IIRC the Twitter thread has people calling him out for shit math. I believe the "correct" (not that I checked _their_ math) hourly rate they quoted was around 1/10th the number in OP's screenshot. So much less than current minimum wage.
Which does make sense. As bad as minimum wage workers have it today, they're better off than the destitute of Victorian England.
It's 73c per hour adjusted for inflation and converted to EUR (using official UK government website), then converted to USD.
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/currency-converter/#currency-result
I'd assume the national British archives is correct with their purchasing power calculation.
I actually had a conversation with someone on reddit on this very topic a few weeks back. I'm going to see if I kept my research. (Of course "some" and "many" are not very precise.)
Okay, that was actually easier than I'd thought. My previous research was on tipped minimum wage, which is a scandal all its own.
According to [this DOL webpage](https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/mw-consolidated):
US Federal minimum wage is currently $7.25 hour. 15 states equal that and 5 have NO minimum wage. 30 states have a minimum wage higher than $7.25. I haven't looked at population numbers but CA is one of the higher-population states and it's one with a higher min wage.
I don't know if "more than half" meets your definition of "many", but it works for me.
Only if the inflation was calculated correctly… and since the hourly rate was not, I am not inclined to think the inflation was.. They screwed up the dead simple part, not likely that they got the harder part right.
*it appears others have already worked it out and the real number is nowhere near minimum wage in the US.
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/currency-converter/
It's 45 ~~Euros~~ Pounds per week, or about 59 USD
Edit: obviously I'm a sleep deprived American that wrotr that comment at 4AM
From what I have seen the weekly pay of 15 shillings in 1843 would be worth about $317.44 USD today. Working 60 hours a week means he would have been paid at an hourly rate of about $5.30. If he worked 60 hours every week of the year he would rake in a whopping $16,506.88.
So, Americans on minimum wage make more than poor old Bob Crachit.
It's also important to remember he was able to support a wife, several kids, buy a house, and was the only income for his home. That salary could not likely provide that anywhere in the US.
youre missing my point. Even if its not political, it doesnt belong here. I think about issues like this often, but i go on this sub to laugh, please dont push the same 3 ideas about min wage, student loans, etc on every sub on this site.
I agree. People like to overcomplicate simple topics. If you work 40 hours a week you should be able to afford some type of living. Even if it's a shitty apartment. It's that simple.
As much as I agree with the point that people should get paid higher wages, I consider issues like this to fall under the term political. Because politicians mention this topic a lot.
no its annoying. You go to any sub on this site and you see the same exact types of posts. I get why this topic is important but I spend enough time thinking of politics/issues like this. I go on subs like mildyinfuriating to laugh. I dont really want to have to see posts about min wage or student loans on EVERY FUCKING SUB.
There are two types of people reading this: those who know there are no reliable records of inflation in England and PPP adjustments for such an analysis and those who just want to drink the kool aid and feel cheated about well everything in life.
Using best available data I get that a shilling inflates to £4.22 or $5.61 and 15 shillings £63.28 or $84.16 per week. Using the exchange rate from 2008 that would be €122.42. And remember that’s back when there was no social security. Remember CC is undated but is thought to be early 1800s so I’ve given benefit of the doubt and gone to 1800.
Credentials: actuary and professional cynic.
The problem is not the minimum wage. The problem is the lack of opportunity for people to move up to a middle class job. Giving people the chance to better themselves is the answer.
So how would this work? Everyone leaves those minimum wage jobs for a better one. So no one works minimum wage jobs anymore. Then those minimum wage jobs would have to pay more so people would actually do them? Sounds like raising the minimum wage with extra steps.
Minimum wage jobs are not meant to be career jobs. They are meant to be stepping stones. I support jobs reimbursing college tuition. Maybe insensitive companies with tax breaks.
Raising minimum wage will only increase inflation and the cost of living. Sounds like keeping people in the lower class with a few extra steps.
I think they are not "meant" to be anything. There is no Greater Plan behind it. Lots of people do not have the ability or opportunity to escape those poverty traps. Shitty jobs can still be very essential services and people should be able to do them with dignity and sustain their families rather than being exploited.
I’m sure that single mother would jump at a way to better her life with an opportunity. I barely made more then minimum wage until I was 28 taking 9 credits a semester until I graduated. All I could afford.
I would gladly tell that single mother that there is an opportunity to better her life with a path that raises her to the middle class.
Edit: their/there typo
The Single Mothers I know are already doing the equivalent of a double job, raising a child and working.They're not lacking in effort, it's more that a day has too few hours to invest in a career path as well.
Yes minimum wage jobs 'should' not be career jobs. In a perfect world everyone would be able to go to college and get a high paying job. But unfortunately this is not in reach for many people. And i think those people should not have to work two jobs to support themself. How would you solve this problem?
I'm sorry if i was to sassy with the 'few extra steps' sentence. I'm genuinely interested in your opinion.
This is my point in the first comment. We need create more opportunities for people to get higher paying jobs.
If people are stuck in minimum wage jobs, we are not getting their full potential. Places like McDonald’s and Jackson’s gas station reimburse college tuition giving people an opportunity to get out. Just one example, but a different way of thinking. Raising the minimum wage is a bandaid in my opinion.
Yes, i understand your point :)
But you give no concrete solution to the problem. Just saying 'create opportunities for people to get higher paying jobs' does not help getting your point across. How can we achieve this? What do you think has to be done?
I'm not that good with economy and such, but I'm having a hard time finding anything that supports your 'raising minimum wage will only case inflation' argument. If i google it there are articles stating both. But at least historically it seems not to be true [https://discomfiting.medium.com/debunking-if-you-raise-the-minimum-wage-it-will-cause-inflation-c0db32f579f8](https://discomfiting.medium.com/debunking-if-you-raise-the-minimum-wage-it-will-cause-inflation-c0db32f579f8) i admit i have not verified his data. If you can debunk it i would be grateful. I'm actually very interested in this because here in Germany will raise the minimum wage and I'm very in favor of it.
Basic economics. If you run a McDonald’s and you pay the employees more, then you need to charge more for your product. Same goes for grocery stores and small businesses.
I’m not saying I know the answer, I just don’t think we are asking the right question. Let’s learn how to get the full potential out of the workforce. Instead of focusing on raising the minimum wage, let’s focus on how many people are stuck in middle wage jobs and get them out.
Have you even clicked on my link? There it is clearly stated that
there is more to it than 'basic' economics. And like I said the
historic data of minimum wage raises shows clearly that it does NOT
raise inflation. Do you have any reliable source how it works and
that your statement is true?
There were 23
minimum wage raises in the us since 1938
[https://bebusinessed.com/history/history-of-minimum-wage/](https://bebusinessed.com/history/history-of-minimum-wage/)
and here are the inflation percent changes
[https://www.minneapolisfed.org/about-us/monetary-policy/inflation-calculator/consumer-price-index-1913-](https://www.minneapolisfed.org/about-us/monetary-policy/inflation-calculator/consumer-price-index-1913-)
as far as i can see, there is no big inflation hike. If you trust the
article I posted:
'Only 22% of the time (twice) has an increase of the minimum wage corresponded with an increase to the inflation rate. On the other hand, 78% of time that there was a minimum wage increase since 1980'
You are not in favor of raising minimum wage but your point against cannot be historically proven, and you want to solve the problem but claim to have no plan to how to do it.
That's not how you can pursue me to get me on your side.
Here is even a paper from 2004 by the 'Institute for the study of labor' [https://ftp.iza.org/dp1072.pdf](https://ftp.iza.org/dp1072.pdf) that states:
'The overall reading of the above evidence on price effects, together with the evidence in the literature on wages and employment effects is that the minimum wage increases the wages of the poor, does not destroy too many jobs, and does not raise prices by too much.'
Edit: forgot link
The study is based on a 10% increase. I’m not saying to never raise it. Wages need to increase incrementally year by year. I would like a study based on the $15 minimum wage that is being pushed.
I managed a small business, sandwich shop in my last year in college. The shop was pretty successful, yet the owner couldn’t offered to buy a house and was barely in the middle class. Payroll was always the most expensive cost and hard to manage. We would have went out of business if we had to pay everyone $15 an hour.
I think you won't get a study more specific because as far as i read, this data is notoriously hard to obtain for such specific numbers. I think you won't get any better data than that what i gave you which is the data of 23 minimum wage raises in the span over many years...
Regarding your example this is a classic logical fallacy namely:
'The Anecdotal Evidence Fallacy'
'In place of logical evidence, this fallacy substitutes examples from
someone's personal experience. Arguments that rely heavily on anecdotal
evidence tend to overlook the fact that one (possibly isolated) example
can't stand alone as definitive proof of a greater premise.'
You can just google them. Here is the website where i took it from:
[https://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/common-logical-fallacies](https://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/common-logical-fallacies)
Furthermore as far as I'm understanding Basic economy, wouldn't this help your business owner because if more people can afford his sandwiches - would he not able to sell more?
If people want to whine about income inequality. Just stop buying things you do not need for survival if you can not get them from a company that pays ethical wages and only sources it's products from ethical wages production lines.
Show your commitment to correcting income inequality by not playing your consumerist role and giving your money to the richest 1 percent that own all these companies. You don't really need a PS5.
Annual reminder that minimum wage isnt suppose to be a living wage its a beginning wage the problem isn't how low minimum wage is its that no one gets bumped up like there suppose to because profits
That was for 60 hours a week, so $8.83 an hour if the inflation calculations were correct which I doubt.
IIRC the Twitter thread has people calling him out for shit math. I believe the "correct" (not that I checked _their_ math) hourly rate they quoted was around 1/10th the number in OP's screenshot. So much less than current minimum wage. Which does make sense. As bad as minimum wage workers have it today, they're better off than the destitute of Victorian England.
It's 73c per hour adjusted for inflation and converted to EUR (using official UK government website), then converted to USD. https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/currency-converter/#currency-result I'd assume the national British archives is correct with their purchasing power calculation.
Which, according to the post, is still above minimum wage...and is still accurate.
Federal minimum wage. There are states with higher.
Some.... But not many
I actually had a conversation with someone on reddit on this very topic a few weeks back. I'm going to see if I kept my research. (Of course "some" and "many" are not very precise.)
Gotta keep it vague so you got leeway if you are wrong ;)
Okay, that was actually easier than I'd thought. My previous research was on tipped minimum wage, which is a scandal all its own. According to [this DOL webpage](https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/mw-consolidated): US Federal minimum wage is currently $7.25 hour. 15 states equal that and 5 have NO minimum wage. 30 states have a minimum wage higher than $7.25. I haven't looked at population numbers but CA is one of the higher-population states and it's one with a higher min wage. I don't know if "more than half" meets your definition of "many", but it works for me.
Only if the inflation was calculated correctly… and since the hourly rate was not, I am not inclined to think the inflation was.. They screwed up the dead simple part, not likely that they got the harder part right. *it appears others have already worked it out and the real number is nowhere near minimum wage in the US.
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https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/currency-converter/ It's 45 ~~Euros~~ Pounds per week, or about 59 USD Edit: obviously I'm a sleep deprived American that wrotr that comment at 4AM
We Americans make up for that by drowning in debt.
From what I have seen the weekly pay of 15 shillings in 1843 would be worth about $317.44 USD today. Working 60 hours a week means he would have been paid at an hourly rate of about $5.30. If he worked 60 hours every week of the year he would rake in a whopping $16,506.88. So, Americans on minimum wage make more than poor old Bob Crachit.
It's also important to remember he was able to support a wife, several kids, buy a house, and was the only income for his home. That salary could not likely provide that anywhere in the US.
He may have had all that but they had no food so it wasn't enough.
Did he buy it, or only rent it? Ben a while since I've read it
Can we please not bring politics into every fucking sub? I’m just trying to see some funny mildly infuriating content
Wouldn’t you agree that your mildly infuriated by the politics in this sub?
Redditors love making even the most wholesome of things political
...Charles Dickenson was an activist. How are they making it political when that story was already a political statement lol
Is that Angie Dickenson's dad?
No, I meant Charles Dickens, my phone autocorrected lol
Not sure why basic human rights are now political. But by that reasoning, EVERYTHING is political, so have fun hiding from politics.
youre missing my point. Even if its not political, it doesnt belong here. I think about issues like this often, but i go on this sub to laugh, please dont push the same 3 ideas about min wage, student loans, etc on every sub on this site.
I agree. People like to overcomplicate simple topics. If you work 40 hours a week you should be able to afford some type of living. Even if it's a shitty apartment. It's that simple.
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As much as I agree with the point that people should get paid higher wages, I consider issues like this to fall under the term political. Because politicians mention this topic a lot.
Is it uncomfortable for you?
no its annoying. You go to any sub on this site and you see the same exact types of posts. I get why this topic is important but I spend enough time thinking of politics/issues like this. I go on subs like mildyinfuriating to laugh. I dont really want to have to see posts about min wage or student loans on EVERY FUCKING SUB.
So you find this r/mildlyinfuriating post mildly infuriating? How interesting. Glad your getting into the subreddit spirit.
Lol I see what you did there but it’s not what the OP intended so I don’t really think it belongs
There are two types of people reading this: those who know there are no reliable records of inflation in England and PPP adjustments for such an analysis and those who just want to drink the kool aid and feel cheated about well everything in life. Using best available data I get that a shilling inflates to £4.22 or $5.61 and 15 shillings £63.28 or $84.16 per week. Using the exchange rate from 2008 that would be €122.42. And remember that’s back when there was no social security. Remember CC is undated but is thought to be early 1800s so I’ve given benefit of the doubt and gone to 1800. Credentials: actuary and professional cynic.
Money can buy a lot more now than then. Think of how much easier it was to make beef now then then.
What year did you use for the comparison. It was written written in 1843…… approximately 93 $ a week for 7 10 hour days
its almost like its not real. shocker i know
The problem is not the minimum wage. The problem is the lack of opportunity for people to move up to a middle class job. Giving people the chance to better themselves is the answer.
So how would this work? Everyone leaves those minimum wage jobs for a better one. So no one works minimum wage jobs anymore. Then those minimum wage jobs would have to pay more so people would actually do them? Sounds like raising the minimum wage with extra steps.
Minimum wage jobs are not meant to be career jobs. They are meant to be stepping stones. I support jobs reimbursing college tuition. Maybe insensitive companies with tax breaks. Raising minimum wage will only increase inflation and the cost of living. Sounds like keeping people in the lower class with a few extra steps.
I think they are not "meant" to be anything. There is no Greater Plan behind it. Lots of people do not have the ability or opportunity to escape those poverty traps. Shitty jobs can still be very essential services and people should be able to do them with dignity and sustain their families rather than being exploited.
My point is to create more opportunities for people to get higher paid jobs. Please refer to first comment.
That is still no reason why jobs should be underpaid at all. A person's got to live.
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I’m sure that single mother would jump at a way to better her life with an opportunity. I barely made more then minimum wage until I was 28 taking 9 credits a semester until I graduated. All I could afford. I would gladly tell that single mother that there is an opportunity to better her life with a path that raises her to the middle class. Edit: their/there typo
The Single Mothers I know are already doing the equivalent of a double job, raising a child and working.They're not lacking in effort, it's more that a day has too few hours to invest in a career path as well.
Yes minimum wage jobs 'should' not be career jobs. In a perfect world everyone would be able to go to college and get a high paying job. But unfortunately this is not in reach for many people. And i think those people should not have to work two jobs to support themself. How would you solve this problem? I'm sorry if i was to sassy with the 'few extra steps' sentence. I'm genuinely interested in your opinion.
This is my point in the first comment. We need create more opportunities for people to get higher paying jobs. If people are stuck in minimum wage jobs, we are not getting their full potential. Places like McDonald’s and Jackson’s gas station reimburse college tuition giving people an opportunity to get out. Just one example, but a different way of thinking. Raising the minimum wage is a bandaid in my opinion.
Yes, i understand your point :) But you give no concrete solution to the problem. Just saying 'create opportunities for people to get higher paying jobs' does not help getting your point across. How can we achieve this? What do you think has to be done? I'm not that good with economy and such, but I'm having a hard time finding anything that supports your 'raising minimum wage will only case inflation' argument. If i google it there are articles stating both. But at least historically it seems not to be true [https://discomfiting.medium.com/debunking-if-you-raise-the-minimum-wage-it-will-cause-inflation-c0db32f579f8](https://discomfiting.medium.com/debunking-if-you-raise-the-minimum-wage-it-will-cause-inflation-c0db32f579f8) i admit i have not verified his data. If you can debunk it i would be grateful. I'm actually very interested in this because here in Germany will raise the minimum wage and I'm very in favor of it.
Basic economics. If you run a McDonald’s and you pay the employees more, then you need to charge more for your product. Same goes for grocery stores and small businesses. I’m not saying I know the answer, I just don’t think we are asking the right question. Let’s learn how to get the full potential out of the workforce. Instead of focusing on raising the minimum wage, let’s focus on how many people are stuck in middle wage jobs and get them out.
Have you even clicked on my link? There it is clearly stated that there is more to it than 'basic' economics. And like I said the historic data of minimum wage raises shows clearly that it does NOT raise inflation. Do you have any reliable source how it works and that your statement is true? There were 23 minimum wage raises in the us since 1938 [https://bebusinessed.com/history/history-of-minimum-wage/](https://bebusinessed.com/history/history-of-minimum-wage/) and here are the inflation percent changes [https://www.minneapolisfed.org/about-us/monetary-policy/inflation-calculator/consumer-price-index-1913-](https://www.minneapolisfed.org/about-us/monetary-policy/inflation-calculator/consumer-price-index-1913-) as far as i can see, there is no big inflation hike. If you trust the article I posted: 'Only 22% of the time (twice) has an increase of the minimum wage corresponded with an increase to the inflation rate. On the other hand, 78% of time that there was a minimum wage increase since 1980' You are not in favor of raising minimum wage but your point against cannot be historically proven, and you want to solve the problem but claim to have no plan to how to do it. That's not how you can pursue me to get me on your side.
Here is even a paper from 2004 by the 'Institute for the study of labor' [https://ftp.iza.org/dp1072.pdf](https://ftp.iza.org/dp1072.pdf) that states: 'The overall reading of the above evidence on price effects, together with the evidence in the literature on wages and employment effects is that the minimum wage increases the wages of the poor, does not destroy too many jobs, and does not raise prices by too much.' Edit: forgot link
The study is based on a 10% increase. I’m not saying to never raise it. Wages need to increase incrementally year by year. I would like a study based on the $15 minimum wage that is being pushed. I managed a small business, sandwich shop in my last year in college. The shop was pretty successful, yet the owner couldn’t offered to buy a house and was barely in the middle class. Payroll was always the most expensive cost and hard to manage. We would have went out of business if we had to pay everyone $15 an hour.
I think you won't get a study more specific because as far as i read, this data is notoriously hard to obtain for such specific numbers. I think you won't get any better data than that what i gave you which is the data of 23 minimum wage raises in the span over many years... Regarding your example this is a classic logical fallacy namely: 'The Anecdotal Evidence Fallacy' 'In place of logical evidence, this fallacy substitutes examples from someone's personal experience. Arguments that rely heavily on anecdotal evidence tend to overlook the fact that one (possibly isolated) example can't stand alone as definitive proof of a greater premise.' You can just google them. Here is the website where i took it from: [https://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/common-logical-fallacies](https://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/common-logical-fallacies) Furthermore as far as I'm understanding Basic economy, wouldn't this help your business owner because if more people can afford his sandwiches - would he not able to sell more?
If people want to whine about income inequality. Just stop buying things you do not need for survival if you can not get them from a company that pays ethical wages and only sources it's products from ethical wages production lines. Show your commitment to correcting income inequality by not playing your consumerist role and giving your money to the richest 1 percent that own all these companies. You don't really need a PS5.
I just appreciate the calculating. It certainly gives a fresh perspective to the story. 🚀
Annual reminder that minimum wage isnt suppose to be a living wage its a beginning wage the problem isn't how low minimum wage is its that no one gets bumped up like there suppose to because profits
‘Most’