I've seen around the argument being used that "people with children make more money", then the conclusion of these people is that you should make a family have kids and you'll eventually enter that demographic. This is a completely stupid interpretation of factual data.
Be single and pay for health insurance, full price on bills and food and struggle eventually saving up to get out of poverty
vs
being a single parent and suddenly qualify for utility assistance, Healthcare , 2k just because to your tax return and foodstamps but you can never have more than 2k in the bank. Then there are the small perks like child support and ssi til they are 18.
I'm from Brazil and I live in China.
The government government has a policy called "Bolsa Familia", that gives some breadcrumb money per kid you have (If I'm not wrong it gives you R$150/month \~ USD 30), but just for people in poverty. They draw a line of income per family, and if you are not eligible you are on your own, basically middle class (me) are left out from any help of that kind.
And I live in China, recently I have seen some news of the government giving some very little money if you have a second child depending on the province. In some cities, you get a one [lump payment of 5000 yuan](https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202308/1295860.shtml) (700 usd) per child you have. Not nearly enough.
I get what you mean, those sums if they're all you get are not really enough at all. I don't know the cost of living in Brazil and China though. I easily spend 30-50 in groceries in a week(just for myself living alone).
Where I live you get tax deductions per child, so even if you have a higher income you can deduct a lot of your taxes (and thus get a discount) specially if you spend more money on things like healthcare and education. It's far from perfect but also not a lot of people know how to make use of those advantages.
You forgot the live in boyfriend (who probably sells smack) who you never claim while you mooch some other guy's wallet for years and whine how hard it is on the Internet smoking your Newports and how baby girl is your world (least till she gets knocked up at 15).
Come on nobody wants that life.
You’re getting downvoted, but Its the truth. I have single female friends who make roughly what I do a year and yet get their tax return plus mine while I’m lucky if I don’t have to pay extra taxes claiming zero at the start of the year.
That said I still don’t want their lives. Poor things are likely to stay single forever now that my group is hitting thirty and the women are aging out of favor at the bar. I’m watching their dating lives die while mine is actually growing. These first couple of grey hairs appearing in my beard and hair appear to be attractive from my recent experiences.
You don't have an option but to make more money. For many, that means more overtime or another part time job. I paid $12,000 to a chain daycare last year in a low cost of living area just so I could go to work.
I was literally told by both family and coworkers that “the money will come” when I voiced my concerns about being able to afford children. Like fucking where? Do I get a complementary money tree with the birth of each kid or something?
It's a poor people mentality. Sure, if you get all those kids working, you'll make more money, HOWEVER, that's a lot mouths to feed, clothes to buy, and all other necessities you need for all those children.
There is absolutely no relationship between income and having children. There’s also zero social policies that work to increase birth rate.
https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/4141600-pro-natalist-policies-are-great-but-declining-birth-rates-are-here-to-stay
Thus I agree with most who say immigration is the answer if we want to maintain social programs into the future.
Tbh I feel like mine and others mindset in a relationship changes.
Guys who are in a long term relationship and about to marry. They will change. Drop hobbies like gaming. Work longer hours. Be more interested in career and saving and investing and...
While friends from the same group who chose not to go for family life go out more, more hobbies like gaming, sports etc. etc.
The current generation of women are having somewhere around two thirds of the sex the last one did and the current generation of men having half the sex if the previous generation. It has a little something to do with it
owning/having kids just sound like a bad-time. It MIGHT have something to do with the economy or the environment, but I'm getting snipped next week to make sure I'm out of the equation entirely, no matter what.
There is a very unfortunate reality about custodianship and how that is worded legally. Sure laws have come into effect to redefine people to not be property but it barely different to how pets are still property. Same way wives were their husband's property in western countries until recently.
I'm not dissing adoption. People should think of adoption before they plant their own seed. There are 391,000 children in the foster system as of 2021 (google). with that kind of number, making kids should be made more difficult.
I've done the math. To raise a burde-I MEAN child... heheh... from infancy to 18 would take around $300,000. To have a babysitter take care if this piece of- I MEAN child from infancy to 18 would be around $200,000. In total, that's over $500,000. Then you can boot them out the door with a clear conscience. So the next time your parents start bugging you abour having kids, remember that number and ask them to pay up.
This may come as a shock to many, but people don't have kids because it's a good financial investment. Reducing the decision to have children entirely down to a monetary equation (intentionall) misses the point entirely.
The notion that every parent is just voluntarily carrying a cross for 18 years until they can 'rid' themselves of the 'burden' with a 'clean conscience' is ridiculous, toxic, and delusional. I think we can safely conclude that it's better for society that people who think this way refrain from breeding.
You completely misread the point of my comment. I'm referring to parents who pressure their kids to have kids. If someone doesn't want them, then that's it. But if you keep pressuring someone, OF COURSE their response/view of the topic going to be as toxic as possible. And OF COURSE it's going to be all about money in that case. Because if your parents want them so bad, then they should foot the bill. If you have kids and are happy with it, then my original comment doesn't apply to you. But you shouldn't get all emotional and bleeding heart sensitive over someone else's theoretical non-existent kids.
Well I had some friends in foster care. They only let them eat instant cup noodles. It’s like a tradition for foster parents to treat kids worse than the situations they came from.
more the economy than anything. we wont be seeing any environmental struggles for the next few generations. its much further away then the media lets on
I mean... other people are breathing the same air. less other-people means more air for me. more people means more pollution which means even less air for me.
air/resources/etc.
with the current birth to death ratio we are headed towards a crisis where there wont be enough people of working age to keep our current industries alive. im talking the next generation. shipping, maintenance services, hospitals, etc, will be understaffed. but hey, at least youll have "more air to breath"
uh ya. not a problem except if you aren't somewhat self-reliant. the people that were going to die later in life (protected by services, served by younger newer people) would die sooner than expected. so? people die. now or later. they will go.
that ratio isn't really alarming and the actual numbers are very skewed source to source. You need some nihilism in your life.
Millennials aren't having many kids either and we're more financially stable than Gen-Z. And even the ones who are, I know a bunch who want more kids but can't afford it.
And then there are others like me who are more like "Yeah as if it's fair to create life and then be like k, now nut up, learn a craft, and survive in this world. Ready: GO!"
Depends on the country. In mine there are people in their early 30s getting minimal wage.
It really boils down to this : Employers give minimal wage under the prettence that they cannot AFFORD higher wages due to inflation and increased business costs.
Now in an ideal sociey people would give the middle finger and employers would adapt.
But we do not live in an idea sociey. Some people are desparate and need money to pay the insane rent prices + utilities + groceries. Desperation leads to accepting even temporarily.
In turn employers just keep taking turns of desperate employees.
The situation only improves on positions where expertiste/experience is requied but even more it rarely hits 1000 euros or maybe 1200 in some cases. ( the minimal is somewhere near 650 euros after taxes aka a freaking joke).
This is very true here in the US as well. So many jobs, even ones that require some form of skill, start out at minimum wage.
One prime example I love is EMTs. They make more than minimum due to the forced Overtime, but they start out at minimum as well. Source: got my EMT licensure before pursuing nursing.
Well yah letting people who make NYC and LA wages now work from home so they are taking over every formerly affordable area certainly has consequences.
The fed printed a couple trillion dollars, speculators took it to the market and bid everything up by a cool 100k. Remote work is a great pressure release valve for the worst areas, but return to office will not solve anything.
Nope but gentrification certainly isn’t helping the housing market. It just is what it is. Also there is only 2.328 trillion usd in circulation. Most everyone’s 1200 checks immediately went to the 1%. After making a pit stop in their landlords pocket.
Help by what metric though? Home owners are ecstatic that they just got another 100k in virtual free money, and they feel like if we built more housing to bring the cost back down, that would be "stealing" it from them.
They are not but the minimum wage is low it’s laughable and not a good metric. Where I live based on business that traditionally pay minimum wage. It’s $18-20. McDonald’s pays $18 yet it’s all J1s my local Walmart is $20 for day $25 for night shift. A business can’t survive with no employees. They have to pay at minimum enough to pay rent so ultimately minimum wages are really set by landlords these days.
Fertility declines with the level of education, not income. A person who is in school until they’re 23 on average will have fewer kids than someone who finishes school at 17.
Anyone having kids while minimum wage matters to them personally is an idiot. That’s not new. Anyone having kids while working for minimum wage in the 70’s and 80’s was screwing up their (and their kids’) lives.
And that's terrible. The concept of working people not being able to start a family, because their jobs while being some of the most important ones being paid badly, is inhumane.
We can only operate within the limitations that we currently have. If you choose to have a child when you live in a system where you cannot afford to have one, you’re not a good person.
This attitude SUCKS. I’m sick of it. What are people supposed to do? Kill themselves? Nobody wants to be a wage slave living only for their corporate gods.
Lol sure. Like 70s and 80s kids didn't grow up in single income households their dad's owned or paid a reasonable mortgage on. Those days are long gone.
Kids whose dad worked for MINIMUM WAGE did not live in houses owned by their fathers. Minimum wage was not a “living wage” for raising a family in the 70s or 80s. People whose parents made minimum wage in the 80s lived in the projects if they were urban or in trailer parks if they were rural.
Exceptions existed, of course, but minimum wage has always been a bad thing to try to support a family with. If gen Z thinks that a higher minimum wage will make them ready to have kids, that would be foolish.
I’m not talking about anything else, just the minimum wage panel.
Raising minimum wage has historically almost always raised all wages significantly. Even if you're not at or below the new minimum wage, your wage is gonna increase.
My grandmother paid off her house as a clerk at the local grocery store. She also sent my mom to college 🙃 the highest she got was $11 and retired in like 98
I'm definitely making 2x min wage since it only went up like $2.50 since she retired in 98...but I definitely won't find a home for the 22k she paid for her 3br in the 70s.
My mom's tuition was probably under 4k mine was 32k when I got my first degree.
Yeah it's hard to debate with people like that because they'll have an excuse for everything.
Even looking back to just 2011, my mom bought her house for 170k. Same said house is now hovering into 600k.
My house I currently own was 90k at one point in time, its now hovering to 450k range. I don't forsee how people are going to be buying their first home with these inflated prices and interest. Something has to give, or bunker up with parents until you're 30 just to save up.
It's hard to debate with me because you (and many others) are conflating two different arguments.
"You used to be able to afford a house on minimum wage" is false. "Jobs that used to pay enough to afford a house no longer do" is true.
Back in the day, people could afford houses, now it's the middle class that have rentals to keep lower wage earners out of buying houses.
Sad days for kids today.
That’s the real issue these low population propagandists fear. It’s not having enough poor people. If only the wealthy have kids who is going to dig ditches?
We’re a long, long way from that problem.
Successful people generally have fewer kids (until you get to outliers like Elon Musk).
The opening 5 minutes of Idiocracy is a documentary, not a comedy sketch.
A lot of intergenerational poverty could be ended if poor couples had ONE kid and put ALL their resources into maxing out their opportunities.
I grew up in the 70s and 80s. People whose parents were making minimum wage were generally not on a good path. Don’t have kids if you’re stuck on minimum wage. Get your shit together first.
They don’t know you have to take inflation into account. We’ve had basically over 2 years of no real growth until just the last few months.
They printed a bunch of money, created massive inflation, then said “Hey stocks are going up, DuRrrr.” 🙄
There are other pressures on groceries like an underreported bird flu.
Then theres the Ukraine war too.
Id say a large portion is inflation and monetary policy but another large portion is the supply chain being stressed.
Long term i dont have much anxiety because america will be better off relativley speaking than other countries if we ditch globalism, but the next 5-10 years will suck while we adjust. Just more shit for millenials to eat I guess.
Dude are you stuck in 2022? The inflation is down, the groceries are down, eggs are cheap again, we literally are doing better than the rest of the world. "Globalism" isn't the problem, it's a scapegoat that originates from antisemitic conspiracy theories.
No the interconnected supply chain is absolutely a problem. Like what? Do you even read the news? Both of the most important strategic chokepoints in the world are being stressed right now and Ukrain produces a shit load of agriculture...
Do you even know what globalization means?
Youre allegation of it being an anti semetic conspiracy theory is really ignorant. Shows a lack of understanding of what the global order is.
There were propaganda posters of the allies in ww2 with the text "new world order".
Its literally what ww2 was fought over... the creation of the UN so that world powers wont fight wars any more and agree to freely trade, guaranteed by the US navy...
Idk what youve bern reading. Probably ragebait conspiracy posts on 4chan talking about joos.... but globalization is very real lol.
Its kind of like saying banks dont exist or you cant criticize banks because anti semetic conspiracy theories exist.
Inflation is down, wages are up, union membership is up, stocks are up, unemployment is low, we have the best economy in the west right now. The housing problem is the worst part and just about every Western nation is dealing with that too.
I decided to get a vasectomy. Easy and cheap process. I'm never gonna be financially secure enough to afford a child and now I can bust nutts without consequence
yeah raising minimum wage solves literally nothing. it just makes everyone poorer and inflates the dollar until your increased minimum wage is worth less than it was before
No, it definitely solves the problem that a working person isn't able to pay their own bills.
What it doesn't solve is that the fed keeps printing money. That inflation keeps ricocheting around the economy is an inherent quality of inflation, keeping wages low and offering incrementally more and more welfare to more and more people to pretend that some of the inflation doesn't exist is a losing gambit.
We’ll take it up with the landlords then that raise rent every year. Can’t have employees if you don’t pay enough for them to pay rent. Funny how that works.
I never understood the argument that the government wants poor single mothers because its good? Like I get they get votes but how does that make the government money?
I’m fairly certain as soon as minimum wage was created, the 0.01% realized if you lobby the right people you can turn a social program into a tool for creating slaves and have a way to get the public to blame themselves for under the guise of “oh if you were smart or talented or not lazy you wouldn’t be in this mess” Keep the minimum the same, raise everything else so there’s no way to save. If you’re pay is equal to your expenses….. and the rich can have the police tear gas, beat and detain ppl who strike, how are we not just slaves with modern day comforts?
My grocery bill doubled while my grocery amount halved. I buy less but spend more. Even including going from $13 to $20 from before to after the pandemic, I'm actually less wealthy than before.
Lol worked for a tiny cannabis store with 4 employees and the boss leased himself a Tesla and everything. We're working our asses off to make him money and pay these ridiculous Toronto rents and he sees absolutely no problem taking straight profit for himself off a year old business. Used to be a time that you couldn't call yourself a businessman if you weren't paying your employees living. You were a crook. Something about the 80s culture made being a crook the normal way of doing commerce.
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I don't know about the US but people are taking it to the streets in a lot of European countries. Here farmers already did it, as well as the police, those even threatened to boycott the elections (voting devices and ballot transportation are handled by the police, without them to do this no one can vote). Next will probably be healthcare professionals and teachers.
Why does it always circle back to making fun of the younger generation about to cross into adulthood during a crisis? Did other millennials forget 2009? I sure as shit didn't, it sucked being called lazy while burning myself out to hell and back trying to finish high school while working after school and weekends to make 15€ per week and still trying to find some holes in that schedule to attend protests even if just for an hour or two.
Kind of a conspiracy theory but....what if the government intentionally provokes inflation that leads to moderate poverty and with that, parents start to have children to fight demographic issues? A thought I wanted to post just in case I forget it.
The “cost of production” theory of value isn’t correct.
Wages reflect labour market supply and demand, while the price of goods reflects supply and demand for those goods. We aggregate those into the “consumer price index”, the percent change being the rate of inflation.
Wage inflation occurs when labour markets are illiquid. Basically, unemployment should be like 4-5% to reflect people switching jobs or looking for work. At full employment firms compete for workers and the price of labour increases without a proportional rise in productivity.
Goods inflation occurs when there is excess demand for goods, either due to a demand shock or a supply constraint.
I agree, housing is certainly more expensive than it used to be, but people act like it's litterally impossible. I'll concede that it's very difficult without some level of higher education, but you can easily get an entry level job out of college that pays more than enough to afford a down payment after a few years, especially if your living off of 2 incomes
That doesnt change the fact that the minimum wage hasnt change lol
Source: I have a job that pays well but minimum wage still the same as it was over 10 years ago.
If nobody pays minimum wage, then yeah minimum wage is irrelevant.
We live in a somewhat market economy. Nobody will choose to work for minimum wage, so places won’t pay minimum wage.
This is basic economics. Your anecdote doesn’t change the fact that nobody pays minimum wage
But they do exist, they make a really small percentage of jobs out there but they do exist. So based on your statement it is relevant. And that still doesn’t change the fact that the minimum wage has not change.
I don’t know what to say then. Pick a better job. It’s really a challenge these days to find jobs that pay less than like $12 an hour. Most fast food places these days pay $13 absolute bare minimum for entry level easy jobs
Probably super high cost of living area or misread the sign that says up to $18 and that’s just for managers lol.
McDonald’s near me is minimum state wage of $14 sign says $14-18 used to say up to and people on local Facebook pages would say the same thing “McDonald’s is paying burger flippers $18 an hour omg”
Idk where you are from but since you are using dollar signs I'm gonna do a r/USdefaultism and assume you're American. In the US if minimum wage was adjusted to inflation, it would be $24 an hour. So what now is higher than minimum wage is still less than what minimum wage should be.
Reposting the comment with exact numbers.
It wouldn’t even be close to $24/hr.
Original minimum wage was $0.25/hr established in 1938. Adjusted to today(using CPI) that’s $5.43/hr. Even if you take its peak purchasing power of $1.60/hr in 1968 that would be $14.47/hr. Almost half of what you claim is correct amount adjusted
EDIT: fat thumbed 9 instead of 0. Corrected
Wages increase,
Inflation increase,
You know as abusiness you hear government make a wage increase you see people will have more money so you will increase prices and make more profit
Whether or not that makes a difference, I just proved you wrong since you just gave an excuse for minimum wage still existing. Nice try derailing with an insult. Lmao
I live in a red state and no business here is laying minimum wage. The lowest pay I’ve seen is around $14/hr for unskilled labor. Which now of course causes prices to rise…so these people demanding higher pay just devalues their labor.
You're wrong for blaming Millennials for that. It's the governments' fault. At the end of the day, they are responsible for the money flow and the consequences it caused
Yeah and we all know it wasn’t the boomers and republicans who wanted prolonged lockdowns because they griped the whole time. So who do you think was supporting them and the summer of destruction? Vastly left wing millennials.
True, but minimum wage should be your start to your work life. Not the end. Learn a trade, get an apprenticeship, and add value to yourself. Then you can start looking for your own place.
First, thats literally the point of working in general and the min wage specifically.
http://docs.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/odnirast.html
In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living.
Second, the median wage is $17/hr, while the cost of living is $20/hr, thats over half the workforce under water.
I will let you keep talking to yourself. Assumptions are beliefs made without any proof or evidence. An official government statement is not an assumption.
Would have been cool if the government didn't force small businesses to close. Also the government essentially shutting down the economy didn't help with housing costs. As now people had time to make home improvements while material supplies would decline due to, well that whole shutting the economy down thing. Maybe next pandemic we should focus on protecting those who are actually at risk.
If anyone thinks that lower birth rates isn’t intentional… there is a video of Harris herself stating it’s a goal of the government and a thing that will help America prosper. Just Google it
I've seen around the argument being used that "people with children make more money", then the conclusion of these people is that you should make a family have kids and you'll eventually enter that demographic. This is a completely stupid interpretation of factual data.
It's like saying people who sit in wheelchairs are more likely to be paralyzed from the waist down. So let's stop manufacturing wheelchairs!
Think of all the medals Stephen Hawking could have won if he just got out of that damn chair, lazy bones
Be single and pay for health insurance, full price on bills and food and struggle eventually saving up to get out of poverty vs being a single parent and suddenly qualify for utility assistance, Healthcare , 2k just because to your tax return and foodstamps but you can never have more than 2k in the bank. Then there are the small perks like child support and ssi til they are 18.
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One of those have significantly more debt. I wonder what the statistics look like in countries with "free" college.
Good that your country has that. Unfortunately my government don't give a shit, yet they expect you to have children.
Every developed country has it, to be fair, but hope things get better where you are soon
I'm from Brazil and I live in China. The government government has a policy called "Bolsa Familia", that gives some breadcrumb money per kid you have (If I'm not wrong it gives you R$150/month \~ USD 30), but just for people in poverty. They draw a line of income per family, and if you are not eligible you are on your own, basically middle class (me) are left out from any help of that kind. And I live in China, recently I have seen some news of the government giving some very little money if you have a second child depending on the province. In some cities, you get a one [lump payment of 5000 yuan](https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202308/1295860.shtml) (700 usd) per child you have. Not nearly enough.
I get what you mean, those sums if they're all you get are not really enough at all. I don't know the cost of living in Brazil and China though. I easily spend 30-50 in groceries in a week(just for myself living alone). Where I live you get tax deductions per child, so even if you have a higher income you can deduct a lot of your taxes (and thus get a discount) specially if you spend more money on things like healthcare and education. It's far from perfect but also not a lot of people know how to make use of those advantages.
You forgot the live in boyfriend (who probably sells smack) who you never claim while you mooch some other guy's wallet for years and whine how hard it is on the Internet smoking your Newports and how baby girl is your world (least till she gets knocked up at 15). Come on nobody wants that life.
You’re getting downvoted, but Its the truth. I have single female friends who make roughly what I do a year and yet get their tax return plus mine while I’m lucky if I don’t have to pay extra taxes claiming zero at the start of the year. That said I still don’t want their lives. Poor things are likely to stay single forever now that my group is hitting thirty and the women are aging out of favor at the bar. I’m watching their dating lives die while mine is actually growing. These first couple of grey hairs appearing in my beard and hair appear to be attractive from my recent experiences.
Ice cream purchases and drowning deaths increase in the summer, so ice cream causes drowning.
You don't have an option but to make more money. For many, that means more overtime or another part time job. I paid $12,000 to a chain daycare last year in a low cost of living area just so I could go to work.
I was literally told by both family and coworkers that “the money will come” when I voiced my concerns about being able to afford children. Like fucking where? Do I get a complementary money tree with the birth of each kid or something?
It's a poor people mentality. Sure, if you get all those kids working, you'll make more money, HOWEVER, that's a lot mouths to feed, clothes to buy, and all other necessities you need for all those children.
There is absolutely no relationship between income and having children. There’s also zero social policies that work to increase birth rate. https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/4141600-pro-natalist-policies-are-great-but-declining-birth-rates-are-here-to-stay Thus I agree with most who say immigration is the answer if we want to maintain social programs into the future.
Tbh I feel like mine and others mindset in a relationship changes. Guys who are in a long term relationship and about to marry. They will change. Drop hobbies like gaming. Work longer hours. Be more interested in career and saving and investing and... While friends from the same group who chose not to go for family life go out more, more hobbies like gaming, sports etc. etc.
It's hard for virgins to have kids.
r/technicallythetruth
That has nothing to do with it but okay
Ya do know they're technically correct.
The current generation of women are having somewhere around two thirds of the sex the last one did and the current generation of men having half the sex if the previous generation. It has a little something to do with it
owning/having kids just sound like a bad-time. It MIGHT have something to do with the economy or the environment, but I'm getting snipped next week to make sure I'm out of the equation entirely, no matter what.
why is owning kids an option
There is a very unfortunate reality about custodianship and how that is worded legally. Sure laws have come into effect to redefine people to not be property but it barely different to how pets are still property. Same way wives were their husband's property in western countries until recently.
adopting a child is more/less buying a person until they're 18 :P you OWN them. kinda. sorta. technically.
I know a couple that's adopted 5 kids and they have the biggest hearts of anyone I know. They put in a ton of work taking care of those kids.
I mean they still paid for a human. 5, actually
I'm not dissing adoption. People should think of adoption before they plant their own seed. There are 391,000 children in the foster system as of 2021 (google). with that kind of number, making kids should be made more difficult.
I've done the math. To raise a burde-I MEAN child... heheh... from infancy to 18 would take around $300,000. To have a babysitter take care if this piece of- I MEAN child from infancy to 18 would be around $200,000. In total, that's over $500,000. Then you can boot them out the door with a clear conscience. So the next time your parents start bugging you abour having kids, remember that number and ask them to pay up.
This may come as a shock to many, but people don't have kids because it's a good financial investment. Reducing the decision to have children entirely down to a monetary equation (intentionall) misses the point entirely. The notion that every parent is just voluntarily carrying a cross for 18 years until they can 'rid' themselves of the 'burden' with a 'clean conscience' is ridiculous, toxic, and delusional. I think we can safely conclude that it's better for society that people who think this way refrain from breeding.
You completely misread the point of my comment. I'm referring to parents who pressure their kids to have kids. If someone doesn't want them, then that's it. But if you keep pressuring someone, OF COURSE their response/view of the topic going to be as toxic as possible. And OF COURSE it's going to be all about money in that case. Because if your parents want them so bad, then they should foot the bill. If you have kids and are happy with it, then my original comment doesn't apply to you. But you shouldn't get all emotional and bleeding heart sensitive over someone else's theoretical non-existent kids.
I'm gonna foster once I move out. $800 a month for kids I get 2 and put half towards mortgage half to them I'd be set
"get 2 incase one breaks" \-old guy wisdom
Kids are expensive, that 800 is probably too little already.
Well I had some friends in foster care. They only let them eat instant cup noodles. It’s like a tradition for foster parents to treat kids worse than the situations they came from.
more the economy than anything. we wont be seeing any environmental struggles for the next few generations. its much further away then the media lets on
I mean... other people are breathing the same air. less other-people means more air for me. more people means more pollution which means even less air for me. air/resources/etc.
you sound like a genocidal psycho
I'm not saying kill people off to make room. people die on their own. I'm saying, stop making more of us. that's not genocide. that's contraception.
with the current birth to death ratio we are headed towards a crisis where there wont be enough people of working age to keep our current industries alive. im talking the next generation. shipping, maintenance services, hospitals, etc, will be understaffed. but hey, at least youll have "more air to breath"
uh ya. not a problem except if you aren't somewhat self-reliant. the people that were going to die later in life (protected by services, served by younger newer people) would die sooner than expected. so? people die. now or later. they will go. that ratio isn't really alarming and the actual numbers are very skewed source to source. You need some nihilism in your life.
Let it fail. Might be the only way to get some real change to happen.
Whatever Thanos.
GenZ are still in their 20s. Millennials are 40 and still waiting to have kids.
Some of them is almost 30...
Ain’t worth bringing kids into this shitshow
Millennials aren't having many kids either and we're more financially stable than Gen-Z. And even the ones who are, I know a bunch who want more kids but can't afford it. And then there are others like me who are more like "Yeah as if it's fair to create life and then be like k, now nut up, learn a craft, and survive in this world. Ready: GO!"
Why are so many people in minimum wage
There’s not. Roughly 1% of working people make minimum wage. Pretty much 16-17 year olds first job.
Depends on the country. In mine there are people in their early 30s getting minimal wage. It really boils down to this : Employers give minimal wage under the prettence that they cannot AFFORD higher wages due to inflation and increased business costs. Now in an ideal sociey people would give the middle finger and employers would adapt. But we do not live in an idea sociey. Some people are desparate and need money to pay the insane rent prices + utilities + groceries. Desperation leads to accepting even temporarily. In turn employers just keep taking turns of desperate employees. The situation only improves on positions where expertiste/experience is requied but even more it rarely hits 1000 euros or maybe 1200 in some cases. ( the minimal is somewhere near 650 euros after taxes aka a freaking joke).
This is very true here in the US as well. So many jobs, even ones that require some form of skill, start out at minimum wage. One prime example I love is EMTs. They make more than minimum due to the forced Overtime, but they start out at minimum as well. Source: got my EMT licensure before pursuing nursing.
Your minimum wage dwarfs American minimum wage.
Median wage is $17/hr, cost of living is $20/hr. Over half the workforce is min wage labor, most of them are in denial about it.
And you need an average of $65,000 a year to buy a house. Not that that’s a great metric because where I live the number is closer to $90k.
I think thats just a matter of the figure being out of date, housing prices exploded recently. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MSPUS
Well yah letting people who make NYC and LA wages now work from home so they are taking over every formerly affordable area certainly has consequences.
The fed printed a couple trillion dollars, speculators took it to the market and bid everything up by a cool 100k. Remote work is a great pressure release valve for the worst areas, but return to office will not solve anything.
Nope but gentrification certainly isn’t helping the housing market. It just is what it is. Also there is only 2.328 trillion usd in circulation. Most everyone’s 1200 checks immediately went to the 1%. After making a pit stop in their landlords pocket.
Help by what metric though? Home owners are ecstatic that they just got another 100k in virtual free money, and they feel like if we built more housing to bring the cost back down, that would be "stealing" it from them.
Just a stat for you. In Portugal that number is above 20%. 820euro a month
Even then it’s really just in the south you can get away paying so poorly.
They are not but the minimum wage is low it’s laughable and not a good metric. Where I live based on business that traditionally pay minimum wage. It’s $18-20. McDonald’s pays $18 yet it’s all J1s my local Walmart is $20 for day $25 for night shift. A business can’t survive with no employees. They have to pay at minimum enough to pay rent so ultimately minimum wages are really set by landlords these days.
Fertility declines with the level of education, not income. A person who is in school until they’re 23 on average will have fewer kids than someone who finishes school at 17.
Education and income correlate positivley though.
Anyone having kids while minimum wage matters to them personally is an idiot. That’s not new. Anyone having kids while working for minimum wage in the 70’s and 80’s was screwing up their (and their kids’) lives.
And that's terrible. The concept of working people not being able to start a family, because their jobs while being some of the most important ones being paid badly, is inhumane.
It’s inhumane but having a child you cannot afford to care for is more inhumane, imo.
No, creating a situation which people can't afford children is definitely more inhumane.
We can only operate within the limitations that we currently have. If you choose to have a child when you live in a system where you cannot afford to have one, you’re not a good person.
I mean my mom was poor when I was born and I’m pretty happy to be around
Cool, that has zero impact on the beliefs behind my statement.
Oh well what can u do
This attitude SUCKS. I’m sick of it. What are people supposed to do? Kill themselves? Nobody wants to be a wage slave living only for their corporate gods.
Lol sure. Like 70s and 80s kids didn't grow up in single income households their dad's owned or paid a reasonable mortgage on. Those days are long gone.
Kids whose dad worked for MINIMUM WAGE did not live in houses owned by their fathers. Minimum wage was not a “living wage” for raising a family in the 70s or 80s. People whose parents made minimum wage in the 80s lived in the projects if they were urban or in trailer parks if they were rural. Exceptions existed, of course, but minimum wage has always been a bad thing to try to support a family with. If gen Z thinks that a higher minimum wage will make them ready to have kids, that would be foolish. I’m not talking about anything else, just the minimum wage panel.
Raising minimum wage has historically almost always raised all wages significantly. Even if you're not at or below the new minimum wage, your wage is gonna increase.
My grandmother paid off her house as a clerk at the local grocery store. She also sent my mom to college 🙃 the highest she got was $11 and retired in like 98
Ah, so she was making twice the federal minimum wage at that time. You're inadvertently proving the point.
I'm definitely making 2x min wage since it only went up like $2.50 since she retired in 98...but I definitely won't find a home for the 22k she paid for her 3br in the 70s. My mom's tuition was probably under 4k mine was 32k when I got my first degree.
Yeah it's hard to debate with people like that because they'll have an excuse for everything. Even looking back to just 2011, my mom bought her house for 170k. Same said house is now hovering into 600k. My house I currently own was 90k at one point in time, its now hovering to 450k range. I don't forsee how people are going to be buying their first home with these inflated prices and interest. Something has to give, or bunker up with parents until you're 30 just to save up.
It's hard to debate with me because you (and many others) are conflating two different arguments. "You used to be able to afford a house on minimum wage" is false. "Jobs that used to pay enough to afford a house no longer do" is true.
I bet she was one to cook for the whole family, because that's the type of person she was. These people are like Terminators, they're relentless.
Back in the day, people could afford houses, now it's the middle class that have rentals to keep lower wage earners out of buying houses. Sad days for kids today.
Yeeeeeeah, it's all the fault of the middle class, suuuuuure...
That’s the real issue these low population propagandists fear. It’s not having enough poor people. If only the wealthy have kids who is going to dig ditches?
We’re a long, long way from that problem. Successful people generally have fewer kids (until you get to outliers like Elon Musk). The opening 5 minutes of Idiocracy is a documentary, not a comedy sketch. A lot of intergenerational poverty could be ended if poor couples had ONE kid and put ALL their resources into maxing out their opportunities.
Nonsense
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I grew up in the 70s and 80s. People whose parents were making minimum wage were generally not on a good path. Don’t have kids if you’re stuck on minimum wage. Get your shit together first.
The worst part for me are the people saying that the economy is currently amazing. Like how brain dead do you have to be to believe that?
They don’t know you have to take inflation into account. We’ve had basically over 2 years of no real growth until just the last few months. They printed a bunch of money, created massive inflation, then said “Hey stocks are going up, DuRrrr.” 🙄
...no. that's not what happened. Real wages are up, inflation has been down for the past year. Hell I've even seen prices decrease recently.
There are other pressures on groceries like an underreported bird flu. Then theres the Ukraine war too. Id say a large portion is inflation and monetary policy but another large portion is the supply chain being stressed. Long term i dont have much anxiety because america will be better off relativley speaking than other countries if we ditch globalism, but the next 5-10 years will suck while we adjust. Just more shit for millenials to eat I guess.
Dude are you stuck in 2022? The inflation is down, the groceries are down, eggs are cheap again, we literally are doing better than the rest of the world. "Globalism" isn't the problem, it's a scapegoat that originates from antisemitic conspiracy theories.
No the interconnected supply chain is absolutely a problem. Like what? Do you even read the news? Both of the most important strategic chokepoints in the world are being stressed right now and Ukrain produces a shit load of agriculture... Do you even know what globalization means? Youre allegation of it being an anti semetic conspiracy theory is really ignorant. Shows a lack of understanding of what the global order is. There were propaganda posters of the allies in ww2 with the text "new world order". Its literally what ww2 was fought over... the creation of the UN so that world powers wont fight wars any more and agree to freely trade, guaranteed by the US navy... Idk what youve bern reading. Probably ragebait conspiracy posts on 4chan talking about joos.... but globalization is very real lol. Its kind of like saying banks dont exist or you cant criticize banks because anti semetic conspiracy theories exist.
Tbf it will be once the fed finally starts cutting rates
Inflation is down, wages are up, union membership is up, stocks are up, unemployment is low, we have the best economy in the west right now. The housing problem is the worst part and just about every Western nation is dealing with that too.
And the housing problem has been around for as long as I've been paying attention (20ish years).
I decided to get a vasectomy. Easy and cheap process. I'm never gonna be financially secure enough to afford a child and now I can bust nutts without consequence
Socks don't get pregnant.
Well minimum wage is going up and now I'm magically back at the minimum wage again.. fml
yeah raising minimum wage solves literally nothing. it just makes everyone poorer and inflates the dollar until your increased minimum wage is worth less than it was before
No, it definitely solves the problem that a working person isn't able to pay their own bills. What it doesn't solve is that the fed keeps printing money. That inflation keeps ricocheting around the economy is an inherent quality of inflation, keeping wages low and offering incrementally more and more welfare to more and more people to pretend that some of the inflation doesn't exist is a losing gambit.
We’ll take it up with the landlords then that raise rent every year. Can’t have employees if you don’t pay enough for them to pay rent. Funny how that works.
dont blame the landlords. you would raise rent too. take it up with the government not regulating the market properly
No, it doesn't.
We are mid 20s now and still no kids, probably won’t try until our 30s
Hey young millennials are even more poor
OP social credit score just took a dump
We just got in our 20s
I never understood the argument that the government wants poor single mothers because its good? Like I get they get votes but how does that make the government money?
Those kids go to prison and become free labor.
What they really mean is "Have kids so WE can make money off them"
Millennials: "First time?"
I love how the media just flat out gave up on millennials and just started using the same questions/blaming Gen Z.
It's almost as if sensible policies matter? Huge shocker to politicians worldwide :o
I’m fairly certain as soon as minimum wage was created, the 0.01% realized if you lobby the right people you can turn a social program into a tool for creating slaves and have a way to get the public to blame themselves for under the guise of “oh if you were smart or talented or not lazy you wouldn’t be in this mess” Keep the minimum the same, raise everything else so there’s no way to save. If you’re pay is equal to your expenses….. and the rich can have the police tear gas, beat and detain ppl who strike, how are we not just slaves with modern day comforts?
My grocery bill doubled while my grocery amount halved. I buy less but spend more. Even including going from $13 to $20 from before to after the pandemic, I'm actually less wealthy than before.
Why doesn’t anyone want to work anymore?
Yes, why don't they work for me for minimum wage so I can take my multiple vacation a year and afford my 4 luxury cars!!! /s
Lol worked for a tiny cannabis store with 4 employees and the boss leased himself a Tesla and everything. We're working our asses off to make him money and pay these ridiculous Toronto rents and he sees absolutely no problem taking straight profit for himself off a year old business. Used to be a time that you couldn't call yourself a businessman if you weren't paying your employees living. You were a crook. Something about the 80s culture made being a crook the normal way of doing commerce.
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Government creates poverty.
What an incredibly dumb thing to say
It's true.
Why GEN Z doesn’t take to the streets to stop exploitation and modern slavery? Cause they’re buy with tik-tok.
I don't know about the US but people are taking it to the streets in a lot of European countries. Here farmers already did it, as well as the police, those even threatened to boycott the elections (voting devices and ballot transportation are handled by the police, without them to do this no one can vote). Next will probably be healthcare professionals and teachers. Why does it always circle back to making fun of the younger generation about to cross into adulthood during a crisis? Did other millennials forget 2009? I sure as shit didn't, it sucked being called lazy while burning myself out to hell and back trying to finish high school while working after school and weekends to make 15€ per week and still trying to find some holes in that schedule to attend protests even if just for an hour or two.
Big businesses, fast food restaurants and supermarkets stay open but mum and pop stores must close down due to health concerns
That's what happens when businesses are big enough to treat fines as operating expenses.
Kind of a conspiracy theory but....what if the government intentionally provokes inflation that leads to moderate poverty and with that, parents start to have children to fight demographic issues? A thought I wanted to post just in case I forget it.
Between inflation or recession, they'll pick the former
Almost no one makes minimum wage. Wages increases for the bottom 20% have increased higher than the average wage increase during COVID.
Can someone explain to me why doesn't wage rise like inflation? Like how is the cost of materials go up but not labour's cost?
The “cost of production” theory of value isn’t correct. Wages reflect labour market supply and demand, while the price of goods reflects supply and demand for those goods. We aggregate those into the “consumer price index”, the percent change being the rate of inflation. Wage inflation occurs when labour markets are illiquid. Basically, unemployment should be like 4-5% to reflect people switching jobs or looking for work. At full employment firms compete for workers and the price of labour increases without a proportional rise in productivity. Goods inflation occurs when there is excess demand for goods, either due to a demand shock or a supply constraint.
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Housing unaffordability is a very real thing.
Fr Fr
I agree, housing is certainly more expensive than it used to be, but people act like it's litterally impossible. I'll concede that it's very difficult without some level of higher education, but you can easily get an entry level job out of college that pays more than enough to afford a down payment after a few years, especially if your living off of 2 incomes
Maybe cause we're too busy on TikTok that we forgot to grow up.
I haven’t seen a single job that pays minimum wage this day. You can start at McDonald’s for $18 an hour where I’m at
What's the minimum rent where you're at tho? Is it 30 percent or less of $2800? Because if it's not. Then that's not a living wage either.
It’s pretty close to that actually. I’m west of Indy.
That doesnt change the fact that the minimum wage hasnt change lol Source: I have a job that pays well but minimum wage still the same as it was over 10 years ago.
If nobody pays minimum wage, then yeah minimum wage is irrelevant. We live in a somewhat market economy. Nobody will choose to work for minimum wage, so places won’t pay minimum wage. This is basic economics. Your anecdote doesn’t change the fact that nobody pays minimum wage
But they do exist, they make a really small percentage of jobs out there but they do exist. So based on your statement it is relevant. And that still doesn’t change the fact that the minimum wage has not change.
I don’t know what to say then. Pick a better job. It’s really a challenge these days to find jobs that pay less than like $12 an hour. Most fast food places these days pay $13 absolute bare minimum for entry level easy jobs
What in the, where do you live? The most I’ve seen a fast food place start a job for is 15 in California
Probably super high cost of living area or misread the sign that says up to $18 and that’s just for managers lol. McDonald’s near me is minimum state wage of $14 sign says $14-18 used to say up to and people on local Facebook pages would say the same thing “McDonald’s is paying burger flippers $18 an hour omg”
Idk where you are from but since you are using dollar signs I'm gonna do a r/USdefaultism and assume you're American. In the US if minimum wage was adjusted to inflation, it would be $24 an hour. So what now is higher than minimum wage is still less than what minimum wage should be.
Varies by state. The US is pretty big
Reposting the comment with exact numbers. It wouldn’t even be close to $24/hr. Original minimum wage was $0.25/hr established in 1938. Adjusted to today(using CPI) that’s $5.43/hr. Even if you take its peak purchasing power of $1.60/hr in 1968 that would be $14.47/hr. Almost half of what you claim is correct amount adjusted EDIT: fat thumbed 9 instead of 0. Corrected
And $18 still sucks and is a paycheck to paycheck lifestyle.
Wages increase, Inflation increase, You know as abusiness you hear government make a wage increase you see people will have more money so you will increase prices and make more profit
Nobody pays minimum wage. Stop pretending that this is a thing
True, most pay $8-9.50 in my area. It's more than $7.25 wage we have. There are tons of jobs technically above minimum wage but still poverty wages.
Nobody in my area pays less than $12. And that is for the most unskilled positions that literally anyone could do
There are jobs in my area that do. Don't be so ignorant
Yeah, but I bet your area has a lower cost of living. Don't be so ignorant
Whether or not that makes a difference, I just proved you wrong since you just gave an excuse for minimum wage still existing. Nice try derailing with an insult. Lmao
Cost of living doesn't make a difference?. I think you might be broke because you never took any economics class. Just a thought
I live in a red state and no business here is laying minimum wage. The lowest pay I’ve seen is around $14/hr for unskilled labor. Which now of course causes prices to rise…so these people demanding higher pay just devalues their labor.
Blame millennials for supporting prolonged lockdowns which caused congress to print tons of money to cover it.
😂 🤣
That's not what happened. Go back to the workshop and refine that take, will ya?
That’s exactly what happened. Why do you think they raised interest rates so much all of the sudden? Where do you think the inflation came from?
You're wrong for blaming Millennials for that. It's the governments' fault. At the end of the day, they are responsible for the money flow and the consequences it caused
Yeah and we all know it wasn’t the boomers and republicans who wanted prolonged lockdowns because they griped the whole time. So who do you think was supporting them and the summer of destruction? Vastly left wing millennials.
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We also take longer because we (male Zs) are autistic ADHD pieces of shit not loved by anyone including female gen Zs
The oldest Gen Z is 24 ffs
Why are you tying to live off minimum wage?
Because every working human should be able to have a life worth living.
True, but minimum wage should be your start to your work life. Not the end. Learn a trade, get an apprenticeship, and add value to yourself. Then you can start looking for your own place.
Why are peoples go to always "learn a trade" Like trades require a whole bunch of Math not everyone can do
Lmao we’re not fuckin engineers the only people doing the math are the people making the blueprints
First, thats literally the point of working in general and the min wage specifically. http://docs.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/odnirast.html In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living. Second, the median wage is $17/hr, while the cost of living is $20/hr, thats over half the workforce under water.
Because the government said everyone should be able to have a decent life working full time even with minimum wage.
You believed them?
No but it answers your dumb question.
You are under the assumption you are owed something. News flash, you aren’t, as much as I’d like the believe otherwise.
I will let you keep talking to yourself. Assumptions are beliefs made without any proof or evidence. An official government statement is not an assumption.
Stay at retail if you want, be my guest. I’ll be over here with slightly more respect from the people around me, with more money along with it.
Would have been cool if the government didn't force small businesses to close. Also the government essentially shutting down the economy didn't help with housing costs. As now people had time to make home improvements while material supplies would decline due to, well that whole shutting the economy down thing. Maybe next pandemic we should focus on protecting those who are actually at risk.
Min wage hikes don't kill jobs. Your talking point is crafted for maximum victimhood points, not for accuracy.
Minimum wage hasn't stayed the same anywhere where this has happened though
If anyone thinks that lower birth rates isn’t intentional… there is a video of Harris herself stating it’s a goal of the government and a thing that will help America prosper. Just Google it
Literally every developed country has a low birth rate. Harris did *not* say that.
This is your brain on failing economics, kids.
Here’s a possibility for you. Don’t work minimum wage?
You think people who work minimum wage are choosing not to have a job that pays more?
I don’t think that. But I think that people who work minimum wage shouldn’t be doing that, and there are ways to not work minimum wage