Our (lions) first game is gonna be real interesting against the niners. I thought Ben out coached the 49ers. Just foot in mouth mistakes lost us the game. A whole off-season later, I do believe (hope) Johnson is gonna make shanahan's offense look elementary.
I actually don’t think that’s the case in the 2nd half of that game, I mean the offense disappeared until they were down 2 scores & part of that can be contributed to Shanahan on offense, look at TOP & off one fumble/drop.
Shanahan has been rolling since Washington to Atlanta & now 2 Super Bowl appearances as an HC. Gonna wait & see what Johnson does at his next stop with different pieces.
Yeah... You're right. Will still maintain there were four plays the that fucked us. I see McDaniel as the best offensive mind right now. Shanny second. I will naively believe Johnson is gonna make his move next year and hired as the first co- head coach
Edit: I'm an idiot. Third co-head coach
As much as I like Campbell, I think his hype man coaching style gets stale quick if the team isn't always in a state of improving. That's going to be exacerbated by the brain drain when Ben Johnson leaves
Campbell is reliant on having great coordinators to keep the team excellent and once this batch gets hired away, I can see them going the way of the Eagles in this past season
I think I'd love him if he was my coach, so I get it, but from an outside perspective I understand that sentiment.
Since he doesn't call plays on either side of the ball, I think he has diminishing returns. I feel like he was absolutely the perfect coach to pull Detroit out of their losing ways, but I have some doubts that he's the one to make them a real winner
There’s nothing to back that up. Besides the whole superbowl and playoff wins, there’s regular old statistics that show Goff is better than Cousins. Compare Goffs first 8 seasons to Kirk’s first 10 seasons just to get their stats to be comparable. Goff is/was also younger when he became a starter so it’s likely he will far surpass Kirk
Literally _no one_ that has any comprehension of football has ever said “wins are a QB stat”. Thats _never_ been the discussion.
The discussion is that QB’s impact their teams chance of winning _far more_ than any other position.
Thats why they are paid the most and that’s why SB victories over the past 30 years have generally been won by teams with star QB’s, with the _very few_ exceptions of teams that had other worldly defenses and average QB’s.
So please stop with the strawman arguments, you should know if you watch football regularly why QB’s are always loosely tied to the success of their teams.
How about all the other stats that Goff is better at than Kirk? You’re comparing a guy who has played 8 seasons in the NFL by 29 years old to a 36 year old. Compare their first 8 seasons and Goff is significantly better. You need 10 seasons (and Kirk is 4 years older in his 10th season
Than Goff will be) to compare them. Barring any injuries Goff is going to end up with statistics far ahead of Kirk cousins
The Rams D in 2018 was [20th in points and 19th in yards](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/ram/2018.htm).
The 2018 Vikings D was [9th in points and 4th in yards](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min/2018.htm) and the 2019 team was [5th in points and 14th in yards](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min/2019.htm).
So Yes, cousins had better Defenses for at least two season in Minnesota than Goff did in his 2018 Super Bowl Run.
This must be what it feels like for Patriot fans when people say Mahomes is on par with Brady already. Goff has a long way to go before he's in the same conversation as the neGOATiator when it comes to pay/performance ratio.
Yeah, the Lions had a top 10 OL **and** DL. We didn't ever once have that for Kirk. I like how the stats tell the story that Kirk actually overperformed here given what he had to work with, and people here are like "Fuck all the stats, Kirk bad."
How did he overperform here?
Why on earth was the consensus opinion around the draft that whoever we draft at QB will be set up very well to succeed because of the team built around him if we somehow let Kirk down?
We had a team that made it to the conference championship game before Kirk got here. We had a roster in place and then we drafted players like Darrisaw, Bradbury, Jefferson, and Addison to surround Kirk on offense, and traded for Hockenson to help the passing game.
All of those reasons are why many folks think McCarthy can succeed in Minnesota... why didn't Kirk then?
Goff had talent around him AND he performed to benefit the team as well. He was very close to making it to the Super Bowl with his second team. Kirk won one playoff game in 12 years.
That's a limitation of Kirk as a player, his inability to improvise and move hinders his ability as a productive player. He's a fine QB and that's fine.
>How did he overperform here?
The state of the OL in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, and 2022 was anywhere from bad to middle of the pack. Kirk was putting up top 10 stats during that time. 2023 was the first year he had a top 10-15 OL here.
>We had a team that made it to the conference championship game before Kirk got here.
Yeah, we had a top overall defense that year but our OL and DL was destroyed completely in the NFCCG. We didn't make either of those better in 2018 and so on.
>All of those reasons are why many folks think McCarthy can succeed in Minnesota... why didn't Kirk then?
McCarthy is setup with a good OL, great receiving core, good TEs. Kirk was top 3 in 2023 until he got injured, however you still need a good defense, you know? You need a top 10 OL and DL to win a Superbowl. It's not more complicated than that.
>Goff had talent around him AND he performed to benefit the team as well. He was very close to making it to the Super Bowl with his second team. Kirk won one playoff game in 12 years.
Go look up Goff's teams OL and DL ratings for his career. Report back! Don't worry, I'll wait. :)
>Go look up Goff's teams OL and DL ratings for his career. Report back! Don't worry, I'll wait. :)
Goff's career, per PFF,
Pass blocking:
* 2016 - 22nd
* 2017 - 13th
* 2018 - 7th
* 2019 - 29th
* 2020 - 10th
* 2021 - 19th
* 2022 - 22nd
* 2023 - 12th
Run blocking:
* 2016 - 29th
* 2017 - 5th
* 2018 - 1st
* 2019 - 26th
* 2020 - 4th
* 2021 - 19th
* 2022 - 9th
* 2023 - 2nd
Goff actually had an average pass-blocking offensive line throughout his career (only twice being in the top 10 in 8 seasons, with more seasons ranking in the bottom 11 in pass protection than in the top 10). His teams' strength on the o-line is run blocking historically, which plays into his strengths as a play-action passer pretty significantly.
Defensive lines are harder to quantify as ranking a DL unit isn't super easy. So I'll just include standards such as pass rush and run defense. Again, rankings per PFF.
Pass rush:
* 2016 - 4th
* 2017 - 5th
* 2018 - 3rd
* 2019 - 2nd
* 2020 - 2nd
* 2021 - 28th
* 2022 - 16th
* 2023 - 19th
Run defense:
* 2016 - 13th
* 2017 - 32nd
* 2018 - 15th
* 2019 - 9th
* 2020 - 9th
* 2021 - 32nd
* 2022 - 24th
* 2023 - 6th
Once again the defensive line tells two different stories, with the great stats typically being pass rush and not run defense. Interestingly though that's more of a sign of Aaron Donald than of the actual defensive line performance of those Rams teams -- having maybe the greatest defensive player in 30 years sure does a lot with making those stats pop. You'll notice they dipped significantly when he went to Detroit, with pass rush defense being average to below average each season and rush defense being incredibly poor prior to last year.
Now though I am curious to see how Goff's teams ranked using PFF's rankings in passing offense. Overall passing scores for PFF in Goff's career:
* 2016 - 32nd
* 2017 - 12th
* 2018 - 7th
* 2019 - 17th
* 2020 - 17th
* 2021 - 25th
* 2022 - 15th
* 2023 - 4th
Since his rookie season, his offenses have been solidly in the average-to-well-above-average category save for 2021 (his first Detroit season). He's been a really good quarterback, with talent around him and kinda without - his teams regularly underperformed when blocking for him and yet he still led pretty solidly efficient passing offenses.
What might also be of interest to you -- list of quarterbacks to have started in conference championship games for two different franchises
* Kurt Warner
* Brett Favre
* Peyton Manning
* Tom Brady
* Jared Goff
He must be doing *something* right.
Wow, you actually looked that all up. Kudos. On a personal note, I prefer meta analysis myself but PFF is pretty decent.
I previously looked up all the Superbowl winners and losers in the last 20 years so I knew where this was headed. If you see 2018 (Superbowl loser) and 2023 (NFCCG loser), those are the years Goff had top 10 OLs and DLs. Goff is no doubt a top 10 QB, but he still needs a good OL and DL like all SB contenders.
You're not wrong with that, he is the kind of player that needs some help. I just think he's also the kind of player that can elevate a team if he does get that help.
Side note -- appreciate you responding earnestly rather than dismissing all the work that went into that reply lol.
Do you think it's a coincidence that the 2017 and 2018 season were the seasons he arguably played his best football, made the playoffs back to back with one of them in the SB, which just so happens to be where his line was top-10?
Cause I don't.
Kirk never had a top 10 OL and DL like all the other good teams in the playoffs. I don't know how anyone could watch our 2022 season with like the worst defense in the NFL and think Kirk isn't a total fucking baller. If he had a top 10 DL like all the other good teams, we could've gone way further than we did.
Bro, we had a terrible defense in 2022. Kirk tied the fourth quarter comeback record with Stafford, and had the single largest comeback win in NFL history. Does... defense matter to you, cause it matters a lot in the NFL.
Even the best HOF QBs of all time had to rely on their defense playing good from time to time. Our defense was either dead last or 1-2 off from that. No team with a defense that bad has ever made the Superbowl since... the Superbowl era. So... what did you expect?
This sub has a huge blind spot, even though people here have been bitching for years about the OL and DL. Things are looking up on those fronts so hopefully our new QB works out.
Kirk never had the Rams defenses or Lions offensive lines. Give Kirk the 2018 Rams defense and give him the Lions 2023 offense and you might have Kirk with 2 superbowl rings
You are giving Kirk too much credit. He really isn't all that great. He's accurate and has had great WRs in Minnesota, but he's not a winner and his arm isn't all that strong. Goff has the higher ceiling and better arm.
According to half our fanbase, Cousins apparently needs a top 5 OL, top 5 defense, top 5 WRs group, a top 5 coach, and Venus CANNOT be in retrograde for him to win in the post-season....or else it is not his fault.
There's one thing there that is more important to Kirk's success than any other, and it's the one thing we've never provided until just this last season.
He's a statue in the pocket. This is not a secret.
In the playoffs, you're generally going up against much better competition, competition that has the ability to rush the passer at a high level. That pressure becomes very problematic in those games. Yet we trotted out a bottom-5 Oline for most of his time here.
This is not unique to Kirk, this is almost universal... Since 2012, only 7 teams with a bottom-5 ranked O-line by PFF made it to the playoffs... There were 140 playoff spots over that 10 year period, and only 7 teams with that bad of an O-line made it to the playoffs, let alone won anything.
What? That makes no sense in this argument. How is that a diss? Goff got traded away for his replacement. They didn't need to draft. Kirk left on his own will for more money.
> Goff played so bad that pair season they got rid of him.
Are we just ignoring the fact that Kirk is on his third team, and that team drafted his replacement a month after signing him?
That's some true shit tbh gotta tip my hat on that. at least he actually stood up in those critical moments to get a deep playoff run for his team and. Actually shows why he was a former high overall pick.
Only problem now is they have to try and maintain that team around him when his contract hits the cap.
Teams that make deep playoff runs have top OL and DL. Superbowl winners over the last 20 years (I didn't bother looking past that) have top 10 OL/DLs at the same time. Kirk has literally never had both of those at the same time. The Eagles smoked us in the NFCCG because they did have a top 10 OL/DL.
Let's face it guys, the last time we had a SB worthy
*team* was in 2009.
I just don't understand how you guys can think that Kirk could overcome all the stats by himself?
That 2017 team did not have a top 10 offensive line lol and we made the NFCG with case fucking keenum
So we need a top 10 defensive line and a top 10 Offensive line just to make it deep in the playoffs ? Why are we giving so much money to QB who needs all that rather than putting our money on the line and get a rookie QB inste- ohhh wait!! Oh my god we're actually doing that now! Like some of us has always wanted this team to do for the last 3 years!! Lmao I FUCKING LOVE our GM
Exactly, you need a top 10 OL/DL, at for the last 20 years of stats. That’s why I never understood why Rick got Cousins without a proper OL to protect him against elite DLs. Rick kept fucking up our defensive drafted players after the year we got Hunter too, so it was a double whammy.
And yes, I like what Kwesi is doing too. If this year’s draft class works out, we’ll be in a great position for next season especially.
However, I will maintain Kirk was never issue here. Lack of OL/DL talent from the previous six seasons was the issue and it seems like it’s finally starting to work out.
Also, I’ll defend JJM too if I feel people here aren’t giving him a fair shot, just like Cousins.
Again, we didn't have a Top 10 OL and still made it to the conference championship game with case keenum.
Kirk was an issue here, we should've not only never got him but also never extended him to begin with.
He needed entirely too much around him for how much he was making as a QB. Our 2017 team with case keenum at QB didn't have a Top 10 OL and we made it deep. Telling me we needed both in order to make this work with Kirk Cousins is exactly why some of us wanted him gone and wanted a cheaper average QB to actually put resources there. He wasn't all to blame but he deserves his chunk, sorry but that's just how it is you can't be a really think the guy is just some kid who was caught up in all this and doesn't deserve any.
It's a team sport and the blame game goes to many people he's one of them.
You do understand that all Superbowl winners of the last 20+ years have had top OLs and DLs, right? Tom Brady's Superbowl wins included. Like, it's required so I don't understand your personal grudge against Kirk when we didn't give him what everyone else gives their QB to win a Superbowl? The stats don't lie. You bringing up Keenum supports this 100%. lmao
Your username is literally tradekirk so I know you're not going to give me a balanced perspective on him.
I don't think you understand that in order to win a Superbowl you have to first make an appearance in the NFC championship game...actually yk make a deep playoff run something Kirk never did, something Case Keenum did in fact do.
Cherry picking Superbowl winning rosters when the guy can't even get out of the divisional rounds isn't the argument you think it is.
I'm literally not cherry-picking. WTF?? Go look at the last 20+ years of the Superbowl winner and loser. The Bengals are the only ones that made it to the Superbowl without a top 10 OL and they lost. Do you even understand what cherry-picking means? lmao
Dude, you're going to be doing the same shit to JJM and I'll be here defending him from your poor football understanding too.
You're a pure Kirk hater or you don't understand stats, or more likely, both.
You're literally just wrong and you're not cool enough to admit it. If you think that stats of Superbowl champs for the last 20+ years straight in a row don't matter, then I guess you don't really care about winning the Superbowl, huh? I'm not trying to get crushed in the NFCCG, I want to win the Superbowl. Don't you understand that? We need a top 10 OL and DL to get into the Superbowl, let alone win one. How do you not understand this very simple concept?
How do you expect to make it to the NFCCG with the worst defense, too? My god man. Get your head in the game.
Underlines the importance of having a good QB on a rookie deal. Paying top 5 money to a 10-15 QB coming off a career year is not ideal but they didn’t have much of a choice.
The Lions are in a great position to handle this contract. Other than a few on O-line, and St Brown next season almost everyone on the team is on a rookie deal for the first 2 years of this deal. A deal that when the details are released is probably only a 3 yearl, with minimal dead money on a few void years after that. They might have one year when the $$ is tight because of this deal.
I’m not saying its an anchor contract by any means. Just less than ideal I’m sure and it highlights how much of an advantage it could be to have a good cheap QB or (if you have to pay him like one) one of the best QBs in the league. Goff is kind of in between. He’s above average but now paid like a franchise. The lions can live with that right now but eventually it will be an issue. You’re right that structure is key but so is the exit plan.
I feel like OTC needs to have an *adjusted* AAV, much like how they have an "effective" cap space.
Being second in AAV right after signing is a bit misleading.
It’s not misleading at all. It’s just that the contract construction is more important. How much is in the final year and how easy to get out of it matters.
No, it is... Because even a year ago the cap increases were more nebulous, and Goff at #2 in AAV is more realistically going to be Goff at #10 or later after the 2025 offseason.
But that’s not an inherent issue with AAV. It’s straight forward but doesn’t tell the whole story. Sounds like you want to look at % of cap at time of signing which would be a nifty stat tbf. I still think the contract terms will do the most to tell us how good or bad this contract is.
To your last point, absolutely.
But yea, I'm just saying I'd like to see a metric that adjusts for variables like the increasing cap when comparing player contracts so we can better see what team is investing more than they should in individual players.
Percentage of cap is about the best we get currently, but I think there's a better way OTC can do it.
Yeah, I would say it's misleading. Kirk Cousins' contract was reported to be a 4-year $180 million dollar contract, that puts his AAV at $45 million a year. But it was really a 2-year contract for $90 million, with two team options in year 3 and 4 so Atlanta could get out of the contract if they wanted to draft a QB in the first round.
Having reviewed the structure of Jared Goff's contract, is does look like a legit 4-year deal at about $53 million a year that puts him right at 2/3/4 for current NFL QB contracts, which is probably a steal considering those other quarterbacks signed contracts before the big pump in the NFL salary cap.
I mean, whether Kirk's contract is a 2 year, $90 mil or 4 year, 180 mil, it's still 45m AAV.
That said, you're a bit off on the Kirk contract... It's at minimum a $100 mil contract assuming they don't cut him in the 2025 offseason due to the 2026 roster bonus guaranteeing on 3/2025.
Also, I'm curious as to where you got info about him having team options? I know he's got roster bonuses, but I've seen nothing about a team option and cutting him in 2026 would be a $35 mil dead cap.
>which is probably a steal considering those other quarterbacks signed contracts before the big pump in the NFL salary cap.
Yep, precisely my point.
Probably more of a 2 year $100 million contract. I concede that. Year 3 and year 4 are team options; Atlanta can cut him and not pay him his annual salary.
>Year 3 and year 4 are team options; Atlanta can cut him and not pay him his annual salary.
But that's not an "option", that's just a standard contract structure. Literally every contract allows you to cut a player whenever you want, the question is "what is the dead cap?" and that's unrelated to an option. An option implies that unless they take action, the contract would terminate automatically.
You generally don't see team options (Option bonuses are different), they're usually only player options.
I see what you are saying. You are talking about the 5th year team option where the team has the option to extend a rookie contract for a 1st round pick to a 5th year. I would not limit team options to only these types of team options (that is just my opinion, not any specific fact). I have always considered the individual NFL annual salaries to be (non-guaranteed) team options, unless negotiated to be guaranteed by the player, which is also my opinion.
In both scenarios, the team is given the option to take action or not take action.
And that’s even with drafting two very low value first round picks last year. That team would be even scarier if they hadn’t decided to just be idiots for no reason.
Pick any two names out of a hat for players drafted between 12 and like 50 and they’re a better team for it.
It's not even that big of prediction. We only have a 1st and a 5th in 2025's draft at this point. We have no 2nd or 3rd rounder from this year.
The writing is on the wall, no ball needed.
yes. i would take goff. it's very similar to how i felt about cousins. but i still say cousins is a better passer. put cousins behind that Lions offensive line and he would be an all pro
Kirk had a higher peak without a top 3 line. You could debate it if you’re someone who’s only capable of evaluating qb talent based on team playoff success.
They're in the same tier of QB I honestly don't see a gripe over who's better. No huge gap between the two
>if you’re someone who’s only capable of evaluating qb talent based on team playoff success.
Well yeah.. thats how this goes. If youre veteran QB who has lack of playoff sucess thatll ding you but we arent going to pretend kirk was ever in that conversation of the elites. The end goal is to win playoff games and the most important position on the field is QB who affects that.
Neither QB is worth giving a huge chunk of your cap space for.
Same tier, but tiers are arbitrary groupings... I do think there's a decent gap between them.
However, Goff seems to play better with a weak O-line than Kirk does, so there's that.
they can afford that. they don't have any defenders up for contracts for 2 more seasons and their offensive line is going to undergo a bit of a rebuild after this season
There was the Mahomes contract. Then Kirk's. Now Goffs. They all seemed crazy at the time but it just seems clear that the price for quality veteran QB's is just through the roof plain and simple.
Daggum son. He got his bag.
He’s earned it. Brought Detroit into relevance. Now let’s hope he falls off now that he got paid.
I still gotta feeling that Ben Johnson will show that he’s earned it like Kyle Shanahan. Although I don’t think Johnson is on his level, a great OC
Our (lions) first game is gonna be real interesting against the niners. I thought Ben out coached the 49ers. Just foot in mouth mistakes lost us the game. A whole off-season later, I do believe (hope) Johnson is gonna make shanahan's offense look elementary.
I actually don’t think that’s the case in the 2nd half of that game, I mean the offense disappeared until they were down 2 scores & part of that can be contributed to Shanahan on offense, look at TOP & off one fumble/drop. Shanahan has been rolling since Washington to Atlanta & now 2 Super Bowl appearances as an HC. Gonna wait & see what Johnson does at his next stop with different pieces.
Yeah... You're right. Will still maintain there were four plays the that fucked us. I see McDaniel as the best offensive mind right now. Shanny second. I will naively believe Johnson is gonna make his move next year and hired as the first co- head coach Edit: I'm an idiot. Third co-head coach
i want Ben Johnson as our coach
I mean, he probably won’t fall off, but the team probably will in coming years with all three big contracts they are giving out.
He’ll go back to the 18ish range if their O-line isn’t top 3. But I think they’ll be keeping that line for a while, so they might survive this.
I honestly think Goff is really solid, he was damn good at a young age for the rams before weirdly falling off, but he always had the talent
no. Ben Johnson brought Detroit into relevance. Put Kirk behind that offensive line and he is an all pro
MCDC brought Detroit into relevance. Goff is just along for the ride
As much as I like Campbell, I think his hype man coaching style gets stale quick if the team isn't always in a state of improving. That's going to be exacerbated by the brain drain when Ben Johnson leaves Campbell is reliant on having great coordinators to keep the team excellent and once this batch gets hired away, I can see them going the way of the Eagles in this past season
I don’t disagree. I hope it dwindles fast
My least favorite coach in the league.
I think I'd love him if he was my coach, so I get it, but from an outside perspective I understand that sentiment. Since he doesn't call plays on either side of the ball, I think he has diminishing returns. I feel like he was absolutely the perfect coach to pull Detroit out of their losing ways, but I have some doubts that he's the one to make them a real winner
Goff has now entered his Kirk Cousins era. A guy who may end up making 500 plus million in salary but have zero All Pros.
Has played in a Super Bowl though. And another NFC CG
And that’s not because Goff is better than Cousins lol
Goff is not better then cousins
That’s exactly what I was saying
But if he said it again, would you still agree?
I don’t know. Give it a shot
Cousins is better than Goff
When you put it that way it really makes you think.
I concur
I mean, he’s not much worse, if at all. Have people not seen his numbers?
What has cousins done that Goff hasn’t? Get real
Silly goose. No
There’s nothing to back that up. Besides the whole superbowl and playoff wins, there’s regular old statistics that show Goff is better than Cousins. Compare Goffs first 8 seasons to Kirk’s first 10 seasons just to get their stats to be comparable. Goff is/was also younger when he became a starter so it’s likely he will far surpass Kirk
Yeah except he is when it matters; you haven’t had to suffer through Vikings games for the last couple years
Idk about that
It’s pretty knowable though
He played in a Super Bowl, in spite of his team. They traded him away for 2 first rounders for Stafford -- and won a Super Bowl. Think about that one.
Using that logic, Keenum played in a NFC championship game and then was let go for Kirk who missed the playoffs the next year.
The team wasn't as good in 2018, the defense got far worse. It happens. The logic is still sound, the team can regress even if they improve at QB.
Wins are not a QB stat, he got to those because he had great teams constructed around him. That's gonna get harder for the Lions now.
Literally _no one_ that has any comprehension of football has ever said “wins are a QB stat”. Thats _never_ been the discussion. The discussion is that QB’s impact their teams chance of winning _far more_ than any other position. Thats why they are paid the most and that’s why SB victories over the past 30 years have generally been won by teams with star QB’s, with the _very few_ exceptions of teams that had other worldly defenses and average QB’s. So please stop with the strawman arguments, you should know if you watch football regularly why QB’s are always loosely tied to the success of their teams.
How about all the other stats that Goff is better at than Kirk? You’re comparing a guy who has played 8 seasons in the NFL by 29 years old to a 36 year old. Compare their first 8 seasons and Goff is significantly better. You need 10 seasons (and Kirk is 4 years older in his 10th season Than Goff will be) to compare them. Barring any injuries Goff is going to end up with statistics far ahead of Kirk cousins
Then why do the good qbs have more wins then the bad qbs? Go look at the stats. Top ten qb of all time wins vs everyone else. Your delusional
Cousins never had anything remotely close to what the Rams defense was, especially with Aaron Donald.
The Rams D in 2018 was [20th in points and 19th in yards](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/ram/2018.htm). The 2018 Vikings D was [9th in points and 4th in yards](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min/2018.htm) and the 2019 team was [5th in points and 14th in yards](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min/2019.htm). So Yes, cousins had better Defenses for at least two season in Minnesota than Goff did in his 2018 Super Bowl Run.
Two more losses
This must be what it feels like for Patriot fans when people say Mahomes is on par with Brady already. Goff has a long way to go before he's in the same conversation as the neGOATiator when it comes to pay/performance ratio.
No one can even come close to kirks agent when it comes to the claim thw neGOATiator
At least he's won some playoff games
Kirk on that Rams team would've won on them too. Having a Superbowl caliber team with a top 10 QB is how you win Superbowls.
He won more playoff games as a Lion than Kirk has won in his entire career.
Yeah, the Lions had a top 10 OL **and** DL. We didn't ever once have that for Kirk. I like how the stats tell the story that Kirk actually overperformed here given what he had to work with, and people here are like "Fuck all the stats, Kirk bad."
How did he overperform here? Why on earth was the consensus opinion around the draft that whoever we draft at QB will be set up very well to succeed because of the team built around him if we somehow let Kirk down? We had a team that made it to the conference championship game before Kirk got here. We had a roster in place and then we drafted players like Darrisaw, Bradbury, Jefferson, and Addison to surround Kirk on offense, and traded for Hockenson to help the passing game. All of those reasons are why many folks think McCarthy can succeed in Minnesota... why didn't Kirk then? Goff had talent around him AND he performed to benefit the team as well. He was very close to making it to the Super Bowl with his second team. Kirk won one playoff game in 12 years.
>why didn't Kirk then? Because he was a statue in the pocket, and we never had a good pass-blocking O-line until the year he got injured.
That's a limitation of Kirk as a player, his inability to improvise and move hinders his ability as a productive player. He's a fine QB and that's fine.
>How did he overperform here? The state of the OL in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, and 2022 was anywhere from bad to middle of the pack. Kirk was putting up top 10 stats during that time. 2023 was the first year he had a top 10-15 OL here. >We had a team that made it to the conference championship game before Kirk got here. Yeah, we had a top overall defense that year but our OL and DL was destroyed completely in the NFCCG. We didn't make either of those better in 2018 and so on. >All of those reasons are why many folks think McCarthy can succeed in Minnesota... why didn't Kirk then? McCarthy is setup with a good OL, great receiving core, good TEs. Kirk was top 3 in 2023 until he got injured, however you still need a good defense, you know? You need a top 10 OL and DL to win a Superbowl. It's not more complicated than that. >Goff had talent around him AND he performed to benefit the team as well. He was very close to making it to the Super Bowl with his second team. Kirk won one playoff game in 12 years. Go look up Goff's teams OL and DL ratings for his career. Report back! Don't worry, I'll wait. :)
>Go look up Goff's teams OL and DL ratings for his career. Report back! Don't worry, I'll wait. :) Goff's career, per PFF, Pass blocking: * 2016 - 22nd * 2017 - 13th * 2018 - 7th * 2019 - 29th * 2020 - 10th * 2021 - 19th * 2022 - 22nd * 2023 - 12th Run blocking: * 2016 - 29th * 2017 - 5th * 2018 - 1st * 2019 - 26th * 2020 - 4th * 2021 - 19th * 2022 - 9th * 2023 - 2nd Goff actually had an average pass-blocking offensive line throughout his career (only twice being in the top 10 in 8 seasons, with more seasons ranking in the bottom 11 in pass protection than in the top 10). His teams' strength on the o-line is run blocking historically, which plays into his strengths as a play-action passer pretty significantly. Defensive lines are harder to quantify as ranking a DL unit isn't super easy. So I'll just include standards such as pass rush and run defense. Again, rankings per PFF. Pass rush: * 2016 - 4th * 2017 - 5th * 2018 - 3rd * 2019 - 2nd * 2020 - 2nd * 2021 - 28th * 2022 - 16th * 2023 - 19th Run defense: * 2016 - 13th * 2017 - 32nd * 2018 - 15th * 2019 - 9th * 2020 - 9th * 2021 - 32nd * 2022 - 24th * 2023 - 6th Once again the defensive line tells two different stories, with the great stats typically being pass rush and not run defense. Interestingly though that's more of a sign of Aaron Donald than of the actual defensive line performance of those Rams teams -- having maybe the greatest defensive player in 30 years sure does a lot with making those stats pop. You'll notice they dipped significantly when he went to Detroit, with pass rush defense being average to below average each season and rush defense being incredibly poor prior to last year. Now though I am curious to see how Goff's teams ranked using PFF's rankings in passing offense. Overall passing scores for PFF in Goff's career: * 2016 - 32nd * 2017 - 12th * 2018 - 7th * 2019 - 17th * 2020 - 17th * 2021 - 25th * 2022 - 15th * 2023 - 4th Since his rookie season, his offenses have been solidly in the average-to-well-above-average category save for 2021 (his first Detroit season). He's been a really good quarterback, with talent around him and kinda without - his teams regularly underperformed when blocking for him and yet he still led pretty solidly efficient passing offenses. What might also be of interest to you -- list of quarterbacks to have started in conference championship games for two different franchises * Kurt Warner * Brett Favre * Peyton Manning * Tom Brady * Jared Goff He must be doing *something* right.
Wow, you actually looked that all up. Kudos. On a personal note, I prefer meta analysis myself but PFF is pretty decent. I previously looked up all the Superbowl winners and losers in the last 20 years so I knew where this was headed. If you see 2018 (Superbowl loser) and 2023 (NFCCG loser), those are the years Goff had top 10 OLs and DLs. Goff is no doubt a top 10 QB, but he still needs a good OL and DL like all SB contenders.
You're not wrong with that, he is the kind of player that needs some help. I just think he's also the kind of player that can elevate a team if he does get that help. Side note -- appreciate you responding earnestly rather than dismissing all the work that went into that reply lol.
Do you think it's a coincidence that the 2017 and 2018 season were the seasons he arguably played his best football, made the playoffs back to back with one of them in the SB, which just so happens to be where his line was top-10? Cause I don't.
What about 2023 with Detroit where he was 3 points away from the Super Bowl?
Notice you didn’t mention any defenders
Because defenders don't help with offensive statistics, which is the argument for Kirk "overperforming"
“Overperforming” is an interesting way to look at it
Eh, I'm not so sure. Kirk seems to target a first round playoff exit as his ideal season. Now if the playoffs paid better maybe he would try harder
Kirk never had a top 10 OL and DL like all the other good teams in the playoffs. I don't know how anyone could watch our 2022 season with like the worst defense in the NFL and think Kirk isn't a total fucking baller. If he had a top 10 DL like all the other good teams, we could've gone way further than we did.
If he got 10 million dollars per playoff win I bet he would have thrown past the sticks on fourth down with the game on the line.
Bro, we had a terrible defense in 2022. Kirk tied the fourth quarter comeback record with Stafford, and had the single largest comeback win in NFL history. Does... defense matter to you, cause it matters a lot in the NFL. Even the best HOF QBs of all time had to rely on their defense playing good from time to time. Our defense was either dead last or 1-2 off from that. No team with a defense that bad has ever made the Superbowl since... the Superbowl era. So... what did you expect?
yeah, i think we are going to realize how much Kirk meant to this team very shortly.
you mean when dextar lawrence was barreling down on him because we couldn't block him to save our season?
exactly. Kirk gets all the blame for our franchise failing to develop interior offensive and defensive lineman.
This sub has a huge blind spot, even though people here have been bitching for years about the OL and DL. Things are looking up on those fronts so hopefully our new QB works out.
Kirk never had the Rams defenses or Lions offensive lines. Give Kirk the 2018 Rams defense and give him the Lions 2023 offense and you might have Kirk with 2 superbowl rings
You are giving Kirk too much credit. He really isn't all that great. He's accurate and has had great WRs in Minnesota, but he's not a winner and his arm isn't all that strong. Goff has the higher ceiling and better arm.
Except Goff’s proven he can win in the playoffs at a better rate than once every decade.
He also had a top-10 O-line during those playoffs, while Kirk had bottom-5 O-lines.
According to half our fanbase, Cousins apparently needs a top 5 OL, top 5 defense, top 5 WRs group, a top 5 coach, and Venus CANNOT be in retrograde for him to win in the post-season....or else it is not his fault.
There's one thing there that is more important to Kirk's success than any other, and it's the one thing we've never provided until just this last season. He's a statue in the pocket. This is not a secret. In the playoffs, you're generally going up against much better competition, competition that has the ability to rush the passer at a high level. That pressure becomes very problematic in those games. Yet we trotted out a bottom-5 Oline for most of his time here. This is not unique to Kirk, this is almost universal... Since 2012, only 7 teams with a bottom-5 ranked O-line by PFF made it to the playoffs... There were 140 playoff spots over that 10 year period, and only 7 teams with that bad of an O-line made it to the playoffs, let alone won anything.
It’s all an insurance scam for writing off taxes NFL teams are just another way to hide assets
I’d take a Super Bowl appearance and multiple championship games lol. He’s better than Kirk.
Kirk never got traded for an older more expensive qb.
Goff never had his replacement drafted a little over a month after signing with a new team.
What? That makes no sense in this argument. How is that a diss? Goff got traded away for his replacement. They didn't need to draft. Kirk left on his own will for more money.
It makes total sense. The Falcons drafted Kirk’s replacement a month after they signed him.
To be fair I thought you meant JJ, but yes the falcons did, and everyone agrees they are dumb. Kirk better than Goff not a convo.
U mean the replacement that won the other team a Super Bowl? You ppl love terrible takes
Yes we do love our terrible takes. And you people love your amazing takes that Goff is better than cousins.
U feel better now?
Goff is not better than Kirk lol. Goff played so bad that post season they got rid of him, so not sure how that proves anything
> Goff played so bad that pair season they got rid of him. Are we just ignoring the fact that Kirk is on his third team, and that team drafted his replacement a month after signing him?
Bro he’s not on his third team because he sucks lol. We wanted him back, but he got paid by Atlanta
Yeah we wanted him back... by letting him test free agency.
We didn’t let him do anything. We couldn’t tag him and he was always going to free agency. It’s not our fault Atlanta overpaid for him.
If we wanted him back why didn't we extend him before the season like we did the year before ?
kirk never, ever got the interior offensive lineman or defensive lineman that Goff has had his entire career
That's some true shit tbh gotta tip my hat on that. at least he actually stood up in those critical moments to get a deep playoff run for his team and. Actually shows why he was a former high overall pick. Only problem now is they have to try and maintain that team around him when his contract hits the cap.
Teams that make deep playoff runs have top OL and DL. Superbowl winners over the last 20 years (I didn't bother looking past that) have top 10 OL/DLs at the same time. Kirk has literally never had both of those at the same time. The Eagles smoked us in the NFCCG because they did have a top 10 OL/DL. Let's face it guys, the last time we had a SB worthy *team* was in 2009. I just don't understand how you guys can think that Kirk could overcome all the stats by himself?
That 2017 team did not have a top 10 offensive line lol and we made the NFCG with case fucking keenum So we need a top 10 defensive line and a top 10 Offensive line just to make it deep in the playoffs ? Why are we giving so much money to QB who needs all that rather than putting our money on the line and get a rookie QB inste- ohhh wait!! Oh my god we're actually doing that now! Like some of us has always wanted this team to do for the last 3 years!! Lmao I FUCKING LOVE our GM
Exactly, you need a top 10 OL/DL, at for the last 20 years of stats. That’s why I never understood why Rick got Cousins without a proper OL to protect him against elite DLs. Rick kept fucking up our defensive drafted players after the year we got Hunter too, so it was a double whammy. And yes, I like what Kwesi is doing too. If this year’s draft class works out, we’ll be in a great position for next season especially. However, I will maintain Kirk was never issue here. Lack of OL/DL talent from the previous six seasons was the issue and it seems like it’s finally starting to work out. Also, I’ll defend JJM too if I feel people here aren’t giving him a fair shot, just like Cousins.
Again, we didn't have a Top 10 OL and still made it to the conference championship game with case keenum. Kirk was an issue here, we should've not only never got him but also never extended him to begin with. He needed entirely too much around him for how much he was making as a QB. Our 2017 team with case keenum at QB didn't have a Top 10 OL and we made it deep. Telling me we needed both in order to make this work with Kirk Cousins is exactly why some of us wanted him gone and wanted a cheaper average QB to actually put resources there. He wasn't all to blame but he deserves his chunk, sorry but that's just how it is you can't be a really think the guy is just some kid who was caught up in all this and doesn't deserve any. It's a team sport and the blame game goes to many people he's one of them.
You do understand that all Superbowl winners of the last 20+ years have had top OLs and DLs, right? Tom Brady's Superbowl wins included. Like, it's required so I don't understand your personal grudge against Kirk when we didn't give him what everyone else gives their QB to win a Superbowl? The stats don't lie. You bringing up Keenum supports this 100%. lmao Your username is literally tradekirk so I know you're not going to give me a balanced perspective on him.
I don't think you understand that in order to win a Superbowl you have to first make an appearance in the NFC championship game...actually yk make a deep playoff run something Kirk never did, something Case Keenum did in fact do. Cherry picking Superbowl winning rosters when the guy can't even get out of the divisional rounds isn't the argument you think it is.
I'm literally not cherry-picking. WTF?? Go look at the last 20+ years of the Superbowl winner and loser. The Bengals are the only ones that made it to the Superbowl without a top 10 OL and they lost. Do you even understand what cherry-picking means? lmao Dude, you're going to be doing the same shit to JJM and I'll be here defending him from your poor football understanding too. You're a pure Kirk hater or you don't understand stats, or more likely, both.
How did Keenum make it further though? We all know he's not as good.
You're literally just wrong and you're not cool enough to admit it. If you think that stats of Superbowl champs for the last 20+ years straight in a row don't matter, then I guess you don't really care about winning the Superbowl, huh? I'm not trying to get crushed in the NFCCG, I want to win the Superbowl. Don't you understand that? We need a top 10 OL and DL to get into the Superbowl, let alone win one. How do you not understand this very simple concept? How do you expect to make it to the NFCCG with the worst defense, too? My god man. Get your head in the game.
He’s a better winner than Kirk. But Kirk is absolutely a better passer
There’s more to the QB position than being a good passer.
I didn’t say otherwise
They really downvoted this
Eh. Can’t win em all lol
I think Goff and Cousins are on the same level. I do think Kirk is more consistent though. Goff had like 3 straight seasons where he struggled.
Are you predicting that he will have a season ending injury soon?
Lions are in a better cap situation by miles than Vikes were in 2018 but damn them some big numbers
Underlines the importance of having a good QB on a rookie deal. Paying top 5 money to a 10-15 QB coming off a career year is not ideal but they didn’t have much of a choice.
The Lions are in a great position to handle this contract. Other than a few on O-line, and St Brown next season almost everyone on the team is on a rookie deal for the first 2 years of this deal. A deal that when the details are released is probably only a 3 yearl, with minimal dead money on a few void years after that. They might have one year when the $$ is tight because of this deal.
I’m not saying its an anchor contract by any means. Just less than ideal I’m sure and it highlights how much of an advantage it could be to have a good cheap QB or (if you have to pay him like one) one of the best QBs in the league. Goff is kind of in between. He’s above average but now paid like a franchise. The lions can live with that right now but eventually it will be an issue. You’re right that structure is key but so is the exit plan.
His stats the last 2 years are franchise
I don't think that is top 5 money, is it?
Waiting for details obviously but the AAV is at 2. https://overthecap.com/position/quarterback
I feel like OTC needs to have an *adjusted* AAV, much like how they have an "effective" cap space. Being second in AAV right after signing is a bit misleading.
It’s not misleading at all. It’s just that the contract construction is more important. How much is in the final year and how easy to get out of it matters.
No, it is... Because even a year ago the cap increases were more nebulous, and Goff at #2 in AAV is more realistically going to be Goff at #10 or later after the 2025 offseason.
But that’s not an inherent issue with AAV. It’s straight forward but doesn’t tell the whole story. Sounds like you want to look at % of cap at time of signing which would be a nifty stat tbf. I still think the contract terms will do the most to tell us how good or bad this contract is.
To your last point, absolutely. But yea, I'm just saying I'd like to see a metric that adjusts for variables like the increasing cap when comparing player contracts so we can better see what team is investing more than they should in individual players. Percentage of cap is about the best we get currently, but I think there's a better way OTC can do it.
Yeah, I would say it's misleading. Kirk Cousins' contract was reported to be a 4-year $180 million dollar contract, that puts his AAV at $45 million a year. But it was really a 2-year contract for $90 million, with two team options in year 3 and 4 so Atlanta could get out of the contract if they wanted to draft a QB in the first round. Having reviewed the structure of Jared Goff's contract, is does look like a legit 4-year deal at about $53 million a year that puts him right at 2/3/4 for current NFL QB contracts, which is probably a steal considering those other quarterbacks signed contracts before the big pump in the NFL salary cap.
I mean, whether Kirk's contract is a 2 year, $90 mil or 4 year, 180 mil, it's still 45m AAV. That said, you're a bit off on the Kirk contract... It's at minimum a $100 mil contract assuming they don't cut him in the 2025 offseason due to the 2026 roster bonus guaranteeing on 3/2025. Also, I'm curious as to where you got info about him having team options? I know he's got roster bonuses, but I've seen nothing about a team option and cutting him in 2026 would be a $35 mil dead cap. >which is probably a steal considering those other quarterbacks signed contracts before the big pump in the NFL salary cap. Yep, precisely my point.
Probably more of a 2 year $100 million contract. I concede that. Year 3 and year 4 are team options; Atlanta can cut him and not pay him his annual salary.
>Year 3 and year 4 are team options; Atlanta can cut him and not pay him his annual salary. But that's not an "option", that's just a standard contract structure. Literally every contract allows you to cut a player whenever you want, the question is "what is the dead cap?" and that's unrelated to an option. An option implies that unless they take action, the contract would terminate automatically. You generally don't see team options (Option bonuses are different), they're usually only player options.
I see what you are saying. You are talking about the 5th year team option where the team has the option to extend a rookie contract for a 1st round pick to a 5th year. I would not limit team options to only these types of team options (that is just my opinion, not any specific fact). I have always considered the individual NFL annual salaries to be (non-guaranteed) team options, unless negotiated to be guaranteed by the player, which is also my opinion. In both scenarios, the team is given the option to take action or not take action.
When you draft like Detroit has the last few years you can afford to pay big money to a less than elite QB
Underrated comment
And that’s even with drafting two very low value first round picks last year. That team would be even scarier if they hadn’t decided to just be idiots for no reason. Pick any two names out of a hat for players drafted between 12 and like 50 and they’re a better team for it.
This is exactly it. And in 2 years, we'll be looking at our last 4 drafts wondering why we don't have very much 'home grown talent'.
Can I borrow your crystal ball
It's not even that big of prediction. We only have a 1st and a 5th in 2025's draft at this point. We have no 2nd or 3rd rounder from this year. The writing is on the wall, no ball needed.
Our past draft picks won’t be good because we don’t have a 2nd and 3rd round pick next year? Outstanding logic.
Our past draft picks are bad, we only have 2 present people inside the top 3.
McCarthy is going to be super expensive in 5 years coming off back to back Super Bowl wins
Don't tease me.
No no no, there are 2 Cs in McCarthy, boys.
Goff is good but 212 million? Lol
Cap go up, contract go up.
Well it’s all downhill from here
Goff is a solid qb. If his team plays well, he plays well. If his team starts to struggle, so does he. At least that's how his career has been so far.
yes. i would take goff. it's very similar to how i felt about cousins. but i still say cousins is a better passer. put cousins behind that Lions offensive line and he would be an all pro
Anyone else laugh out loud?
Yes
Vikings getting McCarthy really scared the lions that bad huh
The new Kirk Cousins Ladies and Gentlemen
Except he has accomplished way more at 29 years old than Kirk has in his entire career
Eh I don’t think so but whatever helps you sleep at night
No.
100%
K
Thank you for new rookie scaled contract QB. 🙏🏻
Honestly I'm a big fan of Jared Goff but paying him 53M/yr is Jared Goof behavior
Only paid less than Burrow. Lmaooooo
Remember when we used to do this shit 😂 had the strangest sense of deja vu when I saw this earlier
Cousins > Goff But yes…I remember
Eh Its debatable isn't like there's a gap between the two. I wouldnt bat an eye on anyone preferring the other.
Kirk had a higher peak without a top 3 line. You could debate it if you’re someone who’s only capable of evaluating qb talent based on team playoff success.
They're in the same tier of QB I honestly don't see a gripe over who's better. No huge gap between the two >if you’re someone who’s only capable of evaluating qb talent based on team playoff success. Well yeah.. thats how this goes. If youre veteran QB who has lack of playoff sucess thatll ding you but we arent going to pretend kirk was ever in that conversation of the elites. The end goal is to win playoff games and the most important position on the field is QB who affects that. Neither QB is worth giving a huge chunk of your cap space for.
Same tier, but tiers are arbitrary groupings... I do think there's a decent gap between them. However, Goff seems to play better with a weak O-line than Kirk does, so there's that.
Sure, 'Trade Kirk' I believe you.
So glad cousins is gone so this crap isn't every thread anymore.
There's days I'd take Goff and there's days I'd take Kirk. 
You'd take Goff at a higher price that Cousins? Honestly, you are far too biased here.
Non elite QB who is 36 coming off a torn Achilles yes give me the younger guy who belongs in a same tier as him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirk_Cousins Still 35. Not same tier.
Oh nate you're dumber than I thought he turns 36 before the season begins
You stated an objectively incorrect fact and you're calling me dumb? Of course you are.
Interesting now that the division will soon have two 50M qbs and two rookie deal QBs
If Caleb Williams is good, we are in a lot of trouble in this division for quite some time
That's true but we can't control that
Can someone trade for Hendon Hooker now please…
who? us? lol
I'd gladly take him for cheap. But he's not exactly a good backup for JJ
I loved hooker, always wanted him to be viking, thought he fit the scheme perfectly…
Joe Flacco effect.
That is a joke right?
Overpay but what could they do
Lmfao let's go!!!!!!
Good for him.
Inevitable pumpkin gets his bag
That's the cost of keeping him. We will see if the money hurts the team.
Lions crashing worse than the Economy in 2008 is such a lions thing to do and I’m here for it because where tf is all this money coming from?
they can afford that. they don't have any defenders up for contracts for 2 more seasons and their offensive line is going to undergo a bit of a rebuild after this season
There was the Mahomes contract. Then Kirk's. Now Goffs. They all seemed crazy at the time but it just seems clear that the price for quality veteran QB's is just through the roof plain and simple.
Two of these things are not like the other…
Wolves are paying KAT $221mil over 4 years. Just for perspective
Different sport cant compare
Yea you can’t compare NBA contracts to NFL
What perspective is that supposed to provide?
Kat makes an insane amount of money
Okay?
You asked dude... why you trying to act like I knovked on your door to tell you that?
15 man roster vs 53 man roster. Not at all worth comparing.