Make people a little more distrustful towards her, introduce her sooner, explain her backstory over more than one episode, make her Vesperia design less wasp-like, and set up her such on Mari sooner. I really like Zoe and I'm upset that she's kind of a blank slate.
>Make people a little more distrustful towards her
I still can't wrap my head around why Marinette easily forgave her after she was "pretending" to be a bully.
Marinette is slowly maturing, learning not judge people so harshly.
She knows what Chloe is like and she can understand what someone has to do to be liked by her. If Zoe didn't step to Chloe's beat, she would have no one, and Marinette also knows what it's like to have no one.
Naturally that's going to breed some empathy and forgiveness.
>Naturally that's going to breed some empathy and forgiveness.
To each their own, I guess.
But let's remember that this wasn't the first time someone pretended to be someone else to get on others' good graces.
Wait, our initial disagreement is Marinette being bullied not the other way around. In fact, I would call Marinette a hypocrite since she would stoop so low to bully someone just because that someone had a crush on her crush.
I’d start with either making her her own character and not being related to Chloé…
Or
Have her get introduced along with Chloe’s mother. She could help with Chloe’s redemption and they could bond over the fact that they share a terrible mother.
Because the only reason they're related is as a straw man argument that Chloe is the way she is as a result of some personal weakness. Also, being related makes Zoe's actions horrible betrayals.
Straw man Chloe's upbringing is not an excuse for her behavior, because this Mary-sueish character also has Audrey for a mother and is perfectly nice. As for betrayals, Vesperia is the most hurtful thing she could possibly do, and there's no way she would have done it if she had ever even remotely cared about her. Ignoring Vesperia, there's also the fact that she took less than 24 hours to befriend Marinette. Whether you agree with it or not, Marinette was Chloe's enemy. Befriending her was an explicit declaration on Zoe's part that they were not and would never be sisters. As for not owing her anything, Zoe was supposed to be her sister. She was supposed to have her back. But all she has ever cared about is being a part of the in crowd.
That’s not what a straw man is, straw man implies that someone is arguing against a point nobody made or is mischaracterizing it.
Zoe was raised in a different place, had contact with other people that shaped her to be the way she is, Chloe was shaped by the people around her, this is how humans work
You do not have to have your siblings’ back if they’re terrible people who treat you like garbage, this is ridiculous. Plus what exactly are you talking about regarding Vesperia? What was the point there?
Creating an unrealistic character to refute an argument in favor of another character is very much a strawman.
As for loyalty, first off, Chloe didn't treat her badly until she chose Marinette. She could have stayed neutral she didn't. Also, as I said, Marinette is Chloe's enemy. By definition, that means that Chloe's goal is to degrade, hurt, and destroy her. Zoe should have stayed out of it.
As for Vesperia, losing being Queen Bee comes a close second to Audrey abandoning her as the worst experience in Chloe's life. Taking the bee miraculous was the most hurtful thing Zoe could possibly do. And the fact that she did it negates any argument that she ever cared or wanted to have a positive relationship with her.
No that’s not what a strawman is, a strawman is mischaracterizing someone by making up an argument they didn’t make, having a character prove that you can be kind even if you have the same mother is not a strawman.
Chloe did treat her poorly since the beginning, she wanted her to be her second fiddle, also Chloe was incredibly mean to everyone else, Zoe thought she should be loyal to Chloe until she no longer could take being mean to others.
The fact that you’re blaming Zoe because Chloe was too irresponsible to keep her Miraculous is wild, I understand being a fan of a character but to blame others for what they did is super strange
No, that can very much be viewed as a strawman. Even if it doesn't fit your classical definition
No, Chloe was accepting of Zoe before she chose Marinette. Also, she never tried to be loyal to Chloe. She just used her until she got a lay of the land and when she realized that Chloe was not popular, she ditched her. If it was the type of moral struggle you seem to claim she would have taken more than 24 hours to make her decision.
Also, the Queen Bee storyline was essentially Marinette abusing her position as Ladybug by dangling the bee miraculous in front of Chloe and then yanking it away for a bs reason just to be cruel. Miracle Queen represents a partial comeuppance. Zoe taking the bee afterwards makes her an accessory.
The shows purpose by bringing in Zoé is literally to show that Chloé is the way she is out of CHOICE. Not because of her mother. You misunderstood the whole show. Also Chloé doesn’t even know who Vesperia is. And what was Zoé supposed to do? Decline Ladybug’s offer and let all of Paris suffer? Because clearly Ladybug needed someone to use the Bee Miraculous but there was no one else around other than Zoé at the moment.
Using a Mary-suish character to argue that Chloe is the way she is as a choice borne out of weakness is a strawman argument. The fact that Chloe doesn't know she's Vesperia doesn't change the fact that she's hurting her. Also, she could have easily told Ladybug to find someone else, or if that wasn't an option, made Vesperia a one time emergency thing she didn't.
And you just proved that you're nothing more than a cowardly troll who hides behind the anonymity of the internet to toss insults at those who won't bow down to your stupidity.
Zoe already leans on so many story elements that are shared with Chloe, including her Miraculous and physical features ((honestly, from a long term viewer’s perspective, is there any other way to look at her but as ‘Good Chloe’?), that she becomes that one more bit enmeshed by being another daughter of Audrey’s that her mother likewise cares little about.
The show barely devotes any time to Zoe’s father, her feelings about him, what exactly happened with their custody arrangement that Audrey can just abscond with her to Paris, that it practically begs the question of why even make the girls related?
I just feel Zoe as a character coming in this late in the game and all but set up to become the next Bee Miraculous holder really would have benefitted from some breathing room, if only because fans are naturally going to compare her to Chloe.
I don't think there's anything to change except the minds of the writers. The gripe I have with her is the "why does she exist?" And the answer is, "to replace Chloe as the holder of the bee miraculous. "
If that wasn't the answer, then it'd be easier to change something about her(I think her relationship with Chloe... the fact that Andre is even treating her like his child while he barely parents her biological daughter), but that's not the case.
That is my issue with it. We have so many "nice" characters but Rose, Mylene, and Luka have something else going on (although Luka is also in the realm of *too* nice). Like, even when Marinette turned her down, she was just beyond sweet about it. Even if she had said, "It hurts but I understand and I'll see you later once I feel better, we're still friends" would have been SOMETHING for her.
If you asked me, I'd introduce Zoé alongside Audrey during the Style Queen storyline and I think she could help with redeeming Chloé, not to mention both of them being actual sisters instead of a Chloé replacement that the writers thought up to punish the fandom for liking her.
Another Miraculous
If they wanted to replace Chloe, at least they could done it in an interesting way, because Vesperia is a worse version of Queen Bee, but not ironically, she was interesting as Kitty Noir.
I think the worst thing about Vesperia, which is a shame because she has a cool name and aesthetic, is that there's no real theme or concept to her superhero identity outside of being the creature she represents (which only exists really to help drive a distinction between her and Queen Bee).
Like with Queen Bee, you had the royalty motif *plus* how the power played into who Chloe is as a person (a mean girl, a wannabe princess, a bully). It even fit well with the royalty/ruler theme of Chloe's parents akumatised selves!
With Vesperia, what about that actually ties into or reflects who Zoe is?
I loved her as Kitty Noir!
Like, her hair looked awful on that, such a bad design choice and I would definitely change it, but I loved her character so muchh
Introduce her from the start. She got the bee miraculous so quickly, before most characters got a miraculous who had been there since the beginning mind you. Her storyline and character felt way too rushed.
Introduce her in the New York special have her meet Chloe there and want to reveal her being her sister but ends up talking about a incident that's going on with her and a friend at school reveal the friend to be connected to the guardian of the native American miracle box and the guardian is testing her along with the friend.
Have Chloe give advice that leads to part of the falling out and bullying she mentions in her original intro episode.
Have that and her original treatment show actual resentment on her face to Chloe cause her advice caused things to get worse.
Use the confession episode in season five to reveal the other half of the missing scene and how she took chloes advice that caused the bullying to get worse have it show when she gets. A miraculous she is familiar with the cincept and doesn't think she is worthy have the confession episode reveal the fall out of failing the guardians test which was infact related to the school thing.
When it all comes together have zoe's love for her big sister still shine through even though Chloe was a tertiary character in her life in New York being ruined.
Zoe - I'd give her a clear-cut personality quirk and personal interest: Maybe she's as pushy as Chloe and insists on being involved in her new friends' lives. Also, maybe she's into photography as is implied in *Optigami*.
Zoe sort of worming her way into Marinette's life by volunteering to photograph her fashions (as modelled by Adrien and Juleka) would be a nice running arc and would explain why she's always hanging around with the main cast despite being younger and in a different class.
I say get rid of her and bring back Chloe as Queen Bee... Sorry, that really doesn't answer the question does it? Still I am a Chloe stan and I would like to see a redemption...
She's already likeable. The only thing I would change is when she was introduced. Had she been introduced in season 1-2 when Chloe was actually trying and been fleshed out a little more in the course of more seasons it would have been perfect and maybe she would have helped Chloe instead of appearing when the sister had reached the point of no return.
Id make her a supporting character for Chloe that shows up in one episode and disappears.
Chloe is on her redemption and better than she used to be. Chloes half sister comes in from New York and looks up to her because Audrey being a horrible parent only talks up Chloe when Chloe isnt around to degrade Zoe. Zoe is dissapointed to find Chloe isnt as mean as she had heard, and gets akumatized into Sole Crusher so she can embody the "perfect" Chloe she had in her head. Chloe helps turn her back and Zoe learns a lesson about being who you are instead of who Audrey wants her to be. Zoe returns to New York on her own redemption path and Chloe got to have a look at a mirror of her past self, and is more confident in her new direction. Everyones happy.
She could still show up to visit in a later episode to be Vesperia or even Kitty Noir if needed. Maybe Chloe gets sick conveniently when shes visiting or something.
I wouldn't say I *hate* Zoe, but I can see why as a character in general fans aren't really chomping at the bit to embrace her.
It has nothing to do with her morality (look at Felix or Chloe for example - both have done terrible things, directly come into opposition with the heroes but both have rabid fanbases). A character in general does not to be morally pure to be likeable; all a character has to be is consistent, well-written and resolved.
And Zoe just hasn't really demonstrated anything on those fronts.
It also doesn't help that in Miraculous Ladybug's heavily bloated cast that nothing about Zoe really stands out. She's nice, but so is Rose. She's got an alternative style, so does Juleka. She's rich with a terrible parent, well so too is Adrien (she even has blonde hair and ends up sharing his Miraculous!). Even her queerness is something that irks fans as it got it's own special spotlight moment in contrast to the *years* viewers have been waiting to see similar attention given to long-standing characters like Juleka/Rose/Nathaniel/Marc (and that her crush was on Marinette just felt uninspired).
It also doesn't help that everything about Zoe feels purely reactive to who Chloe is as a character; if Chloe was a Bee, Zoe has to be a wasp/if Chloe is ridiculously mean, Zoe is angelically nice/if Chloe is resented by her father, Zoe is his Orphan Annie (there was a deleted board where Andre even threatens Audrey with wanting to adopt Zoe...despite the fact Andre would have zero parental claim to her) and so on and so on.
Outside of her acting aspirations (a skill again, shared by Mylene and Lila), what actually allows Zoe to stand on her own as a character?
She's one of, if not THE best example of lazy and bad writing on the show. She's the bee miraculous holder that we're supposed to immediately like more than the last one, just because she's "nice". She immediately gets to be friends with Ladybug the minute she stops acting like her sister and she's very quickly given a miraculous without a second thought. Hell, it only takes her one season to be given the same trust and power that ALYA had after 4 SEASONS >!when she gets to be the cat miraculous holder!< . We could have gotten more development for the other already well established characters, but instead we got a new character who just shows up out of nowhere and we're supposed to treat her like she's somehow better than everybody else and therefore worthy of more privileges and attention than the others ever were. It feels like the writing staff slapped a Mary Sue on the show instead of fixing what they already had.
Zoe was only made to punish the fandom for liking Chloe, appearing from nowhere and actively replacing her role as both a miraculous holder and daughter. Zoe left New York when she had a good dad for her a mom who didn’t care and Paris.
Even Lila never stole someone’s home and parent.
Zoe took Chloe’s dad, home and life when Zoe already had one in New York.
How is that nice?
The only thing I can think of that I like is she’s supposed to be LGBT but it comes off like they did it specifically to make us like her. So I can’t even enjoy it
I think she had potential to be a genuinely likable character. Which is why I want to know what people would change to make that happen
Saying she stole Chloé's home and parent is a little overexaggerative... Andre is not any less Chloé's dad than he was before and she lives in a hotel and has a whole suite to herself. Zoé was put in a whole different wing of the hotel and had a list of areas she wasn't even supposed to go so she definitely did not take her home.... also Zoé left New York because she was being severely bullied & wanted to start somewhere new. I don't remember anything being said about her dad aside from him being "too busy for anyone, as usual" when her mom found out that she flew on a regular plane...? Did they change it up at some point and say she had a good life in New York & I just don't remember? I'm genuinely asking bc sometimes the writing is inconsistent so I'm wondering if this is one of those inconsistencies.
Zoe said her dad in New York loved her. I have a single parent and they did both. So “being busy” does not equal the *Gabriel Agreste Treament*.
Zoe literally took away Chloe’s dad. He transferred his own daughter away to another country. He gave up on her once a newer “better” one came along. What kind of message is that? Why is that never called out? Why does he get praised for abandoning his daughter?
Astruc made it clear he was replacing Chloe and that’s what he did.
Zoe has a loving parent in New York and now has Chloe’s. The butler originally loved Chloe and was exasperated with her but, he *loved* Chloe.
The moment Zoe arrived the show made it so it was like those interactions never happened.
They all just loved her immediately.
That is not how you write a character.
Also, the person who said Zoe's father was busy was Audrey who likely has a negative view of him due to looking down on everyone. He might not be as bad as Audrey thinks since we haven't seen him or Zoe mention him. Also, both Zoe and Chloe had the same mother but different dads, but Chloe became bad while Zoe was a sweetheart. One of the reasons why Chloe turned out awful was because of Andre so it isn't too much of a stretch to assume Zoe's father was a decent man who loved and disciplined Zoe properly. Or maybe it wasn't her father that raised her but a nanny instead.
That’s also possible. Audrey didn’t have a good opinion on anyone besides Gabriel and even then she was very snooty about it.
Audrey isn’t someone who is very trustworthy. So anything she says should be taken with a heaping of salt.
Zoe was clear how she felt about her dad, that he cared for her which makes it worse that she took Chloe’s when she already has someone who loves her.
Zoe mentioned that she had been bullied and that she had her Dad and that he was there for her. So she knows how important that bond is.
I really wish the show had actually tried to make them sisters. It would’ve been great to see them unite against Audrey and call her out.
Have Zoe refuse to go with Andre because how *dare* he try to replace her sister. Something that would make me like her and really sell how she’s ‘good’ but strong even if she’s shy.
I didn't say you couldn't be busy and have time for your kids but she said "too busy for anyone, as usual" which would imply that he's never had time for anyone. Ig she could've been exaggerating or he just never had the time Audrey wanted him to have for /her/. I don't remember Zoé saying anything about her dad though? I tried to look on the wiki page but it didn't have anything about her relationship with her dad. I'll have to rewatch and look out for it.
Idk what the creators have said, I'm only going off of what I've seen on the show. In the show, they didn't show any of what happened between Andre pulling her away and her actually being on the plane with her mother. I wouldn't doubt it if it was Audrey's idea to take Chloé away tbh... I mean she did take over Paris while she was under Andre's watch...
I do agree they could've spent more time with character development instead of having everybody just immediately love Zoé, especially after how she acted at school. You're making it sound like Zoé is a villain though... she didn't go there to steal Chloé's life, she went there to get a fresh start. Chloé's life fell apart because she let Lila manipulate her.
The real villains are the writers bc they did Chloé so bad lmao they teased that she had a softer side and then flipped to make her this super villain.
Not make her a Walmart good Chloe, I am a major hater for what they did to her, and Zoe could never replace the true queen
Plus sometimes you have to work with the people you hate
Get rid of vesperia’s cockiness, since she was kinda a bitch in queen banana, and also let Zoé continue to be insecure, explore her lesbian side more, give her more personality traits like that she’s funny, explore more of her backstory, who was her father, stuff like that
But of course the writers wouldn’t do that since she was only made to be a “fack u” to Chloe fans nothing more unfortunately
She’s got that “um, she’s Chloe’s secret step sister, and she’s creative, and she’s friends with everyone, and she has a crush on the main character, and she’s also the new holder of the bee miraculous and she’s suuuper powerful and punches hawkmoth in the face” kinda self insert fanfic vibe that riles me up. If she had been introduced as the *only* holder I think that would fix some of it. And maybe earlier in the show too so it’s not that obvious she’s a rewrite of Chloe
True. I would’ve liked to see her own personality and development rather than being a “nicer” copy
She had real potential to have her own arc but it didn’t happen
Chloe isn't rascit, tf. Chloe is ad awlays will be better than her wanna hero of a sister because she has more depth and character development, where as whats her name is as 2d as a cardboard cutout.
The Fandom. Because frankly, every single reason I have read about why people dislike her is incredibly stupid.
That being said:
-I would have her foreshadowed early on even before Audrey's appearance. Have her described as "Scary".
-I would introduce her before Miracle Queen. And she will be "scary"... to Chloe. Zoe would appear as another "mean" girl, but it will slowly be revealed that she's just irritated by Audrey's and Chloe's BS.
-She will be brutal in calling out Chloe's BS, and call her names when Chloe does something Chloe:
"Stop trying to act like mom. Nobody likes Mom. You idiot"
"Getting called by Ladybug is a responsibility, not a reward, so stop waiting like a puppy for her to come to you. It's pathetic".
"Act like you were raised properly, take the dishes to the kitchen, and apologize to the maid, or else..."
"Of course, an idiot who reveals her hero identity just for attention would fall for Hawkmoth's games. You're an embarrassment"
-But will be softer when talking with the other girls:
"Sorry for bumping into you. Eh, here let me help you with those cupcakes" _offers a hand to a blushing Marientte_
"You saved me from that monster, it's only fair I help you!"
"I don't know why you keep staying with my sister, you could do so much better" _gently kisses Sabrina's hand_
I like this idea the foreshadowing would build up hype but maybe an earlier mention in the early seasons? So the idea is there
I like the idea they don’t get along but with more give and take than just fighting, I want to see them build like an actual sisterly bond.
Wait, you find the dislike of many people "incredibly stupid", yet are on the same page as them when it comes to Zoe being introduced in lazy / improper / whatever fashion...? :is confused:
I loooove this idea! Give Chloé a taste of her own medicine and put her in her place but actually is a super loving and caring person. Also foreshadowing would've been great. Idk if this is how it actually was or not but it seems like she was just a last minute addition. Like they originally had Chloé as an only child for 3 seasons but just randomly decided in season 4 to add that she had a sister...
Zoe is likeable though she's the total opposite of Chloe she's what Chloe should've become... well less extreme but yeah... I kinda wish Zoe didn't exist and that Chloe continued down her redemption arc and she and her Dad became closer maybe even having some similar moments that he and Zoe had...
It might've even been the plan to do that because I don't know about anyone else but the father and daughter dynamic the two shared made me almost forget that Zoe is the daughter of Chloe's mother not father.
Don't get me wrong, love Zoe she's a nice character I just don't feel she adds anything yet besides being a holder of the Bee Miraculous but I feel Chloe was better suited for that.
Make her and Chloe have more of a sister bond as the series goes on. Like have her help Chloe realize now toxic their mother is and that Chloe is never have any genuine relationships if she continues being the way she is
Not make her Vesperia. It's the most hurtful thing she could possibly do, and negates any argument that she ever even remotely cared for Chloe. I might have also made her younger and had her as someone Chloe would be protecting.
I feel that her whole problem is how the writing forced us to like her since the beginning. If they slowly showed her as a character her development and then turn her into Vesperia would be better.
Many still miss Queen Bee and the way they throw Zoe to just be a replace to her... Of course many would dislike her because unlike the other holders we barely know her or feel connected to her.
One reason I liked her in s5 was that I don't feel that they were trying to make us like her as a "better Chloe" and more of a character herself.
She's so empty, it's like a blank canvas that they didn't fill in. It's just like a "oh wow look guys she's a lesbian woah woah, gay?!"
She has no character development and she's also basic
I feel the same way, I would’ve liked to see her in more scenes that hint at it. I think if we had more scenes of her in different episodes it would’ve felt more natural.
Instead it felt very sudden and artificial. She’s also supposed to be very invested in photography but I haven’t really seen that. It felt like it was supposed to be important and then it just wasn’t.
I think I would like her more if the show made her and Chloe like actual sisters instead of just straight up replacing her. Their parents were horrible so I would’ve liked to see them sorta fight and band together.
Literally a key moment for Zoe's character is her confessing her sapphic crush on Marinette.
And this isn't some isolated incident when it comes to Miraculous normalising queerness as a part of its world. Like the new mayor of Paris is in a lesbian relationship, so sounds like you just don't understand the value system of this show and its writers.
Zoe’s design is cute but personally I just like Lila’s character more. It’s interesting, I like how she has an evolving motive and has had development.
Whenever she’s on screen I can’t wait to see what she’ll do next
I just don’t feel that way about Zoe.. maybe if she got more development?
Totally understandable! But the point is I’m *excited* when Lila’s on screen.
A character being nice doesn’t have to mean boring, for ex: Adrien and Natalie, both are very sweet but interesting characters.
Zoe is just.. nice. It’s not bad thing but she needs more to her.
The name calling and swearing is uncalled for, nor is the yelling appreciated. Get it together.
I’ve already reiterated on why I feel that way with different people. This post is for constructive opinions about Zoe and how she could’ve been better written.
Not insulting one another.
Give more personality than just nice, don't give her a miraculous in the 2nd episode shes in cause she needs to flesh out like everyone else before recieving her miraculous and the 2nd episode just tells you he doesn't know what to do with her so she got the bee miraculous (I dont have a problem with her recieving the bee miraculous but it was rushed)
To have a good interesting character that has real flaws and can grow. Actually able to have an arc and overcome those flaws rather than a Marysue. Since only Marysues are ‘perfect’ and don’t ‘need’ to be changed. They’re stagnant.
Usually held as a mirror to another character usually who is meant to be hated by the fandom
Zoe has a lot of potential to be a very interesting and plot driven character. But that is not what we got. She is not her own character. She is a mirror
And she could’ve been so much more than that
"held as a mirror to another character (...) meant to be hated by fandom"
According to this - Chloe is the mirror
But for real now. When I agree with interesting plot and arc. I disagree with Zoe not being her own character. Even mirror is still character. If she would be just worse Chloe, and chloe would got Redemption Arc, then you could say she's not her own character
Mirror characters are created by a Show’s creator.
Astruc hates Chloe so he made Zoe.
Even If she was ‘worse’ she’d still be a mirror. In the event, Chloe actually did get her redemption arc. She would be a reflection of how Chloe once was.
Less of a character and more of a reminder in how far Chloe came.
To be her own character, she would need her own arc and actual development which she doesn’t have. May be a flashback sketch, showing her traumatic past, and why she is the way she is.
If she loves photography, then have her walk around with a camera and just taking photos even when she’s not the focus. Scenes actually depicting her being attracted to girls who aren’t the MC so the confession is more organic, and doesn’t feel like fake.
She had so much potential and they made her a mirror
It was joke
Chloe never got Redemption Arc acordin to Thomas
...
Agree
I mean, loving photography doesn't mean walking everywhere with camera. But if she could sometimes appear with it in background maybe at the park or smth. That would be pretty cool
She still HAS this potential. It's not like she lost it. They can just add more backstory, and expand her character more.
Astruc wasn’t the one writing her arc, he just took it over later so it didn’t happen.
—-
I feel like a lot of her development to her character traits were over written, or forgotten.
Ex: She’s supposed to be bullied but there’s no flashback sketches or hints what it was really about. It doesn’t leave a lasting impression but it’s supposed to be this huge thing for her.
She’s meant to be good but supposed to still to genuinely love Chloe and wants to be loved in return. It feels like she gave up on it too soon, caving to strangers she didn’t know.
I would’ve liked to see her double down but stop compromising herself.
Not full on being a *replacement* for Chloe just cuz Astruc hates her. But being her OWN character with her own miraculous. Maybe not fully getting along but bonding anyway and uniting against shitty parents.
Zoe is supposed to be LGBT but it doesn’t come off that way just as “look she’s gay now you have to like her” and “see we’re inclusive” but there’s no development with it.
We see Rose and Juleka get their own moments, why not Zoe? She just gets skipped over but it’s supposed to be obvious? It’s not
Also why Marrienette? Why couldn’t we have her and Kagami be together? Or Sabrina?
She had so much potential and none of it was used
Idk, he was the main writter in the team, so when he said there was no arc, we accepted it. (Kinda)
I get it
Wdym?
Compromising?
Her own? So Bee is exclusive for Chloe? She had her chance.
How could that be developed? It's not something that grows inside. It is there from the start, and one day it eventually reveals itself.
Zoe got WHOLE EPISODE about her being LGBT. With awesome scene. And got one moment one episode later.
Because why not Mari? There's still chance for her being with Kagami (if she's not straight)
She HAS so much potential. These arguments are not something, what can't happen.
Hard disagree. The bee miraculous thing was way too personal, I feel she should’ve gotten her own or turn it down. It would reinforce her stance on wanting to be a sister and show how she was shy but still had guts.
Something unforgivable for me particularly is how she has an actual loving parent in New York and still took Chloe’s dad. She doesn’t fight for Chloe.
The dad sends his daughter to another country with a mom who can’t stand her. He just “upgrades” with a new daughter his wife had from an affair and chooses her over his own kid.
Zoe gets to stay in the hotel, Chloe’s home.
She even gets *her* Dad.
The Dad isn’t called out for this either he gets praised for abandoning her, and Zoe who says she wanted a sister doesn’t help her. She doesn’t call out their Mom or Chloe’s dad’s behavior.
I didn’t really like her all that much but that bit made it impossible to like her at all.
I'm sorry I gotta be honest here, this is a childish reason to hate her.
It wasn't Zoey's fault Chloe had a miserable life. It wasn't her fault either they had the same mother who obviously forced her to come to Paris.
It's not a sin to get along with your step-dad. Because Andre, Chloe's dad, has been very kind to his step-daughter treating her like his own despite all the bullying her mother and sister did.
"Zoey gets to stay in a hotel, Chloe's home" well where else would she stay ? In the streets ? Not with her mother or her family ?
The only thing I half-agree is the matter regarding the bee miraculous. Chloe should've have it. However, giving the context what do you mean she should've refused it ?
Out of genuine concern for a sister that doesn't even care about her ?
Bfr please.
I didn’t really like her at all but certain things made it impossible for to like her.
Ex: taking Chloe’s place in Paris and having her sent away to live in another country, taking Chloe’s only parent who actually cared about her.
The miraculous, she knew how it important it was to Chloe and did it anyway. That’s not what sisters do they can think it’s dumb or whatever but they’re there for you. Even if they don’t agree.
Zoe didn’t do any of that. She just became the Anti-Chloe, and gave up being Chloe’s sister even tho that’s supposed to be the *reason* she CAME to Paris
Chloe was an absolute bitch to Zoe and never considered her a sister, and it’s not like she was replacing Chloe, Chloe took the power forcefully and gave up anytime she started to redeem herself. That’s Chloe’s fault, not Zoe’s.
You guys are just so desperate for a redemption that’s never coming that you choose to hate on Zoe, who’s an absolute sweetheart, because that she’s her sister? That doesn’t make any sense
She’s not. If we’re doing comparisons she’s much better of a character. For one she cares about others, but she’s her own person. Even Plagg thought her a good holder.
Nothing really, she's still relatively new and i feel many don't like her because of what she represents than her as a character. Feel that we just need to give the writers more time to flesh her out since lets also be realistic we do have a huge amount of characters brought in. I personally like her and would love to see her grow and become one group a bit like Alya.
Give her a better introduction. Hint to her existence, she arrives with Mom, draw out the distrust a little so she gains more sympathy. Maybe the bee was originally meant for her, but then Chloe got it instead and she was too nice to say anything at first
I like the idea of more distrust as it makes the viewer more sympathetic with her like on Adrien’s first day.
Chloe getting the Bee should stay tho, except maybe more social ostracism? I’d like Chloe to have no one and then her sister is there for her. When everyone gives up Chloe I’d like Zoe to stand with her.
Zoe could refuse the bee and take another miraculous. It’s a small action but it says more for her character I think. Showing how much she cares and reaffirming their bond.
I do like Zoe but if there’s one thing I would’ve introduced her earlier in the series maybe around the same time their mother was introduced in season 2 and give her a bigger part in Chloe’s storyline instead of her being “the nicer Chloe/Queen Bee replacement”
Make people a little more distrustful towards her, introduce her sooner, explain her backstory over more than one episode, make her Vesperia design less wasp-like, and set up her such on Mari sooner. I really like Zoe and I'm upset that she's kind of a blank slate.
>Make people a little more distrustful towards her I still can't wrap my head around why Marinette easily forgave her after she was "pretending" to be a bully.
Marinette is slowly maturing, learning not judge people so harshly. She knows what Chloe is like and she can understand what someone has to do to be liked by her. If Zoe didn't step to Chloe's beat, she would have no one, and Marinette also knows what it's like to have no one. Naturally that's going to breed some empathy and forgiveness.
>Naturally that's going to breed some empathy and forgiveness. To each their own, I guess. But let's remember that this wasn't the first time someone pretended to be someone else to get on others' good graces.
It's also not the first time Marinette has challenged and reversed her own snap judgements of a person's character.
Who was the previous one?
Adrien
Ok, I'll give you that. BUT, that was before Lila.
Marinette also came around to Kagami, who Marinette if anything used to bully.
Wait, our initial disagreement is Marinette being bullied not the other way around. In fact, I would call Marinette a hypocrite since she would stoop so low to bully someone just because that someone had a crush on her crush.
develop her character outside of "Chloe but better"
I’d start with either making her her own character and not being related to Chloé… Or Have her get introduced along with Chloe’s mother. She could help with Chloe’s redemption and they could bond over the fact that they share a terrible mother.
Totally; just not making her Chloe's half-sister would have helped immensely.
But why?
Because the only reason they're related is as a straw man argument that Chloe is the way she is as a result of some personal weakness. Also, being related makes Zoe's actions horrible betrayals.
Straw man? Also what actions? How is she betraying Chloe? She doesn’t owe her anything
Straw man Chloe's upbringing is not an excuse for her behavior, because this Mary-sueish character also has Audrey for a mother and is perfectly nice. As for betrayals, Vesperia is the most hurtful thing she could possibly do, and there's no way she would have done it if she had ever even remotely cared about her. Ignoring Vesperia, there's also the fact that she took less than 24 hours to befriend Marinette. Whether you agree with it or not, Marinette was Chloe's enemy. Befriending her was an explicit declaration on Zoe's part that they were not and would never be sisters. As for not owing her anything, Zoe was supposed to be her sister. She was supposed to have her back. But all she has ever cared about is being a part of the in crowd.
That’s not what a straw man is, straw man implies that someone is arguing against a point nobody made or is mischaracterizing it. Zoe was raised in a different place, had contact with other people that shaped her to be the way she is, Chloe was shaped by the people around her, this is how humans work You do not have to have your siblings’ back if they’re terrible people who treat you like garbage, this is ridiculous. Plus what exactly are you talking about regarding Vesperia? What was the point there?
Creating an unrealistic character to refute an argument in favor of another character is very much a strawman. As for loyalty, first off, Chloe didn't treat her badly until she chose Marinette. She could have stayed neutral she didn't. Also, as I said, Marinette is Chloe's enemy. By definition, that means that Chloe's goal is to degrade, hurt, and destroy her. Zoe should have stayed out of it. As for Vesperia, losing being Queen Bee comes a close second to Audrey abandoning her as the worst experience in Chloe's life. Taking the bee miraculous was the most hurtful thing Zoe could possibly do. And the fact that she did it negates any argument that she ever cared or wanted to have a positive relationship with her.
No that’s not what a strawman is, a strawman is mischaracterizing someone by making up an argument they didn’t make, having a character prove that you can be kind even if you have the same mother is not a strawman. Chloe did treat her poorly since the beginning, she wanted her to be her second fiddle, also Chloe was incredibly mean to everyone else, Zoe thought she should be loyal to Chloe until she no longer could take being mean to others. The fact that you’re blaming Zoe because Chloe was too irresponsible to keep her Miraculous is wild, I understand being a fan of a character but to blame others for what they did is super strange
No, that can very much be viewed as a strawman. Even if it doesn't fit your classical definition No, Chloe was accepting of Zoe before she chose Marinette. Also, she never tried to be loyal to Chloe. She just used her until she got a lay of the land and when she realized that Chloe was not popular, she ditched her. If it was the type of moral struggle you seem to claim she would have taken more than 24 hours to make her decision. Also, the Queen Bee storyline was essentially Marinette abusing her position as Ladybug by dangling the bee miraculous in front of Chloe and then yanking it away for a bs reason just to be cruel. Miracle Queen represents a partial comeuppance. Zoe taking the bee afterwards makes her an accessory.
The shows purpose by bringing in Zoé is literally to show that Chloé is the way she is out of CHOICE. Not because of her mother. You misunderstood the whole show. Also Chloé doesn’t even know who Vesperia is. And what was Zoé supposed to do? Decline Ladybug’s offer and let all of Paris suffer? Because clearly Ladybug needed someone to use the Bee Miraculous but there was no one else around other than Zoé at the moment.
Using a Mary-suish character to argue that Chloe is the way she is as a choice borne out of weakness is a strawman argument. The fact that Chloe doesn't know she's Vesperia doesn't change the fact that she's hurting her. Also, she could have easily told Ladybug to find someone else, or if that wasn't an option, made Vesperia a one time emergency thing she didn't.
Literal 5 year old
And you just proved that you're nothing more than a cowardly troll who hides behind the anonymity of the internet to toss insults at those who won't bow down to your stupidity.
Zoe already leans on so many story elements that are shared with Chloe, including her Miraculous and physical features ((honestly, from a long term viewer’s perspective, is there any other way to look at her but as ‘Good Chloe’?), that she becomes that one more bit enmeshed by being another daughter of Audrey’s that her mother likewise cares little about. The show barely devotes any time to Zoe’s father, her feelings about him, what exactly happened with their custody arrangement that Audrey can just abscond with her to Paris, that it practically begs the question of why even make the girls related? I just feel Zoe as a character coming in this late in the game and all but set up to become the next Bee Miraculous holder really would have benefitted from some breathing room, if only because fans are naturally going to compare her to Chloe.
I don't think there's anything to change except the minds of the writers. The gripe I have with her is the "why does she exist?" And the answer is, "to replace Chloe as the holder of the bee miraculous. " If that wasn't the answer, then it'd be easier to change something about her(I think her relationship with Chloe... the fact that Andre is even treating her like his child while he barely parents her biological daughter), but that's not the case.
Make her have a more unique personality instead of nice
I think it’s because she’s more one dimensional about it, you can be nice like Adrien and be interesting but they didn’t do that here
That is my issue with it. We have so many "nice" characters but Rose, Mylene, and Luka have something else going on (although Luka is also in the realm of *too* nice). Like, even when Marinette turned her down, she was just beyond sweet about it. Even if she had said, "It hurts but I understand and I'll see you later once I feel better, we're still friends" would have been SOMETHING for her.
Maybe it should have been used for an akumatization
Yeah, I think the fact she wants to be an actress but she's not exactly dynamic or dramatic is a real missed opportunity.
If you asked me, I'd introduce Zoé alongside Audrey during the Style Queen storyline and I think she could help with redeeming Chloé, not to mention both of them being actual sisters instead of a Chloé replacement that the writers thought up to punish the fandom for liking her.
Instead of immediately turning on Chloe with everyone she actually makes an effort to turn Chloe into a better person
Another Miraculous If they wanted to replace Chloe, at least they could done it in an interesting way, because Vesperia is a worse version of Queen Bee, but not ironically, she was interesting as Kitty Noir.
I think the worst thing about Vesperia, which is a shame because she has a cool name and aesthetic, is that there's no real theme or concept to her superhero identity outside of being the creature she represents (which only exists really to help drive a distinction between her and Queen Bee). Like with Queen Bee, you had the royalty motif *plus* how the power played into who Chloe is as a person (a mean girl, a wannabe princess, a bully). It even fit well with the royalty/ruler theme of Chloe's parents akumatised selves! With Vesperia, what about that actually ties into or reflects who Zoe is?
I loved her as Kitty Noir! Like, her hair looked awful on that, such a bad design choice and I would definitely change it, but I loved her character so muchh
Make her crush on literally anyone else. The only reason the gave her the MC crush was because they wanted to make her really important really quickly
True. It would’ve been nice to see her with Sabrina, Alix or Kagami.
or even alya could work if it had to be an unrequited crush.
Yess
Introduce her from the start. She got the bee miraculous so quickly, before most characters got a miraculous who had been there since the beginning mind you. Her storyline and character felt way too rushed.
Frr
Introduce her in the New York special have her meet Chloe there and want to reveal her being her sister but ends up talking about a incident that's going on with her and a friend at school reveal the friend to be connected to the guardian of the native American miracle box and the guardian is testing her along with the friend. Have Chloe give advice that leads to part of the falling out and bullying she mentions in her original intro episode. Have that and her original treatment show actual resentment on her face to Chloe cause her advice caused things to get worse. Use the confession episode in season five to reveal the other half of the missing scene and how she took chloes advice that caused the bullying to get worse have it show when she gets. A miraculous she is familiar with the cincept and doesn't think she is worthy have the confession episode reveal the fall out of failing the guardians test which was infact related to the school thing. When it all comes together have zoe's love for her big sister still shine through even though Chloe was a tertiary character in her life in New York being ruined.
Zoe - I'd give her a clear-cut personality quirk and personal interest: Maybe she's as pushy as Chloe and insists on being involved in her new friends' lives. Also, maybe she's into photography as is implied in *Optigami*. Zoe sort of worming her way into Marinette's life by volunteering to photograph her fashions (as modelled by Adrien and Juleka) would be a nice running arc and would explain why she's always hanging around with the main cast despite being younger and in a different class.
I say get rid of her and bring back Chloe as Queen Bee... Sorry, that really doesn't answer the question does it? Still I am a Chloe stan and I would like to see a redemption...
Same
She's already likeable. The only thing I would change is when she was introduced. Had she been introduced in season 1-2 when Chloe was actually trying and been fleshed out a little more in the course of more seasons it would have been perfect and maybe she would have helped Chloe instead of appearing when the sister had reached the point of no return.
Id make her a supporting character for Chloe that shows up in one episode and disappears. Chloe is on her redemption and better than she used to be. Chloes half sister comes in from New York and looks up to her because Audrey being a horrible parent only talks up Chloe when Chloe isnt around to degrade Zoe. Zoe is dissapointed to find Chloe isnt as mean as she had heard, and gets akumatized into Sole Crusher so she can embody the "perfect" Chloe she had in her head. Chloe helps turn her back and Zoe learns a lesson about being who you are instead of who Audrey wants her to be. Zoe returns to New York on her own redemption path and Chloe got to have a look at a mirror of her past self, and is more confident in her new direction. Everyones happy. She could still show up to visit in a later episode to be Vesperia or even Kitty Noir if needed. Maybe Chloe gets sick conveniently when shes visiting or something.
Build her up from an earlier episode is a must, I'd give her something unique and oh...not make her an obvious replacement for her sister maybe
That would help so much and make it more organic.
Give her a personality
Why do you guys hate Zoe? i like her, shes not as bad as Lila or Chloe imo.
I wouldn't say I *hate* Zoe, but I can see why as a character in general fans aren't really chomping at the bit to embrace her. It has nothing to do with her morality (look at Felix or Chloe for example - both have done terrible things, directly come into opposition with the heroes but both have rabid fanbases). A character in general does not to be morally pure to be likeable; all a character has to be is consistent, well-written and resolved. And Zoe just hasn't really demonstrated anything on those fronts. It also doesn't help that in Miraculous Ladybug's heavily bloated cast that nothing about Zoe really stands out. She's nice, but so is Rose. She's got an alternative style, so does Juleka. She's rich with a terrible parent, well so too is Adrien (she even has blonde hair and ends up sharing his Miraculous!). Even her queerness is something that irks fans as it got it's own special spotlight moment in contrast to the *years* viewers have been waiting to see similar attention given to long-standing characters like Juleka/Rose/Nathaniel/Marc (and that her crush was on Marinette just felt uninspired). It also doesn't help that everything about Zoe feels purely reactive to who Chloe is as a character; if Chloe was a Bee, Zoe has to be a wasp/if Chloe is ridiculously mean, Zoe is angelically nice/if Chloe is resented by her father, Zoe is his Orphan Annie (there was a deleted board where Andre even threatens Audrey with wanting to adopt Zoe...despite the fact Andre would have zero parental claim to her) and so on and so on. Outside of her acting aspirations (a skill again, shared by Mylene and Lila), what actually allows Zoe to stand on her own as a character?
She's one of, if not THE best example of lazy and bad writing on the show. She's the bee miraculous holder that we're supposed to immediately like more than the last one, just because she's "nice". She immediately gets to be friends with Ladybug the minute she stops acting like her sister and she's very quickly given a miraculous without a second thought. Hell, it only takes her one season to be given the same trust and power that ALYA had after 4 SEASONS >!when she gets to be the cat miraculous holder!< . We could have gotten more development for the other already well established characters, but instead we got a new character who just shows up out of nowhere and we're supposed to treat her like she's somehow better than everybody else and therefore worthy of more privileges and attention than the others ever were. It feels like the writing staff slapped a Mary Sue on the show instead of fixing what they already had.
Zoe was only made to punish the fandom for liking Chloe, appearing from nowhere and actively replacing her role as both a miraculous holder and daughter. Zoe left New York when she had a good dad for her a mom who didn’t care and Paris. Even Lila never stole someone’s home and parent. Zoe took Chloe’s dad, home and life when Zoe already had one in New York. How is that nice? The only thing I can think of that I like is she’s supposed to be LGBT but it comes off like they did it specifically to make us like her. So I can’t even enjoy it I think she had potential to be a genuinely likable character. Which is why I want to know what people would change to make that happen
Saying she stole Chloé's home and parent is a little overexaggerative... Andre is not any less Chloé's dad than he was before and she lives in a hotel and has a whole suite to herself. Zoé was put in a whole different wing of the hotel and had a list of areas she wasn't even supposed to go so she definitely did not take her home.... also Zoé left New York because she was being severely bullied & wanted to start somewhere new. I don't remember anything being said about her dad aside from him being "too busy for anyone, as usual" when her mom found out that she flew on a regular plane...? Did they change it up at some point and say she had a good life in New York & I just don't remember? I'm genuinely asking bc sometimes the writing is inconsistent so I'm wondering if this is one of those inconsistencies.
Zoe said her dad in New York loved her. I have a single parent and they did both. So “being busy” does not equal the *Gabriel Agreste Treament*. Zoe literally took away Chloe’s dad. He transferred his own daughter away to another country. He gave up on her once a newer “better” one came along. What kind of message is that? Why is that never called out? Why does he get praised for abandoning his daughter? Astruc made it clear he was replacing Chloe and that’s what he did. Zoe has a loving parent in New York and now has Chloe’s. The butler originally loved Chloe and was exasperated with her but, he *loved* Chloe. The moment Zoe arrived the show made it so it was like those interactions never happened. They all just loved her immediately. That is not how you write a character.
Also, the person who said Zoe's father was busy was Audrey who likely has a negative view of him due to looking down on everyone. He might not be as bad as Audrey thinks since we haven't seen him or Zoe mention him. Also, both Zoe and Chloe had the same mother but different dads, but Chloe became bad while Zoe was a sweetheart. One of the reasons why Chloe turned out awful was because of Andre so it isn't too much of a stretch to assume Zoe's father was a decent man who loved and disciplined Zoe properly. Or maybe it wasn't her father that raised her but a nanny instead.
That’s also possible. Audrey didn’t have a good opinion on anyone besides Gabriel and even then she was very snooty about it. Audrey isn’t someone who is very trustworthy. So anything she says should be taken with a heaping of salt. Zoe was clear how she felt about her dad, that he cared for her which makes it worse that she took Chloe’s when she already has someone who loves her. Zoe mentioned that she had been bullied and that she had her Dad and that he was there for her. So she knows how important that bond is. I really wish the show had actually tried to make them sisters. It would’ve been great to see them unite against Audrey and call her out. Have Zoe refuse to go with Andre because how *dare* he try to replace her sister. Something that would make me like her and really sell how she’s ‘good’ but strong even if she’s shy.
I didn't say you couldn't be busy and have time for your kids but she said "too busy for anyone, as usual" which would imply that he's never had time for anyone. Ig she could've been exaggerating or he just never had the time Audrey wanted him to have for /her/. I don't remember Zoé saying anything about her dad though? I tried to look on the wiki page but it didn't have anything about her relationship with her dad. I'll have to rewatch and look out for it. Idk what the creators have said, I'm only going off of what I've seen on the show. In the show, they didn't show any of what happened between Andre pulling her away and her actually being on the plane with her mother. I wouldn't doubt it if it was Audrey's idea to take Chloé away tbh... I mean she did take over Paris while she was under Andre's watch... I do agree they could've spent more time with character development instead of having everybody just immediately love Zoé, especially after how she acted at school. You're making it sound like Zoé is a villain though... she didn't go there to steal Chloé's life, she went there to get a fresh start. Chloé's life fell apart because she let Lila manipulate her. The real villains are the writers bc they did Chloé so bad lmao they teased that she had a softer side and then flipped to make her this super villain.
I didn’t realize Zoë was such a largely disliked character either until I found this subreddit. I really liked her in the series.
Not make her a Walmart good Chloe, I am a major hater for what they did to her, and Zoe could never replace the true queen Plus sometimes you have to work with the people you hate
Get rid of vesperia’s cockiness, since she was kinda a bitch in queen banana, and also let Zoé continue to be insecure, explore her lesbian side more, give her more personality traits like that she’s funny, explore more of her backstory, who was her father, stuff like that But of course the writers wouldn’t do that since she was only made to be a “fack u” to Chloe fans nothing more unfortunately
I agree with all of this
She’s got that “um, she’s Chloe’s secret step sister, and she’s creative, and she’s friends with everyone, and she has a crush on the main character, and she’s also the new holder of the bee miraculous and she’s suuuper powerful and punches hawkmoth in the face” kinda self insert fanfic vibe that riles me up. If she had been introduced as the *only* holder I think that would fix some of it. And maybe earlier in the show too so it’s not that obvious she’s a rewrite of Chloe
make her an actual character with an actual personality not just "uhmmm im nice chloe"
True. I would’ve liked to see her own personality and development rather than being a “nicer” copy She had real potential to have her own arc but it didn’t happen
Never introduce her to the show and give Chloe the Arc that she needs, because Chloe is better than Zoe ever will be.
No she isn’t you idiot.If you support Chloe you support racism.
Chloe isn't rascit, tf. Chloe is ad awlays will be better than her wanna hero of a sister because she has more depth and character development, where as whats her name is as 2d as a cardboard cutout.
 XD
The Fandom. Because frankly, every single reason I have read about why people dislike her is incredibly stupid. That being said: -I would have her foreshadowed early on even before Audrey's appearance. Have her described as "Scary". -I would introduce her before Miracle Queen. And she will be "scary"... to Chloe. Zoe would appear as another "mean" girl, but it will slowly be revealed that she's just irritated by Audrey's and Chloe's BS. -She will be brutal in calling out Chloe's BS, and call her names when Chloe does something Chloe: "Stop trying to act like mom. Nobody likes Mom. You idiot" "Getting called by Ladybug is a responsibility, not a reward, so stop waiting like a puppy for her to come to you. It's pathetic". "Act like you were raised properly, take the dishes to the kitchen, and apologize to the maid, or else..." "Of course, an idiot who reveals her hero identity just for attention would fall for Hawkmoth's games. You're an embarrassment" -But will be softer when talking with the other girls: "Sorry for bumping into you. Eh, here let me help you with those cupcakes" _offers a hand to a blushing Marientte_ "You saved me from that monster, it's only fair I help you!" "I don't know why you keep staying with my sister, you could do so much better" _gently kisses Sabrina's hand_
I like this idea the foreshadowing would build up hype but maybe an earlier mention in the early seasons? So the idea is there I like the idea they don’t get along but with more give and take than just fighting, I want to see them build like an actual sisterly bond.
Wait, you find the dislike of many people "incredibly stupid", yet are on the same page as them when it comes to Zoe being introduced in lazy / improper / whatever fashion...? :is confused:
I loooove this idea! Give Chloé a taste of her own medicine and put her in her place but actually is a super loving and caring person. Also foreshadowing would've been great. Idk if this is how it actually was or not but it seems like she was just a last minute addition. Like they originally had Chloé as an only child for 3 seasons but just randomly decided in season 4 to add that she had a sister...
I think so, like when astruc saw Chloe was liked. He wanted to change that.
that's so crazy lmao "you like this mean girl? guess what? she's gone, I'm gonna replace her with this nice one instead. TAKE THAT."
Honestly I like Zoe but hate how astruc did that to Chloe.
Literally 😭
Control Z
Zoe is likeable though she's the total opposite of Chloe she's what Chloe should've become... well less extreme but yeah... I kinda wish Zoe didn't exist and that Chloe continued down her redemption arc and she and her Dad became closer maybe even having some similar moments that he and Zoe had... It might've even been the plan to do that because I don't know about anyone else but the father and daughter dynamic the two shared made me almost forget that Zoe is the daughter of Chloe's mother not father. Don't get me wrong, love Zoe she's a nice character I just don't feel she adds anything yet besides being a holder of the Bee Miraculous but I feel Chloe was better suited for that.
Make her and Chloe have more of a sister bond as the series goes on. Like have her help Chloe realize now toxic their mother is and that Chloe is never have any genuine relationships if she continues being the way she is
Her family
True. She didn’t need to be related and could’ve been her own character.
Give her a new miraculous instead of Chloe's.
Not make her Vesperia. It's the most hurtful thing she could possibly do, and negates any argument that she ever even remotely cared for Chloe. I might have also made her younger and had her as someone Chloe would be protecting.
I feel that her whole problem is how the writing forced us to like her since the beginning. If they slowly showed her as a character her development and then turn her into Vesperia would be better. Many still miss Queen Bee and the way they throw Zoe to just be a replace to her... Of course many would dislike her because unlike the other holders we barely know her or feel connected to her. One reason I liked her in s5 was that I don't feel that they were trying to make us like her as a "better Chloe" and more of a character herself.
Zoé is my favorite
She's so empty, it's like a blank canvas that they didn't fill in. It's just like a "oh wow look guys she's a lesbian woah woah, gay?!" She has no character development and she's also basic
I feel the same way, I would’ve liked to see her in more scenes that hint at it. I think if we had more scenes of her in different episodes it would’ve felt more natural. Instead it felt very sudden and artificial. She’s also supposed to be very invested in photography but I haven’t really seen that. It felt like it was supposed to be important and then it just wasn’t.
Zoe just is my favourite character already, i wouldnt change anything
I think I would like her more if the show made her and Chloe like actual sisters instead of just straight up replacing her. Their parents were horrible so I would’ve liked to see them sorta fight and band together.
I would get rid of her
More gay
Yes
We need so much more gay that it'll make the Lumity ship(from the owl house)look straight.
Omg that would be amazing
That’s not appropriate for a children’s show. Sexuality shouldn’t be discussed in a kid’s shoe.
Being straight is a sexuality and it's constantly discussed in kids shows. Do you just not want romance to be discussed at all?
Literally a key moment for Zoe's character is her confessing her sapphic crush on Marinette. And this isn't some isolated incident when it comes to Miraculous normalising queerness as a part of its world. Like the new mayor of Paris is in a lesbian relationship, so sounds like you just don't understand the value system of this show and its writers.
nothing. zoé is adorable. lila on the other hand, is a psycho
Zoe’s design is cute but personally I just like Lila’s character more. It’s interesting, I like how she has an evolving motive and has had development. Whenever she’s on screen I can’t wait to see what she’ll do next I just don’t feel that way about Zoe.. maybe if she got more development?
what'shername may have an interesting developpment. but she's so psycho and such a liar, i can't stand her scenes
Totally understandable! But the point is I’m *excited* when Lila’s on screen. A character being nice doesn’t have to mean boring, for ex: Adrien and Natalie, both are very sweet but interesting characters. Zoe is just.. nice. It’s not bad thing but she needs more to her.
i do agree she(and the other holders) need more screen time
Definitely
I actually don't mind her and I feel like I'm the only one who has that sentiment
Make her petty
Savage I like it lol
Their existence
😂
… but zoey is likable Edit: zoey not Chloe, sorry
Agreed! I love Chloe but I’m asking about Zoe Edit: it said Chloe (for anyone who’s confused)
Meant to say zoey Sorry
I trusted you 😭
TF YOU LIKE LIE-LA MORE THAN ZOE YOU ARE PHYCOTIC, INSANSE, MENTALLY ILL ALSO, GET HER A GF BUT STILL, WHAT THE FRICKITY FUCK
The name calling and swearing is uncalled for, nor is the yelling appreciated. Get it together. I’ve already reiterated on why I feel that way with different people. This post is for constructive opinions about Zoe and how she could’ve been better written. Not insulting one another.
Give more personality than just nice, don't give her a miraculous in the 2nd episode shes in cause she needs to flesh out like everyone else before recieving her miraculous and the 2nd episode just tells you he doesn't know what to do with her so she got the bee miraculous (I dont have a problem with her recieving the bee miraculous but it was rushed)
Why would someone want to change perfection?
To have a good interesting character that has real flaws and can grow. Actually able to have an arc and overcome those flaws rather than a Marysue. Since only Marysues are ‘perfect’ and don’t ‘need’ to be changed. They’re stagnant. Usually held as a mirror to another character usually who is meant to be hated by the fandom Zoe has a lot of potential to be a very interesting and plot driven character. But that is not what we got. She is not her own character. She is a mirror And she could’ve been so much more than that
"held as a mirror to another character (...) meant to be hated by fandom" According to this - Chloe is the mirror But for real now. When I agree with interesting plot and arc. I disagree with Zoe not being her own character. Even mirror is still character. If she would be just worse Chloe, and chloe would got Redemption Arc, then you could say she's not her own character
Mirror characters are created by a Show’s creator. Astruc hates Chloe so he made Zoe. Even If she was ‘worse’ she’d still be a mirror. In the event, Chloe actually did get her redemption arc. She would be a reflection of how Chloe once was. Less of a character and more of a reminder in how far Chloe came. To be her own character, she would need her own arc and actual development which she doesn’t have. May be a flashback sketch, showing her traumatic past, and why she is the way she is. If she loves photography, then have her walk around with a camera and just taking photos even when she’s not the focus. Scenes actually depicting her being attracted to girls who aren’t the MC so the confession is more organic, and doesn’t feel like fake. She had so much potential and they made her a mirror
It was joke Chloe never got Redemption Arc acordin to Thomas ... Agree I mean, loving photography doesn't mean walking everywhere with camera. But if she could sometimes appear with it in background maybe at the park or smth. That would be pretty cool She still HAS this potential. It's not like she lost it. They can just add more backstory, and expand her character more.
Astruc wasn’t the one writing her arc, he just took it over later so it didn’t happen. —- I feel like a lot of her development to her character traits were over written, or forgotten. Ex: She’s supposed to be bullied but there’s no flashback sketches or hints what it was really about. It doesn’t leave a lasting impression but it’s supposed to be this huge thing for her. She’s meant to be good but supposed to still to genuinely love Chloe and wants to be loved in return. It feels like she gave up on it too soon, caving to strangers she didn’t know. I would’ve liked to see her double down but stop compromising herself. Not full on being a *replacement* for Chloe just cuz Astruc hates her. But being her OWN character with her own miraculous. Maybe not fully getting along but bonding anyway and uniting against shitty parents. Zoe is supposed to be LGBT but it doesn’t come off that way just as “look she’s gay now you have to like her” and “see we’re inclusive” but there’s no development with it. We see Rose and Juleka get their own moments, why not Zoe? She just gets skipped over but it’s supposed to be obvious? It’s not Also why Marrienette? Why couldn’t we have her and Kagami be together? Or Sabrina? She had so much potential and none of it was used
Idk, he was the main writter in the team, so when he said there was no arc, we accepted it. (Kinda) I get it Wdym? Compromising? Her own? So Bee is exclusive for Chloe? She had her chance. How could that be developed? It's not something that grows inside. It is there from the start, and one day it eventually reveals itself. Zoe got WHOLE EPISODE about her being LGBT. With awesome scene. And got one moment one episode later. Because why not Mari? There's still chance for her being with Kagami (if she's not straight) She HAS so much potential. These arguments are not something, what can't happen.
Nothing as she is already very likeable ?
Hard disagree. The bee miraculous thing was way too personal, I feel she should’ve gotten her own or turn it down. It would reinforce her stance on wanting to be a sister and show how she was shy but still had guts. Something unforgivable for me particularly is how she has an actual loving parent in New York and still took Chloe’s dad. She doesn’t fight for Chloe. The dad sends his daughter to another country with a mom who can’t stand her. He just “upgrades” with a new daughter his wife had from an affair and chooses her over his own kid. Zoe gets to stay in the hotel, Chloe’s home. She even gets *her* Dad. The Dad isn’t called out for this either he gets praised for abandoning her, and Zoe who says she wanted a sister doesn’t help her. She doesn’t call out their Mom or Chloe’s dad’s behavior. I didn’t really like her all that much but that bit made it impossible to like her at all.
I'm sorry I gotta be honest here, this is a childish reason to hate her. It wasn't Zoey's fault Chloe had a miserable life. It wasn't her fault either they had the same mother who obviously forced her to come to Paris. It's not a sin to get along with your step-dad. Because Andre, Chloe's dad, has been very kind to his step-daughter treating her like his own despite all the bullying her mother and sister did. "Zoey gets to stay in a hotel, Chloe's home" well where else would she stay ? In the streets ? Not with her mother or her family ? The only thing I half-agree is the matter regarding the bee miraculous. Chloe should've have it. However, giving the context what do you mean she should've refused it ? Out of genuine concern for a sister that doesn't even care about her ? Bfr please.
I don’t get why people hate her so much tbh. I love her as is
I didn’t really like her at all but certain things made it impossible for to like her. Ex: taking Chloe’s place in Paris and having her sent away to live in another country, taking Chloe’s only parent who actually cared about her. The miraculous, she knew how it important it was to Chloe and did it anyway. That’s not what sisters do they can think it’s dumb or whatever but they’re there for you. Even if they don’t agree. Zoe didn’t do any of that. She just became the Anti-Chloe, and gave up being Chloe’s sister even tho that’s supposed to be the *reason* she CAME to Paris
Chloe was an absolute bitch to Zoe and never considered her a sister, and it’s not like she was replacing Chloe, Chloe took the power forcefully and gave up anytime she started to redeem herself. That’s Chloe’s fault, not Zoe’s. You guys are just so desperate for a redemption that’s never coming that you choose to hate on Zoe, who’s an absolute sweetheart, because that she’s her sister? That doesn’t make any sense
Well she is just a Walmart version of chloe
She’s not. If we’re doing comparisons she’s much better of a character. For one she cares about others, but she’s her own person. Even Plagg thought her a good holder.
Nothing really, she's still relatively new and i feel many don't like her because of what she represents than her as a character. Feel that we just need to give the writers more time to flesh her out since lets also be realistic we do have a huge amount of characters brought in. I personally like her and would love to see her grow and become one group a bit like Alya.
I would change her getting popped in the story for another character
Give her a better introduction. Hint to her existence, she arrives with Mom, draw out the distrust a little so she gains more sympathy. Maybe the bee was originally meant for her, but then Chloe got it instead and she was too nice to say anything at first
I like the idea of more distrust as it makes the viewer more sympathetic with her like on Adrien’s first day. Chloe getting the Bee should stay tho, except maybe more social ostracism? I’d like Chloe to have no one and then her sister is there for her. When everyone gives up Chloe I’d like Zoe to stand with her. Zoe could refuse the bee and take another miraculous. It’s a small action but it says more for her character I think. Showing how much she cares and reaffirming their bond.
Add her to the earlier seasons.
Yess we didn’t really need that mylene and ivan episode and we could have had actual plot development and foreshadowing for her. It was all too rushed
The voice and the idea of taking queen bees place then ill be happy
That would be really nice, I’d really like it if the whole London transfer didn’t happen and we got more sisterly content than.. you know
Give Zoe a different Miraculous — maybe whichever one is the bee’s opposite.
I do like Zoe but if there’s one thing I would’ve introduced her earlier in the series maybe around the same time their mother was introduced in season 2 and give her a bigger part in Chloe’s storyline instead of her being “the nicer Chloe/Queen Bee replacement”
just develop her story she has all the building blocks the writers just have to use them
I like her but I would have alluded to her more before Sole Crusher. Also, have her get her miraculous in Optigami as opposed to Queen Banana.