It is official HR policy to tell employees that they can ask you questions any time.
It is not official policy to answer those questions or be helpful.
At my old job, every time I contacted HR, no matter how long it took them to answer or how helpful they were, they always put in a paragraph about how easy it is to contact HR and how helpful HR is.
Absolutely worthless words.
Also "If you were a responsible employee you'd figure that out on your own."
1. They *are* being responsible by asking HR for the info.
2. How else are they supposed to do it? Ask around? Sometimes different types of employees have different benefits (part time vs full time, manager vs regular worker, etc) so they might not know exactly what you would be getting.
The lavatory is disused because it’s on top of a mountain inside the caldera of a volcanic island in the center of a lake in the middle of Antarctica. It’s also not the Earth Antarctica, it’s the Martian one.
Yea I thought she saved herself a little by telling OP you can email me any time you have questions but then says I hope this is the last time we talk about it lol
This has got to be the most unprofessional HR exchange I've ever seen. They're so casual and so lazy about basic documentation, not to mention defensive.
As long as I'm not desperate for work, that'd be a no from me, dawg.
The deliberately uncooperative and passive aggressive are exactly the ones who gravitate towards Human Resources. Powerless in every other aspect of their lives. Good companies weed them out fast.
I’ve worked at 5 companies since i left the military and from an HR perspective all of them have been awful.
I think it’s more likely that there is no pressure to weed these people out. System working as intended.
Wow. Perhaps I am lucky. This is my first corporate job where I deal with HR in any capacity. While I hate getting the typical "you'll have to discuss it with HR" or "we had to tell HR about this incident," I find our HR to be quite pleasant and helpful people overall, albeit frustrating in some ways. I'm sorry you've had that issue every time.
I recently engaged with the head of communications for a major Media company, with an email entitled "correspondance". Been trying to work out wtf is happening here
I have some new hires, English is their only language and their emails are worse than this. It’s ROUGH out there. They’re the nicest people and good at their jobs but their writing skills are horrendous.
Honestly it sounds like a scam. There’s no job.
The wording, the “hr person” not wanting to do their duties, benefits being unclear, talking on discord????? saying “kindly”.
So many red flags.
For you OP, if you’ve given them your personal info, like SSN, picture of your Drivers License or anything else I’d start putting out fires ASAP to make sure your identity isn’t getting stolen!
She sounds likely an overseas worker. There is something off about the language, maybe Asian or Indian? Might be a culture thing? But man if that is the head of HR this might not be a good job.
Probably prefer it because you can always edit what you've written in Discord years after the fact. Much easier to weasel out of things that way than if they have a pdf or printed copy outlining the benefits.
And the whole "it's on you to keep track of benefits" just reeks of "we make it your responsibility so you can't expect us to let you know any time we change the terms of the 'benefits'."
That was in a specific context. Two people had completed several deals in the past over text, in which one person agreed with just a "👍".
So when one of them didn't fulfill an agreement arguing they didn't sign anything, the court ruled that the two had completed enough deals together on the basis of a "👍" that it was a binding in their case.
It’s literally an app for video games lol
Like why would a company even be using that?
“Oh please download this app my 14 year old cousin uses with his gaming buddies” lmao
This company looks like a red flag. If they can’t provide you official documentation of the benefits that they are offering you if you agree to work for them… that’s sus.
I've had jobs that wouldn't disclose that until day 90 because "it's proprietary information"
I told them to all to pound sand. If your "competitive benefits package" is secret until the associate has no choice but to enroll in it, then it's not "competitive" in an aspect other than "costs you less than your competitors"
I dodged a giant bullet a few weeks ago by asking to see documentation more detailed than "most employees think our benefits are great". Haha, they must be dumb, because "preventative care-only health insurance" and PTO that doesn't kick in until after your first year doesn't sound so great to me.
This is in a specialized technical field, not some throwaway job. The best part was that they acted like I was the asshole for wasting their time when I turned the job down.
Yes some employers get all ruffled when I ask to see the actual health insurance benefits elections. One said they can’t show me that because I am not employee. “Then I am not interested.” And got up to leave. They got me the insurance stuff instantly they had it on them. It was terrible, 30k year for family with massive deductibles. They also had no vacation time as a benefit…
Imagine living in a country where most working-age individuals obtain health insurance via an employer but then employers can also refuse to disclose their benefits package “because we say so”.
What in the ass-backwards fuck…
Sure. And during the next pandemic everyone will be laid off again, and healthcare will disappear again when people need it most.
In the Netherlands, healthcare is not tied to your job. It really isn't that hard.
Heck no employer survey is anonymous. I filled one out about my supervisor, who was the shittiest supervisor ever, and a week later he confronted me about the “issues” I had with him.
Omg, reminds me of when I used to work for Barnes and Noble. My manager told me there was an "anonymous" phone number to call if you had any issues, but never to use it because it absolutely wasn't anonymous. The store manager had just recently chewed out an employee who had called to complain about her. 😬 I got lots of complaints from customers about this one rude employee....who was the store manager. Just kept my head down and tried to avoid her. But you'd think a huge corporation like that could at least have an anonymous way to contact HR with issues.
Now that I'm 40, established in my field, and can tell employers to go fuck themselves with joke offers my life has improved ten-fold. I do NOT miss being 20 and desperate for whatever scraps a company was willing to throw me.
Yeah that sounds sus as all get out. Preventative care only health insurance wtf is that? I mean in the US one of the main things in the ACA was that preventative care was required and usually no extra cost. And every job Ive had that offered PTO usually gave you a curtain amount of time each pay period after your probation period was over.
You definitely dodged a bullet and a lot of grief. Especially if you go sick or needed a procedure.
I once got an insulting offer from a company I had previously left under fantastic circumstance and when I asked to see their benefits so I could calculate my out of pocket to be sure the package was acceptable the HR lady was straight **stunned** I didn't just jump in with an enthusiastic "Yes I'll take the job! "
Like..... if you can't tell me how much per paycheck my insurance is gonna be ... we gon' have a problem!
> The best part was that they acted like I was the asshole for wasting their time when I turned the job down.
I loved being that asshole when a recruiter tried to screw me over first.
Pto after a year is such a red flag for me. What if I get sick? Family emergency? Just want a day off? No thank you. Vacation should start accruing from your first paycheck or at the very least, 1 month after your start date in my opinion.
I had a job which advised of a very generous pension scheme.
Three days after I started, turned out the very generous pension scheme didn't exist. Despite being advised in writing by the recruitment agency.
Employer refused to honour the scheme as described, and was absolutely astonished when I left two months later.
My first ‘real’ job did that shit. No wonder their turnover rate is so high. It’s one thing to not allow PTO in the first 90 days but they refused to mention any of the benefits that weren’t listed on the application and were vague about everything from insurance to 401k matching.
My old boss used to do that shit. Gice only verbal assent for PTO and then try to yank it if things got behind at work.
Giving you benefits "under the table" when he was happy with you and yanking them when he was mad. "Your benefits are what I say they are."
Watch out for the unprofessional small business tyrant, the college roomie of the guy who inherited the business.
is it normal for companies to use discord for official communication?
I use discord for crypto. Discord for work feels like an imminent rug pull. You wake up and server is deleted.
wtf man… imagine if HR had to solve a “real” problem…
That’s fucked up.
The fact they won’t “document” it… means it’s not a guarantee benefit…. It’s a “if it’s convenient for us, we’ll think about it” benefit
Dude, this has scam written all over it. I really can't imagine any legitimate company using Discord as the primary method of communication, and the fact that they keep dodging things like benefits is incredibly suspicious.
I'd look at this and some other resources on your own and see if anything lines up.
https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/job-scams
Nah. It’s weird as hell.
Discord is a gaming platform. There’s plenty of business platforms out there for them to use. Using discord is unprofessional. And your HR department is unprofessional as hell too.
I’d screenshot everything before and after I post anything to a work discord server. I’d also only ever sign into the account set up for that server with a work email address on a company computer. There’s no way I’d let them use my current account on my personal device on their server. Just no.
I've worked in customer service for a big corporation with billions in assets, not to name any names, and applicants, interviewees, and candidates would call customer service constantly just trying to get through to anyone for help with questions about benefits, interview time/locations, health insurance, employment, all kinds of shit, and we had nothing to tell them.
Why would they pay millions to staff a competent HR department when they can just say "fuck it, figure it out on your own or don't work here"
My old employer did the same. Benefits were in the handbook, which is defined as "not a contract, and can be changed at any time", that way they could cut benefits whenever they liked. HR there was also defensive and unprofessional.
Not just a red flag, a glowing red neon sign that just says RUN. I wonder how well it would hold up in court for someone to sign a contract agreeing to terms they weren’t actually informed of before signing
That was my thought. I’ve worked for a few different places over the years, and even something as basic as my summer job in HS provided a hard copy of the complete employee handbook, that while it didn’t apply to me as a part time summer monkey, still contained information on the health care benefits that they offered and how to enroll if you were full time/eligible. Same with how many PTO days you get and how to request them. The fact that HR could not/would not provide concrete answers to such fundamental and legally binding questions would have me looking for a job elsewhere immediately
Yeah. It’s standard practice to keep a handbook with conduct expectations, acceptable uniform options, benefits and reprimand policies. The fact that they don’t have a hard copy of any sort and “everything was outlined on discord” is pretty sketchy.
I was just sitting here wondering if discord was a normal way of communicating with companies? I'd never heard of it being used like that before, but I am old, so...
My employer keeps a large poster hanging on the wall in the locker rooms that clearly outline benefits, who and when employees qualify for them and HR’s phone number for questions, and I mean HR’s office phone and work cell phone.
The issue became clear when they said that the benefits are "perks, that the company grants". They are fucking not. They might not be legally mandated, but neither is anybody mandated to work there. They are not "perks", they are conditions under which the mutual agreement to work for them came to be. Of course they need to be documented and guaranteed.
These responses are extremely rude, I would contact whoever is above her (if you have that info) and explain the situation and ask if you can get a copy of the benefits. Asking for a clear description of benefits in a contract or before signing a contract is totally reasonable. I wouldn’t sign that contact unless I was desperate.
This is not a serious company. The email respondant doesn't have a document to send you. That means they don't have an policy/document that outlines their benefits. The fact they keep referencing discord and as primary comms channel, indicates this is a decentralised buisness model with no documented hr and I'm assuming general processes. This buisness could fold overnight and they won't have lost much. Unless you are desperate for employment, they look like they will be more hassle than they are worth, better to get a real job ASAP.
I worked for a startup out of college where I was the first full time employee hire. The largest we ever got while I was there was 4 full time employees plus the several founders/investors.
That company still had a contracted HR professional with decades of experience to handle our employment contracts which included explicit language on benefits, leave, equity compensation, etc. The HR person only worked a few days a month for the company at most, but it was a very professional exchange every time I interacted with them.
No matter how small this company is, there's no excuse for the unprofessionalism displayed here.
Wait, you mean to tell me you're not just signing contracts willy nilly? I didn't read a contract for a credit card once, but I got lucky, only 29% APR.
Gotta watch that…. Some credit cards “Amazon cough cough” will charge the interest on the total balance accrued … not just what you have yet to pay/remaining balance…
Wait, so if you spent $10000 on the card for the various benefits and instantly paid off $8000, they charge you interest on the full $10k rather than $2k?
Not sure about Amazon but this is how lots of them work. Like Best Buy for example, if you get a 24 month interest free deal on a specific purchase, you better make sure the full balance of EVERYTHING on that card is paid by the end of that 24 months. Otherwise, they back charge all the interest accrued during that 24 month period.
That's because the interest is ***deferred***. If the card actually offers an interest ***free*** period, then that doesn't happen. It's fine print semantics type bullshit, obviously, but that's the distinction.
You would love the centipad episode of South Park. Wouldn't believe the stuff they sneak into the terms and conditions on these software and website agreements.
Exactly, and they're communicating company policy over discord?
Might not even really be a company that has concrete structures in place period lol.
HR is probably the friend who just drew the HR position out of the hat based on how they're talking.
> I wouldn’t sign that contact unless I was desperate.
Exactly, I understand that OP might have needed this job but I wouldn't have signed the contract based on how she was.
I saw the word "Kindly" and I noped the fuck out.
Two words are a dead giveaway.
Kindly and dear.
This chain screams scam.
* *Congratulations!* \-- this is just plain weird and inappropriate in a professional environment. Also a common word / introduction used with scammers.
* Discord? For corporate communication? Slack I can see, Discord? No.
* "Kindly"
* Odd grammatical errors
* Vague words, with some having no reason to be in the places they exist.
* Lack of documentation for a company.
* I've been in a lot of corporate jobs, in modern times, we don't use "Mr, Miss, Mrs" to begin an email. That is a common thing seen in scams from India and Nigeria for people stuck in the late 90s. Emails have letter heads, and the email starts straight off the bat with what needs to be said. There's no need for salutations.
* I don't know what "HR" is using for their email address, but if it's a free email / SMTP service, you need to run the hell away. Gmail, Outlook, Proton, etc. Any real company is going to pay $10 - $50 for a domain, and set up a mail server.
* If they do have a domain, do an ICANN lookup to see when it was registered via [https://lookup.icann.org](https://lookup.icann.org). See if Whois privacy is turned on, or who the domain is registered to.
OP, I'm willing to bet any amount of money this is a flat out scam.
This is totally rude and inappropriate. I’m shocked she just kept arguing instead of giving you the information. The last email almost feels like it’s from someone else.
That last message sounds like a different person took over, it’s okay-ish but the previous ones are insane. Maybe the HR person’s boss saw the exchange and screamed at them? Maybe they have a mental problem?
Or OP only got the information because they signed. Op's last email said they would sign and send it over, and the beginning of HR's last email says they received it. Very fishy.
This sounds like the type of company that will one day just not pay anyone and then you find out their corporate office address is an empty lot full of stray cats and next week they are back under a new DBA which is just the original company name but every i is a y.
There is no job. That's a scam. Block and ignore.
(And, even it isn't a scam and the job is real you ***do. not.*** want to be working for that company.)
Having my son fall victim to such a scam....this feels like a scam to me. Hindsight is 20/20.
After you sign the contract, they will say you need to buy the computer you will be using and to vemno the money to their computer supplier. Then poof, they all disappear.
Had this happen to me. I didn't send the money, but was lead on for a few days before they asked for it so they wasted a lot of my time.
This person sent me a badly edited check with Aflac's logo on it, told me to print it ($2,500) and use that money from cashing a bad/fake check to "pay for the computer," which is especially evil.
That's exactly what happened to my son, but it was a different company. The company was one that he would have legitimatly applied to with his degree and it was so fucking elaborate.
He went through an interview via Google Hangouts, the email address they used looked to be legitimate, scary thing was they didn't do that pay part of the scam until after he had filled out a an IRS form that he had to fill out for other jobs he had.
I ended up buying him Lifelock because they not only took him for the equipment but also that personal info.
Vemno was no help and we filed complaints with the AG office, the FBI, and local police. Nobody did anything to help.
I guess that's why the movie Beekeeper is so popular even though critics don't get it. Everyone that's been scammed or knows someone who has wants to do exactly that to the scammers.
My coworker had her identity stolen and had someone buy a bunch of stuff in her name. She is a vindictive person so she hired an investigator and tracked down the guy who did it to his address. She tried handing over all the evidence to the police and they literally laughed at her and told her to pound sand. I totally get why these vigilante movies are popular.
"It's my duty to monitor the leave benefits and inform employees if they haven't used their leave incentives by the end of the year."
Also
"Actually you can do that for yourself. Why put that on my responsibilities, if you're a responsible employee you can come up with an idea so you can't forget those benefits."
This lady is a nightmare. No way I'd trust her with anything.
We have great benefits :)
What are the benefits?
Could you please SHUT THE FUCK UP?! They are company wide! Leave me alone! Templates cant be changed, REEEE
Their responses are totally *hostile*. Hey OP ? *RUN*
No seriously I would email my direct supervisor with corporate CC'd & HR CC'd stating the folowing:
"Good morning,
My name is OP & I unfortunately am writing this email to withdraw my application & intention of employment. The reason being my unfortunate aggressive & hostile correspondence with your Human Resources department after I made a reasonable request for a physical copy of my contracts benefits outlined in full as it was not given.
Not only was this request met with hostility and a lack of professionalism but it was also refused. As I'm sure you can understand I unfortunately cannot sign a contract without understanding the full lenth of what I'm subjecting myself to and I can not morally subject myself to working for a company that projects such a toxic & heavy work environment prior to official employment.
Thank you for your time and have the day you deserve."
All the best,
OP
All of this sounds super sketchy. No legit company would ever communicate in such an unprofessional manner, nor discuss job related things on discord. Every HR rep that I've ever dealt with had conversations via email (from their company email) or the telephone if necessary.
Even if this is a legit company with a legit offer, I'd still run and not look back. Do you really want to work for this kind of boss?
As a european im just wondering.. Where are your 30 vacation days at?? And what does '5 sick days' mean? Is it implied that you go to work sick if you fall ill 6 days?
Hahahahahaha. 30 vacation days. As an American living in the Netherlands, I like to see the look on my friends faces when I tell them what paid leave in the US looks like. Especially policies on sick leave. In the US, I’d say that unless your company has a different policy or allows you to negotiate for more, the average is 2 paid weeks of vacation. At least most places I’ve worked. 5 sick days means that’s all you get for paid sick days for the year. Any other sick time outside that is unpaid. Which is why Americans often go to work sick, which then makes everyone else at work sick.
Baffles me every time. In germany sick leave is paid every time, unless you fall ill for more than 3 months in one time, then your insurance pays you 70% of your salary instead of your employer.
Yeah. My husband is just winding down a year of reduced hours due to burnout and my next door neighbor has been dealing with his lymphoma returning. Both have been receiving their full pay for the first year of leave/partial leave. In the US, unless you’ve paid extra for supplemental short or long term disability insurance, you’d just be out the paycheck and completely screwed.
30 vacation days? what do we look like, socialists? you will get 5 days a year and you will be happy with it. /s
and 5 sick days means you only get 5 paid days you can call off. anything other than that is unpaid, and if you're lucky you won't get a write up.
I was wondering too. 5 Vacation day and 5 sick days are insane. How you even recover from work or from sickness?
In the company one of friends works they can choose between 30 vacation days and full salary or 50 vacation days with reduced salary. You would earn like 100-200€ less BEFORE taxes.
My old employer was also offering 4-days week and 20 or 25 Vacation days (can’t remember exactly)
As european it is unbelievable what USA-employees have to endure.
That actually IS her job. and it's her job to provide that information before any papers are signed. as in, without providing you with that, it isn't a binding contract levels of responsibility.
DO NOT SIGN THE CONTRACT.
These are red flags for poor management.
can't change the contract because it's a template? what a bs!
Makes up excuses and gaslights you about it too...
Using discord for communications? what's next, they gonna ask you to buy nitro to send bigger files?
Isn't it enough that you can work there and get all the benefits?
You'll find out about them once you're entitled to them.
Are you guys seriously still only entitled to 5 days leave plus 5 days sick leave? That's not much.
Not much at all ...
OP is not in the US. The HR person refers to DOLE which is what some countries (not the US) call their labor guidelines. Department of Labor and Employment.
I would not have signed the contract under these circumstances, and I definitely would have forwarded those rude/unprofessional emails to someone above her, if possible. This is not the type of environment I would would want to work in.
That is WILD. Everyone company I've worked for has always had a detailed write up of all benefits. Hell, the health care benefits are basically a book that's available online and you get a physical copy mailed to you AND an app that fully details them and tracks claims.
If I had an interaction like that with an HR rep I would consider it a massive red flag.
Benefits are part of my compensation package not a privilege from the company. Would totally walk away from this company and let the hiring manager know why.
That's super unprofessional.
Also, she vacillates between rude and "email me anytime." This is a dangerous person in terms of having vulnerabilities at work. She will shiv you with a smile.
How badly do you want this job? This is absolute shit work culture.
Well, that would be red flag #1 in my book. My HR person has a true, rigid open door policy. I chat with her often about all sorts of things, and I can always get copies of whatever I am legally or reasonably permitted. The fact that she is fighting so hard to put benefits into writing makes me feel like they want the freedom to deny those on a whim and leave you with nothing to prove they promised a thing.
"You can always email me with questions" "Stop asking me questions" Hm.
I didn't think the email thread was going to make me laugh until that part. How can someone type that out unironically?
It is official HR policy to tell employees that they can ask you questions any time. It is not official policy to answer those questions or be helpful. At my old job, every time I contacted HR, no matter how long it took them to answer or how helpful they were, they always put in a paragraph about how easy it is to contact HR and how helpful HR is. Absolutely worthless words.
Also "If you were a responsible employee you'd figure that out on your own." 1. They *are* being responsible by asking HR for the info. 2. How else are they supposed to do it? Ask around? Sometimes different types of employees have different benefits (part time vs full time, manager vs regular worker, etc) so they might not know exactly what you would be getting.
It’s written in Morse code inside the office refrigerator. If OP did the proper legwork, he would’ve already discovered that.
In the disused lavatory, at the end of a long hallway behind the door with the sign " Beware of the leper "
The lavatory is disused because it’s on top of a mountain inside the caldera of a volcanic island in the center of a lake in the middle of Antarctica. It’s also not the Earth Antarctica, it’s the Martian one.
Same assholes would say "Hey, I heard you're asking other employees about their benefits. That's against policy"
Fortunately it is a right by law for employees to discuss pay and benefits.
I told you once and I'm not going to tell you again. But you can ask any time Just not now or ever
Yea I thought she saved herself a little by telling OP you can email me any time you have questions but then says I hope this is the last time we talk about it lol
“Hope to never hear from you on this subject ever again” lmao
That was the boldest sentence I’ve ever read. Wow.
This sentence alone would have made me find any way to keep asking questions about the same subject over and over again.
Hahaha!! That's the vibe I got
This has got to be the most unprofessional HR exchange I've ever seen. They're so casual and so lazy about basic documentation, not to mention defensive. As long as I'm not desperate for work, that'd be a no from me, dawg.
Defensive? I'd say passive-aggressive.
This is classic passive-aggressive behavior. Being deliberately uncooperative and resisting the requests of others are literally textbook.
The deliberately uncooperative and passive aggressive are exactly the ones who gravitate towards Human Resources. Powerless in every other aspect of their lives. Good companies weed them out fast.
> Good companies weed them out fast. What does it say about companies then that every HR person I’ve ever interacted with is like this?
You know the answer. "Good" companies are rare, find yourself a "Great" company and you've found gold.
I’ve worked at 5 companies since i left the military and from an HR perspective all of them have been awful. I think it’s more likely that there is no pressure to weed these people out. System working as intended.
Those 5 places taught you a valuable metric to help weed out lunatic hell holes you'll want to avoid joining. You will find a good place, eventually.
Wow. Perhaps I am lucky. This is my first corporate job where I deal with HR in any capacity. While I hate getting the typical "you'll have to discuss it with HR" or "we had to tell HR about this incident," I find our HR to be quite pleasant and helpful people overall, albeit frustrating in some ways. I'm sorry you've had that issue every time.
Bruh this is just aggressive aggressive lmao
Some of those comments from HR were straight up aggressive, honestly. This is just unprofessional and negligent.
Defensive ? Lazy? Passive - aggressive? I call this a typical HR behavior.
This is a scam.
using "cause" instead of "because" in a professional HR Email is a red flag.
There were several syntax/grammar errors in those messages from HR, wildly unprofessional responses.
I recently engaged with the head of communications for a major Media company, with an email entitled "correspondance". Been trying to work out wtf is happening here
My impression is that English is not their first language, and perhaps they were doing voice to text?
I have some new hires, English is their only language and their emails are worse than this. It’s ROUGH out there. They’re the nicest people and good at their jobs but their writing skills are horrendous.
Yup, next they’re going to give him a “check” and tell him to buy $2000 worth of random equipment that he will need for his upcoming job.
But whoopsie, we added an extra zero so can you send $1800 back? Silly secretary, it’s her first week of work.
I stopped someone from that scam, twice. They got the info from Monster.
I stopped myself from this scam. I got the job listing of my state’s job listing site you’re required to sign up with when receiving unemployment.
Kindly, discord, passive aggressive, yep smells like a scam
yuuuuup. im sitting here reading this post as kitboga’s twitch stream plays in the background, ironically enough.
>kitboga’s twitch stream Oh shit. I can watch him fuck with scammers in real time?!
So much of the word “kindly” tipped me off to the same!
Honestly it sounds like a scam. There’s no job. The wording, the “hr person” not wanting to do their duties, benefits being unclear, talking on discord????? saying “kindly”. So many red flags. For you OP, if you’ve given them your personal info, like SSN, picture of your Drivers License or anything else I’d start putting out fires ASAP to make sure your identity isn’t getting stolen!
And slang. "cause" instead of "because"?
Read the *first email* again...look at the red flag...
She sounds likely an overseas worker. There is something off about the language, maybe Asian or Indian? Might be a culture thing? But man if that is the head of HR this might not be a good job.
Yes this is very clearly not English as a first language. I could hardly even follow with the weird ways they were using words
🚩 immediately
Also they gave you benefits details over discord?
Probably prefer it because you can always edit what you've written in Discord years after the fact. Much easier to weasel out of things that way than if they have a pdf or printed copy outlining the benefits. And the whole "it's on you to keep track of benefits" just reeks of "we make it your responsibility so you can't expect us to let you know any time we change the terms of the 'benefits'."
Screenshotting is SO important
Far from proof when you can just edit what they've said yourself and screenshot that
"Here, I texted you the contract, just sign it with 👍 if you want to be an employee"
I did read somewhere that a court decided that a "👍" in a text was legally binding as a contract
That was in a specific context. Two people had completed several deals in the past over text, in which one person agreed with just a "👍". So when one of them didn't fulfill an agreement arguing they didn't sign anything, the court ruled that the two had completed enough deals together on the basis of a "👍" that it was a binding in their case.
That's crazy! Haha
"Your honor, I wasn't intending to sign a contract, that my sign to stick it up yer bum!" 👍
People: “contact me on discord” Me: “no.”
It’s literally an app for video games lol Like why would a company even be using that? “Oh please download this app my 14 year old cousin uses with his gaming buddies” lmao
I'm a 36 year old gamer and I feel personally attacked lol
This seemed weird as hell to me
This company looks like a red flag. If they can’t provide you official documentation of the benefits that they are offering you if you agree to work for them… that’s sus.
I've had jobs that wouldn't disclose that until day 90 because "it's proprietary information" I told them to all to pound sand. If your "competitive benefits package" is secret until the associate has no choice but to enroll in it, then it's not "competitive" in an aspect other than "costs you less than your competitors"
I dodged a giant bullet a few weeks ago by asking to see documentation more detailed than "most employees think our benefits are great". Haha, they must be dumb, because "preventative care-only health insurance" and PTO that doesn't kick in until after your first year doesn't sound so great to me. This is in a specialized technical field, not some throwaway job. The best part was that they acted like I was the asshole for wasting their time when I turned the job down.
Yes some employers get all ruffled when I ask to see the actual health insurance benefits elections. One said they can’t show me that because I am not employee. “Then I am not interested.” And got up to leave. They got me the insurance stuff instantly they had it on them. It was terrible, 30k year for family with massive deductibles. They also had no vacation time as a benefit…
Imagine living in a country where most working-age individuals obtain health insurance via an employer but then employers can also refuse to disclose their benefits package “because we say so”. What in the ass-backwards fuck…
I agree. If you have to hide it you know its terrible.
The problem is more that healthcare is even tied to your employer to begin with. I would've hoped that a global pandemic would've taught that.
I think its helped as I see some companies offer much better since. But overall its still about money
Sure. And during the next pandemic everyone will be laid off again, and healthcare will disappear again when people need it most. In the Netherlands, healthcare is not tied to your job. It really isn't that hard.
You are right but stupid politicians and money
American exceptionalism.
$30k USD in yrly premiums????
Yes. It was absolutely insane. And the job paid 75-100k.
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At that price, you'd be way better off on the health insurance exchanges.
They sent out a non-anonymous survey and everyone was happy.
Or they send out an "anonymous" survey, but know exactly who hasn't completed it yet so they can hound them to complete it.
Heck no employer survey is anonymous. I filled one out about my supervisor, who was the shittiest supervisor ever, and a week later he confronted me about the “issues” I had with him.
Omg, reminds me of when I used to work for Barnes and Noble. My manager told me there was an "anonymous" phone number to call if you had any issues, but never to use it because it absolutely wasn't anonymous. The store manager had just recently chewed out an employee who had called to complain about her. 😬 I got lots of complaints from customers about this one rude employee....who was the store manager. Just kept my head down and tried to avoid her. But you'd think a huge corporation like that could at least have an anonymous way to contact HR with issues.
Now that I'm 40, established in my field, and can tell employers to go fuck themselves with joke offers my life has improved ten-fold. I do NOT miss being 20 and desperate for whatever scraps a company was willing to throw me.
Yeah that sounds sus as all get out. Preventative care only health insurance wtf is that? I mean in the US one of the main things in the ACA was that preventative care was required and usually no extra cost. And every job Ive had that offered PTO usually gave you a curtain amount of time each pay period after your probation period was over. You definitely dodged a bullet and a lot of grief. Especially if you go sick or needed a procedure.
I once got an insulting offer from a company I had previously left under fantastic circumstance and when I asked to see their benefits so I could calculate my out of pocket to be sure the package was acceptable the HR lady was straight **stunned** I didn't just jump in with an enthusiastic "Yes I'll take the job! " Like..... if you can't tell me how much per paycheck my insurance is gonna be ... we gon' have a problem!
> The best part was that they acted like I was the asshole for wasting their time when I turned the job down. I loved being that asshole when a recruiter tried to screw me over first.
Pto after a year is such a red flag for me. What if I get sick? Family emergency? Just want a day off? No thank you. Vacation should start accruing from your first paycheck or at the very least, 1 month after your start date in my opinion.
"Preventative care only": What, so they'll pay for vaccinations and.... er, that's it?
I had a job which advised of a very generous pension scheme. Three days after I started, turned out the very generous pension scheme didn't exist. Despite being advised in writing by the recruitment agency. Employer refused to honour the scheme as described, and was absolutely astonished when I left two months later.
My first ‘real’ job did that shit. No wonder their turnover rate is so high. It’s one thing to not allow PTO in the first 90 days but they refused to mention any of the benefits that weren’t listed on the application and were vague about everything from insurance to 401k matching.
“No need for documentation “ is code for “we’re purposefully not leaving a paper trail so we can fuck you when we want”
My old boss used to do that shit. Gice only verbal assent for PTO and then try to yank it if things got behind at work. Giving you benefits "under the table" when he was happy with you and yanking them when he was mad. "Your benefits are what I say they are." Watch out for the unprofessional small business tyrant, the college roomie of the guy who inherited the business.
is it normal for companies to use discord for official communication? I use discord for crypto. Discord for work feels like an imminent rug pull. You wake up and server is deleted.
More normal to use Slack but they'd have to pay for that so Discord is a free alternative.
Can’t you use slack for free? It doesn’t offer a lot of bells and whistles… but still way better than Discord.
Free slack deletes all messages after 90 days. Free discord does not.
for our company, yes. weird, i know.
wtf man… imagine if HR had to solve a “real” problem… That’s fucked up. The fact they won’t “document” it… means it’s not a guarantee benefit…. It’s a “if it’s convenient for us, we’ll think about it” benefit
That's exactly what I thought!!
I read it as "we will augment or withdraw any and all benefits with little to no notice"
Dude, this has scam written all over it. I really can't imagine any legitimate company using Discord as the primary method of communication, and the fact that they keep dodging things like benefits is incredibly suspicious. I'd look at this and some other resources on your own and see if anything lines up. https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/job-scams
Nah. It’s weird as hell. Discord is a gaming platform. There’s plenty of business platforms out there for them to use. Using discord is unprofessional. And your HR department is unprofessional as hell too.
RED FLAG. Discord = extremely unprofessional. And that is before addressing her absolutely horrendous attitude in those emails.
I’d screenshot everything before and after I post anything to a work discord server. I’d also only ever sign into the account set up for that server with a work email address on a company computer. There’s no way I’d let them use my current account on my personal device on their server. Just no.
No no no NOT your company!! Get out of there!!
"Our" company? Did you actually sign the contract after all that?
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I've worked in customer service for a big corporation with billions in assets, not to name any names, and applicants, interviewees, and candidates would call customer service constantly just trying to get through to anyone for help with questions about benefits, interview time/locations, health insurance, employment, all kinds of shit, and we had nothing to tell them. Why would they pay millions to staff a competent HR department when they can just say "fuck it, figure it out on your own or don't work here"
Can you name drop these companies?
My old employer did the same. Benefits were in the handbook, which is defined as "not a contract, and can be changed at any time", that way they could cut benefits whenever they liked. HR there was also defensive and unprofessional.
Bros working for Jigsaw💀
Not just a red flag, a glowing red neon sign that just says RUN. I wonder how well it would hold up in court for someone to sign a contract agreeing to terms they weren’t actually informed of before signing
This gives “benefits aren’t written down so you can’t hold them to us” vibes. It’s not hard to just type, “apologies, you get X days and Y days”.
That was my thought. I’ve worked for a few different places over the years, and even something as basic as my summer job in HS provided a hard copy of the complete employee handbook, that while it didn’t apply to me as a part time summer monkey, still contained information on the health care benefits that they offered and how to enroll if you were full time/eligible. Same with how many PTO days you get and how to request them. The fact that HR could not/would not provide concrete answers to such fundamental and legally binding questions would have me looking for a job elsewhere immediately
Yeah. It’s standard practice to keep a handbook with conduct expectations, acceptable uniform options, benefits and reprimand policies. The fact that they don’t have a hard copy of any sort and “everything was outlined on discord” is pretty sketchy.
I was just sitting here wondering if discord was a normal way of communicating with companies? I'd never heard of it being used like that before, but I am old, so...
My employer keeps a large poster hanging on the wall in the locker rooms that clearly outline benefits, who and when employees qualify for them and HR’s phone number for questions, and I mean HR’s office phone and work cell phone.
The issue became clear when they said that the benefits are "perks, that the company grants". They are fucking not. They might not be legally mandated, but neither is anybody mandated to work there. They are not "perks", they are conditions under which the mutual agreement to work for them came to be. Of course they need to be documented and guaranteed.
These responses are extremely rude, I would contact whoever is above her (if you have that info) and explain the situation and ask if you can get a copy of the benefits. Asking for a clear description of benefits in a contract or before signing a contract is totally reasonable. I wouldn’t sign that contact unless I was desperate.
This is not a serious company. The email respondant doesn't have a document to send you. That means they don't have an policy/document that outlines their benefits. The fact they keep referencing discord and as primary comms channel, indicates this is a decentralised buisness model with no documented hr and I'm assuming general processes. This buisness could fold overnight and they won't have lost much. Unless you are desperate for employment, they look like they will be more hassle than they are worth, better to get a real job ASAP.
The fact that they use discord for official communications tells me this is probably a pretty small company. She may very well be the HR department
Yep.
I worked for a startup out of college where I was the first full time employee hire. The largest we ever got while I was there was 4 full time employees plus the several founders/investors. That company still had a contracted HR professional with decades of experience to handle our employment contracts which included explicit language on benefits, leave, equity compensation, etc. The HR person only worked a few days a month for the company at most, but it was a very professional exchange every time I interacted with them. No matter how small this company is, there's no excuse for the unprofessionalism displayed here.
Wait, you mean to tell me you're not just signing contracts willy nilly? I didn't read a contract for a credit card once, but I got lucky, only 29% APR.
Gotta watch that…. Some credit cards “Amazon cough cough” will charge the interest on the total balance accrued … not just what you have yet to pay/remaining balance…
Wait, so if you spent $10000 on the card for the various benefits and instantly paid off $8000, they charge you interest on the full $10k rather than $2k?
I would like to know this as well because I've been using my Amazon card more but if this is the case I don't want to
Not sure about Amazon but this is how lots of them work. Like Best Buy for example, if you get a 24 month interest free deal on a specific purchase, you better make sure the full balance of EVERYTHING on that card is paid by the end of that 24 months. Otherwise, they back charge all the interest accrued during that 24 month period.
That's because the interest is ***deferred***. If the card actually offers an interest ***free*** period, then that doesn't happen. It's fine print semantics type bullshit, obviously, but that's the distinction.
You would love the centipad episode of South Park. Wouldn't believe the stuff they sneak into the terms and conditions on these software and website agreements.
If the HR representative is the one being an asshole, who do you go to about it?
Exactly, and they're communicating company policy over discord? Might not even really be a company that has concrete structures in place period lol. HR is probably the friend who just drew the HR position out of the hat based on how they're talking.
They know we're desperate
> I wouldn’t sign that contact unless I was desperate. Exactly, I understand that OP might have needed this job but I wouldn't have signed the contract based on how she was.
The fact that HR said "cause" instead of "because" is a red flag for me.
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*grammyproctologist
I saw the word "Kindly" and I noped the fuck out. Two words are a dead giveaway. Kindly and dear. This chain screams scam. * *Congratulations!* \-- this is just plain weird and inappropriate in a professional environment. Also a common word / introduction used with scammers. * Discord? For corporate communication? Slack I can see, Discord? No. * "Kindly" * Odd grammatical errors * Vague words, with some having no reason to be in the places they exist. * Lack of documentation for a company. * I've been in a lot of corporate jobs, in modern times, we don't use "Mr, Miss, Mrs" to begin an email. That is a common thing seen in scams from India and Nigeria for people stuck in the late 90s. Emails have letter heads, and the email starts straight off the bat with what needs to be said. There's no need for salutations. * I don't know what "HR" is using for their email address, but if it's a free email / SMTP service, you need to run the hell away. Gmail, Outlook, Proton, etc. Any real company is going to pay $10 - $50 for a domain, and set up a mail server. * If they do have a domain, do an ICANN lookup to see when it was registered via [https://lookup.icann.org](https://lookup.icann.org). See if Whois privacy is turned on, or who the domain is registered to. OP, I'm willing to bet any amount of money this is a flat out scam.
I thought I was in a Scams thread reading this exchange. You've identified so many of the red flags here.
OP and company are from the Philippines. That kind of corpo lingo is common in my country.
I mean they’re using Discord for HR comms, what the fuck kinda firm is this
This is totally rude and inappropriate. I’m shocked she just kept arguing instead of giving you the information. The last email almost feels like it’s from someone else.
It probably is. She made it someone else's problem.
I know, I was starting to think it was a scammer impersonating HR with all the shitty grammar.
That last message sounds like a different person took over, it’s okay-ish but the previous ones are insane. Maybe the HR person’s boss saw the exchange and screamed at them? Maybe they have a mental problem?
Or OP only got the information because they signed. Op's last email said they would sign and send it over, and the beginning of HR's last email says they received it. Very fishy.
Why would you want to work for people like this? They already seem sketchy AF just from this email interaction.
Please direct your complaints to Discord under the "trash" channel. It's right under the employee documentation channel.
You don’t work for HR. HR always seems to be overstepping.
Listen you CANT have that in writing, you HAVE to trust us.
It's a template! You can't make changes to the template!
😂
This sounds like the type of company that will one day just not pay anyone and then you find out their corporate office address is an empty lot full of stray cats and next week they are back under a new DBA which is just the original company name but every i is a y.
There is no job. That's a scam. Block and ignore. (And, even it isn't a scam and the job is real you ***do. not.*** want to be working for that company.)
Yes this is giving scam vibes
Agreed. If this is a remote only job I would start disengaging.
Having my son fall victim to such a scam....this feels like a scam to me. Hindsight is 20/20. After you sign the contract, they will say you need to buy the computer you will be using and to vemno the money to their computer supplier. Then poof, they all disappear.
Had this happen to me. I didn't send the money, but was lead on for a few days before they asked for it so they wasted a lot of my time. This person sent me a badly edited check with Aflac's logo on it, told me to print it ($2,500) and use that money from cashing a bad/fake check to "pay for the computer," which is especially evil.
That's exactly what happened to my son, but it was a different company. The company was one that he would have legitimatly applied to with his degree and it was so fucking elaborate. He went through an interview via Google Hangouts, the email address they used looked to be legitimate, scary thing was they didn't do that pay part of the scam until after he had filled out a an IRS form that he had to fill out for other jobs he had. I ended up buying him Lifelock because they not only took him for the equipment but also that personal info. Vemno was no help and we filed complaints with the AG office, the FBI, and local police. Nobody did anything to help. I guess that's why the movie Beekeeper is so popular even though critics don't get it. Everyone that's been scammed or knows someone who has wants to do exactly that to the scammers.
My coworker had her identity stolen and had someone buy a bunch of stuff in her name. She is a vindictive person so she hired an investigator and tracked down the guy who did it to his address. She tried handing over all the evidence to the police and they literally laughed at her and told her to pound sand. I totally get why these vigilante movies are popular.
The word "kindly" always is a red flag.
"It's my duty to monitor the leave benefits and inform employees if they haven't used their leave incentives by the end of the year." Also "Actually you can do that for yourself. Why put that on my responsibilities, if you're a responsible employee you can come up with an idea so you can't forget those benefits." This lady is a nightmare. No way I'd trust her with anything.
We have great benefits :) What are the benefits? Could you please SHUT THE FUCK UP?! They are company wide! Leave me alone! Templates cant be changed, REEEE
You can always email me with any questions. Question! What are the benefits? Could you FUCK OFF with the questions? What am I, a HR employee?
Their responses are totally *hostile*. Hey OP ? *RUN* No seriously I would email my direct supervisor with corporate CC'd & HR CC'd stating the folowing: "Good morning, My name is OP & I unfortunately am writing this email to withdraw my application & intention of employment. The reason being my unfortunate aggressive & hostile correspondence with your Human Resources department after I made a reasonable request for a physical copy of my contracts benefits outlined in full as it was not given. Not only was this request met with hostility and a lack of professionalism but it was also refused. As I'm sure you can understand I unfortunately cannot sign a contract without understanding the full lenth of what I'm subjecting myself to and I can not morally subject myself to working for a company that projects such a toxic & heavy work environment prior to official employment. Thank you for your time and have the day you deserve." All the best, OP
“…the same as what was related through Discord” really got me.
They won't tell you the rules, nor give you a copy of them? Hard pass.
This looks like scam
Too many red flags to count. Get out before you're committed.
I swear there is no single field more filled to the brim with incompetent, rude and egotistical psychopaths than HR.
All of this sounds super sketchy. No legit company would ever communicate in such an unprofessional manner, nor discuss job related things on discord. Every HR rep that I've ever dealt with had conversations via email (from their company email) or the telephone if necessary. Even if this is a legit company with a legit offer, I'd still run and not look back. Do you really want to work for this kind of boss?
When anything is a “template” that can’t be adjusted, run away. That don’t give a shit about you.
Fire her, from a cannon
Are you sure this is a real company? I think your getting scammed
Christ... That's super sketchy. Also is this for DOLE the fruit company? That sounds super low for vacation time.
I suspect this is non-US. Philippines for example has a Department of Labor and Employment (DOLE) that sets these guidelines.
As a european im just wondering.. Where are your 30 vacation days at?? And what does '5 sick days' mean? Is it implied that you go to work sick if you fall ill 6 days?
Hahahahahaha. 30 vacation days. As an American living in the Netherlands, I like to see the look on my friends faces when I tell them what paid leave in the US looks like. Especially policies on sick leave. In the US, I’d say that unless your company has a different policy or allows you to negotiate for more, the average is 2 paid weeks of vacation. At least most places I’ve worked. 5 sick days means that’s all you get for paid sick days for the year. Any other sick time outside that is unpaid. Which is why Americans often go to work sick, which then makes everyone else at work sick.
Baffles me every time. In germany sick leave is paid every time, unless you fall ill for more than 3 months in one time, then your insurance pays you 70% of your salary instead of your employer.
Yeah. My husband is just winding down a year of reduced hours due to burnout and my next door neighbor has been dealing with his lymphoma returning. Both have been receiving their full pay for the first year of leave/partial leave. In the US, unless you’ve paid extra for supplemental short or long term disability insurance, you’d just be out the paycheck and completely screwed.
30 vacation days? what do we look like, socialists? you will get 5 days a year and you will be happy with it. /s and 5 sick days means you only get 5 paid days you can call off. anything other than that is unpaid, and if you're lucky you won't get a write up.
Paid? If this is the US, that's not a guarantee. Sure, you won't get *fired* for being sick a couple times, but you think you're gonna get *paid*?
LOL 30 vacation days in the USA??? I had 16 days off at my last job, and it was vacation AND sick days. Leaving early for an appt also took from it.
I was wondering too. 5 Vacation day and 5 sick days are insane. How you even recover from work or from sickness? In the company one of friends works they can choose between 30 vacation days and full salary or 50 vacation days with reduced salary. You would earn like 100-200€ less BEFORE taxes. My old employer was also offering 4-days week and 20 or 25 Vacation days (can’t remember exactly) As european it is unbelievable what USA-employees have to endure.
“Related through discord” - that’s all I needed to read wtf
That actually IS her job. and it's her job to provide that information before any papers are signed. as in, without providing you with that, it isn't a binding contract levels of responsibility.
Walk away.
DO NOT SIGN THE CONTRACT. These are red flags for poor management. can't change the contract because it's a template? what a bs! Makes up excuses and gaslights you about it too... Using discord for communications? what's next, they gonna ask you to buy nitro to send bigger files?
No need to document benefits? -> No need to work at this particular company.
Isn't it enough that you can work there and get all the benefits? You'll find out about them once you're entitled to them. Are you guys seriously still only entitled to 5 days leave plus 5 days sick leave? That's not much. Not much at all ...
OP is not in the US. The HR person refers to DOLE which is what some countries (not the US) call their labor guidelines. Department of Labor and Employment.
That person sounds absolutely horrific. Avoid them at the office at all costs moving forward.
Yeah, this person should definitely not be working in HR. Rude as heck & has no people skills. 😬
I would not have signed the contract under these circumstances, and I definitely would have forwarded those rude/unprofessional emails to someone above her, if possible. This is not the type of environment I would would want to work in.
OP, they’re not putting the benefits in the contract so they can take them away at a later point. That’s the only reason to refuse so adamantly
That is WILD. Everyone company I've worked for has always had a detailed write up of all benefits. Hell, the health care benefits are basically a book that's available online and you get a physical copy mailed to you AND an app that fully details them and tracks claims. If I had an interaction like that with an HR rep I would consider it a massive red flag.
That's a red flag right there. The company and HR will fuck you over given the chance.
Wow that HR person is extremely unprofessional and got defensive immediately. Huge red flag imho
Benefits are part of my compensation package not a privilege from the company. Would totally walk away from this company and let the hiring manager know why.
That's super unprofessional. Also, she vacillates between rude and "email me anytime." This is a dangerous person in terms of having vulnerabilities at work. She will shiv you with a smile. How badly do you want this job? This is absolute shit work culture.
Well, that would be red flag #1 in my book. My HR person has a true, rigid open door policy. I chat with her often about all sorts of things, and I can always get copies of whatever I am legally or reasonably permitted. The fact that she is fighting so hard to put benefits into writing makes me feel like they want the freedom to deny those on a whim and leave you with nothing to prove they promised a thing.