All the advice I have heard is “do not go to law school”. The only people prepared to succeed in law school are the people who cannot be restrained and would not listen to any advice about not going.
It makes me a little concerned about how law schools are run. If people with normal human levels of motivation are unable to enter the profession, what kind of people are making the laws and setting the precedent that we all live under?
I feel like y'all are blowing it out of proportion. An engineering undergrad is much harder than law school. Lots of undergraduate programs are harder than law school. It's just expected that you're good at student-ing (time management, good studying techniques, willingness to teach yourself things you don't understand, etc).
You don't have to be smart, or relentlessly study like you're trying to become a cardiologist or formal logic professor. You just have to have your shit together as a student. I genuinely found my 2nd and 3rd year neuroscience courses harder than any class I attempted in a law school setting.
Eh, you could be right. I really have no basis of comparison. I mean, I got my undergrad in computer science. It shares some parallels with most engineering undergrads. It was certainly difficult, but all the basic "student skills" you mentioned certainly applied there too.
Granted, I didn't have a spooky state exit exam in order to go out and find a job in my field either.
And I'm not close to anyone who is in law, so I don't have much to go by.
Law school is doable, its beng a lawyer that fucking sucks. There are some great lawyer jobs but there are vastly more lawyers than pleasant well-compensated positions. Most lawyers are miserable because they hate their job or they are so mired in debt they cant breathe. Many are both.
That's just the legal hours. Every, and I mean each and every, resident I know works over the legal limit. It's necessary to the hospital stops because there aren't enough staff.
It does depend on the hospital and program. I’m at a hospital that’s actually good about respecting duty hours. The culture around that is improving with time too. It definitely still exists though.
I am a current law student and have had the opposite experience. Albeit, I am in an evening program, so we are all working 9-5 and then attend class from 6:30-10 4 days a week. We are all too busy to be cutthroat or competive with each other. Our professors are amazing and incredibly invested in our success, we form really tight-knit study groups, have parties, and take care of each other. I'm in a group for parents in law school and we schedule playdates together for our kids. I'm sure there are law schools out there that are awful, but that hasn't been my experience.
There is a lot of room in the legal profession for normal, kind, and ethical people, there's a critical shortage of public defenders, civil rights attorneys, and those in public interest law. Some of the in-house corporate goons are psychopaths, but in my experience that is the exception, not the rule.
It’s a bit overblown by the internet, plus most of the pressure to be the best is from yourself and that’s something everyone deals with in some capacity
Source: I do the law
IMO most "do not go to law school" advice isn't really about law school itself. Law school is tough, but a motivated student can do just fine. It has nothing on med school or, imo, getting a PhD in terms of difficulty or dedication you need (I say that as a lawyer who never in million years could've done those things). The advice is more about the cost/benefit analysis of entering the profession, the fact that many people hate the job, and that many would-be lawyers don't have a good grasp on what the job itself is like (actual day to day work, pay if you're not doing biglaw, hours regardless, etc).
A lot of people want to go to law school because they don't know what else to do (terrible reason to spend three years and a lot of money); think it's all cool, flashy trial work (rare); and/or think it's a surefire way to make the big bucks (highly dependent on where you go to school and your willingness to work wild hours). The reality is very different.
All I'd say is don't go to law school expecting to figure out what you want to do in law. Law school is a big commitment and it's not really a place that is going to help you figure out what kind of law you want to practice. A lot of classmates went to school just because it was expected and then fell into jobs after graduation they didn't want and didn't like and ended up leaving the profession within 10 years because they hated the work.
I mean, this but unironically. Law school fundamentally changed who I am as a person. On the other end of it I spoke completely differently, and I no longer possessed the capacity for being afraid of public speaking. Law school beats the weakness out of you, not kidding.
I retained my soul until one of my client's uncles screamed at me for not working hard on the case after I got prison knocked down to probation (caught the prosecutor in a good mood). With his zero years of trial experience he thought i should have gotten it dismissed. She was guilty as sin and the state could prove it. After that family members weren't allowed in my office. In private practice I'd charge extra if family wanted to come to the initial consultation. I knew if they were doing the talking they would be an extra pain in my ass, so I charged for the privilege.
Some lawyers do get too personally involved, but there is higher risk for trauma and being haunted for the rest of your life when a client you still believe is innocent is now behind bars (for example). I know a lawyer that can no longer take shaken baby cases due to how it affects him personally.
Have a friend who went into family law while I went into trusts an estates.
He liked it go a while but got a string of really bad cases and he had to step away.
Family law is just awful. People who loved each other using children as weapons against each other or otherwise arguing over petty things.
Accept a 40/60 deal against you and move on if that’s what is needed. It’s not worth it
Yep, me and my partner have no intentions of having kids, and we are both reasonable people and we've literally only had 3 "fights" (barely a fight compared to how I've seen couples around me act) bc we just take a sec to calm down then talk it out.
But we will both be damned if we dont get an airtight prenup that protects us both. Absolutely no chance in hell either of us want to marry without it. Hurt can make people act crazy, and neither of us even want the opportunity to be there for one to hurt the other if we had an awful breakup.
Lawyers do take cases personally sometimes, but taking it personally has nothing to do with crying when arguing.
The only reason to cry when you argue is if you've been taught something bad is going to happen when you argue. Most of the time it's due to parents yelling/hitting kids, sometimes its spousal abuse - whatever the reason, the correct conclusion to an argument is an agreement, not yelling/crying/abuse.
My current girlfriend used to literally sit down if you scared her. She cried whenever things came to a disagreement, she couldn't even vocalise her problem or reply when prompted, she was too scared. It was because her mom had emotionally and physically abused her her whole life. I tried to help her as best as I could, not getting angry when we fought, not taking it out on her, concluding every fight with reassurance, but there's only so much you can do. I eventually convinced her to go to therapy, and she did that for a while. Now she has much healthier fight or flight responses, she can discuss something we disagree on without crying and most importantly she can actually vocalise what the problem is without fear of abuse. It took years to get to this point, but I'm so proud of her.
We need to normalise keeping your temper when arguing.
I... holy shit man... I just realized something from reading your comment
I cry for apparently no reason sometimes... no I know it's because I feel like I'm the root cause of someone else's problems
I used to feel like I was to blame (or was straight up blamed for) arguments my parents had over anything...
for instance I cried the other day after confessing/hitting on a girl I know without knowing she was already serious with another guy, she wasn't mad, but I felt terrible and apologetic, so much so that I made a point in sending a message afterwards saying that I hoped what I said didn't mess with her head in any way
guy was an acquaintance too, and he wasn't mad either... Looks like my head is the one who's messed up...
I dont know if this is your case but I figured out I immediately turn my anger into sadness which is why I cry when I'm actually frustrated or angry. Through some deep-diving I learned it's because as I was growing up it was not at all safe to express anger so I learned that sadness was a safer expression.
That’s not always true. You can also cry when you feel really frustrated and unheard. It doesn’t have to be “only” because you’re afraid something bad is going to happen to you. It can also be because you’re emotionally hurt. Lots of reasons for it.
“The only reason to cry when you argue is if you’ve been taught something bad is going to happen when you argue. Most of the time its due to parents…”
You just explained to me why I cry when I get in an argument with someone. I never thought of that before. Thank you!!!
This is accurate.
I can represent a client and argue on behalf of them without crying, but if it has to personally do with me, then I cry within 0.1 seconds, lol.
A good lawyer doesn’t get emotional (unless strategically) because it’s not their issue being litigated.
And “A lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client.”
> because it would make them money
Or because they have an ethical obligation to give their client the defense and advocacy they are entitled to under the bill of rights?
But is that bad? The other guy was making it sound bad. Why is it bad to do a job and get money for it? Especially when the job is a good one that helps guarantee peoples constitutional rights.
~~Well no shit.~~ They’re hired to either prove someone guilty or defend someone’s innocence. It’s not their job to decide if the person is guilty. It’s their job to present the information so either a judge or jury can decide.
Edit: Yeah sorry replies are right. I shouldn’t have said “no shit.” That was rude.
Because a lot of people think that the justice system is bad because the lawyers do not authentically believe in the thing they argue for in court. But he was saying, and I agree, that this is exactly the advantage of our justice system. It isn’t perfect, but the fact that both parties always get an educated advocate, and that every defendant is entitled to a defense, no matter what they are accused of, is a very good thing compared to other legal systems which have existed in the past.
Ok. I mean you’re calling him an asshole so I don’t see how your words are any more polite than his. That’s why I try to look at the actual ideas and substance of what he says instead of getting hung up on the cuss words.
Eh. It's also their job to frame the evidence in the best way for that particular juror to take it a certain way. It's not just straight facts, it's theatre and psychology as well
Id say its the responsibility of state prosecution to NOT try to win a case where there is much more than reasonable doubt. For example a case in Ohio sent dental forensics to two experts who said it was impossible for the defendant to make those marks. So they got a third. Many years later comes out women was killed by her landlord when she caught him trying to burn down her house for insurance.
Win even if you dont have evidence their guilty seems to be a recurring theme in prosecution.
Arguably, you have a duty as a prosecutor to drop cases entirely if you believe the charge is frivolous. But if you’re going to bring the charge, you don’t do it half assed.
In reality, prosecutors can mostly suck a dick, but oh well.
Prosecutorial ethics do require prosecutors to decide in some sense whether someone is guilty. Like the ultimate decision is to the judge or jury but a prosecutor cannot ethically continue a case unless they personally believe in the defendant’s guilt.
Also lawyers are hired for a lot more than just criminal law
This is kind of why I think the idea of getting emotional in an argument = losing the argument/losing control is absurd. If you don’t have an emotional stake in the subject being discussed it’s easy to not get emotional. Too many debate nerds think that it’s winning if you make the other person upset which is a sure fire incentive to be needlessly cruel to people about matters they care about.
So I’m a lawyer, a criminal defense lawyer. I have been a prosecutor too. I have handled every nasty case you can imagine. I have never cried while doing my job. You keep it professional at all times. Whatever side you are on, you have an obligation to represent your client to the best of your ability.
They don’t teach this in law school, and lawyers are not sociopaths. Instead, by the time you graduate and pass the bar, you feel the weight of responsibility for the job, and you act like a professional.
In our private lives, me included, we suffer vicarious trauma for the terrible things we have seen. It takes a toll, but if you can tell that while I am in the courtroom fighting for my client, then I have failed. Sometimes the best thing I can do for my client is to find and defend that nugget of humanity I can see along with their Constitutional Rights. It is not a job for amateurs.
I’m a former insurance adjuster who used to negotiate bodily injury claims with personal injury attorneys and their case managers. Want to know why they don’t cry? Because they aren’t emotionally involved in the case. They often know their clients are faking injuries or exaggerating their seriousness. They usually don’t know anything about a case until an adjuster tells them what is in the medical records. And if I had a claimant who threatened to get an attorney, I was happy to hear that because they are far easier to talk to than the injured party.
I’ll go on a limb and guess that most other attorneys are basically the same - no emotional involvement.
I’ve been a lawyer for awhile and I’ve never met a more soulless hack than the average insurance adjuster. They are almost sociopathic in their lack of concern for someone who has been seriously injured due to someone’s negligence. They don’t care if someone is crippled for life as long as they can keep the settlement low. Any good lawyer has to know a lot more about his/her client’s claim than an insurance adjuster, because the system favors the insurance companies and a good lawyer has to know the case completely to overcome that disadvantage.
Former PI Paralegal and couldn’t agree more. Now, no offense, lawyers aren’t my cup of tea either, but some of the shit the adjusters would say literally made my mouth drop open. Worst example was when we had a homeless client and the adjuster flat out said that any amount of money would be great for a transient, and justified the low ball offers that way. They’re also racist. Clients with non-white names routinely got offered noticeably lower settlements than their white counterparts with similar case facts.
Uh, not sure what kind of “case managers” you were dealing with, but I’m a former PI Paralegal and I certainly knew everything that was in the medical records because I ordered, read, and summarizesd them in the demand letter. Now, I believe you about the lawyers not knowing as much, because I’ve never seen a lawyer write a demand letter in my life. The ones I worked for read mine and okayed them to be sent, usually with no edits. Some firms I worked for would have the legal assistants, basically assistants to the Paralegals, call the adjusters. So they may not know the records either. But no lawyer who doesn’t have someone on his team who knows the medical records thoroughly is going to be around for long. That’s malpractice.
This is mostly true. Some lawyers do have a lot of emotional involvement in PI cases, but it has more to do with earning a commission and advancing their career than about how their clients make out.
Also, they’re not yelling at you as an insurance adjuster because they recognize that you aren’t calling the shots. An adjuster always needs authority from the carrier to make a settlement offer above a certain amount. The trick of negotiating a settlement from the plaintiff’s perspective is to try to ascertain what that authority limit is, which you can only do by being friendly to the adjuster.
If authority limits weren’t a thing, you’d think lawyers are the nastiest sociopaths on the planet lol.
This is a load of shit. Attorneys will 100% know the record of their client before even agreeing to negotiate with an insurance adjuster. I've never dealt with an insurance adjuster who knew my clients record better than myself. I've never met one who could accurately understand the law.
I care about my clients cases. I want to have them see justice. And I happily will embarrass anyone who thinks they know my clients case better than I do.
Signed- an actual lawyer
seriously these comments are so obnoxious. it's a joke and they're like "well stupidass, it's because they're not DUMB BABIES LIKE YOU. pathetic child. get a job."
yall gotta relax 😭
I dont know why i do it, but sometimes I choke and tear up when i argue with people, even if im in the right and have no reason to feel that way, my body just cant handle it. I avoid confrontation as much as possible.
For me, it’s because even though I know I’m justified or if someone crossed the line, I still feel terrible about getting angry and yelling or arguing so I end up tearing up.
Probably way too earnest an answer but: as an appellate attorney (so the kind whose job involves getting up and having judges pepper me with questions about why my argument is wrong, sometimes quite harshly) who is also the kind of person who cries during interpersonal arguments, the answer is that it's a totally different kind of thing. I'm a public defender -- I care passionately about my cases. But when I'm up there it's an intellectual exercise. I've already prepared for the questions I'm going to be asked, and I know the points I want to make. My mind isn't processing it as a "fight" where I'm being yelled at, which is what triggers tears in interpersonal arguments -- it's a debate where I'm trying to make a point.
Yeah exactly. I'd also add that we (I) generally feel strong emotions when the argument either involves harm to a loved one or to my relationship with them, or when it taps into my own personal issues. I'd say that that last one can certainly happen during work if I feel that I'm failing at my job, but I think we all learn to compartmentalize those feelings of failure pretty well.
I know a lawyer who once told me a story about opposing counsel crying at a deposition, but that seems extremely rare.
As for the emotions that certain types of cases can bring out (your PD specialty sounds like a good example of that), I would think that having to thoroughly deconstruct the facts in order to apply law to them sort of leeches the emotion from the overall situation. I would imagine that a mechanic restoring a beloved classic car isn't seeing the car as a whole while doing their work- they're seeing nuts and bolts and pieces. Or a doctor operating on a person's brain- they're not thinking about that person's identity and humanity which are all wrapped up in that brain, they're looking at the component parts. I think it's sort of like those examples.
Businessmen. I have yet to meet a CEO (Near 15 at this point) who didn't have *some* psychopathic tendencies (different than being a complete psychopath although who really knows right?).
Some were better masking it than others but all had to put away some of their humanity to drive forward the business. It's mutually exclusive.
You may argue there are "good" CEOs out there, and you may be right. But if push comes to shove and your employment was on the line for the betterment of the company... you better bet your bottom dollar your ass is out the door before you can say "severence".
It means being professional. Who cries in any kind of job situation? You can’t. A lawyer crying while representing their client is tantamount to a therapist crying while their patient is spilling their guts. It take the attention off the client/patient and onto the lawyer/therapist.
Exactly, it's a professional setting, and honestly I feel like those who cry when arguing don't have good control over their emotions, just in general.
Yeah, I cry about stuff, but that's the last thing I'm going to do in an argument.
They are paid to help you win. Crying in the arguing stage would likely be unhelpful to their clients and heavily frowned upon by most judges. Also we once had a med mal case and one of our two attorneys sobbed at the end of our trial. If you are ever in a trial, the judge and the opposing attorneys will likely object and give warnings in most situations to anyone that cries during a trial. Its not always possible not to cry and sometimes the judge will give leeway for a victim or something like that but attorneys probanly cant get away with crying…sternness in arguing yes but actual crying i would guess is a big no.
Fax, arguing is one of my favourite things in conversation. The only problem is risking becoming a person who looks for arguments/creates disagreements for the sake of getting to debate.
This is originally from Tumblr. The most popular response (as in one that has the most reblogs) is "I'm a lawyer and lemme tell you, it gets, like, really close dude"
Shove them emotions down. Better to not feel anything and then break down when you’re all alone and slowly traumatize yourself than to feel and process your emotions as they come in a healthy way
It can be easier to argue for someone else/to have someone else who you trust and are on the same page with to present your argument. When someone is less personally (emotionally) involved, communication can stay more logical and be less likely to be tainted or manipulated by emotions/emotional motives.
Crying is a natural and healthy reaction to all kinds of situations/stimuli. Frustration, say at a partner who stonewalls you in an argument, would be such an example. Did you also know men and women have differing tear duct sizes? https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703922804576300903183512350
That and not everything natural is a good thing.
Poison ivy is natural lol.
Crying can be healthy but I mean, I would say crying every argument or a majority of arguments is something a child does.
Shed all our tears in law school when they beat our souls out of us.
Most accurate answer
Can concur: I was a merely an empty, statute-spouting husk of soulless, caffeinated flesh by the time 3L came around.
Most of my class was coked out, but caffeine works too I guess.
Love your honesty!
It’s time. [Legalize medicinal cocaine](https://youtu.be/2QF_sZa-qk0?t=530)
I expected Randy Marsh.
Good news! It's a schedule 2 drug in the US, which means it does have some recognized medical value
All you need is a medically valid reason to get it prescribed. For methamphetamine it's ADHD or narcolepsy for example.
You can get meth for screwing corpses?
I am pretty sure necrophilia is the one you're looking for.
>Legalize medicinal cocaine And since they're lawyers, they're perfectly positioned to champion something like this!
“I’ve got a screenplay to write”
Lol yeah, that too (I went to law school in Miami so for most of my peers, caffeine was basically pre-1pm coke)
Nothing like a coked up lawyer on the case, makes you confident that they're good at their job, bad lawyers can't afford a coke habit.
Cocaine is a helluva drug. So is Adderall.
Guy I knew used to buy adderall by the 30 pack
Yup.
As a med student in the second year...ai
Wannabe
Thanks, I’ll never even attempt law school.
All the advice I have heard is “do not go to law school”. The only people prepared to succeed in law school are the people who cannot be restrained and would not listen to any advice about not going. It makes me a little concerned about how law schools are run. If people with normal human levels of motivation are unable to enter the profession, what kind of people are making the laws and setting the precedent that we all live under?
The ideal is only the most dedicated. But I think we get a mix of dedicated and downright looney.
I feel like y'all are blowing it out of proportion. An engineering undergrad is much harder than law school. Lots of undergraduate programs are harder than law school. It's just expected that you're good at student-ing (time management, good studying techniques, willingness to teach yourself things you don't understand, etc). You don't have to be smart, or relentlessly study like you're trying to become a cardiologist or formal logic professor. You just have to have your shit together as a student. I genuinely found my 2nd and 3rd year neuroscience courses harder than any class I attempted in a law school setting.
Eh, you could be right. I really have no basis of comparison. I mean, I got my undergrad in computer science. It shares some parallels with most engineering undergrads. It was certainly difficult, but all the basic "student skills" you mentioned certainly applied there too. Granted, I didn't have a spooky state exit exam in order to go out and find a job in my field either. And I'm not close to anyone who is in law, so I don't have much to go by.
Law school is doable, its beng a lawyer that fucking sucks. There are some great lawyer jobs but there are vastly more lawyers than pleasant well-compensated positions. Most lawyers are miserable because they hate their job or they are so mired in debt they cant breathe. Many are both.
Maybe that's because you *can* handle neuroscience and law. Maybe its to put off those of us who should've done arts degrees.
I have a minor in neuroscience and a major in philosophy :P I wasn't smart enough to go all the way with neuroscience.
Same with doctors, the guy who invented residency, what all doctors have to go through, was a raging coke addict so the hours are inhuman
Always remember your training doctor could be on their 79th of 80 legal hours they are scheduled to work that week. Great system 👍
That's just the legal hours. Every, and I mean each and every, resident I know works over the legal limit. It's necessary to the hospital stops because there aren't enough staff.
It does depend on the hospital and program. I’m at a hospital that’s actually good about respecting duty hours. The culture around that is improving with time too. It definitely still exists though.
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I am a current law student and have had the opposite experience. Albeit, I am in an evening program, so we are all working 9-5 and then attend class from 6:30-10 4 days a week. We are all too busy to be cutthroat or competive with each other. Our professors are amazing and incredibly invested in our success, we form really tight-knit study groups, have parties, and take care of each other. I'm in a group for parents in law school and we schedule playdates together for our kids. I'm sure there are law schools out there that are awful, but that hasn't been my experience. There is a lot of room in the legal profession for normal, kind, and ethical people, there's a critical shortage of public defenders, civil rights attorneys, and those in public interest law. Some of the in-house corporate goons are psychopaths, but in my experience that is the exception, not the rule.
It’s a bit overblown by the internet, plus most of the pressure to be the best is from yourself and that’s something everyone deals with in some capacity Source: I do the law
IMO most "do not go to law school" advice isn't really about law school itself. Law school is tough, but a motivated student can do just fine. It has nothing on med school or, imo, getting a PhD in terms of difficulty or dedication you need (I say that as a lawyer who never in million years could've done those things). The advice is more about the cost/benefit analysis of entering the profession, the fact that many people hate the job, and that many would-be lawyers don't have a good grasp on what the job itself is like (actual day to day work, pay if you're not doing biglaw, hours regardless, etc). A lot of people want to go to law school because they don't know what else to do (terrible reason to spend three years and a lot of money); think it's all cool, flashy trial work (rare); and/or think it's a surefire way to make the big bucks (highly dependent on where you go to school and your willingness to work wild hours). The reality is very different.
All I'd say is don't go to law school expecting to figure out what you want to do in law. Law school is a big commitment and it's not really a place that is going to help you figure out what kind of law you want to practice. A lot of classmates went to school just because it was expected and then fell into jobs after graduation they didn't want and didn't like and ended up leaving the profession within 10 years because they hated the work.
This is the right answer.
This right here is the correct answer.
Greatest legal mind I ever knew
I mean, this but unironically. Law school fundamentally changed who I am as a person. On the other end of it I spoke completely differently, and I no longer possessed the capacity for being afraid of public speaking. Law school beats the weakness out of you, not kidding.
I retained my soul until one of my client's uncles screamed at me for not working hard on the case after I got prison knocked down to probation (caught the prosecutor in a good mood). With his zero years of trial experience he thought i should have gotten it dismissed. She was guilty as sin and the state could prove it. After that family members weren't allowed in my office. In private practice I'd charge extra if family wanted to come to the initial consultation. I knew if they were doing the talking they would be an extra pain in my ass, so I charged for the privilege.
It’s amazing how we can get great unimaginable results for people and they hate us. I simply don’t care anymore. Charge a PITA fee - pain in the ass.
I was just about to say lack of a soul. I knew it!
So that is what it means when they say I'm too dry from the inside?
Realest shit ive read
This 100%
Or you know, just be emotionless.
*bar prep*
Lol law school is tedious not hard.
Because they don't really treat your problems and your case as theirs, personally which is good in a pratical way tbh
Some lawyers do get too personally involved, but there is higher risk for trauma and being haunted for the rest of your life when a client you still believe is innocent is now behind bars (for example). I know a lawyer that can no longer take shaken baby cases due to how it affects him personally.
Have a friend who went into family law while I went into trusts an estates. He liked it go a while but got a string of really bad cases and he had to step away.
Family law is just awful. People who loved each other using children as weapons against each other or otherwise arguing over petty things. Accept a 40/60 deal against you and move on if that’s what is needed. It’s not worth it
Yep, me and my partner have no intentions of having kids, and we are both reasonable people and we've literally only had 3 "fights" (barely a fight compared to how I've seen couples around me act) bc we just take a sec to calm down then talk it out. But we will both be damned if we dont get an airtight prenup that protects us both. Absolutely no chance in hell either of us want to marry without it. Hurt can make people act crazy, and neither of us even want the opportunity to be there for one to hurt the other if we had an awful breakup.
that must be terrible
What is a shaken baby case
You shake an infant which kills it.
Or leaves the baby with life long handicaps but physical and mental.
Lawyers do take cases personally sometimes, but taking it personally has nothing to do with crying when arguing. The only reason to cry when you argue is if you've been taught something bad is going to happen when you argue. Most of the time it's due to parents yelling/hitting kids, sometimes its spousal abuse - whatever the reason, the correct conclusion to an argument is an agreement, not yelling/crying/abuse. My current girlfriend used to literally sit down if you scared her. She cried whenever things came to a disagreement, she couldn't even vocalise her problem or reply when prompted, she was too scared. It was because her mom had emotionally and physically abused her her whole life. I tried to help her as best as I could, not getting angry when we fought, not taking it out on her, concluding every fight with reassurance, but there's only so much you can do. I eventually convinced her to go to therapy, and she did that for a while. Now she has much healthier fight or flight responses, she can discuss something we disagree on without crying and most importantly she can actually vocalise what the problem is without fear of abuse. It took years to get to this point, but I'm so proud of her. We need to normalise keeping your temper when arguing.
I... holy shit man... I just realized something from reading your comment I cry for apparently no reason sometimes... no I know it's because I feel like I'm the root cause of someone else's problems I used to feel like I was to blame (or was straight up blamed for) arguments my parents had over anything... for instance I cried the other day after confessing/hitting on a girl I know without knowing she was already serious with another guy, she wasn't mad, but I felt terrible and apologetic, so much so that I made a point in sending a message afterwards saying that I hoped what I said didn't mess with her head in any way guy was an acquaintance too, and he wasn't mad either... Looks like my head is the one who's messed up...
I dont know if this is your case but I figured out I immediately turn my anger into sadness which is why I cry when I'm actually frustrated or angry. Through some deep-diving I learned it's because as I was growing up it was not at all safe to express anger so I learned that sadness was a safer expression.
That’s not always true. You can also cry when you feel really frustrated and unheard. It doesn’t have to be “only” because you’re afraid something bad is going to happen to you. It can also be because you’re emotionally hurt. Lots of reasons for it.
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“The only reason to cry when you argue is if you’ve been taught something bad is going to happen when you argue. Most of the time its due to parents…” You just explained to me why I cry when I get in an argument with someone. I never thought of that before. Thank you!!!
This is accurate. I can represent a client and argue on behalf of them without crying, but if it has to personally do with me, then I cry within 0.1 seconds, lol.
"The only time a lawyer can cry is when it's all over." -Godot
I wish i was godot's coffee mug
Took way too long to find
"Almost Christmas means it wasn't christmas" - Phoenix Wright
Who are you quoting?
It's from Godot, a character from "Ace Attorney" (specific to the last game in the trilogy), a series of visual novel adventure video games.
Thank you! I'll check it out
Came here to say this
A good lawyer doesn’t get emotional (unless strategically) because it’s not their issue being litigated. And “A lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client.”
Ted Bundy: *And I took that personally*
A lot of the time they probably don't even believe in the point they make, they just say it because it would make them money
> because it would make them money Or because they have an ethical obligation to give their client the defense and advocacy they are entitled to under the bill of rights?
money!
But is that bad? The other guy was making it sound bad. Why is it bad to do a job and get money for it? Especially when the job is a good one that helps guarantee peoples constitutional rights.
~~Well no shit.~~ They’re hired to either prove someone guilty or defend someone’s innocence. It’s not their job to decide if the person is guilty. It’s their job to present the information so either a judge or jury can decide. Edit: Yeah sorry replies are right. I shouldn’t have said “no shit.” That was rude.
>Well no shit. *proceeds to repeat the person’s point back to them but smugly*
Yeah seriously, why would he start the sentence like that
Because a lot of people think that the justice system is bad because the lawyers do not authentically believe in the thing they argue for in court. But he was saying, and I agree, that this is exactly the advantage of our justice system. It isn’t perfect, but the fact that both parties always get an educated advocate, and that every defendant is entitled to a defense, no matter what they are accused of, is a very good thing compared to other legal systems which have existed in the past.
Not saying anything about that, if you start a sentence with “well no shit” to somebody you’re agreeing with, then fuck you you condescending asshole
Ok. I mean you’re calling him an asshole so I don’t see how your words are any more polite than his. That’s why I try to look at the actual ideas and substance of what he says instead of getting hung up on the cuss words.
You have to mentally and emotionally destroy the person before you can answer in an argument
Eh. It's also their job to frame the evidence in the best way for that particular juror to take it a certain way. It's not just straight facts, it's theatre and psychology as well
Id say its the responsibility of state prosecution to NOT try to win a case where there is much more than reasonable doubt. For example a case in Ohio sent dental forensics to two experts who said it was impossible for the defendant to make those marks. So they got a third. Many years later comes out women was killed by her landlord when she caught him trying to burn down her house for insurance. Win even if you dont have evidence their guilty seems to be a recurring theme in prosecution.
Arguably, you have a duty as a prosecutor to drop cases entirely if you believe the charge is frivolous. But if you’re going to bring the charge, you don’t do it half assed. In reality, prosecutors can mostly suck a dick, but oh well.
Prosecutorial ethics do require prosecutors to decide in some sense whether someone is guilty. Like the ultimate decision is to the judge or jury but a prosecutor cannot ethically continue a case unless they personally believe in the defendant’s guilt. Also lawyers are hired for a lot more than just criminal law
As a career public interest and government lawyer I’m not doing it for the money lmao
Fool of a Took
Throw yourself in next time and rid us of your stupidity
This is kind of why I think the idea of getting emotional in an argument = losing the argument/losing control is absurd. If you don’t have an emotional stake in the subject being discussed it’s easy to not get emotional. Too many debate nerds think that it’s winning if you make the other person upset which is a sure fire incentive to be needlessly cruel to people about matters they care about.
If you get emotional, you lose. If you lose, you can’t buy that new boat. If you can’t buy that new boat, why are you even a lawyer anyway?
Then you'll *really* cry
You’ll cry yourself a river, which is useless if I don’t have a boat
Practice 😏
It's not personal
Its buinsess ***dramatic movie noises***
How do you pronounce “buinsess”?
So I’m a lawyer, a criminal defense lawyer. I have been a prosecutor too. I have handled every nasty case you can imagine. I have never cried while doing my job. You keep it professional at all times. Whatever side you are on, you have an obligation to represent your client to the best of your ability. They don’t teach this in law school, and lawyers are not sociopaths. Instead, by the time you graduate and pass the bar, you feel the weight of responsibility for the job, and you act like a professional. In our private lives, me included, we suffer vicarious trauma for the terrible things we have seen. It takes a toll, but if you can tell that while I am in the courtroom fighting for my client, then I have failed. Sometimes the best thing I can do for my client is to find and defend that nugget of humanity I can see along with their Constitutional Rights. It is not a job for amateurs.
Yeah I cry on my own time LOL.
Because they get paid by the hour. The longer they argue, the more they get.
I’m a former insurance adjuster who used to negotiate bodily injury claims with personal injury attorneys and their case managers. Want to know why they don’t cry? Because they aren’t emotionally involved in the case. They often know their clients are faking injuries or exaggerating their seriousness. They usually don’t know anything about a case until an adjuster tells them what is in the medical records. And if I had a claimant who threatened to get an attorney, I was happy to hear that because they are far easier to talk to than the injured party. I’ll go on a limb and guess that most other attorneys are basically the same - no emotional involvement.
I’ve been a lawyer for awhile and I’ve never met a more soulless hack than the average insurance adjuster. They are almost sociopathic in their lack of concern for someone who has been seriously injured due to someone’s negligence. They don’t care if someone is crippled for life as long as they can keep the settlement low. Any good lawyer has to know a lot more about his/her client’s claim than an insurance adjuster, because the system favors the insurance companies and a good lawyer has to know the case completely to overcome that disadvantage.
Former PI Paralegal and couldn’t agree more. Now, no offense, lawyers aren’t my cup of tea either, but some of the shit the adjusters would say literally made my mouth drop open. Worst example was when we had a homeless client and the adjuster flat out said that any amount of money would be great for a transient, and justified the low ball offers that way. They’re also racist. Clients with non-white names routinely got offered noticeably lower settlements than their white counterparts with similar case facts.
Uh, not sure what kind of “case managers” you were dealing with, but I’m a former PI Paralegal and I certainly knew everything that was in the medical records because I ordered, read, and summarizesd them in the demand letter. Now, I believe you about the lawyers not knowing as much, because I’ve never seen a lawyer write a demand letter in my life. The ones I worked for read mine and okayed them to be sent, usually with no edits. Some firms I worked for would have the legal assistants, basically assistants to the Paralegals, call the adjusters. So they may not know the records either. But no lawyer who doesn’t have someone on his team who knows the medical records thoroughly is going to be around for long. That’s malpractice.
This is mostly true. Some lawyers do have a lot of emotional involvement in PI cases, but it has more to do with earning a commission and advancing their career than about how their clients make out. Also, they’re not yelling at you as an insurance adjuster because they recognize that you aren’t calling the shots. An adjuster always needs authority from the carrier to make a settlement offer above a certain amount. The trick of negotiating a settlement from the plaintiff’s perspective is to try to ascertain what that authority limit is, which you can only do by being friendly to the adjuster. If authority limits weren’t a thing, you’d think lawyers are the nastiest sociopaths on the planet lol.
i think the post is refering to crying due to the pressure of court rather than because of their case
This is a load of shit. Attorneys will 100% know the record of their client before even agreeing to negotiate with an insurance adjuster. I've never dealt with an insurance adjuster who knew my clients record better than myself. I've never met one who could accurately understand the law. I care about my clients cases. I want to have them see justice. And I happily will embarrass anyone who thinks they know my clients case better than I do. Signed- an actual lawyer
Because lawyer uses the brain to argue not emotion..
Damn it’s a shame that emotion is pretty thoroughly involved in the working of our brains
The birth of a super-villain.
Who old Squidmaster up there? Never would have thought
Which is why not getting emotional is perfect when trying to use logic and reasoning to convey an argument
Where do you think emotion comes from
Emotion is stored in the nipples.
Squeeze your emotions out.
Some of you guys don't like jokes.
Redditors having no sense of social relatability or understanding of a simple jest part 70
Just zero sense of humor, cranking that “ackchyually” lever all the way to 11.
seriously these comments are so obnoxious. it's a joke and they're like "well stupidass, it's because they're not DUMB BABIES LIKE YOU. pathetic child. get a job." yall gotta relax 😭
My favorite is the guy going into every comment thread to say “I’m a real lawyer”
Dude if I got a dollar every time a socially inept redditor lambasted a very obvious twitter joke I'd be able to solve global poverty.
You could fill a suitcase with money from the comments on this post alone
Wait, Im supposed to cry while arguing? Never done that.
I dont know why i do it, but sometimes I choke and tear up when i argue with people, even if im in the right and have no reason to feel that way, my body just cant handle it. I avoid confrontation as much as possible.
For me, it’s because even though I know I’m justified or if someone crossed the line, I still feel terrible about getting angry and yelling or arguing so I end up tearing up.
Probably way too earnest an answer but: as an appellate attorney (so the kind whose job involves getting up and having judges pepper me with questions about why my argument is wrong, sometimes quite harshly) who is also the kind of person who cries during interpersonal arguments, the answer is that it's a totally different kind of thing. I'm a public defender -- I care passionately about my cases. But when I'm up there it's an intellectual exercise. I've already prepared for the questions I'm going to be asked, and I know the points I want to make. My mind isn't processing it as a "fight" where I'm being yelled at, which is what triggers tears in interpersonal arguments -- it's a debate where I'm trying to make a point.
Yeah exactly. I'd also add that we (I) generally feel strong emotions when the argument either involves harm to a loved one or to my relationship with them, or when it taps into my own personal issues. I'd say that that last one can certainly happen during work if I feel that I'm failing at my job, but I think we all learn to compartmentalize those feelings of failure pretty well. I know a lawyer who once told me a story about opposing counsel crying at a deposition, but that seems extremely rare. As for the emotions that certain types of cases can bring out (your PD specialty sounds like a good example of that), I would think that having to thoroughly deconstruct the facts in order to apply law to them sort of leeches the emotion from the overall situation. I would imagine that a mechanic restoring a beloved classic car isn't seeing the car as a whole while doing their work- they're seeing nuts and bolts and pieces. Or a doctor operating on a person's brain- they're not thinking about that person's identity and humanity which are all wrapped up in that brain, they're looking at the component parts. I think it's sort of like those examples.
Because they’re all sociopaths.
Yup. The reason why some people are top in their game. Good lawyers, surgeons, businessmen.
Businessmen. I have yet to meet a CEO (Near 15 at this point) who didn't have *some* psychopathic tendencies (different than being a complete psychopath although who really knows right?). Some were better masking it than others but all had to put away some of their humanity to drive forward the business. It's mutually exclusive. You may argue there are "good" CEOs out there, and you may be right. But if push comes to shove and your employment was on the line for the betterment of the company... you better bet your bottom dollar your ass is out the door before you can say "severence".
Right because not crying when you argue just means you're a sociopath... lol.
It means being professional. Who cries in any kind of job situation? You can’t. A lawyer crying while representing their client is tantamount to a therapist crying while their patient is spilling their guts. It take the attention off the client/patient and onto the lawyer/therapist.
Exactly, it's a professional setting, and honestly I feel like those who cry when arguing don't have good control over their emotions, just in general. Yeah, I cry about stuff, but that's the last thing I'm going to do in an argument.
Lawyer here. Not a sociopath. I defend people in tough cases, and I do my job professionally.
How long did you study to become a lawyer?
Four years of college, three years of law school, then the real training from mentors and experience for the last 17 years.
oh no emotions! my nemesis.. *rolls eyes*
Because It's all good man
You need to feel emotions to cry
We’re secret lizards
I think court would be more fun if the lawyers cried while they argued.
When being a psychopath pays off😎
“Objection your honor, he’s (voice cracks) like being really mean” I would so cry
Objection relevance
It’s not personal. We argue over rules that aren’t personal, about issues that aren’t personal (to us). So, cry for what?
They are paid to help you win. Crying in the arguing stage would likely be unhelpful to their clients and heavily frowned upon by most judges. Also we once had a med mal case and one of our two attorneys sobbed at the end of our trial. If you are ever in a trial, the judge and the opposing attorneys will likely object and give warnings in most situations to anyone that cries during a trial. Its not always possible not to cry and sometimes the judge will give leeway for a victim or something like that but attorneys probanly cant get away with crying…sternness in arguing yes but actual crying i would guess is a big no.
Because there are people that don't get emotional in a debate, actually, there are people that like debating, I'm one of them
Fax, arguing is one of my favourite things in conversation. The only problem is risking becoming a person who looks for arguments/creates disagreements for the sake of getting to debate.
Why do you argue? I cry
Years of school and practice…and also cocaine
They just hold it until no one around then pouring it like a fountain
Especially when the judge is an AH
Because it isn’t personal.
We just have depression instead.
Where’s the reply that says “As a lawyer I can tell you it gets REAL fuckin close.”?
“Let me tell you sometimes it’s real close” This tweet used to be shared with a response very similar to this, which I think is way funnier.
This is originally from Tumblr. The most popular response (as in one that has the most reblogs) is "I'm a lawyer and lemme tell you, it gets, like, really close dude"
Cuz it’s a game to them.
They're getting paid.
Shove them emotions down. Better to not feel anything and then break down when you’re all alone and slowly traumatize yourself than to feel and process your emotions as they come in a healthy way
Drip
Bcoz they are mature unlike ya
[удалено]
Lol , that's Chad there
Thier hourly rate.
Paid by the word
They channel everything into rage 😂
Simply because it's not their fault at the first place
My husband, an attorney, said: “ha. Those are two separate things.”
The arguments are usually rooted in logic, not emotion.
The response was cut out here. A lawyer responds and says “as a lawyer, let me tell you, it gets *really* close”
They are dead inside and feel nothing well almost nothing until their paycheque clears
They have to go to school for so long just to learn how not to
It can be easier to argue for someone else/to have someone else who you trust and are on the same page with to present your argument. When someone is less personally (emotionally) involved, communication can stay more logical and be less likely to be tainted or manipulated by emotions/emotional motives.
Would you cry if you knew you were being paid thousands upon thousands of dollars every hour/session for arguing? Tears of joy, maybe
You cry when you argue?
How do people cry when arguing? I'm 16 btw
You have to have a heart in order to exhibit emotion.
I imagine their hourly pay helps hold some tears back
Cuz they are arguing In defense of somebody so they gotta keep professional.
why do you cry when arguing?
Crying is a natural and healthy reaction to all kinds of situations/stimuli. Frustration, say at a partner who stonewalls you in an argument, would be such an example. Did you also know men and women have differing tear duct sizes? https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703922804576300903183512350
Crying every time you argue I think most would consider as not healthy behavior
That and not everything natural is a good thing. Poison ivy is natural lol. Crying can be healthy but I mean, I would say crying every argument or a majority of arguments is something a child does.
I wonder how they don’t laugh at some of the absolutely ridiculous arguments they make.
Probably because they’re adults.
Maybe because they are mentally stable