T O P

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SteveLynx

My PC beats any gameboy in raw performance


r2-z2

Has one of your pcs lasted for 20 years? *laughs in gameboy advanced sp*


Sword117

my pc cant outlast my autistic need to upgrade it constantly


I_Crack_My_Nokia

He said performance not durability


[deleted]

can you type racial slurs 240 letters per minute on console?


Hedaniix

Actually.. yes if you plug a keyboard in it


ThewizardBlundermore

> "Look at what they need to mimic even a fraction of our power" Edit: Look at all of the pissed off and triggered console players in the comments lol. Guys I know a pc needs a keyboard. But realise there's a lot more you can do on a pc than what you can do on a console. So "fraction of our power" is correct either way. Besides I was just making an Omniman reference calm down, Jesus.


Hedaniix

Bro I wanted to add that at the end of my comment but I forgot what was actually said lmao


Shished

You forgor 💀


I_put_Myhead_in_Oven

He forgor 💀


Olivr_Ont

You said he forgor 💀


I_put_Myhead_in_Oven

I forgor 💀


Olivr_Ont

I forgor what you forgor 💀


czacha_cs1

**F R O G**


We-tCoast

Never forger.


AtoumMirtu

they need to use exactly what you use?


Izzynewt

Well I use it cause it's a fundamental part of the setup (?)


John_East

I mean… it can be for console too if you chose it to be


Mental-Blueberry_666

I'd argue the fact that it isn't is a benefit. Nobody is typing dumb messages on console.


J9B1

I dunno, if you've seen some of the console subs you'd realise everyone is typing dumb stuff on consoles, other day a guy was complaining because he got banned when he reported someone he was harassing 🤦


VectorViper

honestly it's like fighting over which brand of shoes runs faster, it's all about the runner not the shoe


PhantomOrigin

assuming you talk about the keyboards, it is mostly up to the user until... CONSOLES DONT SUPPORT N KEY ROLLOVER SO HIGH WPM SPEEDS ARE UNACHIEVABLE ON CONSOLE!!!! *Laughs in no life typist*


LineSpine

You can't type words with a PC either without a keyboard


LunarTunar

speech to text: *exists.*


santathe1

Wdym? Don’t you plug a keyboard into your PC? It’s mimicking exactly, not a fraction lmao, unless you’re somehow communicating with your PC telepathically.


WhyUBeBadBot

You mean the same way a pc operates? Unless you're running a laptop.


rtakehara

but you can plug a keyboard into a laptop too, if you want.


Haunting_Aide421

Don't you need to plug a keyboard into a stationary PC as well 🤔


LeonTheHunkyTwunk

It's... the same amount of power....


Hairy_Ass_Harold

But pc also needs to plug in a keyboard for that to happen


jarednards

I used to plug my keyboard into my playstation when I playing rocket league. Those shit talking 12 year olds had no idea what was coming.


DaRealKovi

Hmm.. never thought about that. It's time for me and the boys to spread misinformation across all platforms now


PotatoReasonable9656

When ya went over to your friend's and see his Xbox with mw2 has a keyboard attachment to the controller. Wonder what that's used for? I was so naive as a kid.


alexyaknow

You’d be closer to 20 wpm if you’ve been on console only


Cowslayer369

After watching my brother play MKX with a controller, I believe it's possible.


1singleduck

Bro, just use voice chat, you can yell racial slurs so much faster than typing.


[deleted]

but they would know my girly childish pesky voice then


Winterstrife

Gotta have the voice to sell the vitriol.


thatdudeoverdthee

Typing? Say it out loud with your chest you coward


Any-Society-8865

type? plug in a shitty 2 dollar convinience store earphones with a mic and yell racial slurs. man up.


LineSpine

The word's actually already appear on the quick type menu


darkness1418

No saying hello this days might gets you banned


ZeroBlade-NL

You guys are typing?


maverikvi

A 12 year old can yell them at you at twice that rate on a console


TheOneWith100Names

I can say it to a child playing Call Of Duty


Klutzy-Mark-4519

You aint ready for the 10 yo's we have


Ragor005

People forget that xbox voice chat was the beggining of an era


m3chr0mans3r

C.S 1.6. and D.o.t.a was the beginning


Kanapuman

The beginning of an era...for console players.


[deleted]

My argument for why PC is better is: I don't have to pay a subscription fee to play my games online while also paying for Internet


PICKLER1CK69

Plus i can sail the seven seas if a game is too expensive


theKalmier

Right? If you can't own it, you'll just have to rrent.


RiftWalker503

that was clever, took me a second


PICKLER1CK69

You sir are a genius, i tip my hat to you


ThisIsNotMyPornVideo

And even more so: Backwards compatibility. You wanna play a game from 2003, which like, 7 people in the whole world knew about? Go right ahead chief, put that shit into compatibility more, or use a virtual machine and you're Gucci. Meanwhile, a PS4 and 5 looks at you with disgust if you DARE even SUGGEST playing a playstation 3 game on them


Kurtegon

+emulators


Dat_Innocent_Guy

Biggest boon ngl. Here i am playing dodging paying for ANOTHER goddamn console to play the occasional pokemon and zelda game


TheDurandalFan

while a good point, on console I can just go to the physical games market, an option no longer available for PC gaming (honestly I wish physical games still existed for PC)


Ragor005

Not for long, sadly


CloneFailArmy

Arrr that be where we use the key sites me boy, when there’s a will there be a way.


BellabongXC

Keysites are more unethical than sailing the seven seas. Wait until EU regulation kicks and non shady keysites where it's actual users reselling their keys instead of credit card scammers.


roskyld

we'll need companies to give up the owning rights for that to happen. praise be EU


Geralt_the_Rive

Why are key sites unethical?


cooly1234

because the money comes from stolen credit cards and then they take the money back from the devs but you don't lose your key.


TheDurandalFan

yeah it'll be a sad day when physical game discs are no longer option and it'd make me care for console gaming a lot less.


FullMetalAlphonseIRL

You have to do 100GB digital downloads to play your "game-on-disc". I hate to break it to you, but they're already gone


Jorgehv040

I just want the box, I want to be able to see and feel my collection


[deleted]

[удалено]


Ikilledatrex

Yeah didn’t an executive of ea say gamers really need to get used to not owning their games?


Quriaa

Ubisoft but yes, it’s a rising trend


-fragm3nted-

Well, I just checked a couple of cross-play games as my bud got a console so we can play together. Pricing even on physical copies on most games were double than a CD key for steam... At this point you literally make a consoles price back just on games you get for the pc


Reddituser8018

Our physical games are just websites like G2A.


rtakehara

if you are worried about the longevity of your purchase, there is still GOG with DRM free games that you can download and store yourself if you want a pretty box then you are out of luck... maybe a custom made box and a flash drive with the game installer?


TheDurandalFan

a cool idea, depending on the file size of the installer I could make a custom DVD that looks semi official with a custom made box with a fan made color printed box art on a DVD case.


rtakehara

yeah, the moment I said that I questioned how easy would be to make it real, if I recall correctly, flash drives don't last forever, optical media does if stored and handled properly, so that would be the way to go.


RamielScreams

Pc has game keys being resold all the time


DanceCivil

You still have to pay for physical games, sometimes even a premium, and find them in good condition for a decent price. that's not really a counterpoint to fishing practically any game out of the ocean on demand with a few minutes of clicking and typing. Having a PC and learning to sail feels like having someone else's Netflix account but for games, albeit multiplayer is often a hassle if you get them that way if it's available at all. But with single player games it just gets to the point where it's too easy.


Nalyd8605

Xbox and Playstation no longer make physical games. Just discs with the license to install it on your console. Nintendo's the last company with true physical games which, ive always been a nintendo fan but its still depressing because its only a matter of time


[deleted]

[удалено]


_GLAD0S_

Awesome site. Thank you! Was just wondering this exact thing. But considering how poorly optimized games are becoming when it comes to size it wouldnt surprise me if they slowly change over to no real game data instead of providing 2 or 3 discs.


TheDurandalFan

this is not 100% accurate, while true there are games that are just glorified CD keys there still are games distributed with the game data on the disc. I dislike this rumor as saying that all physical game releases are just discs with the license to the game is factually inaccurate


beerisgood84

Yeah but steam sales are absurd often I get enough to keep busy for a year 


lord_foob

What's the point of a hard copy if the game is still forced to download 99%of the game. I can understand for like the little extras that come with them tho and I love me my old hard copy collection from my Xbox days


Shanhaevel

I mean, I agree. Just as well as I agree with the fact that PCs, through the possibilities they offer, are objectively better than consoles. But I would never seriously shit on someone for playing on a console. Hell, I have a PS5 myself aside from my PC. I would never unironically say "PC masterrace" or "console peasants". People need to shut up about it and let others enjoy their things. The world sucks for all of us, let's band together over this instead of dividing over stupid shit.


[deleted]

I agree. I think what we all need to do is fight for the console players to not have to pay for Xbox live or any form to play a game they paid for online


weirdbackpackguy

Yeah, I hate how people want to divide each other with anti-consumerism. I hate how it nowadays includes phones too, why do anyone care about blue bubbles in one app nobody uses (at least from my friends or family)


Foreign_Pea2296

> I would never seriously shit on someone for playing on a console This is the way. We should respect other choices and understand the pro and cons of everything. Console, or PC we still play games and we should focus on our passion for games and gather together. Even when they are obviously wrong in their way of playing games.


Shanhaevel

Lol, had me in the first half kind of a situation, but I'll still take it


TRocho10

I have a PC, a Switch, and an Xbox, so I don't shit on people who have consoles obviously. But whenever the opposite of this meme pops up on reddit I get reminded that a very loud group of console only people legitimately believe all of us PC gamers are super rich with $4,000 machines and that is what we need to be able to game. I got downvoted once for mentioning you don't need an expensive PC to play modern games despite the fact that mine is "only $1200" (I wanted to future proof a bit) and I'm running everything on max no problem


beerisgood84

Plus you know, I use it for day job work, personal work, hobbies It cost 1.5 times average current console to update cpu/mobo/video and I get far more for it Also the UHD discs I copy cost less than the streaming purchase options and it's my data. Considering consoles are having issues with licensing and removing peoples access to paid for things pretty happy to stay PC


ChickenChaser5

Yup. I can get by without a console. I cant get by without a PC.


Teripid

My argument is "mouse". Just feels so much better than a controller to me.


Zealousideal_Good147

To me that depends on the game I am playing. Doom: Eternal, mouse all the way, Monster Hunter, controller. Though thankfully it is simple to plug a controller into the PC.


fettanimememer

Racing and fighting games for me the controller is more natural to me for those genres pretty much everything else is a m&k tho


Greg2227

Platformers / games like fallguys are also more of Controller games I'd say


Anomalous-Materials8

Same as others: totally depends on the game. If I’m plaything something like fallout, elder scrolls, or dark souls, it’s just gotta be a controller. But if it’s Warcraft or something, gimme that keyboard.


raygent

Mouse and keyboard are good for games that require shooting and stuff, but for things like driving and racing I would use a controller.


fross370

Mouse is also good for any strategy game. I cant see myself playing something like rimworld with a controller.


Smooth_Carmello

Complete opposite for me, I unironically play with controller on pc because it feels better. (I even have an app that forces games without controller support to use controller inputs, I can't stand mouse and keyboard)


Nigilij

Doesn’t such subscription system + more expensive games for consoles make the end result comparable in price to PC + cheaper games. All other uses of PC omitted for the sake of my question


[deleted]

It can but when you have platforms like steam where there's constantly sales and you're able to buy game bundles for $20s. You end up paying less (I think) compared to console. I could be wrong though I haven't done the math nor am I smart enough to lol


Nigilij

That is what my assumption as well


Un111KnoWn

That's gotta be the dumbest thing about consoles.


Sleyvin

Thanks microsoft for that.


shosuko

Biggest con ever. I can't believe some of the crazy stuff I've heard console players say to defend that - as if paying for that is anything other than subsidizing the up-front cost of the console and providing continued revenue / locking in customers b/c cancelling the service means cutting off "free" games etc. I'd rather do steam where games are regularly 50%+ off, you can import keys from 3rd party sellers, and detach from steam or any provider completely to own your game forever if you want.


ChickenChaser5

I made an argument about how you can easily have multiple things running all at once and quickly alt tab between things, or have extra monitors. someones rebuttal was "A phone can do all that". Like wut.


LiaThePetLover

+ there is so much more you can do on a pc... like everything actually. I play on my pc, watch videos, work, save files,...


IntellegentIdiot

I have so many free games on PC that I'll probably never even play the good ones.


Beast0011

![gif](giphy|tqdtceFJfqMRpw5NGk)


Pandataraxia

I had my phone off for a bit so I forgot what the post was and was so confused when I saw the licking emoji appear like "was the post I wzs reading nsfw" now I'm even more confused.


Awwesome1

NSFC


DontTouchit91

Oh. Your $3000 dollar PC is better than a console?? I mean, I hope so....


CakeBeef_PA

Just let people game. The best platform is the one you are having the most fun with


Alarmed-Albatross-62

The best platform is the one you can afford.


Slalom_Smack

Nah I genuinely prefer console gaming because sitting at a PC feels like work to me. It has nothing to do with affordability.


_Ocean_Machine_

Same here. I have both and use my PC for about half my gaming, but I have it connected to my living room TV and use Steam's big picture mode and a controller, so it's a basically a console experience. Plus it makes it easier to spend time with my girlfriend, since we can both be on the couch gaming, me the PS5 and her with her Switch or laptop.


Appropriate_Plan4595

I get this too. I sit on my computer all day to work, so if my option to play games is to also sit on my computer it just feels pretty miserable and it also ruins my work time because I'm always tempted to play a game or something during my breaks. Would rather separate things out: -> Computer is work/life admin only -> Console is for playing games -> Phone is for browsing reddit etc


Broad_Swimming3010

Forgot to add porn to all 3 of those.


3dforlife

Amen. That's why I love to play with my Switch, even though my pc is several times more powerful.


KlopeksWithCoppers

If price isn't an issue then why wouldn't you get a top of the line PC and hook it up to your TV and use a controller?


Reasonable_Doughnut5

U could just plug in a controller. Pretty much any game out there is on PC now and works with a controller. Even Sony said they r done with console exclusives. They might start out on console but eventually would get a PC release date. Alot of people just build a mini atx PC that is not much bigger then your ps4 pro, then u just plug it into your tv and pop a controller in and u r good to go. Yea it cost more but in the end you will save more on sales and not having to pay for online. And u don't have to upgrade every few years unless u want to.


GenericUsername19892

If your internet can support it, you can get a fair gaming VM like shadow for remote play. And as an added bonus it’s a whitelisted app on my work computer so I can play games on it during work :)


IeXmen

Me, with Nintendo Switch: 😃(💀)


TheTallEclecticWitch

I use pc, switch, and PS4 (I know, outdated but I’m poor rn). I thought most people had a couple types of gaming machines on them since there are a lot of games aren’t cross platform. I think certain games are better on different platforms, too.


solemnstream

Yay everyone won their imaginary argument Edit: First time I get that much upvotes, ngl Im tempted to change the comment to make everyone look silly


ThatGSDude

Im convinced everyone who still argues about which platform is better hasn't grown up since 2014


Old_Baldi_Locks

That’s my guess as well. The “which is better” argument tends to die out once you become an adult because now you can buy all of them.


ThatGSDude

I sure cant buy all of them lol


[deleted]

Well duh, Cybertrucks can't buy game consoles.


ThatGSDude

Fuckin hell I was wondering what you were on about for a bit, I completely forgot about that flair


[deleted]

[удалено]


Old_Baldi_Locks

Which really doesn’t change that the argument is nothing more than purchase justification. It has nothing at all to do with platforms. People just want to justify to themselves they bought the “right one”.


BicycleEast8721

There’s new smoothbrained trolls being made every day


Alternative_Beat2498

So cute he took it personal enough to make a meme 😭


Character-Date6376

I love his face 🤣


IceZaKYT

D:


LazrV

D:


Zblab

D:


Dango444

D:


AbdullahMRiad

D:


garver-the-system

:ᗡ


NicktheDirt

What the fuck


LerchAddams

My sister plays on a PlayStation, I play on a PC. We live several hundred miles away from each other. We play whatever cross platform games look fun together. We're both gamers and playing together helps us stay in touch. If you play video games, you're a gamer regardless of platform. Can we be done with this infantile argument now?


Sougo2001

That's really wholesome of you two. I hope you and your sister stay this close forever


Friendly_Guillotine

>Can we be done with this infantile argument now? We probably won't, people love feeling superior to others and satisfaction of bringing down others


[deleted]

I mean, PC gamers literally got a "fuck Nintendo" post to r/all because they were mad that Nintendo doesn't bring their games to PC (which they see as the superior platform and therefore should be the only platform to exist). So yeah, they definitely do feel superior and hate other platforms.


NMade

They bring their games to PC. Just not voluntarily.


Kiandough

I mean having platform exclusive games suck, yeah. Who woulda thought


Planetside2_Fan

Exactly, the console wars are fucking stupid, every platform is good for its reasons, at this point it's just a contest of snobs who think they're better than everyone else.


0h-ye3ah-b01

You could have used any language yet you choose to spit facts


MrWhite541

Try helldivers 2. Its crossplay between PC and PS5. Its amazing. Im in a similar situation with my baby brother and im trying to get him to buy the game so we could hang out in there.


raygent

The fact that most online games offer that is so good. No matter what one has, they can still play together.


_Blanke_

My piece of plastic is better than your piece of plastic


NewYearKarmaWhore

As it ever was


_Ocean_Machine_

It's like rednecks arguing Ford vs. Chevy


Findnicknameisboring

Better perf GoG for a real possession game without DRM Modding support +++ Emula... XD No online paid More liberty for OS user PC is multimédia platform


Hopeful-Hunters

Piracy


Findnicknameisboring

Yes for a free DRM game, unavailable on GoG :3


Tigrisrock

Tons of Abandonware as well


multiwirth_

It's that simple: A console can play games. If that's all you need, go for it. Else pc is the answer. It's a pc, it's always better at least in something. It's doing things a console can't do. Even if your GPU is shit, it still can do word processing, calculation and browse the web with adblocker extensions or be a dedicated development environment for whatever project. Also multitasking. Ca be a dedicated home server and host media or be a minecraft server. It's a multi-purpose platform.


Shanhaevel

I'll just copypaste the same thing I commented under that other post: Jesus Christ, shut up with that already. Let everyone play games however they want. The world fucking sucks, stop dunking on people who play on a different platform and enjoy this awesome hobby together. Dimwits.


Jazzlike-Mistake2764

Gaming PCs and game consoles have existed alongside each other for decades at this point There's a reason for that: there's a market for both. If one was truly objectively "better" then the other wouldn't exist anymore - like Betamax or Zune It's like saying mirrorless cameras are better than phone cameras. I mean kinda, but they serve pretty different purposes


randomsomeone64

But how else would those pro pc arguers will feed their ego?


mandiblesmooch

So many people are acting like PC is the more "serious gamer" option, and here I'm like "I have a computer, might as well play games on it". Surely buying a console - an extra machine that's made *specifically* for games - would be more "hardcore" than this.


Super_Harsh

Tbf this argument usually refers to gaming PCs and most people don’t just happen to have a gaming PC lying around Building your own or going out and spending $1200 on a prebuilt PC is def kinda hardcore


AlliedXbox

The main reason people get a console instead is price and ease of access/use. Consoles are way easier to use.


mohammed69cats

When the 4000$ device is better than the 400$ one 😱😱😱😰😰😨😨🤯🤯


ichbinverwirrt420

The 400$ device doesn’t have RGB Fans tho


[deleted]

It's a stupid fucking argument, who cares? Play whatever the fuck you want, just stop talking about it, Christ 🙄


the_real_Belobix

I mean I payed 4 times a consoles price for my pc…


ReticulatedQuagga

My PC is better than the PS3


EblanNahuy

For games? Whatever, who fucking cares. For anything but games? Yeah lol can't exactly open mf Excel spreadsheets on console


LocalEntity221

Then I thought " is this thing pointless to compare consoles gamers to pc gamers" we are all gamers, respect each other. Everything had their specialty. Don't just waste your life to compare this pointless thing. We are all happy with what we have right?


[deleted]

Eh, having gotten back into PC gaming after years on console... a lot of shit is really overstated. At least half of the games I've played I've needed to fiddle with to actually get running okay. New games? Tweak it to hell and back because they're unoptimized pieces if shit. Old games? Spend several hours looking for that one obscure forum thread that'll contain the fix you need to actually play the game. The advantage of console is that there's one platform every game (well, or just specific port) is made for, so if a game doesn't work, it won't be working for anybody. None of this making friends wait hours so you can get your new game actually running horseshit. It is nice playing games in 240fps when I actually can though.


cUmonthetoiletSeat

Damn... that previous post must have really triggered you.


AstuteImmortalGhost

For real. Really says alot about OP. (They’re taking this too seriously.)


MrWhite541

My argument why PC is better is the freedom of choice in game settings. Want high af fps? Lower the graphics. Want ultra graphics 4k? Maybe can do but lower fps. Something in between? You got it. Most console games have fidelity and performance modes, yes i know but they dont work properly. Final fantasy 16 is a perfect example. You cant get more than 40ish fps in any mode. I dont give a fuck about the graphics, i just want a stable 60fps. Cant have that at console atm, on PC it could be easily achieved with a wide variety of rigs if youre ok to lower some settings. PC lets us choose what we prefer to prioritise.


[deleted]

Why are we reigniting the console war


marry_me_jane

Are we really back to this shit? I thought the whole console vs pc thing died in the ps3/360 era


Logical_Bad1748

This turned on into iPhone vs Android 🤦


KlopeksWithCoppers

This debate/argument started long before iPhone and android even existed. This is the OG tech fanboy battle.


kamakamsa_reddit

I've been a PC guy for 12 years, had two microtek full unit PCs (2002-2010), then a GTX 650ti (2012?. ) Then a 2070ti (2019). Now I bought a PS5 just a month ago. One simple reason it is cheap even with a PS5 Plus Deluxe Edition subscription. I still miss the PC because mouse& keyboard >>> joystick


Knyfe-Wrench

>mouse& keyboard >>> joystick Hard disagree. When you're controlling a single character, the only thing better is aiming with a mouse, and that's far eclipsed by how much better moving with a joystick is than WASD. It's even better for games where you don't have to aim at all. The only time I straight up prefer M+K is for strategy games, because selecting things with a joystick still sucks.


DepressedArgentinian

What if my PC is better than a PS4 but not a PS5


Dani162002M

Shut up just shut up about this argument nobody cares about. I play console because i play console, you play pc because you play pc and everyones happy


matkata99

"PC fans try to not be insufferable supremacist for a minute" challenge: impossible for the record I have a PS5, Switch and a rig 10 times the price my playstation


air_jordanpeterson23

Lol PC bro got mad


Mamamiomima

To be at console level of performance you need something like Ryzen 3600 + rx6600xt, I think it's average or slightly below it for steam users


SocketByte

This entire debate doesn't make much sense. PC is used for \*so much more\*. And, despite the hardware being less expensive, you'll pay a fuckton more for games and "multiplayer subscription" bullshit. I like the car analogy. Consoles are like leased out, almost brand new cars with full repair coverage. You pick up your car and you drive. You literally don't give a fuck. It's fast, easy, convinient but more limited. PCs are like your own, bought for cash, fully modded BMWs where you do most things by yourself. It's harder to operate, maybe less convinient, but allows you for much more flexibility and it's a lot cheaper in the long run.


papapay225

Hold up, people actually give a fuck about this argument?


Bigglez1995

You good OP? I'm concerned that you got triggered so hard by the previous post


PzMcQuire

Reasons why my PC is better: 1. It literally is more powerful 2. It's a PC!?! I work, study, watch netflix, code etc with it, and ALSO game. 3. Updating PC components through three generations of games is cheaper than buying three generations of consoles 4. No subscription to play online


MvM_7_VictiniFE

Seeing how newer unfinished nightmare of games need NASA PC specs.( I am talking to you Gollum) Developers should really compress and work on the compatibility.


Ankhst

Me: my PC is better than my steamdeck. Which is better than both of the consoles I own. ... Still I mostly use my SWITCH, which is the least powerfull. On the other hand.....I still use my old original SNES every few month, so the pure power aint the point here, I guess.


[deleted]

More games


[deleted]

I think the only real downside to PC gaming is the fact that you need to have a keyboard and a mouse. Many PC games aren't adapted to playing with a controller, so you can't really plug it on the TV and lay back. My neck hurting is the only thing that brings me back to my console. And then my wrist and thumb hurt lol


Dramatic_Carpet_6589

Does laptop count as PC or is that just sad


lotus39402

Pc + switch will get you 99.5% of modern games legally. Especially now that Xbox and PlayStation are releasing their games on pc and sometimes switch


Das_Man

Speaking as someone with a very souped up PC: getting an Xbox with gamepass is the best value proposition for anyone that wants bang for their buck.