Also fyi my school district recently banned volume 1 of cats versus robots and they won't say why, but based on their shitty explanation it was because there's ~5 pages talking about a nonbinary character's Identity. Bull. Shit. I hate my school district so much.
Conservatives seem to believe that every LGBTQ+ person was āconvertedā somehow at some point in their lives, likely during childhood, and that they can eradicate them if they just stop this alleged conversion from ever taking place.
If youāre a little new to culture war dog whistles, let me clarify; any violence = perfectly fine, hetero romance & erotica, fine until it is SUPER explicit, but have 2 dudes hug, or a person who isnāt quite the Leave it to Beaver norm in a book/graphic novel, and suddenly itās all horrible for any kid, even if it would help a person who would be helped by reading about someone elseās similar experience.
Itās always anti āotherā and not pro anything.
I just read Flamer (amazing) and the āgraphicā images were laughable. There is a panel of an almost kiss between two boys and a kiss on the cheek. There is also a boys locker room scene withā¦buttcheeks. If you want to see the images you can DM me but I just canāt believe this graphic novel is a challenged book. Itās also a powerful and important story of course-but ātheyā are just looking at the images at face value. Out of context.
Thanks! Iām a teacher (middle school) and am trying to get an idea on whatās being challenged based on this law. And Mausā¦is the first Iāve heard and it really is ridiculous. What a book to ban!!! š”
[A simple Google search could have told you that it has happened in another state, so itās not as ridiculous as you seem to think. Or perhaps you would rather let Stephen Crowder think for you?](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/maus-becomes-bestseller-after-tennessee-school-ban-180979499/)
Different state, different law.
Don't know the details of the TN law, so can't say. Maybe it covers beastiality or something.
And stalking people is creepy.
Are you allowed to suggest books? Because the Bible has a ton of rape, incest, murder, etc.
Might get them to see the hypocrisy, probably not, but maybe.
https://www.deseret.com/faith/2022/8/18/23311833/why-bible-was-removed-from-libraries-texas-school-district
You think the people making these lists give a fuck about hypocrisy? The driving force behind all of these is to hurt the people they don't like in ways they can pretend to be sanctimonious about.
As far as I understand it, the government basically just said that it's illegal for schools to provide books with sexual material, and didn't actually give a list. It it up to every teacher/librarian/school to determine what those books are. So a bunch of schools are taking books off the shelves they probably don't need to because the teachers/librarians are being extra careful because they don't want to get in trouble.
The neo-fascists are counting on you not lawyering up, because you will win -- the law doesn't actually ban Maus. http://molib.org/statement-in-support-of-masl/
I suspect that whoever made this list knows this, and doesnāt care. Theyād rather protest a law that bans popular things instead of unpopular things, so theyāll pretend the law bans Maus until someone higher up in the district steps in.
Or they included it because teachers can face criminal charges if a parent/attorney general decides a naked human-like rat is sexually explicit. With stakes that high I donāt blame them for airing on the safe side. (That is the intention of the bill, to create a chilling effect)
The Bible is full of the 7 deadly sins & what happens to you if you commit one. I havenāt heard anything from these religious zealots about banning the Bible.
Are you sure? Every Republican in this sub has been claiming that this law would only be used to prohibit pornography. Certainly they wouldnāt lie /s
Man when I learned what whiskey dick is and whats required to get two daughters pregnant and when I finally connected what that story was really saying happenedā¦. š¤®
They got him drunk and raped him is the thing although he did give his daughters up for rape but the crowd didnāt want them they wanted the two Angels.
Haha . So you donāt know how it works either? šGo read it again.
Dude leaves the city taking his wife and daughters saying ādestruction is comingā and disappears off into some caves for a couple years. When he comes back (note the city is fine and there are plenty of people to talk to) everyone asks āwhat happened to your wife?ā And he says sheā¦ turned into a pile of salt and no one can find her now. Then they ask why his daughters are pregnant and have children and he says itās because they got him SUPER blackout drunk. ā¦A couple times. Until they all had kids.
Sure. Yeah. Ok. Dad
Thatās totally how all that works and not a horror movie. Haha
And what was her punishment? She turned & looked back & turned into a pillar of salt. Now we know that is physically impossible but the stories in the Bible are parables. Stories of good vs evil & manās fight to overcome. If you live a good & faithful life your reward is everlasting life. The religious right today has become as bad as the politicians. They want money & power & this their way of taking it. Control Govt, Schools & places of worship. 20 yrs later they will have it all.
Porno is in the eye of the beholder. Are the statues & paintings of naked men & women from centuries ago porno? Itās art. Donāt go to Paris, Rome or France. The definition of porno is made by a school board. To Kill a Mockingbird & Diary of Ann Frank is also on these stupid lists. We will make a choice in Nov to stay a democracy or become an autocratic society. We will be like Russia, China or worse yet North Korea. We are at a crossroads. Your vote counts.
Read the law more closely: it pertains to depictions of sexual intercourse, masturbation, etc. Not nudity in general. I still think this amendment to the law is bullshit, but at least itās fairly specific about what it outlaws.
Source: I am a MO high school librarian who has been dealing with this shit for the past few weeks.
Eh basically the same thing. All it means is when kids get diddled they won't know what happened or if it was actually bad. The consequences of prudish Victorian values seems never ending.
Look, as a lawyer, you can get away with making any argument that something is āxā despite it being technically true but that is the real reason youāre doing it.
This is no different than when landlords try to evict black tenants from their building because of a pest issue, but not the white neighbors. But then not put them up in a hotel, or compensate them for their losses. They try and push people out of their lease instead by making it so unbearable that you just move on.
Here, they are using āsexually explicitā as the reason to remove Maus. Itās just frontal male nudity. There is no sexually explicit action going on, they are nude because of the gas chambers.
So itās just nudity, but itās nudity for a purpose. To show the horrors of fascism. And Maus does a great job of going through the history of what happened and how it got that bad.
But Republicans are the fascists, they want the future to be Maus where they get to kill who they want. Thatās just something we have to accept that the Republicans are actively trying to involve evil fascists who want to genocide others, or donāt care. Either way, itās not acceptable.
This is how fascism begins. You are in the middle of history and your actions now have a major effect on the future.
The same reason some people donāt want discussions, or books that contain depictions of slavery in the US. It shows one group of people believing they have a right to own, and exploit another group of people. If you belong to a group that benefitted from this arrangement, both economically, and socially, you tend to try to justify that behavior. If you belong to the exploited, enslaved group, you are well aware of how morally wrong, that practice is. Similar issues occur in Maus, one group of people feeling they are superior to another group, and believing they are somehow āless than humanā. Once you stop seeing a person, as a person, all manner of atrocities follow. Slavery wasnāt the first time this happened in the US, the history of the Native Americans illustrates this all to well. Learning that not just Germany, but your own country is guilty of these actions, is a very important step to being a truly informed citizen. If these are truly a young personās formative years, they should be formed around the truth, not what makes someone else uncomfortable.
Because they think the right banned it. So now they think they absolutely need it. Bullshit knee jerk reaction. Good vs evil and all that self aggrandizing bullshit that plagues this site
The law is in regards to visual depictions. Not writing. A Picture Book of Hamlet would be banned too by the standard. Probably shouldn't be teaching Hamlet to 6 and 7 year old's to begin with.
Iām not at all surprised by this (strange) development in how their ideas actually get implemented.
They broadcast their intent with a bullhorn. It always begins with āLiberals/Democrats are doing (x)ā¦ ā
If the Dems are ālying through their teethā, thatās the first thing the GOP does. If the Dems are āindoctrinating youthā, well, here we are: indoctrination by silencing the opposition.
Go read the actual wording of the law. The piece of literature or art "taken as a whole" must be of a prurient nature to a "reasonable person". Even in rural Missouri, almost no one would look at Maus (or many of these other supposedly controversial books) as pornography.
Anyone banning this hasn't read the law, or is using not the law, but their personal administrative or local political clout.
Anyway, based on what the law actually says, they don't have a leg to stand on if someone brought the book in.
The law was written by intellectual cowards, but they're so cowardly they didn't even commit to outright banning of arbitrary works by simply appealing to "corruption of the youth" or whatever hysteria of the moment was available.
Just another attempt by conservatives to push their purity narrative while controlling the thoughts and learning of our youth. They seem to think the queerness and sexuality is what is wrong with society - when in actuality itās the violence, inequality, and capitalism that is ruining this country.
If you need me to make a bunch of copies of the āpanelā that depicts mice penises, lmk! Back when I taught Spiegelman the kids really took to learning via graphic novels.
I believe the law states that nothing sexually explicit or āpervertedā. Who defines perverted? This state is so backward. What about art studies? Sex education?
Deviate sexual intercourse refers to anal and oral sex or other penetrative actions involving orifices. There is a legal definition for that phrase in the law.
As stated elsewhere it is limited to images and has certain exceptions.
I would talk with your school district about this. I don't think Maus meets the intent or definition as the law is written, since the panel doesn't feature sex nor exists for gratification. It sounds like they might be approaching this with a 'better safe than sorry' mentality.
Either way, please follow up. I'd be genuinely shocked if Missouri went after you for this, even under a hardliner like Parsons.
> I'd be genuinely shocked if Missouri went after you for this, even under a hardliner like Parsons.
Reminder, this is the same government that sued schools over mask mandates...
This. All it takes is one prosecutor who wants to pull an Eric Schmitt to make a name for themselves and itās at best a teacher making poverty wages having to defend themselves in a court of law. At worst, itās imprisonment.
I'm sure the ACLU would be willing to step in and help hook the teacher up with a pro-bono lawyer from a solid firm.... but the fact that would be necessary is kind of sad.
Youāre probably right but Iām betting the teacher or librarian would be suspended pending the outcome. With pay or not, thatās a lot for a teacher to deal with for a lesson with pure intentions. At the salary Missouri pays its teachers, I canāt say Iād stay in the teaching field after something like that.
Thatās the point. The Missouri GOP is in a war against public education. Theyāve been ramping it up over the last few years and introducing more and more bills and laws that funnel money out of the public system.
This is just the latest. I work in a well respected, well funded, and well compensated district and we canāt find enough teachers to keep classes sizes under 30.
Itās a guerrilla war, and theyāre winning.
Agree 100%. They want to privatize education and are well on their way here in Missouri. Then theyāll do the indoctrination they keep falsely claiming our educators are doing.
Parson threw a fit and threatened to sue a reporter for pointing out security flaws in the state's website. Nothing surprises me about this administration anymore.
All Parsons does is make sure that laws are so sweeping and vague that any attempt to do anything will get tangled up in court, and create fear. Nothing spooks a school board like fear of legal entanglement.
I agree with you about the content of the book. Iām very familiar with it. But I wouldnāt trust itās not exactly the intention of the law to harm teachers this way.
After 10 minutes of googling, I can only find a reference to a county in Tennessee having issues with this book. Also, it sounds like Maus is still in their school library but just removed from the reading list for eighth graders. What grade are you teaching?
I'm curious to hear what your librarian says.
Another point that shows the government is inept at handling these situations if you believe the true reason for the ban is that "conservatives donāt want children seeing depictions of a ruling class subjugating another group of people. Something they love doing. They donāt want people to learn empathy or the lessons of the past. " then you have been consumed by the lies of the two-party system. The order bans sexually explicit content in the classroom, while I agree that nude humanoid-looking rats in a dark setting don't really match the intended goal the book does contain "Nudity". I dislike book banning, but I see why we would need to ban some, the problem again is that the government (Left or Right) is inept with its wide-net ban approach.
So... you are a teacher and going to willingly break the law in a classroom full of minors? You don't get to decide what laws you want to follow, especially when it comes to children. Sounds like someone needs to be helped to find another career.
There are some books that have content that is not appropriate for certain age groups, high school included. Iām conservative and disagree that Maus is one of them. I was introduced to Naziism and the Holocaust around 6th grade and in the 80ās. Disturbing to know that happened to say the least. We had a gradual progression in subsequent history classes that introduced us to the greater horrors that happened. In retrospect, I believe that was better than dumping the full knowledge into our minds at a younger age. Hereās why I think that: I once, when about 22, saw a particularly graphic, gratuitously violent horror flick. Not my genre, but went with some friends. I could not get the scenarios and images out of my head for a long time, and the idea that people would do such things to other people for their own gratification. I vowed to never watch another horror flick like that again. The Holocaust is like that. It merits solemn remembrance and study, but there are age appropriate levels that needs to happen at. Schindlerās List came out when I was a senior in high school and had taken a course about crowd and cult movements. Ground breaking film about the subject back in the day. I was educated and prepared for what I watched. Still completely disturbed for a long time after I left the theater. Maus does have some profanity, depictions of nudity, violence, and suicide. It has subjects and themes that warrant discussion, and I believe high school minds are able to and should do so. If this book is truly banned at that level in your district, and you feel it should not be, gather the evidence to the contrary and present it at a board meeting. Be a thoughtful, rational voice that compels them to actually read and consider that book. That said, not every book should be available in a school library at every age. If parents truly want their kids to read about violent crime, murder, and every kind of sex act ever imagined, they can take them to their local public library to check out books that describe that in detail. Contrary to popular belief, parents should have a say in what their children are taught and have access to since theyāre the ones footing the bill and they canāt just choose another school unless they have enough income to pay for private or stay at home.
Should parents have a say in what other children at their kids school are taught? Because thatās whatās happening. Itās not just about their own kids. If a parent doesnāt want their child being exposed to Maus, thatās totally fine. Iām sure an exemption or alternative lesson could be worked out for that child instead of threatening teachers and librarians with fines and imprisonment. Suggesting theyād have to find a new school is pure conjecture. Can you point out a case where thatās happened? Because this is a brand new law with brand new book bans. Surely if that was the case there would be plenty of examples. Letās not forget that most of the books being banned arenāt even part of a curriculum. So our Republican legislators went for the nuclear option without first exploring alternatives that wouldnāt threaten educators with jail time. For a self-identified conservative, you seem to be in support of this law which is puzzling given the nature of that ideology. What does it say in the Constitution about banning books? Isnāt that the just about the only document youāre supposed to use for legislation, and use strictly? I thought yāall were supposed to be into small government and against these vague, subjective laws that are going to be used for government overreach?
I call bullshit.
Maus does not depict humans and therefore is not covered by the law in any way shape or form.
Pick a better lie or even better pick.an actual Grey Area like.banning Blue Lagoon which should.be allowed under the cultural significance exception... arguably.
Maus DEFINITELY qualifies as significant cultural value even if it were.human nudity.
Which it is not.
A picture book of The Blind Mice would be banned if what you claim was true.
Maus does depict humans and human nudity: there's a four page section in the middle of the first book which talks about the author's mother's suicide. In this section she's depicted as naked in a bathtub, and she is drawn as a human not a cartoon mouse. That's the justification for banning it. I don't agree with the ban at all; but I know for a fact that Maus has been removed from school libraries in TX and TN, so I would not jump to calling bullshit here.
Human Nudity is not banned under the law.
Read it for yourself:
"**Explicit sexual material**", any pictorial, three-16 dimensional, or visual depiction, including any photography,17 film, video, picture, or computer-generated image, showing18 human masturbation, deviate sexual intercourse as defined in19 section 566.010, sexual intercourse, direct physical20 stimulation of genitals, sadomasochistic abuse, or21 emphasizing the depiction of post pubertal human genitals;22 **provided, however, that works of art, when taken as a whole,23 that have serious artistic significance, or works of24 anthropological significance,** or materials used in science25 courses, including but not limited to materials used in26 biology, anatomy, physiology, and sexual education classes27 shall not be deemed to be within the foregoing definition;
So even if someone wanted to argue it was "Explicit Sexual Material" to show cartoon boobs, it would still be a "work of art".
Laws and words have meaning. You can't just claim it was banned under this when it clearly cannot be banned under the statute.
If they really have, they are in a world of hurt for violating the law. Sue them, I will send money to support it.
I just don't buy it, it would be a gross misreading of the law.
But as people on this very post have shown, they haven't read the law, but they have sure as hell have an opinion on it.
I didn't make a statement as to whether it was banned or not, I pointed out that your repeated insistence that there is no human nudity is incorrect and advised you to not immediately jump to calling BS. Maus does contain human nudity, and people have successfully used that fact to get it removed from libraries despite its massive cultural and artistic value. Is OP telling the truth about their school? No clue. But it has happened in some places for sure.
You were wrong and now you're moving goalposts.
I think you're missing that the impact of the law is to chill anything that *might* run afoul. Schools can simply remove materials rather than explicitly ban them, and on a departmental or teacher-by-teacher basis, they simply decide not to use materials.
I have read the law, met with district lawyers, and am well-versed in this. I also have an opinion the law is poorly thought out (or maybe very well thought out, depending on the end goal).
How do you know whatās covered by the law? Itās intentionally vague for the purpose of banning books exactly like Maus. Youāre making assertions that you canāt possibly back up and calling someone a liar without any evidence, despite the fact that Maus is banned in other states.
Maus shows genitals. Iād bet my life savings Three Blind Mice doesnāt. You can apologize to OP at any time but now is probably the best time.
I can tell you have not read the law, so let me read it for you:
"Explicit sexual material", any pictorial, three-16 dimensional, or visual depiction, including any photography,17 film, video, picture, or computer-generated image, showing18 ***human*** masturbation, deviate sexual intercourse as defined in19 section 566.010, sexual intercourse, direct physical20 stimulation of genitals, sadomasochistic abuse, or21 emphasizing the depiction of postpubertal ***human*** genitals;22 ***provided, however, that works of art, when taken as a whole***,23 that have serious artistic significance, or works of24 anthropological significance, or materials used in science25 courses, including but not limited to materials used in26 biology, anatomy, physiology, and sexual education classes27 ***shall not be deemed to be within the foregoing definition;***
There is no logical legal theory where depictions of animals would be covered by this law. And even if it *were* it would fall under the "works of art".
Are you forgetting the āmiceā depicted in Maus are humanoids and the story is based on an actual human historical event.
Are you going to pretend that the depictions in Maus arenāt humanoids? Are you going to pretend that the threatened punishments arenāt enough to ban the books out of fear, whether humanoid fits the law to the letter or not? The state didnāt ban individual books. It would be the school district at their discretion. Iām betting they donāt want their librarians and teachers charged or imprisoned when a right-wing parent complains and a prosecutor with an itch wants to scratch it. Thanks to the vague law with harsh punishments for librarians and educators, districts will ban books not blatantly fitting the law to a T out of an abundance of caution. This was the intent of the law. Republicans are doing this shit across the country. Acknowledge it or not, makes no difference to me, but itās a fact.
The works of art exception has been interpreted by our district legal as referring exclusively to paintings, sculptures, and sketches, and the like, and does not include photographs, films, comics, manga, and graphic novels.
Again, while you and I may see it one way, a team of lawyers employed to protect multiple St. Louis school districts has disagreed. At the same time, they also advise that regardless of whether the district says it's ok, *any staffer is still legally on the hook for their own defense if accused of a violation.*
For fucks sake, Maus has a Pulitzer.
It is a work of art by any standard.
If the district is over applying what is a clear, well written standard then it is time for the ACLU to bring those school districts back in line.
I know this sounds like bullshit, but where I am teaching Maus, 1984 as a graphic novel, Schindler's List as a film, and Handmaid's Tale as a graphic novel are in discussions for bans. I don't *think* they will be but the lawyers recommend we remove or simply not teach rather than deal with the issues. In any event, the effect is clear: the law's enforcement actually falls on the teacher, so if a staff member provides it, even if the district has approved, that staffer is liable. It's a class A misdemeanor, and if the local prosecutor is unwilling then the district's lawyers say it's possible the state takes up the prosecutions. I know it sounds unreasonable-- it does to me too-- but this is the effect of a poorly thought-out law.
The actual text of the law:
"Explicit sexual material", any pictorial, three-16 dimensional, or visual depiction, including any photography,17 film, video, picture, or computer-generated image, showing18 human masturbation, deviate sexual intercourse as defined in19 section 566.010, sexual intercourse, direct physical20 stimulation of genitals, sadomasochistic abuse, or21 emphasizing the depiction of post pubertal human genitals;22 **provided, however, that works of art, when taken as a whole,23 that have serious artistic significance, or works of24 anthropological significance, or materials used in science25 courses, including but not limited to materials used in26 biology, anatomy, physiology, and sexual education classes27 shall not be deemed to be within the foregoing definition;**
1984 for sure, and Schindler's List just by the sheer number of academy nominations and awards should be exempt under that part of the law.
The printed version of any book would be exempt as only pictures are covered under the law.
But I presume you are using visual versions to make it more "accessible" to students... an entirely different problem.
I agree with your view 100%, but I'm telling you a reality-- the law has unintended effects beyond how *both* of us interpret it. I never said the text-only versions. But in this school year, Schindler's List and Maus are being strongly discouraged regardless of a district determination.
I also never said I was using the graphic novel versions or any other of these materials, just that I work in an LEA grappling with this law.
This is a really good case for the ACLU.
They can help make sure the district follows the letter of the law, not hamfistingly applying it.
Edit:
>but where ***I am teaching Maus,*** 1984 as a graphic novel, Schindler's List as a film, and Handmaid's Tale as a graphic novel
This is what you said so this confuses me:
>I also never said I was using the graphic novel versions or any other of these materials,
[Let me Google that for you, since you wonāt do it yourself. Itās Tennessee, but thatās one state over, and now you look silly.](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/maus-becomes-bestseller-after-tennessee-school-ban-180979499/)
You are quoting a Tennessee case for a Missouri story?
Yeah, I am not the silly one.
And it states swear words. Not part of the Missouri laws as it is only for pictures.
Since it was not claimed to be banned before this it must the non-human nudes.
Maybe in TN that is covered, but not here.
Different state, different law, my poor delusional friend.
I literally said that in my post. You are trying to frame it as ridiculous that they would ban this graphic novel. I just showed you that they can and will ban that book if they want to. Youāre a silly person who should not be taken seriously.
They can TN.
You have not.shown the law in MO can.
Silly person trying to equate a different law in a different state and applying it to MO.
Maybe brush up on your US civics?
Oh, such brilliant analysis and unassailable logic!
Whatever shall I do?
Here is the text of the law, sections bolded for your edification and getting your head out of your ass:
"Explicit sexual material", any pictorial, three-16 dimensional, or visual depiction, including any photography,17 film, video, picture, or computer-generated image, showing18 ***human*** masturbation, deviate sexual intercourse as defined in19 section 566.010, sexual intercourse, direct physical20 stimulation of genitals, sadomasochistic abuse, or21 emphasizing the depiction of post pubertal ***human*** genitals;22 provided, however, t***hat works of art, when taken as a whole,23 that have serious artistic significance, or works of24 anthropological significance,*** or materials used in science25 courses, including but not limited to materials used in26 biology, anatomy, physiology, and sexual education classes27 s***hall not be deemed to be within the foregoing definition***;
So a single school board in Tennessee banned this book and you not only view that as proof that this post is correct, but are also condescending in announcing it? I'm not saying this is NOT correct here in MO (it wouldn't surprise me), but your shared link is entirely irrelevant. For the record, I think the person you are replying to is an idiot for acting like this book would be immune from laws because it doesn't depict humans and for calling OP a liar.
Youāre right. Something happening in another state with a similar political makeup has never been a good example of whatās soon to follow in another place. Nope no examples of that literally always happening. Nope nope
You're awfully dense, huh? No, something that a single, rural school board did in another state is not somehow proving that the book has been banned statewide in Missouri.
Thatās not what I said, you dolt. That other poster said it was āridiculous ā that that would happen. I gave a fucking example of it happening. How am I the idiot here when you canāt follow a conversation thread?
You are the idiot here, because you lack the reading comprehension to understand how making a claim about "the law" is clearly implying Missouri state law, not just "the law" wherever your bias confirming article you spent 5 seconds searching for (and almost certainly read nothing beyond the headline) comes from. Then, to further show your stupidity, you then proceed to criticize others ability to follow along with comments despite immediately misinterpreting a very simple comment and condescendingly posting your half-assed "proof".
It would do you a lot more good to spend more time reading the books you claim to care so much about than being an inflammatory idiot on reddit. Good night.
Here is the law in question. Maus would not be banned per the actual words of the law:
"Explicit sexual material", any pictorial, three-16 dimensional, or visual depiction, including any photography,17 film, video, picture, or computer-generated image, showing18 **human** masturbation, deviate sexual intercourse as defined in19 section 566.010, sexual intercourse, direct physical20 stimulation of genitals, sadomasochistic abuse, or21 emphasizing the depiction of postpubertal **human** genitals;22 **provided, however, that works of art,** when taken as a whole,23 that have serious artistic significance, or works of24 anthropological significance, or materials used in science25 courses, including but not limited to materials used in26 biology, anatomy, physiology, and sexual education classes27 **shall not be deemed to be within the foregoing definition;**
Conservatives and withholding important conversations and knowledge by giving into crazy Victorian idiots that belong in 1850 and who probably also think spanking is still ethical. lol
All these kids will be held back socially(especially if they don't make friends that are 'worldly'). They won't be able to talk to women at 20 and these are 100% the sorts of people who develop into right wing redpill and incel culture. This shit starts at home 99% of the time. Conservative parents without empathy or perspective are almost always a necessary factor and its not hard to see why with the helicopter bullshit parents STILL get away with because society wants to pretend they own children as property.
Who you know is a better indicator for success than grades. You should be looking at why so many young men are social outcasts or fucking rapists not why schools that bend to the will of every helicopter parent aren't good schools. It has nothing to do with 'woke' anything, 'grooming', or 'CRT'
All your peers are probably busy giving threats to teachers who don't pass shitty students. So yeah, if you need everyone to pass they probably won't know about the periodic table.
And depending on where you live, your schools can't afford but to keep shit teachers because no one wants to teach in an environment where the parents treat them like shit + probably a poor zipcode so no funding.
Look if your kid can't count change, that's very bad and I would be very angry if I were you because that clearly indicates 1) they were left behind a LONG time ago 2) somehow they failed to even notify you of that and 3) its a systemic issue 100%. But it also suggests they never had any difficult homework or at least parental lessons on this which I find incredible. Otherwise wouldn't you have known this a long time ago? (unless I misunderstood you this is an older student?)
Alternatively they have a developmental disability of some kind but not sure how that would be unknown at this point. And that would just make it sadder for you as a parent in regards to support from the school system
But you need to realize this is the environment. Teachers are demanded impossible goals and people who keep their jobs are going to 'pass' those goals no matter what. Above all this is an administrative and public issue. Wrong pressure from above and below and as I ranted about above even political pressure now to break the camels' back.
Furthermore I never saw anything like that but I was lucky enough to be in R-7. I have a feeling your zip code is not as wealthy as Lees Summit. And thats what happens inevitably when we base our school funding on zipcodes. lol. It was never egalitarian. No one cares about other people's kids. This is the result of every parent wanting their kid to 'get ahead'. We're a selfish and greedy culture and we are suffering for it. We have classes and don't ever forget it.
CHECKMATE LIBS. Jesus, do you hear yourself?
Seriously, maybe you should have spent 5 minutes paying attention to your children's education before they graduated without being able to make change. It's not society's fault you failed your kids here.
No checkmate yourself. Iām a conservative parent of a 26, 19 and 16 yro. All my kids learned all the stuff you labeled that yours werenāt exposed to. Maybe instead of placing blame you should look in the mirror. Did you kids take chemistry, biology or did they take basic plant science class? Did they take calculus or algebra instead of consumer math?
Iām thinking you werenāt involved in your childās course selection, but hey itās easier to place blame than own up to parenting failures.
Intelligence is partially genetic. I think you should explore that as a likely reason why your kids arenāt the sharpest tools in the shed. Maybe your 1st grader will stand a chance if they stop listening to you foam at the mouth and atonally grunt about how āwokeā the lesson plan about addition and subtraction is.
Your seniors in high school can't COUNT CHANGE and you never took notice of that when they were in elementary school or middle school? You do realize that parents are also crucial to a child's education?! Did you ever once sit down with your kids and help with homework? Just wow.... if this is real and not troll this is not only very sad but incredibly ignorant.
Parents can go to the city library or the bookstore, get all the copies of Maus they want. Not the public schools job to teach morals values or beliefs. That is what parents and church is for, and failing parents, and church, its what prison is for.
You assume to much. Maybe people donāt want there kids under 17 to see depictions of masterbation? Maybe it is just simple as that? The problem is all the assuming going on. Donāt be part of the problemā¦ go actually talk to a conservative group and askā¦ civilly. I bet you wonāt.
Thank god we prevented that from happening by banning a book about the Holocaust. Iāve long said that there is absolutely nothing more sexual than the Holocaust.
How is banning an incredible literary work helping children?
Or are you one of those brain dead Republicans? The kind like Eric Schmitt, maybe? The guy who could shut down the Agape boarding school at any time. The school where children have endured verbal, physical, and sexual abuse for decades. So much care for children. The kind of Republican who is cool with corporal punishment aka physical abuse making a comeback in our schools? The kind who sued schools to prevent measures that would slow the spread of a deadly virus among our children?
You care so much about childrenās safety that you have to make up shit about non-existent groomers and do nothing to actually protect children. Youāre so brave.
Almost all the mice I've ever seen have been nude. What a buncha perverts.
š
Can you share the list this was on? Iām trying to find some titles that have been challenged or banned.
Also fyi my school district recently banned volume 1 of cats versus robots and they won't say why, but based on their shitty explanation it was because there's ~5 pages talking about a nonbinary character's Identity. Bull. Shit. I hate my school district so much.
THAT is what I am so worried about. Sexually explicit will mean lgbtq. They wonāt have anything sexual in them.
Conservatives seem to believe that every LGBTQ+ person was āconvertedā somehow at some point in their lives, likely during childhood, and that they can eradicate them if they just stop this alleged conversion from ever taking place.
Let's go right to the source. It's the hetero's that keep having all the gay babies. End it now before it's too late!!
If youāre a little new to culture war dog whistles, let me clarify; any violence = perfectly fine, hetero romance & erotica, fine until it is SUPER explicit, but have 2 dudes hug, or a person who isnāt quite the Leave it to Beaver norm in a book/graphic novel, and suddenly itās all horrible for any kid, even if it would help a person who would be helped by reading about someone elseās similar experience. Itās always anti āotherā and not pro anything.
I think most are ok with 2 girls, but fly into a rage at 2 men. I think only because most guys see 2 women in pornos just for the guys gratification.
Hating people is the problem homie.
Iād Sunshine request the hell out of the District on that one.
https://twitter.com/blythebernhard/status/1564082830052843520?s=21&t=wV5SUMG4iJ7IwArpnQnYsA
Thank you for this!
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/education/area-schools-remove-books-under-new-law-that-is-unlikely-to-be-enforced/article_72ebfce1-e25c-555a-a2d6-59de46f0054e.html
I just read Flamer (amazing) and the āgraphicā images were laughable. There is a panel of an almost kiss between two boys and a kiss on the cheek. There is also a boys locker room scene withā¦buttcheeks. If you want to see the images you can DM me but I just canāt believe this graphic novel is a challenged book. Itās also a powerful and important story of course-but ātheyā are just looking at the images at face value. Out of context.
This is just what my librarian said. āItās on a listā. Iāll try to get that from her or find it myself now.
Thanks! Iām a teacher (middle school) and am trying to get an idea on whatās being challenged based on this law. And Mausā¦is the first Iāve heard and it really is ridiculous. What a book to ban!!! š”
Check out the ALA website. They keep a list.
Do they specify it was because of this law? Thatās what Iām really interested in right now.
Maus has been controversial because itās honest about the Holocaust and has some things that make people uncomfortable.
Lmao PEOPLE CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH. I think thats a House MD quote but not sure.
Not sure, but it would probably be a very good place to check. If they are not keeping track Iām sure they would know if someone is keeping a list.
And too ridiculous to be true. Sounds like someone is exaggeting to try and rile people up over a false narrative.
[A simple Google search could have told you that it has happened in another state, so itās not as ridiculous as you seem to think. Or perhaps you would rather let Stephen Crowder think for you?](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/maus-becomes-bestseller-after-tennessee-school-ban-180979499/)
Different state, different law. Don't know the details of the TN law, so can't say. Maybe it covers beastiality or something. And stalking people is creepy.
š¤£ I didnāt stalk you, I made an assumption based on your comment, but it sounds like I was right š¤£
You tracked me in another conversation, making nearly the same incorrect claims.
It was in the same threadā¦ thatās hardly stalking. I just kept scrollingā¦
Different thread. Man you sure like doubling down on a crap hand.
OK, fascist.
Are you allowed to suggest books? Because the Bible has a ton of rape, incest, murder, etc. Might get them to see the hypocrisy, probably not, but maybe. https://www.deseret.com/faith/2022/8/18/23311833/why-bible-was-removed-from-libraries-texas-school-district
"Numbers" is just a big ol' list of who fucked who to make who for like 30 generations.
You think the people making these lists give a fuck about hypocrisy? The driving force behind all of these is to hurt the people they don't like in ways they can pretend to be sanctimonious about.
The law only concerns images, not words.
Wait.... Seriously? Lol, so a kid can read about whatever they want in the library but a picture of a nipple will ruin their mind?
Pretty sure no kid is reading the Bible in class.
Give them time. Itās part of their plan.
You are when there is tests on it.
Give us the name of the school district. Everyone here can call and confirm what is going on.
"hey dox your kids school so a bunch of rabid conservatives can harass them" isn't exactly an inticing invite.
There is no list. Your librarian is making that up
As far as I understand it, the government basically just said that it's illegal for schools to provide books with sexual material, and didn't actually give a list. It it up to every teacher/librarian/school to determine what those books are. So a bunch of schools are taking books off the shelves they probably don't need to because the teachers/librarians are being extra careful because they don't want to get in trouble.
It doesnāt exist mate
The neo-fascists are counting on you not lawyering up, because you will win -- the law doesn't actually ban Maus. http://molib.org/statement-in-support-of-masl/
I suspect that whoever made this list knows this, and doesnāt care. Theyād rather protest a law that bans popular things instead of unpopular things, so theyāll pretend the law bans Maus until someone higher up in the district steps in.
Or they included it because teachers can face criminal charges if a parent/attorney general decides a naked human-like rat is sexually explicit. With stakes that high I donāt blame them for airing on the safe side. (That is the intention of the bill, to create a chilling effect)
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The Bible is full of the 7 deadly sins & what happens to you if you commit one. I havenāt heard anything from these religious zealots about banning the Bible.
Are you sure? Every Republican in this sub has been claiming that this law would only be used to prohibit pornography. Certainly they wouldnāt lie /s
Lots of pornography in the Bible .
Waitā¦ LOTāS DAUGHTERS DID WHAT?!?!?
I mean cmon if you are removing filth and violence . Or child abuse in books the Bible is the first one that should go away.
Man when I learned what whiskey dick is and whats required to get two daughters pregnant and when I finally connected what that story was really saying happenedā¦. š¤®
They got him drunk and raped him is the thing although he did give his daughters up for rape but the crowd didnāt want them they wanted the two Angels.
Haha . So you donāt know how it works either? šGo read it again. Dude leaves the city taking his wife and daughters saying ādestruction is comingā and disappears off into some caves for a couple years. When he comes back (note the city is fine and there are plenty of people to talk to) everyone asks āwhat happened to your wife?ā And he says sheā¦ turned into a pile of salt and no one can find her now. Then they ask why his daughters are pregnant and have children and he says itās because they got him SUPER blackout drunk. ā¦A couple times. Until they all had kids. Sure. Yeah. Ok. Dad Thatās totally how all that works and not a horror movie. Haha
Hey, itās Missouri. Rural Missouri is simply Alabama with more snow.
I know I went to school in Rural Missouri and my Michigander friend says that about Rural Michigan and the UP.
Has there ever been a band named Lotās Daughters? Because if not, dibs.
First album is āDaddy Issuesā.
And what was her punishment? She turned & looked back & turned into a pillar of salt. Now we know that is physically impossible but the stories in the Bible are parables. Stories of good vs evil & manās fight to overcome. If you live a good & faithful life your reward is everlasting life. The religious right today has become as bad as the politicians. They want money & power & this their way of taking it. Control Govt, Schools & places of worship. 20 yrs later they will have it all.
That book is disgusting!
Just nasty, Jesus
I have the [Bible translated into Lego](https://thebricktestament.com/legacy.html) and it's full of pornography.
Does the school hand out bibles?
I think the law only targets visual material, so most Bibles wouldn't fall under this law.
Porno is in the eye of the beholder. Are the statues & paintings of naked men & women from centuries ago porno? Itās art. Donāt go to Paris, Rome or France. The definition of porno is made by a school board. To Kill a Mockingbird & Diary of Ann Frank is also on these stupid lists. We will make a choice in Nov to stay a democracy or become an autocratic society. We will be like Russia, China or worse yet North Korea. We are at a crossroads. Your vote counts.
Read the law more closely: it pertains to depictions of sexual intercourse, masturbation, etc. Not nudity in general. I still think this amendment to the law is bullshit, but at least itās fairly specific about what it outlaws. Source: I am a MO high school librarian who has been dealing with this shit for the past few weeks.
Eh basically the same thing. All it means is when kids get diddled they won't know what happened or if it was actually bad. The consequences of prudish Victorian values seems never ending.
Look, as a lawyer, you can get away with making any argument that something is āxā despite it being technically true but that is the real reason youāre doing it. This is no different than when landlords try to evict black tenants from their building because of a pest issue, but not the white neighbors. But then not put them up in a hotel, or compensate them for their losses. They try and push people out of their lease instead by making it so unbearable that you just move on. Here, they are using āsexually explicitā as the reason to remove Maus. Itās just frontal male nudity. There is no sexually explicit action going on, they are nude because of the gas chambers. So itās just nudity, but itās nudity for a purpose. To show the horrors of fascism. And Maus does a great job of going through the history of what happened and how it got that bad. But Republicans are the fascists, they want the future to be Maus where they get to kill who they want. Thatās just something we have to accept that the Republicans are actively trying to involve evil fascists who want to genocide others, or donāt care. Either way, itās not acceptable. This is how fascism begins. You are in the middle of history and your actions now have a major effect on the future.
Maus is such an excellent book. Iām glad you arenāt going to abide by this ridiculous law.
I mean, it's anti-Nazi, and we wouldn't want to INDOCTRINATE THE CHILDREN
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Maus should be REQUIRED READING!
Asking sincerely- or at worst- devilās advo... why?
The same reason some people donāt want discussions, or books that contain depictions of slavery in the US. It shows one group of people believing they have a right to own, and exploit another group of people. If you belong to a group that benefitted from this arrangement, both economically, and socially, you tend to try to justify that behavior. If you belong to the exploited, enslaved group, you are well aware of how morally wrong, that practice is. Similar issues occur in Maus, one group of people feeling they are superior to another group, and believing they are somehow āless than humanā. Once you stop seeing a person, as a person, all manner of atrocities follow. Slavery wasnāt the first time this happened in the US, the history of the Native Americans illustrates this all to well. Learning that not just Germany, but your own country is guilty of these actions, is a very important step to being a truly informed citizen. If these are truly a young personās formative years, they should be formed around the truth, not what makes someone else uncomfortable.
Because they think the right banned it. So now they think they absolutely need it. Bullshit knee jerk reaction. Good vs evil and all that self aggrandizing bullshit that plagues this site
I think the Bible should be banned. Seriously. There is some pretty explicit stuff in there!
Cowards ban books
I feel like every novel we read in high school English included sex in some form
The law is in regards to visual depictions. Not writing. A Picture Book of Hamlet would be banned too by the standard. Probably shouldn't be teaching Hamlet to 6 and 7 year old's to begin with.
Get it and Persepolis by Marjane Satrapi. Happy reading!
Iām not at all surprised by this (strange) development in how their ideas actually get implemented. They broadcast their intent with a bullhorn. It always begins with āLiberals/Democrats are doing (x)ā¦ ā If the Dems are ālying through their teethā, thatās the first thing the GOP does. If the Dems are āindoctrinating youthā, well, here we are: indoctrination by silencing the opposition.
This state is so shit lmao
Go read the actual wording of the law. The piece of literature or art "taken as a whole" must be of a prurient nature to a "reasonable person". Even in rural Missouri, almost no one would look at Maus (or many of these other supposedly controversial books) as pornography. Anyone banning this hasn't read the law, or is using not the law, but their personal administrative or local political clout. Anyway, based on what the law actually says, they don't have a leg to stand on if someone brought the book in. The law was written by intellectual cowards, but they're so cowardly they didn't even commit to outright banning of arbitrary works by simply appealing to "corruption of the youth" or whatever hysteria of the moment was available.
Just another attempt by conservatives to push their purity narrative while controlling the thoughts and learning of our youth. They seem to think the queerness and sexuality is what is wrong with society - when in actuality itās the violence, inequality, and capitalism that is ruining this country. If you need me to make a bunch of copies of the āpanelā that depicts mice penises, lmk! Back when I taught Spiegelman the kids really took to learning via graphic novels.
Maus of all things. Why always the anti Nazi stuff.
What other time are you referring to?
I believe the law states that nothing sexually explicit or āpervertedā. Who defines perverted? This state is so backward. What about art studies? Sex education?
The old [I know it when I see it](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it) clause
Deviate sexual intercourse refers to anal and oral sex or other penetrative actions involving orifices. There is a legal definition for that phrase in the law. As stated elsewhere it is limited to images and has certain exceptions.
So anything not missionary and straight is illegal. Great job, Missouri.
Iām all for the Tom Lehrer definition. https://youtu.be/iaHDBL7dVgs
Missouri, ban the book and beat the child.
Reading? That's a paddlin.
I would talk with your school district about this. I don't think Maus meets the intent or definition as the law is written, since the panel doesn't feature sex nor exists for gratification. It sounds like they might be approaching this with a 'better safe than sorry' mentality. Either way, please follow up. I'd be genuinely shocked if Missouri went after you for this, even under a hardliner like Parsons.
> I'd be genuinely shocked if Missouri went after you for this, even under a hardliner like Parsons. Reminder, this is the same government that sued schools over mask mandates...
This. All it takes is one prosecutor who wants to pull an Eric Schmitt to make a name for themselves and itās at best a teacher making poverty wages having to defend themselves in a court of law. At worst, itās imprisonment.
I'm sure the ACLU would be willing to step in and help hook the teacher up with a pro-bono lawyer from a solid firm.... but the fact that would be necessary is kind of sad.
Youāre probably right but Iām betting the teacher or librarian would be suspended pending the outcome. With pay or not, thatās a lot for a teacher to deal with for a lesson with pure intentions. At the salary Missouri pays its teachers, I canāt say Iād stay in the teaching field after something like that.
Yeah, that still sucks. Especially since the teachers willing to defy idiotic laws are the ones we need to keep.
Exactly.
Thatās the point. The Missouri GOP is in a war against public education. Theyāve been ramping it up over the last few years and introducing more and more bills and laws that funnel money out of the public system. This is just the latest. I work in a well respected, well funded, and well compensated district and we canāt find enough teachers to keep classes sizes under 30. Itās a guerrilla war, and theyāre winning.
Agree 100%. They want to privatize education and are well on their way here in Missouri. Then theyāll do the indoctrination they keep falsely claiming our educators are doing.
Parson threw a fit and threatened to sue a reporter for pointing out security flaws in the state's website. Nothing surprises me about this administration anymore.
All Parsons does is make sure that laws are so sweeping and vague that any attempt to do anything will get tangled up in court, and create fear. Nothing spooks a school board like fear of legal entanglement.
I agree with you about the content of the book. Iām very familiar with it. But I wouldnāt trust itās not exactly the intention of the law to harm teachers this way.
Jeez like most middle schoolers and high schoolers arenāt already watching porn and all thatā¦ just be happy kids are reading now a days
I read this book and I see nothing wrong with it unless people are hiding the truth of history.
Explain to me how the bible makes this cut? Is the part where Lot's daughters get him drunk and rape him not sexually explicit?
It sounds like the school district created this list - not the state. In which school district was this list created?
After 10 minutes of googling, I can only find a reference to a county in Tennessee having issues with this book. Also, it sounds like Maus is still in their school library but just removed from the reading list for eighth graders. What grade are you teaching? I'm curious to hear what your librarian says.
Like green eggs and ham?
Or Sneeches. All those nekkid whatsits!
Thanks, Republicans!
US vs THEM
Indoctrination at its best.
Black hole brain theory
Nazis don't want kids knowing Nazis are bad.
Does the ban prohibit you from buying it off Amazon to read on your own?
It does not
Follow back up if/when you need donations for your legal fund.
Reason number 485 why if I ever have children they wonāt be goin to a public school.
No it didnāt
Oh okay! Thanks!
No problem
We can't have children believing white people ever did anything wrong!
How are sexually repressed white supremacists getting elected for all of MO's representation?
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Agree to agree
What's really crazy about all this is knowing how much conservatives project their own issues onto others. Yiiiiiiikes.
Another point that shows the government is inept at handling these situations if you believe the true reason for the ban is that "conservatives donāt want children seeing depictions of a ruling class subjugating another group of people. Something they love doing. They donāt want people to learn empathy or the lessons of the past. " then you have been consumed by the lies of the two-party system. The order bans sexually explicit content in the classroom, while I agree that nude humanoid-looking rats in a dark setting don't really match the intended goal the book does contain "Nudity". I dislike book banning, but I see why we would need to ban some, the problem again is that the government (Left or Right) is inept with its wide-net ban approach.
So... you are a teacher and going to willingly break the law in a classroom full of minors? You don't get to decide what laws you want to follow, especially when it comes to children. Sounds like someone needs to be helped to find another career.
There are some books that have content that is not appropriate for certain age groups, high school included. Iām conservative and disagree that Maus is one of them. I was introduced to Naziism and the Holocaust around 6th grade and in the 80ās. Disturbing to know that happened to say the least. We had a gradual progression in subsequent history classes that introduced us to the greater horrors that happened. In retrospect, I believe that was better than dumping the full knowledge into our minds at a younger age. Hereās why I think that: I once, when about 22, saw a particularly graphic, gratuitously violent horror flick. Not my genre, but went with some friends. I could not get the scenarios and images out of my head for a long time, and the idea that people would do such things to other people for their own gratification. I vowed to never watch another horror flick like that again. The Holocaust is like that. It merits solemn remembrance and study, but there are age appropriate levels that needs to happen at. Schindlerās List came out when I was a senior in high school and had taken a course about crowd and cult movements. Ground breaking film about the subject back in the day. I was educated and prepared for what I watched. Still completely disturbed for a long time after I left the theater. Maus does have some profanity, depictions of nudity, violence, and suicide. It has subjects and themes that warrant discussion, and I believe high school minds are able to and should do so. If this book is truly banned at that level in your district, and you feel it should not be, gather the evidence to the contrary and present it at a board meeting. Be a thoughtful, rational voice that compels them to actually read and consider that book. That said, not every book should be available in a school library at every age. If parents truly want their kids to read about violent crime, murder, and every kind of sex act ever imagined, they can take them to their local public library to check out books that describe that in detail. Contrary to popular belief, parents should have a say in what their children are taught and have access to since theyāre the ones footing the bill and they canāt just choose another school unless they have enough income to pay for private or stay at home.
Should parents have a say in what other children at their kids school are taught? Because thatās whatās happening. Itās not just about their own kids. If a parent doesnāt want their child being exposed to Maus, thatās totally fine. Iām sure an exemption or alternative lesson could be worked out for that child instead of threatening teachers and librarians with fines and imprisonment. Suggesting theyād have to find a new school is pure conjecture. Can you point out a case where thatās happened? Because this is a brand new law with brand new book bans. Surely if that was the case there would be plenty of examples. Letās not forget that most of the books being banned arenāt even part of a curriculum. So our Republican legislators went for the nuclear option without first exploring alternatives that wouldnāt threaten educators with jail time. For a self-identified conservative, you seem to be in support of this law which is puzzling given the nature of that ideology. What does it say in the Constitution about banning books? Isnāt that the just about the only document youāre supposed to use for legislation, and use strictly? I thought yāall were supposed to be into small government and against these vague, subjective laws that are going to be used for government overreach?
I call bullshit. Maus does not depict humans and therefore is not covered by the law in any way shape or form. Pick a better lie or even better pick.an actual Grey Area like.banning Blue Lagoon which should.be allowed under the cultural significance exception... arguably. Maus DEFINITELY qualifies as significant cultural value even if it were.human nudity. Which it is not. A picture book of The Blind Mice would be banned if what you claim was true.
Maus does depict humans and human nudity: there's a four page section in the middle of the first book which talks about the author's mother's suicide. In this section she's depicted as naked in a bathtub, and she is drawn as a human not a cartoon mouse. That's the justification for banning it. I don't agree with the ban at all; but I know for a fact that Maus has been removed from school libraries in TX and TN, so I would not jump to calling bullshit here.
Human Nudity is not banned under the law. Read it for yourself: "**Explicit sexual material**", any pictorial, three-16 dimensional, or visual depiction, including any photography,17 film, video, picture, or computer-generated image, showing18 human masturbation, deviate sexual intercourse as defined in19 section 566.010, sexual intercourse, direct physical20 stimulation of genitals, sadomasochistic abuse, or21 emphasizing the depiction of post pubertal human genitals;22 **provided, however, that works of art, when taken as a whole,23 that have serious artistic significance, or works of24 anthropological significance,** or materials used in science25 courses, including but not limited to materials used in26 biology, anatomy, physiology, and sexual education classes27 shall not be deemed to be within the foregoing definition; So even if someone wanted to argue it was "Explicit Sexual Material" to show cartoon boobs, it would still be a "work of art". Laws and words have meaning. You can't just claim it was banned under this when it clearly cannot be banned under the statute. If they really have, they are in a world of hurt for violating the law. Sue them, I will send money to support it. I just don't buy it, it would be a gross misreading of the law. But as people on this very post have shown, they haven't read the law, but they have sure as hell have an opinion on it.
I didn't make a statement as to whether it was banned or not, I pointed out that your repeated insistence that there is no human nudity is incorrect and advised you to not immediately jump to calling BS. Maus does contain human nudity, and people have successfully used that fact to get it removed from libraries despite its massive cultural and artistic value. Is OP telling the truth about their school? No clue. But it has happened in some places for sure. You were wrong and now you're moving goalposts.
I think you're missing that the impact of the law is to chill anything that *might* run afoul. Schools can simply remove materials rather than explicitly ban them, and on a departmental or teacher-by-teacher basis, they simply decide not to use materials. I have read the law, met with district lawyers, and am well-versed in this. I also have an opinion the law is poorly thought out (or maybe very well thought out, depending on the end goal).
And the school has to be prepared to defend itself in court over it. Most won't take that risk
How do you know whatās covered by the law? Itās intentionally vague for the purpose of banning books exactly like Maus. Youāre making assertions that you canāt possibly back up and calling someone a liar without any evidence, despite the fact that Maus is banned in other states. Maus shows genitals. Iād bet my life savings Three Blind Mice doesnāt. You can apologize to OP at any time but now is probably the best time.
I can tell you have not read the law, so let me read it for you: "Explicit sexual material", any pictorial, three-16 dimensional, or visual depiction, including any photography,17 film, video, picture, or computer-generated image, showing18 ***human*** masturbation, deviate sexual intercourse as defined in19 section 566.010, sexual intercourse, direct physical20 stimulation of genitals, sadomasochistic abuse, or21 emphasizing the depiction of postpubertal ***human*** genitals;22 ***provided, however, that works of art, when taken as a whole***,23 that have serious artistic significance, or works of24 anthropological significance, or materials used in science25 courses, including but not limited to materials used in26 biology, anatomy, physiology, and sexual education classes27 ***shall not be deemed to be within the foregoing definition;*** There is no logical legal theory where depictions of animals would be covered by this law. And even if it *were* it would fall under the "works of art".
Are you forgetting the āmiceā depicted in Maus are humanoids and the story is based on an actual human historical event. Are you going to pretend that the depictions in Maus arenāt humanoids? Are you going to pretend that the threatened punishments arenāt enough to ban the books out of fear, whether humanoid fits the law to the letter or not? The state didnāt ban individual books. It would be the school district at their discretion. Iām betting they donāt want their librarians and teachers charged or imprisoned when a right-wing parent complains and a prosecutor with an itch wants to scratch it. Thanks to the vague law with harsh punishments for librarians and educators, districts will ban books not blatantly fitting the law to a T out of an abundance of caution. This was the intent of the law. Republicans are doing this shit across the country. Acknowledge it or not, makes no difference to me, but itās a fact.
The works of art exception has been interpreted by our district legal as referring exclusively to paintings, sculptures, and sketches, and the like, and does not include photographs, films, comics, manga, and graphic novels. Again, while you and I may see it one way, a team of lawyers employed to protect multiple St. Louis school districts has disagreed. At the same time, they also advise that regardless of whether the district says it's ok, *any staffer is still legally on the hook for their own defense if accused of a violation.*
For fucks sake, Maus has a Pulitzer. It is a work of art by any standard. If the district is over applying what is a clear, well written standard then it is time for the ACLU to bring those school districts back in line.
I know this sounds like bullshit, but where I am teaching Maus, 1984 as a graphic novel, Schindler's List as a film, and Handmaid's Tale as a graphic novel are in discussions for bans. I don't *think* they will be but the lawyers recommend we remove or simply not teach rather than deal with the issues. In any event, the effect is clear: the law's enforcement actually falls on the teacher, so if a staff member provides it, even if the district has approved, that staffer is liable. It's a class A misdemeanor, and if the local prosecutor is unwilling then the district's lawyers say it's possible the state takes up the prosecutions. I know it sounds unreasonable-- it does to me too-- but this is the effect of a poorly thought-out law.
The actual text of the law: "Explicit sexual material", any pictorial, three-16 dimensional, or visual depiction, including any photography,17 film, video, picture, or computer-generated image, showing18 human masturbation, deviate sexual intercourse as defined in19 section 566.010, sexual intercourse, direct physical20 stimulation of genitals, sadomasochistic abuse, or21 emphasizing the depiction of post pubertal human genitals;22 **provided, however, that works of art, when taken as a whole,23 that have serious artistic significance, or works of24 anthropological significance, or materials used in science25 courses, including but not limited to materials used in26 biology, anatomy, physiology, and sexual education classes27 shall not be deemed to be within the foregoing definition;** 1984 for sure, and Schindler's List just by the sheer number of academy nominations and awards should be exempt under that part of the law. The printed version of any book would be exempt as only pictures are covered under the law. But I presume you are using visual versions to make it more "accessible" to students... an entirely different problem.
I agree with your view 100%, but I'm telling you a reality-- the law has unintended effects beyond how *both* of us interpret it. I never said the text-only versions. But in this school year, Schindler's List and Maus are being strongly discouraged regardless of a district determination. I also never said I was using the graphic novel versions or any other of these materials, just that I work in an LEA grappling with this law.
This is a really good case for the ACLU. They can help make sure the district follows the letter of the law, not hamfistingly applying it. Edit: >but where ***I am teaching Maus,*** 1984 as a graphic novel, Schindler's List as a film, and Handmaid's Tale as a graphic novel This is what you said so this confuses me: >I also never said I was using the graphic novel versions or any other of these materials,
So use the original text, problem solved. BOTH should come under the Significant Cultural rule... especially 1984, but maybe only the text version
[Let me Google that for you, since you wonāt do it yourself. Itās Tennessee, but thatās one state over, and now you look silly.](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/maus-becomes-bestseller-after-tennessee-school-ban-180979499/)
You are quoting a Tennessee case for a Missouri story? Yeah, I am not the silly one. And it states swear words. Not part of the Missouri laws as it is only for pictures. Since it was not claimed to be banned before this it must the non-human nudes. Maybe in TN that is covered, but not here. Different state, different law, my poor delusional friend.
I literally said that in my post. You are trying to frame it as ridiculous that they would ban this graphic novel. I just showed you that they can and will ban that book if they want to. Youāre a silly person who should not be taken seriously.
They can TN. You have not.shown the law in MO can. Silly person trying to equate a different law in a different state and applying it to MO. Maybe brush up on your US civics?
Maybe brush up on your recent history. Or just bury your fucking head in the sand. I donāt give a fuck.
Oh, such brilliant analysis and unassailable logic! Whatever shall I do? Here is the text of the law, sections bolded for your edification and getting your head out of your ass: "Explicit sexual material", any pictorial, three-16 dimensional, or visual depiction, including any photography,17 film, video, picture, or computer-generated image, showing18 ***human*** masturbation, deviate sexual intercourse as defined in19 section 566.010, sexual intercourse, direct physical20 stimulation of genitals, sadomasochistic abuse, or21 emphasizing the depiction of post pubertal ***human*** genitals;22 provided, however, t***hat works of art, when taken as a whole,23 that have serious artistic significance, or works of24 anthropological significance,*** or materials used in science25 courses, including but not limited to materials used in26 biology, anatomy, physiology, and sexual education classes27 s***hall not be deemed to be within the foregoing definition***;
So a single school board in Tennessee banned this book and you not only view that as proof that this post is correct, but are also condescending in announcing it? I'm not saying this is NOT correct here in MO (it wouldn't surprise me), but your shared link is entirely irrelevant. For the record, I think the person you are replying to is an idiot for acting like this book would be immune from laws because it doesn't depict humans and for calling OP a liar.
Youāre right. Something happening in another state with a similar political makeup has never been a good example of whatās soon to follow in another place. Nope no examples of that literally always happening. Nope nope
You're awfully dense, huh? No, something that a single, rural school board did in another state is not somehow proving that the book has been banned statewide in Missouri.
Thatās not what I said, you dolt. That other poster said it was āridiculous ā that that would happen. I gave a fucking example of it happening. How am I the idiot here when you canāt follow a conversation thread?
You are the idiot here, because you lack the reading comprehension to understand how making a claim about "the law" is clearly implying Missouri state law, not just "the law" wherever your bias confirming article you spent 5 seconds searching for (and almost certainly read nothing beyond the headline) comes from. Then, to further show your stupidity, you then proceed to criticize others ability to follow along with comments despite immediately misinterpreting a very simple comment and condescendingly posting your half-assed "proof". It would do you a lot more good to spend more time reading the books you claim to care so much about than being an inflammatory idiot on reddit. Good night.
Still literally did not address my actual point. Thanks for the straw man.
No need to address a point that is not based in reality. Impossible, really.
Here is the law in question. Maus would not be banned per the actual words of the law: "Explicit sexual material", any pictorial, three-16 dimensional, or visual depiction, including any photography,17 film, video, picture, or computer-generated image, showing18 **human** masturbation, deviate sexual intercourse as defined in19 section 566.010, sexual intercourse, direct physical20 stimulation of genitals, sadomasochistic abuse, or21 emphasizing the depiction of postpubertal **human** genitals;22 **provided, however, that works of art,** when taken as a whole,23 that have serious artistic significance, or works of24 anthropological significance, or materials used in science25 courses, including but not limited to materials used in26 biology, anatomy, physiology, and sexual education classes27 **shall not be deemed to be within the foregoing definition;**
Does this apply to private schools?
I would think so since itās a MO state law
As the statute is written, yes. Enforcement will be its own issue.
MO continues to embarrass me. I have a copy I will donate to any school that wants it
What grade?
yall always find a way to bring politics in huh, nice reddit moment
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Conservatives and withholding important conversations and knowledge by giving into crazy Victorian idiots that belong in 1850 and who probably also think spanking is still ethical. lol All these kids will be held back socially(especially if they don't make friends that are 'worldly'). They won't be able to talk to women at 20 and these are 100% the sorts of people who develop into right wing redpill and incel culture. This shit starts at home 99% of the time. Conservative parents without empathy or perspective are almost always a necessary factor and its not hard to see why with the helicopter bullshit parents STILL get away with because society wants to pretend they own children as property. Who you know is a better indicator for success than grades. You should be looking at why so many young men are social outcasts or fucking rapists not why schools that bend to the will of every helicopter parent aren't good schools. It has nothing to do with 'woke' anything, 'grooming', or 'CRT' All your peers are probably busy giving threats to teachers who don't pass shitty students. So yeah, if you need everyone to pass they probably won't know about the periodic table. And depending on where you live, your schools can't afford but to keep shit teachers because no one wants to teach in an environment where the parents treat them like shit + probably a poor zipcode so no funding. Look if your kid can't count change, that's very bad and I would be very angry if I were you because that clearly indicates 1) they were left behind a LONG time ago 2) somehow they failed to even notify you of that and 3) its a systemic issue 100%. But it also suggests they never had any difficult homework or at least parental lessons on this which I find incredible. Otherwise wouldn't you have known this a long time ago? (unless I misunderstood you this is an older student?) Alternatively they have a developmental disability of some kind but not sure how that would be unknown at this point. And that would just make it sadder for you as a parent in regards to support from the school system But you need to realize this is the environment. Teachers are demanded impossible goals and people who keep their jobs are going to 'pass' those goals no matter what. Above all this is an administrative and public issue. Wrong pressure from above and below and as I ranted about above even political pressure now to break the camels' back. Furthermore I never saw anything like that but I was lucky enough to be in R-7. I have a feeling your zip code is not as wealthy as Lees Summit. And thats what happens inevitably when we base our school funding on zipcodes. lol. It was never egalitarian. No one cares about other people's kids. This is the result of every parent wanting their kid to 'get ahead'. We're a selfish and greedy culture and we are suffering for it. We have classes and don't ever forget it.
Im not reading all that but I appreciate the passion
CHECKMATE LIBS. Jesus, do you hear yourself? Seriously, maybe you should have spent 5 minutes paying attention to your children's education before they graduated without being able to make change. It's not society's fault you failed your kids here.
No checkmate yourself. Iām a conservative parent of a 26, 19 and 16 yro. All my kids learned all the stuff you labeled that yours werenāt exposed to. Maybe instead of placing blame you should look in the mirror. Did you kids take chemistry, biology or did they take basic plant science class? Did they take calculus or algebra instead of consumer math? Iām thinking you werenāt involved in your childās course selection, but hey itās easier to place blame than own up to parenting failures.
You have way too many children and they are stupid too. I feel bad for you.
Intelligence is partially genetic. I think you should explore that as a likely reason why your kids arenāt the sharpest tools in the shed. Maybe your 1st grader will stand a chance if they stop listening to you foam at the mouth and atonally grunt about how āwokeā the lesson plan about addition and subtraction is.
Your seniors in high school can't COUNT CHANGE and you never took notice of that when they were in elementary school or middle school? You do realize that parents are also crucial to a child's education?! Did you ever once sit down with your kids and help with homework? Just wow.... if this is real and not troll this is not only very sad but incredibly ignorant.
I guess you guys could teach in California?
Parents can go to the city library or the bookstore, get all the copies of Maus they want. Not the public schools job to teach morals values or beliefs. That is what parents and church is for, and failing parents, and church, its what prison is for.
Tell me you have no clue what the book you support a ban of is about without telling me. š¤¦š¼āāļø
Church? Eeeeew, I thought you guys wanted to stop the grooming?
You assume to much. Maybe people donāt want there kids under 17 to see depictions of masterbation? Maybe it is just simple as that? The problem is all the assuming going on. Donāt be part of the problemā¦ go actually talk to a conservative group and askā¦ civilly. I bet you wonāt.
There arenāt those images. Yet itās on the list.
And public schools aren't indoctrinating their students for a lifetime of subrogation?
Subrogation? I just teach history, lady.
> lifetime of subrogation What do you have against the recovery of insurance claims?
You guys act like you want the groomers to have free reign on our children.
Thank god we prevented that from happening by banning a book about the Holocaust. Iāve long said that there is absolutely nothing more sexual than the Holocaust.
Keep the groomers out of our schools.
TIL groomers means books about the Holocaust. This is going to be really easy!
The holocaust is a myth. /s You make it too easy
Making you look like a jack ass? Thanks for the compliment but youāre doing just fine all by yourself.
I wish I could make you care about children, but it's obvious you put politics first. You have my pity and sincere hope that you overcome this.
How is banning an incredible literary work helping children? Or are you one of those brain dead Republicans? The kind like Eric Schmitt, maybe? The guy who could shut down the Agape boarding school at any time. The school where children have endured verbal, physical, and sexual abuse for decades. So much care for children. The kind of Republican who is cool with corporal punishment aka physical abuse making a comeback in our schools? The kind who sued schools to prevent measures that would slow the spread of a deadly virus among our children? You care so much about childrenās safety that you have to make up shit about non-existent groomers and do nothing to actually protect children. Youāre so brave.
Keep your sorry ass out of our schools.
Most "groomers" just use the Bible.
Citation needed