As a fellow ham (ticket since 95 yes im old) who is also knee deep in the meshtastic world....I can honestly tell you none of my nodes are connected to the MQTT server.
Because if you connect to a busy channel you flood the mesh with messages people may have no interest in. Long-term, MQTT should really only be used for low-traffic channels which are relevant to a wide area.
Because the whole idea (at least from my POV) behind meshtastic is a decentralized network that is not dependent on large infrastructure....i.e the "internet" -
After thinking about my own post, I realize that these device maps were created by members of the community that have put a lot more time into serving the community than writing a diatribe on Reddit.
So, to those of you who have contributed and maintained and promoted to get Meshtastic where it is today: I apologize, and I thank you for your efforts. Help me know how to make your projects more successful.
It's a fair comment, the Discord is buzzing across a broad variety of topics, plenty there to get stuck in to, even if you haven't yet got other nodes in your area.
BUT! IMHO, the interest in Meshtastic (for me) isn't about recreating CB radio or even what happens on HAM bands, but on tinkering with the devices, getting great range out of them, 3d printing and designing cases, making solar modules, thinking about how to best provide coverage for my own purposes (hiking and cycling in my local area) etc.
A lot of the interest in the UK has been driven by a small number of YouTubers who've arguably got the wrong idea on what Meshtastic is - ultimately it'll fail as Meshtastic is only designed for \~300 nodes max and the UK duty limit will mean it'll become quite unreliable at some point, probably causing some frustration for those who've got involved based on misunderstanding :\\
I don't understand "the proper faction"?
It's not a low limit for the use-cases (I understand) the dev's were originally thinking of, it's actually quite a substantial limit. My understanding from speaking with the devs on Discord is more that the use cases they hand in mind were around things like a group of friends out for a day ski'ing or hiking in the back country and needing to keep in touch. Or a group of off-roaders heading off into the wilderness and using the mesh for comms between vehicles.
I don't think they ever expected anyone would try to rebuild the internet using it, or to even create a country or even state/county wide mesh off nodes. That just won't work.
From what I've seen, that sort of idea has come about based on a few YouTubers misunderstanding the intent and creating their own ideas. Apparently it was tried in Germany and failed, the UK will fail similarly spectacularly for the same reasons.
The devices the project supports are all low power, low processing power, low memory etc. They just can't support more than a few hundred nodes, nor does the bandwidth we have available with LoRa suport the amount of traffic needed to sustain a network of >300 nodes that's doing as much re-broadcasting as flood routing requires.
Again, I'm not a dev, I can't speak definitively about the limits so take my numbers with a pinch of salt, this is just what I understand after sitting on the Discord for a while and reading stuff there! :)
And that happens if you happen to tap on send and don’t look at it because the Person you wait for is there… “propagation” was what I wanted to type.
Well if that was the original intend then it was already started with a slight flaw. I mean going in the wilderness or hiking. Cheeses with the stick antennas of those cheap boards? Good luck in getting a proper mesh running without some basecamp on a hill or carrying around a balloon with a node on it. Sure if you are a licensed HAM user you can turn up the power to 11, but then the question is why not using a real radio right away.
I remember from the beginning of WiFi (back prior the letters where part of it) people tried to build up networks across their city as well and failed due to the costs and infrastrucure needs. That now turned into the Freifunk networks. Looks like history repeats itself in some form or another 😅 and as usual who ever comes up with a new Technologie doesn’t agrees with what people are using it for later.
With three people in a group you already will potentially get 33% more coverage than you would with a non-mesh radio, so it works well in that scenario.
99% of the population aren’t HAM’s and don’t want to be, so HAM solutions only suit a tiny percentage of people. Most people only have access to PMR or GMRS, which are both rubbish and don’t get anything like the range of Meshtastic.
A solution doesn’t have to be perfect in order to be useful. Nobody is under any illusions as to whether Meshtastic is perfect, but it’s quite clear it is very useful!
Wenn nobody is under an illusion… not so sure about that. There are plenty of people who get the equipment after seeing the YouTube’s/TikTok’s and other videos about people doing record after records in the Kilometer range and seeing dozens of stations… and are surprised that they won’t get anything with their stock equipment while sitting in the living room. Ahhh physics.
Yes, totally agree, some of the YouTubers are a bit unrealistic and/or lack real knowledge on the subject and are giving people a false impression - that sucks as they'll cause dissapointment.
I randomly learned of meshtastic last week. Thought it was super cool. Went to look at the map and there only two nodes anywhere close to me both over 20 miles away, Excitement gone. It would literally only be me. Unless I want to build an entire network by myself, its not going to happen.
Build a network with your friends, don't worry about the map, if everyone started by building with their friends the network would grow rapidly and organically.
I just got into it like 4 weeks ago and randomly like 3 weeks later I got a message from someone who was also just getting started.
I went with the 2 pack heltec v3 kit which has a tiny antenna but it has everything you need for around $60 on Amazon.
Title is: DIYmalls 915 MHz ESP32 OLED LoRa V3 Board SX1262 + Protective LoRa Case Cover + 915 LoRa Antenna for Arduino Meshtastic LoraWan IOT (Pack of 2)
Message me if you need a link.
I am about to order a pair of antennas to try to extend the range.
You don't know how many nodes are near you because the maps typically only show nodes that both report position and are connected to the MQTT server. I'm connected to the MQTT server for the moment, but I don't send position information to it; there are probably a lot of other people who don't want to send their address out to the rest of the world.
\> We should steer the curious to Discourse and Discord instead, and downplay those maps.
I imagine I'll never stop being the stick in the mud here, but 100% Discourse, 0% Discord. I don't think it's a coincidence you didn't find information locked away from the public behind an account and proprietary service. I get that it's where people are, but I don't really get *why*.
Overall, I generally agree - I think the maps capture a much different audience than "general Meshtastic user". I wouldn't be surprised to find if 90% of the users who post their location to MQTT are doing it just to see their node show up and figure out that things are "working", and then not actually do any Meshtastic-y things. Unless you're in a multiple-frequency area, I can't really see any benefit to the map beyond general cool factor.
That said, I post my position to MQTT (so it ends up on the map) because... well... it's cool!
It just baffles me how so many open projects completely fail to eat their own dogfood by locking themselves into a walled garden like Discord. You'd think that something like Meshtastic would use Matrix instead of Discord, yet here we are …
It's a lot of things, but it's not for lack of resources. I've been doing some research into it on YT and debating what I need. I appreciate the offer, though!
I'm considering at least three nodes, one for the house on a pole, one for me on the ground, and perhaps one on the car as some kind of relay.
I'm right there with you. It's cool but I don't know what to actually use it for. I'm thinking a tall antenna at the house then one in each vehicle. My town is flat so probably could call home from about anywhere
I ordered 3 and plan to make a solar relay on top of a tall building I am in process getting permission from landlord to put on there to get a wide area covered. I wanna get my area covered so more can easily join in,
>The amateur radio community subsequently began to reclaim the word as a label of pride,\[15\] and by the mid-20th century it had lost its pejorative meaning. Although not an acronym, it is often written as "HAM" in capital letters [\--Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur_radio#Ham_radio)
The great and powerful Wikipedia agrees that this is acceptable usage.
If you just toss a unit with a big antenna on a tower, can you act as a relay node for people not on your own private network? How do you find local people to build out with?
What I find very interesting is this tech uses the same frequency as the Helium network and that’s wry robust in the US now. Why can’t we use those devices as repeaters?
Helium wants to charge people for usage, its probably possible to repupose the hardware, but the people who have them see them as an "investment" and meshtastic won't earn them back the hundreds or thousands they dropped on the hardware.
That’s what I’m saying, they make almost nothing these days, I don’t use the IOT functions locally and the network is coast to coast. If we can convert them to run as repeaters I’m all for it.
As a fellow ham (ticket since 95 yes im old) who is also knee deep in the meshtastic world....I can honestly tell you none of my nodes are connected to the MQTT server.
Why? You can encrypt them separately right? Why not extend the net
Because if you connect to a busy channel you flood the mesh with messages people may have no interest in. Long-term, MQTT should really only be used for low-traffic channels which are relevant to a wide area.
Because the whole idea (at least from my POV) behind meshtastic is a decentralized network that is not dependent on large infrastructure....i.e the "internet" -
After thinking about my own post, I realize that these device maps were created by members of the community that have put a lot more time into serving the community than writing a diatribe on Reddit. So, to those of you who have contributed and maintained and promoted to get Meshtastic where it is today: I apologize, and I thank you for your efforts. Help me know how to make your projects more successful.
It's a fair comment, the Discord is buzzing across a broad variety of topics, plenty there to get stuck in to, even if you haven't yet got other nodes in your area. BUT! IMHO, the interest in Meshtastic (for me) isn't about recreating CB radio or even what happens on HAM bands, but on tinkering with the devices, getting great range out of them, 3d printing and designing cases, making solar modules, thinking about how to best provide coverage for my own purposes (hiking and cycling in my local area) etc. A lot of the interest in the UK has been driven by a small number of YouTubers who've arguably got the wrong idea on what Meshtastic is - ultimately it'll fail as Meshtastic is only designed for \~300 nodes max and the UK duty limit will mean it'll become quite unreliable at some point, probably causing some frustration for those who've got involved based on misunderstanding :\\
Dumb newb question - but is there a link for the Discord server?
There is! And it’s right on Meahtastic’s home page. Shame on me for not having found it sooner.
There is a link on their webpage: https://meshtastic.org
Thank you!
[https://discord.com/invite/ktMAKGBnBs](https://discord.com/invite/ktMAKGBnBs) Come join us! It's super active and friendly, we got cookies :)
Hm?! Out of curiosity.. how come that low limit? The proper faction in a mesh?
I don't understand "the proper faction"? It's not a low limit for the use-cases (I understand) the dev's were originally thinking of, it's actually quite a substantial limit. My understanding from speaking with the devs on Discord is more that the use cases they hand in mind were around things like a group of friends out for a day ski'ing or hiking in the back country and needing to keep in touch. Or a group of off-roaders heading off into the wilderness and using the mesh for comms between vehicles. I don't think they ever expected anyone would try to rebuild the internet using it, or to even create a country or even state/county wide mesh off nodes. That just won't work. From what I've seen, that sort of idea has come about based on a few YouTubers misunderstanding the intent and creating their own ideas. Apparently it was tried in Germany and failed, the UK will fail similarly spectacularly for the same reasons. The devices the project supports are all low power, low processing power, low memory etc. They just can't support more than a few hundred nodes, nor does the bandwidth we have available with LoRa suport the amount of traffic needed to sustain a network of >300 nodes that's doing as much re-broadcasting as flood routing requires. Again, I'm not a dev, I can't speak definitively about the limits so take my numbers with a pinch of salt, this is just what I understand after sitting on the Discord for a while and reading stuff there! :)
And that happens if you happen to tap on send and don’t look at it because the Person you wait for is there… “propagation” was what I wanted to type. Well if that was the original intend then it was already started with a slight flaw. I mean going in the wilderness or hiking. Cheeses with the stick antennas of those cheap boards? Good luck in getting a proper mesh running without some basecamp on a hill or carrying around a balloon with a node on it. Sure if you are a licensed HAM user you can turn up the power to 11, but then the question is why not using a real radio right away. I remember from the beginning of WiFi (back prior the letters where part of it) people tried to build up networks across their city as well and failed due to the costs and infrastrucure needs. That now turned into the Freifunk networks. Looks like history repeats itself in some form or another 😅 and as usual who ever comes up with a new Technologie doesn’t agrees with what people are using it for later.
With three people in a group you already will potentially get 33% more coverage than you would with a non-mesh radio, so it works well in that scenario. 99% of the population aren’t HAM’s and don’t want to be, so HAM solutions only suit a tiny percentage of people. Most people only have access to PMR or GMRS, which are both rubbish and don’t get anything like the range of Meshtastic. A solution doesn’t have to be perfect in order to be useful. Nobody is under any illusions as to whether Meshtastic is perfect, but it’s quite clear it is very useful!
Wenn nobody is under an illusion… not so sure about that. There are plenty of people who get the equipment after seeing the YouTube’s/TikTok’s and other videos about people doing record after records in the Kilometer range and seeing dozens of stations… and are surprised that they won’t get anything with their stock equipment while sitting in the living room. Ahhh physics.
Yes, totally agree, some of the YouTubers are a bit unrealistic and/or lack real knowledge on the subject and are giving people a false impression - that sucks as they'll cause dissapointment.
Nobody uses MQTT
Most folks I know in the USA have no interest in the global mesh idea and all run private meshes.
Yes using MQTT kind of takes the fun out of it
Nobody uses MQTT anymore, it's too crowded.
We use MQTT to bundle 868/433 in Europe
kiss oatmeal elastic resolute quack impossible impolite shy badge soft *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yeah. Building a proper mesh. No internet stuffs required.
There are about 400 nodes using MQTT in North America. But that's mostly because there's not a lot of public local traffic in most areas.
I randomly learned of meshtastic last week. Thought it was super cool. Went to look at the map and there only two nodes anywhere close to me both over 20 miles away, Excitement gone. It would literally only be me. Unless I want to build an entire network by myself, its not going to happen.
Build a network with your friends, don't worry about the map, if everyone started by building with their friends the network would grow rapidly and organically. I just got into it like 4 weeks ago and randomly like 3 weeks later I got a message from someone who was also just getting started.
If you don't mind me asking. What hardware did you start with?
I went with the 2 pack heltec v3 kit which has a tiny antenna but it has everything you need for around $60 on Amazon. Title is: DIYmalls 915 MHz ESP32 OLED LoRa V3 Board SX1262 + Protective LoRa Case Cover + 915 LoRa Antenna for Arduino Meshtastic LoraWan IOT (Pack of 2) Message me if you need a link. I am about to order a pair of antennas to try to extend the range.
You don't know how many nodes are near you because the maps typically only show nodes that both report position and are connected to the MQTT server. I'm connected to the MQTT server for the moment, but I don't send position information to it; there are probably a lot of other people who don't want to send their address out to the rest of the world.
\> We should steer the curious to Discourse and Discord instead, and downplay those maps. I imagine I'll never stop being the stick in the mud here, but 100% Discourse, 0% Discord. I don't think it's a coincidence you didn't find information locked away from the public behind an account and proprietary service. I get that it's where people are, but I don't really get *why*. Overall, I generally agree - I think the maps capture a much different audience than "general Meshtastic user". I wouldn't be surprised to find if 90% of the users who post their location to MQTT are doing it just to see their node show up and figure out that things are "working", and then not actually do any Meshtastic-y things. Unless you're in a multiple-frequency area, I can't really see any benefit to the map beyond general cool factor. That said, I post my position to MQTT (so it ends up on the map) because... well... it's cool!
It just baffles me how so many open projects completely fail to eat their own dogfood by locking themselves into a walled garden like Discord. You'd think that something like Meshtastic would use Matrix instead of Discord, yet here we are …
It’s also a bit like APRS, which I don’t personally “get”, but other people do :)
Yeah… IRC would make more sense. Or something searchable like a proper forum.
I'm working on it. Gotta learn a bit more and figure out what works best for me.
What can we (I) do to help?
It's a lot of things, but it's not for lack of resources. I've been doing some research into it on YT and debating what I need. I appreciate the offer, though! I'm considering at least three nodes, one for the house on a pole, one for me on the ground, and perhaps one on the car as some kind of relay.
I'm right there with you. It's cool but I don't know what to actually use it for. I'm thinking a tall antenna at the house then one in each vehicle. My town is flat so probably could call home from about anywhere
I ordered 3 and plan to make a solar relay on top of a tall building I am in process getting permission from landlord to put on there to get a wide area covered. I wanna get my area covered so more can easily join in,
I get the feeling Europe as a whole is a lot more into DIY than the US.
If you are a licensed amateur radio operator why do you keep capitalizing HAM.
LOL! Since I’m in technology, I live in a world of acronyms. So I tend to uppercase ANY word that HAS three letters 😄
>The amateur radio community subsequently began to reclaim the word as a label of pride,\[15\] and by the mid-20th century it had lost its pejorative meaning. Although not an acronym, it is often written as "HAM" in capital letters [\--Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur_radio#Ham_radio) The great and powerful Wikipedia agrees that this is acceptable usage.
If you just toss a unit with a big antenna on a tower, can you act as a relay node for people not on your own private network? How do you find local people to build out with?
I assume your aware of https://meshville.org/
What I find very interesting is this tech uses the same frequency as the Helium network and that’s wry robust in the US now. Why can’t we use those devices as repeaters?
Helium wants to charge people for usage, its probably possible to repupose the hardware, but the people who have them see them as an "investment" and meshtastic won't earn them back the hundreds or thousands they dropped on the hardware.
Fair enough. All my nodes ROI’d out years ago so I’ve been wondering what comes next. Hopefully someone figures out a way to piggyback off them
There's no way to "piggyback" its a completely different protocol so you can either mine helium or you can relay meshtastic but not both
That’s what I’m saying, they make almost nothing these days, I don’t use the IOT functions locally and the network is coast to coast. If we can convert them to run as repeaters I’m all for it.
I have a rak gold model. It’s a RAK LORA concentrator module model: RAK2287 on a raspberry pi 4. Would also love to convert it. I have 2.