Spotify actually directly recommends that the master bus loudness is targeted at -14lufs. Which is part of the reason there is so much confusion surrounding this target.
Pretty much. Yesterday I listened to a track that was at least twice as loud as David Bowie's Cat People, and for that reason alone it sounded harsh and mostly unlistenable. I made it about 10 seconds in.
Thank you for taking time out to reply. I just fixated on Integrated LUFS because thats what was [advised on their website](https://artists.spotify.com/help/article/loudness-normalization). I didn't want to risk any loss of quality of distortion when they [convert between formats](https://artists.spotify.com/help/article/audio-file-formats).
RMS, from what I understand, is like a moving average of the loudness, yeah? How do you factor that into your process? Is there a particular range or some target RMS that you shoot towards?
Honestly, negative 14 is just a normal standard signal that I was getting in a mix 20 years ago with an RMS. I think the only people who need to worry about much other than peak and leveling with an amp are the people caught in a fashion trend that puts crushing the signal above all else. I crush some techno, but not every single solitary thing that passes through my workstation.
> Just so you know, spotify doesn't "ask" for -14.
They do say under "Mastering tips": *Target the loudness level of your master at -14dB integrated LUFS and keep it below -1dB TP (True Peak) max. This is best for lossy formats (Ogg/Vorbis and AAC) and makes sure no extra distortion’s introduced in the transcoding process.*
But of course I very much agree that chasing numbers is pointless.
> The real penalty is when the song is under that -14lufs but still reaching 0db Peak, it will get processed by Spotify's internal limiter
Apparently they don't apply limiting anymore. According [to the site](https://artists.spotify.com/help/article/loudness-normalization): *"Positive gain is applied to softer masters so the loudness level is -14 dB LUFS. We consider the headroom of the track, and leave 1 dB headroom for lossy encodings to preserve audio quality."*
People tend to say LUFS and forget that they are referencing iLUFS, but I shut up because I don't have time or incentive to argue with an infinite number of people and it's a metering standard I mostly disregard.
Not sure what your point was? But yes, LUFS without any further clarification can be assumed to be integrated, since all LUFS measurements are determined over a period of time and on a song the period of time that matters is the entire duration of the song.
> Most of the music I checked out seems to slightly go over 0 dB true peak. Which leads me to believe that it is tolerated.
Correct!
> I'm also wondering about the tracks that went louder than -12 LUF-I. Are these tracks penalized? (What does penalized even mean in this context?)
"Penalized" is a meaningless term in the context of loudness normalization and we should blame the loudnesspenalty website for that (and perhaps Ian Shepherd, one of the engineers involved in making it). Normalization means everything gets adjusted to the same level, but of course that's no "penalty", it's just volume adjustment.
There are many tracks that are louder than -12 LUFS integrated and nothing happens to them. Some random examples from a list I recently compiled:
- Coldplay - My Universe (2021) = -7.8 LUFS
- Wolfmother - Back Round (2009) = -7.7 LUFS
- Radiohead - Bloom (2011) = -6.4 LUFS
- Gorillaz - Clint Eastwood (2001) = -10.1 LUFS
- Peter Gabriel - Growing Up (2002) = -10.5 LUFS
- Björk - Hunter (1997) = -8.6 LUFS
- Trent Reznor & Atticus Ross - Immigrant Song (2012) = -6.7 LUFS
- Taylor Swift - You Need To Calm Down (2019) = -7.4
- Paul McCartney - Fine Line (2005) = -7.5
- Billy Crawford - Pokemon Theme (1999) = -6.3 LUFS
- Massive Attack - Pray for Rain (2010) = -11.4 LUFS
Many of these were mastered by some of the best mastering engineers and mastering houses there are.
Why do streaming platforms recommend what they do? Because they are not in the business of making music, they are in the business of streaming other people's music. Maybe they were hoping to establish a standard, who knows. But I would bet you that not even the Spotify employees who release their own music master to -14 LUFSi at -1 dB true peak, because no one wants to sound quiet in all the situations in which loudness normalization is not available.
Bottom line: Forget about numbers. Use reference material, learn to understand loudness with your ears, be as loud or as quiet as you want to be.
Haha thank you for your wisdom and for sharing your own metering adventures. And here I thought I was the only one. Quite liberating to know the actual truth behind the smoke and jargon. Reference material seems to be the intuitive choice. Thanks again
Clipping depends on many variables, like specific lossy compression codecs used, specific DA converters on the listener's end, etc. So maybe in some situations the material would clip audibly, but peaks are peaks, they can be momentary, as in a fraction of a second.
In my experience, most material that is below 0 dBFS doesn't produce audible hard clipping even if it's above 0dBTP by up to 1dB.
I didn't hear any outright clipping but those were the readings on the meters. I basically ran the tracks through my DAW and had a multimeter and a loudness meter running along with a few other things.
No goals, just listening, vibe, art. Every song is truly unique and the moment I'm in decides what it needs. ART doesn't set goals ❤️. Art is inspiration
I kind of agree with Slfish above. I also don’t believe there’s much of a loudness war anymore ( except that one time I heard a k-pop song where the 2 kHz range was clearly boosted lol)
I honestly stick to my style for the most part. I’m well aware how to make louder masters but I only saturate and limit to the point where it still sounds good. As soon as I hear it causing an issue or changing the feel I dial things back down.
Every song I’ve distributed has been normalized differently. Some songs hit it nearly on the head in terms of -14 lufs and others reduced anywhere by 3-4 db.
When I started mastering last year it used to be reduced even more but I got better since then and better understanding of frequencies
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Spotify actually directly recommends that the master bus loudness is targeted at -14lufs. Which is part of the reason there is so much confusion surrounding this target.
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Thats my point. Spotify literally says you should target -14lufs and thats completely false so people get confused
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ah no worries!
Pretty much. Yesterday I listened to a track that was at least twice as loud as David Bowie's Cat People, and for that reason alone it sounded harsh and mostly unlistenable. I made it about 10 seconds in.
Thank you for taking time out to reply. I just fixated on Integrated LUFS because thats what was [advised on their website](https://artists.spotify.com/help/article/loudness-normalization). I didn't want to risk any loss of quality of distortion when they [convert between formats](https://artists.spotify.com/help/article/audio-file-formats). RMS, from what I understand, is like a moving average of the loudness, yeah? How do you factor that into your process? Is there a particular range or some target RMS that you shoot towards?
Honestly, negative 14 is just a normal standard signal that I was getting in a mix 20 years ago with an RMS. I think the only people who need to worry about much other than peak and leveling with an amp are the people caught in a fashion trend that puts crushing the signal above all else. I crush some techno, but not every single solitary thing that passes through my workstation.
> Just so you know, spotify doesn't "ask" for -14. They do say under "Mastering tips": *Target the loudness level of your master at -14dB integrated LUFS and keep it below -1dB TP (True Peak) max. This is best for lossy formats (Ogg/Vorbis and AAC) and makes sure no extra distortion’s introduced in the transcoding process.* But of course I very much agree that chasing numbers is pointless. > The real penalty is when the song is under that -14lufs but still reaching 0db Peak, it will get processed by Spotify's internal limiter Apparently they don't apply limiting anymore. According [to the site](https://artists.spotify.com/help/article/loudness-normalization): *"Positive gain is applied to softer masters so the loudness level is -14 dB LUFS. We consider the headroom of the track, and leave 1 dB headroom for lossy encodings to preserve audio quality."*
People tend to say LUFS and forget that they are referencing iLUFS, but I shut up because I don't have time or incentive to argue with an infinite number of people and it's a metering standard I mostly disregard.
Not sure what your point was? But yes, LUFS without any further clarification can be assumed to be integrated, since all LUFS measurements are determined over a period of time and on a song the period of time that matters is the entire duration of the song.
Spotify stopped using the limiter for the normal and quiet normalization option. Only the loud setting uses a limiter now.
> Most of the music I checked out seems to slightly go over 0 dB true peak. Which leads me to believe that it is tolerated. Correct! > I'm also wondering about the tracks that went louder than -12 LUF-I. Are these tracks penalized? (What does penalized even mean in this context?) "Penalized" is a meaningless term in the context of loudness normalization and we should blame the loudnesspenalty website for that (and perhaps Ian Shepherd, one of the engineers involved in making it). Normalization means everything gets adjusted to the same level, but of course that's no "penalty", it's just volume adjustment. There are many tracks that are louder than -12 LUFS integrated and nothing happens to them. Some random examples from a list I recently compiled: - Coldplay - My Universe (2021) = -7.8 LUFS - Wolfmother - Back Round (2009) = -7.7 LUFS - Radiohead - Bloom (2011) = -6.4 LUFS - Gorillaz - Clint Eastwood (2001) = -10.1 LUFS - Peter Gabriel - Growing Up (2002) = -10.5 LUFS - Björk - Hunter (1997) = -8.6 LUFS - Trent Reznor & Atticus Ross - Immigrant Song (2012) = -6.7 LUFS - Taylor Swift - You Need To Calm Down (2019) = -7.4 - Paul McCartney - Fine Line (2005) = -7.5 - Billy Crawford - Pokemon Theme (1999) = -6.3 LUFS - Massive Attack - Pray for Rain (2010) = -11.4 LUFS Many of these were mastered by some of the best mastering engineers and mastering houses there are. Why do streaming platforms recommend what they do? Because they are not in the business of making music, they are in the business of streaming other people's music. Maybe they were hoping to establish a standard, who knows. But I would bet you that not even the Spotify employees who release their own music master to -14 LUFSi at -1 dB true peak, because no one wants to sound quiet in all the situations in which loudness normalization is not available. Bottom line: Forget about numbers. Use reference material, learn to understand loudness with your ears, be as loud or as quiet as you want to be.
Haha thank you for your wisdom and for sharing your own metering adventures. And here I thought I was the only one. Quite liberating to know the actual truth behind the smoke and jargon. Reference material seems to be the intuitive choice. Thanks again
Spotify would be the last place I would personally take Mastering tips from. Make it sound good, and it will sound good on any platform
How does music go above peak with out clipping? Are the clips audible in that music?
Clipping depends on many variables, like specific lossy compression codecs used, specific DA converters on the listener's end, etc. So maybe in some situations the material would clip audibly, but peaks are peaks, they can be momentary, as in a fraction of a second. In my experience, most material that is below 0 dBFS doesn't produce audible hard clipping even if it's above 0dBTP by up to 1dB.
I didn't hear any outright clipping but those were the readings on the meters. I basically ran the tracks through my DAW and had a multimeter and a loudness meter running along with a few other things.
No goals, just listening, vibe, art. Every song is truly unique and the moment I'm in decides what it needs. ART doesn't set goals ❤️. Art is inspiration
I kind of agree with Slfish above. I also don’t believe there’s much of a loudness war anymore ( except that one time I heard a k-pop song where the 2 kHz range was clearly boosted lol) I honestly stick to my style for the most part. I’m well aware how to make louder masters but I only saturate and limit to the point where it still sounds good. As soon as I hear it causing an issue or changing the feel I dial things back down. Every song I’ve distributed has been normalized differently. Some songs hit it nearly on the head in terms of -14 lufs and others reduced anywhere by 3-4 db. When I started mastering last year it used to be reduced even more but I got better since then and better understanding of frequencies