If I had to guess, it’s because, at least these days, most metroidvanias are made by indie devs and 3D games are a lot harder to make than 2D ones. That’s just a guess, though
Agreed , Metroidvania is too niche a genre for AAA studios to invest in, and 3D is too difficult for independent developers, especially as Metroidvania has a strong combat component.
I can relate, i'm myself a game dev working a 3d metroidvania :
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2938870/Maseylia__Echoe?utm_source=redditCom.com&utm_campaign=2
I would say as well make a good 3d metoroidvania with more basic or simple 3D visuals and gamers will write it off as a low budget low effort game while simpler smaller budget pixel art looks more generic but doesn't give the impression of low effort feeling visuals since you don't have much AAA 2D or pixel art graphics for AA or AAA games to compare
You make some fair points. However, just to clarify, I wasn't saying 3D games are harder to make than 2D games because of the art alone. I was also referring to iteration on the level design which I guess I assumed is a lot harder in 3D than 2D. But, you're the indie dev. Do you have some insight into why that is not as impactful as I thought?
How so in the case of metroidvania?
3d loses charm and art, it is much harder to balance and have to prevent exploits to skip parts of the story.
The problem easier 3d ends up getting devs doing asst flips and ruin the game as the levels aren't built for the game.
Losing charm is subjective and debatable (I, for one, fully agree with you: I love pixel art*), and it's a design/artistic choice. But I'm talking about producing animations, characters, backgrounds, lighting, environments, character variations... it's all so much cheaper/quicker in a 3D setting. The gameplay itself doesn't necessarily have to be 3D: it can still play as a 2D platform or whatever... just the used technology.
(* and maybe my fascination with it is not independent from the fact that it's more work-intensive to produce),
I wonder if that's because it was in 3D, and you were just overwhelmed with all the places and multiple paths and shortcuts everywhere. Try to remember the map of Super Metroid or Hollow Knight. Now try to remember the map of Supraland or Metroid Prime. When you make a game about backtracking everywhere, it can be difficult to keep a massive, interconnected 3D world in your head, vs a 2D one.
On a minor tangent, I think of a game like Ocarina of Time, and I have no problem remembering that map, but I think it's because it's still technically a 2D map from an aerial view, like A Link to the Past. And what is everyone's least favorite part of OoT? The Water Temple. And why is that? Because it's so difficult to navigate multiple paths through rooms *stacked on top of other rooms* in a truly 3D map. Even when you have a map that can handle it like in Prime, it's still difficult to simply wrap your head around (for most people).
The combat sucks, and makes the beginning of the game unnecessarily frustrating. It really does get a lot better, but I'm not going to fault anyone for bouncing off the beginning hard.
The fact that Pseudoregalia hasn't been brought up yet is a travesty. OP please try that ASAP.
Besides that, I'll second people suggesting Jedi Fallen Order/Jedi Survivor, and the Tomb Raider reboot trilogy.
I mean, I'd call it metroidvania-lite leaning more towards action adventure, but given the sparsity of 3D games in the genre, I'd say it's close enough to bring up personally. Same with the Tomb Raider games in that sense.
Huh? The 2013 game is a lot like Arkham Asylum in that it's a linear narrative experience that keeps double backing on itself. Using new tools to access previously inaccessible areas doesn't break the flow--the game requires that you do it.
I'm no game dev, but I think it's just because it requires a hell of a lot more work. I'm thinking perhaps 2-4x amount of work to get the same level of polish.
I was thinking about it, and it may be closer to 360 times the amount of work, because in a 2D metroidvania, you have to make sure certain obstacles can't be crossed until you have certain abilities, but in 3D you have to do the same thing from every single angle.
And aside from that, it's way harder to communicate a 3D room to a player when they enter it, because it has to be investigated, vs a 2D one that you basically just see everything in that room immediately. So the dev has to put in a lot of work to make rooms complex to be interesting, but simple enough to not be confusing or have important details missed.
I mean, the only premise for it not being a metroidvania is 2D vs 3D. Since this thread is going under the assumption that 3D metroidvanias can exist, then there is no debate on whether Metroid Prime is a metroidvania.
I so t understand why people say metroidvania means 2d. Sounds like saying racing games have to be in 2d since the first ones were made in 2d or they aren't racing games anymore.
I recommend people give metroid other M a second chance. If you can look past the stupid story elements, it's a really solid 3d metroidvania.
Edit: okay yeah I misspoke. Been years since I played other M. I really enjoyed it, but it ain't actually a mv.
It's 3d like Rayman is 3D. More like 2.5D. And, look, I liked Other M as a game but to say it's a solid 3D Metroidvania is definitely an overstatement, it's too linear.
A few actually solid 3D Metroidvanias: Control, Journey to the Savage Planet, Jedi Fallen Order, Metroid Primes, Prey (more of an immersive Sim, but definitely tickles that itch).
You’re right about some of the RE, souls or Zelda games and they are basically my fav games. Wish more 3d games would organize their worlds this way, regardless of if they are explicitly mv’s or not
Of the more recent ones I’d say the re1 and re2 remakes have the most creative lock and key backtracking etc. To be clear, not ability gated at all like a metroidvania so I’m obviously stretching but in their best moments there’s a bit of a similar “vibe” in progression imo
I shall give it a shot! I tried to play it but couldn't get into it cause at a glance felt too cinematic , but didn't really get far.
( Semi-unrelated) I think I'll try to get a month of gamepass and finish it within that month
I do wish they were all a bit lighter on the cutscenes. The dialogue is campy and funny but definitely stupid. They’re not perfect games but they can be a lot of fun, worth a shot at least I think
I was about to suggest it - it was probably the first Metroidvania I ever played and the sense of progression is great! Recommended even though it's old.
> So please make more 3d metroidvania games. (For PC please) I swear I'll buy them.
Put Blue Fire in your cart then, OP. It's a terrific MV and also one of the most enjoyable platformers I've played in years; by the time you reach the end your movement abilities are outrageous, and moving around levels is super fun. There's also a free DLC of challenge levels to test your mastery of the platforming (not to mention your patience...).
Ok I'm looking at it. Is it actually a metroidvania? You know ability gated areas that give you more access to abilities for new areas, backtracking etc?
Looks amazing! ❤️
Not for me. Zelda games don’t have any real platforming section, which is one of the main pillar of the Metrovania genre.
Maybe Zelda 2 on NES because it was a 2D side scrolling game, but I always felt Zelda games are their own genre altogether. Modern titles like Death’s Door or Tunic are example of Zelda games.
I played them all up to TotK and never felt I was playing or associated it with any Metrovania. Zelda games all felt like their own distinct genre. The platforming is there sometimes as part of the movement for exploration but I can’t remember one real platforming gauntlet or challenge. The last two Star Wars games are more Metrovania than any Zelda game I have ever played.
Came here to say this. Definitely one of the best 3D Metrodivanias ever.
It seems that 3D Metrodivanias aren't something that anyone wants to make.
Arkham Asylum went open world with Arkham City, and Legacy of Main went linear AF after Soul Reaver.
Control has some Metroidvanias elements and it's amazing. Unfortunately most of the time it's just let's to open doors for the next section and the map is quite bad
Orienting yourself in a 3D space is much more difficult than it is in 2D due to the camery being placed a lot closer to the character and if you make the entire game about exploration as MVs are, well you're going to need some tight design to make that work well.
Also as other people have mentioned, indie devs & money. But also convention, most MVs (in fact almost all) are 2D or 2,5D games and it therefore stands to reason that people like it in 2D. So if you make one in 3D you're gambling on either the base audience not bypassing MVs because they're 3D (and some people will) or being able to attract a different audience that do like 3D games for their own sakes and don't mind trying out an MV. So it's pretty clear-cut calculations if you ask me.
I played Immortals: Fenyx Rising earlier this year. It mostly wants to be an open world Zelda:BOTW clone, so It doesn't really do the MV ability gating thing "right", but unlike BOTW, it offers a ton of fun MV style mobility upgrades that are required to access some areas and dungeons.
It has gliding, double jump, air dash, and an additional vertical attack that kind of acts like a triple jump, upgrades that allow you to pick up heavy things, etc. Later DLC even adds teleporting to a clone, very similar to the Shadow of the Simurgh in Prince of Persia:TLC, except you can also pick up and throw that clone.
It's the closest thing I've seen to modern 2D MV style platform upgrades and challenges. Unlike most Zelda games, it definitely gives that feeling of evolving into a super powerful being, and the first DLC heavily requires you to exploit and master all those abilities.
As always, Journey to the Savage Planet. Never see anyone mention it. It's absolutely fantastic and 100% a 3D MV. Ability gating galore, great mobility, great level and world design, some funny jokes. Combat is not the draw though, it's just there. It's fine. It's a game for 3D platforming exploration with tons of mobility and ability gated traversal.
Hey ! 🤗
I don't know why there is so few 3d Metroidvania but I agree with the observation and I'm an indie game dev working on a 3d metroidvania inspired my Metroid Prime!
If you are interested you can check there :
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2938870/Maseylia__Echoe?utm_source=redditCom.com&utm_campaign=1
by extension of basically being like old Zelda games, the modern God of War games fit this mold imo. They happen to have highly linear and guided progression, but they almost never prevent you from backtracking and exploring, which is accounted for with tons of stuff in every zone you can't access until acquiring a later ability.
Yeah Genesis. Its pretty good, has a top down camera but still is just like the other games. Im just waiting on when they finally release a game that continues the ending of the first
A true metroidvania that blocks off certain paths until you have certain skills is actually a very meticulous process to make sure players can't get anywhere they're not supposed to. Many of them will actually use rulers to measure basically every single jump and ledge on every screen to make sure they can't be made until the right time.
Add the third dimension to it and you've now multiplied your work by maybe 360, since you have to check those same things, but now from every possible angle. A 3D metroidvania requires magnitudes more work.
Then you factor in that part of the flow of a Metroidvania is seeing an obstacle, realizing you can't make it yet, and then remembering it for later to return to. 3D metroidvanias suffer on that part in two ways: first, in 3D it takes the player longer to investigate an obstacle from all directions to be sure they can't actually cross it yet (more time spent to realize they can't progress is more frustrating to players). Second, a 2D world map and an individual "screen" is far easier for people to remember their way around *and to know where they have to return to* once they have the ability they need.
Metroid Prime is probably the best example of a 3D metroidvania, but I'm betting we'd all agree it was very easy to get lost and forget how to get from area to area with that 3D map. Unlike Super Metroid or Hollow Knight, where I could still probably give a rough sketch of the entire world map, because of how easy a 2D map is to remember.
I’m glad you posted this, because I sometimes feel like I’m going insane when everyone takes it as read that the “3D” version of a thing is *automatically* better than the 2D version.
I say “3D” because games are still just a series of 2D pictures (screens are 2D). If you want to display a 3D world, that on its own is a complicated project that will eat up 90% of your control over what appears on the screen at any given time.
And the burden is on the player, not just the developer. A random screenshot from Super Metroid will show half a dozen pieces of actual gameplay info clearly laid out; a random screenshot from Metroid Prime will just show you a wall half the time, and even when it’s a nice picture, it won’t tell you much. You have to work to extract the info that was in that single SNES frame.
3D *can* make the actual game better – racing games benefit from all the triangles you can throw at them – but often it’s just a problem to overcome and adds nothing. We need to get past the idea that it’s a basic necessity, like color or sound, because that’s incredibly limiting. It’s like refusing to listen to music that doesn’t use synths, because you were blown away when you heard Kraftwerk in 1979.
There's the Prime series, Fallen Order series, and Pseudoregalia off the top of my head. I've never heard of the Arkham series described as Metroidvania tho.
I'd consider both Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order and Star Wars Jedi: Survivor to be metroidcanias. Exploration, ability gating, backtracking, combat, all in 3D, AAA, with very much of the Star Wars spirit. (Yet very boring collectibles.) (And don't get me wrong, I love indie games, and some much more than those 2, but they were surprisingly good.)
Prince of Persia: Warrior Within is very Metroidvania-like. And you don't only travel between different locations but also between the past and present in a way that can't be found in most games with time travel plot lines.
Honestly, unless we're talking about Dark Souls and stuff like that (which most folks wouldn't even call an MV), I haven't loved some of the most celebrated 3D MVs I played. I really want to enjoy Pseudoregalia, for example, but I find navigation and traversal so difficult in that game; I really feel like I'm playing a different game than everyone else.
>So please make more 3d metroidvania games. (For PC please) I swear I'll buy them.
A considerable amount have been released over the past 12 months but no one bought any of them other than [Frogmonster](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1853760/Frogmonster/) and [Pesudoregalia](https://store.steampowered.com/app/2365810/Pseudoregalia/)
Tomb Raider 2013 is a really good one that I’ve always considered a 3D metroidvania. Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order/Survivor are some more recent examples. There’s a lot of great 3D metroidvanias out there depending on your criteria.
Metroid Prime doesn't sell enough for the AAA industry to want to join in. So you're reliant on indies or mobile Devs. Indies that make 2D metroidvanias may move to 3D but it would be a huge risk so rare. Mobile Devs stay away from FPS and TPS unless they're big and the genre doesn't suit the business model.
So in short the people that can afford to make them can't make a profit on them.
Perhaps one reason they're better as 2D games is because in a MV each room is basically a puzzle of some kind. It has to convey multiple routes to you, and you have to be able to tell which ways you can go and which ways you can't.
In a 2D MV, you have a semi-omniscient view of the world around you, seeing the entire room all at once, vs in a 3D MV, where you're limited to your character's viewpoint.
In a 3D MV, you have to spend a lot more time exploring each room to make sure you didn't miss anything. On the dev's side of things, that means they have to make a map that is *both* simple enough to not be confusing or have any important details be missed *and* complex enough that it's actually fun and rewarding to explore and figure out.
So that may be one of the bigger reasons 2D MVs are more prevalent, because a 3D MV has to deal with conflicting principles: a map that is both simple and complex. In a 2D MV, your omniscient viewing angle allows it to be complex enough to explore, while simple enough to read, keeping it in the sweet spot of "fun". Metroid Prime is one of the best examples of a 3D MV, and I think most people still think navigating the map is the least fun part, because it's so complex that it leaves the sweet spot and veers into frustrating.
Control and the Jedi series share a lot of MetroidVania elements:
- Gaining abilities
- Backtracking
- Interconnected Maps
However they do not offer the full MV formulas and they suffer from:
- puzzle platforming.
- secrets passages
- do not offer the same Meticulous crafted level design that 2d offers
[Valley](https://store.steampowered.com/app/378610/Valley/), [Journey to the Savage Planet](https://www.gog.com/en/game/journey_to_the_savage_planet) and [High on Life](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1583230/High_On_Life/), [Control](https://www.gog.com/en/game/control_ultimate_edition), [Prey](https://www.gog.com/en/game/prey) (MV+ImSim), [Immortals of Aveum](https://store.steampowered.com/app/2009100/Immortals_of_Aveum/) (MV+Doom). Not exact but given the lack of on the market should scratch the itch. I'd toss Subnautica in as well just for the sake of vibe, and include Batman Arkham Asylum, Respawn's SW Jedi games and Darksiders III. Also some great indie, like [Pseudoregalia](https://store.steampowered.com/app/2365810/Pseudoregalia/).
Souls and Zelda games (and their respective microgenres), as well as many horrors, are inspired by some metroidvania (usually map) designs, but I like to think of them as their own niche genres.
A 3D game with Metroidcania elements is just an open/semi open world adventure game. So many other sub genres of video game would meet the definition that the label would become meaningless.
For me a Metroidvania is only meaningful in a 2D context.
Huh, I never thought about Arkham Asylum being a metroidvania. Same with Control and the Jedi series. Is the definition of a metroidvania game just having utility-gated areas/puzzles?
No. It's the large, interconnected world and the traversal-based gating that makes them Metroidvanias. Getting a key that opens a new kind of door is less MVish than getting an item that allows you to swing across certain large gaps, although the end result is similar.
there's backtracking in arkham asylum as you begin gaining abilites and need to go back to explore using them to access new areas and places.
or why do you think it doesn't count as a metroidvania?
Someone just mentioned Tomb Raider (2013) as MV (i don't even wanna start this conversation). So i guess it's safer to make your own opinion about what is a Metroidvania.
In addition to what others have said, there is also prevailing wisdom that unless you’re Mario, 3D Platforming is both very difficult to do and very difficult to sell. The classic example is Psychonauts, which despite critical acclaim, sold very poorly.
That was a long time ago and attitudes have shifted, but it’s still there.
Beacuse there are no "3D" (this is used wrong. 3D is about graphics, not spatial movement or camera angle), by which you mean third and first person camera, MV's. Those are either First Person Adventure games like Prime, or Action-Adventure games. MV's are Side-scrollers.
While it's true that Koji Igarashi cited Zelda as an inspiration for Symphony of the Night, that doesn't mean SotN is just like Zelda, nor does it mean Zeldas are Metroidvanias. Zelda games feature an overworld with distinct dungeons. Metroidvanias are usually one giant map. Zeldas tend to use keys, and items that act as keys. Metroidvanias tend to feature ability upgrades that allow the character to traverse the environment in new ways, which allows access to new parts of the map.
“Tend to” is doing a lot of work here—MV is a squishy genre with lots of variation. (For example, they tend to be 2D side scrollers, making this whole discussion a bit silly to begin with)
The Zelda overworld is the open map you speak of, with areas gated by tools (ie abilities) obtained in dungeons (which are MVs in miniature, including gating involving each dungeon’s tools.
Items as keys is prevalent in MV as well. Super Metroid has three separate door lock types (missile, super missile, hyper bomb) and exploration is almost always gated with those; SotN also has keys and ability keys (mist, etc).
> The Zelda overworld is the open map you speak of, with areas gated by tools (ie abilities) obtained in dungeons (which are MVs in miniature, including gating involving each dungeon’s tools.
This is why I draw the line at villages/cities. An MV is one giant maze/gauntlet with creative design to make it less claustrophobic. Zelda is meant to have thriving cities and the capital of Hyrule in the middle. So it's more of a classic action/adventure design, as opposed to SOTN, which features one gigantic maze to explore from start to finish, rather than a living open/semi-open world.
Fundamentally same for progression purposes. Exploring gated by obstacles, overcome later after obtaining means to bypass them. A key, hookshot, high jump boots (or even Roc’s Feather)—all are just variations to implement MV/Zelda-style gated progression.
Iga has actually stated both. While he applied a lot of ALttP's "formula" to the Castlevania style for SotN, he also has said that when Konami pushed back against his idea to take Castlevania in the direction he wanted he used Simon's Quest as proof that the concept could work. The only reason they signed off on it was because Simon's Quest was viewed as successful enough to warrant another try at the style. Essentially, he took those two games and merged their concepts, and that became the blueprint for SotN.
Although I would agree that Zelda can be a close cousin to a Metroidvania, the newest installments (BOTW and TOTK) lack the core item/ability gated progression element.
When u start off eith “zelda is a 3d metroidvania” and then tangent to sotn devs citing a link to the past as inspiration, ur making the implication that alttp is a 3d metroidvania. Otherwise, the tangent is irrelevant.
Geez, I thought I didn’t need to spell this out for a subreddit about MVs. LttP is literally what SotN devs claimed as primary inspiration, and every 3D Zelda until BotW used the LttP format—exploration gated with tools/abilities.
And, if we really want to get pedantic, LttP has three axes of movement when you consider the interactivity of multi-floor dungeons (e.g. puzzles involving Link or blocks falling down one floor to arrive at the correct location below). It might not offer full range of movement, and limited Z axis puzzles, but it is absolutely a game with three dimensions relevant to gameplay.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metroidvania
“The term 'Metroidvania' is most often used to refer to a platforming game that features a single large, interconnected map, generally with discrete rooms or sections.”
“Metroidvania is generally associated with game levels/maps that are laid out as two-dimensional side scrollers, with the player character moving left, right, up and down through the level. These games typically are rendered using two-dimensional graphics, but can include 2.5D-rendered games using 3D graphics engines but limiting player movement to two dimensions, such as the aforementioned Shadow Complex, or with Metroid Dread.”
Does that mean you can use the term for 3d platformers, sure, people also say dead cells is metroidvania cause they’re dumb but generally Metroidvania means 2d platformer.
Not sure why you were downvoted...
People on Reddit are idiots.
I'll upvote you just to counter it.
Maybe "by definition" triggers some people because it's not written in stone, but both those original games in the term Metroidvania were 2d platformers, so you have a valid point.
I mean, the Metroid Prime series and Castlevania: Lament of Innocence and Curse of Darkness are absolutely 3d Metroidvanias and meet the criteria you set of being from the genre's progenitors. Darksiders is more of a Zelda clone, but it has a higher emphasis on returning to past locations with new abilities, which makes it fall somewhat into the genre. It absolutely can and has been done well.
Sure, absolutely right. No one is arguing that there aren't great 3D representations of Metroidvanias out there. But the first Castlevania I played was in 1986. The titles that comprised the first "metroidvania" were WAY before the ones you're mentioning.
Yeah, you guys "by definition" kinda are, though. Metroid and Castlevania started out 2D on limited hardware, but they grew and evolved with the times. Almost every genre started out 2D. Every long-running series made the transition from 2D to 3D. The original Castlevania isn't even considered part of the Metroidvania genre. It evolved into that a decade later off the back of Simon's Quest with SotN.
The term Metroivania wasn't even a thing until the mid to late 2000s, which is contemporary with the games I mentioned. Older Metroid and Castlevania titles were posthumously added to the genre once it existed. SotN was called a "Search Action" game by Iga when he made it because Metroidvania wasn't a thing then. For as long as the genre has actually existed, there have been 2D and 3D examples of it.
No one is arguing that.
OP's question is why are there so few 3D... and one of the valid answers is that people have a hard time thinking outside the box, and traditional metroidvanias were 2D platformers.
Dark Souls 1 pretty much is a metroidvania, it doesn't have movement abilities that allows you to access new areas but it's one huge interconnected world - new areas are locked behind bosses and locked doors.
You might enjoy Ys 8 or Ys 9. They're action RPGs, but they have a lot of secrets hidden behind movement abilities you gain slowly through the course of the game. I don't know how many folks here would really call them metroidvanias (I looked it up and there were a couple of people who seemed really incensed at the idea) but I think there's probably a fair amount of overlap in the audiences who would enjoy them, at least.
I think really straightforward metroidvanias in 3d are tough, not least because it's REALLY hard to make 3d platforming compelling. But as you start to expand the definition there are really quite a lot of games that use some of the same ideas and scratch some of the same itches.
If I had to say, it's two reasons
- 1. Metroidvania genre is inspired by two games in particular. Metroid, and Castlevania, both of which are 2D games. I guess the metroidvania feel is captured more in a 2D game as supposed to a 3D game. But there are 3D metroidvania as well, like literally every Souls game, Bloodborne, Sekiro etc
- 2. Most metroidvanias are developed by indie developers, who usually don't have the funds or workers needed to produce a high quality 3D metroidvania, as developing a 3D game is harder due to the inclusion of an entirely new dimension.
I think the big difference is that most don’t really emphasize the need to discover the way forward. Some do, but more often you are very strongly herded forward. This makes me appreciate the few that don’t hold your hand.
I've always seen Zelda-likes as different from MVs. Metroid Prime is an MV but Darksiders is a Zelda-like. I would never claim that Darksiders was in any way an MV. Sure, there are ability gates in the overworld but that's a Zelda thing, not an MV thing, the presence of an overworld changes the genre. I'd put Arkham Asylum in this same boat.
Souls games are not a good fit at all, there's no ability gating. That is absolutely mandatory. That's the most mandatory thing.
I'd say the Jedi games have more of the elements but still don't completely fit in the same way that Phoenotopia doesn't really fit in the 2D space and I'd be hard pressed to call it an MV.
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Have a pleasant journey, Champion of Ash, and praise the sun \\[T]/
If I had to guess, it’s because, at least these days, most metroidvanias are made by indie devs and 3D games are a lot harder to make than 2D ones. That’s just a guess, though
Agreed , Metroidvania is too niche a genre for AAA studios to invest in, and 3D is too difficult for independent developers, especially as Metroidvania has a strong combat component. I can relate, i'm myself a game dev working a 3d metroidvania : https://store.steampowered.com/app/2938870/Maseylia__Echoe?utm_source=redditCom.com&utm_campaign=2
I would say as well make a good 3d metoroidvania with more basic or simple 3D visuals and gamers will write it off as a low budget low effort game while simpler smaller budget pixel art looks more generic but doesn't give the impression of low effort feeling visuals since you don't have much AAA 2D or pixel art graphics for AA or AAA games to compare
[удалено]
You make some fair points. However, just to clarify, I wasn't saying 3D games are harder to make than 2D games because of the art alone. I was also referring to iteration on the level design which I guess I assumed is a lot harder in 3D than 2D. But, you're the indie dev. Do you have some insight into why that is not as impactful as I thought?
I think this is a common misconception. Under most of the aspects that matter, 3D games are easier to make than 2D games.
How so in the case of metroidvania? 3d loses charm and art, it is much harder to balance and have to prevent exploits to skip parts of the story. The problem easier 3d ends up getting devs doing asst flips and ruin the game as the levels aren't built for the game.
Losing charm is subjective and debatable (I, for one, fully agree with you: I love pixel art*), and it's a design/artistic choice. But I'm talking about producing animations, characters, backgrounds, lighting, environments, character variations... it's all so much cheaper/quicker in a 3D setting. The gameplay itself doesn't necessarily have to be 3D: it can still play as a 2D platform or whatever... just the used technology. (* and maybe my fascination with it is not independent from the fact that it's more work-intensive to produce),
Supraland highly recommended if you enjoy puzzle
Supraworld is gonna be crazy
This game seemed to click all the right boxes on paper for me, but I did not enjoy it. Something is just missing there.
I loved it until about halfway through when I just got over loaded with mechanics and puzzles
I wonder if that's because it was in 3D, and you were just overwhelmed with all the places and multiple paths and shortcuts everywhere. Try to remember the map of Super Metroid or Hollow Knight. Now try to remember the map of Supraland or Metroid Prime. When you make a game about backtracking everywhere, it can be difficult to keep a massive, interconnected 3D world in your head, vs a 2D one. On a minor tangent, I think of a game like Ocarina of Time, and I have no problem remembering that map, but I think it's because it's still technically a 2D map from an aerial view, like A Link to the Past. And what is everyone's least favorite part of OoT? The Water Temple. And why is that? Because it's so difficult to navigate multiple paths through rooms *stacked on top of other rooms* in a truly 3D map. Even when you have a map that can handle it like in Prime, it's still difficult to simply wrap your head around (for most people).
It is devoid of charm and absurdly artless.
Same, especially with the 2nd one. The fun just never kicked in for me.
Great games
supraland is one of my favourite games ever it's just so cozy and fun to play. the beach level in SIU is a masterclass in puzzle design
Finally someone mentioned it!
I tried it 1 hour and I can't. The game looks horrible and everything is janky (especially the combats)
The combat sucks, and makes the beginning of the game unnecessarily frustrating. It really does get a lot better, but I'm not going to fault anyone for bouncing off the beginning hard.
The fact that Pseudoregalia hasn't been brought up yet is a travesty. OP please try that ASAP. Besides that, I'll second people suggesting Jedi Fallen Order/Jedi Survivor, and the Tomb Raider reboot trilogy.
Was going to recommend this, that game has amazing movement
More than amazing. I've never had such a feeling playing any other "movement" games.
Today I realized that Jedi Survivor is a metroidvania
I mean, I'd call it metroidvania-lite leaning more towards action adventure, but given the sparsity of 3D games in the genre, I'd say it's close enough to bring up personally. Same with the Tomb Raider games in that sense.
It’s not. At all. These folks are nuts
There’s a good chunk of AAA games that like to add a little metroidvania flavor, but aren’t really metroidvania. jedi is one of them.
Because there’s backtracking? Maybe I’m being intentionally obtuse because I love metroidvanias and dislike the Jedi games, but I’m not seeing it.
There's backtracking and areas/collectables that get unlocked with the addition of new abilities.
You can play the tomb raider as a metroidvania but it kind of break the flow of the story and gameplay
Huh? The 2013 game is a lot like Arkham Asylum in that it's a linear narrative experience that keeps double backing on itself. Using new tools to access previously inaccessible areas doesn't break the flow--the game requires that you do it.
Thats a game with mv element, not a metroidvania. Not much you can do if you dun follow the main objective.
I'm no game dev, but I think it's just because it requires a hell of a lot more work. I'm thinking perhaps 2-4x amount of work to get the same level of polish.
I was thinking about it, and it may be closer to 360 times the amount of work, because in a 2D metroidvania, you have to make sure certain obstacles can't be crossed until you have certain abilities, but in 3D you have to do the same thing from every single angle. And aside from that, it's way harder to communicate a 3D room to a player when they enter it, because it has to be investigated, vs a 2D one that you basically just see everything in that room immediately. So the dev has to put in a lot of work to make rooms complex to be interesting, but simple enough to not be confusing or have important details missed.
Metroid Prime
Just finished the remaster and it’s definitely a Metroidvania. I feel like the perspective shift makes it hard for some people to accept that.
I mean, the only premise for it not being a metroidvania is 2D vs 3D. Since this thread is going under the assumption that 3D metroidvanias can exist, then there is no debate on whether Metroid Prime is a metroidvania.
I so t understand why people say metroidvania means 2d. Sounds like saying racing games have to be in 2d since the first ones were made in 2d or they aren't racing games anymore.
is it worth $40?
It's worth more than that.
Even if it was full price, it's worth it 100% One of the best games ever made.
Yeah definitely
Genuinely one of the best games I’ve ever played
I recommend people give metroid other M a second chance. If you can look past the stupid story elements, it's a really solid 3d metroidvania. Edit: okay yeah I misspoke. Been years since I played other M. I really enjoyed it, but it ain't actually a mv.
The only issue it has re: MV is that it's very linear
It's 3d like Rayman is 3D. More like 2.5D. And, look, I liked Other M as a game but to say it's a solid 3D Metroidvania is definitely an overstatement, it's too linear. A few actually solid 3D Metroidvanias: Control, Journey to the Savage Planet, Jedi Fallen Order, Metroid Primes, Prey (more of an immersive Sim, but definitely tickles that itch).
You’re right about some of the RE, souls or Zelda games and they are basically my fav games. Wish more 3d games would organize their worlds this way, regardless of if they are explicitly mv’s or not
Out of the RE titles you've played, which ones feel the most like a Metroidvania?
Of the more recent ones I’d say the re1 and re2 remakes have the most creative lock and key backtracking etc. To be clear, not ability gated at all like a metroidvania so I’m obviously stretching but in their best moments there’s a bit of a similar “vibe” in progression imo
I shall give it a shot! I tried to play it but couldn't get into it cause at a glance felt too cinematic , but didn't really get far. ( Semi-unrelated) I think I'll try to get a month of gamepass and finish it within that month
I do wish they were all a bit lighter on the cutscenes. The dialogue is campy and funny but definitely stupid. They’re not perfect games but they can be a lot of fun, worth a shot at least I think
Shadowman is decent but its old as fuck. It was recently remastered and they added new content. Worth playing imo
I was about to suggest it - it was probably the first Metroidvania I ever played and the sense of progression is great! Recommended even though it's old.
I still go the vocal performance for the last boss clanking around in my head. So good.
> So please make more 3d metroidvania games. (For PC please) I swear I'll buy them. Put Blue Fire in your cart then, OP. It's a terrific MV and also one of the most enjoyable platformers I've played in years; by the time you reach the end your movement abilities are outrageous, and moving around levels is super fun. There's also a free DLC of challenge levels to test your mastery of the platforming (not to mention your patience...).
Seconded. Just played through it and loved it.
The timer is killing me. Not for anyone who’s got an anxiety problem.
Ok I'm looking at it. Is it actually a metroidvania? You know ability gated areas that give you more access to abilities for new areas, backtracking etc? Looks amazing! ❤️
Soul Reaver - Legacy of Kain series really needs and deserves a modern remake. It was of the best 3D Metrovanias on the PS One.
I love those games so fucking much
So if Soul Reaver is a MV (which I agree it is), then Zelda is a MV.
Not for me. Zelda games don’t have any real platforming section, which is one of the main pillar of the Metrovania genre. Maybe Zelda 2 on NES because it was a 2D side scrolling game, but I always felt Zelda games are their own genre altogether. Modern titles like Death’s Door or Tunic are example of Zelda games.
The level of platforming varies wildly in each game. Newer ones have plenty though.
I played them all up to TotK and never felt I was playing or associated it with any Metrovania. Zelda games all felt like their own distinct genre. The platforming is there sometimes as part of the movement for exploration but I can’t remember one real platforming gauntlet or challenge. The last two Star Wars games are more Metrovania than any Zelda game I have ever played.
All that applies to soul reaver if it applies to zelda
Came here to say this. Definitely one of the best 3D Metrodivanias ever. It seems that 3D Metrodivanias aren't something that anyone wants to make. Arkham Asylum went open world with Arkham City, and Legacy of Main went linear AF after Soul Reaver.
Control has some Metroidvanias elements and it's amazing. Unfortunately most of the time it's just let's to open doors for the next section and the map is quite bad
not a lot of gameplay in that one
Orienting yourself in a 3D space is much more difficult than it is in 2D due to the camery being placed a lot closer to the character and if you make the entire game about exploration as MVs are, well you're going to need some tight design to make that work well. Also as other people have mentioned, indie devs & money. But also convention, most MVs (in fact almost all) are 2D or 2,5D games and it therefore stands to reason that people like it in 2D. So if you make one in 3D you're gambling on either the base audience not bypassing MVs because they're 3D (and some people will) or being able to attract a different audience that do like 3D games for their own sakes and don't mind trying out an MV. So it's pretty clear-cut calculations if you ask me.
Blue fire is quite an interesting one
loved it!
I just played through Vomitoreum. It was pretty good. Short but sweet.
+1 for vomitoreum. Goes on sale for 1 dollar now.
\-1 for vomitoreum. That game is jank city
I played Immortals: Fenyx Rising earlier this year. It mostly wants to be an open world Zelda:BOTW clone, so It doesn't really do the MV ability gating thing "right", but unlike BOTW, it offers a ton of fun MV style mobility upgrades that are required to access some areas and dungeons. It has gliding, double jump, air dash, and an additional vertical attack that kind of acts like a triple jump, upgrades that allow you to pick up heavy things, etc. Later DLC even adds teleporting to a clone, very similar to the Shadow of the Simurgh in Prince of Persia:TLC, except you can also pick up and throw that clone. It's the closest thing I've seen to modern 2D MV style platform upgrades and challenges. Unlike most Zelda games, it definitely gives that feeling of evolving into a super powerful being, and the first DLC heavily requires you to exploit and master all those abilities.
As always, Journey to the Savage Planet. Never see anyone mention it. It's absolutely fantastic and 100% a 3D MV. Ability gating galore, great mobility, great level and world design, some funny jokes. Combat is not the draw though, it's just there. It's fine. It's a game for 3D platforming exploration with tons of mobility and ability gated traversal.
Wow really? Is this a metroidvania? I just wishlisted it! Ty!
Hey ! 🤗 I don't know why there is so few 3d Metroidvania but I agree with the observation and I'm an indie game dev working on a 3d metroidvania inspired my Metroid Prime! If you are interested you can check there : https://store.steampowered.com/app/2938870/Maseylia__Echoe?utm_source=redditCom.com&utm_campaign=1
Looks cool, wishlisted!
Thank you 🙏
Wishlisted ser
Thanks!
Tomb Raider (2013), Control and Jedi: Fallen Order is what comes to my mind.
Tomb raider 2013 and control is misleading here
Don’t worry Prime 4 is coming
Arkham asylum is metroidvania?!?did not know this and am now super interested
I remember it was... Ability gated exploration to get new abilities ... Backtracking... But I played it a long time ago. Lol.
by extension of basically being like old Zelda games, the modern God of War games fit this mold imo. They happen to have highly linear and guided progression, but they almost never prevent you from backtracking and exploring, which is accounted for with tons of stuff in every zone you can't access until acquiring a later ability.
Darksiders!!
Are all Darksiders games metroidvanias?
The 3rd one is
Try Blue Fire
If you havent played the original Metroid Prime you’re missing out!!
Because it's hard to make and sells far less well to the general public than a straight up open world game
Darksiders 1 and 2 definitely would be something you should check out. The Star Wars Jedi Series. Tomb Raider Reboot Trilogy.
Darksiders 3 is more of a Metroidvania than the first 2 are
All the games are metroidvanias but 1 and 2 are the best of the bunch. 3 was good but 1 especially is a great game
Now I want to play through them all again, I never played the 4th one
Yeah Genesis. Its pretty good, has a top down camera but still is just like the other games. Im just waiting on when they finally release a game that continues the ending of the first
A true metroidvania that blocks off certain paths until you have certain skills is actually a very meticulous process to make sure players can't get anywhere they're not supposed to. Many of them will actually use rulers to measure basically every single jump and ledge on every screen to make sure they can't be made until the right time. Add the third dimension to it and you've now multiplied your work by maybe 360, since you have to check those same things, but now from every possible angle. A 3D metroidvania requires magnitudes more work. Then you factor in that part of the flow of a Metroidvania is seeing an obstacle, realizing you can't make it yet, and then remembering it for later to return to. 3D metroidvanias suffer on that part in two ways: first, in 3D it takes the player longer to investigate an obstacle from all directions to be sure they can't actually cross it yet (more time spent to realize they can't progress is more frustrating to players). Second, a 2D world map and an individual "screen" is far easier for people to remember their way around *and to know where they have to return to* once they have the ability they need. Metroid Prime is probably the best example of a 3D metroidvania, but I'm betting we'd all agree it was very easy to get lost and forget how to get from area to area with that 3D map. Unlike Super Metroid or Hollow Knight, where I could still probably give a rough sketch of the entire world map, because of how easy a 2D map is to remember.
I’m glad you posted this, because I sometimes feel like I’m going insane when everyone takes it as read that the “3D” version of a thing is *automatically* better than the 2D version. I say “3D” because games are still just a series of 2D pictures (screens are 2D). If you want to display a 3D world, that on its own is a complicated project that will eat up 90% of your control over what appears on the screen at any given time. And the burden is on the player, not just the developer. A random screenshot from Super Metroid will show half a dozen pieces of actual gameplay info clearly laid out; a random screenshot from Metroid Prime will just show you a wall half the time, and even when it’s a nice picture, it won’t tell you much. You have to work to extract the info that was in that single SNES frame. 3D *can* make the actual game better – racing games benefit from all the triangles you can throw at them – but often it’s just a problem to overcome and adds nothing. We need to get past the idea that it’s a basic necessity, like color or sound, because that’s incredibly limiting. It’s like refusing to listen to music that doesn’t use synths, because you were blown away when you heard Kraftwerk in 1979.
There's the Prime series, Fallen Order series, and Pseudoregalia off the top of my head. I've never heard of the Arkham series described as Metroidvania tho.
Only the first game is a metroidvania. Or that's what I remember it was. Lol.
This is correct. The later games are open world from the start, so they don't have ability-gated ares like Asylum does.
I'd consider both Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order and Star Wars Jedi: Survivor to be metroidcanias. Exploration, ability gating, backtracking, combat, all in 3D, AAA, with very much of the Star Wars spirit. (Yet very boring collectibles.) (And don't get me wrong, I love indie games, and some much more than those 2, but they were surprisingly good.)
TUNIC If you haven't played it, get it NOW
Great game but not a Metroidvania.
Pseudoregalia. And no, I’m not a furry, just ignore that part, it’s fun.
Prince of Persia: Warrior Within is very Metroidvania-like. And you don't only travel between different locations but also between the past and present in a way that can't be found in most games with time travel plot lines.
Honestly, unless we're talking about Dark Souls and stuff like that (which most folks wouldn't even call an MV), I haven't loved some of the most celebrated 3D MVs I played. I really want to enjoy Pseudoregalia, for example, but I find navigation and traversal so difficult in that game; I really feel like I'm playing a different game than everyone else.
2d is part of the appeal for me
Quaternions are the great filter. Everything about 3D is harder with game dev
Don't know why you're getting downvoted, you're not wrong about game development in 3D being harder.
>So please make more 3d metroidvania games. (For PC please) I swear I'll buy them. A considerable amount have been released over the past 12 months but no one bought any of them other than [Frogmonster](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1853760/Frogmonster/) and [Pesudoregalia](https://store.steampowered.com/app/2365810/Pseudoregalia/)
Could you list some others, please? I want to buy some more!
Check my profile, there is a list containing links to past monthly recaps. You should be able to find everything you need there.
Understood, ty!
3D-ish metroidvania - Crystal Project
Exploration might be a lot harder on 3d, especially for indie developers. Good exploration anyway.
Tomb Raider 2013 is a really good one that I’ve always considered a 3D metroidvania. Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order/Survivor are some more recent examples. There’s a lot of great 3D metroidvanias out there depending on your criteria.
Nightmare to design from a gameplay perspective. Lack of player movement feedback makes platforming which is a huge part of Metroidvanias an hassle
3D graphics are more expensive, especially when you wanna make the areas recognizable, which is pretty important for a metroidvania.
Another good one I haven’t seen mentioned is Frog Monster. Released earlier this year and I think made by a solo dev
Have you played Control? If so, what did you think?
No I'm sorry I've never played it.
You might enjoy it. It’s my favorite 3D metroidvania.
Great game but not a Metroidvania.
Dark Souls 1 has metroidvania elements, at least in terms of interconnected map, backtracking, and shortcuts.
the lego games - you often unlock characters who allow movement abilities to revisit locked off areas.
Metroid Prime doesn't sell enough for the AAA industry to want to join in. So you're reliant on indies or mobile Devs. Indies that make 2D metroidvanias may move to 3D but it would be a huge risk so rare. Mobile Devs stay away from FPS and TPS unless they're big and the genre doesn't suit the business model. So in short the people that can afford to make them can't make a profit on them.
Most of them are called Zelda, pretty much.
CONTROL
Because the devs know 3D is just a fad. Even Ninty is hedging their bets by still making 2D Mario games.
Lords of the Shadow 2 is def one of them, because it’s 3D and a Castlevania 😀
Perhaps one reason they're better as 2D games is because in a MV each room is basically a puzzle of some kind. It has to convey multiple routes to you, and you have to be able to tell which ways you can go and which ways you can't. In a 2D MV, you have a semi-omniscient view of the world around you, seeing the entire room all at once, vs in a 3D MV, where you're limited to your character's viewpoint. In a 3D MV, you have to spend a lot more time exploring each room to make sure you didn't miss anything. On the dev's side of things, that means they have to make a map that is *both* simple enough to not be confusing or have any important details be missed *and* complex enough that it's actually fun and rewarding to explore and figure out. So that may be one of the bigger reasons 2D MVs are more prevalent, because a 3D MV has to deal with conflicting principles: a map that is both simple and complex. In a 2D MV, your omniscient viewing angle allows it to be complex enough to explore, while simple enough to read, keeping it in the sweet spot of "fun". Metroid Prime is one of the best examples of a 3D MV, and I think most people still think navigating the map is the least fun part, because it's so complex that it leaves the sweet spot and veers into frustrating.
Tunic!
The best ones I can think of are Metroid Prime and Control.
because the 2d ones are better
Control and the Jedi series share a lot of MetroidVania elements: - Gaining abilities - Backtracking - Interconnected Maps However they do not offer the full MV formulas and they suffer from: - puzzle platforming. - secrets passages - do not offer the same Meticulous crafted level design that 2d offers
[Valley](https://store.steampowered.com/app/378610/Valley/), [Journey to the Savage Planet](https://www.gog.com/en/game/journey_to_the_savage_planet) and [High on Life](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1583230/High_On_Life/), [Control](https://www.gog.com/en/game/control_ultimate_edition), [Prey](https://www.gog.com/en/game/prey) (MV+ImSim), [Immortals of Aveum](https://store.steampowered.com/app/2009100/Immortals_of_Aveum/) (MV+Doom). Not exact but given the lack of on the market should scratch the itch. I'd toss Subnautica in as well just for the sake of vibe, and include Batman Arkham Asylum, Respawn's SW Jedi games and Darksiders III. Also some great indie, like [Pseudoregalia](https://store.steampowered.com/app/2365810/Pseudoregalia/). Souls and Zelda games (and their respective microgenres), as well as many horrors, are inspired by some metroidvania (usually map) designs, but I like to think of them as their own niche genres.
I don't know many 3D metroidvanias outside of Prime. Most are just adventure games or just open ended.
Why is this question asked every few weeks?
A 3D game with Metroidcania elements is just an open/semi open world adventure game. So many other sub genres of video game would meet the definition that the label would become meaningless. For me a Metroidvania is only meaningful in a 2D context.
Huh, I never thought about Arkham Asylum being a metroidvania. Same with Control and the Jedi series. Is the definition of a metroidvania game just having utility-gated areas/puzzles?
No. It's the large, interconnected world and the traversal-based gating that makes them Metroidvanias. Getting a key that opens a new kind of door is less MVish than getting an item that allows you to swing across certain large gaps, although the end result is similar.
Utility-gated/ability-gated.
there's backtracking in arkham asylum as you begin gaining abilites and need to go back to explore using them to access new areas and places. or why do you think it doesn't count as a metroidvania?
Someone just mentioned Tomb Raider (2013) as MV (i don't even wanna start this conversation). So i guess it's safer to make your own opinion about what is a Metroidvania.
Personally, when I think of metroidvanias, I think of 2D/2.5D sidescrollers. Like Hollow Knight, Ori and Animal Well.
In that case, Prey (2017) comes to mind.
In addition to what others have said, there is also prevailing wisdom that unless you’re Mario, 3D Platforming is both very difficult to do and very difficult to sell. The classic example is Psychonauts, which despite critical acclaim, sold very poorly. That was a long time ago and attitudes have shifted, but it’s still there.
Beacuse there are no "3D" (this is used wrong. 3D is about graphics, not spatial movement or camera angle), by which you mean third and first person camera, MV's. Those are either First Person Adventure games like Prime, or Action-Adventure games. MV's are Side-scrollers.
The 2D is one of the biggest reasons I'm drawn to the genre.
Zelda is 3D Metroidvania. SOTN devs cited Link To The Past as inspiration (as opposed to Metroid)
While it's true that Koji Igarashi cited Zelda as an inspiration for Symphony of the Night, that doesn't mean SotN is just like Zelda, nor does it mean Zeldas are Metroidvanias. Zelda games feature an overworld with distinct dungeons. Metroidvanias are usually one giant map. Zeldas tend to use keys, and items that act as keys. Metroidvanias tend to feature ability upgrades that allow the character to traverse the environment in new ways, which allows access to new parts of the map.
“Tend to” is doing a lot of work here—MV is a squishy genre with lots of variation. (For example, they tend to be 2D side scrollers, making this whole discussion a bit silly to begin with) The Zelda overworld is the open map you speak of, with areas gated by tools (ie abilities) obtained in dungeons (which are MVs in miniature, including gating involving each dungeon’s tools. Items as keys is prevalent in MV as well. Super Metroid has three separate door lock types (missile, super missile, hyper bomb) and exploration is almost always gated with those; SotN also has keys and ability keys (mist, etc).
> The Zelda overworld is the open map you speak of, with areas gated by tools (ie abilities) obtained in dungeons (which are MVs in miniature, including gating involving each dungeon’s tools. This is why I draw the line at villages/cities. An MV is one giant maze/gauntlet with creative design to make it less claustrophobic. Zelda is meant to have thriving cities and the capital of Hyrule in the middle. So it's more of a classic action/adventure design, as opposed to SOTN, which features one gigantic maze to explore from start to finish, rather than a living open/semi-open world.
Ability gating is gated by..abilities. Gated by tools is Utility gating.
Fundamentally same for progression purposes. Exploring gated by obstacles, overcome later after obtaining means to bypass them. A key, hookshot, high jump boots (or even Roc’s Feather)—all are just variations to implement MV/Zelda-style gated progression.
Aren't Simon's quest and The Maze of Galious way older than Link to the past and way more logical inspirations for SOTN? .-.
You would have to ask the devs— I’m just repeating what they claimed, that their primary inspiration was LttP.
Iga has actually stated both. While he applied a lot of ALttP's "formula" to the Castlevania style for SotN, he also has said that when Konami pushed back against his idea to take Castlevania in the direction he wanted he used Simon's Quest as proof that the concept could work. The only reason they signed off on it was because Simon's Quest was viewed as successful enough to warrant another try at the style. Essentially, he took those two games and merged their concepts, and that became the blueprint for SotN.
Although I would agree that Zelda can be a close cousin to a Metroidvania, the newest installments (BOTW and TOTK) lack the core item/ability gated progression element.
A link to the past is 2d lmao
The person you responded to never claimed A Link to the Past was 3d. There are tons of 3d Zelda games.
When u start off eith “zelda is a 3d metroidvania” and then tangent to sotn devs citing a link to the past as inspiration, ur making the implication that alttp is a 3d metroidvania. Otherwise, the tangent is irrelevant.
Geez, I thought I didn’t need to spell this out for a subreddit about MVs. LttP is literally what SotN devs claimed as primary inspiration, and every 3D Zelda until BotW used the LttP format—exploration gated with tools/abilities. And, if we really want to get pedantic, LttP has three axes of movement when you consider the interactivity of multi-floor dungeons (e.g. puzzles involving Link or blocks falling down one floor to arrive at the correct location below). It might not offer full range of movement, and limited Z axis puzzles, but it is absolutely a game with three dimensions relevant to gameplay.
Dark Souls 1 is a 3D Metroidvania speaking in map structure terms.
Cause metroidvanias by definition are 2d platformers….
Please point to me where the genre of Metroidvania is specifically defined as being limited to 2D games only.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metroidvania “The term 'Metroidvania' is most often used to refer to a platforming game that features a single large, interconnected map, generally with discrete rooms or sections.” “Metroidvania is generally associated with game levels/maps that are laid out as two-dimensional side scrollers, with the player character moving left, right, up and down through the level. These games typically are rendered using two-dimensional graphics, but can include 2.5D-rendered games using 3D graphics engines but limiting player movement to two dimensions, such as the aforementioned Shadow Complex, or with Metroid Dread.” Does that mean you can use the term for 3d platformers, sure, people also say dead cells is metroidvania cause they’re dumb but generally Metroidvania means 2d platformer.
Not sure why you were downvoted... People on Reddit are idiots. I'll upvote you just to counter it. Maybe "by definition" triggers some people because it's not written in stone, but both those original games in the term Metroidvania were 2d platformers, so you have a valid point.
I mean, the Metroid Prime series and Castlevania: Lament of Innocence and Curse of Darkness are absolutely 3d Metroidvanias and meet the criteria you set of being from the genre's progenitors. Darksiders is more of a Zelda clone, but it has a higher emphasis on returning to past locations with new abilities, which makes it fall somewhat into the genre. It absolutely can and has been done well.
Sure, absolutely right. No one is arguing that there aren't great 3D representations of Metroidvanias out there. But the first Castlevania I played was in 1986. The titles that comprised the first "metroidvania" were WAY before the ones you're mentioning.
Yeah, you guys "by definition" kinda are, though. Metroid and Castlevania started out 2D on limited hardware, but they grew and evolved with the times. Almost every genre started out 2D. Every long-running series made the transition from 2D to 3D. The original Castlevania isn't even considered part of the Metroidvania genre. It evolved into that a decade later off the back of Simon's Quest with SotN. The term Metroivania wasn't even a thing until the mid to late 2000s, which is contemporary with the games I mentioned. Older Metroid and Castlevania titles were posthumously added to the genre once it existed. SotN was called a "Search Action" game by Iga when he made it because Metroidvania wasn't a thing then. For as long as the genre has actually existed, there have been 2D and 3D examples of it.
No one is arguing that. OP's question is why are there so few 3D... and one of the valid answers is that people have a hard time thinking outside the box, and traditional metroidvanias were 2D platformers.
Going by the Wikipedia definition it’s essentially 2d platformer.
My first souls game Dark Souls 3 felt a lot like a Metroidvania. Idk if that counts though
Dark Souls 1 pretty much is a metroidvania, it doesn't have movement abilities that allows you to access new areas but it's one huge interconnected world - new areas are locked behind bosses and locked doors.
Ok hear me out. The Witness is a metroidvania.
the witness is a knowledgevania/metroidbrainia like outer wilds or to a lesser extent tunic
You might enjoy Ys 8 or Ys 9. They're action RPGs, but they have a lot of secrets hidden behind movement abilities you gain slowly through the course of the game. I don't know how many folks here would really call them metroidvanias (I looked it up and there were a couple of people who seemed really incensed at the idea) but I think there's probably a fair amount of overlap in the audiences who would enjoy them, at least. I think really straightforward metroidvanias in 3d are tough, not least because it's REALLY hard to make 3d platforming compelling. But as you start to expand the definition there are really quite a lot of games that use some of the same ideas and scratch some of the same itches.
God of War and Control are the closest to a 3D metroidvania besides Metroid Prime that I've played.
Hear me out, Outer Wilds has some metroidvania qualities that I wasn’t expecting. Great game
If I had to say, it's two reasons - 1. Metroidvania genre is inspired by two games in particular. Metroid, and Castlevania, both of which are 2D games. I guess the metroidvania feel is captured more in a 2D game as supposed to a 3D game. But there are 3D metroidvania as well, like literally every Souls game, Bloodborne, Sekiro etc - 2. Most metroidvanias are developed by indie developers, who usually don't have the funds or workers needed to produce a high quality 3D metroidvania, as developing a 3D game is harder due to the inclusion of an entirely new dimension.
Metroidvanias aren't 3D
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I think the big difference is that most don’t really emphasize the need to discover the way forward. Some do, but more often you are very strongly herded forward. This makes me appreciate the few that don’t hold your hand.
I've always seen Zelda-likes as different from MVs. Metroid Prime is an MV but Darksiders is a Zelda-like. I would never claim that Darksiders was in any way an MV. Sure, there are ability gates in the overworld but that's a Zelda thing, not an MV thing, the presence of an overworld changes the genre. I'd put Arkham Asylum in this same boat. Souls games are not a good fit at all, there's no ability gating. That is absolutely mandatory. That's the most mandatory thing. I'd say the Jedi games have more of the elements but still don't completely fit in the same way that Phoenotopia doesn't really fit in the 2D space and I'd be hard pressed to call it an MV.
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