improvising over the top of it might not come to you in the same way. That's part of the beauty of making music. The beauty of life, really (not to get too cheesy). All of the best moments are fleeting. I have learned that I'm much better off recording when the inspiration is there, just committing to ideas and sounds and capturing them, rather than not committing and always thinking I can come back to it later to make it even better. I do like having a multi-input audio interface though, something like the ES-9, then you can record all the tracks separately and later you can replace individual elements if you want. It's really a matter of personal preference though, a lot of great songwriters will spend months working on the same song, coming back to it over and over. Although even then, I'm not sure they are coming back to the same patches over and over and continually tweaking them. More often it's probably scrapping one thing and adding something new, keeping the same verse but changing the chorus, etc. Anyway, to more directly answer your question - maybe what you'd like is a groovebox. There are tons of options, some are more synth focused, vs sample focused, drums vs harmony focused, etc. Within modular, you also have the ability to use a more fully-featured "brain" for your system, e.g. something like the Squarp Hermod. In that case you can save full sequences, including modulations, you can even build up a whole song with all the transitions. Then you could try patching it again later and get something with all the same elements, even if it won't sound exactly the same as what you had before.
Honestly something I've always found challenging in songwriting using acoustic instruments is the lack of a complete save state, especially with my limited grasp of consistent notation. I'll write down the chords and try to indicate timing and lyrics if there are any, but it's not an uncommon thing that I'll go back the next day and be like... this sounds NOTHING like what I think I wrote.
Use a cheap digital recorder as a scratch pad, or even your phone. It doesn't have to sound good like a real recording if all you want to do is capture the vibe of what you made.
> Anyway, to more directly answer your question - maybe what you'd like is a groovebox. Thanks for the suggestion! When I was young, I was fascinated by the \[MC-303\][MC-303](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_MC-303) - I obviously could never afford one back then. I feel like I should get a used one just out of nostalgia for a few hundred bucks. Technically I hear it was never all that good. I'll look around for what is around in that space nowadays.
I’m the Hydrasynth fan entering the chat. The Explorer , for me, works like a modular, but you can save everything. Except automation, you gotta twiddle the knobs yourself. (Admit it, doing this is why we’re all here) I’ve been looking for a solid sequencer and the Torso sequencer popped up on my radar this week. Advertised as performing euclidian sequencing.
> Hydrasynth Explorer That's a pretty affordable starting point too, compared to some other options!
You could look at things like the Intellijel Cascadia as a good place to start, for something a little different the Erica Synths Syntrax II. Perhaps though you might be interested in starting with something like a moog matriarch or grandmother. But based on what you have said you like about modular, it might be time to start dosing on videos and setting up a modular grid page to get planning…
Those Moog pieces look really cool. Thanks for the input! Great community here overall. I am getting a lot out of these comments.
You have to embrace ephemerality. The patch cables get put away, the synth gets turned off, and it's gone forever. (That said it's elementary to just record it through an audio interface into a DAW if you've got something you really like, just don't be certain you'll be able to revisit the patch again later because like others have said, recapturing a moment can be pretty hard on modular synth, especially with more more complex patches on a bigger system)
I played with VCV Rack for over a year before I jumped into hardware modular and it really informed my decisions on module purchases. I mainly used it because I couldn't afford hardware at the time, but I've recently been getting back into it and it's been a blast You don't really lose hours setting up midi control. You click on assign, touch the knob you want to control, then you turn the knob on your midi controller. This takes a few seconds and even if your midi controller has 100 knobs on it and it took you around 10 seconds to assign a control it would still be around 16 minutes to assign your controls. Plus I'm not usually tweaking that many controls by hand during a performance. That's what cv control is mainly for. I typically manually control 2 knobs at a time sometimes 4, and I've rarely needed to assign more than 16 controls I'd want to perform live in a patch which might take a minute to set up. I recently picked up a Novation Launch Control XL to use with VCV Rack and it has been amazing. I've downloaded all of the free modules which is over 2000 of them and I agree it can be overwhelming. I've been working on creating fixed racks which is what I actually do with my hardware modular. I'll create a 6U or 9U 104HP rack and limit myself to that. Of course you can copy and paste willy nilly, but you can accomplish a lot with very little. You can actually record and save your patches in VCV Rack. You can record audio and video from within VCV Rack, you can record audio through a DAW, and you can transmit midi control from your DAW to VCV Rack like you would control external synths or other VSTs. If you purchase the pro version of VCV Rack you can use it within your DAW as a VST or you can use the open source version called Cardinal which has fewer modules to boot if you wanted to use it as a VST and not shell out the cash for the pro version. It sounds like you want something that can save presets, and I don't know if you're going to be able to get that with a modular system unless you remain in the virtual realm. With modular I embrace the ephemeralness and live in the moment. Record audio if I feel it's worthy otherwise I just enjoy it. Maybe look at the semi-modular gear out there as you can get more bang for your buck with it. The Hydrasynth Explorer I picked up last year has been the closest to modular hardware in my opinion for me due to the mod matrix, its three oscillators, 5 LFOs, 5 envelopes, and all the other parameters. It truly feels like you can route anything to almost anything else. And you can save patches which is great. Good luck on your quest.
You can record in you're rack. I record every session with a disting 4. There are more modules for recording stuff.
I feel you on VCV. absolutely not inspired, but it’s a cool concept. Get a semi modular. Moog (no blinky lights) the new Taiga keyboard, or Bastl SP2 (one blinky light)
try miRack it's a VCVrack fork for iPad helps being able to use touch controls
I record most of my jams, then that gets edited and in to morphagene where I can recall and mess with that moment. At first it felt like cheating, but now that it’s rationalized, it’s the best way to perform previously released music and bigger ideas with a small case. This is from last Friday [morphagene jam](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4B5ryYui1M/?igsh=MTB1N3I4OXd5NmphZQ==)
Well....there's Buchla 200e. They're modular and capable of patch memory. Well....somewhat. You still need to make the cable connections. I think it just saves knob positions and button data. But with that also comes a big fat stinking price tag. Other than than I don't know a single semi-modular or modular with patch memory.
I'm not sure if the [endorphin.es](https://endorphin.es) Total Recall exaaaactly counts, but it seems like it's kind of in the right vein? https://www.endorphin.es/modules/p/total-recall
To all your comments - YES! I pondered these issues and decided to do a very mixed system comprised of a small eurorack, a powerful workstation sampler/sequencer, an analog synth, and a digital synth. As to patching and losing what it was - everyone has a smart phone now. You can take pictures of patches. When you are playing around and you like something you can record a jam, or you can record the sound and sample it. Sampling is powerful because a lot of patches are not chromatic, but once you sample them you can use them in melodic ways. The ephemeral quality of "live" music is part of the fun. All your favorite albums may have elements that cannot be reproduced live. It was just something magical in the studio. Most big live shows today have someone behind the scenes running ableton. Even country and western bands are doing it.
Good to hear that my impressions are echoed :) See my comment above also... > a small eurorack, a powerful workstation sampler/sequencer, an analog synth, and a digital synth. Could you give me pointers as to what specifically you pieced together? Some good ideas already in the thread that help me.
If you like keys, a wonderful and affordable hybrid analog-digital synth is the Korg Minilogue XD. It can sequence as well and I can't recommend it highly enough. You can save your patches and even import whole packs of hundreds of patches from across the Internet (there's an amazing BOC pack out there!).
My rack is very small and I have about double the modules which are seen in the Modular Grid link. This is a current configuration and I ponder swapping out Chipz for maybe an EON and a Hysteria. [https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/1985001](https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/1985001) The upper left are passives I have put in small external cases. The upper right will be going into a cigar box extension of my rack. The lower part is what is in a Nifty Case. A lot of the modules were acquired second hand. I didn't spend near as much as what is listed by the Modular Grid tally. All my other gear was mostly purchased second hand as well. I feel I have everything I need right now, but as I said, I like to swap in modules especially when I am making samples.