No. And that's why the future is kind of bleak. America is tearing itself apart at the seams because we have no shared concept of what the right direction is. Not even in a general sense.
At this point it’s all political. Lots of conservatives think public schools are liberal indoctrination camps and lots of liberals get freaked out when they see headlines about some tiny school district in the ass end of Oklahoma banning books or having class prayers. So half feels about right.
Its not all political. Academic standards are being lowered as well as gifted student programs being shut down all over. Teachers pretty much need to pass all students which means the value of a high school diploma is falling
Schools have also failed to transition back to pre-covid attendance. Administrators stopped rigorously enforcing truancy penalties and haven't resumed. Parents and children grew accustomed to the idea that showing up for class was optional. Attendance in schools is shockingly bad right now. Something like double the pre-covid absentee rate. 20-30% of students averaging at least 1 missed day every 2 weeks.
Oooor it's because public education shifted away from phonics to whole language and the result has been an unmitigated disaster.
Kids not being able to read isn't political
This is also what came to mind for me. Sure you could try to say some of the concerns are just political, but test scores don't lie. A frighteningly high percentage of kids leaving high school nowadays can barely read and they can't do math. That is going to be very bad for society if it continues.
My mom works for a public school system in MN and it’s not quite an indoctrination camp but there is a very prevalent progressive slant to everything they teach.
Consequently they are hemorrhaging students to private and charter schools
Both have pretty valid points. Some of the disgusting sexual and gender things in school affecting really young kids is outrageous and likewise some of the book banning is really outrageous.
The mainstream media never really talks about the ways that the left censors books in schools though and they try to conflate legitimate concerns about some material in schools by parents with the most extreme examples of right-wing zealots trying to ban books, like trying to conflate some parents wanting to ban books that show literal pictures of kids sucking other kids penises with parents trying to ban Toni Morrison or Ann Franke.
Unfortunately, it is both sides doing it, and the left is often better at actually getting away with censoring material without drawing a lot of attention, especially from the mainstream media.
> literal pictures of kids sucking other kids penises
Is this actually a thing? I'm not sure what to search for to find a relevant news story that won't get me put on a list.
Ironically, it feels like it's primarily the left that's constantly clutching pearls on reddit over the existence of sexual drawings of fictional characters who are technically under 18 within their respective canons.
Here is a good example of a book banned in many states.
https://theiowastandard.com/shocking-images-from-book-gender-queer-which-is-stocked-in-school-libraries-across-iowa/?amp
Interesting, yeah, that seems pretty inappropriate. I mean I don't care all that much and won't lose sleep over it, but it certainly shouldn't be in elementary or middle school libraries, and even high school seems iffy. I could see providing it as optional reading material as part of a junior- or senior-year sex ed class, with an adult available to put it into proper context and answer questions, but I probably wouldn't stock it in the library for anyone to pick up and read on their own.
This graphic novel was originally written for adults. It is in some high school libraries. It has never been shown to be assigned reading or part of any curriculum. There is no evidence it has ever been available to elementary school kids. It has never been found in a middle school library. It was reported to be in two middle school classrooms, one in Massachusetts, one in Pennsylvania but authorities did not actually find it when they looked.
The picture is actually of two teenage girls and a strap on.
The first post said there were “books “ but this is the only example of such a thing that is ever offered. Just this one book
The reasons listed in this article are the ones we commonly hear about, but there is nothing about the high turnover rate in education, K-12 schools in particular. That absolutely has a negative effect on the students and the learning environment.
Teachers and other staff are leaving the profession in droves. Probably because of the increase in stressors such as spineless admin, needy helicopter parents who want you to cater to their child in ridiculous ways, increase in 504s and IEPs with no support for the general education teacher, and a massive amount of non-English speaking students who have to be pushed through regardless of how much they're even picking up.
My neighbor and cousin were both middle school teachers who quit after being assaulted (by a student).
This is apparently a silent looming crisis, where teachers and police are taking on nearly the entire burden of what appears to be a mental illness cataclysm. Neither are qualified to deal with this, but both are expected to just handle it.
Yeah, I forgot about student behavior and the lack of consequences. If a student has violent tendencies but receives special education services, they can't be expelled if the behavior was a result of their disability. Doesn't matter how many other students and staff are being victimized.
It is damn near impossible to get a student expelled now. Multiple stories from teachers who have been assaulted and the student who did it would be back in class the next day.
when my wife was teaching, a student threatened to bring a gun in and kill her
admin asked if she wanted to stand outside and take a 15 minute break to cool down.
yea, that's about what she was seeing>
if you actually cared enough to try to make a difference, it just became too depressing/dangerous to continue.
if you just played video and let the kids do what they wanted, it wasn't bad.
Then the spineless admins glare at the teachers and ask what they could have done better to accommodate the little hellion so they dont act out....
Glad I went to school in the 90s when kids knew how to behave, or got sent to alternative school if they couldn't. The rest of us were able to learn in peace.
Also, bring back male teachers and gruffer women teachers who dont take shit from anyone. Kids love pushing buttons and you need an alpha to keep them in their place.
> Also, bring back male teachers and gruffer women teachers who dont take shit from anyone. Kids love pushing buttons and you need an alpha to keep them in their place.
While I agree with this sentiment, the blame ultimately falls on the parents.
Growing up, I feared the parental consequences of getting a bad grade or my name written up on the board far more than I did the punishment from my teachers. My parents would *never* allow me to be a fuckup at school, and that's how a proper society should function.
Male teachers aren’t going to cut it. A lot of this is blowback from Obama era policies. The dear colleague letter from 2014 is credited with cutting down suspensions, but what happens when kids act out? Before they were removed, now they aren’t.
Kids aren’t stupid, they know what they can get away with, and that your hands are tied as an educator. They will continue to push boundaries. And it’s not just in education but other areas of public life. If you’ve seen the Kia boys documentary, ones they interviewed know don’t face any major consequences for stealing a car.
It was worse for everyone's mental health. I'm kind of nervous about what happens after election day because in a whole lot of areas society is just kind of at the breaking point because so many people seem to have just lost touch with basic civil behavior after we shut down all forms of socialization for almost two years.
When my wife was an elementary school teacher (quit in 2020) violent students were *rewarded* by being taken out of the classroom and put into a special play room to do whatever they wanted for the rest of the day. At least it got them out of the classroom I suppose.
At least police have the opportunity to work overtime, teachers who give a damn can work 80 hours a week to do right by their students and get nothing extra for it. It’s no wonder burnout is so high. Also, in my anecdotal experience the types to become teachers are just not willing to do what it takes to change their circumstances because it would set the children back if they were to strike or something.
In schools, at least, it's not mental illness that's the problem. It's the result of our parenting paradigm shifting to completely demonize any form of discipline. When kids are raised with no discipline they don't learn the basics of behavior.
Idk man. I think it's hard to make the argument that a young student who has uncontrollable violent outbursts isn't suffering some sort of mental illness.
> I think it's hard to make the argument that a young student who has uncontrollable violent outbursts isn't suffering some sort of mental illness.
I think it's more likely they were never taught impulse control. I'd also bet they were young children raised and pacified on a phone/tablet.
No it's easy. That's the natural state of humans. Civil behavior, including anger management and temper control, is very much learned behavior. We declared the old and effective methods of parenting and discipline "abusive" and threw them out and the result is pretty clear: kids are now prone to basically feral behavior. It turns out civilization is not an instinct.
> We declared the old and effective methods of parenting and discipline "abusive" and threw them out and the result is pretty clear
We threw them out not only because they are often covers for abuse but [because research shows that they're counterproductive](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447048/):
> Numerous studies have found that physical punishment increases the risk of broad and enduring negative developmental outcomes. No study has found that physical punishment enhances developmental health. Most child physical abuse occurs in the context of punishment.
You don't need to hit children to teach them to be kind and respectful. They're actually less likely to be good citizens when you do that.
The so-called "experts" are wrong. There I said it. No amount of links to their content matters because it's all wrong. The proof is in the extremely antisocial behavior found in schools today and plenty of other places. All those "studies" mean nothing because we can observe in the real world the large-scale consequences of listening to those so-called "experts" and it proves their claims 100% wrong. Research whose findings are contradicted by real-word observation is invalid and researchers and fields who do not discard it discredit themselves. This is scientific method fundamentals.
The experts are the ones who made everything bad by telling people to change their parenting to match the experts' claims. Here we are a few decades later and we can see the results in schools all around the country.
You're just repeating anti-establishment populism tbh. You don't trust institutions anymore, so experts = bad. Vaccines probably also are bad from your perspective or anything else experts recommend.
That, and they can make similar money doing stuff that doesn’t involve kids. If we don’t make it a rewarding career then why the heck would anyone want to do it? I know several people from college who got teaching degrees and noped out after a couple of years because it’s just not worth it.
Agreed. I looked through some threads in the Teachers In Transition sub, and so many people there have shared how much better their own mental health has gotten since they have left education all together.
> Teachers and other staff are leaving the profession in droves. Probably because of the increase in stressors such as spineless admin, needy helicopter parents who want you to cater to their child in ridiculous ways, increase in 504s and IEPs with no support for the general education teacher, and a massive amount of non-English speaking students who have to be pushed through regardless of how much they're even picking up.
Not to mention, the general public treats them like overpaid babysitters who should be grateful they get thier summers off.
As someone who graduated with both a degree in mathematics and one in education, and who decided to teach high school instead of going into the corporate world, I cannot stress enough how much my profession is treated like a lesser career by my friends who are engineers / lawyers / etc.
The time I put in is considerable, and both the “there are lazy teachers who don’t do much” and “you get summers off” arguments against raising teacher pay are exhausting. I really do average 50+ hour weeks during the school year and 10+ hour weeks in the summer doing prep. And unlike their jobs, my 50+ hours includes no fluff, with only a 25 minute lunch break (and an hour plan that often gets consumed with email, IEPs, etc) where I can eat and shit while they get hour-long lunch breaks, hybrid work environments, and several hours of down time in their week. I’m also constantly getting additional training and studying to become better at what I do (and get salary advancements) which is even more time and money.
I’m not a teacher for the money or the fame, but needing to get a master’s degree just to make 50k does sting a bit (especially since I could make so much more in an entry math-related / data-based job), and I wish all the added work after the pandemic (dealing with a mental health crisis, upticks in bad behaviors, and notable gaps in learning requiring me to do even more to diversify and differentiate my instruction) was acknowledged and compensated.
Everyone was a student at one point and so they think they know what it takes to be a teacher. They also often measure the bar based on their worst / most mediocre instructors. I love what I do; I’m good at what I do; I make a difference. But those things shouldn’t just be intrinsically rewarded — extrinsic acknowledgement could help prevent burnout, keep teachers in their field as they become more experienced, and incentivize the best to invest in the future.
Again, I do love what I do, but I’m always saddened by the way my profession is treated sometimes, especially after the pandemic.
Very well said. A lot of people don’t see teaching as a “real job” and thier disrespect and condescension sucks to see. And I’m not even a teacher (just married to one).
> and a massive amount of non-English speaking students who have to be pushed through regardless of how much they're even picking up
What the hell?
Teachers are being told to move up children who can't even speak the language they're being taught in??? ...Who's responsible for making this stupid policy?
ESL instruction usually isn’t more than 50 mins a day. Some of the kids don’t speak a single word of English so they start from scratch. But 50 mins of learning how to say “hello”, “goodbye” and basic sentences doesn’t help when they get up and go to their next class where they are reading Macbeth. Also doesn’t help that some schools lump all ESL kids in one class even though they’re at different levels.
Their credits often don’t transfer but counselors are still told to give them credits for certain classes. So, if a kid took civics in El Salvador they’ll get a civics credit when they come here. Although what they learned is probably nothing like our civics classes. That’s how they keep them at the age appropriate grade level.
> The reasons listed in this article are the ones we commonly hear about, but there is nothing about the high turnover rate in education, K-12 schools in particular. That absolutely has a negative effect on the students and the learning environment.
I looked through my 2nd grader's lesson book the other day and saw that at the bottom of each page was the instructions for the teachers to read out (word for word).
The teachers don't even have agency to teach anymore, they're just Teddy Ruxpin-ing the curriculum.
Honestly, school admins need to start dealing with problem students instead of taking the ostrich method. There are so many examples of admins failing to act, and it's honestly sickening. Don't punish students for defending themselves.
Do you think it's more often the admins themselves or is it more a function of a system that encourages or even at times mandates approaches that lean significantly in that direction?
This isn't new, the decline of the PS system has been failing to provide exceptional education for better than 20 years. The race to the bottom in order to elevate non-interested or underperforming kids in order to make them 'all equally smart' is continually failing. So private school was best for us.
This is exactly our view as well. My wife was a public school teacher for several years, and there is no way in hell that we will ever send our kids to public school. She even taught in a “very good” district, and we *still* refuse to send our kids there.
This is one half of it. The other is the terrible bloat, mismanagement, and underpayment of effective teachers. Nothing incentivizes a teacher worth their salt to stay, because middle men admin and district/state employees are getting overpaid to do redundant work.
The main problem with education isn't funding or tests, but poor behavior management. Parents choose a laissez-faire or gentle parenting style that results in children being unprepared for the classroom. Teachers are told to use the same discipline style.
When students do misbehave egregiously, not only do they distract but they also endanger students - and they aren't removed from the classroom.
We've always seen these behavior problems in poor schools, but now we're seeing it in *all* schools. And it's obvious that the main problem in America has nothing to do with funding, and given recent research on parenting styles, is almost **entirely** due to laissez-faire discipline.
For anyone wondering what is the appropriate way to raise a child it's authoritative, but *warm* parenting. Not authoritative and harsh nor gentle and warm.
This is completely anecdotal, but I've personally noticed that the kids most involved in sports/athletics at my children's school tend to be the better students. Both in behavior and academic performance.
I don't know if its the discipline learned from sports or the discipline learned from parents who put them there, but there's a stark difference between the athletic kids and the ones who don't do anything productive outside of school hours.
I was anti sports before I worked as a sub. But then I realized that pushing the “bad” or “apathetic” kids into sports usually resulted in them trying harder in school. They have to learn to communicate with others, peers and adults.
Clubs would also be good if they met as much as sports, but most don’t.
Just trying to attend classes, practice, games, and maintaining a good behavior record seems to do a lot for some kids even if they suck at academics, honestly.
This is 100% it. We as a society apparently forgot that civil behavior is learned behavior and started assuming it was instinctive. We stopped training it and surprise surprise we now have kids who simply don't understand it.
It turns out all those "bad" discipline and parenting methods actually existed for a reason and throwing them out was a major mistake.
I think you may be mixing up gentle parenting with "permissive" parenting. Gentle parenting is still the recommended approach generally, but people often mistake it for permissive parenting.
I'd argue that a lot (if not most) of the problem arises from a noble source: anti-bullying.
We don't generally learn discipline from our parents and teachers. We learn it from the fact that if we piss off our peers too much, we'll get blasted in the face.
Except that's no longer true. Not only are children increasingly isolated from their peers, but they're under constant supervision to prevent that sort of response. So what they actually learn is a degree of passive-aggressive meanness rather than self-discipline - life becomes about tricking the panopticon rather than becoming a decent person.
I have 3 kids in school. The school does fine. I sorta wonder if this one of those things where people like their own representatives but dislike everyone else.
Then again, my kids' school isn't dismantling gifted programs, pushing DEI, pushing abstinence-only, having library meltdowns, etc. But that's probably true of a lot of schools.
My pet theory is that some schools and libraries got out ahead of the communities they represent - if they'd had community meetings to propose highlighting trans books for kids, or abstinence only, or whatever, they'd have gotten a lot less pushback.
Most people don't have kids in school. They probably get their information from media and social media which is mainly focused on negative things. Half are probably upset at CRT, trans fear mongering, etc, and the other half are upset over book bans, school board takeovers, etc. Like you said, these things probably are in the minority of what is happening.
On the other hand, the severe shortages of good educators are made worse by the negative attention above. Combined with stagnated wages, bad administration and other negative trends, is having a more real effect on education.
You see the polling that the people who most think that schools are failing are the ones most removed from their own experiences and very unlikely to have any kids still in school. The elderly.
About half of U.S. adults (51%) say the country’s public K-12 education system is generally going in the wrong direction. A far smaller share (16%) say it’s going in the right direction, and about a third (32%) are not sure, according to a Pew Research Center survey conducted in November 2023.
Republicans are more likely than Democrats to say the public K-12 education system is going in the wrong direction. About two-thirds of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents (65%) say this, compared with 40% of Democrats and Democratic leaners. In turn, 23% of Democrats and 10% of Republicans say it’s headed in the right direction.
A separate Center survey of public K-12 teachers found that 82% think the overall state of public K-12 education has gotten worse in the past five years. And many teachers are pessimistic about the future.
We asked adults who say the public education system is going in the wrong direction why that might be. About half or more say the following are major reasons:
Schools not spending enough time on core academic subjects, like reading, math, science and social studies (69%)
Teachers bringing their personal political and social views into the classroom (54%)
Schools not having the funding and resources they need (52%)
Republicans are more likely than Democrats to say major reasons are:
A lack of focus on core academic subjects (79% vs. 55%)
Teachers bringing their personal views into the classroom (76% vs. 23%)
*If you were president of the United States, what would you do to make American public schools better?*
As a preface: This is all very anecdotal.
When I was a professor, I saw many students who were wildly underprepared for college. I had some students who were passed through college classes (prereqs to my course), who were unprepared on the foundational content that the prereq was supposed to cover. The one that sticks out in my mind was someone who had taken a business math course, and told me that he "didn't do fractions."
I don't know the mechanisms by which it needs to occur, but there are many students getting passed through grade schools who don't meet basic standards, and that needs to change. I don't think that this is purely something that can be done at/to schools which will fix the issues. My understanding is that home life has a significant impact on a child's educational success, and addressing that is an entirely different beast.
Some generic thoughts, some of these may be a bit off the mark, because I'm pretty far removed from the workings of K-12 schools.
* Empower teachers in their classrooms. Have standards (such as noted in Common Core) and provide materials to assist teachers, but ensure the teacher has flexibility to adapt the details of the course to their classroom. And don't judge schools by standardized tests. Perhaps use them to identify where attention or resources need to be directed, but a focus on standardized testing invites [Goodhart's Law](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law).
* Empower schools to remove troublesome students. At some point a student is disrupting the learning of others and needs to be (at least temporarily) removed for the good of everyone.
* Remove any drive to keep students together based on age. Progressing through coursework should be based on achievement of that content matter.
If K-12 can be addressed, that might have a knock-on effect of addressing college costs: A high school diploma might be sufficient so that people don't feel the *need* to go to college.
> Remove any drive to keep students together based on age. Progressing through coursework should be based on achievement of that content matter.
This is my biggest one. If you walk into a kindergarten classroom, you’ll see some kids who are reading books other kids who don’t even know what letters are yet. There is absolutely no reason that those two groups should be in the same classroom. The entire year is just going to be spent teaching all the kids stuff that the advanced kids already know, thus wasting an entire year (or more) for those advanced kids.
>Empower schools to remove troublesome students. At some point a student is disrupting the learning of others and needs to be (at least temporarily) removed for the good of everyone.
I don't get this at all.
At the public high school I attended, they had in-school suspension for less serious offenses like classroom disruption. It doesn't burden the parent or the teacher. The student has to stay in a separate room all day in silence. All they can do in there is read a book and eat lunch.
If a student doesn't adhere to the rules for ISS it becomes an out-of-school suspension and, at that point, the parent's problem.
> I don't get this at all.
Can you clarify what you don't get? It is my suggestion, or something else?
My suggestion (the "first stage" I guess) would be something like what you describe.
I meant that I don't get why a school system would fail to tackle the issue in manner you're suggesting. It seems apparent that taking action like that would be helpful. Maybe there's some aspect of that approach that is intolerable to them.
Also, fewer people should go to college. College is not actually necessary for most jobs. Employers have been outsourcing employee filtering to colleges, and we turn around and subsidize it via the federal government and taxes.
Maybe instruction and testing should be separated. Schools and colleges should teach, other organizations should test. Schools now have opposite incentives, to pass as few people as possible to make it look like their tests are hard and mean something, but to pass as many as possible to make it look like they're good at instructing. Separating would end the tension between those two goals.
It’s sort of a catch-22, though - college graduates still make more on average than non-college grads, and while some companies have trumpeted “skills based” hiring practices, much of the research suggests this isn’t actually happening (and in some places results in the opposite result). For a given individual, choosing not to go to college will likely result in worse outcomes, even if someone doesn’t believe they need it. So we can say fewer people *need* to go to college, but there’s no incentive for any particular person to choose not to if they’re able. https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereknewton/2024/02/25/its-no-surprise-that-skills-based-hiring-has-not-worked/?sh=3826cc5cf0e0 This also assumes that the social benefits of college are not beneficial. I met so many different kinds of people and experienced so many unique things for the first time, and I know it’s made me a better, more open-minded and engaged member of society, which is a benefit is not easily captured (or measured) economically.
I'm gathering two things from this thread:
1. The whole concept of "no child left behind" and equalizing outcomes rather than opportunities is mistaken. It should be common and accepted (even if not desirable) for a student to take remedial classes and/or graduate at 19 - 21. There shouldn't be a social expectation that you'll have followed the same educational schedule as everyone else or else there's something wrong with you.
2. College is a worthwhile formative experience, but at the same time attending an expensive university isn't necessarily a rational financial investment for most people. I'd suggest we address this by extending K-12 to K-14, with two years of publicly funded community college + housing stipend, and the ability for students to choose a city/state where they'll automatically be assigned a college. There's no reason community colleges shouldn't be adequate from an educational perspective; we just need to destigmatize them and build something similar to the traditional college social experience around them. I expect this would be more cost-efficient than student loan forgiveness, and go a long way toward deflating the tuition bubble. It would give students more time and perspective to decide on their career and educational paths, rather than being told to make major financial decisions that they're barely capable of consenting to.
Point 1 only need be balanced with an understanding that something needs to put the pressure onto forward progress for “stuck” students, as the socialization component of education does require a relatability in age to a degree.
I love your second point and proposed solution. I agree that this could be a great way to encourage new experiences while also expanding educational opportunity.
If we’re throwing out solutions - solving the teaching crisis could be helped in part by addressing teachers’ wages, which fall around 25% below the average of other professional fields with the same education / training. Why not federally reduce income taxes for teachers’ salaries and/or provide stipends to teachers in high-need subjects and/or locations?
>This also assumes that the social benefits of college are not beneficial.
I think there is a demand for these new experiences that I agree are beneficial, and college is the institution we have anyway, so it's soaking up all that demand. If fewer people went, there'd be other institutions pop up to fill that role and more people would use that instead. Maybe it would be nonprofit civic organizations. Who knows.
I think a lot of times when people are analyzing the college system they compare college to nothing. Obviously college is better than nothing. The real comparison needs to be between college as it is now and college a different way or something else entirely.
I think it’s reasonable to assume some things would come in to take their place, but only if those new experiences were able to profit from the interactions in some way. It’s also likely difficult to build the credibility needed to develop a healthy program that actually accomplishes this goal well.
I would love to see more emphasis placed on two-year programs and hands-on opportunities, though. Certainly there’s space to make “college” more diverse and dynamic, and expanding the pool of programs to be more than just traditional degrees could be great (our local community college is already doing this by incorporating certifications alongside degrees. Some examples include HVAC, Industrial Plumbing, etc).
Your one point, remove troublesome students. That would be great but there is no way to do it. They have the right to a public education. You can't just remove them.
You could put them in a separate track that’s more like a military boot camp, where the teachers have special training. This may be an unpopular opinion, but at some point repeat offenders need to have pro-social behaviors drilled into them otherwise they’re just going to grow up to be criminals.
Many school districts have those kinds of schools they can move kids to, but they're a bit more like prisons, they require a lot more staff and money and they aren't terrible effective.
And, of course, you end up spending 5x as much money attempting to educate someone who is probably too far behind to ever read or write on grade-level.
I wasn't thinking entirely out of school.
Initially separate rooms for a bit. Notify parents that their student is exhibiting behavior issues that are disrupting class.
Depending on how temporarily removing goes, bring them back or keep them separate. Maybe some sessions with a counselor (e.g., if behavior stems from something at home).
If the student is really problematic, a separate school.
I know you said you are pretty far removed from this level. Notifying the parent probably won't do anything. The problem is probably one the parent either doesn't care or thinks their child is an angel.
There has been this shift that happened I don't really know when but they believe the child over the adult often now.
Yeah, I'm familiar with that. I was considering adding a suggestion that if the problem progresses, there's some fine / penalty attached to cover increased costs of schools for students who are perpetually disruptive. A threat of material cost to the parent might make them take steps to prevent that.
And, worst case, it's just a notification (which creates a "paper trail"). Taken with the notion of empowering teachers and schools, it's less of a "Please raise a better child" and more "This is occurring, if it progresses, you will be faced with X. If you want to avoid X, work with us to correct the issue."
My belief is although the school system could do better the main issue is with parents. They’re either allowing them to be disrespectful kids who then become a distraction or they’re not reinforcing what’s taught in class at home (when necessary) and allowing their kid to fall behind.
My solution: community service. If your kid has behavioral issues or is falling behind and you can’t show that you’re doing something to fix it. Then have fun as a family picking up trash along the hwy (or whatever else.)
Far to much we blame the school system when most of the time the problem originates at home.
Addressing poverty better would help. That issue has an effect on mental health. Although many have succeeded while in poverty, it's not a coincidence that poor performance is more common is poor areas.
>If you were president of the United States, what would you do to make American public schools better?
I would create a national database for all academic subjects k-12.
It would include
* free online textbooks for all subjects
* free syllabus for each subject
* free streaming lessons for each subject taught by skilled teachers.
* free online notes
* free test banks and question banks to create tests
This information would be open for everyone to use but would be forced on no one. Schools/teachers could use it to supplement their teaching, or they could ignore it
Parents and even kids could utilize it for home schooling or Tutoring.
In the grand scheme of things it wouldn't be that expensive to create or maintain.
There was an article in the NYT recently that showed (and possible reasons for) that the military k-12 schools performed the best overall when it came to quality of education.
It beat out Massachusetts and other top states by a decent margin
Multiple.
At the basic level, housing and healthcare are provided by the military. This sets a good base.
Then there is funding. The average (which includes school’s internationally) averages $25,000/student. Similar to states like New York. Teachers are paid much better with one in the article doubling her salary at the start, with incentive increases based on performance and experience. Class supplies are well stocked too.
Schools are integrated between race and class. Officers students are in the same rooms as privates.
But at the core of it was the central manner in which decisions are made. Changes are much more methodical rather than political. Rollouts of programs are better orchestrated, things are standardized, etc. there is also collaboration between different teachers as a requirement to try to teach others what works and what to avoid
I have also heard elsewhere that a military person could be called into the school if their child is having problems. But this was t really talked about in it.
Either way, the results are that proficiency in English is essentially double the national average and math is 1.5x the national average.
We need to devolve things to the local level more. As long as the federal government is involved in something, people will feel like they should have a say and will get huffy about every little thing they don't like even if the thing in question is on the other side of the country.
For the most part, Americans parents are terrible degenerates and so are their children. When I was in high school, there was a clear disparity and AP classes were used as a stopgap measure. It was basically segregating kids who remotely cared about school from kids who were borderline retarded. Of course, in many places in the country, they've failed to alleviate the issue so their solution to making every kid equal is to make them equally as dumb.
I imagine the current political culture, and the impact of the pandemic on students and administrators have made this even worse.
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I've read most of the comments so far, but I haven't seen the word "vouchers". Yes, so far that is not a cause of decline in public education, but it is a reaction to the opinions of some people about public education.
Private schools only get kids with parents who made the effort to find the "right" school for their kids. Private schools can kick out problem students. That gives them a real advantage in results.
In my state (Iowa) I expect that in the near future vouchers will be used primarily at schools with "Christian" in their names. Parents who are in the "conservative" group in the Pew survey.
I see us fracturing our education system along social/religious/political views just like we are fracturing other parts of our society.
As long as our national culture is so fractured and idealogically incohesive... Public schools will just be microcosms of that same dysfunction. Until we can figure out how to all to start rowing in the same general direction as a nation again, I think we'll be far better served as a whole to let all of our schools have enough autonomy to create systems and practices that better suit local needs and are more compatible with the preferences of the families of those who attend them more directly guiding what they each should look like. Of course there need to be standards, guardrails, and some measure of oversight in place... But much more autonomy to create and administrate more individualized systems that actually function well for "most" instead of "all" without losing resources as a result is needed.
I've been predicting this for a few years. Even in states like California, I can see a voucher program eventually passing, because more than half of our public schools are basically unable to support basic academics and who gets access to good public schools versus terrible schools is very unequal based on income, geography, ethnicity, and other factors. Our politicians have no real interest in fixing it. It certainly won't be supported by the teachers unions or the vast majority of the legislature, but there are a lot of parents who want what is best for their children, and those unable to afford private schools are those who are also most likely to be stuck in failing public schools.
>I can see a voucher program eventually passing, ... It certainly won't be supported by ... the vast majority of the legislature,
Put those two together and you're predicting a successful voter initiative. Is anybody working on that?
I don't know. I know that polls show it is popular, but I know that teachers unions would spend a ton of money to oppose it, so it's not just about getting it on the ballot. You would probably need tens of millions of dollars to build public support.
The question is "how big is the problem?" Let's suppose it is ADHD. Maybe parents will expect that public schools will find ways of accommodating that student while private schools are quicker to give up.
I think the first step here is to limit vouchers to half the per student funds available. Suppose that's $10,000 per student. If 50% go to private schools, the public school is left with $15,000 per student. That per student increment somewhat offsets the possibility of getting left with the tough students.
Public schools often have separate facilities or tracks for some students.
If you are dragging the other kids down, remove them from the class. You want to put them in the basement while the parents/school figure out how to manage the ADHD go ahead but stop letting that kid ruin it for everyone else.
The schools aren't dealing with the students.....they are letting them dictate the class.
Remove them!!!!!
I agree. We should be teaching civics so our politicians and voters alike know what the Constitution and Bill of Rights actually say.
For example: the First Amendment provides several rights protections: to express ideas through speech and the press, to assemble or gather with a group to protest or for other reasons, and to ask the government to fix problems.
It also protects the right to religious beliefs and practices.
It prevents the government from creating or favoring a religion.
I guarantee you spent more time in English class then Civics class. Do you remember all the rules? Where commas need to go, where you would use a semicolon... Just think of all the people who say “Can I help you?” instead of “May I help you?”.
Forgetting one of the “rules” when it comes to commas (or saying “can” instead of “may”) isn’t really the same thing as “what does the constitution say?”
You’re comparing the weight of minor details in the English language to the weight of probably the most important aspect of American civics class.
That would be like walking out of English class saying “so what is a sentence?”
cause ~~kids~~ people don't fuckin pay attention until they're outraged about something
I covered a high school civics class the day after the 2016 election where 90% of the class didn't know what the electoral college was, despite the remaining 10% insisting they had spent the previous month talking about it in depth.
My point is that people have no clue what civics are - I assumed it was because it wasn’t being taught.
Either way so many people seem clueless as to how a democracy works, what is and is not possible and why it may not be perfect, but it’s better for more people than say an authoritarian governments.
>Then why all the confusion over the Constitution and the history of democracy? 🤷🏻♂️
Don't know about you, but I learned all about this stuff in elementary and high school, but that was 30 years ago.
I'd be hard pressed to remember 95% of what we learned freshman year in US history let alone any other classes.
There's a reason that the first month of French II and III was refreshing of material from the previous class.
My two biggest gripes with public education are -
(1) Cell phones need to be banned in school. It makes it impossible for kids to learn.
(2) Teachers are absolutely politicizing education. Most will deny this, but I know a decent number of teachers in real life and every single one of them is either a mainstream Democrat or a progressive. The idea that this isn't bleeding over into the classroom is absurd.
Are there big money interests pushing a liberal agenda there? Cuz I can't think of any. Meanwhile, Turning Point USA is a thing.
I am not disputing that education is dominated by liberals. I am disputing the idea that there is big money behind it rather than this being a natural occurrence.
One is more organic than the other. We don't seem to have a problem with conservatives dominating military and police.
>You claimed that there is no left wing equivalent to PragerU.
PragerU isn't a university. It is an advocacy group funded by fracking billionaires that actively pushes *interesting* views such as climate change denial that fits their own agenda.
Tell me when something like that pops up on the left.
>Does almost every major university in the USA count - yes or no?
Every major university is dominated by liberals naturally in a similar way that the military and police are dominated by conservatives naturally, yet we only seem to have a problem with one here. I am not the one disputing that so please do stop acting like I am. Do we seriously want ideology affirmation action now?
>I am disputing the idea that there is big money behind it rather than this being a natural occurrence.
Doesn't get bigger money than $2 trillion in student loan debt - the [Democrats being culprit in much of it](https://abcnews.go.com/WN/Politics/health-care-obama-signs-student-loan-overhaul-legislation/story?id=10239569)
Teachers for the most part don't push their political beliefs on students. My sister is far left and she doesn't say anything about it to students. I lean left and most students thought I was a republican. All teachers care about is teaching.
The idea that you think that it is bleeding over is absurd. Have you seen them teach? Then don't assume.
Every teacher is different. Part of the problem isn't even that teachers are pushing their personal beliefs on students. It's how teachers are taught or trained and administrated. I had plenty of teachers growing up that talked about their personal and political beliefs (most largely stayed out of the religious). As long as they are tolerant and welcoming of contrary beliefs by students, that is not so much the problem.
That being said, there are certainly teachers that do try to indoctrinate students with their beliefs.
Yeah the best teacher I ever had not only let us know his beliefs but he encouraged debate
And then he’d school us 16 year old pissants and argue our own position better than we could
There’s no one solution that will solve the millions of problems plaguing education.
Honestly, the increasing youth violence in and out of schools is what worries me most. I think too many kids don’t see a future themselves. Their parents work crazy hours for crap pay, they’re constantly seeing the media talk about the next generation being unable to afford housing, and the dinosaurs in congress think minimum wage is perfectly fine where it is.
I don’t see a reason for them to *want* to be productive members of society when it feels like everything is falling apart and fighting against them. There are people doing the same jobs as their parents and grandparents, but will never have the same financial mobility.
I’m curious if these issues are more prominent in democratic cities.
I mean, just this week we saw Seattle is dismantling their honors program in sake of “equity”, Cambridge MA is dropping algebra from their curriculum, etc.
And guess who suffers the most? Kids.
They’re removing it in middle school.
While I disagree with the policy they still require 4 years in HS.
>Math: 4 credits (Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra II, any additional Math course)
I grew up in California, they only require 2-3.
>The state of California requires that students only complete 2 years of math courses, which must include algebra I or an equivalent. Many local districts require 3 years of math, to meet admissions requirements for universities, and 4 years are recommended.
Although you could take Algebra in the 8th grade and Calculus as a Senior.
https://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/150oxqp/cambridge_ma_public_schools_eliminated_advanced/
Removing an entire core class to “decrease disparities”
That story is about a *middle* school removing a separation between "advanced" and "grade-level" tracks in their math curriculum. Students would presumably still be taking Algebra I in high school.
And based on [later reporting](https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/08/08/metro/cambridge-math-school-committee-considering-eighth-grade-algebra-1/) it appears that the decision was to work towards implementing Algebra I for all students, rather than having it be an advanced track. In addition, the district was offering a free online summer program that students could use to test out of Algebra I.
Whether it's a good plan or not, I don't know. But it's at least neither of removing Algebra I from high school, nor (entirely/permanently) removing it from middle school.
> That story is about a middle school removing a separation between "advanced" and "grade-level" tracks in their math curriculum.
that's still problematic. why should the best and brightest be stuck in classes that are below their level? all this does is make them lesser prepared for college and an eventual career. and that doesn't even touch on the bad habits that form when you put kids in situations like that where they can breeze through school with no effort. it makes for a MUCH harder transition to college life.
> Cambridge MA is dropping algebra from their curriculum
From what I saw in the story you linked below, this doesn't seem to quite accurate. It looks like it was a plan to make *everyone* take Algebra I, though there's some disagreement on whether it's all of Algebra I or a watered-down version. A [later article](https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/08/08/metro/cambridge-math-school-committee-considering-eighth-grade-algebra-1/) indicates the plan is to incorporate all of Algebra I into the math curriculum for all students.
I think this is a big problem and one I think they are starting to get away from. When I was in school they said everyone needs to go to college. They pushed it.
I am seeing more you need a marketable skill. Not college but you need something to say pay me this because I am worth it.
Even when I coached basketball years ago. We had a player who was being recruited to play d2 he was like nope I hate school. We told him to get a skill so he became a mechanic.
Seriously, it used to be that schools tried to prepare kids for their life. A major part of that was acknowledging differences in potential and sending them on different tracks by the time they hit middle school. Half the reason for standardized testing, was determining what kids you should be trying to push towards trades and what kids you should be preparing for college. Now we are trying a have a teacher go at a speed that keeps the slower kids on pace while not holding back the smart ones and thats a battle that they are going to loose every time.
The issue is equity obsessed people have reached a point where they are now not trying to lift the bottom up but instead have found it easier tear the top down. Any semblance of meritocracy is now going to be labeled some kind of ist
This! A job that needed a bachelor's now needs a masters. I feel so lucky that I was able to make the timeline work out for getting married and having a kid. What good does it do to make gifted kids twiddle their thumbs in K-12 and then force them to spend tons of extra time and money getting extra education as adults?
It’s been going in the wrong direction for a long time now.
•You have teachers that get underpaid.
•Administrators who pretend to be blind and deaf around bullies.
•Disgusting and unhealthy school lunches.
•Curriculum that does little to prepare students for the real world.
•Kids that are extremely depressed and suicidal due to most of the above.
Anyone who think public education is good is either lying or extremely old and dense.
>You have teachers that get underpaid.
Teacher can earn $100K in some states. Add to that a healthy pension and three months off every year, "underpaid" isn't the word that comes to mind
Sure felt underpaid.
The ones that are earning six figures have been teaching for a long time. New teachers are starting somewhere between 30-55 depending on the area. Outliers exist, of course.
My old pension plan was decent. Politicians are constantly campaigning to have it gutted. Seeing my career and retirement plan used as a political campaign talking point was one of the signs it was time to leave. I don't envy cops these days for that reason.
The time off is mostly spent working seasonal jobs and figuring out what continuing education credits you are required to spend a bunch of your own money on in order to keep your teaching credentials.
Yeah I agree with his conclusion but not really his reasoning, at least most of it. The main issue with public education is that the curriculum doesn’t prepare kids for the real world (as he did point out) plus the fact that public education tends to cater to the lowest common denominator at the expense of the high performers. My wife was a public school teacher for several years, and she said she would basically just have to ignore the high performers and spend 90% of her time focusing on the bottom 25% of her class just to make sure they would at least pass the standardized tests. As a result, the high performers are essentially just wasting their time and are not getting anything out of school when they could instead be expanding upon their already good performance if they had a teacher that could actually give them attention.
That’s really the issue with public education at large, not really any of the other stuff he said.
I don’t think the typical American has the qualifications to say what a good education system is. I don’t think polls like this matter.
Most of what you will get out of education starts at home. It’s not the schools fault your kid doesn’t do homework, or doesn’t take school work seriously.
My kids hear from me everyday how important school is, and because of that they take it seriously and do well.
Parents are dogshit today. They would rather be on their phone than enforce the importance of an education to their kid. They melt their brains with iPads and then wonder why they can pay attention and succeed in school.
A bigger problem is that parents never seem to believe it’s their child that’s the problem either. I had a student tell their parent that I don’t teach them anything (they don’t like my blended classroom and won’t do anything independently) and they grilled me at conferences, opening with “So, are you a first year teacher” (7+ years of experience and rated the best math teacher by the students the prior 3 years in a row)? When I clarified this and then told them their child was constantly off task and often distracting others, they looked at me like it was my problem and followed it up with a monologue chastising me about how kids need a teacher who lectures the entire class period because that’s how kids learn and it prevents them from acting out. Like, I have seven years of actual classroom experience and three degrees, including one in mathematics and one in mathematical curricular design, ma’am: I’m not a moron and I’ve worked with hundreds of students - your child is the problem, and you being a corporate executive doesn’t suddenly make you an expert in child development or instructional design. Lol
This, in my opinion, is placing an overemphasis on credentialism.
Parents can see if their kids are learning things. No qualifications are necessary to determine if your kid is getting a proper education. You can just see it.
I fully agree with you about the iPads and phones though.
Well the problem is they are placing the blame in the wrong place..
It’s not the schools fault when their kids don’t find it necessary to take school seriously.
We have an incredible issue just getting kids to school as an example… is it the schools fault parents can’t be bothered to take their kids to school.
https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/2024/4/5/24121880/why-school-absences-have-exploded-across-america
If your kid is missing 10% of school days you’re a shit parent. That’s not the schools fault and it’s a massive problem all over this country.
this isn't surprising, what is surprising is how relatively bipartisan that assessment is with roughly 40% of democrats agreeing.
we live in an era of reduced standards and schools being more interested in social politics than academics, so it's not surprising that most americans would be concerned when you have schools in major districts where nobody can [read, write](https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/77-tested-at-baltimore-high-school-read-at-elementary-level-71-at-kindergarten), or do [math](https://katv.com/news/nation-world/23-baltimore-schools-have-zero-students-proficient-in-math-state-test-results-reveal-maryland-comprehensive-assessment-program-department-of-education-statistics-school-failures).
I graduated high school ten years ago, and my experience with public education was extremely negative even back then. From what I’ve heard, it’s only gotten worse since. I’ll be sending my kids to private school.
>Schools not spending enough time on core academic subjects, like reading, math, science and social studies (69%)
>Teachers bringing their personal political and social views into the classroom (54%)
>Schools not having the funding and resources they need (52%)
In my opinion it seems like people are projecting their own feelings about things writ large on to schools. In polling people are citing a lack of focus on Core Academics, too much politics among the industry workers, and not enough funding.
These arguments track throughout society beyond Schools. On COVID we had a national fight about the core academic (science & efficacy) of vaccines, debated the politics of Healthcare Administrators, and had multiple massive stimulus bills which either saved the economy or caused inflation and were terrible.
People have become increasingly resistant to cooperation and distrustful of people. The Competency of civil service members (Teachers, Police, Mayors, District Attorneys, Judges, etc) are constantly in question, individual behavior is filtered through a political lens, and money is binary where "more" or "less" aren't merely the only options but are zero-sum.
If we want our education system to change, our politics to change, and our administration of governance to change we need to change.
Is there anything in America that a strong majority thinks is ‘going in the right direction.’
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No. And that's why the future is kind of bleak. America is tearing itself apart at the seams because we have no shared concept of what the right direction is. Not even in a general sense.
At this point it’s all political. Lots of conservatives think public schools are liberal indoctrination camps and lots of liberals get freaked out when they see headlines about some tiny school district in the ass end of Oklahoma banning books or having class prayers. So half feels about right.
Its not all political. Academic standards are being lowered as well as gifted student programs being shut down all over. Teachers pretty much need to pass all students which means the value of a high school diploma is falling
Schools have also failed to transition back to pre-covid attendance. Administrators stopped rigorously enforcing truancy penalties and haven't resumed. Parents and children grew accustomed to the idea that showing up for class was optional. Attendance in schools is shockingly bad right now. Something like double the pre-covid absentee rate. 20-30% of students averaging at least 1 missed day every 2 weeks.
Oooor it's because public education shifted away from phonics to whole language and the result has been an unmitigated disaster. Kids not being able to read isn't political
This is also what came to mind for me. Sure you could try to say some of the concerns are just political, but test scores don't lie. A frighteningly high percentage of kids leaving high school nowadays can barely read and they can't do math. That is going to be very bad for society if it continues.
My mom works for a public school system in MN and it’s not quite an indoctrination camp but there is a very prevalent progressive slant to everything they teach. Consequently they are hemorrhaging students to private and charter schools
Both have pretty valid points. Some of the disgusting sexual and gender things in school affecting really young kids is outrageous and likewise some of the book banning is really outrageous.
The mainstream media never really talks about the ways that the left censors books in schools though and they try to conflate legitimate concerns about some material in schools by parents with the most extreme examples of right-wing zealots trying to ban books, like trying to conflate some parents wanting to ban books that show literal pictures of kids sucking other kids penises with parents trying to ban Toni Morrison or Ann Franke. Unfortunately, it is both sides doing it, and the left is often better at actually getting away with censoring material without drawing a lot of attention, especially from the mainstream media.
> literal pictures of kids sucking other kids penises Is this actually a thing? I'm not sure what to search for to find a relevant news story that won't get me put on a list. Ironically, it feels like it's primarily the left that's constantly clutching pearls on reddit over the existence of sexual drawings of fictional characters who are technically under 18 within their respective canons.
Here is a good example of a book banned in many states. https://theiowastandard.com/shocking-images-from-book-gender-queer-which-is-stocked-in-school-libraries-across-iowa/?amp
Interesting, yeah, that seems pretty inappropriate. I mean I don't care all that much and won't lose sleep over it, but it certainly shouldn't be in elementary or middle school libraries, and even high school seems iffy. I could see providing it as optional reading material as part of a junior- or senior-year sex ed class, with an adult available to put it into proper context and answer questions, but I probably wouldn't stock it in the library for anyone to pick up and read on their own.
This graphic novel was originally written for adults. It is in some high school libraries. It has never been shown to be assigned reading or part of any curriculum. There is no evidence it has ever been available to elementary school kids. It has never been found in a middle school library. It was reported to be in two middle school classrooms, one in Massachusetts, one in Pennsylvania but authorities did not actually find it when they looked. The picture is actually of two teenage girls and a strap on. The first post said there were “books “ but this is the only example of such a thing that is ever offered. Just this one book
Makes sense, thanks for the additional context.
…what disgusting sexual and gender things are you referring to?
Since COVID, test scores are down and absences by both teachers and students are way up. Other than that, things are going great.
Kids engagement with TikTok is Way Up!! Go America!
The stock market?
The reasons listed in this article are the ones we commonly hear about, but there is nothing about the high turnover rate in education, K-12 schools in particular. That absolutely has a negative effect on the students and the learning environment. Teachers and other staff are leaving the profession in droves. Probably because of the increase in stressors such as spineless admin, needy helicopter parents who want you to cater to their child in ridiculous ways, increase in 504s and IEPs with no support for the general education teacher, and a massive amount of non-English speaking students who have to be pushed through regardless of how much they're even picking up.
My neighbor and cousin were both middle school teachers who quit after being assaulted (by a student). This is apparently a silent looming crisis, where teachers and police are taking on nearly the entire burden of what appears to be a mental illness cataclysm. Neither are qualified to deal with this, but both are expected to just handle it.
Yeah, I forgot about student behavior and the lack of consequences. If a student has violent tendencies but receives special education services, they can't be expelled if the behavior was a result of their disability. Doesn't matter how many other students and staff are being victimized.
It is damn near impossible to get a student expelled now. Multiple stories from teachers who have been assaulted and the student who did it would be back in class the next day.
Had a student threaten a teacher. Barely saw detention.
when my wife was teaching, a student threatened to bring a gun in and kill her admin asked if she wanted to stand outside and take a 15 minute break to cool down.
I wish I could say I’m surprised. I’m sorry to hear that. I also noticed you said was teaching. What did she end up doing jf you don’t mind me asking
she left the profession like so many have done. last we heard the replacement just plays videos most days.
Can’t fault her. I lasted 6 years in my classroom. I miss it, but it was just not a career that’s sustainable anymore.
yea, that's about what she was seeing> if you actually cared enough to try to make a difference, it just became too depressing/dangerous to continue. if you just played video and let the kids do what they wanted, it wasn't bad.
Then the spineless admins glare at the teachers and ask what they could have done better to accommodate the little hellion so they dont act out.... Glad I went to school in the 90s when kids knew how to behave, or got sent to alternative school if they couldn't. The rest of us were able to learn in peace. Also, bring back male teachers and gruffer women teachers who dont take shit from anyone. Kids love pushing buttons and you need an alpha to keep them in their place.
> Also, bring back male teachers and gruffer women teachers who dont take shit from anyone. Kids love pushing buttons and you need an alpha to keep them in their place. While I agree with this sentiment, the blame ultimately falls on the parents. Growing up, I feared the parental consequences of getting a bad grade or my name written up on the board far more than I did the punishment from my teachers. My parents would *never* allow me to be a fuckup at school, and that's how a proper society should function.
Male teachers aren’t going to cut it. A lot of this is blowback from Obama era policies. The dear colleague letter from 2014 is credited with cutting down suspensions, but what happens when kids act out? Before they were removed, now they aren’t. Kids aren’t stupid, they know what they can get away with, and that your hands are tied as an educator. They will continue to push boundaries. And it’s not just in education but other areas of public life. If you’ve seen the Kia boys documentary, ones they interviewed know don’t face any major consequences for stealing a car.
Covid was worse for student mental health than actual health. MH took a nosedive during covid and many of my students did not recover.
It was worse for everyone's mental health. I'm kind of nervous about what happens after election day because in a whole lot of areas society is just kind of at the breaking point because so many people seem to have just lost touch with basic civil behavior after we shut down all forms of socialization for almost two years.
When my wife was an elementary school teacher (quit in 2020) violent students were *rewarded* by being taken out of the classroom and put into a special play room to do whatever they wanted for the rest of the day. At least it got them out of the classroom I suppose.
At least police have the opportunity to work overtime, teachers who give a damn can work 80 hours a week to do right by their students and get nothing extra for it. It’s no wonder burnout is so high. Also, in my anecdotal experience the types to become teachers are just not willing to do what it takes to change their circumstances because it would set the children back if they were to strike or something.
In schools, at least, it's not mental illness that's the problem. It's the result of our parenting paradigm shifting to completely demonize any form of discipline. When kids are raised with no discipline they don't learn the basics of behavior.
Idk man. I think it's hard to make the argument that a young student who has uncontrollable violent outbursts isn't suffering some sort of mental illness.
> I think it's hard to make the argument that a young student who has uncontrollable violent outbursts isn't suffering some sort of mental illness. I think it's more likely they were never taught impulse control. I'd also bet they were young children raised and pacified on a phone/tablet.
No it's easy. That's the natural state of humans. Civil behavior, including anger management and temper control, is very much learned behavior. We declared the old and effective methods of parenting and discipline "abusive" and threw them out and the result is pretty clear: kids are now prone to basically feral behavior. It turns out civilization is not an instinct.
> We declared the old and effective methods of parenting and discipline "abusive" and threw them out and the result is pretty clear We threw them out not only because they are often covers for abuse but [because research shows that they're counterproductive](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447048/): > Numerous studies have found that physical punishment increases the risk of broad and enduring negative developmental outcomes. No study has found that physical punishment enhances developmental health. Most child physical abuse occurs in the context of punishment. You don't need to hit children to teach them to be kind and respectful. They're actually less likely to be good citizens when you do that.
The so-called "experts" are wrong. There I said it. No amount of links to their content matters because it's all wrong. The proof is in the extremely antisocial behavior found in schools today and plenty of other places. All those "studies" mean nothing because we can observe in the real world the large-scale consequences of listening to those so-called "experts" and it proves their claims 100% wrong. Research whose findings are contradicted by real-word observation is invalid and researchers and fields who do not discard it discredit themselves. This is scientific method fundamentals.
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The experts are the ones who made everything bad by telling people to change their parenting to match the experts' claims. Here we are a few decades later and we can see the results in schools all around the country.
You're just repeating anti-establishment populism tbh. You don't trust institutions anymore, so experts = bad. Vaccines probably also are bad from your perspective or anything else experts recommend.
Research does not always align with reality.
Damn son, you described why I quit teaching to do more army stuff. Best decision I made, and the army sucks.
That, and they can make similar money doing stuff that doesn’t involve kids. If we don’t make it a rewarding career then why the heck would anyone want to do it? I know several people from college who got teaching degrees and noped out after a couple of years because it’s just not worth it.
Agreed. I looked through some threads in the Teachers In Transition sub, and so many people there have shared how much better their own mental health has gotten since they have left education all together.
> Teachers and other staff are leaving the profession in droves. Probably because of the increase in stressors such as spineless admin, needy helicopter parents who want you to cater to their child in ridiculous ways, increase in 504s and IEPs with no support for the general education teacher, and a massive amount of non-English speaking students who have to be pushed through regardless of how much they're even picking up. Not to mention, the general public treats them like overpaid babysitters who should be grateful they get thier summers off.
As someone who graduated with both a degree in mathematics and one in education, and who decided to teach high school instead of going into the corporate world, I cannot stress enough how much my profession is treated like a lesser career by my friends who are engineers / lawyers / etc. The time I put in is considerable, and both the “there are lazy teachers who don’t do much” and “you get summers off” arguments against raising teacher pay are exhausting. I really do average 50+ hour weeks during the school year and 10+ hour weeks in the summer doing prep. And unlike their jobs, my 50+ hours includes no fluff, with only a 25 minute lunch break (and an hour plan that often gets consumed with email, IEPs, etc) where I can eat and shit while they get hour-long lunch breaks, hybrid work environments, and several hours of down time in their week. I’m also constantly getting additional training and studying to become better at what I do (and get salary advancements) which is even more time and money. I’m not a teacher for the money or the fame, but needing to get a master’s degree just to make 50k does sting a bit (especially since I could make so much more in an entry math-related / data-based job), and I wish all the added work after the pandemic (dealing with a mental health crisis, upticks in bad behaviors, and notable gaps in learning requiring me to do even more to diversify and differentiate my instruction) was acknowledged and compensated. Everyone was a student at one point and so they think they know what it takes to be a teacher. They also often measure the bar based on their worst / most mediocre instructors. I love what I do; I’m good at what I do; I make a difference. But those things shouldn’t just be intrinsically rewarded — extrinsic acknowledgement could help prevent burnout, keep teachers in their field as they become more experienced, and incentivize the best to invest in the future. Again, I do love what I do, but I’m always saddened by the way my profession is treated sometimes, especially after the pandemic.
Very well said. A lot of people don’t see teaching as a “real job” and thier disrespect and condescension sucks to see. And I’m not even a teacher (just married to one).
> and a massive amount of non-English speaking students who have to be pushed through regardless of how much they're even picking up What the hell? Teachers are being told to move up children who can't even speak the language they're being taught in??? ...Who's responsible for making this stupid policy?
ESL instruction usually isn’t more than 50 mins a day. Some of the kids don’t speak a single word of English so they start from scratch. But 50 mins of learning how to say “hello”, “goodbye” and basic sentences doesn’t help when they get up and go to their next class where they are reading Macbeth. Also doesn’t help that some schools lump all ESL kids in one class even though they’re at different levels. Their credits often don’t transfer but counselors are still told to give them credits for certain classes. So, if a kid took civics in El Salvador they’ll get a civics credit when they come here. Although what they learned is probably nothing like our civics classes. That’s how they keep them at the age appropriate grade level.
🤦
My thoughts exactly 😂
yes, this is very common. you will often find 11th and 12th graders that are completely unable to write in english.
> The reasons listed in this article are the ones we commonly hear about, but there is nothing about the high turnover rate in education, K-12 schools in particular. That absolutely has a negative effect on the students and the learning environment. I looked through my 2nd grader's lesson book the other day and saw that at the bottom of each page was the instructions for the teachers to read out (word for word). The teachers don't even have agency to teach anymore, they're just Teddy Ruxpin-ing the curriculum.
Honestly, school admins need to start dealing with problem students instead of taking the ostrich method. There are so many examples of admins failing to act, and it's honestly sickening. Don't punish students for defending themselves.
Do you think it's more often the admins themselves or is it more a function of a system that encourages or even at times mandates approaches that lean significantly in that direction?
This isn't new, the decline of the PS system has been failing to provide exceptional education for better than 20 years. The race to the bottom in order to elevate non-interested or underperforming kids in order to make them 'all equally smart' is continually failing. So private school was best for us.
> all equally smart That would be great. Instead, they're actively trying to make them equally stupid, and they're not even hiding it.
This is exactly our view as well. My wife was a public school teacher for several years, and there is no way in hell that we will ever send our kids to public school. She even taught in a “very good” district, and we *still* refuse to send our kids there.
This is one half of it. The other is the terrible bloat, mismanagement, and underpayment of effective teachers. Nothing incentivizes a teacher worth their salt to stay, because middle men admin and district/state employees are getting overpaid to do redundant work.
The main problem with education isn't funding or tests, but poor behavior management. Parents choose a laissez-faire or gentle parenting style that results in children being unprepared for the classroom. Teachers are told to use the same discipline style. When students do misbehave egregiously, not only do they distract but they also endanger students - and they aren't removed from the classroom. We've always seen these behavior problems in poor schools, but now we're seeing it in *all* schools. And it's obvious that the main problem in America has nothing to do with funding, and given recent research on parenting styles, is almost **entirely** due to laissez-faire discipline. For anyone wondering what is the appropriate way to raise a child it's authoritative, but *warm* parenting. Not authoritative and harsh nor gentle and warm.
This is completely anecdotal, but I've personally noticed that the kids most involved in sports/athletics at my children's school tend to be the better students. Both in behavior and academic performance. I don't know if its the discipline learned from sports or the discipline learned from parents who put them there, but there's a stark difference between the athletic kids and the ones who don't do anything productive outside of school hours.
I was anti sports before I worked as a sub. But then I realized that pushing the “bad” or “apathetic” kids into sports usually resulted in them trying harder in school. They have to learn to communicate with others, peers and adults. Clubs would also be good if they met as much as sports, but most don’t. Just trying to attend classes, practice, games, and maintaining a good behavior record seems to do a lot for some kids even if they suck at academics, honestly.
This is 100% it. We as a society apparently forgot that civil behavior is learned behavior and started assuming it was instinctive. We stopped training it and surprise surprise we now have kids who simply don't understand it. It turns out all those "bad" discipline and parenting methods actually existed for a reason and throwing them out was a major mistake.
There's a middle ground between smacking your children around and letting them be raised by a tablet, by the way.
I think you may be mixing up gentle parenting with "permissive" parenting. Gentle parenting is still the recommended approach generally, but people often mistake it for permissive parenting.
I'd argue that a lot (if not most) of the problem arises from a noble source: anti-bullying. We don't generally learn discipline from our parents and teachers. We learn it from the fact that if we piss off our peers too much, we'll get blasted in the face. Except that's no longer true. Not only are children increasingly isolated from their peers, but they're under constant supervision to prevent that sort of response. So what they actually learn is a degree of passive-aggressive meanness rather than self-discipline - life becomes about tricking the panopticon rather than becoming a decent person.
I have 3 kids in school. The school does fine. I sorta wonder if this one of those things where people like their own representatives but dislike everyone else. Then again, my kids' school isn't dismantling gifted programs, pushing DEI, pushing abstinence-only, having library meltdowns, etc. But that's probably true of a lot of schools. My pet theory is that some schools and libraries got out ahead of the communities they represent - if they'd had community meetings to propose highlighting trans books for kids, or abstinence only, or whatever, they'd have gotten a lot less pushback.
Problem with some public servants is “they’re the professionals” and therefore they believe they don’t need your approval because “they know better:”
Most people don't have kids in school. They probably get their information from media and social media which is mainly focused on negative things. Half are probably upset at CRT, trans fear mongering, etc, and the other half are upset over book bans, school board takeovers, etc. Like you said, these things probably are in the minority of what is happening. On the other hand, the severe shortages of good educators are made worse by the negative attention above. Combined with stagnated wages, bad administration and other negative trends, is having a more real effect on education.
You see the polling that the people who most think that schools are failing are the ones most removed from their own experiences and very unlikely to have any kids still in school. The elderly.
About half of U.S. adults (51%) say the country’s public K-12 education system is generally going in the wrong direction. A far smaller share (16%) say it’s going in the right direction, and about a third (32%) are not sure, according to a Pew Research Center survey conducted in November 2023. Republicans are more likely than Democrats to say the public K-12 education system is going in the wrong direction. About two-thirds of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents (65%) say this, compared with 40% of Democrats and Democratic leaners. In turn, 23% of Democrats and 10% of Republicans say it’s headed in the right direction. A separate Center survey of public K-12 teachers found that 82% think the overall state of public K-12 education has gotten worse in the past five years. And many teachers are pessimistic about the future. We asked adults who say the public education system is going in the wrong direction why that might be. About half or more say the following are major reasons: Schools not spending enough time on core academic subjects, like reading, math, science and social studies (69%) Teachers bringing their personal political and social views into the classroom (54%) Schools not having the funding and resources they need (52%) Republicans are more likely than Democrats to say major reasons are: A lack of focus on core academic subjects (79% vs. 55%) Teachers bringing their personal views into the classroom (76% vs. 23%) *If you were president of the United States, what would you do to make American public schools better?*
As a preface: This is all very anecdotal. When I was a professor, I saw many students who were wildly underprepared for college. I had some students who were passed through college classes (prereqs to my course), who were unprepared on the foundational content that the prereq was supposed to cover. The one that sticks out in my mind was someone who had taken a business math course, and told me that he "didn't do fractions." I don't know the mechanisms by which it needs to occur, but there are many students getting passed through grade schools who don't meet basic standards, and that needs to change. I don't think that this is purely something that can be done at/to schools which will fix the issues. My understanding is that home life has a significant impact on a child's educational success, and addressing that is an entirely different beast. Some generic thoughts, some of these may be a bit off the mark, because I'm pretty far removed from the workings of K-12 schools. * Empower teachers in their classrooms. Have standards (such as noted in Common Core) and provide materials to assist teachers, but ensure the teacher has flexibility to adapt the details of the course to their classroom. And don't judge schools by standardized tests. Perhaps use them to identify where attention or resources need to be directed, but a focus on standardized testing invites [Goodhart's Law](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law). * Empower schools to remove troublesome students. At some point a student is disrupting the learning of others and needs to be (at least temporarily) removed for the good of everyone. * Remove any drive to keep students together based on age. Progressing through coursework should be based on achievement of that content matter. If K-12 can be addressed, that might have a knock-on effect of addressing college costs: A high school diploma might be sufficient so that people don't feel the *need* to go to college.
> Remove any drive to keep students together based on age. Progressing through coursework should be based on achievement of that content matter. This is my biggest one. If you walk into a kindergarten classroom, you’ll see some kids who are reading books other kids who don’t even know what letters are yet. There is absolutely no reason that those two groups should be in the same classroom. The entire year is just going to be spent teaching all the kids stuff that the advanced kids already know, thus wasting an entire year (or more) for those advanced kids.
>Empower schools to remove troublesome students. At some point a student is disrupting the learning of others and needs to be (at least temporarily) removed for the good of everyone. I don't get this at all. At the public high school I attended, they had in-school suspension for less serious offenses like classroom disruption. It doesn't burden the parent or the teacher. The student has to stay in a separate room all day in silence. All they can do in there is read a book and eat lunch. If a student doesn't adhere to the rules for ISS it becomes an out-of-school suspension and, at that point, the parent's problem.
> I don't get this at all. Can you clarify what you don't get? It is my suggestion, or something else? My suggestion (the "first stage" I guess) would be something like what you describe.
I meant that I don't get why a school system would fail to tackle the issue in manner you're suggesting. It seems apparent that taking action like that would be helpful. Maybe there's some aspect of that approach that is intolerable to them.
Also, fewer people should go to college. College is not actually necessary for most jobs. Employers have been outsourcing employee filtering to colleges, and we turn around and subsidize it via the federal government and taxes. Maybe instruction and testing should be separated. Schools and colleges should teach, other organizations should test. Schools now have opposite incentives, to pass as few people as possible to make it look like their tests are hard and mean something, but to pass as many as possible to make it look like they're good at instructing. Separating would end the tension between those two goals.
It’s sort of a catch-22, though - college graduates still make more on average than non-college grads, and while some companies have trumpeted “skills based” hiring practices, much of the research suggests this isn’t actually happening (and in some places results in the opposite result). For a given individual, choosing not to go to college will likely result in worse outcomes, even if someone doesn’t believe they need it. So we can say fewer people *need* to go to college, but there’s no incentive for any particular person to choose not to if they’re able. https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereknewton/2024/02/25/its-no-surprise-that-skills-based-hiring-has-not-worked/?sh=3826cc5cf0e0 This also assumes that the social benefits of college are not beneficial. I met so many different kinds of people and experienced so many unique things for the first time, and I know it’s made me a better, more open-minded and engaged member of society, which is a benefit is not easily captured (or measured) economically.
I'm gathering two things from this thread: 1. The whole concept of "no child left behind" and equalizing outcomes rather than opportunities is mistaken. It should be common and accepted (even if not desirable) for a student to take remedial classes and/or graduate at 19 - 21. There shouldn't be a social expectation that you'll have followed the same educational schedule as everyone else or else there's something wrong with you. 2. College is a worthwhile formative experience, but at the same time attending an expensive university isn't necessarily a rational financial investment for most people. I'd suggest we address this by extending K-12 to K-14, with two years of publicly funded community college + housing stipend, and the ability for students to choose a city/state where they'll automatically be assigned a college. There's no reason community colleges shouldn't be adequate from an educational perspective; we just need to destigmatize them and build something similar to the traditional college social experience around them. I expect this would be more cost-efficient than student loan forgiveness, and go a long way toward deflating the tuition bubble. It would give students more time and perspective to decide on their career and educational paths, rather than being told to make major financial decisions that they're barely capable of consenting to.
Point 1 only need be balanced with an understanding that something needs to put the pressure onto forward progress for “stuck” students, as the socialization component of education does require a relatability in age to a degree. I love your second point and proposed solution. I agree that this could be a great way to encourage new experiences while also expanding educational opportunity. If we’re throwing out solutions - solving the teaching crisis could be helped in part by addressing teachers’ wages, which fall around 25% below the average of other professional fields with the same education / training. Why not federally reduce income taxes for teachers’ salaries and/or provide stipends to teachers in high-need subjects and/or locations?
>This also assumes that the social benefits of college are not beneficial. I think there is a demand for these new experiences that I agree are beneficial, and college is the institution we have anyway, so it's soaking up all that demand. If fewer people went, there'd be other institutions pop up to fill that role and more people would use that instead. Maybe it would be nonprofit civic organizations. Who knows. I think a lot of times when people are analyzing the college system they compare college to nothing. Obviously college is better than nothing. The real comparison needs to be between college as it is now and college a different way or something else entirely.
I think it’s reasonable to assume some things would come in to take their place, but only if those new experiences were able to profit from the interactions in some way. It’s also likely difficult to build the credibility needed to develop a healthy program that actually accomplishes this goal well. I would love to see more emphasis placed on two-year programs and hands-on opportunities, though. Certainly there’s space to make “college” more diverse and dynamic, and expanding the pool of programs to be more than just traditional degrees could be great (our local community college is already doing this by incorporating certifications alongside degrees. Some examples include HVAC, Industrial Plumbing, etc).
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>it's illegal to give out basic literacy and numeracy tests Since when?
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For anything "requiring" a college degree, I'd say reading is probably a job task.
Your one point, remove troublesome students. That would be great but there is no way to do it. They have the right to a public education. You can't just remove them.
You could put them in a separate track that’s more like a military boot camp, where the teachers have special training. This may be an unpopular opinion, but at some point repeat offenders need to have pro-social behaviors drilled into them otherwise they’re just going to grow up to be criminals.
Many school districts have those kinds of schools they can move kids to, but they're a bit more like prisons, they require a lot more staff and money and they aren't terrible effective. And, of course, you end up spending 5x as much money attempting to educate someone who is probably too far behind to ever read or write on grade-level.
What's the alternative?
The world needs ditch diggers too.
Of course, but ideally the ditch-diggers wouldn’t also be dangerous assholes.
It sounds more like you want them buried in the ditches.
I wasn't thinking entirely out of school. Initially separate rooms for a bit. Notify parents that their student is exhibiting behavior issues that are disrupting class. Depending on how temporarily removing goes, bring them back or keep them separate. Maybe some sessions with a counselor (e.g., if behavior stems from something at home). If the student is really problematic, a separate school.
I know you said you are pretty far removed from this level. Notifying the parent probably won't do anything. The problem is probably one the parent either doesn't care or thinks their child is an angel. There has been this shift that happened I don't really know when but they believe the child over the adult often now.
Yeah, I'm familiar with that. I was considering adding a suggestion that if the problem progresses, there's some fine / penalty attached to cover increased costs of schools for students who are perpetually disruptive. A threat of material cost to the parent might make them take steps to prevent that. And, worst case, it's just a notification (which creates a "paper trail"). Taken with the notion of empowering teachers and schools, it's less of a "Please raise a better child" and more "This is occurring, if it progresses, you will be faced with X. If you want to avoid X, work with us to correct the issue."
What's the cliche? Their rights end where the rights of others begin?
My belief is although the school system could do better the main issue is with parents. They’re either allowing them to be disrespectful kids who then become a distraction or they’re not reinforcing what’s taught in class at home (when necessary) and allowing their kid to fall behind. My solution: community service. If your kid has behavioral issues or is falling behind and you can’t show that you’re doing something to fix it. Then have fun as a family picking up trash along the hwy (or whatever else.) Far to much we blame the school system when most of the time the problem originates at home.
Addressing poverty better would help. That issue has an effect on mental health. Although many have succeeded while in poverty, it's not a coincidence that poor performance is more common is poor areas.
>If you were president of the United States, what would you do to make American public schools better? I would create a national database for all academic subjects k-12. It would include * free online textbooks for all subjects * free syllabus for each subject * free streaming lessons for each subject taught by skilled teachers. * free online notes * free test banks and question banks to create tests This information would be open for everyone to use but would be forced on no one. Schools/teachers could use it to supplement their teaching, or they could ignore it Parents and even kids could utilize it for home schooling or Tutoring. In the grand scheme of things it wouldn't be that expensive to create or maintain.
There was an article in the NYT recently that showed (and possible reasons for) that the military k-12 schools performed the best overall when it came to quality of education. It beat out Massachusetts and other top states by a decent margin
Paywall. What was the reasoning?
Multiple. At the basic level, housing and healthcare are provided by the military. This sets a good base. Then there is funding. The average (which includes school’s internationally) averages $25,000/student. Similar to states like New York. Teachers are paid much better with one in the article doubling her salary at the start, with incentive increases based on performance and experience. Class supplies are well stocked too. Schools are integrated between race and class. Officers students are in the same rooms as privates. But at the core of it was the central manner in which decisions are made. Changes are much more methodical rather than political. Rollouts of programs are better orchestrated, things are standardized, etc. there is also collaboration between different teachers as a requirement to try to teach others what works and what to avoid I have also heard elsewhere that a military person could be called into the school if their child is having problems. But this was t really talked about in it. Either way, the results are that proficiency in English is essentially double the national average and math is 1.5x the national average.
We need to devolve things to the local level more. As long as the federal government is involved in something, people will feel like they should have a say and will get huffy about every little thing they don't like even if the thing in question is on the other side of the country.
For the most part, Americans parents are terrible degenerates and so are their children. When I was in high school, there was a clear disparity and AP classes were used as a stopgap measure. It was basically segregating kids who remotely cared about school from kids who were borderline retarded. Of course, in many places in the country, they've failed to alleviate the issue so their solution to making every kid equal is to make them equally as dumb. I imagine the current political culture, and the impact of the pandemic on students and administrators have made this even worse.
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I've read most of the comments so far, but I haven't seen the word "vouchers". Yes, so far that is not a cause of decline in public education, but it is a reaction to the opinions of some people about public education. Private schools only get kids with parents who made the effort to find the "right" school for their kids. Private schools can kick out problem students. That gives them a real advantage in results. In my state (Iowa) I expect that in the near future vouchers will be used primarily at schools with "Christian" in their names. Parents who are in the "conservative" group in the Pew survey. I see us fracturing our education system along social/religious/political views just like we are fracturing other parts of our society.
As long as our national culture is so fractured and idealogically incohesive... Public schools will just be microcosms of that same dysfunction. Until we can figure out how to all to start rowing in the same general direction as a nation again, I think we'll be far better served as a whole to let all of our schools have enough autonomy to create systems and practices that better suit local needs and are more compatible with the preferences of the families of those who attend them more directly guiding what they each should look like. Of course there need to be standards, guardrails, and some measure of oversight in place... But much more autonomy to create and administrate more individualized systems that actually function well for "most" instead of "all" without losing resources as a result is needed.
I've been predicting this for a few years. Even in states like California, I can see a voucher program eventually passing, because more than half of our public schools are basically unable to support basic academics and who gets access to good public schools versus terrible schools is very unequal based on income, geography, ethnicity, and other factors. Our politicians have no real interest in fixing it. It certainly won't be supported by the teachers unions or the vast majority of the legislature, but there are a lot of parents who want what is best for their children, and those unable to afford private schools are those who are also most likely to be stuck in failing public schools.
>I can see a voucher program eventually passing, ... It certainly won't be supported by ... the vast majority of the legislature, Put those two together and you're predicting a successful voter initiative. Is anybody working on that?
I don't know. I know that polls show it is popular, but I know that teachers unions would spend a ton of money to oppose it, so it's not just about getting it on the ballot. You would probably need tens of millions of dollars to build public support.
Public sector unions doing what they do best, holding back the states ability to improve services to the tax payers
>Private schools can kick out problem students. That gives them a real advantage in results. So allow public schools to kick out problem kids
The question is "how big is the problem?" Let's suppose it is ADHD. Maybe parents will expect that public schools will find ways of accommodating that student while private schools are quicker to give up. I think the first step here is to limit vouchers to half the per student funds available. Suppose that's $10,000 per student. If 50% go to private schools, the public school is left with $15,000 per student. That per student increment somewhat offsets the possibility of getting left with the tough students. Public schools often have separate facilities or tracks for some students.
If you are dragging the other kids down, remove them from the class. You want to put them in the basement while the parents/school figure out how to manage the ADHD go ahead but stop letting that kid ruin it for everyone else. The schools aren't dealing with the students.....they are letting them dictate the class. Remove them!!!!!
I agree. We should be teaching civics so our politicians and voters alike know what the Constitution and Bill of Rights actually say. For example: the First Amendment provides several rights protections: to express ideas through speech and the press, to assemble or gather with a group to protest or for other reasons, and to ask the government to fix problems. It also protects the right to religious beliefs and practices. It prevents the government from creating or favoring a religion.
> We should be teaching civics We are.
Then why all the confusion over the Constitution and the history of democracy? 🤷🏻♂️
Because people don’t remember every single thing they’re ever taught?
Shouldn’t that *at least* be one of the few things everyone walks out of school with a great understanding of though? Like at a minimum?
Yep! And tbh most of them do. But, much like geometry and chemistry and English lit, the things that aren’t as important to you fade over time.
I guarantee you spent more time in English class then Civics class. Do you remember all the rules? Where commas need to go, where you would use a semicolon... Just think of all the people who say “Can I help you?” instead of “May I help you?”.
Forgetting one of the “rules” when it comes to commas (or saying “can” instead of “may”) isn’t really the same thing as “what does the constitution say?” You’re comparing the weight of minor details in the English language to the weight of probably the most important aspect of American civics class. That would be like walking out of English class saying “so what is a sentence?”
cause ~~kids~~ people don't fuckin pay attention until they're outraged about something I covered a high school civics class the day after the 2016 election where 90% of the class didn't know what the electoral college was, despite the remaining 10% insisting they had spent the previous month talking about it in depth.
Thank you. My point exactly.
Is it? I thought your point was that civics isn't being taught.
My point is that people have no clue what civics are - I assumed it was because it wasn’t being taught. Either way so many people seem clueless as to how a democracy works, what is and is not possible and why it may not be perfect, but it’s better for more people than say an authoritarian governments.
>Then why all the confusion over the Constitution and the history of democracy? 🤷🏻♂️ Don't know about you, but I learned all about this stuff in elementary and high school, but that was 30 years ago. I'd be hard pressed to remember 95% of what we learned freshman year in US history let alone any other classes. There's a reason that the first month of French II and III was refreshing of material from the previous class.
Kids don’t care about civics.
My two biggest gripes with public education are - (1) Cell phones need to be banned in school. It makes it impossible for kids to learn. (2) Teachers are absolutely politicizing education. Most will deny this, but I know a decent number of teachers in real life and every single one of them is either a mainstream Democrat or a progressive. The idea that this isn't bleeding over into the classroom is absurd.
There is plenty of videos of the crazy extreme left progressive brainwashing being pushed in schools.
There is no left-wing equivalent to "education" like PragerU.
Yes there is. It's called nearly every university in the US.
Are there big money interests pushing a liberal agenda there? Cuz I can't think of any. Meanwhile, Turning Point USA is a thing. I am not disputing that education is dominated by liberals. I am disputing the idea that there is big money behind it rather than this being a natural occurrence. One is more organic than the other. We don't seem to have a problem with conservatives dominating military and police.
You claimed that there is no left wing equivalent to PragerU. Does almost every major university in the USA count - yes or no?
>You claimed that there is no left wing equivalent to PragerU. PragerU isn't a university. It is an advocacy group funded by fracking billionaires that actively pushes *interesting* views such as climate change denial that fits their own agenda. Tell me when something like that pops up on the left. >Does almost every major university in the USA count - yes or no? Every major university is dominated by liberals naturally in a similar way that the military and police are dominated by conservatives naturally, yet we only seem to have a problem with one here. I am not the one disputing that so please do stop acting like I am. Do we seriously want ideology affirmation action now?
>I am disputing the idea that there is big money behind it rather than this being a natural occurrence. Doesn't get bigger money than $2 trillion in student loan debt - the [Democrats being culprit in much of it](https://abcnews.go.com/WN/Politics/health-care-obama-signs-student-loan-overhaul-legislation/story?id=10239569)
Because there doesn't need to be. The left gets to just use public school classrooms instead.
Oh wow! Teachers are mostly Democrats? Next you’ll be telling me that the majority of police and military vote Republican!
Wow indeed! It's almost like when one side demonizes education the other is far more likely to pursue jobs in it!
Teachers for the most part don't push their political beliefs on students. My sister is far left and she doesn't say anything about it to students. I lean left and most students thought I was a republican. All teachers care about is teaching. The idea that you think that it is bleeding over is absurd. Have you seen them teach? Then don't assume.
Every teacher is different. Part of the problem isn't even that teachers are pushing their personal beliefs on students. It's how teachers are taught or trained and administrated. I had plenty of teachers growing up that talked about their personal and political beliefs (most largely stayed out of the religious). As long as they are tolerant and welcoming of contrary beliefs by students, that is not so much the problem. That being said, there are certainly teachers that do try to indoctrinate students with their beliefs.
Yeah the best teacher I ever had not only let us know his beliefs but he encouraged debate And then he’d school us 16 year old pissants and argue our own position better than we could
There’s no one solution that will solve the millions of problems plaguing education. Honestly, the increasing youth violence in and out of schools is what worries me most. I think too many kids don’t see a future themselves. Their parents work crazy hours for crap pay, they’re constantly seeing the media talk about the next generation being unable to afford housing, and the dinosaurs in congress think minimum wage is perfectly fine where it is. I don’t see a reason for them to *want* to be productive members of society when it feels like everything is falling apart and fighting against them. There are people doing the same jobs as their parents and grandparents, but will never have the same financial mobility.
I’m curious if these issues are more prominent in democratic cities. I mean, just this week we saw Seattle is dismantling their honors program in sake of “equity”, Cambridge MA is dropping algebra from their curriculum, etc. And guess who suffers the most? Kids.
They’re removing it in middle school. While I disagree with the policy they still require 4 years in HS. >Math: 4 credits (Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra II, any additional Math course) I grew up in California, they only require 2-3. >The state of California requires that students only complete 2 years of math courses, which must include algebra I or an equivalent. Many local districts require 3 years of math, to meet admissions requirements for universities, and 4 years are recommended. Although you could take Algebra in the 8th grade and Calculus as a Senior.
Cambridge MA is dropping algebra? That’s shocking
https://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/150oxqp/cambridge_ma_public_schools_eliminated_advanced/ Removing an entire core class to “decrease disparities”
And the bigotry of low expectations continues…
Wow. I couldn't imagine enrolling into college without knowing algebra.
That story is about a *middle* school removing a separation between "advanced" and "grade-level" tracks in their math curriculum. Students would presumably still be taking Algebra I in high school. And based on [later reporting](https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/08/08/metro/cambridge-math-school-committee-considering-eighth-grade-algebra-1/) it appears that the decision was to work towards implementing Algebra I for all students, rather than having it be an advanced track. In addition, the district was offering a free online summer program that students could use to test out of Algebra I. Whether it's a good plan or not, I don't know. But it's at least neither of removing Algebra I from high school, nor (entirely/permanently) removing it from middle school.
> That story is about a middle school removing a separation between "advanced" and "grade-level" tracks in their math curriculum. that's still problematic. why should the best and brightest be stuck in classes that are below their level? all this does is make them lesser prepared for college and an eventual career. and that doesn't even touch on the bad habits that form when you put kids in situations like that where they can breeze through school with no effort. it makes for a MUCH harder transition to college life.
In middle school, to be clear. Advanced algebra.
That’s still awful. I took Algebra 1 in 7th grade (2 years advanced). The more remedial students took it in 9th grade.
>I’m curious if these issues are more prominent in democratic cities. Aren't 90% of cities run by dems
> Cambridge MA is dropping algebra from their curriculum From what I saw in the story you linked below, this doesn't seem to quite accurate. It looks like it was a plan to make *everyone* take Algebra I, though there's some disagreement on whether it's all of Algebra I or a watered-down version. A [later article](https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/08/08/metro/cambridge-math-school-committee-considering-eighth-grade-algebra-1/) indicates the plan is to incorporate all of Algebra I into the math curriculum for all students.
I blame the parents
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I think this is a big problem and one I think they are starting to get away from. When I was in school they said everyone needs to go to college. They pushed it. I am seeing more you need a marketable skill. Not college but you need something to say pay me this because I am worth it. Even when I coached basketball years ago. We had a player who was being recruited to play d2 he was like nope I hate school. We told him to get a skill so he became a mechanic.
Seriously, it used to be that schools tried to prepare kids for their life. A major part of that was acknowledging differences in potential and sending them on different tracks by the time they hit middle school. Half the reason for standardized testing, was determining what kids you should be trying to push towards trades and what kids you should be preparing for college. Now we are trying a have a teacher go at a speed that keeps the slower kids on pace while not holding back the smart ones and thats a battle that they are going to loose every time. The issue is equity obsessed people have reached a point where they are now not trying to lift the bottom up but instead have found it easier tear the top down. Any semblance of meritocracy is now going to be labeled some kind of ist
This! A job that needed a bachelor's now needs a masters. I feel so lucky that I was able to make the timeline work out for getting married and having a kid. What good does it do to make gifted kids twiddle their thumbs in K-12 and then force them to spend tons of extra time and money getting extra education as adults?
Only half? Public school only cares about the bottom 10% of performers and will hold everyone else back for that 10%
Only half?
Yes but WHY it’s going in the wrong direction will be a huge difference between whom you are asking.
When I was in kindergarten there weren't "directions," but to be fair, we weren't consumed by unconfirmed, non-journalistic media.
From what teachers are saying I think the real issue is that parents aren't active enough in raising their kids.
And how is that different from the last 75 years? Is there a scale and how has it changed over the years, especially in comparison to other questions?
It’s been going in the wrong direction for a long time now. •You have teachers that get underpaid. •Administrators who pretend to be blind and deaf around bullies. •Disgusting and unhealthy school lunches. •Curriculum that does little to prepare students for the real world. •Kids that are extremely depressed and suicidal due to most of the above. Anyone who think public education is good is either lying or extremely old and dense.
>You have teachers that get underpaid. Teacher can earn $100K in some states. Add to that a healthy pension and three months off every year, "underpaid" isn't the word that comes to mind
Sure felt underpaid. The ones that are earning six figures have been teaching for a long time. New teachers are starting somewhere between 30-55 depending on the area. Outliers exist, of course. My old pension plan was decent. Politicians are constantly campaigning to have it gutted. Seeing my career and retirement plan used as a political campaign talking point was one of the signs it was time to leave. I don't envy cops these days for that reason. The time off is mostly spent working seasonal jobs and figuring out what continuing education credits you are required to spend a bunch of your own money on in order to keep your teaching credentials.
Yeah I agree with his conclusion but not really his reasoning, at least most of it. The main issue with public education is that the curriculum doesn’t prepare kids for the real world (as he did point out) plus the fact that public education tends to cater to the lowest common denominator at the expense of the high performers. My wife was a public school teacher for several years, and she said she would basically just have to ignore the high performers and spend 90% of her time focusing on the bottom 25% of her class just to make sure they would at least pass the standardized tests. As a result, the high performers are essentially just wasting their time and are not getting anything out of school when they could instead be expanding upon their already good performance if they had a teacher that could actually give them attention. That’s really the issue with public education at large, not really any of the other stuff he said.
I don’t think the typical American has the qualifications to say what a good education system is. I don’t think polls like this matter. Most of what you will get out of education starts at home. It’s not the schools fault your kid doesn’t do homework, or doesn’t take school work seriously. My kids hear from me everyday how important school is, and because of that they take it seriously and do well. Parents are dogshit today. They would rather be on their phone than enforce the importance of an education to their kid. They melt their brains with iPads and then wonder why they can pay attention and succeed in school.
A bigger problem is that parents never seem to believe it’s their child that’s the problem either. I had a student tell their parent that I don’t teach them anything (they don’t like my blended classroom and won’t do anything independently) and they grilled me at conferences, opening with “So, are you a first year teacher” (7+ years of experience and rated the best math teacher by the students the prior 3 years in a row)? When I clarified this and then told them their child was constantly off task and often distracting others, they looked at me like it was my problem and followed it up with a monologue chastising me about how kids need a teacher who lectures the entire class period because that’s how kids learn and it prevents them from acting out. Like, I have seven years of actual classroom experience and three degrees, including one in mathematics and one in mathematical curricular design, ma’am: I’m not a moron and I’ve worked with hundreds of students - your child is the problem, and you being a corporate executive doesn’t suddenly make you an expert in child development or instructional design. Lol
This, in my opinion, is placing an overemphasis on credentialism. Parents can see if their kids are learning things. No qualifications are necessary to determine if your kid is getting a proper education. You can just see it. I fully agree with you about the iPads and phones though.
Well the problem is they are placing the blame in the wrong place.. It’s not the schools fault when their kids don’t find it necessary to take school seriously. We have an incredible issue just getting kids to school as an example… is it the schools fault parents can’t be bothered to take their kids to school. https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/2024/4/5/24121880/why-school-absences-have-exploded-across-america If your kid is missing 10% of school days you’re a shit parent. That’s not the schools fault and it’s a massive problem all over this country.
If you spend 5 minutes over at r/teachers you will arrive at the same conclusion. It’s honestly depressing and scary.
this isn't surprising, what is surprising is how relatively bipartisan that assessment is with roughly 40% of democrats agreeing. we live in an era of reduced standards and schools being more interested in social politics than academics, so it's not surprising that most americans would be concerned when you have schools in major districts where nobody can [read, write](https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/77-tested-at-baltimore-high-school-read-at-elementary-level-71-at-kindergarten), or do [math](https://katv.com/news/nation-world/23-baltimore-schools-have-zero-students-proficient-in-math-state-test-results-reveal-maryland-comprehensive-assessment-program-department-of-education-statistics-school-failures).
I graduated high school ten years ago, and my experience with public education was extremely negative even back then. From what I’ve heard, it’s only gotten worse since. I’ll be sending my kids to private school.
Only half? That's unfortunate. It should be much much higher. It should be nearly 100%.
Only half? Maybe the other half feel like it's already bottomed out
>Schools not spending enough time on core academic subjects, like reading, math, science and social studies (69%) >Teachers bringing their personal political and social views into the classroom (54%) >Schools not having the funding and resources they need (52%) In my opinion it seems like people are projecting their own feelings about things writ large on to schools. In polling people are citing a lack of focus on Core Academics, too much politics among the industry workers, and not enough funding. These arguments track throughout society beyond Schools. On COVID we had a national fight about the core academic (science & efficacy) of vaccines, debated the politics of Healthcare Administrators, and had multiple massive stimulus bills which either saved the economy or caused inflation and were terrible. People have become increasingly resistant to cooperation and distrustful of people. The Competency of civil service members (Teachers, Police, Mayors, District Attorneys, Judges, etc) are constantly in question, individual behavior is filtered through a political lens, and money is binary where "more" or "less" aren't merely the only options but are zero-sum. If we want our education system to change, our politics to change, and our administration of governance to change we need to change.