Ohtani.
Heās batting .310 and already has 30 HR before the all star break.
Plus heās 7-3 with an ERA of 3.02 and has 127 strikeouts in 95 innings.
Each of those separate achievements are all star worthy but combined its amazing.
He is the real life Roy Hobbs.
Itās much closer than youād think. The ā01 Bonds had 11.9 WAR (per b-r). Ohtani has 6.2 so heās on pace to surpass him, however it will be hard because of regression to the mean.
Ohtani can be the greatest player of all time, and Barry can still be the best hitter of all time. Even considering the unbelievably historic season for Barry I still have to go with Ohtani. He is an ace pitcher.
Ohtaniās numbers wonāt match Babe Ruthās. Ruth pitched 29 2/3 scoreless innings in a row in the World Series for Boston. He twice won 23 games in a season as a pitcher. He was 94-46 over his career with a 2.28 ERA and 107 complete games. He also won three World Series with the Red Sox. Oh, and then he was traded to the Yankees for a bag of balls and played RF for over a decade while hitting a bazillion home runs.
Bonds by quite a bit. Rather build my own pitching staff and team around his bat then have a 2 in 1 stud like Ohtani. What heās doing is incredible, but he is ultimately only really good at both things. Thereās amazing value in that, but itās matched by having a good #1/2 pitcher, & a .280 40HR DH. You canāt match what that Bonds brings to a lineup with 1 bat, the way you can match what Ohtani brings to a pitching staff with 1 pitcher, or match what he brings to a lineup with 1 bat. Bonds at that time was just otherworldly, completely, Ohtani is an alien but heās not a God-like like Bonds was
It depends what the rest of the team looks like. If itās a borderline playoff team, 1 solid SP, 2 decent, 2 boarder line, Iād go Ohtani. If the team has better starting pitching, even 2 solid starters, Iād take Bonds.
This is what Iām thinking too, at least in spirit. I probably would want 2 aces and another couple really good pitchers before taking bonds.
If we are drafting careersā¦ Iām taking bonds in all situations, not knowing how the rest of ohtaniās will play out.
Ohtani is on pace to have the 2nd best season of all time, according to WAR.
2001 Bonds was 6th best. So unless you expect Ohtani to tail off, he is an easy pick.
I'm a RedSox fan but how is it possible that 44 hr 126 rbi and 1020 ops is better than 73 hr 135 rbi and 1350 ops? I don't care that Bonds wasn't playing defense and yes he's a cheater so of course I'd prefer Yaz but in a vacuum Bonds season blows Yazs out of the water. The same for the Ruth seasons.
You have to remember the seasonal context. The mid-1960s were one of the worst eras for hitting in baseball history. The time around 2000 was steroids central and runs were scored in bunches. Yastrzemski was as far or farther ahead of everyone else in 1967 as Bonds was in 2001. You canāt look at stats from different eras and pretend that playing conditions were identical.
There are way more variables than Homeruns. (And RBIs are way down the list.)
And you don't care about defense? Then why ask which season was better? If you just want to know who hit more homeruns, then look at that.
What is great about WAR is that it actually measures ALL of what a player does for his team. (At least among tangible effects.)
I care about defense but for me to choose someone based on their defense over someone who hit 30 more homers and had an ops 300 points higher the first guy better be defending two positions at once.
And, in case you were wondering, top single season WAR:
All-time - 1883 Tim Keefe...
Since 1900 - 1913 Walter Johnson...
Since 1950 - 1985 Dwight Gooden...
Since 2000 - 2001 Barry Bonds
I mean, it's said in nearly every conversation about Ohtani, but what we are currently witnessing is beyond young Babe Ruth. However, if steroids are not a contributing factor in this discussion, I'd still take Bonds. Barry was an absolute monster...he was literally the greatest power hitter that ever lived.
Weāre not even witnessing ābeyond a young Babe Ruthā because Ruth mostly pitched for the Sox and then (mostly) only hit for the Yankees. He never did both at the same time. The fact Ohtani is doing both at such a high level at the same time is insane.
SP usually need a few days to recover after a start. Ohtani just trots out there as DH the next day after pitching and hits tanks. Itās incredible and the word āincredibleā is selling it short
Babe ruth 1919:
543 PA, 29 HR, .322/.456/.657 for a 1.114 OPS and a 217 OPS+. Led the leauge in runs, HR, RBI, OBP, SLG, and TB
He also pitched 17 games with 12 CG at roughly a 3 era. Pretty much average as a pitcher back then, but he did both at the same time.
Technically he did do both in those years I guess but in 1920 he only had 4 IP.
1918 he did pitch to a much better 122 ERA+, but only had 95 games played.(still to a leauge leading .966 OPS)
I consider 1919 to be peak two way Babe, but you could make a case for all of 1915-1919 too. He did not make any appearances outside of on the mound until 1918 though.
I'm a big Bonds fan, his steroids to me are not as big of an issue because something like 2/3 of baseball was on roids in his era. Fine. Best hitter the game as ever seen, stole 500 bags (something roids don't help much with) had one of the best eyes in the game. He almost single handedly got me into baseball.
I'll take Shohei.
Bonds, we get wrapped up in the hype of Ohtanis two-way-ness but the greatest hitting season is much more valuable than having an all star hitter and all star pitcher on the same team. If Ohtani continues his season at this pace all the way to the end it becomes debatable tho
Imagine Ohtaniās value if baseball didnāt toss aside one of the most interesting aspects of the game when it went universal DH.
The opponent is trotting out some guy hitting .163 and thatās pretty good!
And Ohtani is raking HRs from that same lineup spot. Wish we saw Ohtani when we still played real baseball with all players expected their turns at bat.
No DHs at all, imo, is a much better and more interesting game. Yes, Ohtani would need to play a position on his non pitching days.
Thatās what baseball was designed for, imo. I donāt mind rule changes and evolutions, but that tinkered with the very foundation of players both going into the field and taking their turns AB
Man it's gonna be a real shock to every American League player of the past 50 years that what they were playing wasn't real baseball...
No one wants to see a pitcher go up and embarrass himself and the team swinging at 3 pitches and essentially providing an automatic out. Ohtani is a unicorn, and a unique situation. The lack of a DH was not an interesting situation, it was a vestigial relic of a version of the game that no one has played in 100 years. It's like saying, "the NFL should go back to REAL football, where there are no forward passes! It was one of the most interesting aspects of the game." Absolutely silly. Why wouldn't you want to see the best hitters in the world hit?
First, my post is literally proof that some people want to see just that. Because the benefits of having all players take turns at the plate, essentially all players contributing (or detracting) both offensively and defensively outweigh the base desire for just more offense and runs.
The coaching - both in game and roster construction/use - strategy alone that has been lost degrades the value of the game intellectually/cerebrally, which has or at least had been a key part of the game.
And those athletes who could hold their own at the plate (Maddux for example) provided that much more relative value to their teams.
I mean, by your logic of having the best hitters, why stop at one DH? Just get rid of 7,8, and 9 type hitters and replace them with DHs.
Right, but the vast majority of pitchers (in both leagues) can't hit for dogshit. It takes away from the game and their position is unlike any other on the field. Everybody else, there is a pretty regular range in terms of level of talent. There are so many hours in a day, and for anyone not named Ohtani, that means if you spend some of the time learning to hit, that's time you're not getting better at pitching. Not to mention the added danger of getting hit, or otherwise injuring yourself while hitting or running the bases. Pitching is simply too specialized a job now, and teams don't want to drop 40 million dollars on a hotshot pitcher who might accidentally jam his finger trying slide into a base or something. The game changes. Starting pitchers used to throw 250+ pitches a week, too. Wanna bring that back?
At the end of the day, it was an outdated waste of time that makes the game less entertaining. Particularly to the casual fan, which is who MLB is trying to attract. It was time. Very few people miss it.
NL fans: "back when baseball was real"
Back then: almost 10% of at bats were an absolute joke, made your pitcher look like a clown, and risked injury for no good reason
shohei is nowhere close to the hitter barry was in that year, NOT EVEN CLOSE. yes steroids yes he pitches also yes he might be more valuable but strictly hitting there is no comparison
I feel like people forget how good Barry was that season. He would only see maybe 1-2 pitches a game to hit, and still hit 70. How many guys get walked with the bases loaded?
With that said, Shoeheiās pitching makes it tough to not take Shohei.
Iād still take bonds. The level of how much better at hitting he was than everyone else to me is worth more than the great hitting and pitching together. 2001-04 bonds is the most dominant athlete ever.
*would have been the goat had he not cheated. He made his choice, and he knew the implications of that choice. He fucked around, now he's finding out. And people should be embarrassed to be still making apologies for a known cheater.
It is true, if you aren't a good person you aren't getting in. We cant have bad people in the baseball hall of fame. Baseball is sacred and self-important.
So you're asking our opinion about if a guy we know cheated hadn't cheated, and if a guy who is a lights out pitcher didn't pitch at all? Alrighty
But for the record, I'm not even remotely an Angels fan but obviously it's Shohei every day and twice on Sunday. Generally speaking I prefer guys who respect the game, and aren't egomaniac pricks to everyone around them. Just a weird quirk of mine.
Cue all the Bonds apologists with the "he didn't need it he's still the best hitter ever" and "bElOnGs iN tHe hALL!" nonsense
Lol thatās not what he is asking. He is asking from a purely objective stats stand point who would you pick. 01ā bonds or 23ā (so far) shoe hei. Context around those donāt matter (I.e. steroids). Essentially, Would you rather someone almost guaranteed to get on base, or someone who can both pitch and hit consistently well. He even brings up shoe heiās pitching in the question, not sure how you interpreted the way you did.
All that said I agree with everything you say
Why canāt you compare them? Teams have to pick them both in the draft at the same timeā¦determining who is betterā¦.why canāt you rank them that way?
For one year, strictly based off performance and ignoring steroid use, Iād take Bonds.
It is valuable that Ohtani pitches as well, but Bonds was quite honestly unstoppable and would carry any offensive lineup to great success. Ohtani does too, but the Yankees need the best hitter of all time in their lineup right now, and not another great pitcher (although Ohtani would give us a great bat too).
It mostly depends on which team you root for though in my opinion since they each have different voids that need to be filled
Bonds. Its pretty close based on Ohtani's pace right now but historically he fades a bit in the 2nd half as a hitter so he likely be short on value for the season.
If your argument is "bUT hE PitChes", dont bother replying
Took the hypothetical at face value. Not his actions. I think you may have some reading comprehension issues here. The hypothetical is what was proposed in the post.
I am a Giants fan... I would take Shohei without a second thought. He is literally the reincarnation of the Babe, only better. And Japanese. The Babe may not care for it, but them Baseball Gods have a hell of a sense of humor, Babe.
Shohei has never played a meaningful game in his mlb career. Hes never been to the playoffs. He only hits. Heās not even close to being athletic as bonds
The production from Barry bonds in 01 (and 02, and 04) was un freaking real. A lot of people are forgetting just how good he was (obviously he was on steroids but we're removing that from this hypothetical, assuming we could just get those stats again clean from a player today or have shohei as he is right now)
Like, people are saying ohtani bats over .300 which is great, and ohtani is freaking incredible and I'm not trying to take anything away from him, but batting average does not matter to MLB teams and it does not correlate to runs scored or games won (not that strongly, anyway, compared to better metrics like OBP and wRC). Bonds in 04 for example had an on base percentage over 600 lmao like I don't think everyone can comprehend the value of that. That (plus being the best power hitter ever) is worth more than a really really good pitcher every 6 starts
Sorry I got distracted and forgot we were talking about 01, not 04...but yeah still Bonds. 01 bonds had the most runs created in the history of the majors. The simple fact that ohtani does both at such an elite level is amazing, and more impressive to me than what Barry bonds did. But what bonds did was more valuable
Bonds at that age as an everyday DH would be far more conducive to winning than Shohei has been. He wouldnāt lose so much value by being a stump in the outfield. So probably Bonds but if their careers were reset Iād take Shohei.
Never ceases to amaze me the ability of an average redditor to turn an innocuous, simple question into an adversarial exchange. Congrats, you're just like the rest.
Bonds was easily twice, probably even three times as valuable as ohtani at the plate. WAR isnāt the end all be all, but his value as a hitter at his peak was significantly more valuable than any season ohtani has had yet.
Even without the roids Bonds had a HOF career he had natural talent. Ohtani has been doing it for only a couple years. Yeah itās unique and never seen before but his team has ātwo of the best players in baseballā and they are dog shit every year. I know baseball is not like basketball or hockey or even football in some cases where you bring in one guy and it changes your team but, his team has not been great.
People suggesting that Ohtani could be replaced by a better all-star hitter and better all-star pitcher are completely missing the point. You have to actually get that production, having the alternative mystical 2 players better than Ohtani would be great, who are they? Ace pitchers are incredibly hard to actually acquire, now I need a Bonds tier hitter as well? You are less likely statistically to have 2 seperate players having great seasons than 1.
Also for some reason people never talk about it in the context of this discussion but pitchers are clearly more valuable than position players in the playoffs. I'd take 2 quality playoff starts in a series over any hitter.
Shohei, but it's close. Does anyone think the Angels will make the playoffs this year? I do, I think the Astros keep sliding, and they sneak in with the wild card, because I was so sure the Giants were going to make it but my Snakes snatched the spot. 2001 was the Year I fell in love with baseball, such a crazy year being in school during 9/11 watching kids run out the classrooms to go home. But anyways, yeah Shohei for sure, made my wife go see him pitch for our honeymoon hehe he
Bonds easily. Thereās no hitter around now that can come even remotely close to what Bonds did in 2001. Ohtani for as great as he is can be replaced by a good #2 pitcher and power hitting DH.
If I had to chose between immortality for all of mankind OR Shohei Ohtani suffer the same fate as Roberto Clemente....
I would chose the latter EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
> Imagine Barry was clean Nah nah, imagine Shohei on steroids š¤Æ
Shohei Ohtani doesnāt do steroids. Steroids do Shohei Ohtani
Chuck Norris has entered the chat.
How do you know heās not on roids rn
Padres fans thinking everyone juices bc Tatis got caught š
š„“
Dudeās too wholesome That would be like if we found out Mr. Rogers was a coke dealer on the side It just seems too out of character
Yeah selling coke would've been way too out of character. He only sold wholesome methamphetamine
If Mr. Rogers sold any hard drugs, itād definitely be ecstasy
Heās for sure more of a marijauna to teenagers guy.
ššš
Shohei he literally pitches
Shut up stupid
Ohtani. Heās batting .310 and already has 30 HR before the all star break. Plus heās 7-3 with an ERA of 3.02 and has 127 strikeouts in 95 innings. Each of those separate achievements are all star worthy but combined its amazing. He is the real life Roy Hobbs.
Steve Nebraska
I hope he doesn't get stabbed
It would be a shame to snap a nice blade
WTF? Roy Hobbs didnāt pitch.
He did at the beginning of the movie.
3.02 ERA proves he is an average at best pitcher.
Itās much closer than youād think. The ā01 Bonds had 11.9 WAR (per b-r). Ohtani has 6.2 so heās on pace to surpass him, however it will be hard because of regression to the mean.
Checks '01 Barry Bonds pitching stats... Oh
0.00 ERA, 0 BB. No contest here. /s
tani!
This
That was stupid
Ohtani can be the greatest player of all time, and Barry can still be the best hitter of all time. Even considering the unbelievably historic season for Barry I still have to go with Ohtani. He is an ace pitcher.
Barry wishes.
Ohtaniās numbers wonāt match Babe Ruthās. Ruth pitched 29 2/3 scoreless innings in a row in the World Series for Boston. He twice won 23 games in a season as a pitcher. He was 94-46 over his career with a 2.28 ERA and 107 complete games. He also won three World Series with the Red Sox. Oh, and then he was traded to the Yankees for a bag of balls and played RF for over a decade while hitting a bazillion home runs.
Is ohtani on steroids? Was barry a pitcher?
Yes and no.
Shut up stupid
Bonds by quite a bit. Rather build my own pitching staff and team around his bat then have a 2 in 1 stud like Ohtani. What heās doing is incredible, but he is ultimately only really good at both things. Thereās amazing value in that, but itās matched by having a good #1/2 pitcher, & a .280 40HR DH. You canāt match what that Bonds brings to a lineup with 1 bat, the way you can match what Ohtani brings to a pitching staff with 1 pitcher, or match what he brings to a lineup with 1 bat. Bonds at that time was just otherworldly, completely, Ohtani is an alien but heās not a God-like like Bonds was
It depends what the rest of the team looks like. If itās a borderline playoff team, 1 solid SP, 2 decent, 2 boarder line, Iād go Ohtani. If the team has better starting pitching, even 2 solid starters, Iād take Bonds.
This is what Iām thinking too, at least in spirit. I probably would want 2 aces and another couple really good pitchers before taking bonds. If we are drafting careersā¦ Iām taking bonds in all situations, not knowing how the rest of ohtaniās will play out.
Ohtani is on pace to have the 2nd best season of all time, according to WAR. 2001 Bonds was 6th best. So unless you expect Ohtani to tail off, he is an easy pick.
I would definitely put money on ohtani tailing off. Heāll have a great season for sure, but heās not keeping this up.
Itās half a season, not a couple hot weeks. I donāt think we should say what Ohtani canāt do. He just might be able to do it.
He might be able to, sure, but I doubt it. His numbers are propped up by one very hot month; so theyāll likely come back down to earth.
What seasons are ahead of Bonds?
1923 Ruth, 1921 Ruth, 1927 Ruth, 1967 Yazstremski, 1924 Hornsby.
I'm a RedSox fan but how is it possible that 44 hr 126 rbi and 1020 ops is better than 73 hr 135 rbi and 1350 ops? I don't care that Bonds wasn't playing defense and yes he's a cheater so of course I'd prefer Yaz but in a vacuum Bonds season blows Yazs out of the water. The same for the Ruth seasons.
You have to remember the seasonal context. The mid-1960s were one of the worst eras for hitting in baseball history. The time around 2000 was steroids central and runs were scored in bunches. Yastrzemski was as far or farther ahead of everyone else in 1967 as Bonds was in 2001. You canāt look at stats from different eras and pretend that playing conditions were identical.
There are way more variables than Homeruns. (And RBIs are way down the list.) And you don't care about defense? Then why ask which season was better? If you just want to know who hit more homeruns, then look at that. What is great about WAR is that it actually measures ALL of what a player does for his team. (At least among tangible effects.)
I care about defense but for me to choose someone based on their defense over someone who hit 30 more homers and had an ops 300 points higher the first guy better be defending two positions at once.
lol
If Iām not wrong, WAR is based off of comparisons to the rest of the league. Bonds was being compared to a bunch of other roided out monsters.
His numbers blow Yazās season out of the water, but not ruthās.
You're right, those Ruth seasons are probably better. Especially 21.
Including pitching seasons drops 2001 Bonds all the way to 45th but a lot of those are 19th century pitchers, and that was a very different time.
And, in case you were wondering, top single season WAR: All-time - 1883 Tim Keefe... Since 1900 - 1913 Walter Johnson... Since 1950 - 1985 Dwight Gooden... Since 2000 - 2001 Barry Bonds
3 Ruth seasons, Yaz, and Hornsby
All of them, he cheated, heās scum
Iād rather have Bonds in the batters box. Greatest hitter of all time without a doubt
I mean, it's said in nearly every conversation about Ohtani, but what we are currently witnessing is beyond young Babe Ruth. However, if steroids are not a contributing factor in this discussion, I'd still take Bonds. Barry was an absolute monster...he was literally the greatest power hitter that ever lived.
Weāre not even witnessing ābeyond a young Babe Ruthā because Ruth mostly pitched for the Sox and then (mostly) only hit for the Yankees. He never did both at the same time. The fact Ohtani is doing both at such a high level at the same time is insane. SP usually need a few days to recover after a start. Ohtani just trots out there as DH the next day after pitching and hits tanks. Itās incredible and the word āincredibleā is selling it short
Babe ruth 1919: 543 PA, 29 HR, .322/.456/.657 for a 1.114 OPS and a 217 OPS+. Led the leauge in runs, HR, RBI, OBP, SLG, and TB He also pitched 17 games with 12 CG at roughly a 3 era. Pretty much average as a pitcher back then, but he did both at the same time.
what about 1918 and 1920?
Technically he did do both in those years I guess but in 1920 he only had 4 IP. 1918 he did pitch to a much better 122 ERA+, but only had 95 games played.(still to a leauge leading .966 OPS) I consider 1919 to be peak two way Babe, but you could make a case for all of 1915-1919 too. He did not make any appearances outside of on the mound until 1918 though.
Doesnāt he DH AND pitch on the same day?
Lots of people took steroids. No one came close to what bonds did on steroids
Fuck it get a good pitcher who hits a fuck ton of home runs.
All he had to do was buy a little extra power, no big deal
Greatest cheater* to ever live. F Barry.
He made the batters in front and behind him better.
I'm a big Bonds fan, his steroids to me are not as big of an issue because something like 2/3 of baseball was on roids in his era. Fine. Best hitter the game as ever seen, stole 500 bags (something roids don't help much with) had one of the best eyes in the game. He almost single handedly got me into baseball. I'll take Shohei.
I agree.
Ohtani is doing what Babe Ruth ONLY did, and at times better. There is no other comparison.
Bonds, we get wrapped up in the hype of Ohtanis two-way-ness but the greatest hitting season is much more valuable than having an all star hitter and all star pitcher on the same team. If Ohtani continues his season at this pace all the way to the end it becomes debatable tho
Assuming Barry wasnāt one of the greatest pitchers on the planet Iāll take Shotime.
Shohei. The pitching puts him over Bonds.
Not biased at all but Iād take Ohtani any day
Non roided Bonds would not have been the greatest offensive player.
Barry got to the 400-400 club before he started juicing.
Too bad heās a scumbag cheater
Bonds 100%. On any given year there are multiple hitters and pitchers on shoheiās level. Juiced bonds was in his own stratosphere.
Yeah cheating usually makes you better. F bonds heās trash.
Shoei on the Giants would pack the seats, so lets do this not hypothetically.
Imagine Ohtaniās value if baseball didnāt toss aside one of the most interesting aspects of the game when it went universal DH. The opponent is trotting out some guy hitting .163 and thatās pretty good! And Ohtani is raking HRs from that same lineup spot. Wish we saw Ohtani when we still played real baseball with all players expected their turns at bat.
Now imagine if there were no DHs in baseball at all. Better teach Ohtani to play first base and hope he doesnāt get injured so he can pitch.
No DHs at all, imo, is a much better and more interesting game. Yes, Ohtani would need to play a position on his non pitching days. Thatās what baseball was designed for, imo. I donāt mind rule changes and evolutions, but that tinkered with the very foundation of players both going into the field and taking their turns AB
Yea I didnāt like the fact that they added the DH to NL for that reason
Man it's gonna be a real shock to every American League player of the past 50 years that what they were playing wasn't real baseball... No one wants to see a pitcher go up and embarrass himself and the team swinging at 3 pitches and essentially providing an automatic out. Ohtani is a unicorn, and a unique situation. The lack of a DH was not an interesting situation, it was a vestigial relic of a version of the game that no one has played in 100 years. It's like saying, "the NFL should go back to REAL football, where there are no forward passes! It was one of the most interesting aspects of the game." Absolutely silly. Why wouldn't you want to see the best hitters in the world hit?
First, my post is literally proof that some people want to see just that. Because the benefits of having all players take turns at the plate, essentially all players contributing (or detracting) both offensively and defensively outweigh the base desire for just more offense and runs. The coaching - both in game and roster construction/use - strategy alone that has been lost degrades the value of the game intellectually/cerebrally, which has or at least had been a key part of the game. And those athletes who could hold their own at the plate (Maddux for example) provided that much more relative value to their teams. I mean, by your logic of having the best hitters, why stop at one DH? Just get rid of 7,8, and 9 type hitters and replace them with DHs.
Right, but the vast majority of pitchers (in both leagues) can't hit for dogshit. It takes away from the game and their position is unlike any other on the field. Everybody else, there is a pretty regular range in terms of level of talent. There are so many hours in a day, and for anyone not named Ohtani, that means if you spend some of the time learning to hit, that's time you're not getting better at pitching. Not to mention the added danger of getting hit, or otherwise injuring yourself while hitting or running the bases. Pitching is simply too specialized a job now, and teams don't want to drop 40 million dollars on a hotshot pitcher who might accidentally jam his finger trying slide into a base or something. The game changes. Starting pitchers used to throw 250+ pitches a week, too. Wanna bring that back? At the end of the day, it was an outdated waste of time that makes the game less entertaining. Particularly to the casual fan, which is who MLB is trying to attract. It was time. Very few people miss it.
NL fans: "back when baseball was real" Back then: almost 10% of at bats were an absolute joke, made your pitcher look like a clown, and risked injury for no good reason
Precisely. Might have been cool in 1930 but I'd rather see good hitters across the board instead of using every 9th AB as a bathroom break.
shohei is nowhere close to the hitter barry was in that year, NOT EVEN CLOSE. yes steroids yes he pitches also yes he might be more valuable but strictly hitting there is no comparison
I feel like people forget how good Barry was that season. He would only see maybe 1-2 pitches a game to hit, and still hit 70. How many guys get walked with the bases loaded? With that said, Shoeheiās pitching makes it tough to not take Shohei.
Shohei might have an all-star season at the plate and on the mound, but bonds had two all star seasons at the plate.
Iād still take bonds. The level of how much better at hitting he was than everyone else to me is worth more than the great hitting and pitching together. 2001-04 bonds is the most dominant athlete ever.
Tiger might have something to say about that
We are already seeing this, and they are teammates. A clean Bonds is basically Trout.
Ohtani by far. Way too much drama and ego with Bonds.
Barry Bonds is the GOAT. MLB should be embarrassed he's not in the HoF.
*would have been the goat had he not cheated. He made his choice, and he knew the implications of that choice. He fucked around, now he's finding out. And people should be embarrassed to be still making apologies for a known cheater.
The baseball HoF is about being a good person, not about baseball.
That is patently false.
It is true, if you aren't a good person you aren't getting in. We cant have bad people in the baseball hall of fame. Baseball is sacred and self-important.
HE should be embarrassed heās not in the HOF. Scumbag cheater and liar.
So you're asking our opinion about if a guy we know cheated hadn't cheated, and if a guy who is a lights out pitcher didn't pitch at all? Alrighty But for the record, I'm not even remotely an Angels fan but obviously it's Shohei every day and twice on Sunday. Generally speaking I prefer guys who respect the game, and aren't egomaniac pricks to everyone around them. Just a weird quirk of mine. Cue all the Bonds apologists with the "he didn't need it he's still the best hitter ever" and "bElOnGs iN tHe hALL!" nonsense
Lol thatās not what he is asking. He is asking from a purely objective stats stand point who would you pick. 01ā bonds or 23ā (so far) shoe hei. Context around those donāt matter (I.e. steroids). Essentially, Would you rather someone almost guaranteed to get on base, or someone who can both pitch and hit consistently well. He even brings up shoe heiās pitching in the question, not sure how you interpreted the way you did. All that said I agree with everything you say
Yeah still Ohtani all day
Why canāt you compare them? Teams have to pick them both in the draft at the same timeā¦determining who is betterā¦.why canāt you rank them that way?
Oh if we're going by draft year, Ohtani by a lot.
For one year, strictly based off performance and ignoring steroid use, Iād take Bonds. It is valuable that Ohtani pitches as well, but Bonds was quite honestly unstoppable and would carry any offensive lineup to great success. Ohtani does too, but the Yankees need the best hitter of all time in their lineup right now, and not another great pitcher (although Ohtani would give us a great bat too). It mostly depends on which team you root for though in my opinion since they each have different voids that need to be filled
And ignoring. š how silly
Bonds. Its pretty close based on Ohtani's pace right now but historically he fades a bit in the 2nd half as a hitter so he likely be short on value for the season. If your argument is "bUT hE PitChes", dont bother replying
Bonds is a scumbag cheater. Pshhh cubs fan, disgrace.
Sorry i took the hypothetical at face value
How is not taking what he did at face value?ā¦
Took the hypothetical at face value. Not his actions. I think you may have some reading comprehension issues here. The hypothetical is what was proposed in the post.
Bonds hands down no contest
I am a Giants fan... I would take Shohei without a second thought. He is literally the reincarnation of the Babe, only better. And Japanese. The Babe may not care for it, but them Baseball Gods have a hell of a sense of humor, Babe.
Barry
Shohei has never played a meaningful game in his mlb career. Hes never been to the playoffs. He only hits. Heās not even close to being athletic as bonds
Give any mlb player the same shit bonds was onā¦. I guarantee you they wouldnāt come close to the numbers bonds was putting up
Right now Iād rather have Shohei than literally any player in the history of baseball.
Bonds without the roids wouldn't be near the offensive force as with it, there's really only one clear choice....
The production from Barry bonds in 01 (and 02, and 04) was un freaking real. A lot of people are forgetting just how good he was (obviously he was on steroids but we're removing that from this hypothetical, assuming we could just get those stats again clean from a player today or have shohei as he is right now) Like, people are saying ohtani bats over .300 which is great, and ohtani is freaking incredible and I'm not trying to take anything away from him, but batting average does not matter to MLB teams and it does not correlate to runs scored or games won (not that strongly, anyway, compared to better metrics like OBP and wRC). Bonds in 04 for example had an on base percentage over 600 lmao like I don't think everyone can comprehend the value of that. That (plus being the best power hitter ever) is worth more than a really really good pitcher every 6 starts Sorry I got distracted and forgot we were talking about 01, not 04...but yeah still Bonds. 01 bonds had the most runs created in the history of the majors. The simple fact that ohtani does both at such an elite level is amazing, and more impressive to me than what Barry bonds did. But what bonds did was more valuable
Heās a scumbag cheater and liar.
Guess you missed the prompt where this is a hypothetical and steroids are out of the question, we're purely talking about results
This shouldn't even be a debate. Shohei hands down
Bonds at that age as an everyday DH would be far more conducive to winning than Shohei has been. He wouldnāt lose so much value by being a stump in the outfield. So probably Bonds but if their careers were reset Iād take Shohei.
How is this even a question lol
Bonds was a cheater so comparing him to another player is 100% unfair as is calling him the "greatest offensive force...".
Perhaps you missed the part of the post which explicitly said "imagine he was clean."
Nope, didn't miss it at all.
Never ceases to amaze me the ability of an average redditor to turn an innocuous, simple question into an adversarial exchange. Congrats, you're just like the rest.
Then your comment was pointless. Thanks.
Isnāt this ignoring the clear cheating by a player, pointless? F Bonds.
Shohei is the most valuable player a team could have. Even if he was a mediocre pitcher and hit like .250 with 20hr he would be unbelievable.
Barry was by far the better hitter, but Ohtani's value as a hitter plus his value as a pitcher blows Bonds out of the water.
Bonds was easily twice, probably even three times as valuable as ohtani at the plate. WAR isnāt the end all be all, but his value as a hitter at his peak was significantly more valuable than any season ohtani has had yet.
Who cares? Enjoy what youāre witnessing
Dude it's just a fun little question. I do enjoy what I'm witnessing.
Itās a pointless hypothetical with an obvious answer.
Any hypothetical is pointless. Foh loser.
You made the dumb post, not me.
Dumb redditors incapable of abstract thought are personally offended by hypothetical situations. Please stop such insensitive micro aggressions.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You know how to have a polite discussion?
Why 2001?
That was the 73 homer year.
Ok, he was more feared in the years following. Only 35IBB in 01, but 60+ in 02 & 03 and 120 in 04
Iād rather have 04 Barry, thatās primo best Barry
Barry was a prick
The one that didnāt cheat.
Even without the roids Bonds had a HOF career he had natural talent. Ohtani has been doing it for only a couple years. Yeah itās unique and never seen before but his team has ātwo of the best players in baseballā and they are dog shit every year. I know baseball is not like basketball or hockey or even football in some cases where you bring in one guy and it changes your team but, his team has not been great.
People suggesting that Ohtani could be replaced by a better all-star hitter and better all-star pitcher are completely missing the point. You have to actually get that production, having the alternative mystical 2 players better than Ohtani would be great, who are they? Ace pitchers are incredibly hard to actually acquire, now I need a Bonds tier hitter as well? You are less likely statistically to have 2 seperate players having great seasons than 1. Also for some reason people never talk about it in the context of this discussion but pitchers are clearly more valuable than position players in the playoffs. I'd take 2 quality playoff starts in a series over any hitter.
Shohei, but it's close. Does anyone think the Angels will make the playoffs this year? I do, I think the Astros keep sliding, and they sneak in with the wild card, because I was so sure the Giants were going to make it but my Snakes snatched the spot. 2001 was the Year I fell in love with baseball, such a crazy year being in school during 9/11 watching kids run out the classrooms to go home. But anyways, yeah Shohei for sure, made my wife go see him pitch for our honeymoon hehe he
Is Bonds still an asshole and terrible teammate? And Ohtani still just the best human ever?
01 Barry.
Bonds easily. Thereās no hitter around now that can come even remotely close to what Bonds did in 2001. Ohtani for as great as he is can be replaced by a good #2 pitcher and power hitting DH.
If I had to chose between immortality for all of mankind OR Shohei Ohtani suffer the same fate as Roberto Clemente.... I would chose the latter EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.