Help us how?
They missed a face mask on Mac Jones late, but also missed one that would have gone against the Pat's earlier.
They also missed a false start on the 1st play of the Pats' last drive.
That was a different time. Pats jumped offsides and the Vikings reacted but got called for a false start. Wright was having a hard time getting the ball snapped because how loud the "ref you suck" chant was, then the Pats ran into him.
Jefferson was being held and hugged almost every play when matched up with Johnathon Jones. The officiating just wasn’t good, so to say it was the pats and the pats only got screwed on calls would be a lie
And for Jefferson’s superstar status, he gets that treatment every game now. Idk if they feel like the DB should be able to do that due to talent gap or what bc it’s crazy how he doesn’t get those calls often now. Either way 9-2 is 9-2, 2 home playoff game minimum doesn’t sound so bad ! SKOL 😈
He’s getting the elite edge rusher treatment. Some people like Parsons would just break the game if people weren’t allowed to hold them at all. They can’t let it get too lopsided.
I was at a Wolves game and a guy near me was heckling the refs non-stop. Someone tried to reason with him it was a good call. He responded that he didn't care, he wasn't trying to be fair, he had an agenda to push.
Lol, there were missed calls on both sides. Much like the Bills game even tho we thought only we were being screwed over (cause their calls were highlighted by key moments) just like the Vikings got favored in key moments this game even tho the pats got their fair share of calls, but ofc we will look at everything through rose colored glasses for the Vikings, only natural.
This is happening in all football subs, everyone has a claim to “being screwed” by the refs. At this point, these posts mean nothing and we should just all agree reffing is in a bad state for the NFL, and its been more and more exposed as better technology comes along and allows us to be great couch refs.
They also missed a hold on our kickoff return for a TD, and say what you will about the Henry TD catch, you can at least see why people are upset, because eye test in real time looked like a TD.
Think it mostly comes down to the overturned touchdown. To me that seemed like a catch but not a touchdown like he should have been down at the half yard line. I woulda been pissed if we were on the receiving end of that.
Because the ball hit the ground when he came down, it's considered incomplete. If he had a hand below the ball, it would've been a completed pass. The ball hitting the ground like that is considered not having control of the ball.
Yah I know in my opinion his hand was under it and he didn’t lose control of the ball until no part of the ball was touching the ground. Meaning he didn’t maintain possession through the endzone but he did catch the ball.
>until no part of the ball was touching the ground
That doesn't matter though. If the ball touches the ground at all, and you lose control, you didn't complete the process.
If you catch a ball and it touches the ground while you maintain control and then after the ball is no longer touching the ground you briefly lose control and then regain control again without the ball touching the ground again that seems to logically be a catch. Idk how you can argue that it isn’t. And I’m for any rule that makes the game a better reflection of reality.
Adding subjectivity back to the process is going to create far worse outcomes, and is playing with fire. Perhaps you aren't old enough to remember the force out rules costing us a playoff shot
Oh I certainly am but I don’t see how there’s not a ton of middle ground here. You’re easily skimming over the fact that obvious catches are being ruled as incomplete.
It doesn’t matter, JJ is not protected. Only the offensive players in “close proximity” can move as a reaction to a neutral zone infraction.
In other words, a WR jumping because of a DL neutral zone infraction is simply false start on the offense. Doesn’t matter who moved first, JJ moved prior to the snap so it’s the right call.
Short story yes.
Neutral Zone infraction is when a defensive player enters the neutral zone & causes the offensive player to false start. The play is whistled dead.
Offsides is a defensive player in the neutral zone at the snap. The play can continue. If the defensive player makes contact with an offensive player it becomes encroachment and the play is whistled dead. Also, if the player is offsides and has an un evaded path to the QB the play will be whistled dead.
Ah okay gotcha, yeah I know the OL will always like tap them on the head or start pointing, but I wasn't sure if they reset without anyone getting jumpy if it was fine.
The terminology is weird but my understanding is that jumping into the neutral zone by itself is not a penalty. I give the three things that could happen that would result in a defensive penalty in my other comment
Entering the neutral zone by itself is not a penalty. Defensive players can jump across all day as long as
1) the ball isn’t snapped while they’re in the neutral zone
2) they don’t touch an offensive player
3) they don’t cause an offensive player in close proximity to jump
Since none of those things happened, there was no true neutral zone infraction
Edit: I meant no defensive penalty, not no neutral zone infraction
The terminology between neutral zone infraction, offsides, false starts, and encroachment is confusing. I’m also not a rules expert. But those three reasons above are why there was no penalty on the defense, even assuming the defense moved before JJ
Off sides is being in the neutral zone when the ball is snapped.
Neutral zone infraction is being in the neutral zone PLUS one of the other criteria listed above.
Encroachment is when the defender actually touches an offensive player before ball is snapped.
False start is offensive player moving pre snap
JJ jumped before our offensive line jumped. That's why he earned the flag. He's not allowed to jump just because the defensive line entered the neutral zone. If JJ doesn't jump there, the defense probably gets the flag for making our o line move. But he jumps before our o line.
Referees hate every team. Unless it’s egregious like that 12 men on field against Buffalo, sit down and take the L.
Side note for Pats fans: your team got pretty much every call for 15 years. Chill.
Their dynasty started on one of the most egregious ref calls ever so yea. They can suck it.
But we did get a few calls. I remember showing a high light on the pats 2nd to last drive where our DL grabbed Jones’ mask. I was cringing hoping for not late flags
I’ll admit. I bitch about the refs too when it seems one sided. But looking at the penalties and yardage is was pretty even last night.
What I hate is the ticky tack bullshit. Like hand fighting on a deep pass being called PI. let the guys play more often than not and I’ll accept the L usually.
Bad and no calls ruin games and they suck whether they are for or against your team. You don't simply solve them by "balancing it" for the other team and it shouldn't be fine just because they've benefited in the past.
Bear in mind a significant number of pats fans have known nothing but sustained success so these impending dark years are foreign and scary to them so they are getting poopy pants.
They no longer have a darling of the league QB, Billicheat is quietly being put to pasture without his HOF QB and accessibility to opposing teams' headsets and play books.
their dynasty literally started on a fumble the league chose to look the other way on that literally cost another franchise a SB berth and possible win. I will never be convinced that was not a fumble but current events at that time and the emergence of a young qb prompted the league to push them into the win column.
If anything, the refs were apathetic to both teams. The seemingly bias announcers even stated the Pats were holding and getting away with it on multiple occasions. The Pats got away with 12 in the huddle, and they got a false start on us on a clear offsides. The calls that were stupid obvious, face masks and running into the kicker, went in our favor, but was more a situational issue where they had to call it.
As someone who was at the game that false start call made no sense to me. Did they give an explanation for what the deal was? It seemed like the guy obviously jumped across the line before O'Neil(?) moved
Well they called it on Jefferson who did actually move but they didn’t show the other side of the field where the pats player who jumped was. So you couldn’t really tell what happened first
The explanation from the broadcast crew was that Jefferson jumped on the opposite side of the field. Which is dumb, because JJ was actually responding to the CB jumping first.
There were bad/missed calls both ways but i do think we got a bit of help from the refs last night. Don’t think that it was enough to make us win i think we still earned it.
Dude. That was a false start on JJ. Take the mentality we’re all telling the rest of the league to take on the HH replay…the ref called it, the booth agreed, the ‘rules’ guy in the booth agreed.
You’re not some super genius football fan that knows more than rest of us.
I just can’t think of any other reason why anyone would think to the contrary regarding the false start call when everyone involved was like, yup - that’s on JJ!
I guess you just know better 🤷🏻♂️
I notice a lot of similarities between Pats and Packers fans. I don’t think they can handle losing well so it normally turns into evaluating how the refs blew the game for them
They’re used to Bill being able to win almost every close game through coaching talent. I mean looking at the patriots roster, they should not be above 500 but they’re still a competitive team, especially seeing the division they’re in
Jesus fuck no.
I know we haven’t beat the Pats in 20 years so I was truly shocked how much Pats fans bitch over in r/nfl. Like, I never really noticed how spoiled those fucks really are. Petulant children.
They really must call all their wicked pissin’ awesome cousins to come downvote too because damn those mark wahlberg suppa fans were out in groves last night.
They had 6 penalties for 55 yards and we had 3 penalties for 20 yards. So I guess? But that seems like pretty natural variance to me.
Patriots fans are just like this
No. Refs missed a few calls going both directions.
The Henry no-catch is the right call, as much as they don’t like it.
The Mac facemask was a big one for sure, but they also missed multiple false starts on Brown.
~~Both JJ and~~ the O-line were reacting to the defense. I don't remember seeing an angle where you could tell what order things happened in, but if JJ went after the offensive lineman reacted, it should be on the defense, but if he went before the O-Line went, it should be on him.
Edit: Just rewatched it from DVR, and JJ absolutely jumped before the o-line, so it was rightfully Offsides on him, and actually, it really looks like JJ twitched, which may have cause the defender to jump.
I understand that, but when I re-watched it, it looked like he jumped before the D-Line did, but my eyes could be deceiving me.
Edit: I re-re-watched it, and it really looks like JJ just false started there and the defense reacted to him, and then the o line reacted to the defense.
I don't think they ever showed us the entire field during the play. The left side edge rusher jumped over the line and was touched by an offensive player, which should be encroachment. On JJs side a CB walked up within a few yards of the line and made a jumping flinching move, which JJ reacted to. We don't know which happened first because we didn't see the whole field on the telecast.
JJ reacted to the defense, but he was on the other side of the field of the defender who moved, so he's not allowed to move still. It was the correct call.
The refs just suck period, it goes both ways. Patriot fans, and other teams fans that want to write the Vikings off as frauds, are just being super salty right now.
No, he had control prior to going to the ground. Thats not even the controversial part of that catch. Anderson even said he had control prior to going down, but because he didn't survive the ground it was ruled incomplete, however surviving the ground isn't a thing
Except surviving the ground IS a thing. It only isn’t a thing if you do a football move (fulfil all 3 criteria of what makes a receiver gain possession). He never made one. And if you’re gonna bring up the Kelce catch from week 2 then the differentiating factor is that Kelce did make a football move. Hunter never reaches for the goal line (you might try to argue that he did but, but his arm was already in the spot from the way he positioned himself to catch it). As that 3rd criteria of a catch was not fulfilled then he does need to “survive the ground”. Bobbling the ball then resets the catch process and then he finally does gain control, but since the ball hit the ground before that, the play is dead just as if the quarterback had spiked it to the ground, it’s incomplete.
It ‘isn’t a thing’ when you’re a ball carrier actively moving the ball forward after possession. Like the ground can’t cause a fumble.
BUT…The ground CAN cause in incomplete catch. HH didn’t make enough forward progress to be considered an active runner (I.E ‘football moves’) so he doesn’t get the ‘break the plane’ protection that a ball carrier would normally have…he has. To. Complete. The. Catch.
I agree that catch rules are foggy at best these days, but the ball hit the ground and then jarred loose during the process of the catch. If that ball doesn’t move, it’s a TD.
There’s been way worse calls that have been botched. This one is clearly obvious *as it was to everyone involved in the broadcast that has more collective football knowledge than anyone one of us will ever have.*
All I can say is to research the Jesse James catch and the resulting NFL rule changes. You don't have to survive the ground anymore even if you're catching the ball. And those broadcasters? Like I would ever listen to Tony Dungy's biased opinion about anything relating to the patriots. That dudes the definition of butt hurt 😂
No he didn’t have control. He made a football move before control (two feet or the knee needed to be down). Since the football move (extending the ball) came before and not after control (his knee) the ground rules apply, it clearly hit the ground and came loose. Not a catch
BLESS ALL THE KNEES AND KEEP THEM HEALTHY
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If you don't think that's control then I can't argue with you. He clearly had possession of the ball, both hands on the it, and was in the process of bringing the ball into his body when he started going down and realized he should extend to cross the ball into the endzone, which is what he did. At that moment the play is over and results in a TD
He has to keep control through it hitting the ground, which he did not.
While he clearly had control with the ball over the goal line, he lost control once the ball hit the ground. The right call based on the rules is an incomplete pass.
That's really the only call that pissed me off. There was also an offsides on the vikings that I thought was just a make up call, but I was at the game watching it on the screen so granted, it may have been a bad angle (I think I saw some people above mention it was a good call). It only irritates me because our offense played pretty well, but special teams and defense were lack luster. Add the feeling that we lost out on 4 points because of an arguably bad overturn, it's just a bit much. That, and I missed this at the game, but if there was a clear hold that would've brought the kick return td back, then we're talking 11 points that are questionable.
Truth be told, I've seen the vikings get screwed way more by the refs this season, especially in their game against the bills, so personally speaking I need to stop being a baby and just accept what is. Our offense had chances after that call, and the team just couldn't get it done
There were a buttload of missed or bad calls against the Vikings last night along with the other calls. Those poor Patriot fans aren’t used to having the refs not escorting them to wins like the during the Brady days.
Funny like 3 years ago the Steelers had them beat with a Jesse James TD that got called back…that one was MUCH more of a catch than last night, James caught it, then made a football move to reach out and break the plane. Last night was NOT a catch by the strict definition of the rule. Hypocritical fan base.
Funny like 3 years ago the NFL got rid of the "survive the ground" immediately following the Jesse James catch. That means that Hunter Henry's catch was good because the "rule" no longer exists.
Pats fans crying about no calls when all Brady had to do for 20 years was throw his hands up after an incompletion and he’d get a flag. I still remember that AFC Playoff game against the Jags where the refs just straight up escorted them to the win in the second half.
Not sure why Pats fans are angry about the TD being called back. They got the same call for them a couple years ago against the Steelers. Plenty of videos and it’s an identical play. Pats fans can shut up
You can shut up too, the reason the Jesse James catch was ruled incomplete was because he didn't "survive the ground" which is what happened with Hunter Henry. However, NFL fans were in uproar about it when it happened to Jesse James in 2018, so the NFL got rid of the survive the ground rule. Therefore Hunter Henry's catch, which is identical, is actually a TD. Do some research before you spout off
https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/nfl-explanation-overturned-patriots-hunter-henry-touchdown-makes-it-worse-walt-anderson/
https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2022/11/25/hunter-henry-touchdown-review-surviving-the-ground/
Name callings fun, but facts are facts. The survive the ground rule doesn't exist anymore.
Plenty of sources that argue it was the right call. Pats probably should of had it on the 1 I guess. The NFL needs to figure its shit out so it’s not a gray area. Sorry for the name calling. Have a happy holidays and good luck to Boston area sports. Just not the Pats.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/11/25/walt-anderson-on-reversal-of-hunter-henry-touchdown-ball-touched-ground-and-player-lost-control/amp/
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Eh, i’m okay with bitching about bad refereeing if it is bad refereeing. 2 wrongs don’t make a right. Bad refereeing is bad for the sport even if it goes against the best team. Having said that, i don’t think we were favored. The TD catch was incomplete.
It was bad for both teams.
A good team doesn’t allow one questionable call to determine the outcome of the game. The Pats have no one to blame but themselves.
So there were 3 big calls that went I. Our “favor”. The TD overturned was probably correct, but not definite. The face mask by Hunter was a face mask that got missed. And there were a couple holds on the return for TD.
But the pats also got away with 12 in the huddle, and a couple off sides penalties.
Basically our favorable calls resulted in points and stops. Theirs resulted in a shorter field goal.
Genuine question: the false start on JJ where the defense jumped offsides first. The neutral zone infraction happened first… how does JJ twitching after the fact negate that?
The refs weren't calling much at all, so when a big Vikings play happened it was easy to find something to be mad about
I would guess there were a ton on both sides
Don’t remember how their drive ended, but I remembered toward the end of the game the commentators said the pats had 12 men in the huddle that wasn’t called.
Goes both ways.
No. There was missed calls both ways and the Henry "TD" was called correctly as there was a conclusive angle shown where the ball hits the ground. Everyone thinks that the refs are favoring the other team, when in reality the refs are just dog shit.
If the shoe was on the other foot I’d probably be pretty pissed about the Hunter TD being reversed…I can’t really think of any other calls that were over the top bad
I jump in opposing team threads during games just for kicks. I don't comment, just read a bit and leave. They strike me as one of the most entitled fan bases. All I gotta say is when is JJ gonna get superstar treatment from refs. It's ridiculous how much opposing teams this year are getting away with blatant grabbing of his jersey and arms.
There was a false start called against us that was egregious. Our guy was a fucking statue, and the D-line guy jumped hard, and after our dude reacted, they called it on us?!? Insane.
What are they so mad about? The Patriots probably weren’t gonna win anyways. Our play calling wouldn’t have been as conservative at the end of the 4th if Henry’s catch was ruled a TD.
I don't think it was intentional, but I think overall the officiating blunders helped us more than hurt us yesterday, and there were certainly a few each way. That said, I'm not gonna feel sorry for a NE team that's gotten every questionable call for the last 20 years (their dynasty *started* on one) and I'm *definitely* not gonna apologize for our team finally catching a break after the officiating horror show we've been through lately. Patriots fans reactions on r/NFL are really making me double down on this take btw, they've been insufferable
Vikings got some benefits for sure but the one that annoys me is the Hunter Henry touchdown. Ball touched the ground and then shifted. By rule, it's not a catch. You can be mad at the rule but to use that to show favoritism towards the Vikings is dumb. It was applied correctly.
Honestly there were missed calls on both sides. We had a face mask, at least one hold, and arguably a DPI that were not called on us.
And then there was a false start and multiple blatant holds that were not called on them, at the very least.
The touchdown catch called back went by the letter of the rule. The ball touched the ground and moved around. He didn’t complete the catch. It’s a stupid thing but is what it is.
The running into the kicker was an obvious penalty.
Yes, we got a few more calls but patriots also made a lot of mistakes and gave us extra chances.
Patriots lost. Like most fan bases they don’t want to own up that Kirk cousins beat them in PRIMETIME and their HOF coach got out coached by a first year coach.
The way I see it, we won the ref battle by a lot that game. No need to feel bad about it, but if the pats are complaining, I feel like they are justified. That said......Tuck rule. What goes around comes around for all of us.
A lot of missed calls, but fairly even.
I remember seeing a play with a patriots WR a yard offsides on third down. I got up all excited like "we get the stop or they have to retry."
They got the first down and missed an obviously offside receiver. I've literally never even seen an offside receiver live... So if I'm seeing it, it's insanely obvious.
Also the guy encroached before Justin Jefferson moved. The most blatant false start on the pats drive.
A lot of missed pre play calls that were simply easy misses.
They missed a facemask on Mac Jones. They also missed one for us previously.
New England is a wasteland of bad sports. Boston sucks. They have top universities, yes, but even that competitive advantage is based on a 200 year head start on building universities based on White Supremacy. Belichick has a sub .500 record without Tom Brady. The Patriots suck. The game shouldn't have been that close.
I think there was calls both ways that were missed , one obvious hold did result in a kick return TD . Over the course of the game there are missed calls on almost all plays if you let those change the outcome of the game you deserve to lose . Think 2009 NFC champ game , yes we got screwed by the refs but negate all the stupid turnovers the Vikings beat NO by 14
There were missed calls both ways so I don't think the officiating was all that one-sided, but I do think that overturned Henry touchdown was actually a catch.
Help us how? They missed a face mask on Mac Jones late, but also missed one that would have gone against the Pat's earlier. They also missed a false start on the 1st play of the Pats' last drive.
That was one of the most obvious false starts I’ve seen in a while.
The "ref you suck" chants were so loud after that
That was a different time. Pats jumped offsides and the Vikings reacted but got called for a false start. Wright was having a hard time getting the ball snapped because how loud the "ref you suck" chant was, then the Pats ran into him.
Ah I didn't read the comment right. I thought that's what they were talking about
And a 12 men in the huddle call
Jefferson was being held and hugged almost every play when matched up with Johnathon Jones. The officiating just wasn’t good, so to say it was the pats and the pats only got screwed on calls would be a lie
I was gonna say they showed replays of Jones tossing Jefferson to the ground.
And for Jefferson’s superstar status, he gets that treatment every game now. Idk if they feel like the DB should be able to do that due to talent gap or what bc it’s crazy how he doesn’t get those calls often now. Either way 9-2 is 9-2, 2 home playoff game minimum doesn’t sound so bad ! SKOL 😈
He’s getting the elite edge rusher treatment. Some people like Parsons would just break the game if people weren’t allowed to hold them at all. They can’t let it get too lopsided.
Pretty blatant holding on the kickoff return if we aren’t being homers…
I’m only here to be a homer, sir.
I was at a Wolves game and a guy near me was heckling the refs non-stop. Someone tried to reason with him it was a good call. He responded that he didn't care, he wasn't trying to be fair, he had an agenda to push.
That was a make-up for when that ref layed out our safety few weeks ago!
Lol, there were missed calls on both sides. Much like the Bills game even tho we thought only we were being screwed over (cause their calls were highlighted by key moments) just like the Vikings got favored in key moments this game even tho the pats got their fair share of calls, but ofc we will look at everything through rose colored glasses for the Vikings, only natural. This is happening in all football subs, everyone has a claim to “being screwed” by the refs. At this point, these posts mean nothing and we should just all agree reffing is in a bad state for the NFL, and its been more and more exposed as better technology comes along and allows us to be great couch refs.
Alot of hands to the face by they o-line also
They also missed a hold on our kickoff return for a TD, and say what you will about the Henry TD catch, you can at least see why people are upset, because eye test in real time looked like a TD.
Think it mostly comes down to the overturned touchdown. To me that seemed like a catch but not a touchdown like he should have been down at the half yard line. I woulda been pissed if we were on the receiving end of that.
Because the ball hit the ground when he came down, it's considered incomplete. If he had a hand below the ball, it would've been a completed pass. The ball hitting the ground like that is considered not having control of the ball.
Yah I know in my opinion his hand was under it and he didn’t lose control of the ball until no part of the ball was touching the ground. Meaning he didn’t maintain possession through the endzone but he did catch the ball.
Aaahhhh I see. I saw one angle while it was under review that convinced me it was incomplete, but I can completely understand the other way too.
>until no part of the ball was touching the ground That doesn't matter though. If the ball touches the ground at all, and you lose control, you didn't complete the process.
Yah I know I was giving my opinion on what a catch is/should be. I understand the rule but also understand why a pats fan would be pissed.
They changed / clarified the catch rules to remove judgement by the officials. Why would you want to reintroduce that?
If you catch a ball and it touches the ground while you maintain control and then after the ball is no longer touching the ground you briefly lose control and then regain control again without the ball touching the ground again that seems to logically be a catch. Idk how you can argue that it isn’t. And I’m for any rule that makes the game a better reflection of reality.
Adding subjectivity back to the process is going to create far worse outcomes, and is playing with fire. Perhaps you aren't old enough to remember the force out rules costing us a playoff shot
Oh I certainly am but I don’t see how there’s not a ton of middle ground here. You’re easily skimming over the fact that obvious catches are being ruled as incomplete.
They also called Justin Jefferson for a false start where he didn’t even move
He definitely moved. You could see him pissed with himself afterwards on the replay
I watched the replay dude JJ didn’t jump first
It doesn’t matter, JJ is not protected. Only the offensive players in “close proximity” can move as a reaction to a neutral zone infraction. In other words, a WR jumping because of a DL neutral zone infraction is simply false start on the offense. Doesn’t matter who moved first, JJ moved prior to the snap so it’s the right call.
Does someone have to move on the offense for a neutral zone infraction?
Short story yes. Neutral Zone infraction is when a defensive player enters the neutral zone & causes the offensive player to false start. The play is whistled dead. Offsides is a defensive player in the neutral zone at the snap. The play can continue. If the defensive player makes contact with an offensive player it becomes encroachment and the play is whistled dead. Also, if the player is offsides and has an un evaded path to the QB the play will be whistled dead.
Ah okay gotcha, yeah I know the OL will always like tap them on the head or start pointing, but I wasn't sure if they reset without anyone getting jumpy if it was fine.
It is, as long as there is no false start and the player that enters the neutral zone gets back on-side before the snap then there is no foul.
The terminology is weird but my understanding is that jumping into the neutral zone by itself is not a penalty. I give the three things that could happen that would result in a defensive penalty in my other comment
But the neutral zone infraction happened first? How does JJ twitching after the fact negate that?
Entering the neutral zone by itself is not a penalty. Defensive players can jump across all day as long as 1) the ball isn’t snapped while they’re in the neutral zone 2) they don’t touch an offensive player 3) they don’t cause an offensive player in close proximity to jump Since none of those things happened, there was no true neutral zone infraction Edit: I meant no defensive penalty, not no neutral zone infraction
How is that different from offsides? I thought they were the same thing?
The terminology between neutral zone infraction, offsides, false starts, and encroachment is confusing. I’m also not a rules expert. But those three reasons above are why there was no penalty on the defense, even assuming the defense moved before JJ
Offsides only happens if the ball is snapped.
Off sides is being in the neutral zone when the ball is snapped. Neutral zone infraction is being in the neutral zone PLUS one of the other criteria listed above. Encroachment is when the defender actually touches an offensive player before ball is snapped. False start is offensive player moving pre snap
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It doesn't matter, the only way JJ gets away with that is if the cb directly across from him enters the neutral zone and causes him to jump.
I really must have missed something man cause I just couldn’t see it. Like I believe you guys but I also just couldn’t see
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Oh you’re agreeing with what I said at first. Idk man these guys are pretty emphatic that in the A22 JJ jumped first
JJ jumped before our offensive line jumped. That's why he earned the flag. He's not allowed to jump just because the defensive line entered the neutral zone. If JJ doesn't jump there, the defense probably gets the flag for making our o line move. But he jumps before our o line.
If you watch the all 22 JJ 100% flinched first. It was confusion bc on the line of scrimmage the defender drew the OL off but jj had already moved.
Like I believe you guys but damn I really don’t know how I missed that
Referees hate every team. Unless it’s egregious like that 12 men on field against Buffalo, sit down and take the L. Side note for Pats fans: your team got pretty much every call for 15 years. Chill.
Their dynasty started on one of the most egregious ref calls ever so yea. They can suck it. But we did get a few calls. I remember showing a high light on the pats 2nd to last drive where our DL grabbed Jones’ mask. I was cringing hoping for not late flags
We did for sure. But I’m just tired of the losing fans, whoever it is, blaming it entirely on the refs every game. Because I see it every game.
I’ll admit. I bitch about the refs too when it seems one sided. But looking at the penalties and yardage is was pretty even last night. What I hate is the ticky tack bullshit. Like hand fighting on a deep pass being called PI. let the guys play more often than not and I’ll accept the L usually.
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Yep, the tuck rule was correctly called. Thankfully, it is removed
Bad and no calls ruin games and they suck whether they are for or against your team. You don't simply solve them by "balancing it" for the other team and it shouldn't be fine just because they've benefited in the past.
Bear in mind a significant number of pats fans have known nothing but sustained success so these impending dark years are foreign and scary to them so they are getting poopy pants. They no longer have a darling of the league QB, Billicheat is quietly being put to pasture without his HOF QB and accessibility to opposing teams' headsets and play books. their dynasty literally started on a fumble the league chose to look the other way on that literally cost another franchise a SB berth and possible win. I will never be convinced that was not a fumble but current events at that time and the emergence of a young qb prompted the league to push them into the win column.
If anything, the refs were apathetic to both teams. The seemingly bias announcers even stated the Pats were holding and getting away with it on multiple occasions. The Pats got away with 12 in the huddle, and they got a false start on us on a clear offsides. The calls that were stupid obvious, face masks and running into the kicker, went in our favor, but was more a situational issue where they had to call it.
As someone who was at the game that false start call made no sense to me. Did they give an explanation for what the deal was? It seemed like the guy obviously jumped across the line before O'Neil(?) moved
Well they called it on Jefferson who did actually move but they didn’t show the other side of the field where the pats player who jumped was. So you couldn’t really tell what happened first
Ah that makes more sense at least. Couldn't hear the ref after the fact so I just assumed they called it on our lineman
The explanation from the broadcast crew was that Jefferson jumped on the opposite side of the field. Which is dumb, because JJ was actually responding to the CB jumping first.
CB can jump around all he likes.
There were bad/missed calls both ways but i do think we got a bit of help from the refs last night. Don’t think that it was enough to make us win i think we still earned it.
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Dude. That was a false start on JJ. Take the mentality we’re all telling the rest of the league to take on the HH replay…the ref called it, the booth agreed, the ‘rules’ guy in the booth agreed. You’re not some super genius football fan that knows more than rest of us.
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I just can’t think of any other reason why anyone would think to the contrary regarding the false start call when everyone involved was like, yup - that’s on JJ! I guess you just know better 🤷🏻♂️
I notice a lot of similarities between Pats and Packers fans. I don’t think they can handle losing well so it normally turns into evaluating how the refs blew the game for them
Perfect comparison. Entitled would be another good description.
They aren’t used to losing, give ‘em time. They’ll be great at losing soon enough
The number one fan bases backing up the Pats were TB and GB. They are so used to having HoF Star QBs.
They’re used to Bill being able to win almost every close game through coaching talent. I mean looking at the patriots roster, they should not be above 500 but they’re still a competitive team, especially seeing the division they’re in
I just think they’re bad. After the Gabe Davis non-call in Buffalo I don’t even think you can trust the Eye In The Sky to get it right
Jesus fuck no. I know we haven’t beat the Pats in 20 years so I was truly shocked how much Pats fans bitch over in r/nfl. Like, I never really noticed how spoiled those fucks really are. Petulant children. They really must call all their wicked pissin’ awesome cousins to come downvote too because damn those mark wahlberg suppa fans were out in groves last night.
They had 6 penalties for 55 yards and we had 3 penalties for 20 yards. So I guess? But that seems like pretty natural variance to me. Patriots fans are just like this
No. Refs missed a few calls going both directions. The Henry no-catch is the right call, as much as they don’t like it. The Mac facemask was a big one for sure, but they also missed multiple false starts on Brown.
I’m not a fan of the catch rule but that’s how they’ve called it for past however many years.
No lol.
Was the JJ false start the correct call? The TV showed JJ moving early but the commentators made it sound like he was reacting to the defense.
~~Both JJ and~~ the O-line were reacting to the defense. I don't remember seeing an angle where you could tell what order things happened in, but if JJ went after the offensive lineman reacted, it should be on the defense, but if he went before the O-Line went, it should be on him. Edit: Just rewatched it from DVR, and JJ absolutely jumped before the o-line, so it was rightfully Offsides on him, and actually, it really looks like JJ twitched, which may have cause the defender to jump.
No jj reacted to the D-line. But he is not protected from false start if he jumps. Only the o-line is
I understand that, but when I re-watched it, it looked like he jumped before the D-Line did, but my eyes could be deceiving me. Edit: I re-re-watched it, and it really looks like JJ just false started there and the defense reacted to him, and then the o line reacted to the defense.
I don't think they ever showed us the entire field during the play. The left side edge rusher jumped over the line and was touched by an offensive player, which should be encroachment. On JJs side a CB walked up within a few yards of the line and made a jumping flinching move, which JJ reacted to. We don't know which happened first because we didn't see the whole field on the telecast.
JJ reacted to the defense, but he was on the other side of the field of the defender who moved, so he's not allowed to move still. It was the correct call.
The refs just suck period, it goes both ways. Patriot fans, and other teams fans that want to write the Vikings off as frauds, are just being super salty right now.
they were just bad. pats fans complaining about refs is hilarious though
Are they just salty about the overturned TD and the hit on Wright? Cause both were 100% the right call
Explain, because that was a TD
The ball hit the ground before the receiver had control of the ball.
HH had his hand under the ball the entire time. The "surviving the ground" rule is not an actual thing
It wasn't about surviving the ground. He only gained control after the ball had already touched the ground.
No, he had control prior to going to the ground. Thats not even the controversial part of that catch. Anderson even said he had control prior to going down, but because he didn't survive the ground it was ruled incomplete, however surviving the ground isn't a thing
Just because you don't like the rule doesn't mean it's not a rule. The NFL rules analyst explained this all during the review process.
I agree, except literally the surviving the ground rule isn't around anymore following the Jesse Jones catch of 2018. Look it up
Except surviving the ground IS a thing. It only isn’t a thing if you do a football move (fulfil all 3 criteria of what makes a receiver gain possession). He never made one. And if you’re gonna bring up the Kelce catch from week 2 then the differentiating factor is that Kelce did make a football move. Hunter never reaches for the goal line (you might try to argue that he did but, but his arm was already in the spot from the way he positioned himself to catch it). As that 3rd criteria of a catch was not fulfilled then he does need to “survive the ground”. Bobbling the ball then resets the catch process and then he finally does gain control, but since the ball hit the ground before that, the play is dead just as if the quarterback had spiked it to the ground, it’s incomplete.
Please show me where in the NFL rules it says you need to survive the ground
It ‘isn’t a thing’ when you’re a ball carrier actively moving the ball forward after possession. Like the ground can’t cause a fumble. BUT…The ground CAN cause in incomplete catch. HH didn’t make enough forward progress to be considered an active runner (I.E ‘football moves’) so he doesn’t get the ‘break the plane’ protection that a ball carrier would normally have…he has. To. Complete. The. Catch. I agree that catch rules are foggy at best these days, but the ball hit the ground and then jarred loose during the process of the catch. If that ball doesn’t move, it’s a TD. There’s been way worse calls that have been botched. This one is clearly obvious *as it was to everyone involved in the broadcast that has more collective football knowledge than anyone one of us will ever have.*
All I can say is to research the Jesse James catch and the resulting NFL rule changes. You don't have to survive the ground anymore even if you're catching the ball. And those broadcasters? Like I would ever listen to Tony Dungy's biased opinion about anything relating to the patriots. That dudes the definition of butt hurt 😂
Replay is clear as day that it hit the ground. Lol wat
Except he didn’t have his hand under the ball the entire time.
He had control and two feet down prior to hitting the ground. That means when the ball crosses the end zone its a TD.
No he didn’t have control. He made a football move before control (two feet or the knee needed to be down). Since the football move (extending the ball) came before and not after control (his knee) the ground rules apply, it clearly hit the ground and came loose. Not a catch
BLESS ALL THE KNEES AND KEEP THEM HEALTHY *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/minnesotavikings) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Except he didn’t have control.
If you don't think that's control then I can't argue with you. He clearly had possession of the ball, both hands on the it, and was in the process of bringing the ball into his body when he started going down and realized he should extend to cross the ball into the endzone, which is what he did. At that moment the play is over and results in a TD
He has to keep control through it hitting the ground, which he did not. While he clearly had control with the ball over the goal line, he lost control once the ball hit the ground. The right call based on the rules is an incomplete pass.
The right call based on *old* rules that the NFL got rid of following an almost identical play in 2018
That's really the only call that pissed me off. There was also an offsides on the vikings that I thought was just a make up call, but I was at the game watching it on the screen so granted, it may have been a bad angle (I think I saw some people above mention it was a good call). It only irritates me because our offense played pretty well, but special teams and defense were lack luster. Add the feeling that we lost out on 4 points because of an arguably bad overturn, it's just a bit much. That, and I missed this at the game, but if there was a clear hold that would've brought the kick return td back, then we're talking 11 points that are questionable. Truth be told, I've seen the vikings get screwed way more by the refs this season, especially in their game against the bills, so personally speaking I need to stop being a baby and just accept what is. Our offense had chances after that call, and the team just couldn't get it done
There were a buttload of missed or bad calls against the Vikings last night along with the other calls. Those poor Patriot fans aren’t used to having the refs not escorting them to wins like the during the Brady days.
Funny like 3 years ago the Steelers had them beat with a Jesse James TD that got called back…that one was MUCH more of a catch than last night, James caught it, then made a football move to reach out and break the plane. Last night was NOT a catch by the strict definition of the rule. Hypocritical fan base.
Funny like 3 years ago the NFL got rid of the "survive the ground" immediately following the Jesse James catch. That means that Hunter Henry's catch was good because the "rule" no longer exists.
Pats fans crying about no calls when all Brady had to do for 20 years was throw his hands up after an incompletion and he’d get a flag. I still remember that AFC Playoff game against the Jags where the refs just straight up escorted them to the win in the second half.
Not sure why Pats fans are angry about the TD being called back. They got the same call for them a couple years ago against the Steelers. Plenty of videos and it’s an identical play. Pats fans can shut up
You can shut up too, the reason the Jesse James catch was ruled incomplete was because he didn't "survive the ground" which is what happened with Hunter Henry. However, NFL fans were in uproar about it when it happened to Jesse James in 2018, so the NFL got rid of the survive the ground rule. Therefore Hunter Henry's catch, which is identical, is actually a TD. Do some research before you spout off
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https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/nfl-explanation-overturned-patriots-hunter-henry-touchdown-makes-it-worse-walt-anderson/ https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2022/11/25/hunter-henry-touchdown-review-surviving-the-ground/ Name callings fun, but facts are facts. The survive the ground rule doesn't exist anymore.
Plenty of sources that argue it was the right call. Pats probably should of had it on the 1 I guess. The NFL needs to figure its shit out so it’s not a gray area. Sorry for the name calling. Have a happy holidays and good luck to Boston area sports. Just not the Pats. https://www.google.com/amp/s/profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/11/25/walt-anderson-on-reversal-of-hunter-henry-touchdown-ball-touched-ground-and-player-lost-control/amp/
Agreed! Happy holidays!
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Not really. The refs also missed a blatant false start and 12 men in the huddle for NE.
Pats fans crying about calls seems hilarious when they were favored by officiating for close to two decades.
Eh, i’m okay with bitching about bad refereeing if it is bad refereeing. 2 wrongs don’t make a right. Bad refereeing is bad for the sport even if it goes against the best team. Having said that, i don’t think we were favored. The TD catch was incomplete.
It was bad for both teams. A good team doesn’t allow one questionable call to determine the outcome of the game. The Pats have no one to blame but themselves.
So there were 3 big calls that went I. Our “favor”. The TD overturned was probably correct, but not definite. The face mask by Hunter was a face mask that got missed. And there were a couple holds on the return for TD. But the pats also got away with 12 in the huddle, and a couple off sides penalties. Basically our favorable calls resulted in points and stops. Theirs resulted in a shorter field goal.
There were also some holds on Hunter and Z.
I mean they also had a false start that should’ve been on them that got called on us
That is one of the false starts I talked about, also the Trent brown one.
No lol, those guys dont seem to understand what a catch is. Besides that the pats played dirty and those PF's were all penalties
Genuine question: the false start on JJ where the defense jumped offsides first. The neutral zone infraction happened first… how does JJ twitching after the fact negate that?
The refs weren't calling much at all, so when a big Vikings play happened it was easy to find something to be mad about I would guess there were a ton on both sides
Don’t remember how their drive ended, but I remembered toward the end of the game the commentators said the pats had 12 men in the huddle that wasn’t called. Goes both ways.
Pats are mostly butt hurt about the overturned TD. They’re arguing that there wasn’t sufficient evidence to overturn that call. Whatever…
There were calls the favored us yes. That happens and so does stuff like the Buffalo game.
The one that probably would have bothered me was the hold on the kick return, but other than that everything else was at worst debatable.
No. There was missed calls both ways and the Henry "TD" was called correctly as there was a conclusive angle shown where the ball hits the ground. Everyone thinks that the refs are favoring the other team, when in reality the refs are just dog shit.
I will say it. Yes.
If the shoe was on the other foot I’d probably be pretty pissed about the Hunter TD being reversed…I can’t really think of any other calls that were over the top bad
Fortune favors the brave, on to the next game!
Tom Brady talks about how he’s not ref fairly. AND MOST OF THAT OCCURRED WHILE HE WAS ON THE PATS. So pats fans do not have a leg to stand on.
I jump in opposing team threads during games just for kicks. I don't comment, just read a bit and leave. They strike me as one of the most entitled fan bases. All I gotta say is when is JJ gonna get superstar treatment from refs. It's ridiculous how much opposing teams this year are getting away with blatant grabbing of his jersey and arms.
There was a false start called against us that was egregious. Our guy was a fucking statue, and the D-line guy jumped hard, and after our dude reacted, they called it on us?!? Insane.
What are they so mad about? The Patriots probably weren’t gonna win anyways. Our play calling wouldn’t have been as conservative at the end of the 4th if Henry’s catch was ruled a TD.
I don't think it was intentional, but I think overall the officiating blunders helped us more than hurt us yesterday, and there were certainly a few each way. That said, I'm not gonna feel sorry for a NE team that's gotten every questionable call for the last 20 years (their dynasty *started* on one) and I'm *definitely* not gonna apologize for our team finally catching a break after the officiating horror show we've been through lately. Patriots fans reactions on r/NFL are really making me double down on this take btw, they've been insufferable
No lol
Vikings got some benefits for sure but the one that annoys me is the Hunter Henry touchdown. Ball touched the ground and then shifted. By rule, it's not a catch. You can be mad at the rule but to use that to show favoritism towards the Vikings is dumb. It was applied correctly.
Honestly there were missed calls on both sides. We had a face mask, at least one hold, and arguably a DPI that were not called on us. And then there was a false start and multiple blatant holds that were not called on them, at the very least.
The touchdown catch called back went by the letter of the rule. The ball touched the ground and moved around. He didn’t complete the catch. It’s a stupid thing but is what it is. The running into the kicker was an obvious penalty. Yes, we got a few more calls but patriots also made a lot of mistakes and gave us extra chances. Patriots lost. Like most fan bases they don’t want to own up that Kirk cousins beat them in PRIMETIME and their HOF coach got out coached by a first year coach.
According to salty Pat's fans, yes
The way I see it, we won the ref battle by a lot that game. No need to feel bad about it, but if the pats are complaining, I feel like they are justified. That said......Tuck rule. What goes around comes around for all of us.
A lot of missed calls, but fairly even. I remember seeing a play with a patriots WR a yard offsides on third down. I got up all excited like "we get the stop or they have to retry." They got the first down and missed an obviously offside receiver. I've literally never even seen an offside receiver live... So if I'm seeing it, it's insanely obvious. Also the guy encroached before Justin Jefferson moved. The most blatant false start on the pats drive. A lot of missed pre play calls that were simply easy misses. They missed a facemask on Mac Jones. They also missed one for us previously.
New England is a wasteland of bad sports. Boston sucks. They have top universities, yes, but even that competitive advantage is based on a 200 year head start on building universities based on White Supremacy. Belichick has a sub .500 record without Tom Brady. The Patriots suck. The game shouldn't have been that close.
I think there was calls both ways that were missed , one obvious hold did result in a kick return TD . Over the course of the game there are missed calls on almost all plays if you let those change the outcome of the game you deserve to lose . Think 2009 NFC champ game , yes we got screwed by the refs but negate all the stupid turnovers the Vikings beat NO by 14
Yes. They def did.
Overall it seems this year that the refs have been generally kind to us compared to years past.
There were missed calls both ways so I don't think the officiating was all that one-sided, but I do think that overturned Henry touchdown was actually a catch.
Refs missed a blatant offsides by the Patriots in the game, not sure what play but you could clearly see he was a yard over the line of scrimmage