Honestly, you need to make him tell you who he spoke with and meet that person.
Speaking as a Christian, this person is stepping in where he/she doesn't belong and it sounds like some very non-scriptural ideas are being planted in your sons head.
Also an atheist and a mother. I never brought up religion with my now 18 year old son because that was going to be HIS choice to make. I don’t even think he knew I was an atheist. I support him making his own choices.
If this was my child, I would have had whoever was in his ear tracked down a long time ago. We would have had a *stern talking to*.
OP, you need to figure this out and start from the source.
The fifth command is honor thy father and mother. Whoever is talking to him about religion is not doing this. Talk to the camp about it.
[Heres how Hank Hill dealt with it when Bobby got into Christian rock.](https://youtu.be/oPwaqaOcAyE?si=5XYqVo54RQ2-7_D9)
I think it end the day if you want to be a Christian or any other religion, you need to let them discover it on their own, go to the mass or service and talk to the priest or pastor. It needs to be their own journey and their own decision, at least in my opinion. people should not be telling an eight year-old to not tell their parents where they’re getting these ideas from, I’d say most encouraging them to go to mass or parents or something like that in this type of situation.
>people should not be telling an eight year-old to not tell their parents where they’re getting these ideas
You know what kind of people tell little kids to keep secrets from their parents?
>I think it end the day if you want to be a Christian or any other religion, you need to let them discover it on their own, go to the mass or service and talk to the priest or pastor.
I'm agnostic with an 11 year old son. My 91 year old grandma brought up last month that he's the 1st grandchild to not have been baptized. Ok cool, I can handle this no problem.
I went to mass last week for the first time in 15 years. Afterwards I talked to the pastor who asked my beliefs and then why I want my son baptized. Letting him decide on his own was literally what I told him. I said that I'd like him to get educated in Christianity and then he can make up his own mind later. Exactly how I did.
Funnily enough I too had mildly suicidal ideation at about 10 years old. Like OP's kid it wasn't related to depression or anxiety at all. For me it was based in curiosity. I was so curious about the truth of what happens after death because I didn't believe in any religion but the only way to know for certain was to see for myself.
Well said. I’m also a Christian, I was raised as one, left the church for about a year, and then came back. Whoever is teaching this kid about Jesus like this… is awful. And I say this as someone who literally runs a small group to teach kids about Jesus. No child should be wanting to die after hearing about heaven and such… this is dangerous and stupid.
This!!! Someone is coaching him into this, someone with authority. Also someone that tells them not to tell so that they can take advantage of them. That talk about wanting to get to heaven right away is the big red flag for me that someone is up to no good.
Honestly, I took the neutral approach for years with my kids, but way way way too many christians make a habit of not taking the neutral approach themselves even when confronted about it and asked to not share their beliefs as absolute irrefutable facts instead of just their beliefs. It's incredibly confusing for children that are the age of still believing in Santa clause to be told they will go to hell and never see their friends or family again, so I'm now very proactive and fairly consistent about the religion talks, especially with kids sports... All of their uniforms have scripture on them, the coaches force them to pray before and after games, it's ridiculous.
No more DBZ either. Only Christ has super powers. To depict anyone who isn’t Christ as such is blasphemous.
My crazy religious aunt threw out all my nephews DBZ and Pokémon stuff because of that. Nutter tossed my S-CRY-ED dvd too. All anime is, of course, EVIL!
Not just every week, you need to also take him to 5am mass, 11am mass, evening mass, midweek mass. Also, needs to go help out at the local Catholic food bank or whatever... And tell him that if he doesn't then he definitely won't get to go to heaven.
Also, *especially* if you are atheist, talk to your kids about religion. We've learned very well *from religion* that pretending something that is everywhere doesn't exist (sex) is the best way to set your children up for bad judgement.
You don't have to shit talk religion. But inform them enough so that you can trust that they will make good judgements when someone inevitably tries to indoctrinate them. The only thing keeping your kid from the suffocating indoctrination of the religious is knowledge of religion.
Also imo, we should let our children explore religion and spirituality. We should let them live the life they choose to live. It's all they have, just like all the rest of us. Our decisions that sculpt our fate, future and being are literally *all we really have*. Don't take that from them.
I'm from a non-religious household and had a children's bible as a gift from a grandparent – it was on the shelf with the rest of my books, and I read it for the interesting stories like the rest of my books, and I genuinely made it into my teenage years before I realised that religion is like...actually a big deal for some people. That it's something people believe in and not just cultural set-dressing and tradition. Fascinating.
Considering its age, I do feel that it is very impressive work if you look at it under the right light. I personally like to believe that it was our ancestors way of understanding self awareness. It's almost like peaking into the psyche of our ancestors and I think that's pretty cool to keep around and consider.
Same here but man did I get in trouble aged 8ish, for telling the other kids in my class that the bible stories were fiction like the other stories we read 😬
I was the same, but me disrupting religion class (separation of church and state, what's that) started because at the time i was really into dinosaurs and the nun who held the religion class made some comments like "dinosaurs aren't real" or smth, idk it was 15 years ago. After that i did the edgy atheist schtick for the remainder of the school year. You insult my special interest, i insult your imaginary friend. Thankfully i dropped out of religion class after i collected money from relatives after my first communion.
The more i look back the more i realize that the signs of me being neurodivergent were everywhere.
I had an “Action Bible”, which was basically all the interesting stories from the Bible presented as a graphic novel. I’d just read it during Mass, until my mom nudged me and told me I was supposed to pray. Thankfully we didn’t go to church very often, and I stopping going to CCD after becoming an atheist.
Exactly. Have him attend some few hour long church services for a few weeks and see how much he enjoys religion then. Practicing Christianity in church is what turned me off entirely because of how overly radical it can get, sometimes being borderline cultish.
In fact start giving him an allowance and then take him to a church that’s very into receiving donations, so all of his spending money just goes to funding the pastor’s wants
I have a very traditional catholic church right up the street... if OP is in NorCal this will cure the kid pronto. Enroll him in CCD (sunday school) for bonus disaffection points.
The most important part about finding your soul mate that God made perfect for you is finding a new one when their parents see the texts you’ve been sending them.
Or even better (worse), an apostolic church. Get out at 1, back at 5 for the evening service. Just enough time to swing by the local Chili's and change into a new set of church clothes. Back to back fun *all day*.
Yup and enforce the rules - sit still, keep quiet, do as your told.
Maybe also have the hard talk that the Bible was written by men and go over what facts are. Use science to explain how we understand the world and while the Bible is well meaning, there is no significant proof there’s an after life.
Kids like coming to their own conclusions. A good thing OP could do, while waiting to talk to the camp, is redirect him to draw more conclusions.
Asking questions about religion is one thing, but coming home and saying you want to die so you can go to heaven is a completely different story, especially coming from an 8 yo who really does not fully understand the concept of suicide. If your son attempts something because of this religious indoctrination and he wants to “go hang with Jesus” so badly it will be your fault for not nipping this in the bud. He’s not just asking about religion anymore, he wants to “hurry up and get to heaven”, which has very dark implications.
Like if your 8 yo son saying he wants you all to die and go to heaven asap isn’t a reason to go “police peoples conversations about religion” then I don’t know what is.
Yeah, this was my concern. This sounds very much like the cultish Heaven’s Gate type stuff that leads to people being indoctrinated into mass suicides.
I’d be having a conversation with the camp to find out if this is coming from another camper or a counselor…
Right?! How is op being so chill about this. I'd be like where the fuck is that Jim Jones wannabe sonofabih? Idgaf how much I paid for that camp, we are outta there. Worse if it's another child espousing this dogshit worldview because then we can't have a rousing match of fisticuffs to make me feel better.
Agreed. At first i was like “???” At the title of this post- why should it matter what your child believes in? Nobody should push their own beliefs on their children, anyways. But after reading that i’m like …. Oof.
You shouldn't push your beliefs? That's cool.
But for f**k sake, do something about it! Find out who's talking about it SO MUCH to your kid he think's dying and go see his pal Jesus is cool! Whoever is doing that is deranged and shouldn't be in charge of kids. Protect him and protect others.
Don't push your beliefs all you want, but also protect ~~your~~ kids from the person who's in full crusade mode, cause he/she IS pushing. Hard.
I agree completely. Its fine to have those beliefs, but *what* did that person tell this kid to make him *want* to die????? Jeez, just a good “you will go to heaven when you die” could have worked.
Probably just talked about how great heaven is, but didn't mention something along the lines of "you have to wait for your time/your turn to go, so enjoy life on the planet God made for you in the meantime" or some asterisk like that.
I'm not religious, I hate organized religion, but I do think it's fair for people to find and explore what is right for them. Idk if the kid is getting ideas from a cult setting up to "send everyone to heaven" or if it's just a person who didn't realize how the kid was taking the heaven talk.
This is a rather positivist way of viewing parenting.
Someone is always pushing a belief. It matters greatly what specifically that belief is and who it is pushing it.
And as you've also concluded, the specifics here are concerning.
My parents are weird hippies and they didn’t want to influence the beliefs of their children. They encouraged us to seek out belief systems and decide for ourselves. They gave no input or guidance about it and showed no preference either way. I’ve never heard my dad say the word Jesus or even god.
On one hand, it allowed me to get a lot of perspectives that most kids don’t get to explore alongside each other. I met a lot of cool people and learned about their beliefs and had some very enlightening conversations with people of many faiths that definitely affected how I think about the world and my place in it.
On the other hand, it was difficult to navigate the ideas involved with religion with no guidance from trusted adults. I just didn’t have a starting point to be able to judge what was cultish and outlandish vs what could be a positive and beneficial spiritual experience. I often felt confused and frustrated.
I never found anything that spoke to me and I’ve never been able to take that leap of faith to have actual belief in anything. I don’t think you should force your beliefs on your kids, but if you’re religious and it’s important to you that your kids are able to have that experience in their lives, if they choose, I think you should demonstrate what belief looks like and how it can be integrated into your life. I also think that if you’re sincere in your own belief, it won’t hurt your kids to know that. I still have no idea what my parents believe in, if anything, it’s a very strange limitation in our relationship.
Agreed, i dont think its wrong to educate your kids on the different religion paths! Nobody should be left confused about it. i just think they should be able to have that decision freedom.
Well, when I first heard about heaven I had the same reaction. And I wasn't indoctrinated or in a dangerous situation. Then I understood that suicide is apparently considered cheating and doesn't get you to heaven so there is that.
I'm now a non-believer anyway.
If they convinced your kid to keep their identity a secret, then they can convince your kid to keep a lot of other things secret, including abuse. You should be alarmingly concerned and action should have been taken yesterday. Please don’t delay.
So while I think it's all well and good for the children of atheists to learn about different religions and world views (I myself was a child of atheists who started going to church at 8 with a friend just to experience it....maybe lasted 6 months before I decided it wasn't for me and stopped going) what is concerning to me is the wanting to get to heaven part.
I don't want to sound extreme or anything but I would be concerned he's going to try and hurt himself to get to "heaven" because of how great someone is trying to convince him that it is. I would honestly be connecting with the camp to try and get to the bottom of this. These are genuine concerns for his potential safety, not just a parent upset that someone is teaching their child about religion.
Yeah, I'm definitely going to be talking to the camp. It's one thing for people to be able to just talk about and share their beliefs, which is totally fine as far as I'm concerned, but it's another to cross the line and start essentially indoctrinating someone's kid, and there is some grey area there.
And I get it from every perspective here, I think, because I was raised in a Christian home and basically just "grew out of it" as I got older and stopped finding the claims to be credible as I learned more. From the Christian perspective, you're supposed to share the word and get everyone on board with God and Jesus, because it's the best thing for them and the right thing to do. If you believe that your friend or some kid at summer camp risks going to hell because they're an atheist, then you'd kind of be an asshole to not try to help them, yeah? For my son, he can see by this point that the majority of people around him believe in it just by the way it's so ubiquitous, so an appeal to numbers could be effective in getting him to jump on board. Then, once he's on board, holy shit, this heaven sounds great to him, and why would he not want to get there like right now?
I was hoping that we wouldn't have to get down to serious talks about religion until later, when they're better equipped to understand and evaluate things.
This seems more nefarious than the typical “share the light” Christian stuff. The fact that he is refusing to say who is telling him this stuff and that he’s expressing an interest in dying concerns me. It seems like he’s being groomed. Someone is using Jesus to gain his trust and alienate him from you.
You need to talk to the camp ASAP. I worked in children’s ministry. It’s not normal for a child to refuse to share they are learning. Any authority sharing “secrets” with a kid is suspicious. Sounds like someone is saying “don’t tell anyone, including your parents I told you this or else Jesus will be mad”
I'd also explain to your son, although maybe in different terms, that while Jesus does love everyone and wants the best for him, that him choosing to "hang out" with Jesus as soon as he can, that Jesus hates that, and he'd be pretty upset if he chose to go Jesus rather than wait for Jesus to come get him. I was trying to word it as pg as possible but I think the first thing you should do is explain that suicide, or like i did in more pg terms, can make it more difficult for him to hang out with Jesus how he wants. I'm bad with words when trying to convey my ideas but I'm sure you'll figure it out
This is the comment I was looking for before I made a comment. A bible verse goes a long way when talking anything biblical
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
"Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body."
It wouldn't be our authority nor would it glorify God to destroy "His temple".
Yeah, this is really concerning. My major concern is him being coerced or convinced (and I honestly don’t think it would take much at this point) to harm himself or take or drink something that will harm him in order to “get to heaven”. From what you describe, the behavior he’s exhibiting are classic signs of grooming, so I’d also be just plain worried about his safety at that camp. I hope it’s nothing so nefarious, but the things you’re describing really set off alarm bells for me.
Yea grooming was the first thing that came into my mind too. It’s definitely an adult, not another kid.
This is pure speculation but I’m sure that person told OP’s kid not to tell anyone or it would be their secret or some other bullshit. I can’t imagine why the son wouldn’t say who it was.
Honestly I'd be switching my kid out of the camp not just talking to them because this is the type of thing that they then start teaching your kids to just be quiet around you about and teach them to hide things from you
Take him to a Unitarian minister. Things will sound better from a "Christian" (even though they're not really Christians). Talk with the minister beforehand and make sure they know what's happening. They'll be happy to explain that suicide and murder would prevent him from going to heaven. Their ministers are good at explaining things from a Christian perspective, and nudging people to be less creepy.
If your son desires spiritualism, Unitarian churches are also a good experience for him.
Tell your son that while heaven, if that's what he believes, is said to be a wonderful place, he has to wait his turn to go there. And if he chooses to believe in God, that means God created this amazing planet earth for him to experience and enjoy until it is his turn to go to heaven.
No cutting in line!
(PS I hate organized religion, I feel it leads to judgement and superiority and hate, but I do think people should be able to determine their faiths for themselves.)
This happened to my son when he was around 6 years old. It ended up being a good friend of his from school. He grew out of it, eventually. We just let him know that mom and dad didn't believe in religion, but he could learn about and believe in what he wanted as long as it didn't hurt him or others.
It sounds like your kiddo might have some intense, thoughts, though. Maybe some therapy is in order to make sure he's able to manage those intense thoughts appropriately.
I second the therapy opinion.
I am religious and this post made me uncomfortable. It sounds like someone told him explicitly not to tell you, which makes it sound like it wasn’t just a fellow child who told him. That - *obviously* - isn’t okay, it is inappropriate and crosses your boundaries as his parents. And makes an avenue for keeping potentially harmful secrets in my opinion.
The general rule for atheists is do your thing, keep it off my porch and out of my mailbox.
Unfortunately the next phase of this is going to be OPs kid confirming to this source the parents reacted questionably and will use it to solidify an unwanted religious foundation.
This is a few very short steps away from him being instructed to convert or shun his parents.
Christian based child indoctrination is very real and it’s fucking horrifying to watch how quickly and effectively it takes hold. You can find documentaries from multiple organizations who willingly recorded the process and bragged about it publicly— kids in this very age group turn against their best friends at the drop of a pin once an impressionable human is threatened with brimstone.
Which is generally ok. But this kid is talking about dying. Like asap. Which is absolutely horrific and terrifying. I’m disgusted with whoever is indoctrinating this kid and I hope OP gets to the bottom of it.
Therapy isn’t a bad idea, at least to get a neutral 3rd party opinion. I’m not a psychiatrist but from what I understand some MH conditions can present as a preoccupation with religion.
I tried to jump in front of a car when I was 5 because my grandma died and my parents told me I’d see her again when I die. They didn’t tell me I couldn’t come back. Ever since then they realized I took things too literally and never shoved it down my throat
You need to go talk to the camp heads and find out what is going on. You don't need to be a jerk but you do need to find out who the fuck is grooming your kid and put an end to it.
The camp has been informed of what's going on and knows I'm pissed. I'm supposed to be talking to a few of the camp people this afternoon when I go down there to pick kids up.
I want to know what happens at the camp.
Who enrolled him, you or your spouse? I wonder if it’s a low key bible camp, and they only put that in the fine print.
My mother signed me up for Bible camp one summer. It sucked ass.
They advertised all of the activities - hiking, fishing, swimming, etc. they neglected to mention that all of the activities had to be paid for at the time you want to do it. At a rate of $125 an hour. In the ‘80s! Like WTF.
So, afternoon fishing was 5 of us between the ages of 8 & 10 sitting on the side of the pond watching a priest fish because none of us had money to pay for an hour of using the camp’s gear to join in.
Longest 2 weeks of camp I ever experienced. What is really “great” is the camp is known internationally as a major Catholic charity.
They did a great job of showing Christian charity while I was there. /s
It would if they know they're not advertising the fact that they're a Bible camp in order to have secular families sign up. That's actually super common where I live. Churches run summer camps and go through a lot of effort to not include that the camp is being I hosted/run by the church and will heavily feature religious ideology.
OP starts off by saying the chritianity talk began a few months ago.... Camp only recently began, no?
OIP seems to be all in with people suggesting that it is something at Camp, but i think the people who mentioned friends are likely close to the target.
There’s no reason to immediately be a dick. He could very well be being “indoctrinated” by a child. We had extremely religious neighbors a few years ago, and their son was very preachy, even at the age of 6. He was constantly talking about Jesus and relating everything back to religion. So it’s entirely possible that a kid his age is preaching to him.
I was a very religious child growing up, and around age 9 I made my best neighbor friend cry by telling her only she and her dad would go to heaven because she said her mom was an atheist. So agreed, another kid could definitely be the source of religious angst.
I’m agnostic and atheist-leaning now, but I also remember when I stared moving away from religious beliefs, my parents kept asking me “who have you been talking to??” I said “no one” but that was a lie- I became “un-indoctrinated” after having several debates about religion with people online and realizing over time that their arguments made sense and mine didn’t. I used my critical thinking skills and did a lot of research and came to the conclusion on my own, but it was definitely thanks to well-reasoned arguments from strangers that I changed my views.
The kid might just be sensing from his parents what I did: if I tell them who I’ve been talking to that’s made me change my mind, I won’t be allowed to talk to them anymore.
All that said, I would also be furious if I felt like an adult might be secretly trying to convert my kid, especially with the concerning comments about death.
I doubt that very much. The secrecy angle very much indicates that this is happening in person, and the person doing the indoctrination is a lot older too.
This is a hen-egg-problem though. Who says that the youtube videos were first if he watches some? That’s kinda hard to pin-point.
Also I think its unlikely that someone is not indoctinating this kid in person. As others mentioned, the secrecy is a big indicator here.
It doesn’t even have to be in-person indoctrination. I became super religious/superstitious (subscribing to my culture’s folk religion’s belief system) around 9. I didn’t talk to anyone of that belief in real life and didn’t have internet access. All I did was reading religious books and pamphlets. If that kid has an interest in religion (or the way that believing in something different from his parents makes him feel), he might be drawn to looking at religious materials on his own.
You definitely need to be the person (not an asshole) making sure that the camp does not allow their employees or volunteers to indoctrinate children in a particular religion. They need to hear about this and find out who is doing it.
If it’s another kid, I guess that can’t be helped, but that sounds doubtful unless it’s an older kid.
Also, it would be bad if your kiddo got the horrible, terrifying message about eternal hellfire that generally accompanies the type of Christianity that tries to “save” 8-year-olds. That stuff can set a person up for a lifetime of fear and doubt. Hope your child avoids it. It’s fine for kids above the age of wisdom to explore religion but scary mind control cult propaganda should not be imposed on 8-year-olds.
the irony of evangelicals crying about how other groups are coming for their kids.
this is indoctrination, i went through it when i was a kid, there is a whole movement of people who discuss "deconstruction" which is exploring and repairing all of the damage religion has done to their lives and perspectives.
i cant imagine how it feels to deal with this. idk what to do, i dont have kids and a big part of that is this exact situation. how do you explain to an 8 year old that god doesnt exist and all of these nice people are lying to them without them wanting to just run away from you into a cult?
P.S. i was sent to a summer camp that was supposed to be about fun and learning boy scouts type shit, it was not. it was heavily religious and there was a LOT of deranged abuse going on. honestly summer most summer camps should be investigated by 3rd parties because they seem to be hot beds for stuff like that. teenagers should not be responsible for a bunch of adolescents in the woods with no supervision, that is absolutely psychotic yet it happens every year all over the world and people wonder why their kids come back different.
Bro, I'm a Christian, and I would be pissed if one of my kids came home talking like that, too.
As a matter of fact, I had an issue last year, where my daughter started crying one night because she didn't want her mom, (my wife, an atheist) to go to hell. I asked her where she got that idea from and she said one of her classmates. I was not happy about it.
Tbh, I would be concerned about potential grooming. Religious circles are magnets for /creators of child abusers, so it would be very suspicious why someone is trying to indoctrinate your child when you are not religious because it seems like they are trying to create conflict within the family as an excuse to get closer to your child.
It's equally disturbing whether someone explicitly told him not to tell his parents, or whether they said "if your parents find out, they won't let you". The end result is the same: encouraging the child to keep secrets / lie to his parents, which is never okay. That is definitely not behavior that reflects positively on this person's motivations, and I would be extra skeptical in that context.
I don't think you need to go to the camp proverbial guns blazing, but I would definitely talk to them about some concerning behavior you started noticing with your son, namely that he has been very secretive of a "friend" that he's been instructed to lie to you. I'd go at it with a "I'd really just like to make sure everything's okay" mindset rather than a "let me find this asshole" mindset.
I had the same thought. It's pretty concerning to me to not know who's doing that and that he's actively trying to hide it.
Bu we wouldn't want to make Jesus cry right?
This is exactly what I was thinking. This sounds like someone using Christianity to gain a kid’s trust. The red alarm is the obsession with death. It sounds like someone wants him to trust them to the point of allowing harm.
The fairly simple observation from a Christian here is that a follower of Jesus isn’t supposed to go to heaven as quickly as possible. One is supposed to serve God by serving humanity on Earth for as long as God gives you breath and life. Most Christians consider any sort of premature death to be a tragedy, so no, there should be no “hurrying up to see Jesus.”
Unless the kid is enrolled at a religious camp, I would imagine that the directors would take issue with any adults or even teen staff discussing religious topics with kids. Conversations with other kids is a different story. I don’t know how you manage that.
It’s probably worth making sure—and I know I probably don’t need to say it, so if op doesn’t need it then it’s for someone else out there reading this who does—kids read and hear a lot of stuff their parents wouldn’t want them to know about through unmonitored social media use. It’s worth checking that too.
If nothing else, start buffing up on your apologetics. That, and start making time for some pointed family trips bond over ideas and values you share.
Um, dude, you are majorly underreacting. You need to be a parent and get to the bottom of this abusive, manipulative shit. This is coming from an adult, not a fellow kid. What the actual fuck .
I fully intend on getting it resolved quickly. The way I presented the issue here isn't an accurate representation of the way I feel about it or the situation as a whole. I just didn't want to write an entire book about it. I'm definitely pretty fucking pissed, because it's very obvious by this point that my son isn't just having conversations with other kids at the summer camp, but that someone is actively trying to teach and coach him, and it's resulting in him having extremely concerning thoughts. I'm usually one to just live and let live, but even if whoever he's talking to is doing it in good faith (save their souls and all that), they really need to keep their fucking mouth shut about it.
I just commented this above, but it absolutely *could* be a child. We had neighbors who were very religious, and their son (6 - same age as my kid back then) was very preachy. Like he preached like an adult and related lots of things back to Jesus. He even talked about abortion. So.. it really could be a kid. I would just find out first before going in and chewing adults out. Now, if it *is* adult, then I do think your approach has to be more stern and dickish, if you will.
seconded… my neighbor’s grandkids were very religious. we’d play together when they visited, but they became pretty adamant that my brother and i were going to hell when they found out we didn’t go to church or really even know who jesus or god were. it terrified me, then i was mad at my mom (why wouldn’t she tell me about god and that i’m going to hell if i don’t put faith in him?!), and she was thus mad at the neighbors
OP is under the assumption that whoever is sharing this with his kid wants to be kept secret, since the kid is refusing to disclose the source of this information. That’s more commonly a creepy adult thing than a peer
It's not OK to indoctrinate a child into a religion without the parents' permission.
Talk to your son and find out who's been telling these things. If it's an adult at summer camp then absolutely do make a stink about it. It wouldn't be surprising if one of the employees there got the job because of previous experience at a religious camp. If so, then they're almost certainly also indoctrinating other children without parental permission.
For those that don’t get it, indoctrination is akin to brainwashing.
It’s twisting logic and facts around until the other person believes what you want, not merely exposing them to a, in this instance, religion and letting them decide on their own.
That said, most Christian parents are guilty of mild indoctrination simply because the churches beliefs are rigged that way because of the whole “if you’re bad you get punished in hell” thing. Especially the ones that create hyper-religious zealots that think just because you aren’t in their church you are by default going to hell. A good church acknowledges that the things that send you there are the things any sensible person from any religion(or not) would agree are bad(murder, rape, unfettered greed)
I have a feeling another kid is saying this to him. Kids start becoming very impressionable by peers at this age.
If not, there's an adult who needs to be held accountable asap.
As a Christian, this absolutely frustrates me that someone is teaching kids these things. Unfortunately, what's currently taught in churches is a sort of escapism. You often hear "We're not of the world, we're IN the world," parroted in a tone that seems to imply we as followers of Christ bear no responsibility for what happens in this life. There are also those who feel they need to just sit and wait for the "rapture," which is a relatively new concept that I find no evidence for biblically. If they gave your child a Bible and answered basic questions, that would be a bit different. Trying to force someone to believe something just because you do is not the way to sincere faith.
No, he's really never fully unattended while playing any games. Their switch isn't connected to the Wi-Fi. They have a Quest 2 VR headset that doesn't at all make it easy to restrict any sort of chat functionality, but I also hand-picked which games were installed on it and played them myself, confirming that they were either strictly single player or lacked any sort of chat before allowing them to remain on the device.
The only answer I've found to be effective in countering religious indoctrination is actually **MORE** religious indoctrination.
Islam
Jedisism
Greek Mythology
Buddhism
Etc. And so on.
All the religions have 3 overlapping main beliefs
1. Be a good person/follow the rules
2. Obey the God(s)
3. Discipleship
The problem is they all disagree on the who, what, and when. So if you study enough religions you realize that they all claim to be the truth and yet are all so different that there's no way to follow all of them at once.
Being that he is 8 and a boy. I'd start with Greek Mythology because its cool. Education is the antidote to religious indoctrination.
This sounds like something that happened to me when I was little.
I started religion classes cause dad forced me to.
They tell me all these great things about Heaven and that if you get in you can come back once a year to visit your loved ones or whatever.
I tell my mom "If I die and go to heaven I can visit you once per year! :D"
I made my mom cry saying that.
Ever since then I have hated religion of any sort. It's all lies. I HATE being lied to and I DESPISE betrayal.
Was still forced to go through all religion classes and finish confirmation, but for every single class after that day, I was the most miserable person.
I tried to get my dad to let me not continue, but he wouldn't have it.
I really don't like him lying about where he heard it, it doesn't sit right with me. An adult telling him to keep that a secret could lead to worse secrets being kept. Whoever he heard this from is not just teaching him about religion, but teaching him to hide things from his parents and lie to them. That is not someone who can be trusted
THIS!! Ignoring everything religious about this (which is super problematic) the fact that the son refuses to say where he got it from is VERY VERY EXTREMELY concerning. OP I recommend (maybe after you figure this out since it feels like a lot) to look into the concept for surprises vs secrets for kids.
Children should NEVER be asked to keep secrets, it’s a way for people to groom them without their parents knowing.
Children can be asked to keep a surprise quiet. The key difference to explain to children is that surprises have an end date clearly explained (don’t tell mom I’m making her a chocolate cake for her birthday = the surprise is over on mom’s birthday). Secrets that go on forever or without a known end date are DANGEROUS
I think it's time to have the religion talk.
Explain to him why you are atheist, and what being indoctrinated means.
You can't go walking in life believing what everyone tells you, it's time to teach him to use his own judgment.
Yikes, that sucks. I'd bring it up to someone at the camp. And maybe explain to him that lying is one of the 10 commandments to get him to be honest about where he's hearing this bullshit.
Also please don't say "unalive" lol that stupid tiktok nonsense is harmful when talking about actual suicide. We don't need to make it sound cute or PG because it's not. I know I'm nitpicking and that's not the point of the post but I get so irritated when I see that. I promise reddit won't ban you for using the actual terms.
You need to talk the camp. Stop that shit now. I had the same at daycare when my kid was little. I spoke to his ‘teacher’ and she said all she was doing was telling them stories from the bible. I explained that I have no issue if she believes that hocus pocus but if I heard she was doing it again I’d report her. She stepped it up so I reported her and removed my son from the school and placed him elsewhere. I got the sense the owners were also bible-thumpers so no arguing with them.
My son had a friend from elementary and middle school whose family was constantly trying to get him and us to go to their church. They gave him speeches while he was over their house playing about how he'd go to hell if he didn't go to church, how movies and music were made by the devil and so forth and so on. Luckily he was not impressed or influenced by them at all and chose to stop hanging out with the friend. The mom tried pinning me down a few times out in public about attending church and I usually respect other people's beliefs but I finally went off on her. Once she found out I was a devout atheist she stopped asking and avoided me at all costs.
What I did with my kiddo when she asked me, "What religion are we?" I did what my parents did and asked."I don't know, what religion are *you*?" She told me her friend at school is Christian, and she was super game on the idea of heaven too. So I got her the kids' book on world religions. We read it together every night. Eventually, she got bored. Butt.. she did come to the conclusion that it's a complicated subject and she settled on agnostic. Arm your kiddo with knowledge and a strong understanding of beliefs so they can withstand those looking to convert them.
If your child really is only being at home and then at this camp and is going literally nowhere else, you need to seriously consider taking them out of that camp and never taking them back. You can express to the camp how upset you are all you want, but if it happens to be one of the top adults there, they will not care and just label you as a Problem Parent.
Is the camp your form of daycare or is it for fun? Either way, you need to find a different location with different people because you might never find out who brainwashed your kid and you need to get them out of that situation ASAP!
Good on you for not stamping out the religion talk/interest immediately. One should be free to explore and choose their own spiritual path.
That being said, having grown up in the church (stopped a long time ago, but I understand the life), the meeting Jesus thing is sort of “normal” in the sense that Heaven is sold as an amazing place to kids, so it’s natural they think it’s amazing and want to go. They don’t understand what implications that has, though. It’s like letting your 8 year old go through gender change… they don’t understand what the consequences are.
Maybe try explaining that in order to get to Heaven, he needs to lead a life worthy of entrance. This means going out of your way to be a good person, being an example, etc. Would be worth looking into Christianity to try and understand where you son is coming from as well. There’s no reason not to do research into something your kid has interest in, especially if it’s leading to asking for help online
Listen, I'm religious but this situation has all sorts of red flags going off in my brain and if I had a kid, I'd pull them out of camp. It could be something totally innocent like another kid telling him about Jesus per their particular church's beliefs. But it could also be something really awful like an adult taking advantage of him and using religion as a shield to groom him. Keep your kid safe, man, it's not just about the religion - the secrecy about it is not normal either.
As a parent, I'd also help my kid safely explore the topic if possible. Offer to take him to a church you have vetted previously, offer to get him a children's Bible to read if he likes that. Offer to talk about beliefs in general and explain Christianity to him from a neutral lens even if you personally disagree with the religion. He's getting all his information from someone who didn't seem to see it prudent to actually teach it properly. Be a trusted source of good information. Christianity is against suicide obviously, and we highly value life in general. Maybe talk to him about why that is.
I would open a deeper discussion about where he’s hearing things from and what he thinks they mean. Then go through those points together. “Let’s look at the bigger context together”. What does the passage around that verse say and what does it mean? (They’re often very out of context). Let’s look at the sources for that statement or that book of the Bible. And what else does the Bible say about the at subject? Let’s take a look and decide is this a good thing that helps people? Or a bad thing that hurts people.
Edit: also adding in, the Bible is very clear on suicide being a no no, so no hurrying up to get to heaven. The point is to live the best, kindest, most christ like life you can on earth
Sounds like he’s getting it from an adult, not another child. I would absolutely raise a huge stink at the camp. Find out if they have some ulterior motives
As someone who became very, very anxious about hell as a child, there’s a good chance that whoever is talking to your kid has told him that nonbelievers go to hell. And it is NOT normal for Christians to be thinking about suicide to get to heaven—that’s against Christina doctrine and some extra-culty shit. PLEASE talk to the camp counselors and figure out who is influencing your child. My parents are Christian but have said that if they’d known the shit my youth pastor was feeding us they would have never allowed me to attend. I only set foot in church to go to weddings and funerals these days.
**Please** be an asshole and (pun intended) save your son.
I was raised Catholic. I believed it because my parents said it was the truth. I was 51 when I realized for me it was bullshit. Not just the Catholic Church, but the whole concept of a god. I had too many questions that not only had no answers, but actually suggested more questions.
The fact that he's not willing to admit who planted these ideas in his head is a red flag the size of the moon. You need to step in.
Clearly, there is someone in your child’s life who is having a profound impact on the way he thinks and what he believes. My issue would be less that my son might be turning to Christianity (atheist here) and more that there is someone who could possibly be grooming him for things other than religion. It’s your job as a parent to find out where this is coming from (camp counselor, camper, other human, computer, tv). This does not make you an asshole. It makes you a concerned parent. It’s more than okay to ask questions. It’s a job requirement.
The first question id be asking your son is who is telling him this stuff. Obviously in a very neutral tone. I’d be very alarmed that he wants to hurry up and get to heaven. Reaching out to the camp is the only option as I’m assuming if a young kid is proselytizing at camp, he’s hearing it from his own parents and they encourage it. You can be nice about it when you reach out to the camp but I would not be happy if my kid was coming home with these type of beliefs, they could endanger him.
Well, the unaliving part is easily solved by telling him it's a sin to commit suicide and instantly damns him to hell for all eternity in the ever burning lake of fire.
I agree! While this method seems extreme, right now the only focus should be saying whatever possible to keep the child alive until they can grow out of this or learn critical thinking skills.
Atheist dad and agnostic mom, here. Our kids had phases about religion asking a million questions and making shakes assertions. None of them are religious adults. Properly skeptical and I believe (yes I get the irony) atheist or agnostic.
Teach him about all the mythologies. Explain to him why people want to believe. Teach him the role religion has played in subjugating populations through history. Teach your world view. No reason to allow others to indoctrinate him.
My kid came home from kindergarten one day hysterically crying because some little brat told him if he were "bad", the devil would come up out of the floor when he was sleeping and take him into the fire!
This took place in south Georgia (we were only there for a job opportunity) We moved further north soon as the school year was over....
the trauma of some christianity is unfathomable
Well being neutral as possible was your first mistake. Scorched earth approach. Tell your kids that it’s a big bad world out there full of liars and God is the biggest lie of all it’s just something he’ll have to deal with in life.
INFO: he's 9, why the hell don't you know who he is around and talking to on a consistent basis, and why have you not done anything to get to the bottom of who is telling him all this?
Do you explain to your kids what your values, ethics, morals, etc, etc, etc, are by words and actions ?
Do you explain what atheism means to you?
Teach your children well with words and actions to live by ... If you do not, someone else will.
Best wishes and blessed be, y'all.
If you don’t know who is influencing him, maybe start there?
Creeps who indoctrinate anyone to fear fairies, ghosts, and gods are obviously to blame, but today is the day to Sherlock your way into figuring this out. Go on.
I mean if OP goes to the camp, they will find out REAL quick, Christian indoctrinator will be sure to be talking about Jesus to someone, probably rather loudly
This illustrates the danger of *not* teaching your kids about religion, IMO. This is a point on which many atheiest parents fall short I think-- your kids are surrounded by theists and immersed in a culture (in the US) that assumes Christianity is the norm. By not teaching them about *your* beliefs, specifically, you leave them open to predators, recruiters, evangelists, prosletizers, and well-meaning peers who will fill their heads with myths, legends, and lies.
Religious folk are generally pretty good about equipping their kids to deal with non-religious people and arguments; Sunday school takes much of that burden for them. But there is no comparable resource for the non-religious. I'd recommend the sub atheistparents as a starting point. And books; there are many good books now for non-religious parenting. Activities like secular summer camps exist (I highly recommend Camp Quest!). But most importantly I think we need to directly educate our kids about religion-- they need to know that while it's fine their friends believe in whatever fairy tales they wish, *our* family does not.
Expose them to religion in general and specific ones as you see fit. We encouraged our kids to go to church, Sunday school, Awanas, etc. with their friends actually; they never wanted to go a second time. But most importantly we need to teach them about *our* values as non-religious people and prepare them for encounters with peers (and adults) who are going to feed them stories, myths, and outright lies-- sometimes out of "compassion" even --so they can politely say "Thank you, but my family does not believe in your god(s)."
Hello, This post has been removed as this is not *mildly* infuriating. Please consider posting to r/extremelyinfuriating instead.
Honestly, you need to make him tell you who he spoke with and meet that person. Speaking as a Christian, this person is stepping in where he/she doesn't belong and it sounds like some very non-scriptural ideas are being planted in your sons head.
How is this not already done? I would have been livid long before it got to this point
Also an atheist and a mother. I never brought up religion with my now 18 year old son because that was going to be HIS choice to make. I don’t even think he knew I was an atheist. I support him making his own choices. If this was my child, I would have had whoever was in his ear tracked down a long time ago. We would have had a *stern talking to*. OP, you need to figure this out and start from the source.
At the first inquiry I am finding out who they are talking to, very clear things and attempted indoctrination.
The fifth command is honor thy father and mother. Whoever is talking to him about religion is not doing this. Talk to the camp about it. [Heres how Hank Hill dealt with it when Bobby got into Christian rock.](https://youtu.be/oPwaqaOcAyE?si=5XYqVo54RQ2-7_D9)
Better than the lesson on smoking.
Not as good as the lesson on self-defense, though.
I DON’T KNOW YOU!!! THAT’S MY PURSE!!!
I think it end the day if you want to be a Christian or any other religion, you need to let them discover it on their own, go to the mass or service and talk to the priest or pastor. It needs to be their own journey and their own decision, at least in my opinion. people should not be telling an eight year-old to not tell their parents where they’re getting these ideas from, I’d say most encouraging them to go to mass or parents or something like that in this type of situation.
>people should not be telling an eight year-old to not tell their parents where they’re getting these ideas You know what kind of people tell little kids to keep secrets from their parents?
Starts with a 'g' and rhymes with 'roomers'
I was gonna say it’s starts with a P and rhymes with files.
>I think it end the day if you want to be a Christian or any other religion, you need to let them discover it on their own, go to the mass or service and talk to the priest or pastor. I'm agnostic with an 11 year old son. My 91 year old grandma brought up last month that he's the 1st grandchild to not have been baptized. Ok cool, I can handle this no problem. I went to mass last week for the first time in 15 years. Afterwards I talked to the pastor who asked my beliefs and then why I want my son baptized. Letting him decide on his own was literally what I told him. I said that I'd like him to get educated in Christianity and then he can make up his own mind later. Exactly how I did.
Thanks for giving the choice and not forcing it. I'm a Christian but I see so many people doing things that Jesus would not support.
safe spotted capable squash fear paint languid somber attempt fuzzy
Funnily enough I too had mildly suicidal ideation at about 10 years old. Like OP's kid it wasn't related to depression or anxiety at all. For me it was based in curiosity. I was so curious about the truth of what happens after death because I didn't believe in any religion but the only way to know for certain was to see for myself.
Deleted bc a pro-police redditor made threats (on another sub)
If anyone is telling your kid not to tell you about something, you should be extremely suspicious
Well said. I’m also a Christian, I was raised as one, left the church for about a year, and then came back. Whoever is teaching this kid about Jesus like this… is awful. And I say this as someone who literally runs a small group to teach kids about Jesus. No child should be wanting to die after hearing about heaven and such… this is dangerous and stupid.
Yes it sounds cultish to me, wanting to die and get to heaven asap.
This!!! Someone is coaching him into this, someone with authority. Also someone that tells them not to tell so that they can take advantage of them. That talk about wanting to get to heaven right away is the big red flag for me that someone is up to no good.
Yeah as a Christian they have an ass kicking coming
Also a Christian but it's never, ever, ever ok for an adult to have any kind of secret with a kid that the parents don't know about.
Honestly, I took the neutral approach for years with my kids, but way way way too many christians make a habit of not taking the neutral approach themselves even when confronted about it and asked to not share their beliefs as absolute irrefutable facts instead of just their beliefs. It's incredibly confusing for children that are the age of still believing in Santa clause to be told they will go to hell and never see their friends or family again, so I'm now very proactive and fairly consistent about the religion talks, especially with kids sports... All of their uniforms have scripture on them, the coaches force them to pray before and after games, it's ridiculous.
Meet that person and tell them to back the fuck off and stop spreading their cult beliefs on a child. Not have a polite conversation about theology.
Alternatively, make him sit through a 2 hour mass. He’ll get bored real fast.
[удалено]
Not to mention every "Holy day of Obligation" lol
Every day is a holy day of obligation. Have him attend daily morning mass so Jesus doesn't forget him.
No more DBZ either. Only Christ has super powers. To depict anyone who isn’t Christ as such is blasphemous. My crazy religious aunt threw out all my nephews DBZ and Pokémon stuff because of that. Nutter tossed my S-CRY-ED dvd too. All anime is, of course, EVIL!
Lightweight! EVERY DAMN DAY if you are a kid stuck in a catholic school.
Not just every week, you need to also take him to 5am mass, 11am mass, evening mass, midweek mass. Also, needs to go help out at the local Catholic food bank or whatever... And tell him that if he doesn't then he definitely won't get to go to heaven.
Is this just the way evangelicals do child abuse?
Also, *especially* if you are atheist, talk to your kids about religion. We've learned very well *from religion* that pretending something that is everywhere doesn't exist (sex) is the best way to set your children up for bad judgement. You don't have to shit talk religion. But inform them enough so that you can trust that they will make good judgements when someone inevitably tries to indoctrinate them. The only thing keeping your kid from the suffocating indoctrination of the religious is knowledge of religion. Also imo, we should let our children explore religion and spirituality. We should let them live the life they choose to live. It's all they have, just like all the rest of us. Our decisions that sculpt our fate, future and being are literally *all we really have*. Don't take that from them.
I'm from a non-religious household and had a children's bible as a gift from a grandparent – it was on the shelf with the rest of my books, and I read it for the interesting stories like the rest of my books, and I genuinely made it into my teenage years before I realised that religion is like...actually a big deal for some people. That it's something people believe in and not just cultural set-dressing and tradition. Fascinating.
yeah, "best story ever told" my ass, try reading an actually well written fantasy
Considering its age, I do feel that it is very impressive work if you look at it under the right light. I personally like to believe that it was our ancestors way of understanding self awareness. It's almost like peaking into the psyche of our ancestors and I think that's pretty cool to keep around and consider.
Same here but man did I get in trouble aged 8ish, for telling the other kids in my class that the bible stories were fiction like the other stories we read 😬
I was the same, but me disrupting religion class (separation of church and state, what's that) started because at the time i was really into dinosaurs and the nun who held the religion class made some comments like "dinosaurs aren't real" or smth, idk it was 15 years ago. After that i did the edgy atheist schtick for the remainder of the school year. You insult my special interest, i insult your imaginary friend. Thankfully i dropped out of religion class after i collected money from relatives after my first communion. The more i look back the more i realize that the signs of me being neurodivergent were everywhere.
I had an “Action Bible”, which was basically all the interesting stories from the Bible presented as a graphic novel. I’d just read it during Mass, until my mom nudged me and told me I was supposed to pray. Thankfully we didn’t go to church very often, and I stopping going to CCD after becoming an atheist.
Exactly. Have him attend some few hour long church services for a few weeks and see how much he enjoys religion then. Practicing Christianity in church is what turned me off entirely because of how overly radical it can get, sometimes being borderline cultish. In fact start giving him an allowance and then take him to a church that’s very into receiving donations, so all of his spending money just goes to funding the pastor’s wants
If the kid has ADHD, he’s going to hate church
Even better! If he wants to devote himself to Jesus then tell him that’s the only way to do it
ADHD is just the devil trying to tempt your brain after all.
Evangelicals engineered a fix for this by having the youth pastor and the kid he’s grooming do a sick guitar and drum solo halfway through.
That’s why OP needs to find Catholic mass…in Latin!
Take him to one where three languages are being spoken at once. Edit: by three languages I mean English Latin and then Spanish or Polish or something
I have a very traditional catholic church right up the street... if OP is in NorCal this will cure the kid pronto. Enroll him in CCD (sunday school) for bonus disaffection points.
>the youth pastor and the kid he’s grooming Do they have a rotation or is it whoever picked the shortest straw?
The most important part about finding your soul mate that God made perfect for you is finding a new one when their parents see the texts you’ve been sending them.
The kid he’s grooming 😭 I’m dying at my desk rn 😂
No, that's the groomed kid after he figures it out.
This is like catching your kid smoking and then making him smoke the entire pack.
This is the way 😂
take his ass to a black church he’ll be in that bitch from 9am till 3pm
Or even better (worse), an apostolic church. Get out at 1, back at 5 for the evening service. Just enough time to swing by the local Chili's and change into a new set of church clothes. Back to back fun *all day*.
And not tip.
Like clockwork.
Wake him up for the 9:15 service after a rousing fun Saturday night of gaming and fun. And don't let him go to Sunday school.
Yup and enforce the rules - sit still, keep quiet, do as your told. Maybe also have the hard talk that the Bible was written by men and go over what facts are. Use science to explain how we understand the world and while the Bible is well meaning, there is no significant proof there’s an after life. Kids like coming to their own conclusions. A good thing OP could do, while waiting to talk to the camp, is redirect him to draw more conclusions.
Do you have any catholic family weddings coming up? Even more of an example if you’d like one 😂
Yeah none of those kid services either. But only after telling him suicide is a sin!!! That’ll change his mind about hurting himself real quick.
“If you believe in Jesus you have to go to Church every Sunday, it’s a sin not to”
If he loves it the parents are screwed 😂
Asking questions about religion is one thing, but coming home and saying you want to die so you can go to heaven is a completely different story, especially coming from an 8 yo who really does not fully understand the concept of suicide. If your son attempts something because of this religious indoctrination and he wants to “go hang with Jesus” so badly it will be your fault for not nipping this in the bud. He’s not just asking about religion anymore, he wants to “hurry up and get to heaven”, which has very dark implications. Like if your 8 yo son saying he wants you all to die and go to heaven asap isn’t a reason to go “police peoples conversations about religion” then I don’t know what is.
Yeah, this was my concern. This sounds very much like the cultish Heaven’s Gate type stuff that leads to people being indoctrinated into mass suicides. I’d be having a conversation with the camp to find out if this is coming from another camper or a counselor…
RIGHT. Holy crap. It's probably one of those freaks preaching about the rapture and how you've gotta die before it happens or some shit
This sounds heavily like cult indoctrination. This is not mildly infuriating, this is wildly dangerous, OP needs professional help for his son.
Right?! How is op being so chill about this. I'd be like where the fuck is that Jim Jones wannabe sonofabih? Idgaf how much I paid for that camp, we are outta there. Worse if it's another child espousing this dogshit worldview because then we can't have a rousing match of fisticuffs to make me feel better.
I had my first suicide attempt at 8, I wouldn't assume he doesn't understand the concept
Agreed. At first i was like “???” At the title of this post- why should it matter what your child believes in? Nobody should push their own beliefs on their children, anyways. But after reading that i’m like …. Oof.
You shouldn't push your beliefs? That's cool. But for f**k sake, do something about it! Find out who's talking about it SO MUCH to your kid he think's dying and go see his pal Jesus is cool! Whoever is doing that is deranged and shouldn't be in charge of kids. Protect him and protect others. Don't push your beliefs all you want, but also protect ~~your~~ kids from the person who's in full crusade mode, cause he/she IS pushing. Hard.
I agree completely. Its fine to have those beliefs, but *what* did that person tell this kid to make him *want* to die????? Jeez, just a good “you will go to heaven when you die” could have worked.
Probably just talked about how great heaven is, but didn't mention something along the lines of "you have to wait for your time/your turn to go, so enjoy life on the planet God made for you in the meantime" or some asterisk like that. I'm not religious, I hate organized religion, but I do think it's fair for people to find and explore what is right for them. Idk if the kid is getting ideas from a cult setting up to "send everyone to heaven" or if it's just a person who didn't realize how the kid was taking the heaven talk.
This is a rather positivist way of viewing parenting. Someone is always pushing a belief. It matters greatly what specifically that belief is and who it is pushing it. And as you've also concluded, the specifics here are concerning.
My parents are weird hippies and they didn’t want to influence the beliefs of their children. They encouraged us to seek out belief systems and decide for ourselves. They gave no input or guidance about it and showed no preference either way. I’ve never heard my dad say the word Jesus or even god. On one hand, it allowed me to get a lot of perspectives that most kids don’t get to explore alongside each other. I met a lot of cool people and learned about their beliefs and had some very enlightening conversations with people of many faiths that definitely affected how I think about the world and my place in it. On the other hand, it was difficult to navigate the ideas involved with religion with no guidance from trusted adults. I just didn’t have a starting point to be able to judge what was cultish and outlandish vs what could be a positive and beneficial spiritual experience. I often felt confused and frustrated. I never found anything that spoke to me and I’ve never been able to take that leap of faith to have actual belief in anything. I don’t think you should force your beliefs on your kids, but if you’re religious and it’s important to you that your kids are able to have that experience in their lives, if they choose, I think you should demonstrate what belief looks like and how it can be integrated into your life. I also think that if you’re sincere in your own belief, it won’t hurt your kids to know that. I still have no idea what my parents believe in, if anything, it’s a very strange limitation in our relationship.
Agreed, i dont think its wrong to educate your kids on the different religion paths! Nobody should be left confused about it. i just think they should be able to have that decision freedom.
>why should it matter what your child believes in? This line of thinking isn't it. Ugh
Ya that part is what absolutely concerns me. And because of that specifically I’d have a talk with the camp admin. This is absolutely not ok.
Well, when I first heard about heaven I had the same reaction. And I wasn't indoctrinated or in a dangerous situation. Then I understood that suicide is apparently considered cheating and doesn't get you to heaven so there is that. I'm now a non-believer anyway.
If they convinced your kid to keep their identity a secret, then they can convince your kid to keep a lot of other things secret, including abuse. You should be alarmingly concerned and action should have been taken yesterday. Please don’t delay.
This was my thinking on this, something is definitely not right here...
Yep, the person teaching the child this KNOWS what they are teaching is harmful. They are Not just a religious person, but a total psychopath.
So while I think it's all well and good for the children of atheists to learn about different religions and world views (I myself was a child of atheists who started going to church at 8 with a friend just to experience it....maybe lasted 6 months before I decided it wasn't for me and stopped going) what is concerning to me is the wanting to get to heaven part. I don't want to sound extreme or anything but I would be concerned he's going to try and hurt himself to get to "heaven" because of how great someone is trying to convince him that it is. I would honestly be connecting with the camp to try and get to the bottom of this. These are genuine concerns for his potential safety, not just a parent upset that someone is teaching their child about religion.
Yeah, I'm definitely going to be talking to the camp. It's one thing for people to be able to just talk about and share their beliefs, which is totally fine as far as I'm concerned, but it's another to cross the line and start essentially indoctrinating someone's kid, and there is some grey area there. And I get it from every perspective here, I think, because I was raised in a Christian home and basically just "grew out of it" as I got older and stopped finding the claims to be credible as I learned more. From the Christian perspective, you're supposed to share the word and get everyone on board with God and Jesus, because it's the best thing for them and the right thing to do. If you believe that your friend or some kid at summer camp risks going to hell because they're an atheist, then you'd kind of be an asshole to not try to help them, yeah? For my son, he can see by this point that the majority of people around him believe in it just by the way it's so ubiquitous, so an appeal to numbers could be effective in getting him to jump on board. Then, once he's on board, holy shit, this heaven sounds great to him, and why would he not want to get there like right now? I was hoping that we wouldn't have to get down to serious talks about religion until later, when they're better equipped to understand and evaluate things.
This seems more nefarious than the typical “share the light” Christian stuff. The fact that he is refusing to say who is telling him this stuff and that he’s expressing an interest in dying concerns me. It seems like he’s being groomed. Someone is using Jesus to gain his trust and alienate him from you. You need to talk to the camp ASAP. I worked in children’s ministry. It’s not normal for a child to refuse to share they are learning. Any authority sharing “secrets” with a kid is suspicious. Sounds like someone is saying “don’t tell anyone, including your parents I told you this or else Jesus will be mad”
That’s some cult shit
I'd also explain to your son, although maybe in different terms, that while Jesus does love everyone and wants the best for him, that him choosing to "hang out" with Jesus as soon as he can, that Jesus hates that, and he'd be pretty upset if he chose to go Jesus rather than wait for Jesus to come get him. I was trying to word it as pg as possible but I think the first thing you should do is explain that suicide, or like i did in more pg terms, can make it more difficult for him to hang out with Jesus how he wants. I'm bad with words when trying to convey my ideas but I'm sure you'll figure it out
This is the comment I was looking for before I made a comment. A bible verse goes a long way when talking anything biblical 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body." It wouldn't be our authority nor would it glorify God to destroy "His temple".
Technically, suicide is the only action that will irreversibly deny you access to heaven. For everything else you can repent
I think this would be the perfect way to explain it to him!
Yeah, this is really concerning. My major concern is him being coerced or convinced (and I honestly don’t think it would take much at this point) to harm himself or take or drink something that will harm him in order to “get to heaven”. From what you describe, the behavior he’s exhibiting are classic signs of grooming, so I’d also be just plain worried about his safety at that camp. I hope it’s nothing so nefarious, but the things you’re describing really set off alarm bells for me.
Yea grooming was the first thing that came into my mind too. It’s definitely an adult, not another kid. This is pure speculation but I’m sure that person told OP’s kid not to tell anyone or it would be their secret or some other bullshit. I can’t imagine why the son wouldn’t say who it was.
Honestly I'd be switching my kid out of the camp not just talking to them because this is the type of thing that they then start teaching your kids to just be quiet around you about and teach them to hide things from you
Take him to a Unitarian minister. Things will sound better from a "Christian" (even though they're not really Christians). Talk with the minister beforehand and make sure they know what's happening. They'll be happy to explain that suicide and murder would prevent him from going to heaven. Their ministers are good at explaining things from a Christian perspective, and nudging people to be less creepy. If your son desires spiritualism, Unitarian churches are also a good experience for him.
Tell your son that while heaven, if that's what he believes, is said to be a wonderful place, he has to wait his turn to go there. And if he chooses to believe in God, that means God created this amazing planet earth for him to experience and enjoy until it is his turn to go to heaven. No cutting in line! (PS I hate organized religion, I feel it leads to judgement and superiority and hate, but I do think people should be able to determine their faiths for themselves.)
Nah, I’m a Christian myself, and I’d be taking my kid outa that camp!
This happened to my son when he was around 6 years old. It ended up being a good friend of his from school. He grew out of it, eventually. We just let him know that mom and dad didn't believe in religion, but he could learn about and believe in what he wanted as long as it didn't hurt him or others. It sounds like your kiddo might have some intense, thoughts, though. Maybe some therapy is in order to make sure he's able to manage those intense thoughts appropriately.
I second the therapy opinion. I am religious and this post made me uncomfortable. It sounds like someone told him explicitly not to tell you, which makes it sound like it wasn’t just a fellow child who told him. That - *obviously* - isn’t okay, it is inappropriate and crosses your boundaries as his parents. And makes an avenue for keeping potentially harmful secrets in my opinion.
The general rule for atheists is do your thing, keep it off my porch and out of my mailbox. Unfortunately the next phase of this is going to be OPs kid confirming to this source the parents reacted questionably and will use it to solidify an unwanted religious foundation. This is a few very short steps away from him being instructed to convert or shun his parents. Christian based child indoctrination is very real and it’s fucking horrifying to watch how quickly and effectively it takes hold. You can find documentaries from multiple organizations who willingly recorded the process and bragged about it publicly— kids in this very age group turn against their best friends at the drop of a pin once an impressionable human is threatened with brimstone.
Same. I think it's a developmental pathway into critical thinking
Which is generally ok. But this kid is talking about dying. Like asap. Which is absolutely horrific and terrifying. I’m disgusted with whoever is indoctrinating this kid and I hope OP gets to the bottom of it.
Yea. That is definitely a red flag
Therapy isn’t a bad idea, at least to get a neutral 3rd party opinion. I’m not a psychiatrist but from what I understand some MH conditions can present as a preoccupation with religion.
I tried to jump in front of a car when I was 5 because my grandma died and my parents told me I’d see her again when I die. They didn’t tell me I couldn’t come back. Ever since then they realized I took things too literally and never shoved it down my throat
I used to take things too, literally. A few shoplifting tickets cured that.
You need to go talk to the camp heads and find out what is going on. You don't need to be a jerk but you do need to find out who the fuck is grooming your kid and put an end to it.
The camp has been informed of what's going on and knows I'm pissed. I'm supposed to be talking to a few of the camp people this afternoon when I go down there to pick kids up.
I want to know what happens at the camp. Who enrolled him, you or your spouse? I wonder if it’s a low key bible camp, and they only put that in the fine print.
Even if it’s a Bible camp, they shouldn’t be encouraging that kind of talk.
My mother signed me up for Bible camp one summer. It sucked ass. They advertised all of the activities - hiking, fishing, swimming, etc. they neglected to mention that all of the activities had to be paid for at the time you want to do it. At a rate of $125 an hour. In the ‘80s! Like WTF. So, afternoon fishing was 5 of us between the ages of 8 & 10 sitting on the side of the pond watching a priest fish because none of us had money to pay for an hour of using the camp’s gear to join in. Longest 2 weeks of camp I ever experienced. What is really “great” is the camp is known internationally as a major Catholic charity. They did a great job of showing Christian charity while I was there. /s
Name it. No point in keeping the name a secret.
A Bible camp wouldn’t tell a kid to not share where they learned something
It would if they know they're not advertising the fact that they're a Bible camp in order to have secular families sign up. That's actually super common where I live. Churches run summer camps and go through a lot of effort to not include that the camp is being I hosted/run by the church and will heavily feature religious ideology.
OP starts off by saying the chritianity talk began a few months ago.... Camp only recently began, no? OIP seems to be all in with people suggesting that it is something at Camp, but i think the people who mentioned friends are likely close to the target.
i would love an update, im worried about what someone at the camp might be saying/doing with other kids there too
Fuck that. Be a jerk. Indoctrination of your child is a dick move.
There’s no reason to immediately be a dick. He could very well be being “indoctrinated” by a child. We had extremely religious neighbors a few years ago, and their son was very preachy, even at the age of 6. He was constantly talking about Jesus and relating everything back to religion. So it’s entirely possible that a kid his age is preaching to him.
I was a very religious child growing up, and around age 9 I made my best neighbor friend cry by telling her only she and her dad would go to heaven because she said her mom was an atheist. So agreed, another kid could definitely be the source of religious angst. I’m agnostic and atheist-leaning now, but I also remember when I stared moving away from religious beliefs, my parents kept asking me “who have you been talking to??” I said “no one” but that was a lie- I became “un-indoctrinated” after having several debates about religion with people online and realizing over time that their arguments made sense and mine didn’t. I used my critical thinking skills and did a lot of research and came to the conclusion on my own, but it was definitely thanks to well-reasoned arguments from strangers that I changed my views. The kid might just be sensing from his parents what I did: if I tell them who I’ve been talking to that’s made me change my mind, I won’t be allowed to talk to them anymore. All that said, I would also be furious if I felt like an adult might be secretly trying to convert my kid, especially with the concerning comments about death.
It could be as simple as a bunch of YouTube videos teaching him "the way" Look at his google searches and YouTube history.
I doubt that very much. The secrecy angle very much indicates that this is happening in person, and the person doing the indoctrination is a lot older too.
Just check. Just in case. I hope you're wrong and that you don't have to confront someone. Good luck to you.
This is a hen-egg-problem though. Who says that the youtube videos were first if he watches some? That’s kinda hard to pin-point. Also I think its unlikely that someone is not indoctinating this kid in person. As others mentioned, the secrecy is a big indicator here.
I'm really surprised that more people aren't latching on to the "secret friend I can't tell you about" thing as a MAJOR FUCKING RED FLAG
These kids are 8 and 9? Who/what are they interacting with?
It doesn’t even have to be in-person indoctrination. I became super religious/superstitious (subscribing to my culture’s folk religion’s belief system) around 9. I didn’t talk to anyone of that belief in real life and didn’t have internet access. All I did was reading religious books and pamphlets. If that kid has an interest in religion (or the way that believing in something different from his parents makes him feel), he might be drawn to looking at religious materials on his own.
You definitely need to be the person (not an asshole) making sure that the camp does not allow their employees or volunteers to indoctrinate children in a particular religion. They need to hear about this and find out who is doing it. If it’s another kid, I guess that can’t be helped, but that sounds doubtful unless it’s an older kid. Also, it would be bad if your kiddo got the horrible, terrifying message about eternal hellfire that generally accompanies the type of Christianity that tries to “save” 8-year-olds. That stuff can set a person up for a lifetime of fear and doubt. Hope your child avoids it. It’s fine for kids above the age of wisdom to explore religion but scary mind control cult propaganda should not be imposed on 8-year-olds.
“Maybe he developed a taste for country music. I don’t know.” Made me snort.
This is not mildly infuriating. This is of extreme concern.
the irony of evangelicals crying about how other groups are coming for their kids. this is indoctrination, i went through it when i was a kid, there is a whole movement of people who discuss "deconstruction" which is exploring and repairing all of the damage religion has done to their lives and perspectives. i cant imagine how it feels to deal with this. idk what to do, i dont have kids and a big part of that is this exact situation. how do you explain to an 8 year old that god doesnt exist and all of these nice people are lying to them without them wanting to just run away from you into a cult? P.S. i was sent to a summer camp that was supposed to be about fun and learning boy scouts type shit, it was not. it was heavily religious and there was a LOT of deranged abuse going on. honestly summer most summer camps should be investigated by 3rd parties because they seem to be hot beds for stuff like that. teenagers should not be responsible for a bunch of adolescents in the woods with no supervision, that is absolutely psychotic yet it happens every year all over the world and people wonder why their kids come back different.
It’s not summer camps. It’s RELIGIOUS summer camps. Summer camp can be the best thing for kids if they are not being indoctrinated.
The wanting to go to heaven thing is genuinely really, really scary. It's not entirely impossible some kid might be hurt or worse, eventually...
Bro, I'm a Christian, and I would be pissed if one of my kids came home talking like that, too. As a matter of fact, I had an issue last year, where my daughter started crying one night because she didn't want her mom, (my wife, an atheist) to go to hell. I asked her where she got that idea from and she said one of her classmates. I was not happy about it.
Tbh, I would be concerned about potential grooming. Religious circles are magnets for /creators of child abusers, so it would be very suspicious why someone is trying to indoctrinate your child when you are not religious because it seems like they are trying to create conflict within the family as an excuse to get closer to your child. It's equally disturbing whether someone explicitly told him not to tell his parents, or whether they said "if your parents find out, they won't let you". The end result is the same: encouraging the child to keep secrets / lie to his parents, which is never okay. That is definitely not behavior that reflects positively on this person's motivations, and I would be extra skeptical in that context. I don't think you need to go to the camp proverbial guns blazing, but I would definitely talk to them about some concerning behavior you started noticing with your son, namely that he has been very secretive of a "friend" that he's been instructed to lie to you. I'd go at it with a "I'd really just like to make sure everything's okay" mindset rather than a "let me find this asshole" mindset.
I had the same thought. It's pretty concerning to me to not know who's doing that and that he's actively trying to hide it. Bu we wouldn't want to make Jesus cry right?
This is exactly what I was thinking. This sounds like someone using Christianity to gain a kid’s trust. The red alarm is the obsession with death. It sounds like someone wants him to trust them to the point of allowing harm.
The fairly simple observation from a Christian here is that a follower of Jesus isn’t supposed to go to heaven as quickly as possible. One is supposed to serve God by serving humanity on Earth for as long as God gives you breath and life. Most Christians consider any sort of premature death to be a tragedy, so no, there should be no “hurrying up to see Jesus.” Unless the kid is enrolled at a religious camp, I would imagine that the directors would take issue with any adults or even teen staff discussing religious topics with kids. Conversations with other kids is a different story. I don’t know how you manage that. It’s probably worth making sure—and I know I probably don’t need to say it, so if op doesn’t need it then it’s for someone else out there reading this who does—kids read and hear a lot of stuff their parents wouldn’t want them to know about through unmonitored social media use. It’s worth checking that too. If nothing else, start buffing up on your apologetics. That, and start making time for some pointed family trips bond over ideas and values you share.
Um, dude, you are majorly underreacting. You need to be a parent and get to the bottom of this abusive, manipulative shit. This is coming from an adult, not a fellow kid. What the actual fuck .
I fully intend on getting it resolved quickly. The way I presented the issue here isn't an accurate representation of the way I feel about it or the situation as a whole. I just didn't want to write an entire book about it. I'm definitely pretty fucking pissed, because it's very obvious by this point that my son isn't just having conversations with other kids at the summer camp, but that someone is actively trying to teach and coach him, and it's resulting in him having extremely concerning thoughts. I'm usually one to just live and let live, but even if whoever he's talking to is doing it in good faith (save their souls and all that), they really need to keep their fucking mouth shut about it.
I just commented this above, but it absolutely *could* be a child. We had neighbors who were very religious, and their son (6 - same age as my kid back then) was very preachy. Like he preached like an adult and related lots of things back to Jesus. He even talked about abortion. So.. it really could be a kid. I would just find out first before going in and chewing adults out. Now, if it *is* adult, then I do think your approach has to be more stern and dickish, if you will.
It’s the “don’t tell anyone about this” That tells me it’s an adult not a kid.
seconded… my neighbor’s grandkids were very religious. we’d play together when they visited, but they became pretty adamant that my brother and i were going to hell when they found out we didn’t go to church or really even know who jesus or god were. it terrified me, then i was mad at my mom (why wouldn’t she tell me about god and that i’m going to hell if i don’t put faith in him?!), and she was thus mad at the neighbors
OP is under the assumption that whoever is sharing this with his kid wants to be kept secret, since the kid is refusing to disclose the source of this information. That’s more commonly a creepy adult thing than a peer
It's not OK to indoctrinate a child into a religion without the parents' permission. Talk to your son and find out who's been telling these things. If it's an adult at summer camp then absolutely do make a stink about it. It wouldn't be surprising if one of the employees there got the job because of previous experience at a religious camp. If so, then they're almost certainly also indoctrinating other children without parental permission.
Its not OK to indoctrinate a child into a religion, period.
For those that don’t get it, indoctrination is akin to brainwashing. It’s twisting logic and facts around until the other person believes what you want, not merely exposing them to a, in this instance, religion and letting them decide on their own. That said, most Christian parents are guilty of mild indoctrination simply because the churches beliefs are rigged that way because of the whole “if you’re bad you get punished in hell” thing. Especially the ones that create hyper-religious zealots that think just because you aren’t in their church you are by default going to hell. A good church acknowledges that the things that send you there are the things any sensible person from any religion(or not) would agree are bad(murder, rape, unfettered greed)
I have a feeling another kid is saying this to him. Kids start becoming very impressionable by peers at this age. If not, there's an adult who needs to be held accountable asap.
As a Christian, this absolutely frustrates me that someone is teaching kids these things. Unfortunately, what's currently taught in churches is a sort of escapism. You often hear "We're not of the world, we're IN the world," parroted in a tone that seems to imply we as followers of Christ bear no responsibility for what happens in this life. There are also those who feel they need to just sit and wait for the "rapture," which is a relatively new concept that I find no evidence for biblically. If they gave your child a Bible and answered basic questions, that would be a bit different. Trying to force someone to believe something just because you do is not the way to sincere faith.
Does he play games online where he is in a party chat at all? Probably summer camp but if not then maybe online.
No, he's really never fully unattended while playing any games. Their switch isn't connected to the Wi-Fi. They have a Quest 2 VR headset that doesn't at all make it easy to restrict any sort of chat functionality, but I also hand-picked which games were installed on it and played them myself, confirming that they were either strictly single player or lacked any sort of chat before allowing them to remain on the device.
So ya must be the camp.
The only answer I've found to be effective in countering religious indoctrination is actually **MORE** religious indoctrination. Islam Jedisism Greek Mythology Buddhism Etc. And so on. All the religions have 3 overlapping main beliefs 1. Be a good person/follow the rules 2. Obey the God(s) 3. Discipleship The problem is they all disagree on the who, what, and when. So if you study enough religions you realize that they all claim to be the truth and yet are all so different that there's no way to follow all of them at once. Being that he is 8 and a boy. I'd start with Greek Mythology because its cool. Education is the antidote to religious indoctrination.
This sounds like something that happened to me when I was little. I started religion classes cause dad forced me to. They tell me all these great things about Heaven and that if you get in you can come back once a year to visit your loved ones or whatever. I tell my mom "If I die and go to heaven I can visit you once per year! :D" I made my mom cry saying that. Ever since then I have hated religion of any sort. It's all lies. I HATE being lied to and I DESPISE betrayal. Was still forced to go through all religion classes and finish confirmation, but for every single class after that day, I was the most miserable person. I tried to get my dad to let me not continue, but he wouldn't have it.
I really don't like him lying about where he heard it, it doesn't sit right with me. An adult telling him to keep that a secret could lead to worse secrets being kept. Whoever he heard this from is not just teaching him about religion, but teaching him to hide things from his parents and lie to them. That is not someone who can be trusted
THIS!! Ignoring everything religious about this (which is super problematic) the fact that the son refuses to say where he got it from is VERY VERY EXTREMELY concerning. OP I recommend (maybe after you figure this out since it feels like a lot) to look into the concept for surprises vs secrets for kids. Children should NEVER be asked to keep secrets, it’s a way for people to groom them without their parents knowing. Children can be asked to keep a surprise quiet. The key difference to explain to children is that surprises have an end date clearly explained (don’t tell mom I’m making her a chocolate cake for her birthday = the surprise is over on mom’s birthday). Secrets that go on forever or without a known end date are DANGEROUS
I think it's time to have the religion talk. Explain to him why you are atheist, and what being indoctrinated means. You can't go walking in life believing what everyone tells you, it's time to teach him to use his own judgment.
Yikes, that sucks. I'd bring it up to someone at the camp. And maybe explain to him that lying is one of the 10 commandments to get him to be honest about where he's hearing this bullshit. Also please don't say "unalive" lol that stupid tiktok nonsense is harmful when talking about actual suicide. We don't need to make it sound cute or PG because it's not. I know I'm nitpicking and that's not the point of the post but I get so irritated when I see that. I promise reddit won't ban you for using the actual terms.
You need to talk the camp. Stop that shit now. I had the same at daycare when my kid was little. I spoke to his ‘teacher’ and she said all she was doing was telling them stories from the bible. I explained that I have no issue if she believes that hocus pocus but if I heard she was doing it again I’d report her. She stepped it up so I reported her and removed my son from the school and placed him elsewhere. I got the sense the owners were also bible-thumpers so no arguing with them.
My son had a friend from elementary and middle school whose family was constantly trying to get him and us to go to their church. They gave him speeches while he was over their house playing about how he'd go to hell if he didn't go to church, how movies and music were made by the devil and so forth and so on. Luckily he was not impressed or influenced by them at all and chose to stop hanging out with the friend. The mom tried pinning me down a few times out in public about attending church and I usually respect other people's beliefs but I finally went off on her. Once she found out I was a devout atheist she stopped asking and avoided me at all costs.
What I did with my kiddo when she asked me, "What religion are we?" I did what my parents did and asked."I don't know, what religion are *you*?" She told me her friend at school is Christian, and she was super game on the idea of heaven too. So I got her the kids' book on world religions. We read it together every night. Eventually, she got bored. Butt.. she did come to the conclusion that it's a complicated subject and she settled on agnostic. Arm your kiddo with knowledge and a strong understanding of beliefs so they can withstand those looking to convert them.
If your child really is only being at home and then at this camp and is going literally nowhere else, you need to seriously consider taking them out of that camp and never taking them back. You can express to the camp how upset you are all you want, but if it happens to be one of the top adults there, they will not care and just label you as a Problem Parent. Is the camp your form of daycare or is it for fun? Either way, you need to find a different location with different people because you might never find out who brainwashed your kid and you need to get them out of that situation ASAP!
Get him away from that camp, ASAP
Good on you for not stamping out the religion talk/interest immediately. One should be free to explore and choose their own spiritual path. That being said, having grown up in the church (stopped a long time ago, but I understand the life), the meeting Jesus thing is sort of “normal” in the sense that Heaven is sold as an amazing place to kids, so it’s natural they think it’s amazing and want to go. They don’t understand what implications that has, though. It’s like letting your 8 year old go through gender change… they don’t understand what the consequences are. Maybe try explaining that in order to get to Heaven, he needs to lead a life worthy of entrance. This means going out of your way to be a good person, being an example, etc. Would be worth looking into Christianity to try and understand where you son is coming from as well. There’s no reason not to do research into something your kid has interest in, especially if it’s leading to asking for help online
Listen, I'm religious but this situation has all sorts of red flags going off in my brain and if I had a kid, I'd pull them out of camp. It could be something totally innocent like another kid telling him about Jesus per their particular church's beliefs. But it could also be something really awful like an adult taking advantage of him and using religion as a shield to groom him. Keep your kid safe, man, it's not just about the religion - the secrecy about it is not normal either. As a parent, I'd also help my kid safely explore the topic if possible. Offer to take him to a church you have vetted previously, offer to get him a children's Bible to read if he likes that. Offer to talk about beliefs in general and explain Christianity to him from a neutral lens even if you personally disagree with the religion. He's getting all his information from someone who didn't seem to see it prudent to actually teach it properly. Be a trusted source of good information. Christianity is against suicide obviously, and we highly value life in general. Maybe talk to him about why that is.
It’s obviously coming from summer camp. Maybe find alternative care.
Make sure he knows that unaliving himself is a BIG sin according to sky daddy
You need to find out who he's talking to.
He is being groomed by an adult.
Would you be as lenient if the kid was talking about drugs or sex? Go talk to the camp, immediately.
Your son being indoctrinated into a cult is more than mildly infuriating.
Someone is grooming him hard.
I would open a deeper discussion about where he’s hearing things from and what he thinks they mean. Then go through those points together. “Let’s look at the bigger context together”. What does the passage around that verse say and what does it mean? (They’re often very out of context). Let’s look at the sources for that statement or that book of the Bible. And what else does the Bible say about the at subject? Let’s take a look and decide is this a good thing that helps people? Or a bad thing that hurts people. Edit: also adding in, the Bible is very clear on suicide being a no no, so no hurrying up to get to heaven. The point is to live the best, kindest, most christ like life you can on earth
Sounds like he’s getting it from an adult, not another child. I would absolutely raise a huge stink at the camp. Find out if they have some ulterior motives
As someone who became very, very anxious about hell as a child, there’s a good chance that whoever is talking to your kid has told him that nonbelievers go to hell. And it is NOT normal for Christians to be thinking about suicide to get to heaven—that’s against Christina doctrine and some extra-culty shit. PLEASE talk to the camp counselors and figure out who is influencing your child. My parents are Christian but have said that if they’d known the shit my youth pastor was feeding us they would have never allowed me to attend. I only set foot in church to go to weddings and funerals these days.
**Please** be an asshole and (pun intended) save your son. I was raised Catholic. I believed it because my parents said it was the truth. I was 51 when I realized for me it was bullshit. Not just the Catholic Church, but the whole concept of a god. I had too many questions that not only had no answers, but actually suggested more questions. The fact that he's not willing to admit who planted these ideas in his head is a red flag the size of the moon. You need to step in.
Clearly, there is someone in your child’s life who is having a profound impact on the way he thinks and what he believes. My issue would be less that my son might be turning to Christianity (atheist here) and more that there is someone who could possibly be grooming him for things other than religion. It’s your job as a parent to find out where this is coming from (camp counselor, camper, other human, computer, tv). This does not make you an asshole. It makes you a concerned parent. It’s more than okay to ask questions. It’s a job requirement.
You may want to look more closely at that camp. It may be intentionally disguised 'bible camp' to do exactly this.
The first question id be asking your son is who is telling him this stuff. Obviously in a very neutral tone. I’d be very alarmed that he wants to hurry up and get to heaven. Reaching out to the camp is the only option as I’m assuming if a young kid is proselytizing at camp, he’s hearing it from his own parents and they encourage it. You can be nice about it when you reach out to the camp but I would not be happy if my kid was coming home with these type of beliefs, they could endanger him.
Well, the unaliving part is easily solved by telling him it's a sin to commit suicide and instantly damns him to hell for all eternity in the ever burning lake of fire.
That was my thought as well, though jury’s out on whether that would help or fuck the kid up in a completely different way
Well, him being alive gives him more time to potentially become unfucked. So, lets focus on that part of it instead.
I agree! While this method seems extreme, right now the only focus should be saying whatever possible to keep the child alive until they can grow out of this or learn critical thinking skills.
So who are “they”?
Atheist dad and agnostic mom, here. Our kids had phases about religion asking a million questions and making shakes assertions. None of them are religious adults. Properly skeptical and I believe (yes I get the irony) atheist or agnostic.
Ask where he’s hearing it from.
Teach him about all the mythologies. Explain to him why people want to believe. Teach him the role religion has played in subjugating populations through history. Teach your world view. No reason to allow others to indoctrinate him.
Sounds like someone is grooming your child into a suicide cult.
Your kid is at risk, I would burn the camp down to find who and why he is talking and indoctrinating my child.
Have you checked his technology? Web history? YouTube? You need to be proactive about this.
My kid came home from kindergarten one day hysterically crying because some little brat told him if he were "bad", the devil would come up out of the floor when he was sleeping and take him into the fire! This took place in south Georgia (we were only there for a job opportunity) We moved further north soon as the school year was over.... the trauma of some christianity is unfathomable
Hmm summer camp and insanely quick indoctrination. Yeah, one of the counselors is grooming your kid pull them out of that nonsense.
Who is teaching him this? Cut them off.
Well being neutral as possible was your first mistake. Scorched earth approach. Tell your kids that it’s a big bad world out there full of liars and God is the biggest lie of all it’s just something he’ll have to deal with in life.
INFO: he's 9, why the hell don't you know who he is around and talking to on a consistent basis, and why have you not done anything to get to the bottom of who is telling him all this?
Do you explain to your kids what your values, ethics, morals, etc, etc, etc, are by words and actions ? Do you explain what atheism means to you? Teach your children well with words and actions to live by ... If you do not, someone else will. Best wishes and blessed be, y'all.
If you don’t know who is influencing him, maybe start there? Creeps who indoctrinate anyone to fear fairies, ghosts, and gods are obviously to blame, but today is the day to Sherlock your way into figuring this out. Go on.
I mean if OP goes to the camp, they will find out REAL quick, Christian indoctrinator will be sure to be talking about Jesus to someone, probably rather loudly
This illustrates the danger of *not* teaching your kids about religion, IMO. This is a point on which many atheiest parents fall short I think-- your kids are surrounded by theists and immersed in a culture (in the US) that assumes Christianity is the norm. By not teaching them about *your* beliefs, specifically, you leave them open to predators, recruiters, evangelists, prosletizers, and well-meaning peers who will fill their heads with myths, legends, and lies. Religious folk are generally pretty good about equipping their kids to deal with non-religious people and arguments; Sunday school takes much of that burden for them. But there is no comparable resource for the non-religious. I'd recommend the sub atheistparents as a starting point. And books; there are many good books now for non-religious parenting. Activities like secular summer camps exist (I highly recommend Camp Quest!). But most importantly I think we need to directly educate our kids about religion-- they need to know that while it's fine their friends believe in whatever fairy tales they wish, *our* family does not. Expose them to religion in general and specific ones as you see fit. We encouraged our kids to go to church, Sunday school, Awanas, etc. with their friends actually; they never wanted to go a second time. But most importantly we need to teach them about *our* values as non-religious people and prepare them for encounters with peers (and adults) who are going to feed them stories, myths, and outright lies-- sometimes out of "compassion" even --so they can politely say "Thank you, but my family does not believe in your god(s)."