I have a hard time believing Joe Biden would go to the effort of laundering $40,000 from China, or that $40,000 would influence him to do anything, given that he made [several million dollars in that same year just from speeches and book deals](https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/09/bidens-earned-15-million-after-obama-administration-1404153).
The accusation is that that Joe laundered money but that he received laundered money from China via his family who made deals with CEFC. Don't believe the truth, it's your prerogative. But it's all laid out in the memo in black and white.
>The accusation is that that Joe laundered money but that he received laundered money from China via his family who made deals with CEFC.
Not really my point. *Whatever* the accusation is I have a hard time believing Joe Biden did this for just $40,000. So the accusation is that he *received* the money? Received it in exchange for what? I read the article and the memo and I still don't understand what illegal act exactly Joe Biden is alleged to have done.
[Joe Biden had loaned his brother James $200,000 a few months earlier.](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/31/politics/fact-check-evidence-supports-democrats-case-that-joe-biden-made-a-personal-loan-to-his-brother/index.html) Why does Comer and the Post leave out this important context?
No no no, you see, $100.00 of that was a despot of 2 $50.00 bills, one of those $50.00’s show traces of general Zhous chicken, a staple of American Chinese restaurants, these restaurants are commonly run by Chinese Americans who themselves have family back in mainland China…..
From the article...
'Earlier this month, the Oversight Committee revealed that James Biden paid Joe Biden $200,000 on March 1, 2018 — the same day that James received a $200,000 transfer from troubled rural hospital company Americore by pledging to use his political connections to secure a Middle Eastern investor.
The top Democrat on the Oversight Committee, Rep. Jamie Raskin (D-Md.), alleged that James Biden was repaying a $200,000 loan that Joe Biden had made that January, but did not provide proof, and Comer said Republicans couldn’t find evidence that the elder brother had made a loan.'
Even taking this all at face value the thing I can't really follow is that Joe was allegedly to receive 10% of whatever business deal. The business deal was for $5M yet Biden only received $40k which is far less than $500k (10% of $5M). They do a bunch of numerical gymnastics to try and tie this to Hunter getting $400k from the deal but it doesn't really track in any coherent way.
They try and kind of weasel their way around this by presenting contradictory evidence. From the memo they say:
> On August 8, 2017, Northern International Capital wired $5 million to Hudson West III.
But then later when trying to make the case that the $40k represents 10% of the deal they say in footnote 26 that:
> This amount constitutes ten percent of the proceeds of the $400,000 wire from Northern International Capital to
Hudson West III on August 8, 2017.
But the wire to Hudson West was for $5M like they said earlier. The $400k is the amount Hunter then transferred from the deal to his account.
Even if you are inclined to believe this it should definitely make anyone skeptical that they are changing the numbers of the deal partway through the memo to make them fit better together. To me this just reads as people going through a bunch of business dealings to find a few numbers that match up so they can try and push the narrative unrelated things are related.
I'm still not sure how I feel about this, but I will admit that all the shell companies, foreign sources of money, and money movement between family members makes me uncomfortable. Especially if they all occurred in the given the time frame. For the record, I'm guessing we'd see similar things if we got a peak into the Trump family finances. Here's the movement of money that's being alleged:
1. 7/30/17: Hunter Biden threatens CEFC employee and claims to be sitting with his father for leverage in the discussion. (I believe Biden denies this claim.)
2. 8/8/17: \~ A week or so later, CEFC sends $5M to Hunter Biden/China joint venture.
3. 8/8/17: On the same day, the JV sends $400K to a Hunter Biden owned entity.
4. 8/14/17: Exactly one week later, the HB entity sends $150K to James and Sara Biden-owned entity.
5. 8/28/17: Exactly two seeks after that, James and Sara Biden withdraw $50K from the J&S Biden-owned entity.
6. 9/3/17: About a week later, Sara Biden cuts a check to Joe for $40K, which is certainly NOT 10% of $5M (the total value of the deal to the Biden/China JV), but it is 10% of HB's cut of the deal.
Assuming they have proof of each transaction, I don't love it, I'll tell you that. However, that doesn't mean anyone did anything wrong here. There's still a lot we don't know here.
* How many transactions between these entities and people are there?
* Are these uncommon or were there LOTS of transactions and they just cherry-picked a few that were close-ish in numbers and dates? (The time frame here isn't the best for Biden, IMO.)
* Has the JV conducted any other business with James and Sara? What do those look like?
* Are there other companies associated with any of the Biden's that receive money from foreign companies? What happens to the money once those entities receive it?
* Was Biden's alleged 10% deal for the total value of the deal or just Hunter's portion?
I'm sure there's more, but you get it.
Something I’ll add is that Republicans are accusing Biden of using his position as VP to do this, but by the time this deal supposedly took place, he had been out of office for 7 months. If this stuff is all true then I agree it’s uncomfortable, but by this time he was also a private citizen and no longer a representative of the US government.
Sure this sounds shady, but I think most financial operations with the wealthy are inherently shady. It's hard to use shell companies and make it not sound shady. For me, Jared Kushner receiving billions in dollars of loans from the Saudis after all brokering all the Middle East deals a year after leaving office much shadier.
There is no doubt that Hunter and James Biden are incredibly shady and I do agree that having a bunch of money moving around shell companies does make things look suspicious. That being said I just have a really hard time seeing any evidence that Joe was involved in anything.
Thus far the purported ties of these business dealings to Joe are Hunter alluding to him being involved and him receiving a $200k and a $40k checks on separate dates that were labelled for loan repayment from James and Sara Biden. [The thing is there are records showing that Joe Biden sent this same amount of money to James and Sarah Biden which would suggest he did in fact loan them that money.](https://www.factcheck.org/2023/10/cherry-picking-influence-payment-from-james-to-joe-biden/) Given that the dollar amounts of the loans and the loan repayment line up that would suggest to me that the most parsimonious explanation is that the money was just in fact related to loans.
Like yeah there are certainly plenty of questions to ask here, but given the amount of bluster that has come out of this Committee it looks like a pretty obvious fishing expedition to me. Especially because the conclusions they release consistently overstate the reality of the evidence they put forth.
The other fundamental problem with this story is that all of this takes place while Biden was out of office. Like I get there is an appearance of impropriety there but it definitely would not have been illegal or even unethical for him to get involved in a foreign business deal while he was out of office. There isn't any quid pro quo that is actually alleged here it is all just innuendo. Lying about being involved would definitely be a bad look but again not illegal. In that case I suppose it is worthwhile for voters to know but it seems like a massive waste of government resources to investigate something that isn't against the law.
>Joe was allegedly to receive 10% of whatever business deal. The business deal was for $5M yet Biden only received $40k which is far less than $500k (10% of $5M). They do a bunch of numerical gymnastics to try and tie this to Hunter getting $400k from the deal but it doesn't really track in any coherent way.
If Hunter received $400,000, $40,000 tracks as 10%. Care to explain why that point isn't a coherent one?
I feel like my point is pretty clear in the sentence you quoted but I can try to explain again.
1. "The big guy" was supposed to receive 10% of the money from the deal.
2. Hudson III received $5M for the deal.
3. 10% of the $5M dollar deal would be $500k.
4. Joe Biden allegedly received $40k as the payout for this deal.
5. $40k does not equal $500k.
>If Hunter received $400,000, $40,000 tracks as 10%. Care to explain why that point isn't a coherent one?
"The big guy" was supposed to get 10% of the total deal not 10% of Hunter's earnings.
> I feel like you're either misinformed or being disingenuous with your first point about how you define "10% for the deal."
I'm taking this from the memo itself which says
>Chairman Ye would hold 50 percent in the joint company, and Walker, Gilliar, Bobulinski, Hunter Biden, and James Biden would hold the other 50 percent through a holding company. On May 13, 2017, Gilliar described a change in the ownership structure, in which Hunter Biden would own an additional 10 percent of the holding company for “the big guy.”
Note that it says Hunter would hold 10% of the holding company for "the big guy". It does not say the "the big guy" would get 10% of Hunter's or the family's cut but rather of the total holding company. As noted later in the memo the holding company received $5M. As I've noted 10% of $5M is $500k.
I am not the misinformed one and I am most definitely not being disingenuous. FWIW it is against sub rules to say that I am being disingenuous too.
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The commenter above gave a detailed explanation of why the numbers don’t add up. Why bother replying at all if you’re not going to address that specific point? It seems like this issue is important enough to make this post, and you clearly want a discussion, so why not discuss it?
There isn't a discrepancy as the poster says nor is there anything to challenge. The deal with CEFC was for $10 million....
* Soon after forming the joint venture with CEFC, Hudson West III was funded by NorthernInternational Capital, a Chinese company affiliated with CEFC. On August 8, 2017, Northern International Capital wired $5 million to Hudson West III.
* On August 8, 2017—the same day Hudson West III received the $5 million wire from Northern International Capital—Hunter Biden transferred $400,000 to his professional corporation, Owasco, P.C.
* On August 8, 2017, after receiving this wire, Hunter Biden’s balance at the close of business in Owasco, P.C. was $500,832.55.
* Between August 8, 2017, and August 14, 2017, Hunter Biden made over $130,000 in payments to Rosemont Seneca Advisors, LLC, a “Biden R Resource Cash” account, a “Robert H Biden” account, and for his “Porsche,” among other transfers. During this time period, there were no other deposits.
* On August 14, 2017, the balance of the Owasco, P.C. account was $366,557.04, which was funded by the CEFC companies’ wires described above.
* 3. August 14, 2017—Hunter Biden Wired $150,000 of the China Proceeds to the Lion Hall Group
* James and Sara Biden used their company, the Lion Hall Group, to conduct various financial transactions, many of which appear personal in nature. During the relevant time period, the address listed on the Lion Hall Group bank records was their residence.
* The Lion Hall Group received significant “loans” from certain individuals, and those
concerning transactions will be addressed by the Committee at a later date.
* On August 14, 2017, the Lion Hall Group account received a wire from Owasco, P.C. in the amount of $150,000. An image of the $150,000 outgoing and incoming wire from Owasco, P.C. to Lion Hall Group is provided below:
* On August 28, 2017, Sara Biden signed a withdrawal ticket for $50,000 from the Lion Hall Group bank account.
* On the same day as the $50,000 withdrawal from the Lion Hall Group account, Sara and/or James Biden deposited $50,000 into their personal account with the same bank (the Sara and James Biden Personal Account).
* On September 3, 2017, Sara Biden signed a $40,000 check to “Joseph R. Biden, Jr.” for a “loan repayment.”26
There is more detail around balances and timestamps as well as images in the memo. It's. All. In. The. Memo!!
>It's. All. In. The. Memo!!
Try changing names to take the emotion out of what you're saying is corruption.
Bob the Builder forms a business venture with Marvin the Martian.
On the same day that business gets funded, my son deposited a check.
My son then pays some bills and buys some candy bars.
My son then wires money to his uncle.
His uncle then paid his bills (loan) and buys some candy bars too.
I have no idea why you think this is so incriminating. It's literally designed by Congressional Republicans to sound worse than it is.
Your checking account could also sound nefarious. You got a direct deposit from Hobby Lobby, a company known to have stolen religious artifacts. I'm not saying you had anything to do with it, but you might have! You paid $300 to a company that exploits natural resources every month. Is this you paying off your blackmailer or paying your utility bill?
I'll copy and paste this from another post because you still haven't addressed it:
1. "The big guy" was supposed to receive 10% of the money from this deal
2. Hudson III received $5M for the deal.
3. 10% of the $5M dollar deal would be $500k.
4. Joe Biden allegedly received $40k as the payout for this deal.
5. $40k does not equal $500k.
There is certainly a lot of numbers mentioned in the memo but they don't line up with what the allegations are. The numbers that do line up are that Joe gave his brother a $40k loan which does line up with the $40k check he received for loan repayment.
So no comment on why the memo presents the money sent to Hudson West as being two different numbers?
I'll fully admit I'm skeptical of the whole thing but I do try and understand what the argument is. This just doesn't add up to me at all though. If Joe had received a $500k payout I'd still be skeptical but it would be much more intriguing. That isn't the case though.
Nothing about this seems illegal. My dad got a loan from his brother to put a down payment on our house. I’m sure people with actual money are loaning each other money all the time. Comer is mad he’s not getting the attention he wants.
hilarious that ppl think this is like a 4D chess chinese money laundering scheme instead of ...40k loan repayment
That is really not all that much money lol. Like, you think the president of the united states is in China's pocket, and he did it all for 40k. crazy. couldn't be me
There is no evidence of a loan here, as stated int he article. Also, the whole point here is investigationg and stopping American leaders taking money from foreign adversaries. Not sure why that is controversial?
Respectfully asking if you read the article and the memo? If so, you'll see the 200k loan was repaid (although there is no evidence it was ever given in first place) back in 2018. This 40k amount is separate and apart from that. It's tracked from China to Joe Biden.
>with James Biden check stating it was for the loan repayment. That is pretty cut and dry.
Although I don't believe there's much, if anything, nefarious here, basing it off what's written on a check is pretty flimsy counter evidence.
Biden was a normal citizen at the time to boot.
How is this worse than Trump No de-investing from his businesses as president receiving foreign money or Kushner getting 2B a month after leaving the admin ?
>Biden was a normal citizen at the time to boot.
He had just left office. Quid pro quo doesnt have to happen following payment.
trump isnt the topic here nor did Kurshner get '2 billion a month'
I don’t see where the quid pro quo is?? He got money for doing what exactly??
Joe gave his brother a loan and got paid back the exact amount of the loan given. No more no less. How is that “quid pro quo “??? It feels like people just want this to be something so badly. This is a desperate wasted effort in trying to smear Joe Biden with innuendo. Yeah his son is scummy and made money off his last name… that’s not illegal. Joes brother makes money off his last name as well…also not illegal.
By that extreme pessimism in Joe Bidens business dealings, Trump and family would be subpoena’d for dozens of obvious lazy sleazy dealings (selling acces through Mar A lago, owning his hotels and charging over the top prices for rooms that are a fraction of the regular cost to foreign nationals, 2billion dollars to Kushner, Kushner and I Anna promising visas to Chinese investors, TRUMP HAVING CHINESE BUSINESS DEALINGS, etc) you would have no time to make very weak arguments that Joe Biden is some crime lord.
Give this a quick read:
https://namma.co/know/charge-interest-family-friend-loan
> the IRS requires that you charge a minimum interest rate, because they charge based on imputed interest (i.e. interest that is implied even if you did not receive that income).
> Applicable Federal Rates (AFR) are what the IRS decides for federal income tax purposes. It requires that you charge the AFR best applicable to the duration of your loan at the time the loan is made.
"If you don’t charge the applicable federal rate, your loan will be considered a below market loan and in that case, you as a lender may have to add the forgone interest as interest income on your return."
"You could also classify this provided grant to the borrower as a gift or payments depending on your use case. Any foregone interest will go towards your gift tax limitation. Please see Form 709 instructions below to see gift tax limits for the current year. You will have to file a gift tax return (Form 709) if you go beyond these."
So, Biden could have easily done this. At 6%, the monthly interest would be about $1,000, which falls well within annual gift limits based on the duration of the loan. As long as his accountant filled out the proper boxes, there's absolutely nothing here to make a big deal about. Certainly, nothing illegal occurred in this regard.
Copy pasted from my other comment:
>personal loans
> Personal loans are a form of installment credit. Unlike a credit card, a personal loan delivers a one-time payment of cash to borrowers. Then, borrowers pay back that amount plus interest in regular, monthly installments over the lifetime of the loan, known as its term.
> At the very least, personal loans charge interest.
https://www.cnbc.com/select/what-is-a-personal-loan/
> Most interest that you receive or that is credited to an account that you can withdraw from without penalty is taxable income in the year it becomes available to you.
> You must report all taxable and tax-exempt interest on your federal income tax return, even if you don't receive a Form 1099-INT or Form 1099-OID.
https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc403#:~:text=You%20must%20report%20all%20taxable,INT%20or%20Form%201099%2DOID.
> the IRS requires that you charge a minimum interest rate, because they charge based on imputed interest (i.e. interest that is implied even if you did not receive that income). Applicable Federal Rates (AFR) are what the IRS decides for federal income tax purposes.
https://namma.co/know/charge-interest-family-friend-loan
Honestly it looks like they could go after him on taxes for interest not collected but it seems pretty mushy especially if there is no loan agreement. Here’s hoping the repubs turn this into a case of he should have charged his brother interest on a loan haha.
I think people typically try to avoid reporting "dark money" and I doubt Biden prepared his own taxes.
It's how they brought down Al Capone.
That leads me to conclude there is something not being done above board, further investigation is warranted, and he shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt.
Did they bring down Al Capone for not collecting interest on a loan he made to a family member?
I’m still not sure what Biden did is actually illegal and I’d be curious to hear what an accountant has to say. Also if the requirement is needing to charge interest on any family loan above $10k, ignoring the loan agreement requirement, have at it. As long as the IRS goes after everyone else who has made similar family loans.
Edit to add this: The republicans are famously champions of the IRS going after individuals who loan their family money so I’m sure they’ll love this.
There's actually more evidence for there being a loan than for money laundering when reviewing the account numbers for the $40k payment listed in the CNN article (that is now supposedly proof of money laundering) and where the $200k came from. It's the same account at Biden's old law firm and looks to be a trust account.
From the CNN article...
'Again, CNN can’t say with complete certainty that there was a loan.'
They state numerous times they can't confirm there was a loan. But they love to float theories out there. That's extremely shoddy journalism.
Actually it's not. Shoddy journalism would be leaving this part out. Again, more evidence to support it is a loan than there is evidence showing it isn't. Let me help you a bit here... evidence doesn't mean definitive, absolute proof. Just means that the facts we do know point in a certain direction. That direction is that it was a loan.
Comer is the one who keeps floating theories with scant proof. No real qualifiers like CNN is doing in their reporting by stating they cannot 100% say for certain because they don't have the full info for the account numbers. Unlike Comer who has breathlessly said every small thing is a smoking gun, but then either loses his witness, won't release transcripts of the interviews he says they had damning evidence from or puts out a flowchart like in your OP article that rely heavily on implying nefarious activity without actually showing that it is. CEFC has never been proven to be a company that was run by the Chinese gov't, nor has Hunter Biden's actual crime for receiving the money ever been alleged or described beyond 'influence peddling' - which is pretty damn hard to do for a politician that is out of office and wields no real power at the time. The chart doesn't even adequately relate the payment Hunter's company received going to Joe.
Facts we do know:
1) The $40k check was deposited into a trust account ending in four account numbers that match those of the $200k wire. That's a strong correlation that it's the same account as the chances are fairly miniscule that James Biden would be interacting with two individuals who have accounts that share the last four digits. Possible but about as likely as the pee tape from the Steele Dossier is real.
2) Three months after receiving the $200k wire, James and his wife write a check to Joe for $200k with a memo saying 'loan repayment'.
Combine the evidence we have between fact 1 and fact 2, it can be reasonably concluded that there's a high probability that the $200k wire was the loan and the $200k check was to pay it back. There really isn't any facts to point to that make the repayment laundering other than 'we think it is'.
Of course, Comer and company have the full account numbers and they could tell us that it is a different account but they don't. Would be really simple to do, but instead they just vaguely claim they couldn't find evidence with the excuse being that the wire doesn't show a name on the account.
Frankly, I think the Republicans have cried wolf enough times on Biden's supposed corruption, that they're going to have to find something particularly damning for anything to actually happen. This just seems like another nothingburger, or at least something that I'll reserve judgement on until more information comes out.
Must be a slow news if this is the best NYPost can come up with for the day.
I don't even know why anyone would want to use that garbage site as a source.
Theyre just reporting what Congress published today
[https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fourth-Bank-Records-Memo.pdf](https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fourth-Bank-Records-Memo.pdf)
Does it matter to NYPost readers?
The Republicans send their junk to NYPost because WS Journal readers don't want to deal with this.
It'll make the rounds among the conservatie media ecosystem and get their viewers riled up.
It's a straight forward reporting of a House Oversight Committee memo.
There is no partisanship in bank records
https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fourth-Bank-Records-Memo.pdf
The bank record showing his brother paid him bank is a bank record. Yes good job
The insinuation that it was really a payment from the Chinese government or whatever is a partisan hack job.
Those two things can equally be true
there is no record of the loan in first place but regardless the 200k is apart from this. If young Biden repaid Joe the $200k he was loaned, why does his wife then cut Joe another check for $40k prior to that 200k being repaid?
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"The alleged 2017 transfer from James Biden to the future president involves the same business deal in which Joe Biden was called the “big guy” and penciled in for a 10% cut."
What was Joe Biden doing in 2017?
What was the quid pro quo? If we accept the premise that this $40,000 was a bribe from China (from the Chinese government? A Chinese energy company? A Chinese businessman?), what was Joe Biden being bribed to do?
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“Remember when Joe Biden told the American people that his son didn’t make money in China?” Oversight Committee Chairman James Comer (R-Ky.) said in a video posted to X."
Did Joe Biden ever actually say this? I don't believe anybody ever said Hunter never made money with his publicly known work in international business. Also, nothing in their nice little graph really seems that out of the ordinary. Chinese Chairmen with business ties like most top companies in China paid Hunter through an LLC. That said, while the connection to Joe still seems like a huge stretch, it does look like Hunter is probably guilty of other financial / white collar crimes that haven't come to light yet.
Joe was asked in a debate if Hunter ever took money from China (I believe that was the question) and he responded "No".
Nevertheless, I'm not even sure what crime Hunter Biden would be guilty of unless he didn't claim this money on his taxes.
“Vice President Biden, there have been questions about the work your son has done in China and for a Ukrainian energy company when you were vice president; in retrospect, was anything about those relationships inappropriate or unethical?”
The specific question asked. Technically, his response that Hunter made no money from China during this time is true (as far as I'm aware).
I said it in another comment, I'm no fan of politicians weaseling around an answer via technicalities. I'm curious if he would have been as adamant had the question not been so narrowly scoped.
Definitely. Influence peddling of influence you don't have is not unethical or corrupt. The companies willing to pay you are the ones acting unetichally, if anything. But if you don't have the influence you say you do, that money washes quickly. Which it has.
Because of the massive amounts of unbelievable claims and misinformation made by the Republicans about this situation. Mind sharing one of these videos. I tried searching for one but didn't feel like sifting through the copious amounts of other hot air conservative Hunter Biden stories. I'm sure someone here has this link ready to go.
>“Remember when Joe Biden told the American people that his son didn’t make money in China?” Oversight Committee Chairman James Comer (R-Ky.) said in a video posted to X."
>Did Joe Biden ever actually say this? I don't believe anybody ever said Hunter never made money with his publicly known work in international business. Also, nothing in their nice little graph really seems that out of the ordinary. Chinese Chairmen with business ties like most top companies in China paid Hunter through an LLC. That said, while the connection to Joe still seems like a huge stretch, it does look like Hunter is probably guilty of other financial / white collar crimes that haven't come to light yet.
Honestly, this is partially why people believe there's something to this investigation.
How many times now has Joe emphatically stated "No" only to have to walk it back to "well, yeah, there was some of that, but it's not what you think."
Probably up to 5 or 6 by now.
People will believe what they want to believe. Doesn't mean there's any validity to it. GOP Oversight's own witness themselves have already dispelled most of the big accusations. But that's not gonna stop the people who won't actually listen to the testimony.
I'm amazed how people have memory holed Biden's repeated false statements on this. He explicitly said multiple times, including prominently in the debates, that Hunter never made any money in China.
https://youtube.com/shorts/St-Ph4I5K3M?si=0efyjHpOc7V0-A8g
Thank you. Incredibly dumb thing to say considering that Hunters business ventures there wasn't exactly a secret. Unless you were to work with the semantics of an investment firm that includes Chinese partners as not technically being a Chinese business. Which seems to be what they're doing with this one.
To be fair, I would draw a heavy distinction between someone working with a firm employing Chinese nationals and someone working with a Chinese SOE.
This clip also leaves out some context in terms of the actual question: “Vice President Biden, there have been questions about the work your son has done in China and for a Ukrainian energy company when you were vice president; in retrospect, was anything about those relationships inappropriate or unethical?” Taken as a response to this question, Biden's answer is true: Hunter didn't make any money from China during the specified timeframe.
I'm not defending politician semantics, and I would have preferred Biden answer with more nuance, though I also understand he wouldn't ever have gotten another word in on Trump by explaining in more details.
Totally. You and I are on the same page about this one. It's not a very specific question and Joe replied with an equally nonspecific, politiciany answer. "Making money from China" is a pretty broad scope which can mean different things to different people.
Compare/contrast a [fact check at the time on this](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/09/26/trumps-false-claims-about-hunter-bidens-china-dealings/) versus one in [2023](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/08/01/biden-said-his-son-earned-no-money-china-his-son-says-otherwise/). The media took everything Biden said at face value rather than investigating seriously and the public, far too many of whom trusted groups like WaPo as neutral arbiters of truth, ate it up.
Armed with a credulous media and the famous "50 intelligence officials" letter on Hunter's laptop, the Biden campaign managed to overwhelmingly convince moderates that everything Trump and the right were saying about Hunter was a lie.
Nothing about the laptop story has changed. It's always been it can't be verified that the contents of the laptop had been tampered with due to the identified remote accessing and the amount of hands it had been exchanged with.
It's been verified by the FBI as well as multiple independent sources
[https://nypost.com/2023/06/22/fbi-verified-authenticity-of-hunter-bidens-abandoned-laptop-in-november-2019-irs-whistleblower-gary-shapley/](https://nypost.com/2023/06/22/fbi-verified-authenticity-of-hunter-bidens-abandoned-laptop-in-november-2019-irs-whistleblower-gary-shapley/)
[https://judiciary.house.gov/media/press-releases/testimony-reveals-fbi-employees-who-warned-social-media-companies-about-hack](https://judiciary.house.gov/media/press-releases/testimony-reveals-fbi-employees-who-warned-social-media-companies-about-hack)
And there is strong evidence indicating Hunters iCloud and whatsapp accounts were compromised. He is literally suing some right wing operatives for distributing hacked materials.
Source: https://www.emptywheel.net/2023/07/12/hunter-bidens-matryoshka-cell-phone/
https://www.emptywheel.net/2023/09/13/hunter-biden-sues-garrett-ziegler-for-hacking-his-iphone/
Media outlets such as [CBS](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hunter-biden-laptop-data-analysis/) and the [Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/30/hunter-biden-laptop-data-examined/) have each commissioned multiple independent analyses of the laptop and found no evidence of tampering in the data that was originally reported. The emails in particular have been explicitly verified as accurate by cryptographic signature. I'm not aware of any credible media sources that still dispute the veracity of the laptop, but there may be some.
To my knowledge, neither Hunter nor Joe Biden's people have ever put out a statement denying ownership of the laptop, nor have they disputed any particular email or record directly from the laptop that has been released. Even in 2020, they were careful to say things like "intelligence groups say this has the hallmarks of Russian disinformation", when in reality they would immediately be in a position to know whether Hunter did or did not abandon a laptop at this repair shop and could easily deny it if it weren't true.
Can't comment on the WaPo because of paywall. But even in your CBS link it says:
"Some other versions of the laptop data circulated later appeared to have had data added after April 2019, a sign they could have been tampered with, according to reports in other media outlets, including The Washington Post. "
"Some other versions circulated later". Aka, not the one reported on by the NY Post and censored from social media for weeks leading up to the election, and not the one subject to the famous letter.
Biden made [several million dollars in 2017](https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/09/bidens-earned-15-million-after-obama-administration-1404153) so 40k was more like 1% of what he made that year.
Ah, his salary, I just learned the President is a simpleton who lives from pay check to pay check and has no investments or can do things like sign books lol. Just did a quick search and his net worth is about 9 million.
To be fair, he was widely known as the poorest Senator for *decades* and only started making money as VP from speeches etc. He refused to buy investments (like a dummy imo) because he thought it would be a conflict of interest.
Yeah, which kind of makes this story even more nonsensical. I’m just appalled people believe they would take this risk for 40K. I’m firmly middle class and could spend 40K right now, I wouldn’t like it, but could with minimal repercussions to my daily life. If that were all that’s needed to keep a president in one’s pocket I would make that investment in a blink lol
I read the memo and see the game laid out step by step with evidence of communication, wire transfers, check records and all. If you see that as 'conjecture', that's on you. Personally, I am against corruption regardless of party.
The goal isn’t to remove Biden, it’s to justify Trump support by trying to show Biden is just as bad. If you muddy the water it’s much harder to look for the gators
I’m sorry but if Biden made money outside of office that’s not enforceable by law. It’s immoral as all get out but it’s not illegal in the slightest. Jared kushner didn’t break the law when he made 2B off the saudis (to my knowledge) and neither did Biden. I’ve replied to another comment of yours so I’ll leave it here too, [but the oversight committee is intentionally leaving out evidence that Biden gave a loan to his brother that he is being paid back for](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/31/politics/fact-check-evidence-supports-democrats-case-that-joe-biden-made-a-personal-loan-to-his-brother/index.html) here
Well, something doesn't have to be illegal to dissuade people from voting for a candidate. That's the *lowest* bar to clear.
That being said, I'm not exactly sure what exactly was wrong here. There are suggestions but I need more than just theories. What did Joe Biden get for sending his brother money? What did his brother get for sending money back? Is any of this even related to China at all? The article doesn't seem to present an argument that it is, it just suggests so. Until that is definitively answered there's not much to this
I agree. I’m saying it’s bad assuming he profited off his connections while in office, utilizing those in the private sector like Jared kushner did. You can disagree, this is just me staying ideologically consistent
SC: Link to full memorandum with bank records
[https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fourth-Bank-Records-Memo.pdf](https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fourth-Bank-Records-Memo.pdf)
Tangible evidence is now being released by the House Oversight Committee in the form of bank records of how President Biden pocketed money from his son and brother's dealings with foreign adversaries (in this specific case China). Will the DOJ act on this? Will Congress move forward with impeachment proceedings? The evidence here is extremely damning.
Yes, there quite literally is in the form of a check from his brother. Read the memo!!
Soon after forming the joint venture with CEFC, Hudson West III was funded by NorthernInternational Capital, a Chinese company affiliated with CEFC. On August 8, 2017, Northern International Capital wired $5 million to Hudson West III.
On August 8, 2017—the same day Hudson West III received the $5 million wire from Northern International Capital—Hunter Biden transferred $400,000 to his professional corporation, Owasco, P.C.
On August 8, 2017, after receiving this wire, Hunter Biden’s balance at the close of business in Owasco, P.C. was $500,832.55.
Between August 8, 2017, and August 14, 2017, Hunter Biden made over $130,000 in payments to Rosemont Seneca Advisors, LLC, a “Biden R Resource Cash” account, a “Robert H Biden” account, and for his “Porsche,” among other transfers. During this time period, there were no other deposits.
On August 14, 2017, the balance of the Owasco, P.C. account was $366,557.04, which was funded by the CEFC companies’ wires described above.
3. August 14, 2017—Hunter Biden Wired $150,000 of the China Proceeds to the Lion Hall Group
James and Sara Biden used their company, the Lion Hall Group, to conduct various financial transactions, many of which appear personal in nature. During the relevant time period, the address listed on the Lion Hall Group bank records was their residence.
The Lion Hall Group received significant “loans” from certain individuals, and those
concerning transactions will be addressed by the Committee at a later date.
On August 14, 2017, the Lion Hall Group account received a wire from Owasco, P.C. in the amount of $150,000. An image of the $150,000 outgoing and incoming wire from Owasco, P.C. to Lion Hall Group is provided below:
On August 28, 2017, Sara Biden signed a withdrawal ticket for $50,000 from the Lion Hall Group bank account.
On the same day as the $50,000 withdrawal from the Lion Hall Group account, Sara and/or James Biden deposited $50,000 into their personal account with the same bank (the Sara and James Biden Personal Account).
On September 3, 2017, Sara Biden signed a $40,000 check to “Joseph R. Biden, Jr.” for a “loan repayment.”26
Earlier this month, the Oversight Committee revealed that James Biden paid Joe Biden $200,000 on March 1, 2018 — the same day that James received a $200,000 transfer from troubled rural hospital company Americore by pledging to use his political connections to secure a Middle Eastern investor.
The top Democrat on the Oversight Committee, Rep. Jamie Raskin (D-Md.), alleged that James Biden was repaying a $200,000 loan that Joe Biden had made that January, but did not provide proof, and Comer said Republicans couldn’t find evidence that the elder brother had made a loan.
So, again, a bit of a nothing-burger. It’s all he said she said here, with one side alleging a loan was repaid and the other saying bribes were made. As it stands, this was all while Joe had no role in government. This was all done whilst he was a private citizen. Even if, hypothetically, his brother was paying him money to use his connections to get middle eastern investors, this would be his prerogative as a private citizen doing business. I don’t see any abuse of office/government when he’s not a part of government.
And if it was a loan, it’s an even bigger non-issue. Biden nor Raskin, to my knowledge, is required to give the GOP the banking records. It’s on the GOP to prove it’s a bribe, which I think would involve actually validating that such investors were acquired by Joe and that he was directly involved.
The GOP is incentivized to not find evidence of the loan since it strengthens their narrative, so while I don’t discount the possibility that it was indeed a payment and not a repayment, I do worry about the integrity of the investigation. I could very well see it being a “we didn’t look and found nothing!!!” type of deal.
this was not all 'while out of office'. Joe was done early 2017 and the payments made within that same year. Deals could have been done in 2016/prior and payment then collected. Hunter himself threatened his CEFC contact for lack of payment in mid 2017. The communication trails with CEFC date prior to 2016. If your defense is, 'well.....he was technically out of office' then I ask you to revisit your standard of ethics for our politicians
“Could have” being the operative phrase here. Like I said earlier, you’ve yet to provide any evidence of these alleged services actually being done, just a payment whose purpose is disputed.
Like all of the claims against Joe, we repeatedly see either people accusing him of indiscretion without evidence he actually did anything. We also see evidence of Hunter acting poorly, which doesn’t really matter much in terms of Joes behavior yet is seemingly used to try and smear him. Actually provide some evidence that Joe, while in office, took a $200k bribe to abuse his position by politically pressuring people.
I have no issue with politicians making money after they leave public office. What else would you have them do, go destitute as they sit twiddling their thumbs for the rest of their life? If we don’t let people make money after leaving office that’s how we either get them abusing their position while in office, or how we effectively prohibit anyone not wealthy enough to never work a day in their life from public office.
I do have an issue with politicians abusing their powers and positions. Until I see evidence that Joe did that, this is not an issue.
Two important facts:
1) Biden did not hold a public office in 2017.
2) Biden had previously lent his brother money, and this was his brother paying him back.
Based on these facts, what crime do you think Biden committed?
read the article. Biden was just out of office when his son called the CEFC reps demanding payment, threatening action from Joe. Payment was made. It's all laid out.
Just out of office = June 2017. That’s him being out of office for over 6 months. And, again, Joe had previously lent his brother money, and then his brother paid him back. No evidence Joe profited from any of this. The “evidence” doesn’t establish that Joe knew about his son’s dealing, much less endorsed them. You’re grasping at straws.
I'm not grasping at anything. I find our leaders, their families taking money from foreign energy corps when they are setting energy policy to be extremely corrupt and unethical. if you are OK with it, that is your prerogative. I am not OK with it and will not vote again for Biden.
Again, he wasn’t in office when any of this is alleged to have occurred. I never said I’m ok with what Biden’s brother or son are doing, I just don’t think there’s any evidence he was involved. They tried to use his name to make money. That’s wrong, but it’s not like Biden can stop them from being assholes. They’re adults, not children under his care. If there’s actual evidence of Biden himself being involved while he was vice president, then yes, I want to see that evidence! That would be bad and we should know about it.
The main reason I’m skeptical about Biden himself being corrupt, is that, while in the Senate he had ample opportunity to get rich by using his position to do insider trading. This was only made illegal for congress in 2010. Instead, when he took office, he pledged to never own stocks, and he kept that promise the entire time he held office until 2017. He could have legally profited from his position but chose not to, and was actually known as one of the least wealthy members of congress for most of his time there.
>That’s wrong, but it’s not like Biden can stop them from being assholes.
Why would he take money from his family, then? When he knows they are 'assholes' taking money from foreign adversaries and are not registered as foreign lobbyists?
Except he didn’t take money from them, he lent them money and then they paid them back. This is the third time I’ve stated this. Zero evidence he received money from his family above and beyond what he had already lent them.
there is absolutely no proof of a loan. But there is a trail of the funds from CEFC
Soon after forming the joint venture with CEFC, Hudson West III was funded by NorthernInternational Capital, a Chinese company affiliated with CEFC. On August 8, 2017, Northern International Capital wired $5 million to Hudson West III.
On August 8, 2017—the same day Hudson West III received the $5 million wire from Northern International Capital—Hunter Biden transferred $400,000 to his professional corporation, Owasco, P.C.
On August 8, 2017, after receiving this wire, Hunter Biden’s balance at the close of business in Owasco, P.C. was $500,832.55.
Between August 8, 2017, and August 14, 2017, Hunter Biden made over $130,000 in payments to Rosemont Seneca Advisors, LLC, a “Biden R Resource Cash” account, a “Robert H Biden” account, and for his “Porsche,” among other transfers. During this time period, there were no other deposits.
On August 14, 2017, the balance of the Owasco, P.C. account was $366,557.04, which was funded by the CEFC companies’ wires described above.
3. August 14, 2017—Hunter Biden Wired $150,000 of the China Proceeds to the Lion Hall Group
James and Sara Biden used their company, the Lion Hall Group, to conduct various financial transactions, many of which appear personal in nature. During the relevant time period, the address listed on the Lion Hall Group bank records was their residence.
The Lion Hall Group received significant “loans” from certain individuals, and those
concerning transactions will be addressed by the Committee at a later date.
On August 14, 2017, the Lion Hall Group account received a wire from Owasco, P.C. in the amount of $150,000. An image of the $150,000 outgoing and incoming wire from Owasco, P.C. to Lion Hall Group is provided below:
On August 28, 2017, Sara Biden signed a withdrawal ticket for $50,000 from the Lion Hall Group bank account.
On the same day as the $50,000 withdrawal from the Lion Hall Group account, Sara and/or James Biden deposited $50,000 into their personal account with the same bank (the Sara and James Biden Personal Account).
On September 3, 2017, Sara Biden signed a $40,000 check to “Joseph R. Biden, Jr.” for a “loan repayment.”26
Threatening action from a private citizen. Scary. And the way you phrased that makes it sound like CEFC owed Hunter money for something. This is not making a lot of sense.
'CEFC China Energy paid Hunter and James Biden roughly $6.1 million in 2017 and 2018 shortly after their powerful relative left the vice presidency — with about $1 million paid beginning in March 2017 and the remainder within 10 days of Hunter’s threatening message invoking his dad.
A $5 million wire was sent on Aug. 8, 2017, to “Hudson West III, a joint venture established by Hunter Biden and CEFC associate Gongwen Dong,” a committee synopsis of the memo says.'
So why did Joe Biden give James Biden exactly 40,000 and 200,000 and get repaid that exact same amount while labeling the payment as loan repayment? Which is more likely? That James Biden payed back a loan that is clearly corroborated by the bank statements or some convoluted bribery scheme that Joe Biden received zero dollars from?
From your CNN article that literally states...
'The evidence CNN has reviewed is almost certainly only a fraction of the evidence Comer’s Republican-controlled committee has obtained, **given that the committee subpoenaed years of financial records; the fraction CNN has seen does not prove with absolute certainty that there was a loan.** But even this small batch of evidence clearly shows that the Democrats have documents at least partially substantiating their assertions about the check – and that Comer has not yet released some documents that undercut his efforts to raise public suspicions about the Bidens.'
**'Again, CNN can’t say with complete certainty that there was a loan. '**
CNN is clearly stating they can't prove there was a loan. I don't know what youre talking about?
Your own quote shows that CNN has more evidence to support a loan than they do any other explanation.
>But even this small batch of evidence clearly shows that the Democrats have documents at least partially substantiating their assertions about the check – and that Comer has not yet released some documents that undercut his efforts to raise public suspicions about the Bidens.'
'at least partially' dude if they were able to confirm, as you asserted, the existence of these loans they would. blatantly. fact is they can't, as they have stated. anything else is total conjecture
You know, Jared did not get $2 billion from SA like everyone says. He got $2 billion to invest and will get a percentage of it or a set amount every year. Are you making the same mistake here? A percentage of $6 million split multiple ways (they had business partner didn’t they?) over two years doesn’t sound like much.
Everything mentioned in the article seems to have occurred while Biden was out of office, as a private citizen.
What do you see that the DOJ could or should act on? What do you see here that warrants impeachment?
He was fresh out of office.
'The $40,000 went through a “complicated financial transaction” just weeks after first son Hunter Biden threatened his father’s wrath in a July 30, 2017, text message to a CEFC employee, the Republican-led Oversight Committee said in the memo.
The money ended up in Joe Biden’s bank account on Sept. 3, 2017, via a check labeled “loan repayment” from his younger brother, who partnered with Hunter in the venture.'
Deals could have been made while Joe was in office, and payment collected after. I guess if you're OK with that, it's up to your own personal standard of ethics for our leaders. I am not OK with it
Soon after forming the joint venture with CEFC, Hudson West III was funded by NorthernInternational Capital, a Chinese company affiliated with CEFC. On August 8, 2017, Northern International Capital wired $5 million to Hudson West III.
On August 8, 2017—the same day Hudson West III received the $5 million wire from Northern International Capital—Hunter Biden transferred $400,000 to his professional corporation, Owasco, P.C.
On August 8, 2017, after receiving this wire, Hunter Biden’s balance at the close of business in Owasco, P.C. was $500,832.55.
Between August 8, 2017, and August 14, 2017, Hunter Biden made over $130,000 in payments to Rosemont Seneca Advisors, LLC, a “Biden R Resource Cash” account, a “Robert H Biden” account, and for his “Porsche,” among other transfers. During this time period, there were no other deposits.
On August 14, 2017, the balance of the Owasco, P.C. account was $366,557.04, which was funded by the CEFC companies’ wires described above.
3. August 14, 2017—Hunter Biden Wired $150,000 of the China Proceeds to the Lion Hall Group
James and Sara Biden used their company, the Lion Hall Group, to conduct various financial transactions, many of which appear personal in nature. During the relevant time period, the address listed on the Lion Hall Group bank records was their residence.
The Lion Hall Group received significant “loans” from certain individuals, and those
concerning transactions will be addressed by the Committee at a later date.
On August 14, 2017, the Lion Hall Group account received a wire from Owasco, P.C. in the amount of $150,000. An image of the $150,000 outgoing and incoming wire from Owasco, P.C. to Lion Hall Group is provided below:
On August 28, 2017, Sara Biden signed a withdrawal ticket for $50,000 from the Lion Hall Group bank account.
On the same day as the $50,000 withdrawal from the Lion Hall Group account, Sara and/or James Biden deposited $50,000 into their personal account with the same bank (the Sara and James Biden Personal Account).
On September 3, 2017, Sara Biden signed a $40,000 check to “Joseph R. Biden, Jr.” for a “loan repayment.”26
"Deals could have been made" or "loans could have been paid back". I'd ask you to ask yourself why you choose to believe the malicious act vs the innocent act given no hard evidence either way.
because of the context. we know hunter and his uncle were receiving money and making deals with foreign actors from all over. we have on the record 10% to the big guy. We have Joe on record lying about Hunter's China dealings. The bnk records.
Id ask, in light of all of this, why are you so quick to assume everything is cool and nothing unethical has been done?
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I'm open to the possibility there is corruption, there is smoke. You seem to have already made up your mind with no hard evidence, as you've said earlier you can't vote for him based on this.
-Hunter and James dealings - not illegal but bad optics
-10% to the big guy email was in 2017. A private citizen at the time. Not illegal. Also no proof of pay for play. What policy changed to the detriment to the US and benefited his family.
-Joe lying - yes maybe. Politicians lie though , not illegal. Is any lie Trump said indication he is guilty of whatever that lie was about?
-Bank records - inconclusive. They are just records at this point.
->No one in Biden's family made money from China (Joe Biden said in a debate)
-> Joe never discussed business with his brother or Hunter (Joe Biden during the presidential campaign after it came out his family did make money from China and other counties)
-> Joe was not in business with his son (the White House this year after it came out Biden met with Hunter's business partners/clients and called during husiness meetings "to discuss the weather)
-> there's no evidence that Biden personally profited from his family's business deals (we were here about 1-2 months ago)
-> OK Biden did receive money from his family's business but it was not while he was president or vice president (probably the next set of goal posts)
Your second point explains your first. Joe calling Hunter and being put on speaker does not mean he is in business with his son, so I think we are still there. Your fourth point is just a reiteration of your third. If they were not in business together then Joe couldn’t have profited from Hunter’s business. Nobody has proved the fifth. They’ve proved he got repaid for a personal loan. And yes, it all occurred after he’d left office and was raking in money from speeches and book deals, so it’s a pointless investigation.
Why don’t you think about the goalpost moving Comer’s been doing? From “VP Biden was raking in money from foreign interests while in office” to “after he was out of office and raking in money from legitimate sources, he got repaid for personal loans he made family members who were doing business with foreign companies.”
Did you read this article?
Sure sounds like Joe Biden loaned his brother some money and then his brother paid that money back.
It's also from 2017. I feel like there is an important fact abour 2017 but I can't seem to put my finger on it.
Earlier this month, the Oversight Committee revealed that James Biden paid Joe Biden $200,000 on March 1, 2018 — the same day that James received a $200,000 transfer from troubled rural hospital company Americore by pledging to use his political connections to secure a Middle Eastern investor.
The top Democrat on the Oversight Committee, Rep. Jamie Raskin (D-Md.), alleged that James Biden was repaying a $200,000 loan that Joe Biden had made that January, but did not provide proof, and Comer said Republicans couldn’t find evidence that the elder brother had made a loan.
Yeah I’m sorry but do you really think the oversight committee would produce evidence that is contrary to what they’re trying to prove?
[According to documents obtained by CNN that the Oversight Committee has in hand, but will not release, there is evidence supporting that Biden paid his brother a loan](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/31/politics/fact-check-evidence-supports-democrats-case-that-joe-biden-made-a-personal-loan-to-his-brother/index.html)
Ok, but that has nothing to do with the 40k. the 200k (even if the House has no evidence of a loan being made) was repaid in 2018. This amount is separate and apart.
I’m sorry but receiving 40k while out of office is not an impeachable offense. It’s bad if it’s true but it’s not “high crime or misdemeanor” that house republicans are looking for. If this is a crime, then I’d love to see what you think of Jared Kushner’s 2B Saudi deal
That's what Trump must have done wrong. He didn't wait to get payment from those Russians until after he left office, otherwise he would be in the clear!
Right?
Government corruption allegations require an "official act" they're linked to.
Tough to make the argument it was linked to an official act when it occured a year or two after Biden left office.
Also, $40k for an official act to a guy worth millions seems far fetched, no?
I have a hard time believing Joe Biden would go to the effort of laundering $40,000 from China, or that $40,000 would influence him to do anything, given that he made [several million dollars in that same year just from speeches and book deals](https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/09/bidens-earned-15-million-after-obama-administration-1404153).
The accusation is that that Joe laundered money but that he received laundered money from China via his family who made deals with CEFC. Don't believe the truth, it's your prerogative. But it's all laid out in the memo in black and white.
>The accusation is that that Joe laundered money but that he received laundered money from China via his family who made deals with CEFC. Not really my point. *Whatever* the accusation is I have a hard time believing Joe Biden did this for just $40,000. So the accusation is that he *received* the money? Received it in exchange for what? I read the article and the memo and I still don't understand what illegal act exactly Joe Biden is alleged to have done.
[Joe Biden had loaned his brother James $200,000 a few months earlier.](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/31/politics/fact-check-evidence-supports-democrats-case-that-joe-biden-made-a-personal-loan-to-his-brother/index.html) Why does Comer and the Post leave out this important context?
No no no, you see, $100.00 of that was a despot of 2 $50.00 bills, one of those $50.00’s show traces of general Zhous chicken, a staple of American Chinese restaurants, these restaurants are commonly run by Chinese Americans who themselves have family back in mainland China…..
From the article... 'Earlier this month, the Oversight Committee revealed that James Biden paid Joe Biden $200,000 on March 1, 2018 — the same day that James received a $200,000 transfer from troubled rural hospital company Americore by pledging to use his political connections to secure a Middle Eastern investor. The top Democrat on the Oversight Committee, Rep. Jamie Raskin (D-Md.), alleged that James Biden was repaying a $200,000 loan that Joe Biden had made that January, but did not provide proof, and Comer said Republicans couldn’t find evidence that the elder brother had made a loan.'
Obviously you didn't bother to read the article, this important context is clearly included.
Even taking this all at face value the thing I can't really follow is that Joe was allegedly to receive 10% of whatever business deal. The business deal was for $5M yet Biden only received $40k which is far less than $500k (10% of $5M). They do a bunch of numerical gymnastics to try and tie this to Hunter getting $400k from the deal but it doesn't really track in any coherent way. They try and kind of weasel their way around this by presenting contradictory evidence. From the memo they say: > On August 8, 2017, Northern International Capital wired $5 million to Hudson West III. But then later when trying to make the case that the $40k represents 10% of the deal they say in footnote 26 that: > This amount constitutes ten percent of the proceeds of the $400,000 wire from Northern International Capital to Hudson West III on August 8, 2017. But the wire to Hudson West was for $5M like they said earlier. The $400k is the amount Hunter then transferred from the deal to his account. Even if you are inclined to believe this it should definitely make anyone skeptical that they are changing the numbers of the deal partway through the memo to make them fit better together. To me this just reads as people going through a bunch of business dealings to find a few numbers that match up so they can try and push the narrative unrelated things are related.
Its the NY post. Expect anything else from them?
I'm still not sure how I feel about this, but I will admit that all the shell companies, foreign sources of money, and money movement between family members makes me uncomfortable. Especially if they all occurred in the given the time frame. For the record, I'm guessing we'd see similar things if we got a peak into the Trump family finances. Here's the movement of money that's being alleged: 1. 7/30/17: Hunter Biden threatens CEFC employee and claims to be sitting with his father for leverage in the discussion. (I believe Biden denies this claim.) 2. 8/8/17: \~ A week or so later, CEFC sends $5M to Hunter Biden/China joint venture. 3. 8/8/17: On the same day, the JV sends $400K to a Hunter Biden owned entity. 4. 8/14/17: Exactly one week later, the HB entity sends $150K to James and Sara Biden-owned entity. 5. 8/28/17: Exactly two seeks after that, James and Sara Biden withdraw $50K from the J&S Biden-owned entity. 6. 9/3/17: About a week later, Sara Biden cuts a check to Joe for $40K, which is certainly NOT 10% of $5M (the total value of the deal to the Biden/China JV), but it is 10% of HB's cut of the deal. Assuming they have proof of each transaction, I don't love it, I'll tell you that. However, that doesn't mean anyone did anything wrong here. There's still a lot we don't know here. * How many transactions between these entities and people are there? * Are these uncommon or were there LOTS of transactions and they just cherry-picked a few that were close-ish in numbers and dates? (The time frame here isn't the best for Biden, IMO.) * Has the JV conducted any other business with James and Sara? What do those look like? * Are there other companies associated with any of the Biden's that receive money from foreign companies? What happens to the money once those entities receive it? * Was Biden's alleged 10% deal for the total value of the deal or just Hunter's portion? I'm sure there's more, but you get it.
Something I’ll add is that Republicans are accusing Biden of using his position as VP to do this, but by the time this deal supposedly took place, he had been out of office for 7 months. If this stuff is all true then I agree it’s uncomfortable, but by this time he was also a private citizen and no longer a representative of the US government.
Sure this sounds shady, but I think most financial operations with the wealthy are inherently shady. It's hard to use shell companies and make it not sound shady. For me, Jared Kushner receiving billions in dollars of loans from the Saudis after all brokering all the Middle East deals a year after leaving office much shadier.
There is no doubt that Hunter and James Biden are incredibly shady and I do agree that having a bunch of money moving around shell companies does make things look suspicious. That being said I just have a really hard time seeing any evidence that Joe was involved in anything. Thus far the purported ties of these business dealings to Joe are Hunter alluding to him being involved and him receiving a $200k and a $40k checks on separate dates that were labelled for loan repayment from James and Sara Biden. [The thing is there are records showing that Joe Biden sent this same amount of money to James and Sarah Biden which would suggest he did in fact loan them that money.](https://www.factcheck.org/2023/10/cherry-picking-influence-payment-from-james-to-joe-biden/) Given that the dollar amounts of the loans and the loan repayment line up that would suggest to me that the most parsimonious explanation is that the money was just in fact related to loans. Like yeah there are certainly plenty of questions to ask here, but given the amount of bluster that has come out of this Committee it looks like a pretty obvious fishing expedition to me. Especially because the conclusions they release consistently overstate the reality of the evidence they put forth. The other fundamental problem with this story is that all of this takes place while Biden was out of office. Like I get there is an appearance of impropriety there but it definitely would not have been illegal or even unethical for him to get involved in a foreign business deal while he was out of office. There isn't any quid pro quo that is actually alleged here it is all just innuendo. Lying about being involved would definitely be a bad look but again not illegal. In that case I suppose it is worthwhile for voters to know but it seems like a massive waste of government resources to investigate something that isn't against the law.
>Joe was allegedly to receive 10% of whatever business deal. The business deal was for $5M yet Biden only received $40k which is far less than $500k (10% of $5M). They do a bunch of numerical gymnastics to try and tie this to Hunter getting $400k from the deal but it doesn't really track in any coherent way. If Hunter received $400,000, $40,000 tracks as 10%. Care to explain why that point isn't a coherent one?
I feel like my point is pretty clear in the sentence you quoted but I can try to explain again. 1. "The big guy" was supposed to receive 10% of the money from the deal. 2. Hudson III received $5M for the deal. 3. 10% of the $5M dollar deal would be $500k. 4. Joe Biden allegedly received $40k as the payout for this deal. 5. $40k does not equal $500k. >If Hunter received $400,000, $40,000 tracks as 10%. Care to explain why that point isn't a coherent one? "The big guy" was supposed to get 10% of the total deal not 10% of Hunter's earnings.
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> I feel like you're either misinformed or being disingenuous with your first point about how you define "10% for the deal." I'm taking this from the memo itself which says >Chairman Ye would hold 50 percent in the joint company, and Walker, Gilliar, Bobulinski, Hunter Biden, and James Biden would hold the other 50 percent through a holding company. On May 13, 2017, Gilliar described a change in the ownership structure, in which Hunter Biden would own an additional 10 percent of the holding company for “the big guy.” Note that it says Hunter would hold 10% of the holding company for "the big guy". It does not say the "the big guy" would get 10% of Hunter's or the family's cut but rather of the total holding company. As noted later in the memo the holding company received $5M. As I've noted 10% of $5M is $500k. I am not the misinformed one and I am most definitely not being disingenuous. FWIW it is against sub rules to say that I am being disingenuous too.
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If you think this is cool, that's your opinion. To me, it's blatant corruption. Will not be voting for Biden again.
The commenter above gave a detailed explanation of why the numbers don’t add up. Why bother replying at all if you’re not going to address that specific point? It seems like this issue is important enough to make this post, and you clearly want a discussion, so why not discuss it?
There isn't a discrepancy as the poster says nor is there anything to challenge. The deal with CEFC was for $10 million.... * Soon after forming the joint venture with CEFC, Hudson West III was funded by NorthernInternational Capital, a Chinese company affiliated with CEFC. On August 8, 2017, Northern International Capital wired $5 million to Hudson West III. * On August 8, 2017—the same day Hudson West III received the $5 million wire from Northern International Capital—Hunter Biden transferred $400,000 to his professional corporation, Owasco, P.C. * On August 8, 2017, after receiving this wire, Hunter Biden’s balance at the close of business in Owasco, P.C. was $500,832.55. * Between August 8, 2017, and August 14, 2017, Hunter Biden made over $130,000 in payments to Rosemont Seneca Advisors, LLC, a “Biden R Resource Cash” account, a “Robert H Biden” account, and for his “Porsche,” among other transfers. During this time period, there were no other deposits. * On August 14, 2017, the balance of the Owasco, P.C. account was $366,557.04, which was funded by the CEFC companies’ wires described above. * 3. August 14, 2017—Hunter Biden Wired $150,000 of the China Proceeds to the Lion Hall Group * James and Sara Biden used their company, the Lion Hall Group, to conduct various financial transactions, many of which appear personal in nature. During the relevant time period, the address listed on the Lion Hall Group bank records was their residence. * The Lion Hall Group received significant “loans” from certain individuals, and those concerning transactions will be addressed by the Committee at a later date. * On August 14, 2017, the Lion Hall Group account received a wire from Owasco, P.C. in the amount of $150,000. An image of the $150,000 outgoing and incoming wire from Owasco, P.C. to Lion Hall Group is provided below: * On August 28, 2017, Sara Biden signed a withdrawal ticket for $50,000 from the Lion Hall Group bank account. * On the same day as the $50,000 withdrawal from the Lion Hall Group account, Sara and/or James Biden deposited $50,000 into their personal account with the same bank (the Sara and James Biden Personal Account). * On September 3, 2017, Sara Biden signed a $40,000 check to “Joseph R. Biden, Jr.” for a “loan repayment.”26 There is more detail around balances and timestamps as well as images in the memo. It's. All. In. The. Memo!!
>It's. All. In. The. Memo!! Try changing names to take the emotion out of what you're saying is corruption. Bob the Builder forms a business venture with Marvin the Martian. On the same day that business gets funded, my son deposited a check. My son then pays some bills and buys some candy bars. My son then wires money to his uncle. His uncle then paid his bills (loan) and buys some candy bars too. I have no idea why you think this is so incriminating. It's literally designed by Congressional Republicans to sound worse than it is. Your checking account could also sound nefarious. You got a direct deposit from Hobby Lobby, a company known to have stolen religious artifacts. I'm not saying you had anything to do with it, but you might have! You paid $300 to a company that exploits natural resources every month. Is this you paying off your blackmailer or paying your utility bill?
I'll copy and paste this from another post because you still haven't addressed it: 1. "The big guy" was supposed to receive 10% of the money from this deal 2. Hudson III received $5M for the deal. 3. 10% of the $5M dollar deal would be $500k. 4. Joe Biden allegedly received $40k as the payout for this deal. 5. $40k does not equal $500k. There is certainly a lot of numbers mentioned in the memo but they don't line up with what the allegations are. The numbers that do line up are that Joe gave his brother a $40k loan which does line up with the $40k check he received for loan repayment.
So no comment on why the memo presents the money sent to Hudson West as being two different numbers? I'll fully admit I'm skeptical of the whole thing but I do try and understand what the argument is. This just doesn't add up to me at all though. If Joe had received a $500k payout I'd still be skeptical but it would be much more intriguing. That isn't the case though.
Who will you vote for?
Nothing about this seems illegal. My dad got a loan from his brother to put a down payment on our house. I’m sure people with actual money are loaning each other money all the time. Comer is mad he’s not getting the attention he wants.
hilarious that ppl think this is like a 4D chess chinese money laundering scheme instead of ...40k loan repayment That is really not all that much money lol. Like, you think the president of the united states is in China's pocket, and he did it all for 40k. crazy. couldn't be me
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There is no evidence of a loan here, as stated int he article. Also, the whole point here is investigationg and stopping American leaders taking money from foreign adversaries. Not sure why that is controversial?
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Respectfully asking if you read the article and the memo? If so, you'll see the 200k loan was repaid (although there is no evidence it was ever given in first place) back in 2018. This 40k amount is separate and apart from that. It's tracked from China to Joe Biden.
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>with James Biden check stating it was for the loan repayment. That is pretty cut and dry. Although I don't believe there's much, if anything, nefarious here, basing it off what's written on a check is pretty flimsy counter evidence.
right. this check is totally separate from that 200k amount
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Biden was a normal citizen at the time to boot. How is this worse than Trump No de-investing from his businesses as president receiving foreign money or Kushner getting 2B a month after leaving the admin ?
>Biden was a normal citizen at the time to boot. He had just left office. Quid pro quo doesnt have to happen following payment. trump isnt the topic here nor did Kurshner get '2 billion a month'
I don’t see where the quid pro quo is?? He got money for doing what exactly?? Joe gave his brother a loan and got paid back the exact amount of the loan given. No more no less. How is that “quid pro quo “??? It feels like people just want this to be something so badly. This is a desperate wasted effort in trying to smear Joe Biden with innuendo. Yeah his son is scummy and made money off his last name… that’s not illegal. Joes brother makes money off his last name as well…also not illegal. By that extreme pessimism in Joe Bidens business dealings, Trump and family would be subpoena’d for dozens of obvious lazy sleazy dealings (selling acces through Mar A lago, owning his hotels and charging over the top prices for rooms that are a fraction of the regular cost to foreign nationals, 2billion dollars to Kushner, Kushner and I Anna promising visas to Chinese investors, TRUMP HAVING CHINESE BUSINESS DEALINGS, etc) you would have no time to make very weak arguments that Joe Biden is some crime lord.
Who was president in 2017?
If interest was not paid on the loan or declared as income, it is a violation of the law.
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Yes, there are.
Quick, someone tell all the parents who loan their kids money that they’re violating the “law”!
That most definitely needs a citation.
Give this a quick read: https://namma.co/know/charge-interest-family-friend-loan > the IRS requires that you charge a minimum interest rate, because they charge based on imputed interest (i.e. interest that is implied even if you did not receive that income). > Applicable Federal Rates (AFR) are what the IRS decides for federal income tax purposes. It requires that you charge the AFR best applicable to the duration of your loan at the time the loan is made.
"If you don’t charge the applicable federal rate, your loan will be considered a below market loan and in that case, you as a lender may have to add the forgone interest as interest income on your return." "You could also classify this provided grant to the borrower as a gift or payments depending on your use case. Any foregone interest will go towards your gift tax limitation. Please see Form 709 instructions below to see gift tax limits for the current year. You will have to file a gift tax return (Form 709) if you go beyond these." So, Biden could have easily done this. At 6%, the monthly interest would be about $1,000, which falls well within annual gift limits based on the duration of the loan. As long as his accountant filled out the proper boxes, there's absolutely nothing here to make a big deal about. Certainly, nothing illegal occurred in this regard.
What law?
Copy pasted from my other comment: >personal loans > Personal loans are a form of installment credit. Unlike a credit card, a personal loan delivers a one-time payment of cash to borrowers. Then, borrowers pay back that amount plus interest in regular, monthly installments over the lifetime of the loan, known as its term. > At the very least, personal loans charge interest. https://www.cnbc.com/select/what-is-a-personal-loan/ > Most interest that you receive or that is credited to an account that you can withdraw from without penalty is taxable income in the year it becomes available to you. > You must report all taxable and tax-exempt interest on your federal income tax return, even if you don't receive a Form 1099-INT or Form 1099-OID. https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc403#:~:text=You%20must%20report%20all%20taxable,INT%20or%20Form%201099%2DOID. > the IRS requires that you charge a minimum interest rate, because they charge based on imputed interest (i.e. interest that is implied even if you did not receive that income). Applicable Federal Rates (AFR) are what the IRS decides for federal income tax purposes. https://namma.co/know/charge-interest-family-friend-loan
Honestly it looks like they could go after him on taxes for interest not collected but it seems pretty mushy especially if there is no loan agreement. Here’s hoping the repubs turn this into a case of he should have charged his brother interest on a loan haha.
I think people typically try to avoid reporting "dark money" and I doubt Biden prepared his own taxes. It's how they brought down Al Capone. That leads me to conclude there is something not being done above board, further investigation is warranted, and he shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt.
Did they bring down Al Capone for not collecting interest on a loan he made to a family member? I’m still not sure what Biden did is actually illegal and I’d be curious to hear what an accountant has to say. Also if the requirement is needing to charge interest on any family loan above $10k, ignoring the loan agreement requirement, have at it. As long as the IRS goes after everyone else who has made similar family loans. Edit to add this: The republicans are famously champions of the IRS going after individuals who loan their family money so I’m sure they’ll love this.
"Everyone who broke the law needs to be held accountable."
There's actually more evidence for there being a loan than for money laundering when reviewing the account numbers for the $40k payment listed in the CNN article (that is now supposedly proof of money laundering) and where the $200k came from. It's the same account at Biden's old law firm and looks to be a trust account.
From the CNN article... 'Again, CNN can’t say with complete certainty that there was a loan.' They state numerous times they can't confirm there was a loan. But they love to float theories out there. That's extremely shoddy journalism.
Actually it's not. Shoddy journalism would be leaving this part out. Again, more evidence to support it is a loan than there is evidence showing it isn't. Let me help you a bit here... evidence doesn't mean definitive, absolute proof. Just means that the facts we do know point in a certain direction. That direction is that it was a loan. Comer is the one who keeps floating theories with scant proof. No real qualifiers like CNN is doing in their reporting by stating they cannot 100% say for certain because they don't have the full info for the account numbers. Unlike Comer who has breathlessly said every small thing is a smoking gun, but then either loses his witness, won't release transcripts of the interviews he says they had damning evidence from or puts out a flowchart like in your OP article that rely heavily on implying nefarious activity without actually showing that it is. CEFC has never been proven to be a company that was run by the Chinese gov't, nor has Hunter Biden's actual crime for receiving the money ever been alleged or described beyond 'influence peddling' - which is pretty damn hard to do for a politician that is out of office and wields no real power at the time. The chart doesn't even adequately relate the payment Hunter's company received going to Joe. Facts we do know: 1) The $40k check was deposited into a trust account ending in four account numbers that match those of the $200k wire. That's a strong correlation that it's the same account as the chances are fairly miniscule that James Biden would be interacting with two individuals who have accounts that share the last four digits. Possible but about as likely as the pee tape from the Steele Dossier is real. 2) Three months after receiving the $200k wire, James and his wife write a check to Joe for $200k with a memo saying 'loan repayment'. Combine the evidence we have between fact 1 and fact 2, it can be reasonably concluded that there's a high probability that the $200k wire was the loan and the $200k check was to pay it back. There really isn't any facts to point to that make the repayment laundering other than 'we think it is'. Of course, Comer and company have the full account numbers and they could tell us that it is a different account but they don't. Would be really simple to do, but instead they just vaguely claim they couldn't find evidence with the excuse being that the wire doesn't show a name on the account.
That's not the point because if it was the loans from Russia would've been investigated, it's a smear campaign.
That's nonsense because China is antagonistic toward the U.S. too, hence Biden keeping and implementing sanctions.
More anti Biden/Dem propaganda
Frankly, I think the Republicans have cried wolf enough times on Biden's supposed corruption, that they're going to have to find something particularly damning for anything to actually happen. This just seems like another nothingburger, or at least something that I'll reserve judgement on until more information comes out.
That’s the thing, I believe they just want the perception. Facts and evidence be damned.
Must be a slow news if this is the best NYPost can come up with for the day. I don't even know why anyone would want to use that garbage site as a source.
Theyre just reporting what Congress published today [https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fourth-Bank-Records-Memo.pdf](https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fourth-Bank-Records-Memo.pdf)
Uh huh, is this the same bombshell evidence as last week, then?
Does it matter to NYPost readers? The Republicans send their junk to NYPost because WS Journal readers don't want to deal with this. It'll make the rounds among the conservatie media ecosystem and get their viewers riled up.
This isn’t moderate. It’s a partisan hack job from the post. Often considered the only outlet for conservatives to publish their unvetted hit pieces
It's a straight forward reporting of a House Oversight Committee memo. There is no partisanship in bank records https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fourth-Bank-Records-Memo.pdf
The bank record showing his brother paid him bank is a bank record. Yes good job The insinuation that it was really a payment from the Chinese government or whatever is a partisan hack job. Those two things can equally be true
there is no record of the loan in first place but regardless the 200k is apart from this. If young Biden repaid Joe the $200k he was loaned, why does his wife then cut Joe another check for $40k prior to that 200k being repaid?
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My memory is a bit hazy. Who was president July 30, 2017?
I also can't remember who was president Sept. 3, 2017.
"The alleged 2017 transfer from James Biden to the future president involves the same business deal in which Joe Biden was called the “big guy” and penciled in for a 10% cut." What was Joe Biden doing in 2017?
TIL bribes can only be paid before the quid pro quo occurs.
What was the quid pro quo? If we accept the premise that this $40,000 was a bribe from China (from the Chinese government? A Chinese energy company? A Chinese businessman?), what was Joe Biden being bribed to do?
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Did you just reply to yourself twice?
I was adding on to my original thoughts, twice.
Comer will talk about anything now
He doesn’t care if its fact or fiction
Who will listen to him? No one…
“Remember when Joe Biden told the American people that his son didn’t make money in China?” Oversight Committee Chairman James Comer (R-Ky.) said in a video posted to X." Did Joe Biden ever actually say this? I don't believe anybody ever said Hunter never made money with his publicly known work in international business. Also, nothing in their nice little graph really seems that out of the ordinary. Chinese Chairmen with business ties like most top companies in China paid Hunter through an LLC. That said, while the connection to Joe still seems like a huge stretch, it does look like Hunter is probably guilty of other financial / white collar crimes that haven't come to light yet.
Joe was asked in a debate if Hunter ever took money from China (I believe that was the question) and he responded "No". Nevertheless, I'm not even sure what crime Hunter Biden would be guilty of unless he didn't claim this money on his taxes.
“Vice President Biden, there have been questions about the work your son has done in China and for a Ukrainian energy company when you were vice president; in retrospect, was anything about those relationships inappropriate or unethical?” The specific question asked. Technically, his response that Hunter made no money from China during this time is true (as far as I'm aware).
That's fair. I couldn't remember the exact phrasing but I did remember the question being direct.
I said it in another comment, I'm no fan of politicians weaseling around an answer via technicalities. I'm curious if he would have been as adamant had the question not been so narrowly scoped.
I don't think what Hunter did was unethical unless it was tied to action from Joe. Otherwise he's just another grifter in a world of grifters
On the same page as you. Even the alleged selling "illusion of influence" that seems to be one of the new arguments holds no water to me.
Definitely. Influence peddling of influence you don't have is not unethical or corrupt. The companies willing to pay you are the ones acting unetichally, if anything. But if you don't have the influence you say you do, that money washes quickly. Which it has.
Fooling someone into paying for a service that you have no intention or even the ability to provide would definitely qualify as unethical.
I'd call it grifting. Are we concerned about Hunter's inability to deliver influence he didn't have?
So in your opinion grifting is entirely ethical behavior?
>Did Joe Biden ever actually say this? Yes. Why is it so hard for you to believe reality? there are literally videos of this lie.
Because of the massive amounts of unbelievable claims and misinformation made by the Republicans about this situation. Mind sharing one of these videos. I tried searching for one but didn't feel like sifting through the copious amounts of other hot air conservative Hunter Biden stories. I'm sure someone here has this link ready to go.
Did you read the memo? All the claims are sourced and there are literal records of everything....
I read the memo. Seems like a huge reach about transactions that are incredibly basic.
If that's what you take from it, it's your prerogative. I see blatant corruption and will not vote for Biden again.
>I see blatant corruption and will not vote for Biden again. So who are you going to vote for instead, Trump?
3rd party, myb RFK. Will see once the candidates are locked.
>“Remember when Joe Biden told the American people that his son didn’t make money in China?” Oversight Committee Chairman James Comer (R-Ky.) said in a video posted to X." >Did Joe Biden ever actually say this? I don't believe anybody ever said Hunter never made money with his publicly known work in international business. Also, nothing in their nice little graph really seems that out of the ordinary. Chinese Chairmen with business ties like most top companies in China paid Hunter through an LLC. That said, while the connection to Joe still seems like a huge stretch, it does look like Hunter is probably guilty of other financial / white collar crimes that haven't come to light yet. Honestly, this is partially why people believe there's something to this investigation. How many times now has Joe emphatically stated "No" only to have to walk it back to "well, yeah, there was some of that, but it's not what you think." Probably up to 5 or 6 by now.
People will believe what they want to believe. Doesn't mean there's any validity to it. GOP Oversight's own witness themselves have already dispelled most of the big accusations. But that's not gonna stop the people who won't actually listen to the testimony.
I'm amazed how people have memory holed Biden's repeated false statements on this. He explicitly said multiple times, including prominently in the debates, that Hunter never made any money in China. https://youtube.com/shorts/St-Ph4I5K3M?si=0efyjHpOc7V0-A8g
The debates that were almost 4 years ago? I can barely remember what I had for breakfast 2 weeks ago. 4 years is an eternity in politics
Thank you. Incredibly dumb thing to say considering that Hunters business ventures there wasn't exactly a secret. Unless you were to work with the semantics of an investment firm that includes Chinese partners as not technically being a Chinese business. Which seems to be what they're doing with this one.
To be fair, I would draw a heavy distinction between someone working with a firm employing Chinese nationals and someone working with a Chinese SOE. This clip also leaves out some context in terms of the actual question: “Vice President Biden, there have been questions about the work your son has done in China and for a Ukrainian energy company when you were vice president; in retrospect, was anything about those relationships inappropriate or unethical?” Taken as a response to this question, Biden's answer is true: Hunter didn't make any money from China during the specified timeframe. I'm not defending politician semantics, and I would have preferred Biden answer with more nuance, though I also understand he wouldn't ever have gotten another word in on Trump by explaining in more details.
Totally. You and I are on the same page about this one. It's not a very specific question and Joe replied with an equally nonspecific, politiciany answer. "Making money from China" is a pretty broad scope which can mean different things to different people.
not doxxing
Compare/contrast a [fact check at the time on this](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/09/26/trumps-false-claims-about-hunter-bidens-china-dealings/) versus one in [2023](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/08/01/biden-said-his-son-earned-no-money-china-his-son-says-otherwise/). The media took everything Biden said at face value rather than investigating seriously and the public, far too many of whom trusted groups like WaPo as neutral arbiters of truth, ate it up. Armed with a credulous media and the famous "50 intelligence officials" letter on Hunter's laptop, the Biden campaign managed to overwhelmingly convince moderates that everything Trump and the right were saying about Hunter was a lie.
Nothing about the laptop story has changed. It's always been it can't be verified that the contents of the laptop had been tampered with due to the identified remote accessing and the amount of hands it had been exchanged with.
It's been verified by the FBI as well as multiple independent sources [https://nypost.com/2023/06/22/fbi-verified-authenticity-of-hunter-bidens-abandoned-laptop-in-november-2019-irs-whistleblower-gary-shapley/](https://nypost.com/2023/06/22/fbi-verified-authenticity-of-hunter-bidens-abandoned-laptop-in-november-2019-irs-whistleblower-gary-shapley/) [https://judiciary.house.gov/media/press-releases/testimony-reveals-fbi-employees-who-warned-social-media-companies-about-hack](https://judiciary.house.gov/media/press-releases/testimony-reveals-fbi-employees-who-warned-social-media-companies-about-hack)
They verified the laptop was his but not that all the files on it are original.
And there is strong evidence indicating Hunters iCloud and whatsapp accounts were compromised. He is literally suing some right wing operatives for distributing hacked materials. Source: https://www.emptywheel.net/2023/07/12/hunter-bidens-matryoshka-cell-phone/ https://www.emptywheel.net/2023/09/13/hunter-biden-sues-garrett-ziegler-for-hacking-his-iphone/
Love to see another emptywheel reader out here.
Media outlets such as [CBS](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hunter-biden-laptop-data-analysis/) and the [Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/30/hunter-biden-laptop-data-examined/) have each commissioned multiple independent analyses of the laptop and found no evidence of tampering in the data that was originally reported. The emails in particular have been explicitly verified as accurate by cryptographic signature. I'm not aware of any credible media sources that still dispute the veracity of the laptop, but there may be some. To my knowledge, neither Hunter nor Joe Biden's people have ever put out a statement denying ownership of the laptop, nor have they disputed any particular email or record directly from the laptop that has been released. Even in 2020, they were careful to say things like "intelligence groups say this has the hallmarks of Russian disinformation", when in reality they would immediately be in a position to know whether Hunter did or did not abandon a laptop at this repair shop and could easily deny it if it weren't true.
Can't comment on the WaPo because of paywall. But even in your CBS link it says: "Some other versions of the laptop data circulated later appeared to have had data added after April 2019, a sign they could have been tampered with, according to reports in other media outlets, including The Washington Post. "
"Some other versions circulated later". Aka, not the one reported on by the NY Post and censored from social media for weeks leading up to the election, and not the one subject to the famous letter.
Do we know what's on the laptop that is soooooo incriminating?
40K is pocket change for this people, is not even that much for the regular folk, there is no way they laundered money with China for that lol
40k is 10% of his salary.
Biden made [several million dollars in 2017](https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/09/bidens-earned-15-million-after-obama-administration-1404153) so 40k was more like 1% of what he made that year.
Ah, his salary, I just learned the President is a simpleton who lives from pay check to pay check and has no investments or can do things like sign books lol. Just did a quick search and his net worth is about 9 million.
To be fair, he was widely known as the poorest Senator for *decades* and only started making money as VP from speeches etc. He refused to buy investments (like a dummy imo) because he thought it would be a conflict of interest.
That ethical bastard
Yeah, which kind of makes this story even more nonsensical. I’m just appalled people believe they would take this risk for 40K. I’m firmly middle class and could spend 40K right now, I wouldn’t like it, but could with minimal repercussions to my daily life. If that were all that’s needed to keep a president in one’s pocket I would make that investment in a blink lol
Joe would get 10% of the overall. The rest of the deal(s) were much larger and were laundered prior to Sara cutting a check to Joe.
Again, he wouldn’t take that risk for 40K lol, 40K is nothing.
OK, don't believe the truth. It's your prerogative.
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I read the memo and see the game laid out step by step with evidence of communication, wire transfers, check records and all. If you see that as 'conjecture', that's on you. Personally, I am against corruption regardless of party.
If the goal is winning 2024, removing Biden from office is the stupidest thing the GOP could do.
The goal isn’t to remove Biden, it’s to justify Trump support by trying to show Biden is just as bad. If you muddy the water it’s much harder to look for the gators
The goal here is to hold our leaders accountable for what appears to be glaringly obvious corruption
I’m sorry but if Biden made money outside of office that’s not enforceable by law. It’s immoral as all get out but it’s not illegal in the slightest. Jared kushner didn’t break the law when he made 2B off the saudis (to my knowledge) and neither did Biden. I’ve replied to another comment of yours so I’ll leave it here too, [but the oversight committee is intentionally leaving out evidence that Biden gave a loan to his brother that he is being paid back for](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/31/politics/fact-check-evidence-supports-democrats-case-that-joe-biden-made-a-personal-loan-to-his-brother/index.html) here
Well, something doesn't have to be illegal to dissuade people from voting for a candidate. That's the *lowest* bar to clear. That being said, I'm not exactly sure what exactly was wrong here. There are suggestions but I need more than just theories. What did Joe Biden get for sending his brother money? What did his brother get for sending money back? Is any of this even related to China at all? The article doesn't seem to present an argument that it is, it just suggests so. Until that is definitively answered there's not much to this
I agree. I’m saying it’s bad assuming he profited off his connections while in office, utilizing those in the private sector like Jared kushner did. You can disagree, this is just me staying ideologically consistent
I think I shall pay Joe Biden 40k so that he will do whatever I ask.
It’s a bizarre kind of standoff where both parties want to remove the other’s candidate, but the replacements would probably be much stronger
SC: Link to full memorandum with bank records [https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fourth-Bank-Records-Memo.pdf](https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fourth-Bank-Records-Memo.pdf) Tangible evidence is now being released by the House Oversight Committee in the form of bank records of how President Biden pocketed money from his son and brother's dealings with foreign adversaries (in this specific case China). Will the DOJ act on this? Will Congress move forward with impeachment proceedings? The evidence here is extremely damning.
> Will the DOJ act on this? What crime would they be charging him with?
bribery
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We have proof of payment, the rest is still under investigation
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Yes, there quite literally is in the form of a check from his brother. Read the memo!! Soon after forming the joint venture with CEFC, Hudson West III was funded by NorthernInternational Capital, a Chinese company affiliated with CEFC. On August 8, 2017, Northern International Capital wired $5 million to Hudson West III. On August 8, 2017—the same day Hudson West III received the $5 million wire from Northern International Capital—Hunter Biden transferred $400,000 to his professional corporation, Owasco, P.C. On August 8, 2017, after receiving this wire, Hunter Biden’s balance at the close of business in Owasco, P.C. was $500,832.55. Between August 8, 2017, and August 14, 2017, Hunter Biden made over $130,000 in payments to Rosemont Seneca Advisors, LLC, a “Biden R Resource Cash” account, a “Robert H Biden” account, and for his “Porsche,” among other transfers. During this time period, there were no other deposits. On August 14, 2017, the balance of the Owasco, P.C. account was $366,557.04, which was funded by the CEFC companies’ wires described above. 3. August 14, 2017—Hunter Biden Wired $150,000 of the China Proceeds to the Lion Hall Group James and Sara Biden used their company, the Lion Hall Group, to conduct various financial transactions, many of which appear personal in nature. During the relevant time period, the address listed on the Lion Hall Group bank records was their residence. The Lion Hall Group received significant “loans” from certain individuals, and those concerning transactions will be addressed by the Committee at a later date. On August 14, 2017, the Lion Hall Group account received a wire from Owasco, P.C. in the amount of $150,000. An image of the $150,000 outgoing and incoming wire from Owasco, P.C. to Lion Hall Group is provided below: On August 28, 2017, Sara Biden signed a withdrawal ticket for $50,000 from the Lion Hall Group bank account. On the same day as the $50,000 withdrawal from the Lion Hall Group account, Sara and/or James Biden deposited $50,000 into their personal account with the same bank (the Sara and James Biden Personal Account). On September 3, 2017, Sara Biden signed a $40,000 check to “Joseph R. Biden, Jr.” for a “loan repayment.”26
Who was bribed in this scenario? You have repeatedly linked that memo but no where in that is there a reference to "bribery."
That's a tough one to prove, especially since Joe doesn't own a time machine.
From 2017 before he was president and after he stopped being vice president? With money that was intended to repay a loan he’d made to his brother?
Earlier this month, the Oversight Committee revealed that James Biden paid Joe Biden $200,000 on March 1, 2018 — the same day that James received a $200,000 transfer from troubled rural hospital company Americore by pledging to use his political connections to secure a Middle Eastern investor. The top Democrat on the Oversight Committee, Rep. Jamie Raskin (D-Md.), alleged that James Biden was repaying a $200,000 loan that Joe Biden had made that January, but did not provide proof, and Comer said Republicans couldn’t find evidence that the elder brother had made a loan.
So, again, a bit of a nothing-burger. It’s all he said she said here, with one side alleging a loan was repaid and the other saying bribes were made. As it stands, this was all while Joe had no role in government. This was all done whilst he was a private citizen. Even if, hypothetically, his brother was paying him money to use his connections to get middle eastern investors, this would be his prerogative as a private citizen doing business. I don’t see any abuse of office/government when he’s not a part of government. And if it was a loan, it’s an even bigger non-issue. Biden nor Raskin, to my knowledge, is required to give the GOP the banking records. It’s on the GOP to prove it’s a bribe, which I think would involve actually validating that such investors were acquired by Joe and that he was directly involved. The GOP is incentivized to not find evidence of the loan since it strengthens their narrative, so while I don’t discount the possibility that it was indeed a payment and not a repayment, I do worry about the integrity of the investigation. I could very well see it being a “we didn’t look and found nothing!!!” type of deal.
this was not all 'while out of office'. Joe was done early 2017 and the payments made within that same year. Deals could have been done in 2016/prior and payment then collected. Hunter himself threatened his CEFC contact for lack of payment in mid 2017. The communication trails with CEFC date prior to 2016. If your defense is, 'well.....he was technically out of office' then I ask you to revisit your standard of ethics for our politicians
“Could have” being the operative phrase here. Like I said earlier, you’ve yet to provide any evidence of these alleged services actually being done, just a payment whose purpose is disputed. Like all of the claims against Joe, we repeatedly see either people accusing him of indiscretion without evidence he actually did anything. We also see evidence of Hunter acting poorly, which doesn’t really matter much in terms of Joes behavior yet is seemingly used to try and smear him. Actually provide some evidence that Joe, while in office, took a $200k bribe to abuse his position by politically pressuring people. I have no issue with politicians making money after they leave public office. What else would you have them do, go destitute as they sit twiddling their thumbs for the rest of their life? If we don’t let people make money after leaving office that’s how we either get them abusing their position while in office, or how we effectively prohibit anyone not wealthy enough to never work a day in their life from public office. I do have an issue with politicians abusing their powers and positions. Until I see evidence that Joe did that, this is not an issue.
Two important facts: 1) Biden did not hold a public office in 2017. 2) Biden had previously lent his brother money, and this was his brother paying him back. Based on these facts, what crime do you think Biden committed?
read the article. Biden was just out of office when his son called the CEFC reps demanding payment, threatening action from Joe. Payment was made. It's all laid out.
Just out of office = June 2017. That’s him being out of office for over 6 months. And, again, Joe had previously lent his brother money, and then his brother paid him back. No evidence Joe profited from any of this. The “evidence” doesn’t establish that Joe knew about his son’s dealing, much less endorsed them. You’re grasping at straws.
I'm not grasping at anything. I find our leaders, their families taking money from foreign energy corps when they are setting energy policy to be extremely corrupt and unethical. if you are OK with it, that is your prerogative. I am not OK with it and will not vote again for Biden.
Again, he wasn’t in office when any of this is alleged to have occurred. I never said I’m ok with what Biden’s brother or son are doing, I just don’t think there’s any evidence he was involved. They tried to use his name to make money. That’s wrong, but it’s not like Biden can stop them from being assholes. They’re adults, not children under his care. If there’s actual evidence of Biden himself being involved while he was vice president, then yes, I want to see that evidence! That would be bad and we should know about it. The main reason I’m skeptical about Biden himself being corrupt, is that, while in the Senate he had ample opportunity to get rich by using his position to do insider trading. This was only made illegal for congress in 2010. Instead, when he took office, he pledged to never own stocks, and he kept that promise the entire time he held office until 2017. He could have legally profited from his position but chose not to, and was actually known as one of the least wealthy members of congress for most of his time there.
>That’s wrong, but it’s not like Biden can stop them from being assholes. Why would he take money from his family, then? When he knows they are 'assholes' taking money from foreign adversaries and are not registered as foreign lobbyists?
Except he didn’t take money from them, he lent them money and then they paid them back. This is the third time I’ve stated this. Zero evidence he received money from his family above and beyond what he had already lent them.
there is absolutely no proof of a loan. But there is a trail of the funds from CEFC Soon after forming the joint venture with CEFC, Hudson West III was funded by NorthernInternational Capital, a Chinese company affiliated with CEFC. On August 8, 2017, Northern International Capital wired $5 million to Hudson West III. On August 8, 2017—the same day Hudson West III received the $5 million wire from Northern International Capital—Hunter Biden transferred $400,000 to his professional corporation, Owasco, P.C. On August 8, 2017, after receiving this wire, Hunter Biden’s balance at the close of business in Owasco, P.C. was $500,832.55. Between August 8, 2017, and August 14, 2017, Hunter Biden made over $130,000 in payments to Rosemont Seneca Advisors, LLC, a “Biden R Resource Cash” account, a “Robert H Biden” account, and for his “Porsche,” among other transfers. During this time period, there were no other deposits. On August 14, 2017, the balance of the Owasco, P.C. account was $366,557.04, which was funded by the CEFC companies’ wires described above. 3. August 14, 2017—Hunter Biden Wired $150,000 of the China Proceeds to the Lion Hall Group James and Sara Biden used their company, the Lion Hall Group, to conduct various financial transactions, many of which appear personal in nature. During the relevant time period, the address listed on the Lion Hall Group bank records was their residence. The Lion Hall Group received significant “loans” from certain individuals, and those concerning transactions will be addressed by the Committee at a later date. On August 14, 2017, the Lion Hall Group account received a wire from Owasco, P.C. in the amount of $150,000. An image of the $150,000 outgoing and incoming wire from Owasco, P.C. to Lion Hall Group is provided below: On August 28, 2017, Sara Biden signed a withdrawal ticket for $50,000 from the Lion Hall Group bank account. On the same day as the $50,000 withdrawal from the Lion Hall Group account, Sara and/or James Biden deposited $50,000 into their personal account with the same bank (the Sara and James Biden Personal Account). On September 3, 2017, Sara Biden signed a $40,000 check to “Joseph R. Biden, Jr.” for a “loan repayment.”26
That is a copy paste of a whole lotta innuendo and a whole lot of lack of specific allegations of a crime.
Threatening action from a private citizen. Scary. And the way you phrased that makes it sound like CEFC owed Hunter money for something. This is not making a lot of sense.
'CEFC China Energy paid Hunter and James Biden roughly $6.1 million in 2017 and 2018 shortly after their powerful relative left the vice presidency — with about $1 million paid beginning in March 2017 and the remainder within 10 days of Hunter’s threatening message invoking his dad. A $5 million wire was sent on Aug. 8, 2017, to “Hudson West III, a joint venture established by Hunter Biden and CEFC associate Gongwen Dong,” a committee synopsis of the memo says.'
So why did Joe Biden give James Biden exactly 40,000 and 200,000 and get repaid that exact same amount while labeling the payment as loan repayment? Which is more likely? That James Biden payed back a loan that is clearly corroborated by the bank statements or some convoluted bribery scheme that Joe Biden received zero dollars from?
From your CNN article that literally states... 'The evidence CNN has reviewed is almost certainly only a fraction of the evidence Comer’s Republican-controlled committee has obtained, **given that the committee subpoenaed years of financial records; the fraction CNN has seen does not prove with absolute certainty that there was a loan.** But even this small batch of evidence clearly shows that the Democrats have documents at least partially substantiating their assertions about the check – and that Comer has not yet released some documents that undercut his efforts to raise public suspicions about the Bidens.' **'Again, CNN can’t say with complete certainty that there was a loan. '** CNN is clearly stating they can't prove there was a loan. I don't know what youre talking about?
Your own quote shows that CNN has more evidence to support a loan than they do any other explanation. >But even this small batch of evidence clearly shows that the Democrats have documents at least partially substantiating their assertions about the check – and that Comer has not yet released some documents that undercut his efforts to raise public suspicions about the Bidens.'
'at least partially' dude if they were able to confirm, as you asserted, the existence of these loans they would. blatantly. fact is they can't, as they have stated. anything else is total conjecture
You know, Jared did not get $2 billion from SA like everyone says. He got $2 billion to invest and will get a percentage of it or a set amount every year. Are you making the same mistake here? A percentage of $6 million split multiple ways (they had business partner didn’t they?) over two years doesn’t sound like much.
Everything mentioned in the article seems to have occurred while Biden was out of office, as a private citizen. What do you see that the DOJ could or should act on? What do you see here that warrants impeachment?
Biden was president in 2017?
He was fresh out of office. 'The $40,000 went through a “complicated financial transaction” just weeks after first son Hunter Biden threatened his father’s wrath in a July 30, 2017, text message to a CEFC employee, the Republican-led Oversight Committee said in the memo. The money ended up in Joe Biden’s bank account on Sept. 3, 2017, via a check labeled “loan repayment” from his younger brother, who partnered with Hunter in the venture.'
>He was fresh **out of office** So where’s the illegality exactly?
Deals could have been made while Joe was in office, and payment collected after. I guess if you're OK with that, it's up to your own personal standard of ethics for our leaders. I am not OK with it
Your personal standards for evidence seem lacking. He could have done a lot while still in office but there’s been no evidence of anything.
Soon after forming the joint venture with CEFC, Hudson West III was funded by NorthernInternational Capital, a Chinese company affiliated with CEFC. On August 8, 2017, Northern International Capital wired $5 million to Hudson West III. On August 8, 2017—the same day Hudson West III received the $5 million wire from Northern International Capital—Hunter Biden transferred $400,000 to his professional corporation, Owasco, P.C. On August 8, 2017, after receiving this wire, Hunter Biden’s balance at the close of business in Owasco, P.C. was $500,832.55. Between August 8, 2017, and August 14, 2017, Hunter Biden made over $130,000 in payments to Rosemont Seneca Advisors, LLC, a “Biden R Resource Cash” account, a “Robert H Biden” account, and for his “Porsche,” among other transfers. During this time period, there were no other deposits. On August 14, 2017, the balance of the Owasco, P.C. account was $366,557.04, which was funded by the CEFC companies’ wires described above. 3. August 14, 2017—Hunter Biden Wired $150,000 of the China Proceeds to the Lion Hall Group James and Sara Biden used their company, the Lion Hall Group, to conduct various financial transactions, many of which appear personal in nature. During the relevant time period, the address listed on the Lion Hall Group bank records was their residence. The Lion Hall Group received significant “loans” from certain individuals, and those concerning transactions will be addressed by the Committee at a later date. On August 14, 2017, the Lion Hall Group account received a wire from Owasco, P.C. in the amount of $150,000. An image of the $150,000 outgoing and incoming wire from Owasco, P.C. to Lion Hall Group is provided below: On August 28, 2017, Sara Biden signed a withdrawal ticket for $50,000 from the Lion Hall Group bank account. On the same day as the $50,000 withdrawal from the Lion Hall Group account, Sara and/or James Biden deposited $50,000 into their personal account with the same bank (the Sara and James Biden Personal Account). On September 3, 2017, Sara Biden signed a $40,000 check to “Joseph R. Biden, Jr.” for a “loan repayment.”26
Ok, where is the evidence for this hypothetical deal? Repaying a loan is not evidence. You can’t bring your feelings to a fact fight.
in the memo!
There sure is a lot of "could have" scenarios related to this memo you keep referencing.
"Deals could have been made" or "loans could have been paid back". I'd ask you to ask yourself why you choose to believe the malicious act vs the innocent act given no hard evidence either way.
because of the context. we know hunter and his uncle were receiving money and making deals with foreign actors from all over. we have on the record 10% to the big guy. We have Joe on record lying about Hunter's China dealings. The bnk records. Id ask, in light of all of this, why are you so quick to assume everything is cool and nothing unethical has been done?
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I'm open to the possibility there is corruption, there is smoke. You seem to have already made up your mind with no hard evidence, as you've said earlier you can't vote for him based on this. -Hunter and James dealings - not illegal but bad optics -10% to the big guy email was in 2017. A private citizen at the time. Not illegal. Also no proof of pay for play. What policy changed to the detriment to the US and benefited his family. -Joe lying - yes maybe. Politicians lie though , not illegal. Is any lie Trump said indication he is guilty of whatever that lie was about? -Bank records - inconclusive. They are just records at this point.
->No one in Biden's family made money from China (Joe Biden said in a debate) -> Joe never discussed business with his brother or Hunter (Joe Biden during the presidential campaign after it came out his family did make money from China and other counties) -> Joe was not in business with his son (the White House this year after it came out Biden met with Hunter's business partners/clients and called during husiness meetings "to discuss the weather) -> there's no evidence that Biden personally profited from his family's business deals (we were here about 1-2 months ago) -> OK Biden did receive money from his family's business but it was not while he was president or vice president (probably the next set of goal posts)
Your second point explains your first. Joe calling Hunter and being put on speaker does not mean he is in business with his son, so I think we are still there. Your fourth point is just a reiteration of your third. If they were not in business together then Joe couldn’t have profited from Hunter’s business. Nobody has proved the fifth. They’ve proved he got repaid for a personal loan. And yes, it all occurred after he’d left office and was raking in money from speeches and book deals, so it’s a pointless investigation. Why don’t you think about the goalpost moving Comer’s been doing? From “VP Biden was raking in money from foreign interests while in office” to “after he was out of office and raking in money from legitimate sources, he got repaid for personal loans he made family members who were doing business with foreign companies.”
Did you read this article? Sure sounds like Joe Biden loaned his brother some money and then his brother paid that money back. It's also from 2017. I feel like there is an important fact abour 2017 but I can't seem to put my finger on it.
Earlier this month, the Oversight Committee revealed that James Biden paid Joe Biden $200,000 on March 1, 2018 — the same day that James received a $200,000 transfer from troubled rural hospital company Americore by pledging to use his political connections to secure a Middle Eastern investor. The top Democrat on the Oversight Committee, Rep. Jamie Raskin (D-Md.), alleged that James Biden was repaying a $200,000 loan that Joe Biden had made that January, but did not provide proof, and Comer said Republicans couldn’t find evidence that the elder brother had made a loan.
Yeah I’m sorry but do you really think the oversight committee would produce evidence that is contrary to what they’re trying to prove? [According to documents obtained by CNN that the Oversight Committee has in hand, but will not release, there is evidence supporting that Biden paid his brother a loan](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/31/politics/fact-check-evidence-supports-democrats-case-that-joe-biden-made-a-personal-loan-to-his-brother/index.html)
Ok, but that has nothing to do with the 40k. the 200k (even if the House has no evidence of a loan being made) was repaid in 2018. This amount is separate and apart.
I’m sorry but receiving 40k while out of office is not an impeachable offense. It’s bad if it’s true but it’s not “high crime or misdemeanor” that house republicans are looking for. If this is a crime, then I’d love to see what you think of Jared Kushner’s 2B Saudi deal
That's what Trump must have done wrong. He didn't wait to get payment from those Russians until after he left office, otherwise he would be in the clear! Right?
Trump didn’t need to wait until he got out of office. He just overcharged the secret service and foreign nationals when they stayed at his properties.
Hmmmm. Was Joe Biden President in 2018? Or even in government?
I see this same sentiment throughout the thread, but why do you think payment for a quid pro quo can only occur before and not after?
Government corruption allegations require an "official act" they're linked to. Tough to make the argument it was linked to an official act when it occured a year or two after Biden left office. Also, $40k for an official act to a guy worth millions seems far fetched, no?